Could you please look at my comment if you want an idea for a video? The life span of a gamer maybe? How players playstyles change as they get older, wiser, and maybe lose the reflexes that they've had in the past? Just an idea. Thank you for all that you do for the community and good job on the work that you've done so far
It's amazing seeing Justin Wong on youtube .. I remember once a long time ago I met him on the subway and he REMEMBERED his casual game against me !! This was back in Third Strike, we did nearly 30 games and I didn't win once. We didn't talk the whole time except for when I whiffed an uppercut and he lost a round because he had predicted what I wanted to do but my mistake ended up making him whiff instead. I said " I didn't mean to do that " and he was like " I know " XD. In the subway he had remembered how I played and he gave me advice on how I just wasn't utilizing normals properly. I applied this later and while the game was less exciting I started winning more against higher tier players. I never got the opportunity to thank him, but it's really great to see him now : ]
I’ve got an uncle that taught me that. Normals pokes priority that’s the key. We played every freakin Street Fighter and I’d pull out all the combos supers fadc into whatever and he would still edge out a win run out the clock etc that’s why he’s still a master in my book
@@johndewberryiii9925 Yup. Combos and broken moves are useless if you whiff and don't properly space them. In most games I've played with a ranked ladder, you see A LOT of lab rats with terrible fundamentals in silver and gold because most of them expect the combos to carry them. It's hilarious to dunk on someone who has better execution than me but doesn't block even once.
2:00 Any character can played lame Every character has a safe move that can be used repeatedly to play lame and close out a round, even characters that excel on offense. (Abigail's jab, Mika's st.MP, Birdie's cr.LP, Laura's st.LK) You never actually Have To play offensive with a character. 3:52 Don't Rush There are 99 seconds on the clock per round, plenty of time. Even if you're losing, Chill out! Walk them down, Put them in the corner, identify their patterns and the moves they like to use. The only time you should worry about ending the round quickly is if the opponent has a life lead of 50%~100% and the set is about to end in the next 15~30 seconds. Many players find it difficult to actually play lame for more than 30 seconds. Be patient and a chance will present itself. 5:59 No need to Pressure in the Corner Doing pressure introduces the possibility of you messing up that pressure (IE, missing your meaty on their wakeup). If that happens, the opponent has an opportunity to turn the tables. Instead, stay midscreen where it's safe. You only need to hit them a couple more times to close out the round, whereas they need to take big risks to get out the corner. 7:56 Stay at a Comfortable Range You never want to be put in a "scramble" situation, where you're not sure what might happen next. Getting too close opens up many fast, unreactable options for the opponent (reversals, jabs, etc) and essentially creates a 50/50 situation for you and your opponent. Instead, stay at poking range. (Characters [like Dhalsim] that vastly outrange your pokes are an exception; you should get close in that case) The more Comfortable with the range you're playing in, the more Confident you can play. 10:19 Don't be Scared when Pressured Understanding frame data helps with this. Eventually there will be a gap in their pressure that allows you to escape. "If you study [their pressure], the numbers don't lie." Taking the throw is the safe option. If you attempt to mash out, it usually allows the opponent to punish you much harder than if you just took the throw. In addition, most players are simply not comfortable with having to throw you that much. 11:57 Focus on Small and Big Damage Slow but hard hitting moves may close out rounds faster, but they also are more likely to be avoided and punished by the opponent. Conversely, jabs and other faster moves (that deal 'small' amounts of damage) will allow you to react to more of what the opponent does, while also pushing them back on hit. When the opponent has more health, 'small' damage is less of a problem for the opponent, but otherwise it becomes unbearable for them. 14:55 Take the Safest route, Don't Gamble Comebacks often happen because the opponent takes a big risk even though they have the lead. If you take options with low risk, the opponent will have to guess much more and work much harder to close out the round. (IE, taking the throw instead of mashing in pressure during a frametrap. & Choosing options in 50/50s that are less likely to get you hit.) The only exceptions are when you're about to die, or when you're about to be stunned. In those situations you have to take a risk to stay alive.
Me an your seventh point are going to be at odds. Gambling is what makes it *fun.* Street Fighter is a game that's partially about pushing your luck and how far you're willing to push it. You just have to know when the table's hot. :3
Thx for the transcription 👍. Justin did not insist on the big damage part but watching his recent tournament menat play he should have, beeing technical and maximal damage combo seems a crucial part of his gameplan.
I think Itazan's a bit of a gambler. Yeah it *looks* like he plays nuts, but when I watched him rob F-Champ in Paris? I swear I think that broke him. Talk about postulatin' the possibilities. F-Champ is a known calculator and the look on his face just said "B-But, that's not even *possible."* Being as optimal as possible whenever you can, and having a tight read on the risk reward equation helps everyone's game.
Something to add on the "don't pressure in the corner" tactic: when you back up to midscreen, you also give yourself the space/time for you to react to the dumb stuff they're gonna do to get themselves out of the corner
Bro. This actually changed my gameplay already. Seriously was playing a Match and I heard your voice in my head "chill. Watch for patterns" "what's your safest button? Lame him out" won the match xD thanks my dude. I think this vid altered my strats entirely
Heath Craig I mean I guess 😂😂 it’s just natural that most people have that happen in their heads. If you have a role model or someone you look up to. your brain just jets with thoughts and will create something to push you . Not a hard concept 😂 just watch movies or anime a common cliche idea to hype up a character
This is a cool video to watch. The friend I play with most of the time gets toxic about how patiently I play. So it's cool to see one of the GOATs talk about playing lame and seeing everyone in the comment section support it. It definitely makes me feel less bad about my playstyle
As a Guile player since SF2 I've always been a lame player. There was a time when I tried to play rush down. But I embrace defensive play. Much harder than people think. Especially in modern games where they reward offense more than defense.
@Brian I play Bryan fury who has a lot of safe strings and long range punishes so I usually harass with pressure then punish when the start to press buttons. Even supposedly complex and technical characters can be simplified.
This video really helped me out in a big way. A long time ago, when I actually used to be good at SF, I played lame... but as time went on, mostly because of anxiety issues, I felt pressured to play more offensively, and eventually even slow down when I was winning a match with too much of a life lead, which would a lot of the time end in me losing. I was basically playing just to lose, and I unfortunately had been doing it for so long that I didn’t really even remember my original playstyle anymore. Society kills. Hearing from you that playing very defensively is okay really made me want to sit down and intentionally re-work my whole current style of play to match the way I played back then more closely. I will still have these anxiety barriers to overcome, but hopefully playing online will make that part easier. Truly, thank you for this video and everything you have done and continue to do. You are an inspiration.
Your match against Problem X at CC was probably my favorite set in all of SFV thus far. The way he adapted but ultimately ran out of patience was really fun to watch. I never really tried playing lame or passively and the way you present this mindset makes me wanna try to incorporate some of the ideas. Thanks for the video.
Wow. I have been enraged by this style of play so many times and always wonder the Why of playing that way. This video is super insightful. Thanks, Wong!
I love that Justin is so open to talking about these things. Other people would get irate and brush off the issue, etc. Justin tackled it head on and honestly it makes so much sense. It's an invaluable perspective! And it DOES take so much mental fortitude and patience to know when to hold a desirable position. It's part of the game
Justin thanks for sharing this. Really helps break it down for the casual turning strong players. There is alot of very powerful insight here that everyone can apply to play style or own fighting game.
I really love this because it's just one of the greatest players of all time talking about how his enjoyment is different from most people, and it feels really nice and validating to see someone not only making their own fun but also succeeding with it. Even if I don't always want to watch it, I love him being there and thriving doing what he loves
When you play lame in a fighting game, you get more time in neutral, more time to condition the opponent and to read their state. If you're rushing down and always playing mixups on wakeup, then you'll never see the opponent's emotional state go from confident to annoyed to frustrated, and you'll never have the "conversation" that comes from trying to influence their behavior as they try to adapt to you. Playing lame gives you so many more chances to get in the opponent's head, and that's why I really like to play game, even though it's difficult for me
Well put. I like the kinds of characters that don't necessarily have alot of pressure to get an in often, but make it count when they do, knocking the opponent on their ass after 2 or 3 mistakes. Grapplers are usually what people think of with that kind of "touch of death" mentality, but the powerhouse is a wide spectrum and what I really like is when I can make use of reversals and counters to make an opening while in the defesive. In Under Night, I get it with Enkidu. In BlazBlue, it's Hakumen. In Guilty Gear Xrd, it's actually not Baiken funny enough, but Sin Kiske get's the job done decently as well, with enough power behind his punishes that the opponent can't just disregard getting compromised. These kinds of characters gel with me, because much like you enjoy seeing your opponent crack from frustration, I like making the opponent wilt in fear. After so many games of just constant blocking and guess-gaming mixups, it gave me so much joy when I saw my opponent actually back off and slow down, because they knew that half of their life was riding on the decisions they were making. Some of the most exciting moments for me in fighting games is when the neutral game goes quiet. When both players are on safe ground, strafing back and forth, just waiting for one or the other to throw a bad button. These are situations I like seeing and if my opponent is too risky and rushes me at every opportunity, it's my job to beat that respect for neutral into him.
Its so rare to hear in an aggressive game the mentality of taking it easy and playing it safe. But its really like Bruce Lee's "be the water" and I never really thought of it like that. I stumbled across this vid randomly but i think im gonna give fighting games another try because of it. Thank you so much
I love this playstyle, and I feel vindicated that Mr. Wong embraces it as well. I’ve only heard it called “lame” by salty opponents, but I think the best part of a defensive and patient style is putting my opponent on tilt so he misplays. I’ve always referred to this play style as “Solid & Respectful”
It's stuff like this that makes me like fighting games even more, so many different ways to approach the game, different strategies, etc... and in the end it all comes down to skill. Great video 👍
Really interesting to see the defensive philosophy laid out in a concise way. I found this super insightful. While obviously, at the high level you need to be an execution master, using the lame arts might be sufficient to grind it out with relatively low technical skill. Great video!
I know I'm a year late to this video, but almost all these strategies you went over basically covered all of my bad habits in fighting games. I applied some them just now in ranked play on Gran Blue Versus as Beelzebub and I instantly found bits of success with a 10-win streak. I have a long road to get better, but your mindset was so helpful and I wanted to thank you for articulating your methods :)
One thing that is so hard to play lame consistently is that there is a feeling of remorse for the opponent when you first started out....you MUSNT FEEL THAT SENSE OF GUILT AND REMORSE ...without any pity for your opponents or whatsoever....remember...you will need to do what it takes to win...no matter what ....thata the hallmark of a true champion lame player..
We call it "Dry" where im from. Nothin wrong with it. Ive been told i have a dry ass Guile. But yeah playing lame It pisses the person off eventually and they will fall into your Cerebral trap. I tend to get aggressive out of the blue when they dont expect me to do a risk move. "Lame" is fine in my book. It works
Re being close to stun and in a mixup: The safer option here is actually often to tech and *not* take the throw. Because a backthrow here will typically kill you, whereas a shimmy or frame trap will often mean you get another guess after the stun combo.
I think he meant it as an overarching metaphor, meaning take the safest option, not that you literally have to take every throw even when it's not the safest option
I'm a player who plays mostly rushdown characters and earlier today, I thought "Maybe I should try working on my defense" and then I saw this video. Really good timing. Thanks. What I really thought of was what can I do to block 50:50s more consistently but now I know that the answer is just to not get yourself in that position in the first place, even at the cost of some life. This would help a lot.
Funny is how well Justin indirectly are describing Daigo its self. Pure defensible and spammer player. That is play lame af. Ty Justin you are the best.
I love this I too love playing simple, slow, timing them out Especially about being comfortable and playing away when you have their back against the wall I apply this is tekken all the time Why get back thrown or grabbed and lose positioning just stay steady and look for opportunities!
I dislike the fact that we casually call it "lame" when the mechanics are there specifically for the play style. Lame has such a negative connotation and I feel like that's the game. I dunno, maybe I'm thinking too hard about it
My favorite aspect of competitive games in general is controlling the pace of the match forcing your opponent to take risks in the windows I provide leaving me at an overall advantage and providing easy punishes. I'm primarily either a Chun player or some type of grappler since they generally revolve around controlling space with normals and pressuring with space over time. Kind of ironic since my grappler of choice is often countered by Chun, but understanding the ranges and tools she has by maining her really helped those matchups both ways.
Justin got parried because he was not patient enough when he threw chun li's SA. That is madness when you know how patient he is. It gives a small idea of how you need to be patient and focused to play as defensively as Justin does
@@pillshere5463 my interpretation of it was that he didn't want to risk getting out footsied and punished so he went with plan b since Daigo wasn't walking into one of his limbs. Personally think he should have pressured Dago with cr mk.
@@pillshere5463 no dude thats not why he did it. Do u under stand the chances of doing that in a finals at evo 0.01 percent. Thats why he did it. The chances of him missing a parry and being chipped were in his favor but diago got lucky enough to hit it all which was amazing and he is an amazing player
Listening to this video, I never knew I was a fucking lame. This is exactly my mindset when playing any fighting game really. I have lamed so many people out without even realizing it.
This is the best video to describe how to truly play SFV. for such a offensive heavy game , I’ve always said that to be good in the game , you have to master a defensive mindset
Great video, Justin! I’m a melee player from Vancouver, BC. I would love to see the Art of Lame become a series of yours, maybe where you explore the art in different fighting games too ^_^ Hope to see you at VSB someday!
I find it interesting that I become more and more cautious in fighting games. Actually all games. When I was a kid I play RPG with no grind at all, I still vividly remember I got to TOD's final boss and my party is like 45 something level but the boss is 90, I used up every item and strategy and finally won the fight with absolutely no space for error. Like so I play rushdown all my life untill pretty much last year, but all of a sudden my characters are shifting to space control, and I'm playing defensively.
I love this video, I think I can play my SFIV Vega a lot better now that I am thinking about calming myself down and keeping it set at the range that I play best at. Sometimes I get too aggressive and fall into bad habits, I will try to keep myself in the same safe range or position that doesn't risk my health bar for a bit more damage
I'm an aggressive player, but I've always thought lame/ defensive playstyles were cooler. I have no clue why, but I'm trying to transition my playstyle into that. Thanks for this vid.
As an Ultimate player, I don't necessarily like the neutral game being mash-y, where it's basically a question of 'who gets to do their stuff first?' It feels almost random at times, both players just trying to guess or 'react' (98 ms input delay) to their opponent's next option with no real emphasis on spacing or even whiff punishing at times. Applying your rules to Ultimate completely changes the neutral game and decision making in the best way possible. I no longer feel like the neutral game is just two angry bulls charging at each other, and instead it feels like my opponent is the angry bull charging at me, and I'm patiently waiting for an opening. I no longer feel like I have to *mash* and I think that's what matters. Most players agree with the notion that Ultimate is a game where you mash, but you don't need to. You just need to know what your opponent *will* mash, and playing lame is arguably the best way to look at that. The fact that I'm applying this to Joker of all characters makes this so enlightening for me. "Chill! Walk 'em down, look for some patterns." Justin Wong 2019
Good to see that you know what's up, because Joker only has one move that's safe to mash (back air). He really doesn't attack much at all, because he's so small and so fast vertically that your opponent has no choice but to hit you with moves. And those moves might whiff, and Joker has some DEADLY whiff punishes off grab, down tilt, nair etc.
It's like how lots of magic the gathering players don't like control decks. Their purpose is to deny what the enemy is doing and defend from their attacks. I love that playstyle and that how I play fighting games as well :D Totally understand your point of view
Great vid man i love playing lame too! I think i just enjoy the fact of seeing all that your opponent can throw at you then block/counter it and go yeah anything else you got. No? Ok i win.
I've got a really aggressive playstyle even with grapplers I find my self compelled to charge in so I'll definitely be implementing this into my playstyle.
Every play style is different. Justin is explaining his defensive style, I'm sure there are many other pros who play more offensively you can also learn from.
Is a strategy you follow also in card game Risk are thing that swing toward a 50% winprobability When you are winning you avoid them when you are losing you try to swing it Recoinasing in which of the two you find yourself is a very important skill
Good video, man. I'm often known for lame play in a few games and this is a good breakdown of how to approach a few given situations mentally. What's next for me is learning how to agress better, not because I don't trust my safe play but because it's a valuable skill to be well rounded. Simply put, I want to know that I *can* approach if I want to.
While I hate late since my playstyle now that I look into it is VERY rush down or aggressive but if the guy is having fun I have to respect playing lame. Even now I'm thinking of how I can play lame with my character
Playing lame is the safest risk free option in fighting games especially when you HAVE THE LEAD....the only weakness when playing lame is when you are pushed to the corner by your opponent when doing it...which is why it makes sense that Justin said you always have to be calm and composed and stay at the center of the screen...getting trapped in the corner the way i see it is THE ONLY WEAKNESS IT HAS WHILE PLAYING LAME....
I learned turtle style from Justin in 2000. Ive always been rushdown but now I have both. Hated adding it but I watched young Wong have ALOT of success playing lame.
I won't lie, I wasn't expecting you to be the defensive type Justin. Granted in a majority of fighting games, i'm a bit more aggro because I like putting pressure on my opponents. But the Art of "Lame" fighting seems really good for defensive. Now I gotta figure how to put that with Cammy and see how it goes. But if I may suggest something, how about doing a stream sesh of different characters in the SF5 cast and showing ways you can be "Lame" with them. I'd think it'd be pretty cool to watch
Thanks for doing this vid! Very useful.
Yo what are you doing here🤔.. Drop that vid
Analysis: Why do people play lame?
Could you please look at my comment if you want an idea for a video? The life span of a gamer maybe? How players playstyles change as they get older, wiser, and maybe lose the reflexes that they've had in the past? Just an idea. Thank you for all that you do for the community and good job on the work that you've done so far
Do a video about playing lame!
so good to see you man but seriously when's the next analysis video
It's amazing seeing Justin Wong on youtube .. I remember once a long time ago I met him on the subway and he REMEMBERED his casual game against me !! This was back in Third Strike, we did nearly 30 games and I didn't win once. We didn't talk the whole time except for when I whiffed an uppercut and he lost a round because he had predicted what I wanted to do but my mistake ended up making him whiff instead. I said " I didn't mean to do that " and he was like " I know " XD. In the subway he had remembered how I played and he gave me advice on how I just wasn't utilizing normals properly. I applied this later and while the game was less exciting I started winning more against higher tier players. I never got the opportunity to thank him, but it's really great to see him now : ]
Really hope Justin sees this
I’ve got an uncle that taught me that. Normals pokes priority that’s the key. We played every freakin Street Fighter and I’d pull out all the combos supers fadc into whatever and he would still edge out a win run out the clock etc that’s why he’s still a master in my book
@@johndewberryiii9925 Yup.
Combos and broken moves are useless if you whiff and don't properly space them.
In most games I've played with a ranked ladder, you see A LOT of lab rats with terrible fundamentals in silver and gold because most of them expect the combos to carry them.
It's hilarious to dunk on someone who has better execution than me but doesn't block even once.
@@BknMoonStudios if your fundamentals and footsies are tight you can beat anyone no matter how many fancy tricks they know
😊
- factz ✊
He’s the king of Lame
There is none higher
Scrubby players will call him sire
Pushing no buttons, he will not tire
He’ll play lame till he retires
truly poetic
That's beautiful
2:00 Any character can played lame
Every character has a safe move that can be used repeatedly to play lame and close out a round, even characters that excel on offense. (Abigail's jab, Mika's st.MP, Birdie's cr.LP, Laura's st.LK)
You never actually Have To play offensive with a character.
3:52 Don't Rush
There are 99 seconds on the clock per round, plenty of time. Even if you're losing, Chill out! Walk them down, Put them in the corner, identify their patterns and the moves they like to use.
The only time you should worry about ending the round quickly is if the opponent has a life lead of 50%~100% and the set is about to end in the next 15~30 seconds.
Many players find it difficult to actually play lame for more than 30 seconds. Be patient and a chance will present itself.
5:59 No need to Pressure in the Corner
Doing pressure introduces the possibility of you messing up that pressure (IE, missing your meaty on their wakeup). If that happens, the opponent has an opportunity to turn the tables.
Instead, stay midscreen where it's safe. You only need to hit them a couple more times to close out the round, whereas they need to take big risks to get out the corner.
7:56 Stay at a Comfortable Range
You never want to be put in a "scramble" situation, where you're not sure what might happen next. Getting too close opens up many fast, unreactable options for the opponent (reversals, jabs, etc) and essentially creates a 50/50 situation for you and your opponent.
Instead, stay at poking range. (Characters [like Dhalsim] that vastly outrange your pokes are an exception; you should get close in that case)
The more Comfortable with the range you're playing in, the more Confident you can play.
10:19 Don't be Scared when Pressured
Understanding frame data helps with this. Eventually there will be a gap in their pressure that allows you to escape. "If you study [their pressure], the numbers don't lie."
Taking the throw is the safe option. If you attempt to mash out, it usually allows the opponent to punish you much harder than if you just took the throw.
In addition, most players are simply not comfortable with having to throw you that much.
11:57 Focus on Small and Big Damage
Slow but hard hitting moves may close out rounds faster, but they also are more likely to be avoided and punished by the opponent.
Conversely, jabs and other faster moves (that deal 'small' amounts of damage) will allow you to react to more of what the opponent does, while also pushing them back on hit.
When the opponent has more health, 'small' damage is less of a problem for the opponent, but otherwise it becomes unbearable for them.
14:55 Take the Safest route, Don't Gamble
Comebacks often happen because the opponent takes a big risk even though they have the lead. If you take options with low risk, the opponent will have to guess much more and work much harder to close out the round.
(IE, taking the throw instead of mashing in pressure during a frametrap. & Choosing options in 50/50s that are less likely to get you hit.)
The only exceptions are when you're about to die, or when you're about to be stunned. In those situations you have to take a risk to stay alive.
Me an your seventh point are going to be at odds. Gambling is what makes it *fun.* Street Fighter is a game that's partially about pushing your luck and how far you're willing to push it. You just have to know when the table's hot. :3
Thx for the transcription 👍. Justin did not insist on the big damage part but watching his recent tournament menat play he should have, beeing technical and maximal damage combo seems a crucial part of his gameplan.
I think Itazan's a bit of a gambler. Yeah it *looks* like he plays nuts, but when I watched him rob F-Champ in Paris? I swear I think that broke him. Talk about postulatin' the possibilities. F-Champ is a known calculator and the look on his face just said "B-But, that's not even *possible."* Being as optimal as possible whenever you can, and having a tight read on the risk reward equation helps everyone's game.
Something to add on the "don't pressure in the corner" tactic: when you back up to midscreen, you also give yourself the space/time for you to react to the dumb stuff they're gonna do to get themselves out of the corner
@@mikejonesnoreally you know what they say, fortune favors the bold.
Bro. This actually changed my gameplay already. Seriously was playing a Match and I heard your voice in my head "chill. Watch for patterns" "what's your safest button? Lame him out" won the match xD thanks my dude. I think this vid altered my strats entirely
Thanks for watching
There's this funny little thing called schizophrenia that you should look into
What game was it?
Heath Craig I mean I guess 😂😂 it’s just natural that most people have that happen in their heads. If you have a role model or someone you look up to. your brain just jets with thoughts and will create something to push you . Not a hard concept 😂 just watch movies or anime a common cliche idea to hype up a character
@@heathc148 there's a thing called autism that you should look into
Learning to play patiently has been the largest hurdle I’ve faced as a fighting game competitor, this video helps so much!
This is a cool video to watch. The friend I play with most of the time gets toxic about how patiently I play. So it's cool to see one of the GOATs talk about playing lame and seeing everyone in the comment section support it.
It definitely makes me feel less bad about my playstyle
As a Guile player since SF2 I've always been a lame player. There was a time when I tried to play rush down. But I embrace defensive play. Much harder than people think. Especially in modern games where they reward offense more than defense.
@Brian I play Bryan fury who has a lot of safe strings and long range punishes so I usually harass with pressure then punish when the start to press buttons. Even supposedly complex and technical characters can be simplified.
@@azechase6597 or you catch em pressing buttons and do 70% in a wall combo. I love it 3+4 is godly cause it can ch
@@BURRDAWG_ don't forget snake edge for when they try to block or play footsies
@@azechase6597 I only pull that out as a set ender.
This video really helped me out in a big way.
A long time ago, when I actually used to be good at SF, I played lame... but as time went on, mostly because of anxiety issues, I felt pressured to play more offensively, and eventually even slow down when I was winning a match with too much of a life lead, which would a lot of the time end in me losing. I was basically playing just to lose, and I unfortunately had been doing it for so long that I didn’t really even remember my original playstyle anymore. Society kills.
Hearing from you that playing very defensively is okay really made me want to sit down and intentionally re-work my whole current style of play to match the way I played back then more closely. I will still have these anxiety barriers to overcome, but hopefully playing online will make that part easier.
Truly, thank you for this video and everything you have done and continue to do. You are an inspiration.
Thank you, Justin.
Even in the era of SF6, this is extremely helpful.
I learned a lot about my mistakes through this video.
Your match against Problem X at CC was probably my favorite set in all of SFV thus far. The way he adapted but ultimately ran out of patience was really fun to watch. I never really tried playing lame or passively and the way you present this mindset makes me wanna try to incorporate some of the ideas.
Thanks for the video.
Justin Wong = Mayweather
I would say
FilipinoChamp = Mayweather would be more accurate
@@Selrahcthewise not after sonic fox gave him that ass whoopin
@@Selrahcthewise nah Filipino champ is Ali
I hate playing against a truly lame player, but I'll respect it.
This man talking about Street Fighter, but man, he talking about life.
Wow. I have been enraged by this style of play so many times and always wonder the Why of playing that way. This video is super insightful. Thanks, Wong!
I love that Justin is so open to talking about these things. Other people would get irate and brush off the issue, etc. Justin tackled it head on and honestly it makes so much sense. It's an invaluable perspective! And it DOES take so much mental fortitude and patience to know when to hold a desirable position. It's part of the game
Justin thanks for sharing this. Really helps break it down for the casual turning strong players. There is alot of very powerful insight here that everyone can apply to play style or own fighting game.
Love this perspective and I enjoyed the video. Keep on doing you Justin!
I really love this because it's just one of the greatest players of all time talking about how his enjoyment is different from most people, and it feels really nice and validating to see someone not only making their own fun but also succeeding with it. Even if I don't always want to watch it, I love him being there and thriving doing what he loves
Hey congrats on the baby girl. Wish you guys all the best 😁👍
When you play lame in a fighting game, you get more time in neutral, more time to condition the opponent and to read their state. If you're rushing down and always playing mixups on wakeup, then you'll never see the opponent's emotional state go from confident to annoyed to frustrated, and you'll never have the "conversation" that comes from trying to influence their behavior as they try to adapt to you. Playing lame gives you so many more chances to get in the opponent's head, and that's why I really like to play game, even though it's difficult for me
I used to kind of feel offended when someone said I fought lame, now I realise it's a compliment. Lame is being strong and not taking silly risks.
Well put. I like the kinds of characters that don't necessarily have alot of pressure to get an in often, but make it count when they do, knocking the opponent on their ass after 2 or 3 mistakes. Grapplers are usually what people think of with that kind of "touch of death" mentality, but the powerhouse is a wide spectrum and what I really like is when I can make use of reversals and counters to make an opening while in the defesive. In Under Night, I get it with Enkidu. In BlazBlue, it's Hakumen. In Guilty Gear Xrd, it's actually not Baiken funny enough, but Sin Kiske get's the job done decently as well, with enough power behind his punishes that the opponent can't just disregard getting compromised.
These kinds of characters gel with me, because much like you enjoy seeing your opponent crack from frustration, I like making the opponent wilt in fear. After so many games of just constant blocking and guess-gaming mixups, it gave me so much joy when I saw my opponent actually back off and slow down, because they knew that half of their life was riding on the decisions they were making. Some of the most exciting moments for me in fighting games is when the neutral game goes quiet. When both players are on safe ground, strafing back and forth, just waiting for one or the other to throw a bad button. These are situations I like seeing and if my opponent is too risky and rushes me at every opportunity, it's my job to beat that respect for neutral into him.
Its so rare to hear in an aggressive game the mentality of taking it easy and playing it safe. But its really like Bruce Lee's "be the water" and I never really thought of it like that.
I stumbled across this vid randomly but i think im gonna give fighting games another try because of it. Thank you so much
I love this playstyle, and I feel vindicated that Mr. Wong embraces it as well.
I’ve only heard it called “lame” by salty opponents, but I think the best part of a defensive and patient style is putting my opponent on tilt so he misplays.
I’ve always referred to this play style as “Solid & Respectful”
It's stuff like this that makes me like fighting games even more, so many different ways to approach the game, different strategies, etc... and in the end it all comes down to skill. Great video 👍
Really interesting to see the defensive philosophy laid out in a concise way. I found this super insightful. While obviously, at the high level you need to be an execution master, using the lame arts might be sufficient to grind it out with relatively low technical skill. Great video!
I know I'm a year late to this video, but almost all these strategies you went over basically covered all of my bad habits in fighting games. I applied some them just now in ranked play on Gran Blue Versus as Beelzebub and I instantly found bits of success with a 10-win streak. I have a long road to get better, but your mindset was so helpful and I wanted to thank you for articulating your methods :)
One thing that is so hard to play lame consistently is that there is a feeling of remorse for the opponent when you first started out....you MUSNT FEEL THAT SENSE OF GUILT AND REMORSE ...without any pity for your opponents or whatsoever....remember...you will need to do what it takes to win...no matter what ....thata the hallmark of a true champion lame player..
I love u justin for this.. this is GOLDEN! Not only For Street Fighter but all Fighting games across the board. This was very helpful man thanx.
This is incredibly good advice Justin. Everyone looking to step their game up should listen to this.
We call it "Dry" where im from. Nothin wrong with it. Ive been told i have a dry ass Guile. But yeah playing lame It pisses the person off eventually and they will fall into your Cerebral trap. I tend to get aggressive out of the blue when they dont expect me to do a risk move. "Lame" is fine in my book. It works
Thanks, this helped me out so much with playing Melee (I main puff) and I feel like this will help me so much at starting new fighting games
Re being close to stun and in a mixup: The safer option here is actually often to tech and *not* take the throw. Because a backthrow here will typically kill you, whereas a shimmy or frame trap will often mean you get another guess after the stun combo.
I think he meant it as an overarching metaphor, meaning take the safest option, not that you literally have to take every throw even when it's not the safest option
I'm a player who plays mostly rushdown characters and earlier today, I thought "Maybe I should try working on my defense" and then I saw this video. Really good timing. Thanks.
What I really thought of was what can I do to block 50:50s more consistently but now I know that the answer is just to not get yourself in that position in the first place, even at the cost of some life. This would help a lot.
This probably explains why Justin won so many tournaments. Patient.
*The Will to Keep it Lame*
I noticed many players put this method to good use.
I see many have improved over the course. Thank you for the helpful advice.
The art of lame!! I absolutely love it! You’re an amazing player brother!!!
Funny is how well Justin indirectly are describing Daigo its self.
Pure defensible and spammer player. That is play lame af.
Ty Justin you are the best.
I love this I too love playing simple, slow, timing them out
Especially about being comfortable and playing away when you have their back against the wall I apply this is tekken all the time
Why get back thrown or grabbed and lose positioning just stay steady and look for opportunities!
I dislike the fact that we casually call it "lame" when the mechanics are there specifically for the play style. Lame has such a negative connotation and I feel like that's the game. I dunno, maybe I'm thinking too hard about it
My favorite aspect of competitive games in general is controlling the pace of the match forcing your opponent to take risks in the windows I provide leaving me at an overall advantage and providing easy punishes. I'm primarily either a Chun player or some type of grappler since they generally revolve around controlling space with normals and pressuring with space over time. Kind of ironic since my grappler of choice is often countered by Chun, but understanding the ranges and tools she has by maining her really helped those matchups both ways.
Justin is too scared to play aggressive after EVO Moment #37
Justin got parried because he was not patient enough when he threw chun li's SA. That is madness when you know how patient he is. It gives a small idea of how you need to be patient and focused to play as defensively as Justin does
@@pillshere5463 my interpretation of it was that he didn't want to risk getting out footsied and punished so he went with plan b since Daigo wasn't walking into one of his limbs. Personally think he should have pressured Dago with cr mk.
haha yes he made the original joke
People love to talk about moment #37, but they forget about 1x3 Cyclops moment in MvC2
@@pillshere5463 no dude thats not why he did it. Do u under stand the chances of doing that in a finals at evo 0.01 percent. Thats why he did it. The chances of him missing a parry and being chipped were in his favor but diago got lucky enough to hit it all which was amazing and he is an amazing player
10 years worth of advice in one video!
Now I'm in the search for a video called “the art of cool”
here you go th-cam.com/video/0CFgLOmQ1Qg/w-d-xo.html
@@MrTheTomahawk Suuuper predictable
@@MrTheTomahawk I got an ad so I got saved
if you wanna be cool just do the opposite of everything jwonggg says in this video
“They wanna mix your shit”
as a new melee player maining samus and a previous guile main in various streetfighter games, this is great!
Thanks Justin, I've always thought one minute per round was too short. Hopefully with this guide I can relive SFxT for years to come.
It's like Rembrandt gave me a painting lesson
This is the "Ultimate Blueprint".
Thank You Justin Wong!
Listening to this video, I never knew I was a fucking lame. This is exactly my mindset when playing any fighting game really.
I have lamed so many people out without even realizing it.
This dude is amazing. "You gonna get toyed with and imma whoop your ass while enjoying it"
This is the best video to describe how to truly play SFV. for such a offensive heavy game , I’ve always said that to be good in the game , you have to master a defensive mindset
Great video, Justin! I’m a melee player from Vancouver, BC. I would love to see the Art of Lame become a series of yours, maybe where you explore the art in different fighting games too ^_^
Hope to see you at VSB someday!
"Some people say it's not enough damage. But the thing is, it is. " just about as straightforward as it gets
the "Lame" playstyle owns me. im just not that patient
This was a cool explanation. Came here cause Smug recommended you and I am glad i did!
actually pretty mind-blowing, never thought about enjoying the defense aspect of the game
Thank you for this. I will apply to both SFV and SSBU
Thanks Justin .. Menat player here .. I like to play defensively... good advice
I find it interesting that I become more and more cautious in fighting games.
Actually all games. When I was a kid I play RPG with no grind at all, I still vividly remember I got to TOD's final boss and my party is like 45 something level but the boss is 90, I used up every item and strategy and finally won the fight with absolutely no space for error. Like so I play rushdown all my life untill pretty much last year, but all of a sudden my characters are shifting to space control, and I'm playing defensively.
This is Justin's best video EVER! The gospel of Justin Wong!
Take your time. You have a all the time in the world. No pressure, no pressure
I love this video, I think I can play my SFIV Vega a lot better now that I am thinking about calming myself down and keeping it set at the range that I play best at. Sometimes I get too aggressive and fall into bad habits, I will try to keep myself in the same safe range or position that doesn't risk my health bar for a bit more damage
Justin’s hand motion game is on point
I started winning matches when I embraced the lame. Still suck but it makes a difference
I'm an aggressive player, but I've always thought lame/ defensive playstyles were cooler. I have no clue why, but I'm trying to transition my playstyle into that. Thanks for this vid.
Coming back to watch this heat again
No matter who I play, I always end playing like that, I just can't help it. It forces me to relax too.
As an Ultimate player, I don't necessarily like the neutral game being mash-y, where it's basically a question of 'who gets to do their stuff first?' It feels almost random at times, both players just trying to guess or 'react' (98 ms input delay) to their opponent's next option with no real emphasis on spacing or even whiff punishing at times.
Applying your rules to Ultimate completely changes the neutral game and decision making in the best way possible. I no longer feel like the neutral game is just two angry bulls charging at each other, and instead it feels like my opponent is the angry bull charging at me, and I'm patiently waiting for an opening. I no longer feel like I have to *mash* and I think that's what matters. Most players agree with the notion that Ultimate is a game where you mash, but you don't need to. You just need to know what your opponent *will* mash, and playing lame is arguably the best way to look at that.
The fact that I'm applying this to Joker of all characters makes this so enlightening for me.
"Chill! Walk 'em down, look for some patterns." Justin Wong 2019
Good to see that you know what's up, because Joker only has one move that's safe to mash (back air). He really doesn't attack much at all, because he's so small and so fast vertically that your opponent has no choice but to hit you with moves. And those moves might whiff, and Joker has some DEADLY whiff punishes off grab, down tilt, nair etc.
It's like how lots of magic the gathering players don't like control decks. Their purpose is to deny what the enemy is doing and defend from their attacks. I love that playstyle and that how I play fighting games as well :D
Totally understand your point of view
Do I take the throw against grapplers?
Great vid. Love the point about avoiding gamble situations when you have the lead.
Thanksnfor this video Jwong. I'm sharing this with Smash Ultimate players.
This is great advice. Nobody focuses on neutral. It's all combos all the time. Personally, I think it's the only way to play SFV.
Great vid man i love playing lame too! I think i just enjoy the fact of seeing all that your opponent can throw at you then block/counter it and go yeah anything else you got. No? Ok i win.
I've got a really aggressive playstyle even with grapplers I find my self compelled to charge in so I'll definitely be implementing this into my playstyle.
Every play style is different. Justin is explaining his defensive style, I'm sure there are many other pros who play more offensively you can also learn from.
This video is actually really helpful. Thank you Justin. Pls make more git gud content
Is a strategy you follow also in card game
Risk are thing that swing toward a 50% winprobability
When you are winning you avoid them when you are losing you try to swing it
Recoinasing in which of the two you find yourself is a very important skill
I love Playing lame bez it forces ur opponents to Respect u, play netural and footises .
I honestly enjoy ur style of play
Sup
Yeah it works. Im actually surprised myself. My win rate in SFV is improving. Thanks
This video has inspired me to hold back till the timer hits 0, thank you Justin.
I enjoy your style of play a lot.
Edit: Watching it and playing it, that is.
This is pure gold! Thank you Justin
Good video, man. I'm often known for lame play in a few games and this is a good breakdown of how to approach a few given situations mentally. What's next for me is learning how to agress better, not because I don't trust my safe play but because it's a valuable skill to be well rounded. Simply put, I want to know that I *can* approach if I want to.
While I hate late since my playstyle now that I look into it is VERY rush down or aggressive but if the guy is having fun I have to respect playing lame. Even now I'm thinking of how I can play lame with my character
Playing lame sucks, but if its in a competition... well you are there to win, so nobody should judge anyone.
He doesn't play lame,he plays patiently and smart, and I like that
Fantastic advice all around. Thanks for this!!
Even though I don’t play Street fighter this was definitely some good advice thank you brother
Thank you for the video. I tend to play lame as well.
Playing lame is the safest risk free option in fighting games especially when you HAVE THE LEAD....the only weakness when playing lame is when you are pushed to the corner by your opponent when doing it...which is why it makes sense that Justin said you always have to be calm and composed and stay at the center of the screen...getting trapped in the corner the way i see it is THE ONLY WEAKNESS IT HAS WHILE PLAYING LAME....
As a person who goes for zoning characters this shit speaks to me and why I love to zone
I learned turtle style from Justin in 2000.
Ive always been rushdown but now I have both. Hated adding it but I watched young Wong have ALOT of success playing lame.
Felt lame just watching this
I won't lie, I wasn't expecting you to be the defensive type Justin. Granted in a majority of fighting games, i'm a bit more aggro because I like putting pressure on my opponents. But the Art of "Lame" fighting seems really good for defensive. Now I gotta figure how to put that with Cammy and see how it goes.
But if I may suggest something, how about doing a stream sesh of different characters in the SF5 cast and showing ways you can be "Lame" with them. I'd think it'd be pretty cool to watch
Hey whaddaya know? He actually did this today. Ask and ye shall receive.
Finally I know Bubble Theory
Defense is the most skillful part of fighting games. Everyone wants to play rushdown and look flashy but perfect defense and patience is true mastery.