ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2024
- I'm taking a first look at the newly created Phoenix F256K 8-bit retro computer. // Kindly sponsored by my favorite PCB manufacturer PCBWay! www.pcbway.com/
Foenix F256K Homepage:
c256foenix.com/f256k/?v=3a52f...
Foenix F256K Shop Link:
c256foenix.com/product/f256k/...
Retro Badgeman Shop:
retro8bitshop.com/retrostore/...
F256K Videos from others:
Tail Recursive's Introduction to the F256K: • Introducing the Foenix...
8-Bit Wall of Doom's Introduction to SuperBASIC: • Foenix F256 SuperBASIC...
TIME STAMPS:
0:00 Introduction
1:18 A Look at the Outside
7:14 The FNX1591 Disk Drive
8:54 The Foenix Bible (aka the Manual)
10:20 A Look inside
12:01 Sponsor Message
12:39 Chips and Specs
17:39 Super BASIC
21:12 The Microkernel & Software Development
22:50 Future Plans
26:49 Where to buy?
28:32 Thank you & Good night
--------------------------------------------
MUSIC by FOCUS 10 focus10music.bandcamp.com
EQUIPMENT AND TOOLS I USE: kit.co/janbeta *
MERCHANDISE: janbeta.creator-spring.com
MASTODON: chaos.social/@janbeta
PATREON: / janbeta
KO-FI: ko-fi.com/janbeta
WEBSITE: www.janbeta.net
TWITCH: / thejanbeta
YT CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP: / @janbeta
Thanks for watching!
This video was sponsored by PCBWay.
The Foenix F256K and the FNX1591 were provided for review free of charge by Foenix Retro Systems.
* Stuff marked with "*" contains affiliate links. You don't pay anything extra and I get a little commission from everything you buy through the links (even if you buy something different there).
#JanBeta #Foenix #F256K #RetroComputing #NewRetroSystem #8bit #16bit #BASIC #PCBWay - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Two little corrections: The default installed memory on board is actually 512K, expandable with additional 256K if you add the RAM expansion cartridge. Also, the price is not Canadian dollars as I assumed but plain old USD. Sorry for my mistakes!
That makes it even less affordable 🙁
@@Colin_Ames Adjusting for inflation it's still a fraction of the price of an 8 bit micro when they were new. I remember when 16k x 8 bit DRAM cost $279 US. Not 16 megs, 16k. The 512k in this machine would have cost almost $9000 in 1978 when I upgraded from 16k to 32k. This isn't about making the lowest cost item, it's about making an authentic 8 bit item. If you want the cheapest thing possible, buy a PC.
@@Peter_S_ I understand this, and I was not critical of its price, as my original comment shows. However, my statement about it being even less affordable is true.
@@Colin_Ames The fact is that it's FAR more affordable (by 2x-3x) than an 8 bit micro was when 8 bit micros were new. It's already less than half the price of when this tech was new and you are complaining about affordability which is the same as complaining about the price.
Real dollars not Canadian.
A single person did this project? That's incredible.
It is very impressive indeed!
Stephanie is an AMAZING hardware designer/engineer.
Not really sure why all the hate is being directed at Jan for this. YES it is really expensive, but then maybe it's got a small audience which will mean a high price. All these computers are going to cost a pretty penny, Jan is just showing us the pros and cons. He's done similar for other devices. I like the repair videos, but I also like to see videos looking at this, so I don't think of shelling out more than a PS5 for something like this.
As unfair as it is, the "hate" is because these systems are by design, very limited, yet often cost as much as very capable, modern computers. At the same time, whilst they are reminiscent of computers we had in the '80s, not being based on any particular brand or model, they have no specific nostalgic draw. There are no existing software libraries or books exploring the intricacies of the hardware etc, nor large communities of users and forums. Compare this to old Atari, CBM, BBC, Tandy, MSX and Sinclair 8 bit computers etc. They're all available as emulators for free, they run on any PC, Mac or SBC, the software and books are usually downloadable for free, and large, vibrant communities exist for each. The Commander X16 has an emulator that's free... why buy really expensive hardware when you can experiencecit for free?At least the Agon II Light is only around 60 Euros.
@@another3997 there is a free emulator that emulates the F256 Jr now, and while I understand it's fun to explore paths that were well beaten ages ago, this lets you the opportunity to forge your way and make contributions that are significant
@@another3997 don't buy it then eh
@@stefanimal5257 I doubt many will.
@@another3997 There's an emulator for this too, as well as an SBC-only version that costs much less because it strips out the cost of the case and keyboard. Yes, it's expensive, and for my money I'd rather have a MiSTer, but there is definitely something here. In particular, the custom video chip is very capable and provides something that simple recreations of vintage micros can not. It's essentially an answer to "what would 80s hobby computing enhanced with modern technology look like". For people who would enjoy tinkering with a simple enough single-user machine they can completely understand and control while getting more modern conveniences and expanded video output and quality capabilities, this looks like an excellent choice. A ton of work went into this, so I understand the price given it has to be amortised over a small run.
What a lovely machine. I hope it sells well.
Crossing my fingers.
At $600+ it definitely will be a bestseller. It's just that I don't understand why the same $40 256KB RAM upgrade (sold separately) costs $45 when you add it to the F256K computer (where you choose the extra options).
@@AndreiNeacsu it's the tip !
@@AndreiNeacsu I think it comes in a cartridge case, while the cheaper one doesn´t (since it is in the ATX case anyway)
BBC Basic, C64 keyboard and sound commands ripped from the Oric-1 :) This is a Frankenstein 8-bit - love it!
Please do a series on this if you can. I think it's by far the most exciting of the current crop of retro computers.
ah.. not really there's some very fancy ones around these days, but no support. The best cheap one that's going to go places imho is the Picocomputer 6502
@@Jasonsadventures What do you mean by "support"?
@@mercster A lot of the custom 8 bit machines just get bought, sit on shelves and are never powered on or ever have software written for them. You need something very cheap and with good potential if you ever want to get anywhere. Needs to be 240p with a lot of sprite pushing potential imho.
@@Jasonsadventures yes, lack of eco system, and like this it pertending to be c64, but it not, so not c64 stuff is goingt to work, and your still not in any eco system pond, and if you every learn anything it only going to be of use we this machine, this now one else uses or has even heard of thing, evnen if it the best machine, out there?
@@dh2032 You got me thinking about all the 80s games companies who targeted multiple computers. All of those computers were as different as the current retro computers. I'm thinking there's nothing wrong with learning several different machines, especially as there were and are only a very few different CPU architectures in common use. There are also relatively few different BASIC dialects.
Cool design. I’d love to see it pushed to the limit.
Will it play Crysis?
I really love the design language on this. She did an excellent job on everything right down to the debug port! USB mini B is by far my favorite!
She could have vastly improved the design by not making it.
You know what the world doesn't need? Another new overpriced retro computer with no software available.
@@tarstarkusz it's your choice to buy one or not and honestly it does not effect you in any way so I guess it's up to you if you want to be upset about it. However, I got to ask this comment was from a month ago why even say anything at all, when the rest of the world is clearly moving on?
@@lindoran Is there something wrong with you?
Yeah, as a retro-computer enthusiast, this affects me. I have a right to comment just as you do. You want to be a suck-up, go right ahead. For me, I call it like I see it. The world does not need any new retrocomputers.
@@tarstarkusz I could ask the same question? Yes I'm autistic 100% there is something wrong with me, But thats not the point. Why pick my comment? I don't understand it. It was made a month ago, I can do nothing to solve your you dislike. Clearly I liked the video and the design language of the system. The only thing I can think is you wanted an argument. I hope you find what you are looking for elsewhere because it's late and quite honestly you won't find that from me. Take care.
@@lindoran It's called "social" media for a reason. Do you think there is a time limit for how long your comment has been there and when anyone can reply to it? A month is not a long time. I get replies from 10 year old comments.
I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you, I was adding a different perspective.
I am inpressed with what I see here. Very nice introduction. Hope to see some more advanced videos in the near future. Excellent video as always ...
I really like this project, it looks cute, and fun to use.
Shout out for the Star Trek reference on the wall (blue "days without accidents" poster)!!
I think you're the first person to spot the Star Trek reference right away! :D
Thanks, Jan. As always excellent and joib well done. I think I know where this year's entertainment budget is going.
Love the colours
Definitely!
They are so screaming ugly.
Looks a great little machine. Always love small wedge form factors (must be due to having a Plus/4 oh so many years ago) and this one has good looks without being garish but definitely being it’s own style.Stephanie and her software collaborators have made an interesting little retro box - can’t wait to find out more, so I hope Jan provides 😊
Great video, Jan, giving an overview of this little beastie - many thanks!
Apart from the in-line assembly, what made BBC Basic more useful than most was the FUNC() and PROC() commands which allowed using Functions (with return value) and Procedure (with no return value). Very powerful.
Unfortunately it's not possible for BBC BASIC to be legally ported over to any 6502-based machines at the moment. Seems like nobody is 100% sure who owns the rights to it, because they've changed hands so many times and the original paperwork is missing (or at least that's what I've read around various forums and groups).
@@OzRetrocomp I've got a copy of BASIC V (the Archimedes version) on a raspberry pi somewhere.
Func() and Proc() were from COMAL (another structured basic dialect with PASCAL elements), Bbc Basic had DefFn() and DefProc() and was based on Comal in turn. "American" Basic dialects like Quick Basic, True Basic, Ansi Basics ecc. were more in the FORTRAN style and used SUB rather then PROC
@@giuseppe74921 Didn't know that. Will look up COMAL at some point for a crack.
I was of course, comparing to the BASICs of the time/place e.g. UK home computers, specifically Sinclairs, Commodores and Tandy/Dragon - none of which had definable procedures/functions (just gosub, which, let's be honest, is terrible).
@@simmo1024 The Comal interpreter had several versions, there was a version for almost every computer from the c64 to the PC (i tried the Amiga version it is quite good). The problem was that it was not in the rom of 8bits computers (c64 ecc. so u had to have the cartdrige inserted if u had one, like Simons Basic, if u made a program, people using your program had to have the cartridge too, so it was not very useful). Also Comal made it too far from basic and too much toward Pascal (for example variabile assignements were done like in pascal/c with := so in some way it felt more like a new kind of interpreted language and not very much like Basic, i think it had some success only in its motherland, Sweden i think, as a teaching language in schools), bbc basic took lots of things from Comal but stil felt 100% like basic, it was very powerful and was in the rom of the computer, in Italy the Bbc master 128 was rebranded as Olivetti Prodest 128s, since Olivetti acquired Acorn in that period, and it was much advertised on TV, but it was not a great success since the C=64 had a massive base of users i think, and it was already Amiga time if I well remember, but i remember some "List" type-in computer magazines had some Archimedes and Olivetti Prodest 128s lbasic listings, and I thought wow, how elegant is this basic! In the magazines they often said it was the best basic and it was also very fast
(Sorry for my bad english and long post)
great video, great shirt, great computer! Jan your a great man! Would be nice to see more videos on this great computer
I'm working on a follow up at the moment.
It looks like a funky machine; interesting to see further videos on it.
How is it I've never heard a single peep about this system till today? This is amazing!
There wasn't a lot of "promotion" for the system yet, basically all mouth propaganda up til now. I hope the video gets it some well deserved attention. :)
This machine is really fascinating to me. I hope you do more videos on this computer. I want to get one of the higher end ones they have, but I just don't have that kind of money right now.
I've got one of these on order and I'm very much looking forward to receiving it.
Thank you for the great video.
I love the design of the pcb.
It looks like candy.
What I believe is really cool,
is that the logo of the title screen
mimics an old Arkanoid-level... : )
Cheers and best regards.
That case is gorgeous! Would love to have something compact like that for my Omega MSX.
I'm glad Stefany sent you a review unit. I had an idea that you might like to try out one of her systems. I originally recommended that she send you a GenX system a year ago, but the F256k ended up in production first I guess. Anyway, I'm glad to see you did a hardware review. Keep up the great work. I really enjoy your channel.
Thanks for presenting this super interesting computer to us! I don‘t understand why no body else is talking about it!
I also got one recently and I'm loving it as a tinkerer first with some limited 6502 assembly experience under my belt, thanks to the Ben Eater series of videos on the 6502 breadboard computer. This seems like a logical step (leap!) from that point.
Ben Eater is goood!!
It does seem like a very logical, and luxury step from a breadboard 6502. Hopefully a decent assembler/linker will be developed or is already available. As long as you have peek, poke, and call, a decent starter assembler can always be written in BASIC.
@@Peter_S_ I'm already set up with Visual Studio 2019, compiling and linking using 64tass, producing a .bin file that can be sent anywhere using the USB debug cable. the emulator has recently been improved to include a workable debugger with breakpoints
@@anybitfeverdreams Excellent! Being able to use something like Visual Studio to code on something like this is an amazing luxury! At Atari they used a VAX for a lot of the writing in a similar vein. As somebody who goes back to 1978 on 6502, this looks like a fun and well done system.
Great overview of the Foenix!
Loving the little form factor, looks fantastic.
Pretty cool system. I would not mind having one, but my house is overflowing with Retro Systems in need of space to setup.
Same here. :)
Wow ! This is the first new computer I have ever seen that has basic built into it ! Very nice !!!
The Agon light also has BBC basic built in.
Spectrum next also has basic built in
Another SuperBASIC? Looks interesting.
The BASIC on the QL was called SuperBASIC and included many of the powerful features found in BBC BASIC with a few of its own allowing new commands to be created by the user. Unfortunately due to hardware limitations and the ROM being optimised for compactness and not speed, it didn't run that quickly. It was still a very nice language.
I'll be interested to see how the new SuperBASIC compares with regards to features and specifications.
I love the look and design. Looks like it would be fun to use
Like the case and keyboard also the colors
that really takes me back, I got started on a TI-99 4a.
It's a little odd that the joystick ports don't support mice. Quadrature mice like the ones used on the Amiga and ST are purely digital devices, supporting them only requires a couple of hardware counters hooked up to the L/R/U/D lines on the joystick port.
Very impressive!
Stephanie beat me to it!! but kudos to her this is an excellent product, I couldn't have done a better job than this. If life permits I would love to make some demos in assembly for this in the future
That was fun to see a Jumpman reference inside the case.
Immaculate design 😘👌
would like to see more about this retro-themed computer
It's so cool!
Looks Fantastic and little like a 600 keyboard 🎹 layout😊
This is cool 😍🤩. I wonder how well this will sell and how many in the retro gaming/retro computing community will adopt this. I like stuff like this , so many hobbyist design retro computers just for fun but never release them in a commericalised format
this computer looks very fun, and i would love to try it out.
It is very fun to play with!
Thanks for showcasing this system as I had no idea about it at all. But just based on the specs alone it comes across so far to me like a more powerful PC Engine/Turbo Grafx 16. You get the rich FM sound and versatility of the OPL3, 16 million colors, multi-layered graphics, tile and bitmap mode with large sprites plus native hardware scrolling, and ample system/video memory to play with. I kinda winced at the price but it's definitely not unreasonable and understandable given it's grassroots production. I am interested to see any game examples if they are out there as I think this is a great system so far. 😃
Here is one:
th-cam.com/video/w_rBnjGTUyI/w-d-xo.html
The charm of the PC Engine being the restricted colour palette (512 colours) and the wavetable sound chip with full stereo panning, FM sucks unless it is from a Korg DS-8 or DX7 with good delay/reverb....
Cool modern 'retro' computer 👍♥️
The case and pcb design is great. Pcb components are placed not only functional but also asceticly. The red power switch looks similar to what I've ordered from Mouser. ;)
I envy you, able to playing around with this precious. ;o)
I've seen a few pictures of this on the various social media websites, so it was interesting to get a closer look and a peek inside. The graphics capabilities look very interesting, looks like you could make some really great looking pixel graphics and games on there. I'm definitely tempted to buy one, especially considering it's in CAD, which is a lot closer to AUD. Sadly, I just spent $700 Aussie dollary doos on a new pair of prescription sunglasses (not to mention the $1200 I spent on my new firewall just over a month ago!), so I think think this would have to wait. It's possible I could get in before orders close on this batch, but who knows when the next batch would be, or if they'll have to change it or increase the price.
I'm not a coder at all (and definitely not a 6502 assembler guy), but if I was then I'd seriously consider an F256K. Or maybe an F256 Junior if I couldn't stretch the funds... though the F256K is a _very_ good looking machine. Keen to see how the F256 ecosystem evolves as more of them get into the hands of more enthusiasts.
Se do live in a small world. Stephany is actually from my province in Canada.
This computer seems to be quite nice, powerful and sell though of.
Nice shirt Jan!
You got the toy!!!! Enjoy!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🖥️ *The Phoenix F256K is a new retro 8-bit computer with a classic form factor reminiscent of systems from the 80s and early 90s.*
01:23 ⌨️ *The keyboard design of the Phoenix F256K is similar to the Commodore 64 keyboard, featuring modern switches and custom keycaps.*
03:02 🏗️ *The computer comes in a high-quality resin-printed case and has an expansion slot for RAM upgrades and cartridges.*
04:23 🕹️ *It has standard Atari-style joystick ports compatible with common Atari joysticks and supports three separate fire buttons.*
05:45 🔄 *The Phoenix F256K offers various connectivity options, including USB, Wi-Fi, a headphone jack, and RCA audio output.*
08:53 💽 *It supports a 3.5-inch floppy disk drive compatible with the Commodore 1581, providing additional storage options.*
12:51 🧠 *The computer features a W65C02S processor, expandable RAM, and integrated graphics and sound chips.*
18:21 🖥️ *The Phoenix F256K boots instantly into Super BASIC and supports modern features like syntax highlighting and indentation.*
23:49 🎮 *The system can display 64 sprites simultaneously, has smooth scrolling, and includes an inline assembler for programming.*
26:47 💰 *The Phoenix F256K is available for purchase at $595 and is made to order due to its low volume production.*
27:12 📦 *The computer features a 3D printed resin case and can be ordered from the website, with the order period extended to mid-July.*
27:54 🖥️ *There's an emulator available for the Phoenix Junior, a similar system, which allows you to experiment with the system's capabilities on your modern computer.*
28:20 🌟 *The Phoenix F256K is part of a growing trend of new retro systems inspired by the computers of the 80s and 90s.*
retrotechlab.com
As soon as it can run C64 games and programs it'll be very interesting. Thanks for the great video!
Looks amazing, I want that case for raspberry pi!
its so cool that there is a market for this kind of new-retro-pcs, but as i - obiviously - havent used one of this in my childhood my nostalogia-nerve isnt tickled at all.
This isn't really aimed at people such as yourself, any more than an industrial welding robot is aimed at someone joining a couple of steel bars. I find it strange when people go around saying their not interested in something that they have no interest in. I'm not interested I fishing... but I don't go around commenting on fishing rod reviews. 😂
@@another3997 😂😂😂
@@another3997 Fishing does not damage ecology as much as wasting irrecuperable resources and energy on useless toys.
Nice!
Funny, that even this have basic name "Super Basic" I made early 90's c-64 basic extension, and I named at same. Then I realise later that Sinclair QL Basic is also Super Basic :D
I am indifferent to the Foenix system for a few reasons, but Its certainly worth a in depth review.
All through the video I was thinking to myself "I have to get one of these!"
I mean, just look at it - the retro/modern styling it's beautiful. Plus a proper keyboard. What's not to want!?
So off I trotted to the website to purchase one thinking I'd be $350 - $400 lighter...
NO! At least $800 for the version I wanted.
Yes, it's a great looking machine but there's absolutely no way that I could justify paying that!
Ah, well. That's me back to my Agon Light and my Pitube accelerated BBC Masters.
Looks like a fun machine to play around on
Great design and peace of work. But what part of this computer is retro? 6502 which can be implemented in on-board fpga?
Love the video and love the computer. Would defo buy one if I had the spare cash
As an old C64, C128 and Amiga lover and owner, I was really confused at least until the middle of the video what the F256K actually IS given all the similarities that it has with the Commodore 8bitters. An Emulator? Something standalone? ...then in the middle of the video I felt like I have to investigate, since Jan prolly wouldn't tell, as carried away as he got. And then I didn't bother continuing to watch at THAT price. Agreed, the hardware is very well built. But it's nuts if you've got your old machines readily available and working, like me....
So, next time: An Introduction PLEASE! @Janbeta
Sorry if it wasn't clear from the video what the Foenix actually is. I thought "new retro computer" would pretty much give it away but obviously "retro" can mean lots of things these days. ;)
This looks like what the Commander X16 should have been, entry level $200 for a motherboard only version you can slap into a mini-itx case. F256K is kind of pricey at almost $600 though but it looks incredibly well put together. Main thing is these are available to purchase and have lots of upgrades and tinkering you can do because all the glue logic is FPGA based.
yes it's real hard where, but, but for the price, you would get a lot of hardware, to run a emulator/simulator of your classic 70's, 80's,, 90's machine on, it on going to be a real machine, but at least going to be almost 100% compatible, to the really thing, and changing you mind, going with different model is just software download away? and some of the emulator even run as the system OS, and and with a bit extra work could just boot from USB memory/drive think, and could even be just plugged any machine that will just power up, monitor and keyboard, (and mouse if your chosen emulator needs one)?
Fails in the same as the X16, the price. But is a really nice system, no doubt.
At least the X16 has a community, tons of software will be (and are already) written for it and. The price will fall the 2nd/3rd gen. I don't see nohing coming for projects like Foenix or Picocomputer 6502. Still very impressive work, though.
@@rafaelmmartinez9170 Isn't the X18 FPGA-free? I don't want fat, entitled FPGAs in my 8-bit computers.
Interesting system. I would be interested in the FNX 6809 option for it as I really like the 6809. I'm currently working on a personal project that uses a 6809 system that will in to an Altoids mint tin.
Grooooooooovy!
It is!
The DVI looks like it's a way to use HDMI without the licensing..... (waiting for you to point that out....)
Yup, I guess so. Plus, it also provides the analog output for VGA.
DVI is a perfectly valid technology to use on a computer, it is separate to HDMI... so what's the problem?
I like the drive its seems to me very flexible with other systems if you can change the kernel any time...
Curious to see just how many of these retro style devices the market can handle as there are a good many which are all equally capable of doing exactly the same thing.
They will all be niche products produced in small batches based on orders. None of them will be mass produced. So in a way not really part of "the market" as we'd normally think about it.
@@andrewdunbar828 True, which is why I think it's great that there are so many choices out there now, along with more coming down the pike. It reminds me of how interesting and exciting the 8-bit era was 40 years ago, only on a smaller scale where the people producing these machines have realistic expectations of their sales potential.
Yes, beautifully designed as they may be, I'll stick to a Raspberry Pi that allows me to write just about any programming language I like and has a great choice of supported peripherals.
That said, I would be very proud to be able to create a system like the F256K. It's a great accomplishment.
Very nice alternative for Commander X16
This machine seems wayyyy better thought out and designed than the Commander X16 project. Love seeing the custom integrated keyboard wedge case design rather than dumb unimaginative modern PC form factor stuff.
The current X16 form factor is just the first stage design, the final stage will suit any form factor.
@@Ffinity + the x16 was made for a different set of requirements. Besides, these are 8 bit machines, to me at least, aesthetics are not important.
I agree the X16 is so far away from how it was originally envisaged. This on the other hand is flexible, familiar and attractive looking.
@@prk55 No it isn't, it was always going to be a 3 stage evolution.
The Foenix has both. The JR comes in a mini itx form factor.
I noticed some criticism of the price. A Sinclair Spectrum cost around £149 in 1983 which equates to around £647.61 today. A Commodore 64 was around £200 which is £863.47 today. Both needed an external cassette player and a television. For the Spectrum you could get cassette players for around £25, or less, £107 today, and televisions would obviously vary depending on screen size and whether it was colour or monochrome. I couldn't find a price but ours was a rental and a few pounds a month. In those days ordinary people couldn't afford to buy. I believe that puts it into perspective although I would go for a Pi400 and some emulators to play old games. I love my A500 mini for playing old Amiga games.
Great video. Why does the WDC65C02 CPU run at 6.29Mhz? This chip is speced to run at up to 14MHz and freely overclocks.
The CPU runs @ 1/4 of the Video lock 25.175MHz which allows the system to implement a shared memory system like the C64. If the CPU was running full speed we could not do it then we would need two different buffers shared with FIFOs and it becomes lot less efficient.
foenix is the kings class of new retro systems. 🥰
The 6809 was used in Tandy's Color Computers, and although it was considered an 8-bit processor it did have a 16-bit register. I just mentioned it, because you said you could swap the 6502 with it.
If you squint into red and black it looks very Oric Atmos
The angled vents immediately gave me an Atari XE/ST vibe. And I kinda don’t like SuperBASIC not having a prompt…or is that an option?
As a practicing design engineer from back in day too, seeing a 6502 combined with that Alterix FPGA is like puting a Lada engine into a Porsche chassis... Brutal. That being said, sure looks sexy!
I would love a keyboard case like this for my Agon Light. I currently have a homemade Frankenstein's monster setup.
I love this idea, however at that price, I would need more incentive to buy it, than just the prospect of easily writing BASIC programs. I've said it before: A system lives or dies on the strength of its software library. If people were to start writing some incredible games that I wanted to play, that would be likely to entice me to want one.
looks so much better than other monstrosities out there.
other monstrosities? like what? ... sorry I'm new to the scene but I'm interested in retro stuff
@@joel230182 I think they meant another stupid toy named "Commander X16"
X16 is in process of shipping first 100 units and just landed a donation from a wealthy CEO of an Austin-based company that sells AI products to enterprise customers - he's a fan of the 8-bit Guy and the X16 and is funding the next round of 1000 units. Guess he doesn't see it as a stupid project.
@@TheSulross It's considered a stupid project because it didn't end up being what it was supposed to be. It's all nice and well to change the specs over time, but it's dumb to pitch a $50 machine made out of off-the-shelf parts, and end up with a $500 machine that still relies on rare old chips (and that's after they stripped away the feature creep).
Eh... I'll stick to actual retro computers rather than brand new machines that use the same old CPUs anyway.
@@Waccoon 50 Dollars was something he maybe mentioned all the way in the beginning? I never saw that amount. There's a lot of stuff being said about it that he actually had to correct, but it seems to stick. What I do agree with is that he use of old chips is a mistake, I get that he wants to keep it authentic, but I believe he added a FPGA anyway for a few things, better to then simply go all the way and make it fancy in another way.
cool thing. does it take prg files from the c64 ?!
FujiNet also works on the Foenix F256K :)
tell me more!
@@anybitfeverdreams well, it shows up as a standard IEC device, so the exposed 4 disk drives, the network device, and the printer device are all usable.
A good overview. I like the looks of the system, but the price is a little outside of my budget for such a device. I understand why it’s expensive and am not criticizing it for that, I just can’t afford one.
I’d Like to hear more about the programming language on it.
Are there any tools available for this yet? You know, paint programs, compilers, etc?
There are! On-system, there is a sprite editor/manager/animation-helper, tilemap manager, and font editor. Not sure about a full-screen paint program, though.
For your modern system, there is an emulator, plus a library for compiling C (in CC65) and settings for assembly (in any assembler, but 64TASS or the WDC assembler are common choices among the Foenix crowd.)
Nice system, but I don't get why there are so many chips inside that could be easily implemented by that Cyclone IV FPGA.
I guess the idea is to have original dedicated chips (like the CPU and the OPL3 chip) and only use the FPGA as a replacement for what would have been custom chips in a vintage system.
After reading your comment I did a top level reverse engineering and I see things very differently as a hardware designer. 27 chips with 8 or more pins; most of the chips are for special purpose memories (devices: 5), specialized I/O (devices: 14) or level shifting (devices: 5) to/from the FPGAs. The remainder are 2 FPGSs and the CPU. Most of those are special purpose where you're not going to just place the function in an FPGA. FPGAs make lousy real time clock chips for example. You want a Cyclone to act like a Wolfson CODEC or Max232? Nope. It's also beyond pointless to use an FPGA for FLASH storage here. Cyclone IV is a family of devices with members ranging from cheap to almost $1000 per chip. Look up the EP4CGX150DF31I7. Here it obviously made sense to implement part of the design in the Efinix FPGA or it would have simply gone into the Cyclone used. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Honestly I don't see any other chip besides the CPU itself which could be placed in the FPGA if you want to buffer the signals. If you want to split hairs then the keyboard interface 6522 could have been emulated at the cost of the I/O pads on an FPGA. The I/O cost likely makes it cheaper externally with a 6522 and you get 6522 drive/robustness which the delicate Cyclone lacks. Please cite specifics if you disagree.
not replace every chip (surely not RAM) but the Cyclone IV would be powerful enough to implement CPU, video and audio of the F256K system. Consider the MiST device (Cyclone IV based, dating several years ago): it does emulate a whole Commodore Amiga with 68000, and its custom chips.
@@Peter_S_But the point is still valid. Once you start using FPGAs, the use of separate chips for various tasks becomes more difficult to justify. Why not just use ONE suitable FPGA for CPU, sound and graphics etc, rather than several chips? The cost and complexity is massively reduced, resulting in a cheaper product, easier to produce and easier to maintain.
@@another3997 LOL, no it's not valid. How many FPGA based products have you designed? I'm going to guess zero. Tell me if that's incorrect. I already pointed out cost vs FPGA size. I also pointed out it's not economical to emulate big memories. I also pointed out that 14 of the chips are special purpose including analog and involve I/O the FPGA simply cannot do. 5 more are level shifters which are always necessary, and the rest are memories, CPU, and FPGA. FPGAs have their place, and here you can see what that place is if you wish to learn.
Similar to Oric sound commands Zap, Ping, Shoot and Explode.
It has a WDC65C02, which is a super expanded MOS6502, so when can it run commodore64 binaries on it?
Oh! That is perfectly styled to appeal to me! :D Diagonal slots like the _best_ 80s designs (XD) and the key colors are fun too. Oh there's a matching disk drive! Now I have to get one! hehehe
512K flash storage! My old Ataris supported 180K _disks!_ lol I'm not complaining. :) I didn't have a disk drive back in the day, but I recently learned just how small 180KB is when using an emulator. I think I could get used to 512KB internal storage. :D
Hopefully there will be games made/ported very soon! I could see some C64 titles on that thing!
Very cool project, but couldn't that Cyclon replicate all of the functionalities of the chips present on the PCB? The IV go up to like 150K LEs which would be plenty. Would likely make parts sourcing easier as well. I guess I'm a bit confused by the design.
They probably wanted to go with 0 custom ASICS / FPGAs, but then gave up when they realized there isn't any off the shelf 8-bit video chips like there used to be back in the MSX days. Still though, the sound design confuses me, if they have an OPL chip then they don't need a second fantasy sound chip (emulated by the second fpga)... Also... Two FPGAs should definitely not be necessary... So yeah... definitely questionable.
@@BrainSlugs83 You definitely don't speak like somebody who has a history of hardware design. There's definitely plenty of reason to use multiple FPGAs in a design. Exactly why would you contend otherwise?
It is because, it is not my philosophy to integrate everything in 1 FPGA like the Mister or Mega65 or any new retro computer. The philosophy is to try to bring the whole retro experience, the feel, the look, the interaction. There would be no point into doing that, it would be the most boring thing to do and if it was the case I would have never got involved in this because anybody can get themselves an eval board and make a Misterboard or get a Raspi. Some people find those interesting, good for them, that's not what my goal was and still to this day.
And... I totally understand people that don't get it either, in the end, either you love it or you don't! ;) Cheers
@@stefanyallaire That makes a lot of sense. And you're absolutely right, I'm more in the "make everything as tightly integrated as possible" fraction. I always have to smile when I see projects that use an ESP32 via serial to give their Arduino UNO network connectivity, thinking "you could have implemented your entire project on that ESP" 😅. I guess that also explains why there are two FPGAs. Basically, assume they serve one function each. Again very very cool project!
Is it compatible with c64 or any other vintage 8 bit computers?
Great to see these new systems built with actual hardware, rather than relying on an FPGA or Raspberry Pi for emulation.
can these systems of there's play dos games like doom?
Computers used to be so kool looking. So beautiful. Disks drives adapters. All those little bits. I guess they are still good looking but I feel RETRO was the way!!!
Nice new 8 bit retro computer, $600 is a lot of money for just the basic model, but I understand it's expensive and takes a lot of work to get something like this into production. My concern is mostly that the community will shrink very fast and 12 months from now almost everyone lost interest. Just like the big retro releases like Spectrum Next and the MEGA65. Whereas with something like the original C64, there will always be a community.
Keep in mind, this one with the wedge/keyboard case is the "fancy" one, the "basic model" is only $200.
@@frixyg2050 I don't really have a problem with the cost, I think the one you refer to is the board only version with no case and no keyboard. I was more comparing to the maxed out version that goes for $1,349 in their shop. My concern is how much time will you spend with this before it ends up on a shelf never to be powered on again compared to an original C64/C128/Amiga etc. It really depends on the size of the community.
Cheers,
Jake
$600 CAD. Idk if that makes much of a difference, though.
i dont think the spectrum next community has shrunk there will be about 5000 new user going to that community ion just a few months and they are also producing a lot of games for that machine. Is probably the most successful retro computer remake.
👍🏻
It'd be neat if those disk drives became a popular thing, would be fun being able to use 3.5" disks on a C64 at some point, and yes I know there's all those gadgets to load stuff off flash carts & SD cards, buuuuuut, some of us love our physical media and the sounds they make when operating... :D
It's been possible to use 3.5" disks on a C64 for 36 years.
Time to grab you a 1581!
@@Ffinity & @BrainSlug83 - I'm aware of the 1581, have been for some time, but I'm also aware of how insane the asking prices for them are due to their rarity, hence the thoughts of the DIY route, unless I won the lottery and money became no object, there's no chance I'd ever own one...
@@twocvbloke There are DIY 1581 options.
@@Ffinity Those are kits though, not a "let's work this out, reverse-engineer things, hook it up, experiment with stuff and see how it goes" kind of thing, besides, the kits only relatively recently came out and I'd been looking at the idea for some years before they appeared...
an someone tell me what the use case would be for this?
Tinkering with a brand new boot to basic machine. Writing software for it. Some people would say “for fun”.