Saddle Hunters! 3 Ways you CAN Back it up!!!

Assisted breaking devices can be confusing if you're new to them. Backing them up isn't complicated. Here are three ways you can do so; there are many more than just these three.I prefer to tie a hard back up, usually an overhand on a bite. Practice from the ground prior to trying anything at height. If you are unsure of anything you see on TH-cam seek professional guidance, I recommend a climbing or mountain guide as a means to learn the use of climbing devices, knots, hitches, etc.
Here are links showing how climbing guides back up assisted breaking devices.
• How to go Hands-free W...
• AMGA Single Pitch Inst...

[@thomasbellman1812]

This comes up on saddle hunting forums and videos a lot and it is nice to understand why madrock says to not tie a knot or add a braking device to the brake side of the rope. They are stating this when it is being used as a belay device for climbers. Your video was very helpful and I appreciate you sharing your climbing knowledge and demonstrating how to back up the device. Thank you!

[@thefullaj]

You’re welcome. I’m glad I could help.

[@mikeguy9668]

Needed this, im a saddle hunter

[@jackgibson7151]

I appreciate you posting this! Using the MadRock for the first time this Fall!

[@thefullaj]

Absolutely, just remember practice on the ground until you’re comfortable and sure whatever system you use is secure, then practice more.

[@enjoytheoutdoors1018]

Thanks for sharing. I always backup my grigri device with a friction hitch on the break line so I can be hands free when I need to, and this also gives me peace of mind when the device slips. (Because these devices do slip)

[@thefullaj]

You're welcome, there are many ways to do it. As long as we are backing it up or being redundant in our system we can add a degree of safety vs not.

[@ToddCBrown]

How refreshing to hear a climber explain this. I've been using a Cornell hitch above my Mad Rock. Awkward is a kind description.

[@thefullaj]

Ha, I’m not the most familiar with more of the arborist hitches, room for improvement. As I continue to learn and practice with spliced eye hitch cords I still find sewn or tied loops to be a bit simpler, that speaks to experience or lack there of. As long as it works and is redundant the world is our oyster, that’s what I love about saddle hunting.

[@trxe420]

Now this makes sense, I could never understand why an autoblock or a other friction hitch would interfere with a saddle hunting scenario because of the application.

[@youtoober87]

Good video. I would suggest trying an alpine butterfly instead of the bight you are using as a back up. it is easy to tie and easy to untie even after a load. Regarding backing up with a friction hitch on the brake side, the risk I see, which you mentioned, is that the friction hitch if too close to the device, could tend the mad rock, and the mad rock could tend the hitch. resulting in slippage/fall.

[@thefullaj]

The alpine butterfly is not as easy to teach as a quick bite knot, the amount of loading isn’t significant enough to justify spending the “extra time” to tie the Alpine butterfly, but you are correct. As for the the friction hitch on the break strand tending, I’m not sure I follow what you’re saying, if you post a video to see that would be helpful.

[@troysmith786]

I was told you can not put anything like you demonstrated under the madrock like that!!! It could cause the madrock to break!!!

[@thefullaj]

I was told the same thing, by mad rock. It's the context of use. If you read the instructions the way we are using it, positioning on fixed line and rappelling, are not discussed. It is common practice, to tie off an ABBD when positioning or ascending/rappelling a fixed line. I personally do not use a Safeguard nor do I recommend them, I prefer to use a GriGri.

[@Pygex]

There was another guy who had talked with Mad Rock and said they claimed that the rope on the break side must move so that the cam can engage and the load in the device applies to the correct spot, otherwise you risk damaging or breaking the device.
By looking at the Mad Rock Safeguard instruction manual drawings it should be clear that under regular use, the cam pinches the rope and the axis on the cam will hold your weight.
What Mad Rock seems to be concerned about is a situation where you load the rope from the break side without allowing the cam to move. This could cause the load to be applied on the smaller axis that is on the nose of the device or on the side plate, which probably has not been rated as that is considered improper use, see for example this case where the side plate of the GriGri will be ripped completely off on a cross loaded carabiner with a stopper not on the break strand to prevent slipping: th-cam.com/video/_-WC1jYHxVM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=8exRsrHflUgAro3V&t=362 they also break a Beal Birdie similar way at 11:50, the plate took off at around 12kN instead of the 7kN for GriGri so the value for Safeguard can be anything.
From the manual we can conclude the following:
If you want to replace your hand on the breaking strand, it must be done in such a way that A, the method does not enter in the device and B, the method allows for slippage of the breaking strand under proper load while the cam is open (your body weight). That is, you are allowed to add friction on the breaking strand but it should not be able to hold you in place when you open the cam.
This could make something like a couple turn Autoblock made from a short accessory cord a perfect friction hitch to use as it easily slips.
Obviously, if you have very little slack and the stopper knot is right near the device it should be ok enough as you will only generate a force of 1-2kN, but in case of a serious fall there is a risk of prying the device off the rope, thus it is not something the manufacturer can recommend.

[@kyledobson1607]

So if I’m one sticking with my GriGri Plus, would you recommend tying a bite on the brake hand side when I climb?

[@thefullaj]

Yes. I haven’t used the plus I’m a saddle hunting situation only while rock guiding; with that I’m not 100% sure as to what setting is going to be best for one sticking (lead or top rope). I’d recommend finding a hill, tying your rope to a tree, and testing how it feeds in both positions to see what works best for you.

[@kyledobson1607]

@@thefullaj would it be better to do the bite or have an auto block, since there will be some slack in the system? With the bite it would probably put a lot more stress on the GriGri in a fall.

[@thefullaj]

What kind of rope are you using, dynamic or static? I’m running a a grigri 2 with a dynamic rope and tie a bite knot. I’m reading more studies that are mountain rescue related that confirm my thoughts on high tenacity static lines. With that I don’t recommend one sticking with a static line. If you are using a dynamic line tie the bite knot as an auto block or any friction hitch has the ability to jam into the device if there is a fall.

[@thefullaj]

@kyledobson1607 feel free to reach out on Instagram if you need more guidance @the_full_aj I can provide you with the information I have and resources for you to research more.