Top 10 GoT Characters NOT Ruined by David and Dan
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- A Game of Thrones top 10 ranking list of the characters David and Dan did not ruin in seasons 7 and 8. Characters like The hound/Sandor Clegane, Tormund, Brienne of Tarth, Jorah Mormont, and Theon Greyjoy are done justice in the later seasons.
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Timestamps:
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3 (9:11)
2 (10:11)
1 (11:37) - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
If Joffrey had been in the eighth season, he would have said, in reality, that Ned Stark was like a father to me
Trans father 😂
Bran: “Joffrey…”
*Joffrey looks back solemnly*
Bran: “…you’re a good man”
@@jj947LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOO
@jj947 imagine a mfing joffrey redemption arc lol
"He was right all along. Winter really came" 😂
For me, Drogon had the best arc in the end... for so long he was portrayed as a ruthless and mindless beast, but at the end when his mother is killed, he shows a real understanding of the political machinations that lead to her death, and instead of exacting cliche revenge on her killer, he destroys the very object that was the source of all the fighting... truly an iconic end to his character arc...
He truly came so far *sniff* truly taking after his mother *sniff* it makes one so e m o t i o n a l when he just.. Forgets that he was born a beast.
I'm sure Drogon will be named the heir of Bran in the future, no one else has just a political understanding and he'd be a wondrous next One Eyed Crow, for certain (if we use that fan theory)
He also senses Jon’s Targaryan blood. I feel like if anyone other than Jon killed Dany they would have been reduced to ash in a second.
Plus he also ate her body, so he got a meal too!😂
He should still have showed the cliche, it would have been better.
Picture this: he kills Jon out of rage, roars, then burns the Iron throne. It would serve the same purpose AND it would be more realistic. You can be civilized all you can be, but if you are a sentient beast and witness someone killing your mother, you kill the killer. That's it hahahahaah
@@Liam.2000I’d like to thing that’s the only way to justify that insufferable ending but Dragons are not privy in killing Targs 😂
one thing I noticed recently that was really bad about the later seasons was how the characters started talking like modern people, George RR Martin has his characters talking like Medieval people, not literally but at the very least they don't sound like modern people, while the later seasons completely lost that
That bugged me too
The cracks in the effort became more and more noticeable unfortunately as time went on. Not to mention, they started making more of an effort to dumb down the show to make it more digestible for the larger audiences it was taking on.
Yes, this annoyed me as well. Tyrion's dialogue with Janos Slynt as he banishes him to The Wall is a great example of what you mean.
''We shall hear what Joffrey has to say about this!''
''No, we shan't.''
It was simple, but that use of the English language is something we don't generally see anymore, and it wasn't in S8 at all. It doesn't have to be Tolkien-esque. We do not need thees and thous. That's archaic, older than Medieval England too. But having them speak modern was out of place. I notice it a lot with modern products lately. Look at the difference in how people talk in God of War from 2018, and then how they talk in its direct sequel in Ragnarok from 2022. It made NO sense. Magni and Modi, the sons of Thor, talk like 9th century (English speaking) Norsemen, but then Thor, who's far older than them, somehow talks like a 2022 shitposter, and his own father who's literally billions of years old and would have literally been around before the English language even existed somehow talks like an actual hipster. It's so out of place and ruins so many products set in those settings. I don't care that it's fantasy. If you're going to base it on history and old cultures and mythologies, then do it properly.
“Not my type”
HOTD commits to the old-speak so hard, even more than the early GOT seasons
Theon being told he's a good man before facing down death and defending the one who he had arguably wronged the most was a nice end for him.
I really wish Sansa was more subtle in not liking Dany even eventually being quite warm towards her showing what she learned from Margery. I feel like she could've been a more emotional character to contrast the colder stark siblings. Have her more of a silk hiding steel character. Not to mention have her become the queen of the north through through more of a kinder perspective. Like show the wheel can be broken through not playing the game seeing how it cost Margery, Petyr and Cersei in the end.
That seems like a feel-good fairytale story for Sansa, not the kind of thing that fits in this universe.
Yeah this was something that was bugging me and I probably should have delved into. There is no complexity, hidden motivations, or any facades and it's just her blatantly and publicly disliking Dany. It accomplishes nothing and it makes no sense why she doesn't pretend to be her friend, but sabotage her behind the scenes like telling Tyrion about Jon. It makes it seem like she learned nothing and isn't as smart as everyone keeps calling her.
it made no sense to me, as far as I remember Daenerys not only didn't do anything wrong but she saved their asses and risked her army and in return Sansa treats her like shit, D&D wrote it like mean girls, it just made the whole situation less serious with how they had time being petty and acting like school girls, Dany crying about not being loved and it made no sense that they didn't like her when she's protecting them when North's culture is about loyalty and respect and Dany was loyal to them and treated them well, better than literally everybody else
@@SupercutsDelightshe outsmarted dany.
That was definitely one thing I thought they should have kept. Sansa never lost her kindness, but got smarter with who deserved it.
I wholeheartedly believe that the biggest factor in why every second GoT fan says that Tywin is their fav is because he died before it had gotten bad
One could say that the show actually fell off after his death
that and charles dance gives an easily top-3 performance. he was my favorite from the second season on, after my book faves (jaime, sansa, and cat primarily). i’m glad they didn’t get a chance to make his character worse, but i also know charles still would have killed his performance. or left the show.
@@carmina-solis He was my favorite too. Every scene with Charles Dance just gives me chills.
the way they wrote Sansa as this super smart Feminist character was so cringe because they clearly don't understand feminism, they think feminism is when a woman is icecold and acts like a man to be stronger and how she was almost saying getting r***d wasn't too bad, it was just weird, feminism isn't really about being ruthless or being manly or whatever they were trying to turn Sansa into
Virtually almost every character I've seen in the last 10 or so years that has been regarded as "feminist made" is like this. From Captain Marvel to Rey, they are so unbelievably "woman" I have to question if modern feminism even understands what women are like.
What's weird is the way to do it right has been there since the beginning: just make an Ellen Ripley. My girlfriend is a progressive feminist type and she loved Aliens when she saw it for the first time. That movie was made in the 80's too...why is it so hard to do that?
@@Justmonika6969 it all depends on the writers knowledge and understanding of politics and being educated on it, that's why these writers like GRRM, Dune's Frank Herbert or the Alien's writer have an actual understanding of the real world compared to these more generic writers who only write 'feminist' characters because its popular now and have a very shallow understanding of it and write these types of cringe girlboss flawless mary sue type of characters which just annoys people and annoys even actual feminists
that's why Ripley, Daenerys or Lady Jessica are better feminist icons than your generic mainstream girlboss character that has no flaws and is not really feminine neither
Fuck yeah, exactly my thoughts. They write all these “empowered” female characters like 80s action trope stoic men. It was cheesy then, it’s cheesy now.
That's exactly the result feminism has had though, LOL! Even if that wasn't the intent (and honestly if you go back as far as 1839-1864, it definitely was), that has been the result. Butch women acting like men. It got real prominent with second wave feminism. They were the ones introducing women wearing men's boots, leathers and motor jackets, short hair and shaved sides, piercings and tats, all the stuff that used to be traditionally masculine. It is 100% feminist of Sansa to act this way.
They didn't really write Sansa as "super smart." They just had Arya describe her as super smart. "Show, don't tell" is the first rule of writing.
I think the best part of Sandor Clegane's story was the last thing Arya said to him.... "Thank you Sandor." The only person in the entire series to actually call him by his name to his face. To me that was the completion of his arc. He was truly no longer 'The Hound', he was Sandor Clegane.
Bro you did not just say Sams season 6 character arc was worth it. He spent all that time at the citadel to learn something stannis told him directly in season 5
Stannis to Jon: "You need Dragonglass? There's a lot of it on Dragonstone, we can arrange it would be mined for the Night's watch"
Jon:
*later*
Sam: "OMG JON THERE IS DRAGONGLASS ON DRAGONSTONE WE NEED IT RN"
Jon: "WHAT WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW EARLIER"
The best development for David later on was him finally learning the difference between “less” and “fewer”
Davos
Olenna should've been Daenerys's hand of the queen
Too competent
Dany: "How should I go about this?"
Olenna: "Burn them all."
Dany: "What about the innocents?"
Olenna: "Fuck'em, they'd starve in the winter anyway."
**War crimes intensify**
No. Would never happen in the books.
@@tatersalad76I can hear her saying that 😂
@@Kujakuseki01over half of the shit in this show was never in the books.
"Like Tormund, i think he loses a lot of his complexity."
You're basically describing what every major character, and ultimately the entire storyline, suffers: the loss of complexity. In their rush to the finish line, Dumb and Dumber ironed out all the nuances in these fantastic characters, turning them flat and just barely interesting.
I agree with this list. Theon, Jorah, Brienne, and Sandor were definitely the standouts when it came to surviving D&D's awful writing
It’s genuinely shocking how big a leap 6 and 5 are. Grey worm “just existing” and Olenna genuinely continuing to be amazing is astonishing. Then to go from Olenna, who while amazing was only in what, 3 episodes of the final 2 seasons. Then to Theon, who consistently is amazing during the majority of season 7 and 8, really shows how bad the writing is if only 5 characters genuinely had fulfilling stories by the end, 1 of which wasn’t even in the final 10 episodes.
@@Shank5ter literally. its quite jarring
Ehhh Brienne was butchered imo ..
Brienne was turned into a little girl crying for Jaime.
@@yusufraage8554 she wasn't perfect. but at least to me, she didn't get completely butchered
I don't agree with having the Hound at #1. I think his redemption arc (if you want to call it that) is undercut by having his final moment be about exacting revenge on his brother. To me, it was quite dissatisfying. If they were gonna go for Clegane bowl, have Sandor's motivations be something other than revenge, like protecting someone he cares about.
I think even throughout his entire "redemption" he was always self centered and aggressive just no longer willing to hurt innocent people. The worst part about clegane bowl was how the mountain upon seeing sandor went from Robert strong immediately back to Gregor
Would have been much better to have Arya get into a fight with the mountain after trying to assassinate Circie and start getting her ass kicked because she's a 40kg girl against a 250kg zombie to have Sandor save her and die trying to stop Zombie mountain so you still get a reason for Arya being in KL
@@cbroo69I agree 100%. I thought Sandor’s end was pretty bad and that change would have made it excellent.
Agreed. If he died protecting Ayra from something (let’s say, The Mountain), it would have been heart wrenching, but a great ending
i saw it as him putting his brother down to stop him from being able to hurt people, but there was probably also a revenge element to it
Sansa... arggg I just don't like how the show did this "strong woman is icy cold and rarely shows her emotions" thing with her in the later seasons. You know that scene in HotD where Alicent talks to the servant girl that Aegon abused? Alicent clearly feels for the poor girl, but kinda uses that empathy to convince the servant girl to do what she wants? That's kinda where I see the books taking Sansa (um, except hopefully not in service of covering up and enabling abuse, like Alicent was doing). Book-Sansa learns to empathize with and complement her enemies, though she's got a lot to learn, her techniques have the potential to help her win the game of thrones.
Im glad you made this video, cuz these are the few things that actually made the later seasons good.
My only issue with Brienne is that.... she closed the book BEFORE THE INK COULD DRY!!
And she survived being stomped by zombies.
To be honest i always really cared about other people
Joffrey if he made it to s 8
i can't even deal with the line "sansa is the smartest person i know" when she's done nothing to show this.
Brienne filling out Jaime's page made me cry
They were all ruined. Clegane Bowl cooked up so the clowns who watched the show in bars could be appeased.
lol I feel like this is a shot at that bar that use to react to GOT on TH-cam
@@Kash_28it is, making fun of those twats was pretty popular right after season 8
The Hound is maybe also alive in the books, so him not being dead is fine
in a feast of crows Brienne of Tarth visits the quiet isle where the elder brother reveals to her Sandor Clegane is dead and the one wearing the hound head helm is not Sandor.
@@slayer26ithe Elder Brother also describes himself as having died. For him, death isn’t the act of dying, it’s overcoming the person you once were.
Also he doesn’t say Sandor died, he says the Hound died. The word choice is careful enough for it to be up for interpretation.
@@slayer26ilook up the gravedigger
@@slayer26i I'm so glad I'm not such a bad reader like you. Amazing how can someone read things in a superficial manner.
Theon's full arc will always be number one for me across the whole show
The Varys cough will always be iconic 😂
Podrick might be a smaller character, but he is so big he doesn´t even have to pay the prostitutes.
lmao
I love how Sansa kinda managed to keep her feet out of the fire. To me the main explanation to it is that her arch didn't rely at all into the fantasy flashy elements that other characters had at their disposal. She didn't have a dragon, wasn't an skilled assassin or had magical powers. That, at the end, was a blessing in disguise. Because the showrunners didn't try to go with her with an over the top, inexplicable, convoluted, inconsistent story. She was always there learning and stitching, and her arch comes as the closest to the first seasons philosophy.
the sansa of the books was never really there to begin with tho.
One month after the last episode, Winterfell is in chaos and the North has fallen. Sansa knows political moves and nothing else that's important. This got mary sued big time.
@@jacobenke7936 sansa was literally raised and given lessons since she could walk about how to be the lady of a great house by both catelyn and her teachers. she was born the first daughter of ned and cat stark, she was always going to be married to someone from one of the most powerful families in westeros and she was educated for that task. for all that the final season sucks, it does show her knowing about how to food storage, armor production, preparation for winter; things that her parents would have taught her. sansa knowing how to run winterfell is literally one of the only things that makes sense in the show's ending lmao
@@Delirium24 Read the books. Arya makes fun of her for it because she's NOT good at it. Sansa learned things like the high harp. Her lessons with the septa were mostly about sewing, and that she was good at. The lessons with Luwin she was not.
I was getting nervous that Sandor wouldn't be on this list. So glad he was perfectly placed in the #1 spot.
He was unironically always my favourite character (especially after his arch with Arya)
This list is so bad
I believe Davos confronting the red woman at the end of season 6 is the single best dialog from the season. You can feel the emotion. Also, his conversation with Tormund before the battle of the bastards was pretty good, because it provokes thoughts of how we would act in the same situation.
And I truly believe Tormund should have been killed when the wall fell. It would have removed some of the sense that characters were invincible. And we could have seen some emotion from Jon that wasn’t just about Dany.
Grey Worm... yeah, a lot of his actions in the final episode make no sense whatsoever, but that final moment of him sailing to Naath (ignoring the butterflies) is really bittersweet... ignoring everything else that happened leading up to it in that episode, it is one of the strongest moments of the season (though I guess that's not saying very much...)
The writers didn't know about it or they forgot. Grey worm definitely would know about it. To only show watchers it was a somewhat sweet ending. To book fans it was horrorfying.
@@PizzaPenguin650 I bet he chose to commit suicide via butterfly than be brought back for a sequel.
I don't get (like everything else at the end lol) what he was supposed to be thinking.
So Grey Warm actively partaked in killing surrendered soldiers, but undertood Dany was bad for mass killing people, and her assianation was somwhat justified but he still wanted Jon to be punished becuase Jon was only partially justified? So a reltively minor punishment is all that's needed???
If anything made sense, Grey Warm would kill Jon the second he found out what happened, or tourture him
Jon and grey worm should have done a trial by combat to decide the outcome of the seven kingdoms. Grey worm kills surrendered soldier's for breathing but allows Jon to kill his Queen and let's him live. They should have all rallied around Jon's claim to the throne and grey worm is outeaged at the idea. They decide to fight . The dothraki respect strength above blood and will accept the outcome of the fight and the westeros force outnumbers the remaining unsullied. Jon wins qnd reluctantly takes the iron throne. Ice and fire all that well written malarky they forgot about. Instead we got she's ma Queen and i don't want it.
agree to an extent about brienne. jaime knighting her, them getting together, and then brienne writing jaime's deeds in the book seemed like the only things from season 8 that were like, correct and supposed to happen based on their arcs and foreshadowing from previous seasons. (also there are a couple of shots of them fighting back to back during the long night that i thought were very poetic.) brienne's arc would have been massively improved by the writers giving her literally anything to do in the previous 2-3 seasons but at least we got something in the end.
I thought Davos got ruined for sure. He went from being a fantastic sidekick to Stannis to hitting on Missandei for some reason and being a brain dead sidekick to Jon.
I never bought into his immediate loyalty to Jon.
Grey Worm was definitely ruined by what you mentioned, the trial and Jon, guess it's hard to find characters unscathed but that's still messed him up for me
He doesn’t make any sense
*kills surrendered soilders
*doesn't kill Jon for killing his queen
*seems to understand Dany was bad for mass murder
*Still wants the person who ended it to be punished, but exile is sufficient
If Gray Warm was also driven to commit atrocities due to greif over his "GF", how on earth does Dany getting killed make him more reasonable
Sansa making this list, followed by a list of things that ruined her is great. Yeah, they basically ruined her.
I still wish we got the drunken old naughty Santa version of Tormund from the books. If they were gonna do comic relief with him, they should have just gone all the way instead of making him 35 and hot. It was so weird watching everyone ship him with *Brienne* of all people... who they also made 35 and hot instead of 17 and awkward lol
I was so happy to see Sandor as number 1, his character and his development was so under appreciated. Even his ending, facing and perishing from his 2 greatest fears, fire and his evil brother.
I would put Melisandre too, i mean yes, she became fire control, but overall i think her arc of azor ahai was good, of course it would be better if it was jon but it is definetely not Melisandre's fault that arya became azor ahai at the end. And her death scene for me was priceless.
2:10 - that setup and reveal of that Sansa image had me in stitches 🤣
Trying to find characters that aren't ruined makes me see how much better the earlier seasons were. But honesty, the only character who felt like themselves the whole show was the Hound.
“Keep in mind it’s hard to find 10 good characters that weren’t ruined. So the first half of this list has characters that were still ruined.”
*Proceeds to talk about D&D ruining Sansa*
Huh?
Not as runied
I actually hard disagree about Sansa, their writing sort of makes Sansa a half jealous villain. Like my understanding of her not telling Jon about the knights is that it was a 100% power play, Jon either dies or loses a ton of HIS supporters, and then winter fell is held by HER supporters even if he is alive. But that never goes anywhere, it’s like David and Dan didn’t even see that angle of villainy. They also act like a ton of super intelligent characters would never notice or comment on it either. Like she 100% tries to undercut Jon, and then is just like, “actually you can be king of the north my bastard brother I love you.” And Jon who is intelligent enough to 100% know she tried to off him goes, “we wouldn’t have won without you sister, I love you.” It’s bizarre.
This gets overlooked by far too many people.
I almost spat out my water when you opened with Sansa Stark! She was one of the most ruined, especially her line in S8E4 "If it wasn't for Littlefinger, Joffrey & Ramsay I would have stayed a little bird all my life". I would have put Berric Dondaerian there but good list otherwise.
Without them she would stay a little and naive girl. Wdym? She understands these people made her strong. Isn't that true?
@@annett5 She was a sheltered and spoiled little girl, one that is smarter than the show gives her credit for, in time she'd grow up and learn better as most people do. You don't need such suffering to learn and grow, failure and consequences yes but suffering no. Ramsay did literally nothing that made her stronger. What political skills did she learn that she did not already have? What skills did she learn to rule the North? It was just a repeat of her time at the Red Keep, with not even a tenth of the hard lessons and a thousand times the pain.
@@annett5it's extremely weird that Sansa had to be broken to become a stronger person, especially considering that msot of the abuse she suffered was extremely sexual in nature.
Joffrey decided to abuse her mentally, Little Finge clearly had sexual intentions and Ramsey straight up sexually assaulted her.
There are many ways to grow strong, but no rape survivor with self respect would mention their abuser as someone who "helped" them in any way
@@jazzishuman she didn't say they "helped" her. They were just a part of her way, people who taught her lessons even if this experience was bad and hard
And why are you telling me that? D&d wrote the show sansa and George Martin is responsible for her book arc
@@annett5 because you specifically used the words "made her strong" which implicates help in some way.
Some people might use "made me strong" in the face of bad things happening to them, but it was weird that that was the choice that D&D made.
Also, I was just responding to your comment? You were raising some questions and I felt like I could answer?
I want to remove Tormund from the list but I don't know who to replace him with. Tormund was an in-name only character who was so much better in the books that what the show did, making him a simp, was a real slap in the face. Tormund had children, was possibly even the father to some Moermonts, and took command after Mance was captured. Despite it all, even losing his sons in the aftermath, he simply refused to be bitter and helped Jon Snow save his people, even likely encouraging some to join the Watch since he knew what was coming. But no. We got a Brienne simp who went along with the suicide mission to capture a wight.
Well in show he didnt have kids, he was the funniest character
Great bud, I enjoyed it 👍👍
About time you gave some positive vibes!
Yoooo. New upload let’s goooo and it’s a good one.
In the books I assume Brenne of Tarth will kill lady stone hart mirroring Jamie killing the mad king and breaking her oath and in the show she kinda does nothing
Your top 4 is exactly right...they are characters whose endings moved me to tears and made sense for everything we'd seen them go through and overcome...I still can't believe how bad the ending was for rhe majority of characters 💔
What you said about Grey Worm got me thinking… whatever happened to trials by combat??? I guess Jon would never have claimed his innocence anyways so he would have just been executed, but I guess my point is the writers just started abandoning things that were integral to Westeros like trials.
Tommen cancelled trial by combat, you kinda forgot.
@@WWESVRGAMER I was about to comment that everything Tommen decreed went out the window, but then realized my poor choice of words. Still, those left at the end were not obligated to follow that rule, even though they did fall back on some other traditions.
@@melissablackwood Could of said, "Everything Tommen decreed went out the window when he did" 😔
Been thinking of how to make Grey Worm's character better; specifically, to get from POINT A (Jon confessed to killing Dany and was imprisoned, all of Westeros wants Bran as king and Bran wants to sentence Jon to the Wall. um, bear with me and just pretend that all the logic and plot points getting there actually work) to POINT B (Grey Worm accepts Bran as king, agrees to Jon's sentence and decides to go to Naath either to mourn Missandei, or join her in death, or protect the island from pirates in her memory.) It could've been - should've been - a big character moment for Grey Worm to get from A to B, one of the most defining moments of the whole show, and yet it all happens off-screen...
Suppose they'd established a dothraki character or an Unsullied lieutenant as an actual character with a few lines of dialogue and personality... suppose Grey Worm and the other dude are alone together, and Grey Worm just pours his heart out:
He loved Missandei, wanted to go to Naath with her, blah blah blah... it broke his heart to see her die, and it felt right and just to execute the Lannister guards. After all, any one of them could've been the dudes who stood beside Cersei and did nothing as she had Gregor kill Missandei. But he went to bed that night and tried to sleep, and it didn't feel just to kill the guards, and his grief was so fresh and raw that he couldn't sleep, and Missandei's memory couldn't sleep either. He wonders if the reason he hates the Lannister guards so much is because their actions hit a bit too close to home because he used to be just like them: he stood by as innocent people were murdered, and even committed atrocities, all because his master told him, all before he met Dany. And that makes him hate Jon for killing Dany, and he soooo badly wants to execute him, but he knows it'll be just like the Lannister guards, where it will briefly feel so just and awesome, then he'll go back to feeling empty and miserable. (Maybe imply that he's starting to think Dany isn't as different from his former masters as he'd like the believe, and if she's no saint, then Jon isn't a devil for killing her. But this reasoning should be secondary, because the episode is already screaming about how evil Dany is, we don't really need Grey Worm to bring it up for the audience to get the memo.) He doesn't like Westeros; its just a graveyard of all the people he loved: Dany, Missandei, all the Unsullied who died at Winterfell. Grey Worm just wants peace of mind, and to be able to sleep, and mourns how neither Dany nor Missandei were able to find that inner peace. He wants to dream of the paradise beyond the sea...
...its not great, but it would've given real impact to the choice he makes - the last major choice anyone in the show makes - and could've made for some nice "choosing peace and ending the cycle of violence" themes. I guess D&D didn't do something like this because a) they didn't really want to write too many monologues cuz its hard and b) they didn't really want to spend this much time with the less important characters, when they could have Tyrion stare glumly at nothingness instead?
You forget that Davos dies at the beginning of season 6 and is replaced by Dave
Brienne... so what the show did with her is an arc, and I guess it works somewhat well (at least compared to some of the dreadfully handled characters around Brienne.) Its just that her arc is thematically the exact opposite of where her arc seems to be going in the books in a lot of ways. If you just watched the show, you would be forgiven for thinking that Brienne fulfilling her oath is awesome. The book is just the opposite: Brienne and Jaime's stories are about how its morally bankrupt to do what someone tells you to just because you promised to obey them: you have to think for yourself and figure out what's the right thing to do. Brienne's book journey intentionally reads very boringly, so I don't envy the job of adapting it in a way that keeps the viewer engaged, but... I really wish they'd kept to the book themes and done Stoneheart, rather than fall back on the fantasy tropes of "you're a great knight! You fulfill oaths!" Perhaps if D&E is ever adapted, we'll see those themes make it in there?
the hound is the best in Game of thrones. that last conversation with Arya holds so much in terms of showing Arya what he is and has realised to differentiate what Arya shouldn't be in the future
I think the books are hinting that The Hound hates The Mountain so much because he killed his father and sister, not because he burned him. The show glossed over this amazing payoff. The 'Clegane Bowl' would have had so much more payoff if The Hound screamed "YOU KILLED MY FATHER AND SISTER" before they fought.
Disagree with most of these.
Grey Worm was a simple character yet he was still completely ruined, the very point of the Unsullied is that they are emotionless killers, yet somehow Grey Worm is the most emotional character in season 8. It's like they completely forgot the very core of his character.
Davos shines in the early seasons because he functions as Stannis' conscience, disobeying orders when Stannis does something reprehensible to do the right thing. That completely fell flat by pairing him up with Jon, who effectively never made any morally grey decisions because D&D lacked the skill to write him like that. So Davos became useless.
Sansa became a wooden plank, brought to the North because the fans wanted her to become queen in the north, but everything about her felt artificial.
Brienne was ruined. She follows a quite different path in the show (clearly the simplistic girl power arc of the show is vastly different from the dark, tragic story in the books), but to have her decide to kill Stannis over saving Sansa, only to completely undo that decision the next episode where she ALSO saves Sansa, is exceptionally bad writing. The fact that she never felt any repercussions for her selfish decision there was made worse by her general smugness as a character.
Sandor was ruined, he was more or less a tragic character, someone who could have been a good man who got twisted into a monster by trauma, who then perhaps found a way out by joining the faith. In the show, he just ends where he started and every moment of character development he had was ultimately undone.
Well tbh, I never really liked Tormund. This guy slaughtered innocent villages and people like Jon and Davos just look the other way. Its never even brought up.
All of these videos really wants me to see your rewrite of the last 4 seasons of GoT.
Brienne in the books is Sansa with muscles. She is a kind, romantic girl who is a woman and likes other women and cares about women being treated well. She is gentle, despite her martial prowess, who kills her first man well into her search for Sansa at Jaime's behest, and is pained by it. By the time she is on that quest, Renly is a non-factor in her motivations, and we discover that she developed her crush on him, because he performed the basic courtesies toward her, when he was visiting his father, a powerful vassal of the Lord of Storm's End. So many people were actively rude or hostile to her for her looks or knightly aspirations that Renly's ordinary courtesy seemed remarkable. Meanwhile behind her back, he mocked her to Loras, and when Jaime forces Loras to really examine the question of Brienne's honor and fidelity, it causes Loras to realize that maybe his boyfriend didn't deserve her love. Despite the hopelessness of her quest (because we, the readers, know that Catelyn's daughters are out of her reach), Brienne persists, for Jaime's sake and for Catelyn's. When she encounters a group of bandits approaching an orphanage, she thinks she has no chance against seven men, but steps out to fight them anyway, because she believes she has no choice with so many children in danger.
On the show, she is a snotty, obnoxious thug, who is quick to turn to a sword to solve her problems, who violently attacks the protectors Sansa & Arya prefer to this random woman who shows up claiming she was their mother's friend, despite the fact that Sansa SAW her with the Lannisters in Kings Landing, where she spent several episodes, making no effort to rescue Sansa. She is rude and dismissive to Pod, she calls Jaime a woman to shame him when he loses his hand (in the books it was craven), and when she is supposed to be waiting for a signal to rescue Sansa, she abandons her post to find and murder a wounded Stannis "in the name of the 'rightful' king Renly", leaving Sansa's call for help to go unheeded. Then she is sent on a trip to Riverlands to keep her out of the way, where she is basically useless. She lets Jaime use her and leave her for Cersei, while she misses the climactic fight in Kingslanding, because she was last seen crying in her bathrobe after the guy who dumped her for his incestuous relationship with the top villain remaining in Westeros. As the final insult, she gives him a glow-up in his official Kingsguard biography (in the books, they had the reverse, of Jaime immortalizing her in the White Book, by crediting her with safely returning him to Kingslanding).
Just because they didn't make Brienne do a heel turn, or suddenly become incompetent to service the plot, does not mean they did her character right, in the late OR early seasons.
Sansa and Greyworm on that list ... i wouldn't have put them on there. Rather maybe Beric Dondarrion.
Who just popped onto my mind us Melisandre, her dying because she gave all her power to fight the dead army
double week upload lets goo
I wish I could agree with brienne’s placement, but the fact that DND make her cry and weep for Jaime destroys a lot of it for me. When he goes to leave, she should’ve remained stalwart, and cursed him and punched him, giving him what he deserved, instead of just leaving her out in the cold as Jaime rides off. That’s not who Brienne is. She’s done taking shit from people.
That wouldn't make much sense. Being in love and being hurt by that person doesn't make you weak, it's part of character growth, because her relationship with Jaime is completely different than with Renly. Renly was completely platonic and never showed even the slightest interest in her, whereas Jaime did.
It's not like Brienne is portrayed as this stupid little girl who fell in love over nothing, she had reason to believe Jaime had feelings for her, even the actor and director said it themselves, and then they just made him go back to Cersei in the stupidest way possible
I think Davos as a character was ruined
I completely disagree with you about the scene of Tormund chugging the giants milk. For me that was one of the most hilarious scenes in the whole show
It was the funniest ever
I think Grey Worm should’ve skewered Tyrion like a kebab for Drogon to slow roast. I was so disappointed that he didn’t. He was The Queen’s Justice in my eyes.
Im about to rewatch those olenna advisor scenes to danny now cuz of you lol
I'm actually so happy after watching game of thrones because the show was good but ihated tgat he was cancelled in seaon 5 because as they said they didn't have better ideas and didn't wanna ruin the show even that everyone is angery about that for some reason i'am happy imagine a sad grim dark universe where the show had a bad ending
I hated the fact that The Hound died at the end. There was no way he was going to be able to defeat The Mountain once the Mountain became pretty much a zombie. A better revenge would be for Drogon to fry the Mountain and then having The Hound inherit all of his brother's lands and property. Gregor disfigured his brother for playing with his toy so it seems to me the Hound winding up with everything of Gregor's would have been a much better ending. They went through a lot of things to redeem Sandor only to have him die in a way that shows none of this,
yessir i love your got content.
I firmly disagree with Sansa, Sandor, Brienne, and Davos not being ruined.
I think this list is missing Melissandre, I loved her character in the final seasons, and I really felt bad for her,
She was able to redeem herself IMO, and her death really hit hard to me
I feel like the world forgot that Sam was never TRULY freed from his oath to the Night's Watch, so him just leaving the citadel with Gilly when he was sent there to become a Maester for the watch is just baffling. Also after the threat of the Night King being eliminated, he should have gone right back to the wall, instead of fathering a bastard with Gilly.
The wall is breached, the White Walkers don't exist any more and the Wildlings have become allies though, so does it make sense to even have a Night's Watch in the future?
@@jonweman6128 you could argue that but if the watch does remain, like in the show, then why wouldn’t his duties as well?
@@Cthulhu_Himself This never, not once, gets talked about in the show. I kept a foam brick on the couch next to me, so I had something to throw at my tv when something was stupid. I used it a lot.
I would only accept Sandor's arc except at the end, before they go into the Red Keep, he knocks out Arya and puts her away somewhere safe. He tells her the same thing: I am a miserable bastard, don't become like me.
I would have preferred if they had explained the Mountain more and what kind of zombie he was. It would have also been more satisfying if Sandor had to overcome his fear of fire and would have killed the Mountain with fire, to which he was vulnerable. This would have brought their story around full circle, as it was the Mountain who disfigured Sandor as a child. Then have Sandor either die from his wounds or have him survive and live in peace somewhere (Quiet Isle?) because his vengeance is done.
I also would have preferred if Arya sustained some sort of wound or injury from the Night King's touch so that she could no longer fight, kind of like with Frodo and the WItch King's dagger. She would have been forced to remain behind and contemplate a life without violence. This would naturally lead to her desire to explore: it's danger, but not violence.
One of the biggest fails they made had to do with Theon's death. How it could/should have gone:
Theon sees the Night King and starts to step forward when Bran grabs his arm. Theon's eyes turn white for a second before he looks at Bran.
Theon- I know but I made a promise.
Bran- You are a good man Theon Greyjoy.
A single tear forms before falling from Theon's face and turning to ice in the freezing cold. He raises his sword and charges the Night King only to stop halfway. The camera pans to perfect hole through his chest looking at the tree where an ice javelin has been impaled just above Bran's shoulder. There is silence as Theon falls over into the snow. The Night King makes a slight smile as the crowd of undead begins to part. The camera drops to ground level as a pair of large feet plod forward. Out of the crowd of wights a large figure stomps out, Hodor. His eyes vacant, body still covered in scratches he stops next to his new master. The Night King hands his massive sword to giant and points at Bran. Clutching the weapon he stomps forward.
As a major Theon fan (as in: he is my fav character of all time. I wrote a book on him and have 3 tats for him) i was heartbroken at how his character was handled. Then again, they got it wrong very early on. They forwent the entire identity arc that was the biggest aspect of his character in the books, in favor of a terrible redemption arc. Everything was about how he owed something to the starks (when he was their prisoner, so imo he didn't owe them anything) he went through hell and back to find himself and learn to live with his demons. Only to then die. And not just die, but sacrifice himself for the Starks. That's such disrespect to his character.
Honestly Sansa feels kinda undeserving of the queen of the north however it makes sense because of the Starks because were supposed to rule the north ao even if Is not likeable it makes sense
olena's death is such a good scene i'm now genuinely surprised it happened on season 7, even tho i've read the books and watched the complete show two times.
I feel like HOTD gets a pass for being mid because GoT fans just want more content.
I won't say Samwell Tarly was full-on ruined, but his character's significance seemed to fade in the later seasons. I'll chalk that up to the overall destruction of Jon Snow's character. There could have been some really interesting conversations between Sam and Jon about Jon's feelings towards Dany, considering Sam found love with Gilly, a wildling.
The hound is my favorite character in the show. He started growing on me in season 4, but on my first watch it was the scene where he buried the man and his daughter's skeletons while having so much remorse for his actions that made me say he was my favorite character. He never had a single dull scene, his dynamic with other characters was always entertaining (especially with Arya) while also being hilarious in the best way possible. He basically went from a character no one gave a second glance, to a character no one could look away from. Of all of the disaster season 8 was, the one thing I can walk away with happily saying is that Sandor was never ruined. I love this show with my whole heart even with its flaws, but even within the most flawed parts of the show have some of the greatest moments.
My top 10 of Characters by David and Dan in the last few seasons would include some of the ones mentioned above such as Sandor Clegane, Brienne, Theon, Sir Davos, Olenna, Jorah, Sam and Sansa. But I actually like what was done with Bronn and Brandon Stark too and would perhaps put then in top 10 instead of Tormund and Greyworm who for me did not improve toward the end.
Grey Worm’s rage filled grief stricken face will never not break my heart
They really missed an opportunity with Jon by having Sam pull the "cutaway to salvation" bit. Jon making the choice to abandon him to complete the mission should have been a big deal.
They didn't ruin Tyrion at all.
They completely replaced him with someone else.......
I think they forgot about Tormund’s daughters.
...... How did Bronn not be number one? Everything he did in the series fit for his character and every scene he has a line in he completely knocks it out of the park. Take Sansa off the list and bump everyone down one spot and make room for the master of coin, lord of Highgarden and the true number 1: Bronn
What’s the background music in 8:16?
I agree with your top 4 except for Brienne funnily enough!
Don't get me wrong I very much do like the ending Brienne got and knighting her, the lovestory with Jaime and all that is perfect! HOWEVER for exactly that reason I am of the opinion that it is absolutely HORRENDOUS that she doesn't die in the battle against the White Walkers! Both for herself and also for the character development that would have been needed for Jaime! It would have been a perfectly, rounded up bitter-sweet ending that George R.R. Martin always talks of. Finding her love, finally getting what she has always yearned for but dying shortly after would be the EMBODIMENT of bitter-sweet and I feel like is such an obviously missed great ending for a wonderful character. That's the only yet very substantial reason why I think her character arcs ends really badly unfortunately!
If they'd ruined Tormund, I'd have to hurt someone. Tormund is my love. ❤
How could sam become grand maester? He has a wife and kid
And he didn't have a chain since he wasn't there long enough. The citadel, not the crown, appoints the grand maester. It's a bit like being elected pope.
Nepotism.
I'm comfortable with most of this list but I disagree with the inclusion of Sansa. I wrote a whole article about how she's the keystone to Martin's gothic fantasy, reporting, rather than perpetuating, medievalist brutality. Her throwing Ramsay to the dogs was the point I realised D&D didn't understand what they were writing.
its unfortunate what they did in the last season to some of the characters but its still one of my favorite tv shows. now we wait for the next books to see if grrm redeems the characters.
I hate that they turned Tormund into a joke. He didn’t need to be comic relief… Especially since he was very rarely funny. Someone named “Tormund Giantsbane” shouldn’t be a retarded slapstick punchline.
Some fun could have been made about him not knowing southern customs, but he was a hot badass at first and I really don’t like what his character became.
Sandor colegane was one of my favorite characters in the whole show but I hated the end of his story. I felt like the final fight against his brother was super forced, it didn’t feel organic in any way. It was like the show writers were just tying lose end for the sake of it not for the story over all
The video title should be 5 characters that were barely not ruined by David and Dan.
Brienne abandoned her oath to save Sansa for the sake of revenge and never once thought about that decision. She was unquestionably ruined.
As I huge Jorah fan I was really happy in a bittersweet way with how his story ended. I think there might've been more payoff had he taken Missandei's (I'm not going to attempt to correct my spelling there) death instead, but to see him die defending the woman he loved made sense for his character. Would've made the mad queen arc make a bit more sense too if Jorah was the one who was executed on Cersei's order.
I knew from the start that the Hound was gonna be in the top spot - he was also my favourite character throughout the entire show, and I'm glad they did his arc justice. I agree that the final showdown between him and the Mountain was pretty fanservicey, but to be honest I'd also have to say some of his scathing one-liners were a little over-the-top - I know that's what he's known for, but I feel like D&D relied on that a little TOO much because they knew it was always going to be a crowd pleaser. I also have to say something about that scene when they went North of the Wall to capture the wight - they had the Hound chucking rocks across the frozen lake which made the wights realise they could walk on the ice. I know Sandor isn't known for his brains, but that feels a bit TOO stupid even for him. He didn't live (and prosper) as long as he did in the King's Guard with dumbass childish behaviour like that.
On my last re-watch I was surprised to realize Sandor had become my favorite character. And I’m sorry, call me a fanboy but “the big woman still here???” Is one of the funniest lines in the whole show.
Tormund became dumb and his obsession with Brienne was so cringe
It's a great insult to me to know that Bronn is not on this list, he is literally the most honest character in the series, he does not hide his principles and goals, from the beginning to the end of the series he he never hid who he is, that's why I love this character, not to mention that he remained the same until the end.
Probably cause him becoming lord of highgarden was one of the most insufferable decisions ever but I guess that doesn't rlly have much to do with him as a character
I personally disagree with your placement of Sandor simply because his role in the story was over by season 4, he died and should've stayed dead but they brought him back only for fan service. Moreover the cleganebowl is on my list of the stupidest moments in the whole series