A most enjoyable video! Holmes wrote a book, ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’ soon after his edition of D&D in which he further explains what RPGs are and how to play them. He also presages the anti-D&D movement/Satanic Panic of the 1980s, providing one of the earliest defences of the hobby.
Holmes was my first edition (and I even still have box, but I think I lost the chits), and while I quickly went to AD&D, it'll always be one of my fondest...
Holmes set was my first D&D book way back in junior high. My gaming circle moved to AD&D fairly quickly. Years later, as an experiment (and well before the inflated collector's pricing), my new group played through every edition available, 2E being the most recent. I cannot imagine as a junior high student outside of the Lake Geneva & Twin Cities wargame circles playing the original rules without substantial difficulty. I specifically, and the hobby in general, owe a great deal to Dr. Holmes and his edition of the game.
Thanks for the video! I moved from (O)D&D to 1E AD&D as the 1E AD&D books were released but sometimes have played the various Basic versions when folks who were running them didn't mind me not having the exact rules. I've sat in here and there and let the DM tell me when I needed to know something that was slightly different. The groups I was part of for (O)D&D and later were mainly also wargamers or even wargamers first, sometime before D&D was even first published, like myself. I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess. High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia. I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine. Holmes seemed to want to keep the Ability Scores fairly simple but still increase PCs' survivability and buff MUs. Resources were an important part of all early D&D and, IMO, is in any Old School RPG emulation. Alignment and encumbrance kinda got fine tuned for 1E AD&D. Initiative has always been an awkward aspect to D&D that the social contract seems to handle, in that once it is explained, players and DMs accept it and use it, no matter the edition. It works out well enough, as long as everyone is on the same page, and every edition offers ways to nerf it and to wheedle against it for advantage. It's kinda funny that way. Damage differences were a revelation and I am not sure if they first were adjusted to use all the dice more often or they wanted things more realistic and someone realized that since they had all these dice, this would be a place to get use out of them. Magic is in constant revision even during editions, it seems, and probably is often written vaguely enough that from table to table it feels different. I always loved sample dungeons and wandering monster tables! I'm also a fan of some nominal experience for the monsters and also experience for treasure (which can be great!). If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving! Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you? Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk). Thanks again for the content!
I always appreciate getting comments from you! Thank you so much! *I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess.* To be fair, I've always approached it as someone who learned via a later edition (Moldvay) but looking back, I find a lot of vagueness and inconsistencies and things that aren't defined that I marvel at how folks figured it out. But then again, I learned how to play Moldvay which, while I think being a better version of teaching you to play, is also a game that folks would look at today and say that it doesn't explain everything! **High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia.* I do very much agree with this. While I poke fun from time-to-time when re-reading, at the time, I found it charming or at least comforting. It made me feel that I was special, being able to read and understand it, and it certainly improved my vocabulary! *I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine.* Thanks! *If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving!* I really appreciate that! Thank you so much! *Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you?* I'll dig up some of my pics on FB and send to you. One belonged to my parents and I definitely remember it being in the house although they almost never used it. They were going to get rid of it a few decades ago and I asked if I could have it. A few years later, another friend gave me a vintage one that is almost identical, as he didn't know I already had one! *Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk).* Yuck! But... I mean, it can't be worse than Malört! Thanks again for your comments!
I still, in many ways, prefer the Holmes edition to all others. Especially for new or young players. When this hit the streets there was a perfect union of timing with the, then, recent release of the first The Hobbit 1978 movie by Bass/Rankin. That movie evoke a feeling very much in line with what Dr. Holmes was trying to create with his version.
cool graphic comparison. I think another thing that makes the Holmes version (and later ones) easier to read is the shorter line length. 2 columns in 8.5" yields shorter line lenghts than 1 column on 5.5". Generally you're more likely to use your place with longer line lengths.
Don't forget the UCSD group. They also published some of their stuff in 3pp supplements (even before the feist books). Having started in 90/91 myself, with 2e (and still playing it now), and almost immediately jumping into Dark Sun when it came out, I can assure you that, RAW, 2e is all in on encumbrance and other forms of resource management. How much of that is applied at the table of course depends on the group, the DM, and what of 2e's virtually endless variety of supplemental/alternative systems are being used.
The best thing about Holmes was the introductory dungeon in the back. Honestly a much better intro to the game than B2, which I got in the box with it.
Ha! I am glad to see this video. I just started watching and just have to say that this is the box set i first bought. I came into a bookstore and the owner was opening his stock of books, i was looking for the Hobbit. He showed me the newest D&D game Holmes , I could see on display the white box game and chainmail book. Well I tell you i had soo much fun with the basic set. You could just start playing so quickly. Really enjoyed it better than Advanced because of the playability. Well back to your video 👋🏻
My idea for Magic Missile is to make it work like Yondu's arrow. You enchant it to be a +1 magic arrow (or maybe the bonus scales with level) for one minute. In that time, the Magic-User can function as a decent archer with their magic arrow that they can move and recall psychically.
Fun Fact: while originally requiring an attack roll to hit the target in the initial release of 4th edition (and dealing dice damage to the target), Magic Missile was updated and errata'd with the release of the Essentials product line to no longer requiring an attack roll and dealing flat damage to the target instead.
John Holmes wrote "Mahars of Pellucidar" which eas my favorite book as a kid (it gave me genuine nightmares, but I loved it). I ran a Blue Book D&D open invite hex crawl game set in Pellucidar on his birthday for a few years to celibrate all Mr Holmes did to shape my nerdom. Its been a while since I ran it, but it was a great tradition while it lasted. I really should revive it, or compile the notes somewhere.
I used to listen to the public radio show "Jazz After Hours" back in the mid '80s and its odd you mentioned that line-up. Like a blast from the past foso... I'll have to give this 1e GW giveaway a shot because thats a heavy duty blast from the past there. I wonder if its as beat up as I am? Great Holmes coverage my man, thanks!
I started with Holmes and moved on to AD&D as it came out. Couldnt afford the original D&D books before that, or drive myself the 150 miles to the store that had them.
Interesting. We went straight from original D&D to AD&D. I'm familiar with later "basic" D&D (B/X, BECMI, Rules Cyclopedia) but not Holmes. Thanks for the overview.
You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I will be digging into the differences in Moldvay, Mentzer, etc. While I started with Moldvay in late 1981, we quickly discovered AD&D was a thing and we played both simultaneously without realizing there was a difference. We were too excited to play to actually read the AD&D rules to notice how different they were!
bonus comment: Cheers 🥂 on the passing of Roy Haynes. Sitting in with the angels now. I was gonna bust your shoes for talking parsley, sage,rosemary, and thyme without playing Simon & Garfunkel, but a passing jazzman gets you a pass.
Ha! I feel like I've delved a little too deep into Paul Simon (I've already covered two of his albums) but that's would've been funny. But, as you noted, I think a tribute was due to Roy Haynes. Cheers, and thank you so much for sticking through the bonus content and then commenting on it.
By the lizards front claw there appears to be letters, though it’s just as likely to be shading. I’m seeing letters possibly, W. LINIL Or my eyes are squinting too much 😂
I started playing in 1980 and think of White Box as a prototype rather than a finished product and Holmes as a beta. AD&D and Moldvay were the first truly finished, fully playable products that didn't require extensive game experience or reference to other publications. In some ways we've come full circle with the release of ShadowDark which also requires extensive RPG experience and reference to other publications (e.g. nowhere in ShadowDark does it explain how Hit Points are calculated and it lacks any useful description of monster behavior or environments. It assumes you've been playing D&D 5e for years).
The Holmes Basic wasn't initially envisioned as a seperate system. It was more like how many games these days have a "Starter Set" (Big Example, Call of Cthulhu) where you get a set of basic game system rules, and stripped down character options to lead into a more complete "Full Version" to allow people who hadn't come through the wargame/OD&D pathway, to move on to the AD&D system. The Starter Rules are completelyplayable, but you ultiamtely reach a point where you wantmore...so you buy the full version. That was the route I and a lot of people I knew at the time took to reach into AD&D. There was no pathway past 3rd level, so once we had a grip on Basic, we just looked at Advanced. The Monster Manual was easy to convert to (Basic) D&D as the format was the same, ie AC, HD, Attacks/Damage and so on, and simply had expanded rules for alignment, certain magic, powers and Psionics. So it was easy to use it to become familiar with some of the expanded rules that would come in AD&D. It took a bunch of 11 year olds all of about 5 minutes to figure out how the 9-way alignment differed from the 3-way, and in the 40+ years since, no one has ever convinced me that our way was "wrong". I rarely played Moldvay, because it had the same problem as Holmes... it just stopped at higher level. It was only years later when Frank wrote the Companion rules that we dipped back in to play a "BEC" campaign, Never really got as far as Master rules, and had no real interest in the Immortals stuff, but having since read it all... it;s pretty good at creating a well structured progression path from 1st Level to Godhood,(if that's your thing...) and I still consider it the best written, most complete, bottom-to-top, level-based rpg system, where no period of progression is overlooked or broken.
Just dug out my old Holmes book and noticed that it HAS the 9-way grid, which is probably why we found AD&D easier... So that obviously changed when they wanted to make the Basic game its own line, and dropped the complexity of alignment. Weird how, over the years, I'd forgotten that we already used 9 way, and had convinced myself that all Basic had the 3 way...
Will you show how BECMI and Mentzer are different from both ODD and ADD, as I only realized in the last year that they were different. I started playing in '81 I think and I never new they were different.
I intend to cover both Moldvay and Mentzer and discuss how they are different from each other as well as from both OD&D and from AD&D. It will make the series a little complicated but I think it's worth covering. Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
It is indeed, and in pretty much every other edition of the game other than 4th, as I mentioned in the video. I started with B/X and was used to Magic Missile being an automatic hit. Thanks for watching and commenting.
I think if it went up to 5 levels it would feel a little more worth it. 3 is almost pointless. The 90s "New Easy to Master" and "Classic Dungeon & Dragons Game" went to 5 levels.
@yourdagan, Holmes opined that if your intention was to play AD&D that you would be better off not playing his edition. He said so in his 1981 book ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’. So the answer to your question is that, in a way, Holmes himself thought so.
![เจ็บที่ยังฮัก - ม่อน วรวิทย์ [ Official Mv ] จอนนี่มิวสิค](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KALIGSRSjFs/mqdefault.jpg)
80+ minutes on Holmes vs Original D&D! Let's Goooo!
(I'll be back with the bonus content.)
A most enjoyable video!
Holmes wrote a book, ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’ soon after his edition of D&D in which he further explains what RPGs are and how to play them. He also presages the anti-D&D movement/Satanic Panic of the 1980s, providing one of the earliest defences of the hobby.
Holmes was my first edition (and I even still have box, but I think I lost the chits), and while I quickly went to AD&D, it'll always be one of my fondest...
I have always consider the Blue Book as OD&D. I stand corrected. Thanks for the share!!
Holmes set was my first D&D book way back in junior high. My gaming circle moved to AD&D fairly quickly.
Years later, as an experiment (and well before the inflated collector's pricing), my new group played through every edition available, 2E being the most recent.
I cannot imagine as a junior high student outside of the Lake Geneva & Twin Cities wargame circles playing the original rules without substantial difficulty.
I specifically, and the hobby in general, owe a great deal to Dr. Holmes and his edition of the game.
Please cover more OD&D supplements. It's a relatively untouched section of D&D history.
Thanks for the video! I moved from (O)D&D to 1E AD&D as the 1E AD&D books were released but sometimes have played the various Basic versions when folks who were running them didn't mind me not having the exact rules. I've sat in here and there and let the DM tell me when I needed to know something that was slightly different. The groups I was part of for (O)D&D and later were mainly also wargamers or even wargamers first, sometime before D&D was even first published, like myself. I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess. High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia. I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine. Holmes seemed to want to keep the Ability Scores fairly simple but still increase PCs' survivability and buff MUs. Resources were an important part of all early D&D and, IMO, is in any Old School RPG emulation. Alignment and encumbrance kinda got fine tuned for 1E AD&D. Initiative has always been an awkward aspect to D&D that the social contract seems to handle, in that once it is explained, players and DMs accept it and use it, no matter the edition. It works out well enough, as long as everyone is on the same page, and every edition offers ways to nerf it and to wheedle against it for advantage. It's kinda funny that way. Damage differences were a revelation and I am not sure if they first were adjusted to use all the dice more often or they wanted things more realistic and someone realized that since they had all these dice, this would be a place to get use out of them. Magic is in constant revision even during editions, it seems, and probably is often written vaguely enough that from table to table it feels different. I always loved sample dungeons and wandering monster tables! I'm also a fan of some nominal experience for the monsters and also experience for treasure (which can be great!). If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving! Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you? Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk). Thanks again for the content!
I always appreciate getting comments from you! Thank you so much!
*I hear some folks say it was difficult to understand (O)D&D if they hadn't played wargames but we seemed to pick it up well enough, I guess.*
To be fair, I've always approached it as someone who learned via a later edition (Moldvay) but looking back, I find a lot of vagueness and inconsistencies and things that aren't defined that I marvel at how folks figured it out. But then again, I learned how to play Moldvay which, while I think being a better version of teaching you to play, is also a game that folks would look at today and say that it doesn't explain everything!
**High Gygaxian has a charm all its own which I suppose I encountered when I was so young, it was seen more as a challenge than a barrier. Now it feels archaic in the best possible way, chock full of nostalgia.*
I do very much agree with this. While I poke fun from time-to-time when re-reading, at the time, I found it charming or at least comforting. It made me feel that I was special, being able to read and understand it, and it certainly improved my vocabulary!
*I always assumed Zenopus was derived from "Xenopus" which breaks down to "strange + foot" which I have heard pronounced as both "zee' · nuh · pus" and "zen' · nuh · pus" so you're probably fine.*
Thanks!
*If you don't have a video next week, have a Happy Thanksgiving!*
I really appreciate that! Thank you so much!
*Of course, you have a traveling bar case. Why wouldn't you?*
I'll dig up some of my pics on FB and send to you. One belonged to my parents and I definitely remember it being in the house although they almost never used it. They were going to get rid of it a few decades ago and I asked if I could have it. A few years later, another friend gave me a vintage one that is almost identical, as he didn't know I already had one!
*Perhaps someday you can find a liquor to mix with cranchovie juice (jk).*
Yuck! But... I mean, it can't be worse than Malört!
Thanks again for your comments!
I still, in many ways, prefer the Holmes edition to all others. Especially for new or young players. When this hit the streets there was a perfect union of timing with the, then, recent release of the first The Hobbit 1978 movie by Bass/Rankin. That movie evoke a feeling very much in line with what Dr. Holmes was trying to create with his version.
cool graphic comparison. I think another thing that makes the Holmes version (and later ones) easier to read is the shorter line length. 2 columns in 8.5" yields shorter line lenghts than 1 column on 5.5".
Generally you're more likely to use your place with longer line lengths.
Don't forget the UCSD group. They also published some of their stuff in 3pp supplements (even before the feist books).
Having started in 90/91 myself, with 2e (and still playing it now), and almost immediately jumping into Dark Sun when it came out, I can assure you that, RAW, 2e is all in on encumbrance and other forms of resource management. How much of that is applied at the table of course depends on the group, the DM, and what of 2e's virtually endless variety of supplemental/alternative systems are being used.
This is going to be such a great and helpful series! Thank you for putting in the work to dig into these!
Thanks!
Thank you so very much for your generous support of the channel! I truly appreciate it!
The best thing about Holmes was the introductory dungeon in the back. Honestly a much better intro to the game than B2, which I got in the box with it.
Great topic, and cast charm algorithm
Thank you for yet another dive into an interesting subject!
I'm so glad you are enjoying it! Thank you very much for watching and commenting. Cheers!
Ha! I am glad to see this video. I just started watching and just have to say that this is the box set i first bought. I came into a bookstore and the owner was opening his stock of books, i was looking for the Hobbit. He showed me the newest D&D game Holmes , I could see on display the white box game and chainmail book. Well I tell you i had soo much fun with the basic set. You could just start playing so quickly. Really enjoyed it better than Advanced because of the playability. Well back to your video 👋🏻
My idea for Magic Missile is to make it work like Yondu's arrow. You enchant it to be a +1 magic arrow (or maybe the bonus scales with level) for one minute. In that time, the Magic-User can function as a decent archer with their magic arrow that they can move and recall psychically.
Awesome
Zeroth is probably pulled from Asimov's laws of robotics. The Zeroth law
Yeah, I absolutely say zeroth. Probably because of Asimov but also… I don’t say ‘one’ edition and I don’t say ‘zero’ edition hehe
Fun Fact: while originally requiring an attack roll to hit the target in the initial release of 4th edition (and dealing dice damage to the target), Magic Missile was updated and errata'd with the release of the Essentials product line to no longer requiring an attack roll and dealing flat damage to the target instead.
When I was young and these were both out, the differences were minor as far as my friends and I were concerned.
That was my first D&D set. We used the blue book to start and transitioned to AD&D.
John Holmes wrote "Mahars of Pellucidar" which eas my favorite book as a kid (it gave me genuine nightmares, but I loved it). I ran a Blue Book D&D open invite hex crawl game set in Pellucidar on his birthday for a few years to celibrate all Mr Holmes did to shape my nerdom. Its been a while since I ran it, but it was a great tradition while it lasted. I really should revive it, or compile the notes somewhere.
I used to listen to the public radio show "Jazz After Hours" back in the mid '80s and its odd you mentioned that line-up. Like a blast from the past foso...
I'll have to give this 1e GW giveaway a shot because thats a heavy duty blast from the past there. I wonder if its as beat up as I am?
Great Holmes coverage my man, thanks!
I started with Holmes and moved on to AD&D as it came out. Couldnt afford the original D&D books before that, or drive myself the 150 miles to the store that had them.
Interesting. We went straight from original D&D to AD&D. I'm familiar with later "basic" D&D (B/X, BECMI, Rules Cyclopedia) but not Holmes. Thanks for the overview.
You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I will be digging into the differences in Moldvay, Mentzer, etc.
While I started with Moldvay in late 1981, we quickly discovered AD&D was a thing and we played both simultaneously without realizing there was a difference. We were too excited to play to actually read the AD&D rules to notice how different they were!
Love the is style of video. Also hoping for one with b/c compared to other editions
bonus comment: Cheers 🥂 on the passing of Roy Haynes. Sitting in with the angels now.
I was gonna bust your shoes for talking parsley, sage,rosemary, and thyme without playing Simon & Garfunkel, but a passing jazzman gets you a pass.
Ha! I feel like I've delved a little too deep into Paul Simon (I've already covered two of his albums) but that's would've been funny. But, as you noted, I think a tribute was due to Roy Haynes.
Cheers, and thank you so much for sticking through the bonus content and then commenting on it.
By the lizards front claw there appears to be letters, though it’s just as likely to be shading.
I’m seeing letters possibly, W. LINIL
Or my eyes are squinting too much 😂
I started playing in 1980 and think of White Box as a prototype rather than a finished product and Holmes as a beta. AD&D and Moldvay were the first truly finished, fully playable products that didn't require extensive game experience or reference to other publications. In some ways we've come full circle with the release of ShadowDark which also requires extensive RPG experience and reference to other publications (e.g. nowhere in ShadowDark does it explain how Hit Points are calculated and it lacks any useful description of monster behavior or environments. It assumes you've been playing D&D 5e for years).
I heard Gygax intentionally used that kind of language to help improve the reader's skills.
I certainly helped me in junior high and high school (in terms of language!).
The Holmes Basic wasn't initially envisioned as a seperate system. It was more like how many games these days have a "Starter Set" (Big Example, Call of Cthulhu) where you get a set of basic game system rules, and stripped down character options to lead into a more complete "Full Version" to allow people who hadn't come through the wargame/OD&D pathway, to move on to the AD&D system. The Starter Rules are completelyplayable, but you ultiamtely reach a point where you wantmore...so you buy the full version.
That was the route I and a lot of people I knew at the time took to reach into AD&D. There was no pathway past 3rd level, so once we had a grip on Basic, we just looked at Advanced. The Monster Manual was easy to convert to (Basic) D&D as the format was the same, ie AC, HD, Attacks/Damage and so on, and simply had expanded rules for alignment, certain magic, powers and Psionics. So it was easy to use it to become familiar with some of the expanded rules that would come in AD&D. It took a bunch of 11 year olds all of about 5 minutes to figure out how the 9-way alignment differed from the 3-way, and in the 40+ years since, no one has ever convinced me that our way was "wrong".
I rarely played Moldvay, because it had the same problem as Holmes... it just stopped at higher level. It was only years later when Frank wrote the Companion rules that we dipped back in to play a "BEC" campaign, Never really got as far as Master rules, and had no real interest in the Immortals stuff, but having since read it all... it;s pretty good at creating a well structured progression path from 1st Level to Godhood,(if that's your thing...) and I still consider it the best written, most complete, bottom-to-top, level-based rpg system, where no period of progression is overlooked or broken.
Just dug out my old Holmes book and noticed that it HAS the 9-way grid, which is probably why we found AD&D easier... So that obviously changed when they wanted to make the Basic game its own line, and dropped the complexity of alignment.
Weird how, over the years, I'd forgotten that we already used 9 way, and had convinced myself that all Basic had the 3 way...
Will you show how BECMI and Mentzer are different from both ODD and ADD, as I only realized in the last year that they were different. I started playing in '81 I think and I never new they were different.
I intend to cover both Moldvay and Mentzer and discuss how they are different from each other as well as from both OD&D and from AD&D. It will make the series a little complicated but I think it's worth covering.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
Magic Missile is an automatic hit in B/X edition.
It is indeed, and in pretty much every other edition of the game other than 4th, as I mentioned in the video. I started with B/X and was used to Magic Missile being an automatic hit.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
The Zed Edition
Did you read Deep Cuts from Image Comics?
Do you think only being up to 3 Levels was a mistake?
I think if it went up to 5 levels it would feel a little more worth it. 3 is almost pointless. The 90s "New Easy to Master" and "Classic Dungeon & Dragons Game" went to 5 levels.
@yourdagan, Holmes opined that if your intention was to play AD&D that you would be better off not playing his edition. He said so in his 1981 book ‘Fantasy Role Playing Games’. So the answer to your question is that, in a way, Holmes himself thought so.