Thank you for the shout out Zygrene. As a friend and small business, I sincerely appreciate it! Speaking and working on cars from a HUGE amount of Gen2 owners, here's what I've gathered regarding the Oil starvation/ RTV leading to engine failures issue: It's a combination factors. High volume oil pump, smaller sump capacity (1qt less than FA20), no oil baffling (sustained high G turns), RTV blocking the pick up, internal oil system design (MotoIQ did an article on it where the main/rod bearings are non primary for the oil system, good reason we see so many bearing failures/rod knock) One other thing to factor in is how Toyota vs Subaru deal with warranty claims. Subaru by far is way more forgiving - during my time as a Subaru dealer tech, I've seen how easily Subaru will cave in to "good will" a warranty claim or buy back a car that doesnt really have an issue. Here are some personal examples Buy back: 60,000 miles Impreza due to multiple warranty issues (normal Subaru quirks) Buy back: Subaru Legacy the owner states the sunlight sensor would not turn his headlights on "fast enough" Good will: WRX 15,000 miles clutch failure. Clutch job parts and labor got good willed. Keep in mind this car had bald tires, little to no brake pads, and a body shop receipt that said the car had been in an accident with frame damage.
@@shawnconary6810 Thanks James Bond. Sincerely appreciate it. As a small business making the RTV videos is really taxing, but I know it helps the community, especially the data collection
Hate to say it, but in Canada dealers are entirely unforgiving. If they can't charge you for it, they're not interested in helping you. $165 CAD / $120 USD for an OBD2 scan to pull codes, before quoting you for the maintainence itself
This was fun! Thanks for having me on, gents. Also, just to clarify on Liqui Moly - I put a bottle of MoS2 in the BRZ after every oil change - it's a nice cheap safety net if oil pressure drops or there's a couple seconds of starvation at high-g.
Hey Topher, I saw this and thought you guys might be interested. It's a pretty good scientific analysis of the oiling issues of the BRZ. th-cam.com/video/4Jk5WTWoqt4/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for getting together and talking about this. Having bought my ZD8 mostly to have fun and to learn to drive fast, it's been pretty stressful to watch this saga unfold. As you all said, there are risks associated with tracking any car, but the frequency of catastrophic failures in the media has been concerning for me. With the internet being the way that it is, people love to present speculations about the root cause(s) as fact (RTV, oil pan baffling, oil temps, driver error, etc.) with very limited information - but ultimately even if there is an unusual number of failures relatively to other commonly tracked cars, owners collectively cannot make an accurate and sound conclusion based on the existing data points. So it was nice to hear some more level-headed people talk about the situation. Something that I'm very curious about but I think none of you brought up is the spec racing series for this car run by Toyota. The GR86 Cup cars have full aero, slicks, race suspension, etc. My understanding is the engine/oiling system is lightly modified, including an oil cooler and different oil pan, but I don't have many details. If you guys could somehow figure out what they've changed there, it would be super helpful, since that info isn't public as far as I know. I assume they wouldn't risk having multiple cars blowing up every race, so I'd love to know how the manufacturer thinks it's best to modify the car for racing. Unless they all just get frequent engine replacements, in which case idk... I'll probably just sell the car. lol
Search GR86 prototype baffle testing and you'll get a couple really informative videos on what is happening and why. It's only on big, right hand turns with high G forces like on a road track. An aftermarket baffle/oil pan/pick-up tube will fix the issue, once one is finally figured out and produced. There really isn't any worry about street driving or even auto-x with fast turns, mostly just the road tracks. No clue why Toyota/Subaru haven't implemented this fix on their new cars, they know it's an issue. It's something that has happened to all boxer engine cars, up until a certain point.. then they fixed it. Not sure why they didn't use the fixed pans/baffle on this car..
For reference to Subaru, I had a 2018 STI Type-RA (I've had a BRZ in the past too) that had 4th gear go out on its first and only track day with 4k miles. Warranty was denied, mostly due to the AOS and 91 octane tune I had. But they did actually help with paying for almost all of the claim ("Good Will") when I had the dealer call SOA for assistance.
@@zhechengliu387 To the Gen2 BRZ yes but I’m not sure I would say way slower… Depends on so many variables. My last event I was faster than a couple but again driver, tires, mods, etc… all make a difference
the layout of the engine being horizontally opposed has nothing to do with the increase in engine failures, if there is adequate oil pressure, there is adequate lubrication regardless. the flat 4 design if anything, would actually lend itself to prolonged lifespan due to the way the opposing pistons cancel out the others vibration. i feel the number one reason these are failing is the unique ability for these cars to hold high g forces that rival much more serious performance cars, but it still just has an economy car oiling setup. you wanna keep pulling those crazy Gs you need to go with a custom oiling setup, dry sump, or at the VERY least a modified pickup and baffle. these are not track ready. they are track CAPABLE, but they need the oiling modifications to keep up with sustained abuse.
22:00 No black or white 43:00 What Subaru/Toyota should look at 53:50 *Don’t worry about it if you’re NOT tracking your car* 55:00 Inherent flat 4 problem? 🤔 58:00 Porsche IMS issues 1:03:30 Don’t track it unless you can afford a new engine 😅
This was a really good one you guys! Thanks for covering this issue in depth and offering suggested approaches. I've been really tempted to upgrade to a newer GR86 or BRZ but due to these issues I've been sticking with my 1st gen BRZ for track duty. Supercharged, heavily modified, and after 6 years of occasional track time still holding up quite well engine-wise.
Thanks for this conversation, just realized I'm subbed, will have to jump on more of your videos. This long form convo was sorely needed on this topic. BRZ gen 2 owner (ugh wish there was an easier way to search like GR86 for us than "Gen 2" or year model lol
I love the old school love: crappy drivers are safe! I do think the new oil pick up is designed to handle more blockage before starvation is a problem. I think every car will have some amount of RTC in the pick up. The new timing chain baffling in the 2nd gen is probably a step in the right direction but probably not sufficient for the high G modded aggressive trackers. I am hoping stock or stock plus mods are relatively safe as that is where I will likely keep mine during the warranty period. I love the discussion guys, and I do appreciate the personal tips like Molybdenum oil additive and Kangaroo rotor tech 4000 even though I am too crappy a driver to need them. I do find the PS4 tires are too grippy for hooning around on the street and perhaps I might look for a set of primacy tires/wheels to goof around on or track in the future.
@zygrene - owned my 21 ND2 and after numerous events, canyon carving (touge driving) and 2 dozen road trips all over the US... I've had almost no issues. Most things I've run into are minor hiccups at best. I'm modded almost to the max for the platform but still NA no force induction yet. It's saddened me to see the issues on the current gen 86/brz. As a long time viewer of your channel I hope you guys find ways to get passed the current issues for tracked cars. Currently at 34k miles on my ND2 btw and I drive the car very spirited.
Great podcast, thanks! Chris is pretty spot on. The car was tested and certified around the grip of its factory tires (and overall package). Not all manufacturers have built-in headroom on their stock components that can survive the mods you throw on the car - could be powertrain, drive-line, or suspension components. Seen many different parts fail on cars when modded and pushed beyond their limits. Overall a pay to play mentality. Also agree with the DBA4000 front rotors. Pretty much solved my pad smearing issues.
Could not agree more. 44:30 though with equally recorded evidence that the car was not modified. How can a manufacturers like Subaru or Toyota be expected to warranty for track purposes modified cars when Porsche, arguably much more focused, requires even model specific N-rated tires for their warranty. Let alone allow non OEM mods.The envisaged pressure or damage to Subaru’s or Toyota’s reputation by posting on social media unjustified claims will perhaps cause them to pull out of this niche. Then we will all not be able to experience and enjoy cars like that any more. Enjoy them stock or bear the risks.
I understand what you mean but Toyota and Subaru know their market. They aren’t dumb they made a 2nd generation of this car because of its success with the gen 1 they clearly know the car wouldn’t be as popular without the vast aftermarket support for the car. Knowing that, they should expect their average consumer for the car to do a little bit of mods. Putting on some wider stickier tires with some nice wheels and coilovers has never been a void of warranty. Ppl aren’t running slicks on these cars and breaking axles it’s just clearly a very bad engineering fault by Toyota and Subaru who clearly advertise the car as a budget friendly track enthusiast car. But now that their engines are blowing up due to their own engineering fault they want to say it’s our fault and retracting their advertised statesman to say it’s a road car not meant for track use. They just need to take accountability
This is a great video. Sad to hear so many cases of blown tracked engines makes me worried about mine. Im doing my 7th and 8th track days at Sonoma this weekend. I have oil cooler, RS4 tires and I am tuned on ethanol with a few bolt ons. So far the car has 22K miles and i do changes every 4k miles and i use motul 5w30.
Search GR86 prototype baffle testing and you'll get a couple really informative videos on the subject. It shows exactly when the oil pressure drops. Eventually, an aftermarket baffle/oil pan will be made that completely fixes the issue but until then, I personally wouldn't touch a track with it.
I think it's worth keeping an eye on the Toyota GR86 Cup cars that add a bunch of supporting mods to an otherwise stock (internally at least) FA24 engine. From the specs various sources reference I did not see a mention of any conversion to a dry sump oiling system, just an oil cooler. An article written by NBC Sports talking about the racing series and the cars specifically points this out: "The cars mostly are customized to help manage the heat - the stock versions aren’t designed to handle the oil that sloshes around in the high-speed left- and right-hand turns on the road and street courses of the GR Cup schedule". Hopefully from the cup cars both Subaru and Toyota can collect some R&D data to improve future iterations of the street car. I think overall this hurts Toyota's reputation more given they are the brand people think of for reliable cars and I am not surprised about the rumors that they would move to an all Toyota platform with the 3cyl turbo hybrid setup.
Super Taikyu is another racing series to keep an eye on where the Twins are prevalent in the ST-4 class and both Subaru and Toyota running cars in the ST-Q class to experiment with synthetic fuels. Toyota's entry is notably different using a Toyota 1.4L 3 cyl turbo rather than Subaru's FA24. Not sure what setup is allowed in terms of engine and supporting mods (like oiling upgrades) for this series. Also: the comment that went popular here by a person claiming to be affiliated with one of the teams in the GR Cup North America series describing engine failures by their own team and other teams is no where to be found anymore 🤨
Informative. Y’all have increased my stress level (again) for sure. I’m a bit with Topher on the merits, even if closer to Fenton’s driving style. PS4’s on stock suspension is good fun, whereas a cup 2 on more aggressive spring rate with couple degrees of negative camber up front prob asking for it with wet sump. More proof how this chassis punches well above its weight. Still too early and anecdotal but definitely smoke there as more cars have been sold and higher mileages recorded (anyone been updating that spreadsheet which was floating around documenting all the FA24 failures?). For now, 5w30 every 3k (keep doing the blackstone analysis and measure silicone as well) oil cooler and fingers crossed. I love the car so much already. Such a sucker punch issue but not gonna freak as well. Keep these videos coming guys!
i did a bunch of autocross events with some beefy suspension and tires on my 19' 86, and i loved the chassis so so much but the engine just scared me too much, i never felt settled in enjoying the car because i was too anxious-- SO i am now a proud nd2 owner! I love the car, i just dont love the power train.
Regular people should really have 0 concerns... I think you guys are on point with most of the points, but still leaving out some very important factors (or not putting enough emphasis on some): 1) The GR86/BRZ (gen2) is a very a very, very popular sports car. Even the prevous gen was popular and over it's lifetime the sales of the model had matched that of all Porsche models combined during the same period of time - what do we learn from this? - This particular car is exposed to more attention than most of the other brands and has a higher exposure to more hardcore amateur drivers due to the scale 2) The amount of people tracking the car more heavily is definitely proportionally higher than on other car models. Other cars are more expensive most of the time, so who buys them? Mostly people that are really rich and care more about showing off and keeping them ppf'ed and scratch free than getting the actual max out of their car on track. So the percentage of the people actually doing track days so frequently is most likely much lower for each model than it is for the GR86/BRZ... While most of the GR86/BRZ owner also don't track their cars or only track very occasionally, there's still a higher number people who find the car like made for the track and therefore track it. 3) Adding on top of point 2... Some people do consider the GR86 a cheap car and therefore a good track option. They don't necessarily want to do the best maintenance for the car, but are rather focused on the bang for buck aspect and trying to squeeze out more of the car or use it to learn proper RWD and some maybe even have a plan of selling it at a not too distant point in time in the future. So most likely people will try to save on maintenance, especially if they track the car a lot. Quite logical actually, if one tracks the GR86 1-2 times a year will probably go for an oil change before every track day, while those who do 10-20 times a year will probably skip some as it costs extra money and time... 4) With mods to improve track performance - so better brakes, engine cooling and tyres people are basically able to do longer and more intensive sessions than without those mods. This way the rest of the car parts still are put under a higher load for a longer time than with stock parts, resulting in more intensive track days overall vs casual people who track their car without mods. 5) G-forces in corners - I think this might be one of the most imporant points. People are noticing that the problems are more common with high-G-force scenarios as you mentioned. But the point you guys probably forgot to put emphasis on is that this car indeed, especially due to it's light weight and fairly good aero, even stock, hits higher G-forces. Other sports cars are usually heavier and therefore have worse cornering and usually see less G-forces in the corners. Some of you even say that you are hitting 1.2G's in corners after a few mods on the car, which literally matches the G's that super expensive supercars do. So the problem is not the engine itself, but the fact that this car is put under higher G-forces due to it's superior cornering ability, while still not having the luxury of using the most expensive components as the price of this car has to remain affordable. So the engine is not a problem, it's the fact that this car is faster in corners than other cars and is therefore experiencing more strain than other cars... With all those factors combined I'm pretty sure that this car is probably more robust overall than other sports cars and at least as good as the more expesnive cars regarding durability, especially considering the engine (because it doesn't have a turbo - as a GOOD mechanic if you don't know what I'm referring to). And considering that the GR86 is not meant to be a race car (and race cars also have a very limited lifetime on every part of theirs and the parts have to be replaced regularly while sometimes not even meeting the expected lifetime), it's a sports car generally meant to be driven by drivers who only casually go on-track, maybe 1-4 times a year and don't go pushing these cars above their intended limits or participate in race tournaments. Having said that, I still don't like how Toyota handles the cases and in my opinion they should still honor the warranty cases unless the drivers really participate in some higher profile events, which would classify the use as regular racing, rather than track driving. It's their car and they should appreciate their customers for buying it. Most won't track anyway... BUT it should be understood by regular people, that if you take care of you car, don't modify it too much, are cautious and track it only occasionally, then you really should not be concerned about the problem, because other cars would probably have more problems when put under the same conditions. (if you like this comment please vote up so that the comment doesn't die)
Thanks for this one, guys. I think you hit it on the nail. It's not that much an RTV issue, as it is a lubrication issue when tracking these cars. Slightly grippier tyres, like the PS4S, on stock suspension, or coilovers with stock tyres should be OK. But coilovers and grippy tyres will generate too much G-force in the corners, starving the oil system. And this: G-forces are shown on the dashboard in certain modes, meaning that the dealer can see how much lateral G's owner pulled on the track. So use common sense, and be careful !
@@ruturaj47 , Hi Bro. I ran Ohlins and Michelin PSS on an MX-5, a few years back. The lateral G limit difference with stock was massive, so I wouldn't risk it on a BRZ/GR86. Also, the stock suspension on the twins is really good, so I'd spend my dollars on tyres, exhaust and brakes ...
@@didierleurquin3693 thanks bro, I was thinking about coilovers because of few reasons, I wanted 15mm drop, 3° camber and less understeer than BRZ is set for and slightly more comfort on daily. Do you think just the PS4S without coilovers might be too much?
@@ruturaj47 , actualy my GT86 had a KW V3, 15mm lower, but still OEM tyres. That could be an option, or otherwise, and much cheaper, OEM suspension and PS4S in 225/40/18. Would not go for coilovers, plus sticky tyres, too much G-forces for the engine...
@@didierleurquin3693 thanks, I have been thinking about PS4S in 225/45-17, wasn't so serious about getting ohlins, now would just drop the idea entirely.
I think this video did it for me, brz bois. I do stats for a living, and I'd say that many "anecdotal" cases within one person's network is plenty for one car model. I guess B58 here I come.
What people keep missing is that RTV is NOT isolated to the oil pan in these engines and thus a lot of it never gets near the oil pickup tube that has all the screens. People also incorrectly think the RTV is only on the oil pan seal surface. It on a lot of different surfaces in the engines where gaskets normally go and thus a lot of it is on the other side of the oil pickup tube. The reason I know this is because there is a video on youtube where someone disassembles one of these engines that took out its crankshaft bearings and they show all the different places where gobs and gobs of RTV is used and breaking off into the engine cavities. Another think the people do not understand is that while the oil pickup tube is huge, the other parts of the oil passageways are very small and easy to clog up. Also, that screen in the oil pickup tube only stops large pieces of RTV and only for the time period they stay small. As the large pieces start falling apart into smaller and smaller pieces, they get sucked up into the rest of the engine, into the oil pump, into every bearing (main bearings, rod bearings, cam bearings, etc.). My bet is the RTV is causing most of these engines to fail. A lot of engines have failed just driving normally with plenty of oil, so it is very apparent that is is not g force for many of them. Of course that does not mean the g force issue is also not problem. It appears the engines have both problems. By the way, there is a video of a tear down of the first generation of this engine and it does not have all the RTV like the gen 2.
I think the root of the issue is a boxer engine is more sensitive to changes oil pressure and they don’t have any baffling in the oil pan to keep oil near the pick up tube. What’s been found is the first gen has more robust oiling system compared to the second gen. However they have the same flaw of lack of baffling in the oil pan.
Even aftermarket baffles don’t keep enough… the return rate is lower than the pump rate… meaning oil is trapped on the right turns. Fastest solution is add an extra 0.5 liter oil in.
Subaru makes fun street car engines. Not necessarily track motors. The other manufacturer to use the boxer engine in Motorsports application is Porsche and you know how much R&D went into it and how much they cost.
I am simply wondering if there was any 'lessons learned' from the 1st gen platform when their FA20s are blowing up when Toyota and Subaru went to back to the drawing board. After watching this podcast, I changed my mind about the owners who suffered through these issues. I thought it was lack of awareness, but now I sympathize them completely. Hell, I've been looking for a dry sump system or shop that's crazy enough to build one but no one tackled this to my frustration. It would be real nice for any major name brand aftermarket companies to drop one.
Here's the list of NEW track and auto x friendly cars under 50k and their negatives. All are solid picks (just calling out the mild compromises) 1. Miata. Best choice but better for those under 6ft or short in torso. 2. Camaro 1LE package. Terrible visibility and high consumables 3. Golf R. Little soft and artificial, detached feeling 4. Elantra N. Wheel hop is terrible, esp in wet or uphill 5. Corolla GR. Needs some aftermarket diff cooling for longer track sessions. No sliding 6. CTR - Difficult to source. FWD for those who want throttle drive If you want to spend more (under 100k) C8 Z51 is perfect out of the box, Supra is nearly perfect but needs some stiffer springs, and Cayman is also solid (if not a bit clinical for my tastes). CT4V BW apparently good but dunno much about.
C8 is way too heavy. And you forgot the Evora. It doesn't have cheap mcpherson struts all around like a Cayman. Supra is at around 40K nm/degree of torsional rigidity.
@xyz777 agreed, clarified Supra (suspension/springs). Evora is absolutely amazing but not new, Emira over 100k. Disagree on C8, it's track ready and does long long sessions with no issues
@Zygrene haha. Just a middle aged techie and car guy, modding, enjoying and blowing money on too many cars up here in Seattle since 2005. If I had invested the money in the markets I'd be with more 💰 but less smiles
One thing I find amazing is how most folks dont realize how much potential these cars have on track with suspension/tire mods. Watching your and other on track clips shows *insane* grip. And confidence. The risk of engine issues is worth it imo. What other car does what this car does at this price point? None. It is in a class all its own.
@@milesfathi convertible - fwd - all one thousand pounds more - maybe a cayman (then you factor in reliability and maintenance). like i said, in a class all its own. Miata maybe nears it.
You asked what other cars do performance this well at the price - you can't just dismiss answers to your question offhand because they do it differently (heavier and more powerful, fwd, etc).
@@j.3854 Miata is right there with the BRZ/GR86 in outright speed and can beat it on handling alone. There is no substitute for less weight, period. Rigidity isn't the greatest because it's an open car compared to a fixed roof car (if you really want to find something to complain about), but the Miata is actually pretty darn ridged as far as convertibles go. Go drive a Mustang/Camaro convertible and you'll see how bad those are.
@@newwavetheo stock for stock BRZ vs nd2 miata is pretty close, but when suspension mods are accounted for the Miata's wishbone front vs BRZ's mcpherson strut makes the biggest difference.
I put a Jackson oil cooler, Koyo rad, and mildly upgraded brake pads to start tracking my 2023. It's been fun and has no problem staying cool, but it did puff on restart after the first session at a track with a long carousel. So did the other 2 BRZs in my paddock that are running wider 200TW tires and the same cooling mods. We're looking at AOS and catch can options, and maybe an Accusump.
That's very interesting/revealing! Seems like the AOS could be the best option for these cars. Ingesting oil through the intake can easily destroy an engine.
Yup, I learned that the hard way in Gen 1. Don't let the epa choose the oil for you, especially for tracking. Interesting why the US owners' manual only recommends 0w20, but the Japans owners' manual, you can use 0w20, 0w30, 5w30, and 5w40.
I absolutely hate 0W-20 oil. If there’s any sort of aggressive driving happening, you gotta switch it out. The fuel economy benefits of 0W-20 over 5W-30 are extremely negligible.
I vouch for those Australian brakes. I used those with Dot4 brake fluid, Hawk HP+ pads, steel braided lines and running 215 tires on my RSX at Road Atlanta with a brutal braking zone on the back straight. No overheating or fade after 20 min sessions on a hot day. Interesting though, I upgraded to 235 width with lighter wheels years later at the same track and had smoking rotors and pads after coming off the track. I think the extra tire mass or unsprung weight maybe was the culprit.
I have DC5S and got a set of RPF1 in 17x7 +45 (stock wheel size) and they weigh 14.8lb and the Advan AD09R tires weigh 22lb for a 36lb per corner combo.. made a gigantic difference over the OEM 17x7 @ 22lb each. Most people go wider for their tires and wheels without fully utilizing the previous size @ the stickiest tires they can buy.
For me, it makes no sense to expect a manufacturer to warranty your race car. That said, what's the point of having this capability if you're not able to use it. If Toyota is misleading the public about the BRZ or GR86's track abilities as a sales point, it seems to me they have a responsibility to recall it and fix the problem. If you mod it to be more competitive, that's on you, and I believe it should void the manufacturer's warranty. Blowing your engine is a bitter pill to swallow, so always proceed with caution. When building a race purpose track car the warranty is your wallet. Either way, it pays to make damned sure your car can handle what you're throwing at it. The old track mechanic's rule of thumb is every $1.00 spent on active go fast upgrades should have $3.00 spent on passive upgrades to handle it.
Basically everything I have seen is that if you plan to push your Gen 2 BRZ/GR86 then you need to be mindful of oil pressure and do some mods to mitigate pressure drops in hard turns. Even something as over filing with higher weight oil can have a big impact. Seems your average user will be fine, but we will see 5 or so years from now.
It was mentioned that a baffled oil pan doesn't help the issue, but I really don't see how oil starvation could be a key issue and a baffled oil pan doesn't help. At this point, I think they're basically required on a boxer engine that's going to the track. Tomei makes an Oil Pan Baffle Plate. Assuming you don't have the RTV issue, I think this design has the highest chance of keeping oil where it belongs. I think if someone made an oil pan / baffle combo that increased the oil capacity that would be event better.
I've been interested in upgrading to a Gen2 car, but without being able to fit a UEL (I have no doubt they'd deny warranty over that CEL) I'm thinking about other options. I just don't enjoy the sound of the engine with the standard manifold.
Subaru motors scare me, I know people with foresters that use them to cart round kids and just regular stuff and they still loose their engine with lower miles sub 100k. I won't even consider buying a gr86 or BRZ because of they have subaru engines.
Subaru has made good rally race engines for decades. And this is not just a typical Subaru engine; Toyota also had total input on the design to try and insure reliability. That's why it has the D4-S injection system for example. It's not a bad engine, it's just not a race car engine. Sadly in life you often get what you pay for, as these guys alluded to, so if you really want a reliable race/track car, you'll either need to do careful extensive mods or get a Porsche or something.
Fairly new to Gr86 ownership and i'm more fast road/ rare track use driver. More data is now available and it seems shallow oil pan vs boxer engine and where the oil pick up is located are more of a factor than the RTV. Causing big oil pressure drops in high G right hand turns. For an easy low cost low level of protection improvements in preventing oil pressure drop in high G corners were seen by overfilling by about half a litre of oil.
this is quite interesting, and for me, personal-irony! I'm eyeing the GR as eventual replacement for my 2005 RX-8 ....a noted "time bomb" of some internet-infamy. That said, mine is still on original engine/tranny after being beat-upon for 100K+ miles. Maybe I should just keep tracking it?? ;-P
As the owner of a turbo e85 450whp rx8. If you’re keeping it as your track car and premixing and using 20w50 oil every 2500 miles and no smog stuff and you redline consistently. That engine can last almost another 100k. My last NA one made it to 200k original engine and never lost compression. Lost a trans and a clutch before I lost compression. I’d say keep tracking it if it’s only a track and canyon car
Thanks for this video! I have stock GR86 6AT and dont plan to drop pan or add oil cooler until warranty is up. Im also a novice driver just running Conti DWS06+ tires, so for HDPE events, I try not to shift past 7k, and the 2 tracks Ive been to, I was in 3rd/4th gear the whole time. 2 track days so far, and planning to do 1-2 HPDE yearly during fall/spring seasons only. Oil temps reach around 240F max after about 11-12 laps of novice/conservative driving. Also really liked what Chris said about "mechanical sympathy" I think of my car as my trophy and not a lap time chaser, so Im more focused on driving the car home safely and keeping that "mechincal sympathy" in mind
this is such a huge issue for this platform. the main appeal of the Toyobaru twins is that they're track friendly with their balance, lightweight, and cheap consumables.
8:05 The use of the dry sump oil system isn't limited to GTs in Porsche's lineup. My 987.2 Cayman 9A1 engine has a dry sump. I haven't finished the vid, but if I bought a new 86, I would use a group 4 synth oil, optionally change oil after or before the event, get the RTV fix and a baffled oil pan. One of the suggestions a Cayman tuner (MotoIQ) recommended was getting a baffled oil pan when upgrading the suspension and getting stickier tires. The idea being, when the cornering G's go up, so does the risk of oil starvation.
I’m on my 15th season of SCCA competition and the understanding has always been that you leave your warranty at the starting line. Anything that happens on track is not covered by the warranty. It’s interesting watching this situation play out with the 86 crowd. I wish you all good luck. Any concessions about track use that you can get from the manufacturers will certainly help the rest of us in the future.
Great idea to share the information and prompt discussion. In factory trim the vehicle should not be able to overheat and oil pickup blocking is 100% a factory defect that should be recalled or covered. I'm not sure it's reasonable to suggest that you need to run different grade oil (which is worse under normal operating conditions), modify the cooling system, or be responsible for watching the oil temp' gauge like a hawk in this day and age. The car should also have appropriate safeties in the ECU with alarms to tend to oil pressure, temp', fuelling limits etc. prior to catastrophic failure. Stock pads are probably the only exception there (and incidentally there's no way any rotors are enough to save stock pad turds on track). In regard to oil starvation it shouldn't be an issue when fitted with any commercially available/legal tyre like a 200TW. Easy to test with a log of oil pressure against lateral G so Toybaru definitely have this data and are fully aware of starvation limits. The only way baffles don't help with this issue is if it's an oil return issue like you see on deep skirt chev blocks, RB engines etc. Once you modify the vehicle then it's fair to say it's on you to substantiate that modifications didn't contribute to a failure. It gets muddy to say they haven't designed the performance car for track duties either because there's every chance that people globally can run on legal roads under similar conditions eg. the 'ring. Cheers!
Great podcast felt like I was a fly on the wall to a great car convo and was able to follow. Just remember all these problems are solved by just getting a s2000 😂
They can be, if you take proper care of them.. but most of the young kids that came over from the Honda scene don't do that. They think they can beat on it, like they do their Honda's and it'll be fine but that's not the case. You have to pay to play with Subaru's. You have to do the interval maintenance's at specific mileage, you have to keep an eye on oil pressure, you have to check your oil every time you fill up.. You *HAVE* to have dyno tunes done for every little modification you do that affects air or fuel, like intakes or downpipe etc.. there's preventative maintenance that needs to be done and when you don't do it, they go to shit. On top of that, the engine design and stock oiling/baffle system is not a good combination. They can starve, if you take high G turns, as all of the oil will go to one side of the engine. It can be fixed with aftermarket parts but most people don't know that. They take their stock oil system Subaru on a track and it blows up because of the starvation and they just go "$%^@$ POS Subaru" and blame the car, when in reality, it's the owner.
I know someone who blew 3 engines. The last one was stock, no aftermarket updates. Sticky tires, instructor driver. Toyota refused to cover any of the engines.
Great video! My takeaway is that if you want to grip-ify your BRZ/86 then dry sump/oil system upgrade is needed. I've recently got a 2012 BRZ with supercharger and suspension mods so this is interesting to me (for now not looking at putting the car on track)
Very informative episode 👍🏻. If you’re gonna do more episodes over video call I suggest a external mic. You and topher’s audio was muddy compared to jubbal
I honestly don't care about toyota paying for it, I just want to be able to track my GR86 without having the anxiety of knowing that the engine will evnetually blow up. I'm ready to pay money to solve this issue but there's none
Another question is does the 2022+ WRX suffer from the same issue being the same engine? As I've seen heaps of them being tracked and no issues so far that I know of?
Engine builder / machinist here since 2010, not saying this will prevent all failures, but it’s crazy that people are using the OEM weight oil. At least 10w40 if not 15w40.
there is a video on here of a few brz/gr86 owners data logging oil pressure and they found right hand turns cause large dips in pressure. they used a previous gen as a control.
Hey Fenton, enjoying your videos as always. I’d be very interested in what you might have to say on ZCT about PPF. To do or not to do? Reasons why? I can’t imagine you haven’t considered this issue, especially since you track your cars. Even for daily drivers - is it worth the cost?
I dont understand why people are surprised that stock cars made for street use break on track 😅 just put the suporting mods that goes with the type of driving that you want to achieve, if you want sustained high G's just add a dry sump and fix fuel starvation issues also add cooling mods and race oil and good fuel, even race cars with all the mods often break on track 😅 its just the way it is, no matter the car model it will still break at some point
This was a really insightful video, thanks guys! I’m in Australia and recently put in an order for a new BRZ set to arrive early 2024. Knowing these issues existed, even well before ordering mine, obviously didn’t stop me from getting one. The preventative practices that you discussed are exactly what I will be doing with my car. Infrequent track use and minimal modifications other than maybe an exhaust, etc. are on my radar. Might drop the oil pan to check the oil pickup for RTV after a couple months of driving as a check-up too. As well as using a higher quality oil like a 5W30 and regularly changing it, along with an aftermarket oil cooler, are there any other practices that you reckon will assist in further preventing any issues? And would these two practices mentioned above have a chance at voiding the warranty? I’ve seen some debate over what you can and can’t do in this space in order to avoid warranty issues. Seems you have to tip-toe a little…
It's pretty general advice but from my research it's even more important on Subarus that you don't lug the engine i.e., make sure you're not flat footing it at 2000rpm or less. You'll feel it if the engine is happy or not. Also let it get up to operating temps before driving and even moreso driving it hard. Not only will it cause less wear on the engine but it will drive better too (transmission fluid takes a fair while to get up to temperatures where it starts shifting smoothly). Outside of oil starvation and rod bearings, connecting rods are a point of failure mainly when boosted. Regardless, the conrods are designed to operate best for high rpm not low rpm, hence why lugging is a bad idea. Yes you will lose a little bit of fuel economy but it's a small price to pay imo. A lot of guys recommend change of oil after break in period 1000-2000kms to remove metals and contaminants and there's good evidence to support that, but it won't be a part of scheduled maintenance. I personally did this. Depending on where you live in Aus it might not be a good idea to go 5w-30. 0w-20 does a better job protecting the engine during cold starts and cold climates. I find it takes longer for a boxer to reach operating temps compared to an inline 4, so it's not inconsequential. Adding an oil cooler can definitely affect warranty claims. It might not void your claim if the worst occurs, but it will definitely make the situation more complicated. Also dropping the oil pan is the same deal, could complicate warranty claims especially if not performed by the dealer. Personally, I feel a bit more apprehensive about track use in Australia since a lot of the track marketing was for the US. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you had to escalate a warranty claim beyond the dealership if tracking was involved. The biggest thing is don't moneyshift. They have datalogs to see how high the car has been revved and at what mileage (hence why it's good to respect the break-in period) and I believe Subaru can even see if you've taken it to a track. All that is to say: Try to play by their rules if you want them to honor their warranty.
@@harrybuhse8622 Thanks for your reply mate. I’ve definitely heard a lot about lugging the engine and is something that definitely comes down to the driver. Definitely agree that it’s worth the slightly worse fuel economy in the long run. And obviously any person who cares about the well-being of their car should let it get up to temp before any serious driving. I think it’s important to be respectful of the break-in period as you mentioned, especially on these cars, and will take your advice on changing the oil around 1-2k kms. Can you explain why 0W-20 does a better job at protecting the engine in cold temps as opposed to 5W-30? I live in South East Queensland. Have you had any issues with your BRZ and what is your advice on maintenance? As much as I think it’s a good idea to drop the oil pan periodically, it does complicate things as you say especially if not performed by a dealer. Then again, I’m not confident that my dealership would do this for me if I asked unfortunately. It is what it is I suppose. Thanks again for the advice. What’s your personal experience been like in owning a BRZ in Aus? Would love to hear more.
@@alexmcrae7274 I reckon don't sweat the oil pan unless you are really into tracking it and run sticky tyres since any RTV blockage should be negligible overall. It's when you complicate it with high sustained Gs there might be some moments for wear to occur. Very cool car. It's my first rear wheel drive car and as a young male it's certainly a liability 😂 I get the hype behind oversteer that's for sure. I have to remind myself to be careful though since I don't have the experience and driving habits needed to catch the car with traction control and stability off properly. Even if the roads are slightly greasy the car is ready to play and it's easy to underestimate just how quickly it will spin. It's a good dose of horrifying and humbling and I'm just grateful I haven't gotten involved in an accident before learning to respect the car. Unfortunately I don't have any roads that would be good to practice on at the moment, and there's a fair bit of preparation involved for a track day. If you're getting a BRZ S model the tyres can be pretty loud over bad roads and the sound system leaves a bit to be desired. I've gotten used to it now but I'm getting a 2-way speaker upgrade (aprox. $600 including labour) to fix that up. Fuel economy isn't horrendous but it's also not amazing since you're filling up with 95 at the minimum. I use 98 and have gotten about 7.9L/100km over 16,000kms with a decent amount of highway. Roughly $80 a tank at these fuel prices. I bought an axleback exhaust to get a little more noise over stock and I'm happy with it. I don't want to be a cop magnet so I got an exhaust that meets Japanese regulations which is a little quieter than Australian regulations. Any catback/axleback exhaust will give you pops and bangs on downshifts in specific circumstances just a heads up haha. I'm sure it's not a huge deal but even though gen 1 brz/86 exhausts bolt up to new cars the diameters are slightly narrower than gen 2 exhaust setups so keep that in mind when looking to buy. Other than that, the doors are long so be careful where you park. You have a button to fold your mirrors in which can be pretty useful. Don't worry about people saying the car is slow because this isn't the US. You'll be faster than a lot of cars on the road especially Qld. It's got great torque between 3000-4000rpm. Track mode can tell you your oil and coolant temps. There's also a tyre pressure monitoring screen that's made me aware of two tyre punctures already which is pretty bad luck. I did get ppf and ceramic coating which is awesome but it's not for everybody. Depends how bad rock chips bother you. I just touched up the paint from rock chips on my last car but I didn't want to do that this time around. The biggest thing that bothers me is how easy it is to scratch the steering wheel. I've already scratched it 3 times getting in and out. It's easy to do and I've never scratched the wheel on any other car I've been in. Idk what the solution is there. Careful with your keys and your nails even if they're short. It can and will happen. As for 0w-20 vs 5w-30 it's best to look that information up since others will be able to explain it far better than me. Essentially they have different optimal operating temperatures, where 0w-20 is some of the best available for keeping high viscosity during low temperatures which will be the case every time you do a cold start. The faster that oil is able to lubricate the engine the better and that's what it does well. It even does a pretty remarkable job in heat too considering, but if you're out doing track days often in the heat, 5w-30 would likely be a better choice since it won't thin out as much at high temperatures if you're reaching them. I've reached about 105⁰C on the street driving spiritedly, where 130⁰C is considered too hot. So personally, I couldn't justify 5w-30 with the sort of driving I do, nor an oil cooler since air to oil coolers can make your oil take longer to get up to temps as well. Sorry that was really long hope it was useful :)
@@harrybuhse8622 Wow mate! Thanks for that reply. Absolute gold. Really appreciate it. Loads of great info there which I will definitely remember and research more. Cheers! :)
The RTV issue really depends on how hard you drive. If driven on a heavy duty schedule you got to pay close attention to the seals and engine like a quirky older car
For what it's worth, I dropped the oil pan on my 2023 GR86 at 1000 miles and 2500 miles. At 1000 miles there was a disturbing amount of RTV on the pickup. At 2500 miles there was virtually nothing.
are you tracking the car? I've heard of these issues, I also own a 2023'. I am at about 4.5k miles and have yet to drop the pan at all, but I do not drive it hard at all; just highway/city driving for the most part. I realize maybe I should consider dropping it but then have also heard that doing so voids warranty and having a dealer do it costs about 400$ or so... so I am curious as to what kind of driving you are doing considering the RTV in your pick up.
@avilescarlos411 I am tracking the car and running it on 20p TW tires. Also Installed oil cooler and dual level oil baffle. Running 5w30 oil. After four thousand miles in several track days, she's still holding strong. Pray that keeps up. If you're street driving the car on stock tires, you're probably OK not dropping the oil pan but that's just my opinion.
@@throker praying for you man ! Haha, I hate that all these malfunctions are occurring to such a beautiful car. I bought it for its looks, to be honest. Not tracking it, not racing it, just cruising and some grandpa driving lol I have barely revved it past 4k RPMS, and redlined maybe once or twice So, all in all; I am calm about it for the most part but it’s still super unfortunate cause the car is amazing both to drive and gaze at
unrelated to the RTV issue but it came up in this chat so I figured I'd bring it up. If you guys can ever find someone with an inline 4 swapped brz/gr86 that you can review, I'd love to officially once and for all hear what kind of difference the change in center of gravity makes in driving dynamics.
What advice could you give to one that’s getting their new ‘23 BRZ after waiting 13 months since ordering and turned in their 2020 WRX because everyone I met at the track was on their rebuilt WRX motor. Purpose of the BRZ was to be a roughly 10 year track car and build it further into a track car over time. This news gives me the jitters
I have 2018 Brz ts. Daily driven. First owner. 77k miles. Done all my maintenance at the dealer. Just recently. I went to take it in for an oil change and they notice metal shaving in the motor oil. Is that common???
I would argue autox is as straining if not more straining on car than track. Throwing it side to side is more violent, you sometimes have to bounce off the rev limiter depending on course and layout. Not as much sustained high revs/heat, but def more thermal stress from going all out for a min then full cool down.
Finally a comment about that guy. He was keeping the car in the 5 to 7k range for no reason at all. Literally just letting it run at high RPM through entire laps at low speeds. His oil temps were pushing 260 and he kept redlining the car. How much abuse did this car have that we didn't see? Plus he was tracking it with the AC on, lol. Toyota STILL bought him a new engine. No way I would drive my car like this. It's one thing to use revs to pull a car and it's quite another to run it up there. I guess I'm just irritated that this one video caused so many misconceptions about why it blew up
I haven’t watched the full video yet so sorry if this was already mentioned but how can we “bulletproof” these cars? I have heard doing mods like magnetic oil plug, air-oil-separator (or catch can), dual radiator (or oil cooler), & oil baffle plate?
Good job on bringing light to this issue 👍🏽 I wish someone did this with the GT350. The engines seem to spontaneously blow up for no reason and its a hot topic. I feel like using the 5W-20 Oil might be a bad idea though because that would give Toyota or Subaru an easier way to deny your claim since its not the "recommended oil"
Agreed, would've loved to see something similar regarding GT350 voodoo Motors... Although I heard oil starvation was the causes - the culprit being the vibration of high revs loosening oil filter off over time. Regardless, I'd think a low-oil indicator would've warned drivers...
I was under the impression that all Porsches use a drysump in their boxer engines because they know about the inherent shortcomings of the boxer engine in sporting applications
They used to but since 996 save for I think the turbos gt2 gt3 and gt4rs they have "integrated dry sump" which is really just wet sump but with baffling and multiple pickups
I honestly think that these motors just need frequent 1,000 mile oil changes with good quality oil. (Motul, Eneos, etc..) I have 6 track days with 6k miles. The truth is people who blow their motors don’t change or monitor the oil as frequently. 3k miles on this motor is already to much with no track days. Also use 5w30 oil. 0w20 was just to satisfy EPA. Also oil coolers saves the motor. Baffles do not help.
@@Shinigami_1320 you have survivors bias. If the oil is still good after 1k miles, there isn't any benefit to changing it and you won't know unless you send it out for testing.
@@Zygrene same with oil cooler, cleaning the RTV, a baffle, accusump, AOS etc. Or even heavier fluid in the trans (the factory 75W is too thin). You get penalized for trying to take care of your car
brz/86 dream team right there, lol!! thx for the deep dive, i'm in the Topher's camp, keep it as a fun slow car, respect it's limits - Spec Miata if I'm gonna seriously get into tracking and have the money!
I love boxer engines personally, but would prefer my Toyota to come with a Toyota engine. KillerB Motorsports is currently in extensive R&D for a unique oil pan baffle that does indeed remedies the oil starvation issues. They even got some customers that run track days doing some field testing now. Once the appropriate design has made it to market than no more issues. Just a cult classic car living out its years without infamy.
There is a reason why oil pans and pickups are popular mods on other cars that have Boxer engines lol. If you're tracking any car with one of them those are the first mods you should really have done.
Wow. Talk about grasping at straws. Trying to link "tampering" with brake caliper bolts to engine failure feels like quite a smokescreen. What a nightmare. I know someone with a new Mustang GT that had a small scrape, when it was on the lot. The dealer said they rubbed a hose on it while detailing, and would take care of it. 3 months later, the dealer is still giving him the runaround. I can only imagine the exponentially greater headache on a huge ticket item like a blown engine. Lots of obnoxious wording - "high RPM", "driven at high speed". If they are smart, there will likely be some "quiet" (so as to not imply it was ever their fault) modifications coming to future model years. Good luck. I have a Gen 1 BRZ, but have not tracked it.
Also, Porsche has proven there is no inherent design issues with flat engine designs (but they have had their issues over the years, and cost more than a BRZ to fix in most cases lol). Subaru's engines have never been designed for the track however, and are designed for regular use. They don't include Air-Oil seperator systems like Porsche engines do, nor do they have extremely well baffled oil pans, over-designed oiling systems, or dry sump oiling systems from the factory. If you want to see what CAN be done to make these engines work for racing uses, just look at all of the rally teams and what they've had to do with the engines the last 30+ years to make them work well for racing purposes.
What do you consider proof? I think Porsche has proven if you spend enough money you can engineer around issues. The engine placement in the rear is just another example. That doesn't negate the inherent risk relative to other engine designs. On a lateral corner, oil doesn't drain from the head to the pan like a V engine. A long sweeping corner on track, or even highway off ramp, can cause the pickup to suck air. That's a topic they talk about in this video. The reason modern Porsche flat engines don't have the same issue is due to a hybrid wet/dry sump or full dry sump. I love my Subaru, but all cars have pros and cons. Like you said, these are street cars and perform well in that space. They're not race cars. Also, the EJ257 has an air oil separator from the factory, but people often upgrade to compensate for track driving. Not sure about the FA engines.
@@QuintonLeister Inline and V engines have compromised design issues to that have to be compensated for, like inherent imbalance and gravity pulling oil down away from the head too. I've seen plenty of EA888's blow smoke during corners, Honda engines grenade on the track, and plenty of V engines including a new ZR1 die during track use. There is no "perfect" ICE engine for racing at any price. The EJ257 just has a standard PCV system same as any EJ engine, nothing at all like what Porsche includes.
@@stevemartegani oh, for sure. Every design comes with pros and cons. I mention the factory AOS on the EJ because while it’s nothing like Porsche, it does have one. Obviously it leaves much to be desired. Especially, when increasing boost. The PCV system is something I monitor closely on my STi.
It's my understanding that toyota has a difficult time managing the ongoing "subaru engine" related issues. They are developing a toyota built gr86 which is scheduled to release in 2024/25 and have the 3 cylinder that's currently in the GR Corolla with some sort of intergrated hybrid setup.
My question is I have a 23 brz… you covered people that track and auto cross… what about people like myself that don’t track or auto cross… occasional canyon/mountain run and mostly hwy driving…. If your not pushing crazy g’s like on the track is this really even an issue? (You did mention it in the end after I posted)
I have a 23 gr86 and do mostly mountain driving. Got about 12k on the car now and no problems. Push pretty hard sometimes. I don't think you'll know you have a problem until it's to late.
@@rutleyj your not pushing high g's on the street for extended periods so I dont see how this would be a problem at all. Do you plan on doing anything?
Boxer engines have oil pool in the heads in high G corners. this is why Porsches have scavenger pumps in the heads and/or are dry sump. Miatas can handle 1.5G on stock oiling
I have a 2023 BRZ just bought it this week, i was aware of the issue and i thought because i am not tracking it i should be ok. But i have back to back round abouts on my way home from work and i usually take them pretty hard, 1G is normal. I don't usually rev it that hard cause i dont want to wake people up so the oil temp is never really high. All that being said, what are the chances i blow my engine doing this, hypothetically of course. Please tell me it is fairly unlikely, it's literally the best part of my day.
Did you guys install an oil baffle in your engines? That should reduce the risk of oil starvation during high G cornering. What about those owners who had engine failures, did they install oil baffles?
Is this not almost the same issue with WRX STI where they need an oil baffle because the G forces in continued turns prevents oil from properly getting circulated? Y'all touched on this but also said oil baffles were not a fix (I think, if I heard right). Disappointing to see all around but hopefully it gets pinpointed down.
Yes, one of the issues. Wish they talked about flat engines being the common trait between the STi and BRZ. From what I gather, oil starvation is a risk on any flat engine. The risk depends on pan design and other variables (i.e. wet vs dry sump). On a lateral corner, oil doesn't drain from the head to the pan like a V engine. That might be why we see oil starvation on cars with flat engines more than other designs. With that said, plenty of people drive cars like the STi and BRZ within their engine's intended purpose (street) without issue. My 05 STi has been extremely reliable and the reason I don't upgrade the oiling system is because it's street driven on all seasons tires.
Until this issue is fixed I won’t buy one. I want to get one later but unless this problem is fixed I will not buy one and might go with something different if it is not fixed by the time I am ready. I bought a new Forester Wilderness recently and planned on adding a BRZ in a year when Forester was paid off. Love my Forester and I had not heard of this issue at all until I started watching BRX GR 86 videos and researching them
Man, but I don't want an automatic Outback. If it was manual, different story. So frustrating. Miata is too small and dangerous for Minnesota, GR86 has RTV issues, and Outback is automatic. So frustrating!
I hate to say it, but the truth is self evident. The GR86 engine is flawed and unreliable due to both design and manufacturing defects. A sports car that can’t handle a corner without blowing the engine is not a good sports car. It’s not even a good car at that point. There are reports of these engines failing without any track use at all. No, this isn’t driver error. Side note, money shifting is more myth than reality. It’s pretty rare that someone misses a shift so badly and gets into gear that the valves get bent. Most track transmissions and cars are designed for engine braking and high RPM conditions. Unless it’ has a GR or Subaru badge on it apparently.
![BRZ & GR86 Oil Starvation Even In Stock Form - [2024 Current State Technical Discussion]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4CidHbClNHY/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you for the shout out Zygrene. As a friend and small business, I sincerely appreciate it!
Speaking and working on cars from a HUGE amount of Gen2 owners, here's what I've gathered regarding the Oil starvation/ RTV leading to engine failures issue: It's a combination factors. High volume oil pump, smaller sump capacity (1qt less than FA20), no oil baffling (sustained high G turns), RTV blocking the pick up, internal oil system design (MotoIQ did an article on it where the main/rod bearings are non primary for the oil system, good reason we see so many bearing failures/rod knock)
One other thing to factor in is how Toyota vs Subaru deal with warranty claims. Subaru by far is way more forgiving - during my time as a Subaru dealer tech, I've seen how easily Subaru will cave in to "good will" a warranty claim or buy back a car that doesnt really have an issue. Here are some personal examples
Buy back: 60,000 miles Impreza due to multiple warranty issues (normal Subaru quirks)
Buy back: Subaru Legacy the owner states the sunlight sensor would not turn his headlights on "fast enough"
Good will: WRX 15,000 miles clutch failure. Clutch job parts and labor got good willed. Keep in mind this car had bald tires, little to no brake pads, and a body shop receipt that said the car had been in an accident with frame damage.
I am glad I have the Subaru version after reading this.
Wasn’t my experience with my first gen BRZ. They barely wanted to do anything with blatant issues….
CMAutohaus does great work. Super consistent reporting
@@shawnconary6810 Thanks James Bond. Sincerely appreciate it. As a small business making the RTV videos is really taxing, but I know it helps the community, especially the data collection
Hate to say it, but in Canada dealers are entirely unforgiving. If they can't charge you for it, they're not interested in helping you. $165 CAD / $120 USD for an OBD2 scan to pull codes, before quoting you for the maintainence itself
This was fun! Thanks for having me on, gents.
Also, just to clarify on Liqui Moly - I put a bottle of MoS2 in the BRZ after every oil change - it's a nice cheap safety net if oil pressure drops or there's a couple seconds of starvation at high-g.
Hey Topher, I saw this and thought you guys might be interested. It's a pretty good scientific analysis of the oiling issues of the BRZ. th-cam.com/video/4Jk5WTWoqt4/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for coming on as a brand new owner I learned and enjoyed it!
Thanks for getting together and talking about this. Having bought my ZD8 mostly to have fun and to learn to drive fast, it's been pretty stressful to watch this saga unfold. As you all said, there are risks associated with tracking any car, but the frequency of catastrophic failures in the media has been concerning for me. With the internet being the way that it is, people love to present speculations about the root cause(s) as fact (RTV, oil pan baffling, oil temps, driver error, etc.) with very limited information - but ultimately even if there is an unusual number of failures relatively to other commonly tracked cars, owners collectively cannot make an accurate and sound conclusion based on the existing data points. So it was nice to hear some more level-headed people talk about the situation.
Something that I'm very curious about but I think none of you brought up is the spec racing series for this car run by Toyota. The GR86 Cup cars have full aero, slicks, race suspension, etc. My understanding is the engine/oiling system is lightly modified, including an oil cooler and different oil pan, but I don't have many details. If you guys could somehow figure out what they've changed there, it would be super helpful, since that info isn't public as far as I know. I assume they wouldn't risk having multiple cars blowing up every race, so I'd love to know how the manufacturer thinks it's best to modify the car for racing. Unless they all just get frequent engine replacements, in which case idk... I'll probably just sell the car. lol
Search GR86 prototype baffle testing and you'll get a couple really informative videos on what is happening and why. It's only on big, right hand turns with high G forces like on a road track. An aftermarket baffle/oil pan/pick-up tube will fix the issue, once one is finally figured out and produced. There really isn't any worry about street driving or even auto-x with fast turns, mostly just the road tracks. No clue why Toyota/Subaru haven't implemented this fix on their new cars, they know it's an issue. It's something that has happened to all boxer engine cars, up until a certain point.. then they fixed it. Not sure why they didn't use the fixed pans/baffle on this car..
weird to see the Topher's face after only watching his pov videos lol
I was thinking the same lol
For reference to Subaru, I had a 2018 STI Type-RA (I've had a BRZ in the past too) that had 4th gear go out on its first and only track day with 4k miles. Warranty was denied, mostly due to the AOS and 91 octane tune I had. But they did actually help with paying for almost all of the claim ("Good Will") when I had the dealer call SOA for assistance.
Thank you for making this video! Not everyone has the money to pay for a new engine on a new car
Which brings us back to Miata is always the answer 😂 ND Miatas engineered to maintain oil pressure at 1.4G consistently.
My Spec Miata was solid!
Way slower than brz
@@zhechengliu387 To the Gen2 BRZ yes but I’m not sure I would say way slower… Depends on so many variables. My last event I was faster than a couple but again driver, tires, mods, etc… all make a difference
Right on! Add to that they have some oil baffling from the factory.
It would always be the answer if if fit a larger people. I'm 6 foot and my head rubs the roof.
the layout of the engine being horizontally opposed has nothing to do with the increase in engine failures, if there is adequate oil pressure, there is adequate lubrication regardless. the flat 4 design if anything, would actually lend itself to prolonged lifespan due to the way the opposing pistons cancel out the others vibration.
i feel the number one reason these are failing is the unique ability for these cars to hold high g forces that rival much more serious performance cars, but it still just has an economy car oiling setup. you wanna keep pulling those crazy Gs you need to go with a custom oiling setup, dry sump, or at the VERY least a modified pickup and baffle.
these are not track ready. they are track CAPABLE, but they need the oiling modifications to keep up with sustained abuse.
Nailed it!
22:00 No black or white
43:00 What Subaru/Toyota should look at
53:50 *Don’t worry about it if you’re NOT tracking your car*
55:00 Inherent flat 4 problem? 🤔
58:00 Porsche IMS issues
1:03:30 Don’t track it unless you can afford a new engine 😅
This was a really good one you guys! Thanks for covering this issue in depth and offering suggested approaches. I've been really tempted to upgrade to a newer GR86 or BRZ but due to these issues I've been sticking with my 1st gen BRZ for track duty. Supercharged, heavily modified, and after 6 years of occasional track time still holding up quite well engine-wise.
Same here. Staying with my 1st gen BRZ.
Great chatting, lots of fun. Thanks for having us Fenton!
Thanks for this conversation, just realized I'm subbed, will have to jump on more of your videos. This long form convo was sorely needed on this topic. BRZ gen 2 owner (ugh wish there was an easier way to search like GR86 for us than "Gen 2" or year model lol
I love the old school love: crappy drivers are safe! I do think the new oil pick up is designed to handle more blockage before starvation is a problem. I think every car will have some amount of RTC in the pick up. The new timing chain baffling in the 2nd gen is probably a step in the right direction but probably not sufficient for the high G modded aggressive trackers. I am hoping stock or stock plus mods are relatively safe as that is where I will likely keep mine during the warranty period. I love the discussion guys, and I do appreciate the personal tips like Molybdenum oil additive and Kangaroo rotor tech 4000 even though I am too crappy a driver to need them. I do find the PS4 tires are too grippy for hooning around on the street and perhaps I might look for a set of primacy tires/wheels to goof around on or track in the future.
company: advertises sports car driving at 10/10s on a track
customer: it broke, help?
company: surprised pikachu face
19:25 valid argument. On the flip side the BRZ has a "Track" button making a suggestion to enthusiasts of track days.
@zygrene - owned my 21 ND2 and after numerous events, canyon carving (touge driving) and 2 dozen road trips all over the US... I've had almost no issues. Most things I've run into are minor hiccups at best. I'm modded almost to the max for the platform but still NA no force induction yet. It's saddened me to see the issues on the current gen 86/brz. As a long time viewer of your channel I hope you guys find ways to get passed the current issues for tracked cars. Currently at 34k miles on my ND2 btw and I drive the car very spirited.
Great podcast, thanks! Chris is pretty spot on. The car was tested and certified around the grip of its factory tires (and overall package). Not all manufacturers have built-in headroom on their stock components that can survive the mods you throw on the car - could be powertrain, drive-line, or suspension components. Seen many different parts fail on cars when modded and pushed beyond their limits. Overall a pay to play mentality.
Also agree with the DBA4000 front rotors. Pretty much solved my pad smearing issues.
Could not agree more. 44:30 though with equally recorded evidence that the car was not modified.
How can a manufacturers like Subaru or Toyota be expected to warranty for track purposes modified cars when Porsche, arguably much more focused, requires even model specific N-rated tires for their warranty. Let alone allow non OEM mods.The envisaged pressure or damage to Subaru’s or Toyota’s reputation by posting on social media unjustified claims will perhaps cause them to pull out of this niche. Then we will all not be able to experience and enjoy cars like that any more. Enjoy them stock or bear the risks.
I understand what you mean but Toyota and Subaru know their market. They aren’t dumb they made a 2nd generation of this car because of its success with the gen 1 they clearly know the car wouldn’t be as popular without the vast aftermarket support for the car. Knowing that, they should expect their average consumer for the car to do a little bit of mods. Putting on some wider stickier tires with some nice wheels and coilovers has never been a void of warranty. Ppl aren’t running slicks on these cars and breaking axles it’s just clearly a very bad engineering fault by Toyota and Subaru who clearly advertise the car as a budget friendly track enthusiast car. But now that their engines are blowing up due to their own engineering fault they want to say it’s our fault and retracting their advertised statesman to say it’s a road car not meant for track use. They just need to take accountability
@@Smitaye- Fair enough point.
This is a great video. Sad to hear so many cases of blown tracked engines makes me worried about mine. Im doing my 7th and 8th track days at Sonoma this weekend. I have oil cooler, RS4 tires and I am tuned on ethanol with a few bolt ons. So far the car has 22K miles and i do changes every 4k miles and i use motul 5w30.
Search GR86 prototype baffle testing and you'll get a couple really informative videos on the subject. It shows exactly when the oil pressure drops. Eventually, an aftermarket baffle/oil pan will be made that completely fixes the issue but until then, I personally wouldn't touch a track with it.
I think it's worth keeping an eye on the Toyota GR86 Cup cars that add a bunch of supporting mods to an otherwise stock (internally at least) FA24 engine. From the specs various sources reference I did not see a mention of any conversion to a dry sump oiling system, just an oil cooler. An article written by NBC Sports talking about the racing series and the cars specifically points this out: "The cars mostly are customized to help manage the heat - the stock versions aren’t designed to handle the oil that sloshes around in the high-speed left- and right-hand turns on the road and street courses of the GR Cup schedule". Hopefully from the cup cars both Subaru and Toyota can collect some R&D data to improve future iterations of the street car. I think overall this hurts Toyota's reputation more given they are the brand people think of for reliable cars and I am not surprised about the rumors that they would move to an all Toyota platform with the 3cyl turbo hybrid setup.
Super Taikyu is another racing series to keep an eye on where the Twins are prevalent in the ST-4 class and both Subaru and Toyota running cars in the ST-Q class to experiment with synthetic fuels. Toyota's entry is notably different using a Toyota 1.4L 3 cyl turbo rather than Subaru's FA24. Not sure what setup is allowed in terms of engine and supporting mods (like oiling upgrades) for this series.
Also: the comment that went popular here by a person claiming to be affiliated with one of the teams in the GR Cup North America series describing engine failures by their own team and other teams is no where to be found anymore 🤨
I owned a Honda CRZ EX 6MT and it was pretty fun to drive. The curb weight on them are around 2650-2740 lbs depending on trim and trans.
This is why I plan on sticking with Primacies for my first gen. Thank you for the podcast! Love your videos dude!
Informative. Y’all have increased my stress level (again) for sure. I’m a bit with Topher on the merits, even if closer to Fenton’s driving style. PS4’s on stock suspension is good fun, whereas a cup 2 on more aggressive spring rate with couple degrees of negative camber up front prob asking for it with wet sump. More proof how this chassis punches well above its weight. Still too early and anecdotal but definitely smoke there as more cars have been sold and higher mileages recorded (anyone been updating that spreadsheet which was floating around documenting all the FA24 failures?). For now, 5w30 every 3k (keep doing the blackstone analysis and measure silicone as well) oil cooler and fingers crossed. I love the car so much already. Such a sucker punch issue but not gonna freak as well. Keep these videos coming guys!
i did a bunch of autocross events with some beefy suspension and tires on my 19' 86, and i loved the chassis so so much but the engine just scared me too much, i never felt settled in enjoying the car because i was too anxious-- SO i am now a proud nd2 owner! I love the car, i just dont love the power train.
Regular people should really have 0 concerns... I think you guys are on point with most of the points, but still leaving out some very important factors (or not putting enough emphasis on some):
1) The GR86/BRZ (gen2) is a very a very, very popular sports car. Even the prevous gen was popular and over it's lifetime the sales of the model had matched that of all Porsche models combined during the same period of time - what do we learn from this? - This particular car is exposed to more attention than most of the other brands and has a higher exposure to more hardcore amateur drivers due to the scale
2) The amount of people tracking the car more heavily is definitely proportionally higher than on other car models. Other cars are more expensive most of the time, so who buys them? Mostly people that are really rich and care more about showing off and keeping them ppf'ed and scratch free than getting the actual max out of their car on track. So the percentage of the people actually doing track days so frequently is most likely much lower for each model than it is for the GR86/BRZ... While most of the GR86/BRZ owner also don't track their cars or only track very occasionally, there's still a higher number people who find the car like made for the track and therefore track it.
3) Adding on top of point 2... Some people do consider the GR86 a cheap car and therefore a good track option. They don't necessarily want to do the best maintenance for the car, but are rather focused on the bang for buck aspect and trying to squeeze out more of the car or use it to learn proper RWD and some maybe even have a plan of selling it at a not too distant point in time in the future. So most likely people will try to save on maintenance, especially if they track the car a lot. Quite logical actually, if one tracks the GR86 1-2 times a year will probably go for an oil change before every track day, while those who do 10-20 times a year will probably skip some as it costs extra money and time...
4) With mods to improve track performance - so better brakes, engine cooling and tyres people are basically able to do longer and more intensive sessions than without those mods. This way the rest of the car parts still are put under a higher load for a longer time than with stock parts, resulting in more intensive track days overall vs casual people who track their car without mods.
5) G-forces in corners - I think this might be one of the most imporant points. People are noticing that the problems are more common with high-G-force scenarios as you mentioned. But the point you guys probably forgot to put emphasis on is that this car indeed, especially due to it's light weight and fairly good aero, even stock, hits higher G-forces. Other sports cars are usually heavier and therefore have worse cornering and usually see less G-forces in the corners. Some of you even say that you are hitting 1.2G's in corners after a few mods on the car, which literally matches the G's that super expensive supercars do. So the problem is not the engine itself, but the fact that this car is put under higher G-forces due to it's superior cornering ability, while still not having the luxury of using the most expensive components as the price of this car has to remain affordable. So the engine is not a problem, it's the fact that this car is faster in corners than other cars and is therefore experiencing more strain than other cars...
With all those factors combined I'm pretty sure that this car is probably more robust overall than other sports cars and at least as good as the more expesnive cars regarding durability, especially considering the engine (because it doesn't have a turbo - as a GOOD mechanic if you don't know what I'm referring to). And considering that the GR86 is not meant to be a race car (and race cars also have a very limited lifetime on every part of theirs and the parts have to be replaced regularly while sometimes not even meeting the expected lifetime), it's a sports car generally meant to be driven by drivers who only casually go on-track, maybe 1-4 times a year and don't go pushing these cars above their intended limits or participate in race tournaments. Having said that, I still don't like how Toyota handles the cases and in my opinion they should still honor the warranty cases unless the drivers really participate in some higher profile events, which would classify the use as regular racing, rather than track driving. It's their car and they should appreciate their customers for buying it. Most won't track anyway...
BUT it should be understood by regular people, that if you take care of you car, don't modify it too much, are cautious and track it only occasionally, then you really should not be concerned about the problem, because other cars would probably have more problems when put under the same conditions.
(if you like this comment please vote up so that the comment doesn't die)
Thanks for this one, guys. I think you hit it on the nail. It's not that much an RTV issue, as it is a lubrication issue when tracking these cars. Slightly grippier tyres, like the PS4S, on stock suspension, or coilovers with stock tyres should be OK. But coilovers and grippy tyres will generate too much G-force in the corners, starving the oil system. And this: G-forces are shown on the dashboard in certain modes, meaning that the dealer can see how much lateral G's owner pulled on the track. So use common sense, and be careful !
What if I run PS4S and milder coilovers like ohlins Road and track? Asking because that's what I was planning to get, all stock right now.
@@ruturaj47 , Hi Bro. I ran Ohlins and Michelin PSS on an MX-5, a few years back. The lateral G limit difference with stock was massive, so I wouldn't risk it on a BRZ/GR86. Also, the stock suspension on the twins is really good, so I'd spend my dollars on tyres, exhaust and brakes ...
@@didierleurquin3693 thanks bro, I was thinking about coilovers because of few reasons, I wanted 15mm drop, 3° camber and less understeer than BRZ is set for and slightly more comfort on daily. Do you think just the PS4S without coilovers might be too much?
@@ruturaj47 , actualy my GT86 had a KW V3, 15mm lower, but still OEM tyres. That could be an option, or otherwise, and much cheaper, OEM suspension and PS4S in 225/40/18. Would not go for coilovers, plus sticky tyres, too much G-forces for the engine...
@@didierleurquin3693 thanks, I have been thinking about PS4S in 225/45-17, wasn't so serious about getting ohlins, now would just drop the idea entirely.
I think this video did it for me, brz bois. I do stats for a living, and I'd say that many "anecdotal" cases within one person's network is plenty for one car model. I guess B58 here I come.
Not the beamer man. Not the beamer...
What people keep missing is that RTV is NOT isolated to the oil pan in these engines and thus a lot of it never gets near the oil pickup tube that has all the screens. People also incorrectly think the RTV is only on the oil pan seal surface. It on a lot of different surfaces in the engines where gaskets normally go and thus a lot of it is on the other side of the oil pickup tube. The reason I know this is because there is a video on youtube where someone disassembles one of these engines that took out its crankshaft bearings and they show all the different places where gobs and gobs of RTV is used and breaking off into the engine cavities. Another think the people do not understand is that while the oil pickup tube is huge, the other parts of the oil passageways are very small and easy to clog up. Also, that screen in the oil pickup tube only stops large pieces of RTV and only for the time period they stay small. As the large pieces start falling apart into smaller and smaller pieces, they get sucked up into the rest of the engine, into the oil pump, into every bearing (main bearings, rod bearings, cam bearings, etc.). My bet is the RTV is causing most of these engines to fail. A lot of engines have failed just driving normally with plenty of oil, so it is very apparent that is is not g force for many of them. Of course that does not mean the g force issue is also not problem. It appears the engines have both problems. By the way, there is a video of a tear down of the first generation of this engine and it does not have all the RTV like the gen 2.
I think the root of the issue is a boxer engine is more sensitive to changes oil pressure and they don’t have any baffling in the oil pan to keep oil near the pick up tube. What’s been found is the first gen has more robust oiling system compared to the second gen. However they have the same flaw of lack of baffling in the oil pan.
Even aftermarket baffles don’t keep enough… the return rate is lower than the pump rate… meaning oil is trapped on the right turns. Fastest solution is add an extra 0.5 liter oil in.
To confirm, once a repair order is opened at a dealer and closed, it is then part of the dealer network and every dealer will be able to see it. 35:30
Liqui Moly MoS2 Anti-Friction Engine Treatment (300ml Can) - Liqui Moly LM2009
Is what they are referring to, FYI.
Subaru makes fun street car engines. Not necessarily track motors. The other manufacturer to use the boxer engine in Motorsports application is Porsche and you know how much R&D went into it and how much they cost.
I am simply wondering if there was any 'lessons learned' from the 1st gen platform when their FA20s are blowing up when Toyota and Subaru went to back to the drawing board.
After watching this podcast, I changed my mind about the owners who suffered through these issues. I thought it was lack of awareness, but now I sympathize them completely.
Hell, I've been looking for a dry sump system or shop that's crazy enough to build one but no one tackled this to my frustration. It would be real nice for any major name brand aftermarket companies to drop one.
Here's the list of NEW track and auto x friendly cars under 50k and their negatives. All are solid picks (just calling out the mild compromises)
1. Miata. Best choice but better for those under 6ft or short in torso.
2. Camaro 1LE package. Terrible visibility and high consumables
3. Golf R. Little soft and artificial, detached feeling
4. Elantra N. Wheel hop is terrible, esp in wet or uphill
5. Corolla GR. Needs some aftermarket diff cooling for longer track sessions. No sliding
6. CTR - Difficult to source. FWD for those who want throttle drive
If you want to spend more (under 100k) C8 Z51 is perfect out of the box, Supra is nearly perfect but needs some stiffer springs, and Cayman is also solid (if not a bit clinical for my tastes). CT4V BW apparently good but dunno much about.
Better off looking into K Series Honda manuals like 8th/9th Gen Si, RSX, TSX or even the Fit.
C8 is way too heavy. And you forgot the Evora. It doesn't have cheap mcpherson struts all around like a Cayman. Supra is at around 40K nm/degree of torsional rigidity.
@xyz777 agreed, clarified Supra (suspension/springs). Evora is absolutely amazing but not new, Emira over 100k. Disagree on C8, it's track ready and does long long sessions with no issues
Dude. You summarized all those cars perfectly.
@Zygrene haha. Just a middle aged techie and car guy, modding, enjoying and blowing money on too many cars up here in Seattle since 2005. If I had invested the money in the markets I'd be with more 💰 but less smiles
One thing I find amazing is how most folks dont realize how much potential these cars have on track with suspension/tire mods. Watching your and other on track clips shows *insane* grip. And confidence. The risk of engine issues is worth it imo. What other car does what this car does at this price point? None. It is in a class all its own.
Miata, Elantra N, 4 poper muscle cars, many excellent used choices.
@@milesfathi convertible - fwd - all one thousand pounds more - maybe a cayman (then you factor in reliability and maintenance). like i said, in a class all its own. Miata maybe nears it.
You asked what other cars do performance this well at the price - you can't just dismiss answers to your question offhand because they do it differently (heavier and more powerful, fwd, etc).
@@j.3854 Miata is right there with the BRZ/GR86 in outright speed and can beat it on handling alone. There is no substitute for less weight, period. Rigidity isn't the greatest because it's an open car compared to a fixed roof car (if you really want to find something to complain about), but the Miata is actually pretty darn ridged as far as convertibles go. Go drive a Mustang/Camaro convertible and you'll see how bad those are.
@@newwavetheo stock for stock BRZ vs nd2 miata is pretty close, but when suspension mods are accounted for the Miata's wishbone front vs BRZ's mcpherson strut makes the biggest difference.
I was in the fence between a miata and brz, the main reason i passed on the brz was because of engine reliability.
Valid reason
Well. I have an mx5 ND2 RF 184hp. I think it is much better than BRZ.
@@jubbalandcars i might add the miata is tested at 1.4g continuos..
@@lucianolucidi8624 definitely
A real sport car.
@@gigi9467 100% for me.
I put a Jackson oil cooler, Koyo rad, and mildly upgraded brake pads to start tracking my 2023. It's been fun and has no problem staying cool, but it did puff on restart after the first session at a track with a long carousel. So did the other 2 BRZs in my paddock that are running wider 200TW tires and the same cooling mods. We're looking at AOS and catch can options, and maybe an Accusump.
That's very interesting/revealing! Seems like the AOS could be the best option for these cars. Ingesting oil through the intake can easily destroy an engine.
Only 5 mins in, but talking about G's, this is why I put in the tomei baffle plate. It seems to help, but not eliminate pressure drops.
I think 0w20 is to thin of a oil for tracking your car
0w20 is absly water for performance use
Yup, I learned that the hard way in Gen 1. Don't let the epa choose the oil for you, especially for tracking. Interesting why the US owners' manual only recommends 0w20, but the Japans owners' manual, you can use 0w20, 0w30, 5w30, and 5w40.
I am running 5w30 but wonder if Subaru would deny warranty because of it.
I absolutely hate 0W-20 oil. If there’s any sort of aggressive driving happening, you gotta switch it out. The fuel economy benefits of 0W-20 over 5W-30 are extremely negligible.
Track/canyon customers of ours are all running 5w30
I vouch for those Australian brakes. I used those with Dot4 brake fluid, Hawk HP+ pads, steel braided lines and running 215 tires on my RSX at Road Atlanta with a brutal braking zone on the back straight. No overheating or fade after 20 min sessions on a hot day. Interesting though, I upgraded to 235 width with lighter wheels years later at the same track and had smoking rotors and pads after coming off the track. I think the extra tire mass or unsprung weight maybe was the culprit.
I have DC5S and got a set of RPF1 in 17x7 +45 (stock wheel size) and they weigh 14.8lb and the Advan AD09R tires weigh 22lb for a 36lb per corner combo.. made a gigantic difference over the OEM 17x7 @ 22lb each. Most people go wider for their tires and wheels without fully utilizing the previous size @ the stickiest tires they can buy.
For me, it makes no sense to expect a manufacturer to warranty your race car. That said, what's the point of having this capability if you're not able to use it. If Toyota is misleading the public about the BRZ or GR86's track abilities as a sales point, it seems to me they have a responsibility to recall it and fix the problem. If you mod it to be more competitive, that's on you, and I believe it should void the manufacturer's warranty. Blowing your engine is a bitter pill to swallow, so always proceed with caution. When building a race purpose track car the warranty is your wallet. Either way, it pays to make damned sure your car can handle what you're throwing at it. The old track mechanic's rule of thumb is every $1.00 spent on active go fast upgrades should have $3.00 spent on passive upgrades to handle it.
Basically everything I have seen is that if you plan to push your Gen 2 BRZ/GR86 then you need to be mindful of oil pressure and do some mods to mitigate pressure drops in hard turns. Even something as over filing with higher weight oil can have a big impact. Seems your average user will be fine, but we will see 5 or so years from now.
It was mentioned that a baffled oil pan doesn't help the issue, but I really don't see how oil starvation could be a key issue and a baffled oil pan doesn't help. At this point, I think they're basically required on a boxer engine that's going to the track.
Tomei makes an Oil Pan Baffle Plate. Assuming you don't have the RTV issue, I think this design has the highest chance of keeping oil where it belongs. I think if someone made an oil pan / baffle combo that increased the oil capacity that would be event better.
I've been interested in upgrading to a Gen2 car, but without being able to fit a UEL (I have no doubt they'd deny warranty over that CEL) I'm thinking about other options. I just don't enjoy the sound of the engine with the standard manifold.
Subaru motors scare me, I know people with foresters that use them to cart round kids and just regular stuff and they still loose their engine with lower miles sub 100k. I won't even consider buying a gr86 or BRZ because of they have subaru engines.
Subaru has made good rally race engines for decades. And this is not just a typical Subaru engine; Toyota also had total input on the design to try and insure reliability. That's why it has the D4-S injection system for example. It's not a bad engine, it's just not a race car engine. Sadly in life you often get what you pay for, as these guys alluded to, so if you really want a reliable race/track car, you'll either need to do careful extensive mods or get a Porsche or something.
Fairly new to Gr86 ownership and i'm more fast road/ rare track use driver. More data is now available and it seems shallow oil pan vs boxer engine and where the oil pick up is located are more of a factor than the RTV. Causing big oil pressure drops in high G right hand turns. For an easy low cost low level of protection improvements in preventing oil pressure drop in high G corners were seen by overfilling by about half a litre of oil.
That’s interesting about the correlation with grippy tires. How many seconds of oil starvation would be enough to start causing such damage?
this is quite interesting, and for me, personal-irony! I'm eyeing the GR as eventual replacement for my 2005 RX-8 ....a noted "time bomb" of some internet-infamy. That said, mine is still on original engine/tranny after being beat-upon for 100K+ miles. Maybe I should just keep tracking it?? ;-P
As the owner of a turbo e85 450whp rx8. If you’re keeping it as your track car and premixing and using 20w50 oil every 2500 miles and no smog stuff and you redline consistently. That engine can last almost another 100k. My last NA one made it to 200k original engine and never lost compression. Lost a trans and a clutch before I lost compression. I’d say keep tracking it if it’s only a track and canyon car
Thanks for this video! I have stock GR86 6AT and dont plan to drop pan or add oil cooler until warranty is up. Im also a novice driver just running Conti DWS06+ tires, so for HDPE events, I try not to shift past 7k, and the 2 tracks Ive been to, I was in 3rd/4th gear the whole time. 2 track days so far, and planning to do 1-2 HPDE yearly during fall/spring seasons only. Oil temps reach around 240F max after about 11-12 laps of novice/conservative driving. Also really liked what Chris said about "mechanical sympathy" I think of my car as my trophy and not a lap time chaser, so Im more focused on driving the car home safely and keeping that "mechincal sympathy" in mind
Great video, guys. I'm curious, did any of the example engine failures specify what oil weight they were running?
this is such a huge issue for this platform. the main appeal of the Toyobaru twins is that they're track friendly with their balance, lightweight, and cheap consumables.
8:05 The use of the dry sump oil system isn't limited to GTs in Porsche's lineup. My 987.2 Cayman 9A1 engine has a dry sump.
I haven't finished the vid, but if I bought a new 86, I would use a group 4 synth oil, optionally change oil after or before the event, get the RTV fix and a baffled oil pan. One of the suggestions a Cayman tuner (MotoIQ) recommended was getting a baffled oil pan when upgrading the suspension and getting stickier tires. The idea being, when the cornering G's go up, so does the risk of oil starvation.
I’m on my 15th season of SCCA competition and the understanding has always been that you leave your warranty at the starting line. Anything that happens on track is not covered by the warranty.
It’s interesting watching this situation play out with the 86 crowd. I wish you all good luck. Any concessions about track use that you can get from the manufacturers will certainly help the rest of us in the future.
Great idea to share the information and prompt discussion.
In factory trim the vehicle should not be able to overheat and oil pickup blocking is 100% a factory defect that should be recalled or covered.
I'm not sure it's reasonable to suggest that you need to run different grade oil (which is worse under normal operating conditions), modify the cooling system, or be responsible for watching the oil temp' gauge like a hawk in this day and age. The car should also have appropriate safeties in the ECU with alarms to tend to oil pressure, temp', fuelling limits etc. prior to catastrophic failure.
Stock pads are probably the only exception there (and incidentally there's no way any rotors are enough to save stock pad turds on track).
In regard to oil starvation it shouldn't be an issue when fitted with any commercially available/legal tyre like a 200TW. Easy to test with a log of oil pressure against lateral G so Toybaru definitely have this data and are fully aware of starvation limits. The only way baffles don't help with this issue is if it's an oil return issue like you see on deep skirt chev blocks, RB engines etc.
Once you modify the vehicle then it's fair to say it's on you to substantiate that modifications didn't contribute to a failure. It gets muddy to say they haven't designed the performance car for track duties either because there's every chance that people globally can run on legal roads under similar conditions eg. the 'ring. Cheers!
Great podcast felt like I was a fly on the wall to a great car convo and was able to follow.
Just remember all these problems are solved by just getting a s2000 😂
So, it sounds like the best preventative measure is to kswap. 😂
Buy a blown 86/brz 1gen and swap it for K24
I'm not shocked, Subaru engines aren't known for being super reliable.
Its what makes a Subaru...a Subaru.
Also hey....."they lived...."
They can be, if you take proper care of them.. but most of the young kids that came over from the Honda scene don't do that. They think they can beat on it, like they do their Honda's and it'll be fine but that's not the case. You have to pay to play with Subaru's. You have to do the interval maintenance's at specific mileage, you have to keep an eye on oil pressure, you have to check your oil every time you fill up.. You *HAVE* to have dyno tunes done for every little modification you do that affects air or fuel, like intakes or downpipe etc.. there's preventative maintenance that needs to be done and when you don't do it, they go to shit. On top of that, the engine design and stock oiling/baffle system is not a good combination. They can starve, if you take high G turns, as all of the oil will go to one side of the engine. It can be fixed with aftermarket parts but most people don't know that. They take their stock oil system Subaru on a track and it blows up because of the starvation and they just go "$%^@$ POS Subaru" and blame the car, when in reality, it's the owner.
@@hhaste Everything you just mentioned is why they aren't reliable in comparison to other brands
@@hhaste what aftermarket parts fix oil starvation during high g?
I know someone who blew 3 engines. The last one was stock, no aftermarket updates. Sticky tires, instructor driver. Toyota refused to cover any of the engines.
Great video! My takeaway is that if you want to grip-ify your BRZ/86 then dry sump/oil system upgrade is needed. I've recently got a 2012 BRZ with supercharger and suspension mods so this is interesting to me (for now not looking at putting the car on track)
Very informative episode 👍🏻. If you’re gonna do more episodes over video call I suggest a external mic. You and topher’s audio was muddy compared to jubbal
I honestly don't care about toyota paying for it, I just want to be able to track my GR86 without having the anxiety of knowing that the engine will evnetually blow up. I'm ready to pay money to solve this issue but there's none
Another question is does the 2022+ WRX suffer from the same issue being the same engine? As I've seen heaps of them being tracked and no issues so far that I know of?
uh ive seen 2016+ wrxs blow up randomly even while babied and driven normally, but nothing for the 22+.
Engine builder / machinist here since 2010, not saying this will prevent all failures, but it’s crazy that people are using the OEM weight oil. At least 10w40 if not 15w40.
there is a video on here of a few brz/gr86 owners data logging oil pressure and they found right hand turns cause large dips in pressure. they used a previous gen as a control.
Hey Fenton, enjoying your videos as always. I’d be very interested in what you might have to say on ZCT about PPF. To do or not to do? Reasons why? I can’t imagine you haven’t considered this issue, especially since you track your cars. Even for daily drivers - is it worth the cost?
I'd love to have you do an oil analysis just to see where the engine health is at.
I wonder if this a problem with the WRX? Very similar engine
I dont understand why people are surprised that stock cars made for street use break on track 😅 just put the suporting mods that goes with the type of driving that you want to achieve, if you want sustained high G's just add a dry sump and fix fuel starvation issues also add cooling mods and race oil and good fuel, even race cars with all the mods often break on track 😅 its just the way it is, no matter the car model it will still break at some point
This was a really insightful video, thanks guys!
I’m in Australia and recently put in an order for a new BRZ set to arrive early 2024. Knowing these issues existed, even well before ordering mine, obviously didn’t stop me from getting one.
The preventative practices that you discussed are exactly what I will be doing with my car. Infrequent track use and minimal modifications other than maybe an exhaust, etc. are on my radar. Might drop the oil pan to check the oil pickup for RTV after a couple months of driving as a check-up too.
As well as using a higher quality oil like a 5W30 and regularly changing it, along with an aftermarket oil cooler, are there any other practices that you reckon will assist in further preventing any issues? And would these two practices mentioned above have a chance at voiding the warranty? I’ve seen some debate over what you can and can’t do in this space in order to avoid warranty issues. Seems you have to tip-toe a little…
It's pretty general advice but from my research it's even more important on Subarus that you don't lug the engine i.e., make sure you're not flat footing it at 2000rpm or less. You'll feel it if the engine is happy or not. Also let it get up to operating temps before driving and even moreso driving it hard. Not only will it cause less wear on the engine but it will drive better too (transmission fluid takes a fair while to get up to temperatures where it starts shifting smoothly).
Outside of oil starvation and rod bearings, connecting rods are a point of failure mainly when boosted. Regardless, the conrods are designed to operate best for high rpm not low rpm, hence why lugging is a bad idea. Yes you will lose a little bit of fuel economy but it's a small price to pay imo.
A lot of guys recommend change of oil after break in period 1000-2000kms to remove metals and contaminants and there's good evidence to support that, but it won't be a part of scheduled maintenance. I personally did this.
Depending on where you live in Aus it might not be a good idea to go 5w-30. 0w-20 does a better job protecting the engine during cold starts and cold climates. I find it takes longer for a boxer to reach operating temps compared to an inline 4, so it's not inconsequential.
Adding an oil cooler can definitely affect warranty claims. It might not void your claim if the worst occurs, but it will definitely make the situation more complicated. Also dropping the oil pan is the same deal, could complicate warranty claims especially if not performed by the dealer.
Personally, I feel a bit more apprehensive about track use in Australia since a lot of the track marketing was for the US. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you had to escalate a warranty claim beyond the dealership if tracking was involved. The biggest thing is don't moneyshift. They have datalogs to see how high the car has been revved and at what mileage (hence why it's good to respect the break-in period) and I believe Subaru can even see if you've taken it to a track.
All that is to say: Try to play by their rules if you want them to honor their warranty.
@@harrybuhse8622 Thanks for your reply mate.
I’ve definitely heard a lot about lugging the engine and is something that definitely comes down to the driver. Definitely agree that it’s worth the slightly worse fuel economy in the long run. And obviously any person who cares about the well-being of their car should let it get up to temp before any serious driving.
I think it’s important to be respectful of the break-in period as you mentioned, especially on these cars, and will take your advice on changing the oil around 1-2k kms. Can you explain why 0W-20 does a better job at protecting the engine in cold temps as opposed to 5W-30? I live in South East Queensland. Have you had any issues with your BRZ and what is your advice on maintenance?
As much as I think it’s a good idea to drop the oil pan periodically, it does complicate things as you say especially if not performed by a dealer. Then again, I’m not confident that my dealership would do this for me if I asked unfortunately. It is what it is I suppose.
Thanks again for the advice. What’s your personal experience been like in owning a BRZ in Aus? Would love to hear more.
@@alexmcrae7274 I reckon don't sweat the oil pan unless you are really into tracking it and run sticky tyres since any RTV blockage should be negligible overall. It's when you complicate it with high sustained Gs there might be some moments for wear to occur.
Very cool car. It's my first rear wheel drive car and as a young male it's certainly a liability 😂
I get the hype behind oversteer that's for sure. I have to remind myself to be careful though since I don't have the experience and driving habits needed to catch the car with traction control and stability off properly. Even if the roads are slightly greasy the car is ready to play and it's easy to underestimate just how quickly it will spin. It's a good dose of horrifying and humbling and I'm just grateful I haven't gotten involved in an accident before learning to respect the car. Unfortunately I don't have any roads that would be good to practice on at the moment, and there's a fair bit of preparation involved for a track day.
If you're getting a BRZ S model the tyres can be pretty loud over bad roads and the sound system leaves a bit to be desired. I've gotten used to it now but I'm getting a 2-way speaker upgrade (aprox. $600 including labour) to fix that up. Fuel economy isn't horrendous but it's also not amazing since you're filling up with 95 at the minimum. I use 98 and have gotten about 7.9L/100km over 16,000kms with a decent amount of highway. Roughly $80 a tank at these fuel prices.
I bought an axleback exhaust to get a little more noise over stock and I'm happy with it. I don't want to be a cop magnet so I got an exhaust that meets Japanese regulations which is a little quieter than Australian regulations. Any catback/axleback exhaust will give you pops and bangs on downshifts in specific circumstances just a heads up haha. I'm sure it's not a huge deal but even though gen 1 brz/86 exhausts bolt up to new cars the diameters are slightly narrower than gen 2 exhaust setups so keep that in mind when looking to buy.
Other than that, the doors are long so be careful where you park. You have a button to fold your mirrors in which can be pretty useful. Don't worry about people saying the car is slow because this isn't the US. You'll be faster than a lot of cars on the road especially Qld. It's got great torque between 3000-4000rpm.
Track mode can tell you your oil and coolant temps. There's also a tyre pressure monitoring screen that's made me aware of two tyre punctures already which is pretty bad luck.
I did get ppf and ceramic coating which is awesome but it's not for everybody. Depends how bad rock chips bother you. I just touched up the paint from rock chips on my last car but I didn't want to do that this time around.
The biggest thing that bothers me is how easy it is to scratch the steering wheel. I've already scratched it 3 times getting in and out. It's easy to do and I've never scratched the wheel on any other car I've been in. Idk what the solution is there. Careful with your keys and your nails even if they're short. It can and will happen.
As for 0w-20 vs 5w-30 it's best to look that information up since others will be able to explain it far better than me. Essentially they have different optimal operating temperatures, where 0w-20 is some of the best available for keeping high viscosity during low temperatures which will be the case every time you do a cold start. The faster that oil is able to lubricate the engine the better and that's what it does well. It even does a pretty remarkable job in heat too considering, but if you're out doing track days often in the heat, 5w-30 would likely be a better choice since it won't thin out as much at high temperatures if you're reaching them. I've reached about 105⁰C on the street driving spiritedly, where 130⁰C is considered too hot. So personally, I couldn't justify 5w-30 with the sort of driving I do, nor an oil cooler since air to oil coolers can make your oil take longer to get up to temps as well.
Sorry that was really long hope it was useful :)
@@harrybuhse8622 Wow mate! Thanks for that reply. Absolute gold. Really appreciate it. Loads of great info there which I will definitely remember and research more. Cheers! :)
The RTV issue really depends on how hard you drive. If driven on a heavy duty schedule you got to pay close attention to the seals and engine like a quirky older car
For what it's worth, I dropped the oil pan on my 2023 GR86 at 1000 miles and 2500 miles. At 1000 miles there was a disturbing amount of RTV on the pickup. At 2500 miles there was virtually nothing.
are you tracking the car? I've heard of these issues, I also own a 2023'. I am at about 4.5k miles and have yet to drop the pan at all, but I do not drive it hard at all; just highway/city driving for the most part. I realize maybe I should consider dropping it but then have also heard that doing so voids warranty and having a dealer do it costs about 400$ or so... so I am curious as to what kind of driving you are doing considering the RTV in your pick up.
@avilescarlos411 I am tracking the car and running it on 20p TW tires. Also Installed oil cooler and dual level oil baffle. Running 5w30 oil. After four thousand miles in several track days, she's still holding strong. Pray that keeps up. If you're street driving the car on stock tires, you're probably OK not dropping the oil pan but that's just my opinion.
@@throker praying for you man ! Haha, I hate that all these malfunctions are occurring to such a beautiful car. I bought it for its looks, to be honest. Not tracking it, not racing it, just cruising and some grandpa driving lol I have barely revved it past 4k RPMS, and redlined maybe once or twice
So, all in all; I am calm about it for the most part but it’s still super unfortunate cause the car is amazing both to drive and gaze at
Crappy mpg and engine on such a cool car.
unrelated to the RTV issue but it came up in this chat so I figured I'd bring it up. If you guys can ever find someone with an inline 4 swapped brz/gr86 that you can review, I'd love to officially once and for all hear what kind of difference the change in center of gravity makes in driving dynamics.
What advice could you give to one that’s getting their new ‘23 BRZ after waiting 13 months since ordering and turned in their 2020 WRX because everyone I met at the track was on their rebuilt WRX motor. Purpose of the BRZ was to be a roughly 10 year track car and build it further into a track car over time. This news gives me the jitters
I know 4 brz 86 onwers on track from last year Oct，3 of them already blow up lol
I have 2018 Brz ts. Daily driven. First owner. 77k miles. Done all my maintenance at the dealer. Just recently. I went to take it in for an oil change and they notice metal shaving in the motor oil. Is that common???
I would argue autox is as straining if not more straining on car than track. Throwing it side to side is more violent, you sometimes have to bounce off the rev limiter depending on course and layout. Not as much sustained high revs/heat, but def more thermal stress from going all out for a min then full cool down.
Interesting counterpoint
There's a video of a guy who had catastrophic oil starvation issues with his gr86 and he was just putzing around the track in 4th gear with brakes.
Finally a comment about that guy. He was keeping the car in the 5 to 7k range for no reason at all. Literally just letting it run at high RPM through entire laps at low speeds. His oil temps were pushing 260 and he kept redlining the car. How much abuse did this car have that we didn't see? Plus he was tracking it with the AC on, lol. Toyota STILL bought him a new engine. No way I would drive my car like this. It's one thing to use revs to pull a car and it's quite another to run it up there.
I guess I'm just irritated that this one video caused so many misconceptions about why it blew up
I haven’t watched the full video yet so sorry if this was already mentioned but how can we “bulletproof” these cars?
I have heard doing mods like magnetic oil plug, air-oil-separator (or catch can), dual radiator (or oil cooler), & oil baffle plate?
Good job on bringing light to this issue 👍🏽 I wish someone did this with the GT350. The engines seem to spontaneously blow up for no reason and its a hot topic.
I feel like using the 5W-20 Oil might be a bad idea though because that would give Toyota or Subaru an easier way to deny your claim since its not the "recommended oil"
Recommended oil is 0w20/5w30. 5w20 falls right between. There should be anything to worry about, unless you live in an extreme cold winter location.
Agreed, would've loved to see something similar regarding GT350 voodoo Motors... Although I heard oil starvation was the causes - the culprit being the vibration of high revs loosening oil filter off over time. Regardless, I'd think a low-oil indicator would've warned drivers...
I was under the impression that all Porsches use a drysump in their boxer engines because they know about the inherent shortcomings of the boxer engine in sporting applications
They used to but since 996 save for I think the turbos gt2 gt3 and gt4rs they have "integrated dry sump" which is really just wet sump but with baffling and multiple pickups
Interesting, either way that is significantly more than you get from Subaru.
I honestly think that these motors just need frequent 1,000 mile oil changes with good quality oil. (Motul, Eneos, etc..) I have 6 track days with 6k miles.
The truth is people who blow their motors don’t change or monitor the oil as frequently. 3k miles on this motor is already to much with no track days. Also use 5w30 oil. 0w20 was just to satisfy EPA. Also oil coolers saves the motor. Baffles do not help.
Lol, do oil change every day if you want to do those blindly. Test the oil after use if you are that sure.
@@ruturaj47 Lol I’m just saying. I track my car and take it to the canyons very often.
@@Shinigami_1320 you have survivors bias. If the oil is still good after 1k miles, there isn't any benefit to changing it and you won't know unless you send it out for testing.
I wonder how much of a correlation there is between these engines blowing up on the track and the owners not properly wearing in the engine 🧐
Plus one, on this very good question ...
My worry is them saying you put other than specified oil weight in the engine and void your warranty for that
I'm worried about this too. It's frustrating because running the OEM oil will drastically increase risk of engine failure.
@@Zygrene same with oil cooler, cleaning the RTV, a baffle, accusump, AOS etc. Or even heavier fluid in the trans (the factory 75W is too thin). You get penalized for trying to take care of your car
I could be wrong (I’ll check the manual) but I could have sworn it also says 5w-30 was fine. Or maybe it said 5w-20 I forget. 😅I’ll triple check it!
brz/86 dream team right there, lol!! thx for the deep dive, i'm in the Topher's camp, keep it as a fun slow car, respect it's limits - Spec Miata if I'm gonna seriously get into tracking and have the money!
Man this really blows!
What are the odds of mine blowing if I just do spirited rural drives and occasional donuts?
I want an 86 so bad, but really dont want the boxer engine...might wait to see what the 2025 rumours bring.
I love boxer engines personally, but would prefer my Toyota to come with a Toyota engine. KillerB Motorsports is currently in extensive R&D for a unique oil pan baffle that does indeed remedies the oil starvation issues. They even got some customers that run track days doing some field testing now. Once the appropriate design has made it to market than no more issues. Just a cult classic car living out its years without infamy.
There is a reason why oil pans and pickups are popular mods on other cars that have Boxer engines lol. If you're tracking any car with one of them those are the first mods you should really have done.
Wow. Talk about grasping at straws. Trying to link "tampering" with brake caliper bolts to engine failure feels like quite a smokescreen. What a nightmare. I know someone with a new Mustang GT that had a small scrape, when it was on the lot. The dealer said they rubbed a hose on it while detailing, and would take care of it. 3 months later, the dealer is still giving him the runaround. I can only imagine the exponentially greater headache on a huge ticket item like a blown engine. Lots of obnoxious wording - "high RPM", "driven at high speed". If they are smart, there will likely be some "quiet" (so as to not imply it was ever their fault) modifications coming to future model years. Good luck. I have a Gen 1 BRZ, but have not tracked it.
Also, Porsche has proven there is no inherent design issues with flat engine designs (but they have had their issues over the years, and cost more than a BRZ to fix in most cases lol). Subaru's engines have never been designed for the track however, and are designed for regular use. They don't include Air-Oil seperator systems like Porsche engines do, nor do they have extremely well baffled oil pans, over-designed oiling systems, or dry sump oiling systems from the factory. If you want to see what CAN be done to make these engines work for racing uses, just look at all of the rally teams and what they've had to do with the engines the last 30+ years to make them work well for racing purposes.
What do you consider proof? I think Porsche has proven if you spend enough money you can engineer around issues. The engine placement in the rear is just another example. That doesn't negate the inherent risk relative to other engine designs. On a lateral corner, oil doesn't drain from the head to the pan like a V engine. A long sweeping corner on track, or even highway off ramp, can cause the pickup to suck air. That's a topic they talk about in this video. The reason modern Porsche flat engines don't have the same issue is due to a hybrid wet/dry sump or full dry sump. I love my Subaru, but all cars have pros and cons. Like you said, these are street cars and perform well in that space. They're not race cars. Also, the EJ257 has an air oil separator from the factory, but people often upgrade to compensate for track driving. Not sure about the FA engines.
@@QuintonLeister Inline and V engines have compromised design issues to that have to be compensated for, like inherent imbalance and gravity pulling oil down away from the head too. I've seen plenty of EA888's blow smoke during corners, Honda engines grenade on the track, and plenty of V engines including a new ZR1 die during track use. There is no "perfect" ICE engine for racing at any price.
The EJ257 just has a standard PCV system same as any EJ engine, nothing at all like what Porsche includes.
@@stevemartegani oh, for sure. Every design comes with pros and cons.
I mention the factory AOS on the EJ because while it’s nothing like Porsche, it does have one. Obviously it leaves much to be desired. Especially, when increasing boost. The PCV system is something I monitor closely on my STi.
Since last year, it has been rumored that Toyota is already working on a next gen 86. I wonder if this is why
It's my understanding that toyota has a difficult time managing the ongoing "subaru engine" related issues. They are developing a toyota built gr86 which is scheduled to release in 2024/25 and have the 3 cylinder that's currently in the GR Corolla with some sort of intergrated hybrid setup.
@@Yul-Uhlu Will it still be manual?
They definitely knew and sold it anyways. Very much riot worthy.
My question is I have a 23 brz… you covered people that track and auto cross… what about people like myself that don’t track or auto cross… occasional canyon/mountain run and mostly hwy driving…. If your not pushing crazy g’s like on the track is this really even an issue? (You did mention it in the end after I posted)
I have a 23 gr86 and do mostly mountain driving. Got about 12k on the car now and no problems. Push pretty hard sometimes. I don't think you'll know you have a problem until it's to late.
@@rutleyj your not pushing high g's on the street for extended periods so I dont see how this would be a problem at all. Do you plan on doing anything?
Is this where the aftermarket should be helping? Wouldnt a re-designed oil pan and/or pickup remedy this?
Curious about this too.
Yeah there's a huge market for this now, I bet. Killer B is working on a baffle. It's under testing now
Boxer engines have oil pool in the heads in high G corners. this is why Porsches have scavenger pumps in the heads and/or are dry sump. Miatas can handle 1.5G on stock oiling
Its a proof inline 4 owns boxers all day.
The FA engines have factory baffling to combat head surge. Unlike old EJ. The FA24's problem is more in the timing cover.
@@VinRZ interesting... Hope the FA24 oiling gets solved soon
I have a 2023 BRZ just bought it this week, i was aware of the issue and i thought because i am not tracking it i should be ok. But i have back to back round abouts on my way home from work and i usually take them pretty hard, 1G is normal. I don't usually rev it that hard cause i dont want to wake people up so the oil temp is never really high. All that being said, what are the chances i blow my engine doing this, hypothetically of course. Please tell me it is fairly unlikely, it's literally the best part of my day.
Did you guys install an oil baffle in your engines? That should reduce the risk of oil starvation during high G cornering. What about those owners who had engine failures, did they install oil baffles?
Is this not almost the same issue with WRX STI where they need an oil baffle because the G forces in continued turns prevents oil from properly getting circulated? Y'all touched on this but also said oil baffles were not a fix (I think, if I heard right). Disappointing to see all around but hopefully it gets pinpointed down.
Yes, one of the issues. Wish they talked about flat engines being the common trait between the STi and BRZ. From what I gather, oil starvation is a risk on any flat engine. The risk depends on pan design and other variables (i.e. wet vs dry sump). On a lateral corner, oil doesn't drain from the head to the pan like a V engine. That might be why we see oil starvation on cars with flat engines more than other designs. With that said, plenty of people drive cars like the STi and BRZ within their engine's intended purpose (street) without issue. My 05 STi has been extremely reliable and the reason I don't upgrade the oiling system is because it's street driven on all seasons tires.
Until this issue is fixed I won’t buy one. I want to get one later but unless this problem is fixed I will not buy one and might go with something different if it is not fixed by the time I am ready. I bought a new Forester Wilderness recently and planned on adding a BRZ in a year when Forester was paid off. Love my Forester and I had not heard of this issue at all until I started watching BRX GR 86 videos and researching them
Man, but I don't want an automatic Outback. If it was manual, different story. So frustrating. Miata is too small and dangerous for Minnesota, GR86 has RTV issues, and Outback is automatic. So frustrating!
I hate to say it, but the truth is self evident. The GR86 engine is flawed and unreliable due to both design and manufacturing defects. A sports car that can’t handle a corner without blowing the engine is not a good sports car. It’s not even a good car at that point. There are reports of these engines failing without any track use at all. No, this isn’t driver error. Side note, money shifting is more myth than reality. It’s pretty rare that someone misses a shift so badly and gets into gear that the valves get bent. Most track transmissions and cars are designed for engine braking and high RPM conditions. Unless it’ has a GR or Subaru badge on it apparently.
What do you mean over rev the car? It has a rev limiter, unless you are downshifting at high RPM this should not be an issue.
These cars are more accessible to many which means more cars sold and more cars see track work. Are we hearing all of this because of the numbers?