Part 1 - Intro and sections 1-4 of Top 10 - th-cam.com/video/5C7143wIc-M/w-d-xo.html Part 2 - Sections 5-10 of Top 10 - th-cam.com/video/G6ojo1xliT4/w-d-xo.html *CORRECTION:* - at 2m21s, the left spin showed should be gearing outside (right) spin instead. *Topics Covered in Part 1:* Introduction to Throw [0:00] ---- cut-induced throw (CIT) [0:03] ---- spin-induced throw (SIT) [0:32] 1. No Throw with Gearing Outside Spin [1:52] ---- example [2:35] ---- should you use gearing outside spin on every shot? [3:06] 2. Throw Can Often be Ignored [3:42] ---- example [4:07] 3. Aim Thinner to Account for CIT [5:00] ---- example [5:31] 4. Shots with the Most Throw [6:11] ---- slow-roll shot and alternatives [6:17] ---- spin shots [8:34] Wrap-Up [9:26] *Supporting Resources:* - purchase a Dr. Dave’s instructional product: drdavebilliards.com/ - show your support to Dr. Dave by clicking on the “Donation” button near the bottom of this page: billiards.colostate.edu/ - System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS): drdavebilliards.com/videos/saws/ - throw tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/ - throw FAQ page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/ - gearing outside spin: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/ - cling/skid/kick: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/cling/ - small-gag combos: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/combination/small-gap/ - squirt, swerve, and throw effects summary: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/effects/#list - aim compensation when using sidespin: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/compensation/ *Subscribe to Dr. Dave's TH-cam channel (and be sure to turn on bell notifications):* th-cam.com/users/DrDaveBilliards
And there I was: always thinking that my aiming is poor for longer shots when in reality I wasn't compensating for throw! An eye opening video. Thanks so much! With some practice and experimentation I hope my long shots will get better.
I apologize for not being a subscriber sooner. Didn't realize I wasn't since I was still getting recommendations. But when you mentioned the stat in another video about a lot of your viewers not being subscribers, I looked and was not. You should keep mentioning that to people. You've taught me a lot and my friends and I used to say "don't be a jerk" a lot. Not so much any more though, with good reason, because it doesn't happen very much any more lol. Thank you, sir!
Great videos. Been playing for years just off of what I learned at the table but got frustrated that I couldn't close off enough games. I thought I was decent at cutting the ball but I had no concept of throw. What a game that you can play for so long and not know all the fundamentals.
For many (if not most shots), you don't need to use or worry about throw, but it does help to know when it is important. For a good summary of the things you really need to know about throw, see the list at the bottom of the page here: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
Your system for aiming with side spin, and understanding throw videos have greatly improved my gameplay!! I've tried teaching this to my friend a few times in the past and he didnt want to hear it lol.. Now that I beat him all the time, he asked me to explain this "new system of mine" to him.. And he too has improved greatly.. Thanks for the awesome vids! Keep up the awesome content!
Thank you for this lesson. Similarly to what most have been saying, I have been playing pool for ages and just learned about this concept. Much love from Manila!
Perfect DrDave He he he.. thats why sometime I use the ghostball for aiming. Aiming was perfecf but I still missed the shot. This is the reason, thank you so much! 👌🏻💕
I truly believe that this is the hardest part of learning pool, I been trying to work on this and still having problem, GIR I am okay. But CIT is kicking my a$$, It must be something to do with speed control , I'm ether hitter to hard or to softer. Thanks Dave for all your hard work, and great lesson.
You're welcome, and thank you. BTW, for a good summary of everything you need to know about throw in your game, see the list at the bottom of the page here: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
... assuming you are good at judging the gearing amount of spin and good at compensating your aim for CB deflection over a wide range of shot speeds and distances.
This is the best pool lesson I've ever seen, going to watch it several times, no wonder i miss shots thinking it was just poor aim, so does dead center cue ball hit create 0 throw but see gear outside spin is the safest? you may have answered that but will watch again, Thanks Doc
Watch both videos (Part 1 and Part 2) multiple times. They cover all important throw effects. And if you still want more, see the links in the video description above.
Good content. For shots where I know there will be a good amount of C.I.T. I simply aim for the far side of the pocket (opposite side of the throw direction). Tends to send the ball straight in the pocket.
@@DrDaveBilliards Perhaps people think that throw isn't such an important aspect in the game, and they don't understand that throw is making a difference between just an average player and a semi-pro, or pro, because it can have so much effect on your positional play.
@@037lazar And if somebody doesn't aim accurately and consistently, and doesn't have a good stroke, throw is probably the last thing they should be thinking about anyway.
You're welcome. This is something I've wanted to do for a long time. I kept putting it off because I knew how much time and work it would take. I was right, but I think it was time and work well spent.
Good day, Dr. Dave! Thank you for posting educational videos about pool. I really improved a lot. I hope you can make a detail video about masse shots because I'm still confused on how to judge a masse shot and where to hit the cue ball. Anyways, great videos!
I don't know how I compensated for all this without knowing about it years ago, but I no that was why I could only get so good,, I needed to work all this out.
The only really important stuff you really know about throw (or have a good intuitive feel) are summarized at the bottom of the page here: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/ Enjoy!
Great video! I really wish I would've seen this video before last weekend. I lost a hill-hill match with a miss on the 8. It was almost exactly the shot you showed in this video. I slow rolled it and missed the same way you show in the video at around 7 min.
I actually tried my best to stick to just useful pool info with practical examples, but sometimes I can’t help myself and need to explain the understanding behind stuff.
It was observational and instructional. However "scientific" is not a term I would use for him as he so often centers more on the accepted sport terminology as opposed to explaining the actual physics. It is not engineering if it lacks full explanation. Simply iterating the ball paths is merely observational. Giving the reasons and solutions is nice, but an actual, true physics analysis would also be helpful... Particularly coming from a "Doctor".
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight For you and others who might be interested, I have a complete math and physics-based analysis of throw here: billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-14.pdf And analysis for other aspects of throw and many other pool physics topics can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/technical-proof/
@@DrDaveBilliards Looks to me like some factors are missing. There are effects imparted by the cloth. Also, I have done throw shots where I loft the cue ball and strike the object ball mid-air above center. I see what is up here. You are calling that offset throw, whereas my feeling was that "throw" was when two balls are frozen off angle and one corrects the angle using 'throw'. Maybe I just need to broaden my use of the term.
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight "Throw" is a well-accepted term in the pool world. FYI, if you ever doubt the definition of a term, I have a very thorough glossary of well-accepted definitions here: billiards.colostate.edu/glossary/ FYI, cloth interaction does not affect throw, per the answer to the 2nd-to-last question here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/answers/ Changing the cut angle by jumping into a ball is a totally unrelated effect. See: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/jump/over-cut/ For many explanations, demonstrations, and analysis of various throw effects, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/ Enjoy!
The main throw i have problems with is my mond being thrown from my x not shpwing up on custody visit days. Throws my mind com0metely outta whack then i pmay pool to try to get my mind off it but play terrible from a thrown mind and get more mad. Heeeeelp docmy mind is thrown and i cant get out!!!!!! Seriously tho ur vids help my soul. When i get away from these lawyer bills i will def be buying some stuff from you for my little girl to learn as she grows. She is 4 and i bought her a tiny play pool table and she said ddady i already know how to play pool. Sinve she was 2 i would hold her up to the edge of various pool tables n let her hit the ball. I havent seen her but 6 times in a year but im having her this summer and were gonna play every day at my apartment pool table. When she says daddy wow your so good i will say u can thank dr. Dave. Hahaha seriously thx for the vids tho. Ive learned so much. Once my mind is thrown back in order once i get my angel back that was stolen from me i be running out way more often. Doctor daaaaaaaavvvveee maaannnnnnnn. Grape ape grape ape
Hi Dave, with the shot at 8.40 I take it the CIT, sending the CB to the right, is not strong enough to counter the SIT, which sends the ball to the left? Does this happen often when they are in conflict? Any tips on who wins generally? Is SIT the big daddy? :)
See the answers to common throw questions here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/answers/ especially the "Do CIT and SIT add or subtract as independent factors?" question. See also the videos and info here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/ Enjoy!
Dr. Dave steve from Seattle, let’s try my question again. If I have a 13 mm tip and you have a 12mm tip let’s say we’re both shooting a 30 degree spot shot, now I know we’re suppose to split the tip on the edge of the object ball, but me with a 13 mm tip would I need to aim a little thinner or thicker than you? Maybe I have to aim for a 3/4 or 5/8 I don’t know, or would we both aim a the same spot! Thanks
I don't see how the question is any different, and my answer is still the same. If you are hitting a 30-degree cut shot (1/2-ball hit) with no sidespin, the center of the tip is aimed through the center of the CB at the edge of the OB (assuming you aren't adjusting for cut-induced throw), regardless of the size of the tip.
One question please, Dr Dave. You said both the draw and the relatively faster speed can reduce the throw effect. I suppose a faster speed means a shorter touching time which causes a lighter throw effect. But for the draw, what's the physical explanation?
For explanations of both the speed and top/bottom spin effects, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/speed-effects/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/draw-follow/ Enjoy!
Dave! Hope all is healthy and well! Question: I recently have improved my game (accuracy, positional play, speed control, etc) to a point where I want to improve my positional game by adding spin (particularly for 9 ball). Lately, all my practice with spin has made forget how to shoot accurately and use good cue movement. Yesterday I went to the pool hall and had to revisit my fundamentals. It feels like I took 1step forward and 2 steps back. What is your input?
Here's a good place to start: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/sidespin/ and then explore everything here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-ball-control/
Dr Dave, i also improved on my game especially the placement of the cue ball after the shot, the speed control. I was able to beat my friend 9 games to his 4. 😁Thank You so much!
Is the "faster speed and backspin/topspin" (4:40) to reduce throw because some of that spin is transferred to the OB and breaks initial friction between OB and the cloth? I'm assuming the cloth friction is the reason CB-OB friction is translated as throw. Or because the backspin puts initial roll on the OB creating initial friction down the correct shot line? If so, not sure why top spin would work, except the hard speed as you mentioned.
This might be a silly question, but I'll throw it out there anyway... Might old/well used balls experience greater throw than new ones? I play snooker & English billiards. The snooker balls I use seem well worn. The billiards balls are effectively new. I am not sure if they are the exact same size, but the two sets of balls seem quite different to play with. The new ones seem to 'slide' a lot more, making me think the old ones might be rougher surfaced and thus possibly more prone to throw (and transferred spin)?
I've done some tests on this, and throw seems fairly consistent with worn balls. Although ball cleanliness is a totally different matter. For more info and demos, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/ball/cleaning/
@@DrDaveBilliards thank you very much! I hadn't thought of dirt separately to wear, but it makes sense. I know chalk on a cushion can radically alter ball behavior, so it stands to reason that transferred chalk on balls might have an effect. Checking out link now...
I use the System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS) for all sidespin shots. It uses combinations of BHE and FHE. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/ Enjoy!
If not using outside spin, a slight over cut is required to compensate for CIT. For more info, see the list and links at the bottom of the page here: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
I'm glad to hear it. FYI, I already have over 400 hundred videos on TH-cam, so check out some of my other stuff. The "Top 10" playlist is a good place to start: th-cam.com/play/PLH9d4KFY28XtrkjqZMKZc3uB4Y5sWCjW6.html
DrDaveBilliards. I kept getting the opposite effect to expected when using spin. Eventually I worked out this is because my cue ball is squirting in the opposite direction of the spin, e.g. if I use right English, then the cue ball is squirting to the left which is causing the object ball to go to the right. This effect is larger than the SIT or CIT effect. Talking to other people, a lot of people have a similar experience. What do you think is causing so much squirt on the cue ball?
This is normal. Before you can be effective at compensating for throw, you first need to be good a compensating for CB deflection (the combined effects of squirt and swerve). For help with this, see the videos and other info here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/effects/ and here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/compensation/ Enjoy, and good luck with your game!
FYI, I adjust my aim for CB deflection separately from the thin/thick adjustment for throw, using the System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS): billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/saws/ SAWS works for any cue and any bridge length.
I've been playing for 22 years. I think I shoot every damn shot with throw 🤷🏾♂️. I use that jab stroke, and just feather a little side on each and every shot. I just know how much to hit it now. I don't even "aim" per se... I just look at how steep the cut is and add side accordingly. My cue ball often comes to rest and still has lots of side spin on it 🤗, my son calls it "loading time" 😝
@@DrDaveBilliards yes yes, I know it can mess you up... 🤷🏾♂️ But it's so fun to make that cue ball glide across the rug❤️ My biggest issue is that I used to spin so often that when I don't is when I screw up. Also my mental game is a bugger. As soon as there are stakes, I fail. Very frustrating. My game is on fire until I'm tested. Then I over think and goes to shit.
At 2:17 it looks like the diagram is showing outside spin and achieving no wobble, but the diagrams at 2:22 and 2:26 looks like the CB is struck with inside spin for no wobble as well, am I confused?
Thank you for letting me know about the spin diagram error. I just added the following "CORRECTION" to the video description and pinned comment: - at 2m21s, the left spin showed should be gearing outside (right) spin instead.
Make sure you subscribe and turn on notifications.. Doctors Orders 😉 by the way. Love the vids Doc, i have been watching your videos for a long time now and have drastically improved my game to the point of me being the #1 player in my division. As well as i have passed on your knowledge to my teammates and we have become #1 in our division as a team. So huge thank you to your precise guidance
You can ignore throw on most shots (most angles and speeds). The shot types (angles and speeds included) where you can't ignore throw are summarized at the bottom of the page here: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
I don’t think he shoots wobbly at all ... his final stroke is almost always perfect. And I certainly don’t think his aiming is unpredictable. Efren is the GOAT.
full sender The only players i have ever seen that shot wobbly and unpredictably were drinking. To be honest your question is insulting. How could one of the greatest players to ever play the game a man many think is the greatest player of all time shoot wobbly and or unpredictably. Please full sender stop drinking before watching billiards.
@@mikeserrano734he has a pure confident stroke, the mechanics before he hits the ball mean nothing. The only one that matters is the only that connects. And when he does it's straight and smooth and with follow thru.
@@DrDaveBilliards it’s day 3 straight watching your videos, now I feel like I have done my PHD in pool physics…..anyway ur videos are gold. I ve been a long time subscriber. Again coming back to ur videos to earn my PHD.
@@battlefieldclips7013 After you think you are done with your "PhD" of pool physics understanding, try to achieve a "Doctorate of Pool" (DP) for a solid level of play: billiarduniversity.org/testing/diploma/ This is a real thing.
"gearing"? Did you come up with that term or the rest of the gamblers? The effect is called "coefficient of friction", and the moment of contact transfers some of the inertial elements of the striking ball into the struck ball. No need to say "cue" or "object" ball, because it happens in every ball collision. Since there are no "teeth" on round balls, I find this choice of terms silly, at best. I hope it has not been in use throughout the sport. But I put nothing past y'all. I am into the physics of the shot. Not winning any game or anything. I am about the shot. I think that pool players have come up with these terms and most of them suck The drunken players AND their terms). We need to think about young kids coming into this thing and teaching them the gambler mentality claim to be pro terms is pretty lame to me. There are English terms and terms from here in the US that are pretty lame in my view. I remember "follow" and "draw", but from you guys, we get stupid, now commonly used terms like "screw back". Hard to revitalize a sport that requires getting kids interested with weird terms floating around everywhere. Someone should write up a glossary of the terms used and their origins in the sport and whether or not they actually sound like a term we should continue to make use of or deem as "Archaic". "Gearing spin" spin just lame to me. "Spin induced throw" and "spin induced throw correction" sound better. Also, ANY throw can also be corrected by altering one's contact point, thereby changing the "tangency angle" the throw is induced against, resulting in a "corrected" shot.
With "gearing outside spin," there is no friction whatsoever because the CB is not sliding on the OB ... it is rolling (unless there is topspin or bottom spin with the side, in which there is friction acting down or up, but not sideways). Maybe instead of "gear outside spin" (which is a generally accepted phrase in pool), we could use "non-throwing outside spin."
@@DrDaveBilliards Even though you think they are smooth and hard, when two billiard balls collide, there is most certainly friction, regardless of applied spin condition. I have no idea how you can say that while making a video about throw. Throw depends 100% on the friction between the balls. Now, you may have misinterpreted what I meant thinking about the cloth or something, but if you think there "is no friction" between the balls, you need to get into a (remedial) High School or College physics course. When two frozen, offset balls are struck so as to 'throw' the ball at another angle , the collision friction is what the mechanism is that allows it to happen. There is a tiny moment in every ball collision. There is a "torque arm" presented whenever the ball collision is not right on the same axis as the ball travel. It is typically very small, but gets greater as shot velocity increases. Pool balls are elastic, not static. There is ALWAYS a compression between them and it is governed by their modulus of elasticity and the resultant emphasis depends on their coefficient of friction. This can be easily demonstrated by using rubber balls and glass balls and billiard balls. On the 2-D realm of the table surface, the rubber is VERY "grippy". The glass is very "bouncey". The billiard balls are not as hard as is Ivory or glass, but the medium was chosen because it DOES have a little bit of give to it. That give imparts spin between the balls, specifically because it has a coefficient of friction which is enough to give similar play as that of ivory. They are slightly more elastic than Ivory, however, but not much. Ivory is what the design engineers were attempting to emulate when they stopped using Ivory.
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight When the CB hits a single OB with gearing outside spin (with no top or bottom spin), there is no relative sliding motion between the ball surfaces during contact. Therefore, there is absolutely no friction force or throw. That is clearly demonstrated with the gearing outside spin examples in the videos (Part 1 and Part 2), where the stripe remains vertical after the hit. Regardless of how small (even 0) or large the coefficient of friction is between the balls, the OB would still head in the same direction (along the "line of centers") with gearing outside spin. Watch the videos again with this in mind.
@@DrDaveBilliards What you refer to is 'cancelling spin'. What occurs is the creation of a small torque arm in the direction which cancels the natural torque arm which occurs with a straight, end over end roll and ball strike. I never made a negative critique of your videos, dude. I merely referred to the monikers used and incomplete physics involved. The video is about throw, so there is no need to go over the non-throw method I suppose. The shots can be made easily with straight center ball stroke IF the contact point is chosen properly to successfully compensate for the offset. It is simply easier to set up and use a small torque vector (your preciously named spin)allowing the ball tb be struck without angular compensation. So both methods work. Strike point angular compensation, which comes with experience, or spin based compensation, which in may cases the pros speak against. They say that any time one can use center ball stroke, one should. As an advanced player, I disagree and feel that a player should try to learn the full gamut of the ball to ball interplay spectrum, but should start out in the less spin compensated manner. The main issue with cuts is that on a 2 square table, which pool is, we must watch out for and compensate against a scratch outcome in a lot of shots. So in many cases, not only is your 'gear torque' needed, but a little follow or draw might be in order as well to keep it from finding a pocket after your initial object ball strike. Other elements are the friction of the ball to the cloth and the friction on the nose of the rail. I do not need to watch the video again. I know what is taking place. I have been shooting since Woodstock. Started covering tables only a couple years later. It has nothing to do with the gambler tourney crowd lingo so many use. I have been a purist my whole life. I use physics terms. This *WAS* a game of kings and nobles. They didn't need to gamble. I think my game play (read technical shooting skill) as well as my explanations of it would impress you. I am into the shot. Not the games. Been shooting banks for years now and shoot off entire racks. Into 2 and 3 and 4 rail shots. The one and two railers are easy... like candy. I am probably faster than "Machine Gun Kelley" was. I wish I could send you a video.
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight Figured out four rail bank shots and gearing but can't fufufufigure out how to post a video on youtube...did they teach you about trolls at Woodstock? Maybe you were taking the wrong drugs
@ 5:24 You deny any friction talking to me, then you use the term "spin transfer" here. (Bugs Bunny voice inflection) "Ehhh... what's up wit dat, Doc?" Some missing physics there. It ain't just clickety clack. Some "things" take place in that microsecond of contact. Obviously... you just said so. Some things I am not getting the sense that you got the sense of across the gamut. I hope you survive the pandemic, because I'd love to come down there and show you a few things that exist outside the 'normal' shot realm. I spent decades gathering skill and data and info regarding the fringes of ballplay. I shoot hard when the shot calls for it and soft when folks expect I'll shoot hard. There is a whole world on that playfield surface in the realm of what happens when a spin vector is introduced into a shot and is used to 'tractor" the cue ball path or the object ball path. It is 'throw'. I regularly shoot bank shots that are either a double kiss to anyone else, or unmakable because of a blocking obstacle. I can shoot straight into the rail and glance off it on a 40 degree angle straight for the side pocket. I shoot out to my left or right and hit the end rail and have it reverse back to me on the same angle I shot it out at. The word for today is "Torque arm". Momentary contact is not as momentary as one might think. Spin transfer is real.
Friction, throw, and spin transfer occur on every shot except when there is "gearing outside spin" (where there is no sliding during contact). FYI, I have a PhD in mechanical engineering and taught physics and dynamics related stuff for 30 years. Have you looked at my analysis stuff yet? You might also check out the resources available via the links in the video description. I have "done my homework" when it comes to throw. I don't get the sense you have.
@@DrDaveBilliards You say that as you ignore that it cancels the torque arm that causes the shot fail offset, so that "gearing spin" as you decided to refer to it as is spinning such that the moment of contact results in zero imparted spin. So yeah, for that shot, when successful, the resultant side motion is completely cancelled. So "gearing" is a misnomer, ehh? Because it does not tractor against the ball at the moment of contact. Oh and I knew you were degreed. I am just not sure you guys got all of the observations down yet. Maybe for 2-D slow shot pool. When one shoots at the fringes in the 3-D pool realm, with hard shots and hard throws, etc. and tractors off rail edges, hopping banks, etc., one carries the FOOL gamut of contact ranges. :-) Every time folks watch me shoot they say things like "I didn't know that could be done..." When I do not have a job, every time I interview with an engineer, I get hired. I guess I just have problems with weird terms like "swerve" and "screw back", etc. Neither sound like good choices in such a formal sport. "Throw" conversely... does sound right. I salute you and your degree(s), I simply think that there may be some missing factors. I guess it comes from watching masters play on 12 foot tables with 2" balls and narrow, rounded pockets, and stroke balls in firmly at steep cut angles like they are candy on 10' long ball traverses. "my homework" is 49 years of table play and elders being angry because they can't figure out how I did one shot or another. After 35 years, I started concentrating on bank shots, and success requires good knowledge of throw in so many cases. For the last ten years, I've been shooting without touching the table. Been doing that a while and even include break shots. I possess FOOL mastery of 7 foot bat tables, and when I get exuberant balls start hopping around and shots I refer to as "non-repeatables" start happening. I really wish I had done some video over the years. I am not the guy in the tournaments. I am the guy doing exhibition shots during the commercials between their games. Nothing staged either. Fantastic shots just happen. I still want to come down there after "the cloud" blows through, if I survive and show you some things. A whole lot happens when that stick angle raises up. Learning to control it is the heart of the small portion of that realm which you address. My shots will cause you to break out the high speed camera just to see where I cue the ball at. I do not do 'practice strokes'... ever. Tied up at the rail edge, I switch to left handed. Odd thing... might want to involve the neuro guys... when I switch to left handed, my brain "sees" the shot angle more precisely, especially on full table length banks. It's all about confidence. I really do want to meet you and you would then want to work with me, and I would like to bring the neural guys in too. Brain scan me while I traipse around the table popping shots and perfect cue ball rolls like candy. I spent 7 years in drafting classes way back in the T-square days and did a lot of my personal table design drawings there. I know nearly all of the BCA table specs by heart and can spot an out of spec table brand as soon as I walk up on it. I have the same fog-O-graphic memory for the US flag. If it is off, I can see it. I knew what 10,000th inch tolerances were way back in the late sixties, before I was even ten years old. My father worked at Cincinnati Milacron, so I have known about precision fits and tolerances for decades. Built my first 427 rat motor in '71 Though my main skill is in electronics. I have worked on projects that the result of which went up on Space Shuttle experiments. I am no dummy, by any stretch.
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight I din't invent the "gearing outside spin" phrase. It is standard. I agree that the gear analogy isn't perfect because gears under load have tangential force and torque. However, the way gears mesh, without any tangential sliding, is a good metaphor.
@@DrDaveBilliards Could have said "grinding wheel spin" in that case. Here I am having a problem with it, and you now calling it a good metaphor *still*. I can shoot table length 'stun' shots and stop shots and set the cue ball right there, or move it after some inches away, back, right or left, and that form of cancellation has never struck me that way. You'd be amazed at what firm stroke elevated stick shots can do (or maybe not). Melling was a master.
Part 1 - Intro and sections 1-4 of Top 10 - th-cam.com/video/5C7143wIc-M/w-d-xo.html
Part 2 - Sections 5-10 of Top 10 - th-cam.com/video/G6ojo1xliT4/w-d-xo.html
*CORRECTION:*
- at 2m21s, the left spin showed should be gearing outside (right) spin instead.
*Topics Covered in Part 1:*
Introduction to Throw [0:00]
---- cut-induced throw (CIT) [0:03]
---- spin-induced throw (SIT) [0:32]
1. No Throw with Gearing Outside Spin [1:52]
---- example [2:35]
---- should you use gearing outside spin on every shot? [3:06]
2. Throw Can Often be Ignored [3:42]
---- example [4:07]
3. Aim Thinner to Account for CIT [5:00]
---- example [5:31]
4. Shots with the Most Throw [6:11]
---- slow-roll shot and alternatives [6:17]
---- spin shots [8:34]
Wrap-Up [9:26]
*Supporting Resources:*
- purchase a Dr. Dave’s instructional product: drdavebilliards.com/
- show your support to Dr. Dave by clicking on the “Donation” button near the bottom of this page: billiards.colostate.edu/
- System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS): drdavebilliards.com/videos/saws/
- throw tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
- throw FAQ page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/
- gearing outside spin: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/
- cling/skid/kick: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/cling/
- small-gag combos: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/combination/small-gap/
- squirt, swerve, and throw effects summary: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/effects/#list
- aim compensation when using sidespin: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/compensation/
*Subscribe to Dr. Dave's TH-cam channel (and be sure to turn on bell notifications):*
th-cam.com/users/DrDaveBilliards
And there I was: always thinking that my aiming is poor for longer shots when in reality I wasn't compensating for throw!
An eye opening video. Thanks so much!
With some practice and experimentation I hope my long shots will get better.
I’m glad you found it helpful. Be sure to check out Part 2 also:
th-cam.com/video/G6ojo1xliT4/w-d-xo.html
I apologize for not being a subscriber sooner. Didn't realize I wasn't since I was still getting recommendations. But when you mentioned the stat in another video about a lot of your viewers not being subscribers, I looked and was not. You should keep mentioning that to people. You've taught me a lot and my friends and I used to say "don't be a jerk" a lot. Not so much any more though, with good reason, because it doesn't happen very much any more lol. Thank you, sir!
Don't be a jerk ... subscribe now! :)
Great videos. Been playing for years just off of what I learned at the table but got frustrated that I couldn't close off enough games. I thought I was decent at cutting the ball but I had no concept of throw. What a game that you can play for so long and not know all the fundamentals.
For many (if not most shots), you don't need to use or worry about throw, but it does help to know when it is important. For a good summary of the things you really need to know about throw, see the list at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
Your system for aiming with side spin, and understanding throw videos have greatly improved my gameplay!! I've tried teaching this to my friend a few times in the past and he didnt want to hear it lol.. Now that I beat him all the time, he asked me to explain this "new system of mine" to him.. And he too has improved greatly.. Thanks for the awesome vids! Keep up the awesome content!
I'm glad to hear it. You're welcome. And thank you!
Teach me please because all this is doing is making me worried that pool is too complicated i mean theres so many things to think about nos
Thank you for this lesson. Similarly to what most have been saying, I have been playing pool for ages and just learned about this concept. Much love from Manila!
You’re welcome. I’m glad you learned something. Check out Part 2 also:
th-cam.com/video/G6ojo1xliT4/w-d-xo.html
Thanks a lot for these videos. It helps me tremendously and it is the best educational material on the internet. ♥️
You're welcome ... and thank you. I'm glad you like my stuff.
Perfect DrDave He he he.. thats why sometime I use the ghostball for aiming. Aiming was perfecf but I still missed the shot. This is the reason, thank you so much! 👌🏻💕
I'm glad you found it helpful.
I truly believe that this is the hardest part of learning pool, I been trying to work on this and still having problem, GIR I am okay. But CIT is kicking my a$$, It must be something to do with speed control , I'm ether hitter to hard or to softer. Thanks Dave for all your hard work, and great lesson.
You're welcome, and thank you. BTW, for a good summary of everything you need to know about throw in your game, see the list at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
Thank you Dr Dave . My cut shots using gearing outside spin are almost perfect shot .This is a very high percentage shot to pocket the ball.
... assuming you are good at judging the gearing amount of spin and good at compensating your aim for CB deflection over a wide range of shot speeds and distances.
This is the best pool lesson I've ever seen, going to watch it several times, no wonder i miss shots thinking it was just poor aim, so does dead center cue ball hit create 0 throw but see gear outside spin is the safest? you may have answered that but will watch again, Thanks Doc
Watch both videos (Part 1 and Part 2) multiple times. They cover all important throw effects. And if you still want more, see the links in the video description above.
This video gives the answer that I sometimes make: “how did I miss that”
Now you know. ... mic drop ...
Good content. For shots where I know there will be a good amount of C.I.T. I simply aim for the far side of the pocket (opposite side of the throw direction). Tends to send the ball straight in the pocket.
That’s certainly better than nothing, but with long shots or tight pockets you might need to adjust more accurately.
Finally, I was waiting for so long for this. Thank you very much!
I'm glad you like it. I am surprised these throw videos (part 1 and part 2) are not getting more views.
@@DrDaveBilliards Perhaps people think that throw isn't such an important aspect in the game, and they don't understand that throw is making a difference between just an average player and a semi-pro, or pro, because it can have so much effect on your positional play.
@@037lazar And if somebody doesn't aim accurately and consistently, and doesn't have a good stroke, throw is probably the last thing they should be thinking about anyway.
Awesome! Thank you for honoring my request ;) :D
You're welcome. This is something I've wanted to do for a long time. I kept putting it off because I knew how much time and work it would take. I was right, but I think it was time and work well spent.
thank you Doctor Dave!
You're welcome!
Good day, Dr. Dave! Thank you for posting educational videos about pool. I really improved a lot. I hope you can make a detail video about masse shots because I'm still confused on how to judge a masse shot and where to hit the cue ball. Anyways, great videos!
I already have a good video on that topic along with other useful info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/masse/aiming/
Check it out.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thank you :)
Another great video Dr Dave...
Thanks. Be sure to check out "Part 2" also:
th-cam.com/video/G6ojo1xliT4/w-d-xo.html
Enjoy!
I don't know how I compensated for all this without knowing about it years ago, but I no that was why I could only get so good,, I needed to work all this out.
The only really important stuff you really know about throw (or have a good intuitive feel) are summarized at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
Enjoy!
Great video! I really wish I would've seen this video before last weekend. I lost a hill-hill match with a miss on the 8. It was almost exactly the shot you showed in this video. I slow rolled it and missed the same way you show in the video at around 7 min.
Even top players miss shots at times due to throw, so don’t feel bad.
The importance of soft stun is vital for my game. For me it is about keeping the game simple when possible. Thanks
You must be good at compensating for throw when necessary. BTW, I agree that the less you move the CB, the less chance you have for position errors.
Dr Dave thanks for the scientific, engineering point of view in pool. 🙏
I actually tried my best to stick to just useful pool info with practical examples, but sometimes I can’t help myself and need to explain the understanding behind stuff.
It was observational and instructional. However "scientific" is not a term I would use for him as he so often centers more on the accepted sport terminology as opposed to explaining the actual physics. It is not engineering if it lacks full explanation. Simply iterating the ball paths is merely observational. Giving the reasons and solutions is nice, but an actual, true physics analysis would also be helpful... Particularly coming from a "Doctor".
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight For you and others who might be interested, I have a complete math and physics-based analysis of throw here:
billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-14.pdf
And analysis for other aspects of throw and many other pool physics topics can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/technical-proof/
@@DrDaveBilliards Looks to me like some factors are missing. There are effects imparted by the cloth. Also, I have done throw shots where I loft the cue ball and strike the object ball mid-air above center. I see what is up here. You are calling that offset throw, whereas my feeling was that "throw" was when two balls are frozen off angle and one corrects the angle using 'throw'. Maybe I just need to broaden my use of the term.
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight "Throw" is a well-accepted term in the pool world. FYI, if you ever doubt the definition of a term, I have a very thorough glossary of well-accepted definitions here:
billiards.colostate.edu/glossary/
FYI, cloth interaction does not affect throw, per the answer to the 2nd-to-last question here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/answers/
Changing the cut angle by jumping into a ball is a totally unrelated effect. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/jump/over-cut/
For many explanations, demonstrations, and analysis of various throw effects, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/
Enjoy!
Amazing knowledge. I will work on it...
The work is important. Knowledge is not of much use without practice and skill.
The main throw i have problems with is my mond being thrown from my x not shpwing up on custody visit days. Throws my mind com0metely outta whack then i pmay pool to try to get my mind off it but play terrible from a thrown mind and get more mad. Heeeeelp docmy mind is thrown and i cant get out!!!!!! Seriously tho ur vids help my soul. When i get away from these lawyer bills i will def be buying some stuff from you for my little girl to learn as she grows. She is 4 and i bought her a tiny play pool table and she said ddady i already know how to play pool. Sinve she was 2 i would hold her up to the edge of various pool tables n let her hit the ball. I havent seen her but 6 times in a year but im having her this summer and were gonna play every day at my apartment pool table. When she says daddy wow your so good i will say u can thank dr. Dave. Hahaha seriously thx for the vids tho. Ive learned so much. Once my mind is thrown back in order once i get my angel back that was stolen from me i be running out way more often. Doctor daaaaaaaavvvveee maaannnnnnnn. Grape ape grape ape
Thanks for the chuckle. I'm glad you like the vids.
Hi Dave, with the shot at 8.40 I take it the CIT, sending the CB to the right, is not strong enough to counter the SIT, which sends the ball to the left? Does this happen often when they are in conflict? Any tips on who wins generally? Is SIT the big daddy? :)
See the answers to common throw questions here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/answers/
especially the "Do CIT and SIT add or subtract as independent factors?" question.
See also the videos and info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/
Enjoy!
@@DrDaveBilliards Thank for your prompt reply. On my way to checkout those links.
Dr. Dave steve from Seattle, let’s try my question again. If I have a 13 mm tip and you have a 12mm tip let’s say we’re both shooting a 30 degree spot shot, now I know we’re suppose to split the tip on the edge of the object ball, but me with a 13 mm tip would I need to aim a little thinner or thicker than you? Maybe I have to aim for a 3/4 or 5/8 I don’t know, or would we both aim a the same spot! Thanks
I don't see how the question is any different, and my answer is still the same. If you are hitting a 30-degree cut shot (1/2-ball hit) with no sidespin, the center of the tip is aimed through the center of the CB at the edge of the OB (assuming you aren't adjusting for cut-induced throw), regardless of the size of the tip.
One question please, Dr Dave. You said both the draw and the relatively faster speed can reduce the throw effect. I suppose a faster speed means a shorter touching time which causes a lighter throw effect. But for the draw, what's the physical explanation?
For explanations of both the speed and top/bottom spin effects, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/speed-effects/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/draw-follow/
Enjoy!
Dave! Hope all is healthy and well! Question:
I recently have improved my game (accuracy, positional play, speed control, etc) to a point where I want to improve my positional game by adding spin (particularly for 9 ball). Lately, all my practice with spin has made forget how to shoot accurately and use good cue movement. Yesterday I went to the pool hall and had to revisit my fundamentals. It feels like I took 1step forward and 2 steps back. What is your input?
Here's a good place to start:
billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/sidespin/
and then explore everything here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-ball-control/
Dr Dave, i also improved on my game especially the placement of the cue ball after the shot, the speed control. I was able to beat my friend 9 games to his 4. 😁Thank You so much!
Is the "faster speed and backspin/topspin" (4:40) to reduce throw because some of that spin is transferred to the OB and breaks initial friction between OB and the cloth? I'm assuming the cloth friction is the reason CB-OB friction is translated as throw. Or because the backspin puts initial roll on the OB creating initial friction down the correct shot line? If so, not sure why top spin would work, except the hard speed as you mentioned.
A very complete answer can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/draw-follow/
The light bulb just went off on gearing English! I understand! 😃👍🏽
I’m glad to hear it.
This might be a silly question, but I'll throw it out there anyway...
Might old/well used balls experience greater throw than new ones?
I play snooker & English billiards. The snooker balls I use seem well worn. The billiards balls are effectively new. I am not sure if they are the exact same size, but the two sets of balls seem quite different to play with. The new ones seem to 'slide' a lot more, making me think the old ones might be rougher surfaced and thus possibly more prone to throw (and transferred spin)?
I've done some tests on this, and throw seems fairly consistent with worn balls. Although ball cleanliness is a totally different matter. For more info and demos, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/ball/cleaning/
@@DrDaveBilliards thank you very much! I hadn't thought of dirt separately to wear, but it makes sense. I know chalk on a cushion can radically alter ball behavior, so it stands to reason that transferred chalk on balls might have an effect. Checking out link now...
@@andrewmason4004 You're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
In shooting these shots do you use (front or backhand or parallel) English?
I use the System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS) for all sidespin shots. It uses combinations of BHE and FHE. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/
Enjoy!
Anyone else wamna give up on pool because of how complicated the physics reallg are?! I mean how does anyone truly master every aspect ??
The “subtleties” of pool physics is one of the things that makes the game so interesting, IMO.
so does cut induce throw make you want to ever so slightly cut the ball more so it compensates for the throw?
this is opening my idea on the game more but its confusing tf out of me
If not using outside spin, a slight over cut is required to compensate for CIT. For more info, see the list and links at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
Amazing Content I'm New To Channel Liked it a lot
I'm glad to hear it. FYI, I already have over 400 hundred videos on TH-cam, so check out some of my other stuff. The "Top 10" playlist is a good place to start:
th-cam.com/play/PLH9d4KFY28XtrkjqZMKZc3uB4Y5sWCjW6.html
DrDaveBilliards. I kept getting the opposite effect to expected when using spin. Eventually I worked out this is because my cue ball is squirting in the opposite direction of the spin, e.g. if I use right English, then the cue ball is squirting to the left which is causing the object ball to go to the right. This effect is larger than the SIT or CIT effect. Talking to other people, a lot of people have a similar experience. What do you think is causing so much squirt on the cue ball?
This is normal. Before you can be effective at compensating for throw, you first need to be good a compensating for CB deflection (the combined effects of squirt and swerve). For help with this, see the videos and other info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/effects/
and here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/compensation/
Enjoy, and good luck with your game!
What exactly is gearing outside spin? In other words how do you shoot it?
See the videos and info here, especially the 40% Rule:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/
8:35 I don't really aim thick in that situation most of the time because of deflection. I have a terrible cue lol.
FYI, I adjust my aim for CB deflection separately from the thin/thick adjustment for throw, using the System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS):
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/saws/
SAWS works for any cue and any bridge length.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks, I'll have that on bookmark and get to it when I got ti the table.
I've been playing for 22 years. I think I shoot every damn shot with throw 🤷🏾♂️. I use that jab stroke, and just feather a little side on each and every shot. I just know how much to hit it now. I don't even "aim" per se... I just look at how steep the cut is and add side accordingly. My cue ball often comes to rest and still has lots of side spin on it 🤗, my son calls it "loading time" 😝
Many people use spin more than they should; although, when used appropriately and correctly, it can be very effective.
@@DrDaveBilliards yes yes, I know it can mess you up... 🤷🏾♂️
But it's so fun to make that cue ball glide across the rug❤️
My biggest issue is that I used to spin so often that when I don't is when I screw up.
Also my mental game is a bugger. As soon as there are stakes, I fail. Very frustrating. My game is on fire until I'm tested. Then I over think and goes to shit.
@@hawkwind769 If you want help with your mental game, see the video and other info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/mental/
Enjoy!
@@DrDaveBilliards cheers sir, thank you 🤙🏽
Gearing outside spin, would you estimate one tip of outside english be enough?
You don't need to guess. See the 40% rules here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/
Dr, just to clarify - is the term “gearing side spin” a standard terminology in American pool, or your own annotation? Thank you
Standard. Although, some people call it “gearing outside english” instead.
At 2:17 it looks like the diagram is showing outside spin and achieving no wobble, but the diagrams at 2:22 and 2:26 looks like the CB is struck with inside spin for no wobble as well, am I confused?
Thank you for letting me know about the spin diagram error. I just added the following "CORRECTION" to the video description and pinned comment:
- at 2m21s, the left spin showed should be gearing outside (right) spin instead.
@@DrDaveBilliards and there's another shot at 2:24 too :) Love the videos. I've enjoyed your book too!
Make sure you subscribe and turn on notifications.. Doctors Orders 😉 by the way. Love the vids Doc, i have been watching your videos for a long time now and have drastically improved my game to the point of me being the #1 player in my division. As well as i have passed on your knowledge to my teammates and we have become #1 in our division as a team. So huge thank you to your precise guidance
I'm glad to hear it. You are very welcome. I love doing these videos.
How do I make the purchase.
How much does it cost?
My instructional products are for sale here:
drdavebilliards.com/
All info (including prices) is available on the site.
At what angles can we ignore throw? And at what speed can we ignore throw?
You can ignore throw on most shots (most angles and speeds). The shot types (angles and speeds included) where you can't ignore throw are summarized at the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
@@DrDaveBilliards , thanks.
@@commandernoodles2367 You're welcome. I aim to swerve (and throw). :)
...thinks to youre video..☺☺☺☺
You're welcome. I aim to swerve (and throw). :)
How do you do gearing side spin
See the 40% Rule here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/
Dr Dave, can you play a match with Sharivari 9 ball race to 9? You think you can beat him? 😉
That probably won't be easy to arrange. I suspect he is a better player than me, but I think I'm a better instructor. So there. :)
@@DrDaveBilliards why? That would be a great video collab. Im curious who will win. I think you will. 😁
Would love to see this!
DrDave, why does the greatest player Efren shoots wobbly and is unpredictable when he aims?
I don’t think he shoots wobbly at all ... his final stroke is almost always perfect. And I certainly don’t think his aiming is unpredictable. Efren is the GOAT.
@@DrDaveBilliards unlike other players where you know where they will strike...when it comes to Efren i dunno where he will hit the ball. Do you?
full sender The only players i have ever seen that shot wobbly and unpredictably were drinking. To be honest your question is insulting. How could one of the greatest players to ever play the game a man many think is the greatest player of all time shoot wobbly and or unpredictably. Please full sender stop drinking before watching billiards.
@@bogie1971 i am not insulting the greatest ever. Im just askung DrDave what he thinks of Efrens style of shooting the ball.
@@mikeserrano734he has a pure confident stroke, the mechanics before he hits the ball mean nothing. The only one that matters is the only that connects. And when he does it's straight and smooth and with follow thru.
I’m here as well, just to let you know…
If you want to binge-watch pool instructional videos, you are in the right place. I have almost 500 videos on my Channel already. Happy binging!
@@DrDaveBilliards it’s day 3 straight watching your videos, now I feel like I have done my PHD in pool physics…..anyway ur videos are gold. I ve been a long time subscriber. Again coming back to ur videos to earn my PHD.
@@battlefieldclips7013 After you think you are done with your "PhD" of pool physics understanding, try to achieve a "Doctorate of Pool" (DP) for a solid level of play:
billiarduniversity.org/testing/diploma/
This is a real thing.
if you dont tell, backhand or fronthand english?
I use a combination of both BHE and FHE on every shot with sidespin using SAWS:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/saws/
...IM youre funs.. idol.
Gee dr Dave I have a 13. Mm tip and I did not go to Harvard.
Pool is not an exact science. Just a reminder.
Agreed. But it does help to know or have a feel for important effects.
"gearing"? Did you come up with that term or the rest of the gamblers? The effect is called "coefficient of friction", and the moment of contact transfers some of the inertial elements of the striking ball into the struck ball. No need to say "cue" or "object" ball, because it happens in every ball collision. Since there are no "teeth" on round balls, I find this choice of terms silly, at best. I hope it has not been in use throughout the sport. But I put nothing past y'all. I am into the physics of the shot. Not winning any game or anything. I am about the shot. I think that pool players have come up with these terms and most of them suck The drunken players AND their terms). We need to think about young kids coming into this thing and teaching them the gambler mentality claim to be pro terms is pretty lame to me. There are English terms and terms from here in the US that are pretty lame in my view. I remember "follow" and "draw", but from you guys, we get stupid, now commonly used terms like "screw back". Hard to revitalize a sport that requires getting kids interested with weird terms floating around everywhere. Someone should write up a glossary of the terms used and their origins in the sport and whether or not they actually sound like a term we should continue to make use of or deem as "Archaic". "Gearing spin" spin just lame to me.
"Spin induced throw" and "spin induced throw correction" sound better. Also, ANY throw can also be corrected by altering one's contact point, thereby changing the "tangency angle" the throw is induced against, resulting in a "corrected" shot.
With "gearing outside spin," there is no friction whatsoever because the CB is not sliding on the OB ... it is rolling (unless there is topspin or bottom spin with the side, in which there is friction acting down or up, but not sideways). Maybe instead of "gear outside spin" (which is a generally accepted phrase in pool), we could use "non-throwing outside spin."
@@DrDaveBilliards Even though you think they are smooth and hard, when two billiard balls collide, there is most certainly friction, regardless of applied spin condition. I have no idea how you can say that while making a video about throw. Throw depends 100% on the friction between the balls. Now, you may have misinterpreted what I meant thinking about the cloth or something, but if you think there "is no friction" between the balls, you need to get into a (remedial) High School or College physics course. When two frozen, offset balls are struck so as to 'throw' the ball at another angle , the collision friction is what the mechanism is that allows it to happen. There is a tiny moment in every ball collision. There is a "torque arm" presented whenever the ball collision is not right on the same axis as the ball travel. It is typically very small, but gets greater as shot velocity increases. Pool balls are elastic, not static. There is ALWAYS a compression between them and it is governed by their modulus of elasticity and the resultant emphasis depends on their coefficient of friction. This can be easily demonstrated by using rubber balls and glass balls and billiard balls. On the 2-D realm of the table surface, the rubber is VERY "grippy". The glass is very "bouncey". The billiard balls are not as hard as is Ivory or glass, but the medium was chosen because it DOES have a little bit of give to it. That give imparts spin between the balls, specifically because it has a coefficient of friction which is enough to give similar play as that of ivory. They are slightly more elastic than Ivory, however, but not much. Ivory is what the design engineers were attempting to emulate when they stopped using Ivory.
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight When the CB hits a single OB with gearing outside spin (with no top or bottom spin), there is no relative sliding motion between the ball surfaces during contact. Therefore, there is absolutely no friction force or throw. That is clearly demonstrated with the gearing outside spin examples in the videos (Part 1 and Part 2), where the stripe remains vertical after the hit. Regardless of how small (even 0) or large the coefficient of friction is between the balls, the OB would still head in the same direction (along the "line of centers") with gearing outside spin. Watch the videos again with this in mind.
@@DrDaveBilliards What you refer to is 'cancelling spin'. What occurs is the creation of a small torque arm in the direction which cancels the natural torque arm which occurs with a straight, end over end roll and ball strike.
I never made a negative critique of your videos, dude. I merely referred to the monikers used and incomplete physics involved. The video is about throw, so there is no need to go over the non-throw method I suppose.
The shots can be made easily with straight center ball stroke IF the contact point is chosen properly to successfully compensate for the offset. It is simply easier to set up and use a small torque vector (your preciously named spin)allowing the ball tb be struck without angular compensation. So both methods work. Strike point angular compensation, which comes with experience, or spin based compensation, which in may cases the pros speak against. They say that any time one can use center ball stroke, one should. As an advanced player, I disagree and feel that a player should try to learn the full gamut of the ball to ball interplay spectrum, but should start out in the less spin compensated manner.
The main issue with cuts is that on a 2 square table, which pool is, we must watch out for and compensate against a scratch outcome in a lot of shots. So in many cases, not only is your 'gear torque' needed, but a little follow or draw might be in order as well to keep it from finding a pocket after your initial object ball strike. Other elements are the friction of the ball to the cloth and the friction on the nose of the rail. I do not need to watch the video again. I know what is taking place. I have been shooting since Woodstock. Started covering tables only a couple years later.
It has nothing to do with the gambler tourney crowd lingo so many use. I have been a purist my whole life. I use physics terms. This *WAS* a game of kings and nobles. They didn't need to gamble. I think my game play (read technical shooting skill) as well as my explanations of it would impress you. I am into the shot. Not the games. Been shooting banks for years now and shoot off entire racks. Into 2 and 3 and 4 rail shots. The one and two railers are easy... like candy. I am probably faster than "Machine Gun Kelley" was. I wish I could send you a video.
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight Figured out four rail bank shots and gearing but can't fufufufigure out how to post a video on youtube...did they teach you about trolls at Woodstock? Maybe you were taking the wrong drugs
@ 5:24 You deny any friction talking to me, then you use the term "spin transfer" here. (Bugs Bunny voice inflection) "Ehhh... what's up wit dat, Doc?" Some missing physics there. It ain't just clickety clack. Some "things" take place in that microsecond of contact. Obviously... you just said so. Some things I am not getting the sense that you got the sense of across the gamut. I hope you survive the pandemic, because I'd love to come down there and show you a few things that exist outside the 'normal' shot realm. I spent decades gathering skill and data and info regarding the fringes of ballplay. I shoot hard when the shot calls for it and soft when folks expect I'll shoot hard. There is a whole world on that playfield surface in the realm of what happens when a spin vector is introduced into a shot and is used to 'tractor" the cue ball path or the object ball path. It is 'throw'. I regularly shoot bank shots that are either a double kiss to anyone else, or unmakable because of a blocking obstacle. I can shoot straight into the rail and glance off it on a 40 degree angle straight for the side pocket. I shoot out to my left or right and hit the end rail and have it reverse back to me on the same angle I shot it out at. The word for today is "Torque arm". Momentary contact is not as momentary as one might think. Spin transfer is real.
Friction, throw, and spin transfer occur on every shot except when there is "gearing outside spin" (where there is no sliding during contact). FYI, I have a PhD in mechanical engineering and taught physics and dynamics related stuff for 30 years. Have you looked at my analysis stuff yet? You might also check out the resources available via the links in the video description. I have "done my homework" when it comes to throw. I don't get the sense you have.
@@DrDaveBilliards You say that as you ignore that it cancels the torque arm that causes the shot fail offset, so that "gearing spin" as you decided to refer to it as is spinning such that the moment of contact results in zero imparted spin. So yeah, for that shot, when successful, the resultant side motion is completely cancelled. So "gearing" is a misnomer, ehh? Because it does not tractor against the ball at the moment of contact. Oh and I knew you were degreed. I am just not sure you guys got all of the observations down yet. Maybe for 2-D slow shot pool. When one shoots at the fringes in the 3-D pool realm, with hard shots and hard throws, etc. and tractors off rail edges, hopping banks, etc., one carries the FOOL gamut of contact ranges. :-) Every time folks watch me shoot they say things like "I didn't know that could be done..." When I do not have a job, every time I interview with an engineer, I get hired. I guess I just have problems with weird terms like "swerve" and "screw back", etc. Neither sound like good choices in such a formal sport. "Throw" conversely... does sound right. I salute you and your degree(s), I simply think that there may be some missing factors. I guess it comes from watching masters play on 12 foot tables with 2" balls and narrow, rounded pockets, and stroke balls in firmly at steep cut angles like they are candy on 10' long ball traverses. "my homework" is 49 years of table play and elders being angry because they can't figure out how I did one shot or another. After 35 years, I started concentrating on bank shots, and success requires good knowledge of throw in so many cases. For the last ten years, I've been shooting without touching the table. Been doing that a while and even include break shots. I possess FOOL mastery of 7 foot bat tables, and when I get exuberant balls start hopping around and shots I refer to as "non-repeatables" start happening. I really wish I had done some video over the years. I am not the guy in the tournaments. I am the guy doing exhibition shots during the commercials between their games. Nothing staged either. Fantastic shots just happen. I still want to come down there after "the cloud" blows through, if I survive and show you some things. A whole lot happens when that stick angle raises up. Learning to control it is the heart of the small portion of that realm which you address. My shots will cause you to break out the high speed camera just to see where I cue the ball at. I do not do 'practice strokes'... ever. Tied up at the rail edge, I switch to left handed. Odd thing... might want to involve the neuro guys... when I switch to left handed, my brain "sees" the shot angle more precisely, especially on full table length banks. It's all about confidence. I really do want to meet you and you would then want to work with me, and I would like to bring the neural guys in too. Brain scan me while I traipse around the table popping shots and perfect cue ball rolls like candy. I spent 7 years in drafting classes way back in the T-square days and did a lot of my personal table design drawings there. I know nearly all of the BCA table specs by heart and can spot an out of spec table brand as soon as I walk up on it. I have the same fog-O-graphic memory for the US flag. If it is off, I can see it. I knew what 10,000th inch tolerances were way back in the late sixties, before I was even ten years old. My father worked at Cincinnati Milacron, so I have known about precision fits and tolerances for decades. Built my first 427 rat motor in '71 Though my main skill is in electronics. I have worked on projects that the result of which went up on Space Shuttle experiments. I am no dummy, by any stretch.
@@cosmicraysshotsintothelight I din't invent the "gearing outside spin" phrase. It is standard. I agree that the gear analogy isn't perfect because gears under load have tangential force and torque. However, the way gears mesh, without any tangential sliding, is a good metaphor.
@@DrDaveBilliards Could have said "grinding wheel spin" in that case. Here I am having a problem with it, and you now calling it a good metaphor *still*. I can shoot table length 'stun' shots and stop shots and set the cue ball right there, or move it after some inches away, back, right or left, and that form of cancellation has never struck me that way. You'd be amazed at what firm stroke elevated stick shots can do (or maybe not). Melling was a master.