Fighting games should just be turn based. I lack dexterity and reaction times. I don't have time to learn how to play or develop my reactions. What about lil ol me?
I just hope motion inputs stay as an option. The phasing out of motion inputs is what I was concerned about when simple inputs started gaining more traction. I actually like how motion inputs feel and I want them to stay.
You'll probably grow out of preferring them if all games go the way of Granblue Rising. I love motions too but I know if every game just let me do 1 button specials and there was no downside for doing so then I would eventually stop bothering with inputs entirely. I play Lily in SF6 so the temptation to switch to Classic already exists for me. Only thing that has stopped me is the loss of certain normals and the 20% reduction on one button specials.
@@SomniaCE Exactly. I prefer motion inputs too but I'm not going to choose the obviously weaker control option just because I'm used to it and it feels better.
For all the tutorials added to fighting games in recent years I don't think any of them has taken a crack at explaining how to do motion inputs really. There are a few very common mistakes beginners do, and if they're just addressed somewhere I think it would become clear how small that hurdle really is.
EXACTLY. Poor tutorials is really whats been a thorn in the side of fighting games for all this time. So many people I know have had the capacity to do DP motions but simply couldnt understand what they were meant to do because of bad tutorials. Once I spelt it out for them theyre suddenly nailing it. I think modern controls is a massive overstep of a solution and causes more harm than good
that's where SF6 comes in with world tour, it's basically a giant +16hrs tutorial and best of all, it does include minigames for motion and charge inputs
@@cerdi_99 Their heart was in the right place with what they did in World Tour, but they need to iterate on it once or twice more before they stick the landing. They were going for Karate Kid chores to teach you how to play the game, and they only kind of managed to do that.
I remember BlazBlue's tutorials doing a pretty solid job at explaining motion inputs. Continuum Shift's tutorial is actually what taught me how to do them in the first place.
I'll always remember picking up Strive and one of the tuto mission dropping all my character's (Giovanna) specials on me in one go. That shit got me stuck for like a week of turning on the game, trying to do the mission, failing to do the 4 moves back to back for like an hour, quitting and back at it the next day. I've stuck with it and managed to power through (with some googling on tricks to do that damned Z-motion) but god, never before had I seen a tutorial of all things feeling like it was precision designed to make me quit the game.
I love how motion inputs feel, even with non fighting games with motion inputs such as Castlevania SotN. I believe that granblue (original) had a good compromise to maintain this and project L looks good given the amount of complexity and variety the rest of mechanics have. I'm hopeful that input motions stay in future games, I can't imagine Guilty Gear without them.
On the other end, I invested 20 hours into GGS and I have carpal tunnel. I gave up on the game because doing the super move half moon forward input was impossible for me to do naturally without killing my hands. They lost a player because of that, and if you say "well we dont need you anyways" yes, you do. Fighting games have the unfortunate feature of living and dying on its community. The more homogenized gamers become with preferences the harder itll become for these people to keep playing other new players. Modern controls are a good thing, and being nerfed because fuck modern users feels bad. Making them the same just because doesnt work, but we need a new better work around to make both options work.
@@GamezPDD I agree with you, quite a bit! But if you dont mind me asking; would a all button controller (i.e hitbox etc) be beneficial for you? Just asking out of curiosity
@@armorgiraffeThis is something I was thinking too; Melee’s equivalent of leverless controllers was, in large part, created because people were developing arthritis and other hand problems from playing the game and wanted a way to play it again, and now they are able to.
@@GamezPDD I don't think most people want modern controls nerfed because "fuck modern users." Like Sajam says in the video, there are real, important balance reasons modern inputs need to be made weaker than traditional inputs. I'm all for fighting games becoming more inclusive, and growing the community, but I don't think every game needs to cater to the biggest audience possible. Older, more complex and difficult games than GGST still have dedicated communities because of rollback updates and Fightcade. There's room in the FGC for both mainstream accessibility and more niche, difficult games.
Motion inputs can be an integral part of a character's gameplay design and in making characters feel distinct to control. In arcana heart for example, the character yoriko, who fights with a demon cat broomstick thing, can buff her demon (which is crux of her gameplan) for a long duration by inputing a pentagram, or for a much shorter duration by inputting a triangle. Not only do these inputs make yoriko feel very unique to control, but they are also thematically appropriate and add an extra layer of strategy that a yoriko player always needs to consider.
I've always appreciated Pocket Rumble's simple solution to this problem: specials are one button, but you have to hold that button for a handful of frames. This mimics the time it takes to do a motion input, increasing the time it takes to get the move to come out in neutral, but still allowing for the move to come out immediately when used as a reversal. I'd definitely like to see SF6 adopt this to create better parity between modern and classic.
How long was the hold time tho? The topic is so complicated. If you make it fast, like 2 frames per input, lets say cammy lv3 , it would still be insane, if there is no damage reduction. Thats why i dont want it, there is no perfect solution. Either you build your gsme from the ground up with simple inputs , or you do not do them at all. On the other hand, i like that the meta is more interesting, if you play against a good modern maris/cammy/luke , once they have lv3 you cannot do certain moves, that you COULD risk against classic, because you know that they can easily react with one button. But i dont like the inconsistencies in general, AND i dont like that the playerbase gets split and suddenly hate emerges against modern players and even against calssic players xD (i really saw that in a diaphone video)
I completely understand the balancing reasons to have motion inputs, and I get why people who are totally comfortable with them might really want them to stay, but I feel like the barrier they represent to "new" players (read: anyone who isn't extremely experienced with the genre) is understated here. I've been playing fighting games on and off for like 5 years and I STILL struggle a lot with anything more complicated than a quarter-circle, and even those quarter-circles aren't 100% consistent. Every time I lose a match because I knew what I wanted to do but fucked up the input multiple times it makes me want to stop playing the game. I don't want to spend hundreds of hours drilling DP inputs just to be able to consistently DP instead of accidentally quarter-circling half the time, I just want to be able to use the goddamn moves I'm trying to use. I think this is a nontrivial aspect of why Smash is the most popular fighting game - despite all the insane technical depth to stuff like movement, there's virtually no technical barrier to using all of the moves on each character on command. You can say "oh it's okay for new players to be bad, let them be new", but when "new players" is like 90% of the potential audience, and overcoming that hurdle takes a lot of dedicated effort that almost none of them actually want to put in, it represents a HUGE barrier to entry for the genre and to any given game. If a game wants to appeal to an audience outside of the normal FGC niche, simple inputs is a very good way to do that.
@@iminyourwalls8309 If casual players and newbies aren't turned away by the execution barrier, the game will attract and retain more casuals and newbies, and then they'll have more people at their skill level to play against. I'm not saying every game needs simple inputs. Not every game is for everyone and making a game that's specifically targeted towards experienced FGC people is fine. But if your goal is to make a game that appeals to non-FGC players, simple inputs are a good way to work towards that goal. I assume this is why Project L is being built with simple inputs - they want to attract the biggest audience possible, and most of their established LoL/LoR/Arcane audience doesn't play fighting games.
@@iminyourwalls8309not really. Fighting games aren’t just about motion inputs. It’s controlling the neutral. Pressuring your opponent in the corner. Creating mental stacks. Motion inputs are the first (and largest barrier) for new players to get past before they can really start playing the game. What modern control in SF6 is allow new players to be alleviated off the first barrier to allow them to actually focus on playing the game rather than learning to be at a skill level in which they can start playing it. I don’t think modern should be the only option (depending on the game. But I also think the hate is overstated. It allows more options, and both motion and modern inputs provide different things. One isn’t necessarily better (in most cases, depending on how it’s designed) but they are different.
It's important to note that it's not JUST being bad. It's also that being bad in a way that isn't fun. If you can't land motion inputs in a fighting game with some level of consistency, you will repeatedly find yourself in situations where you made the right call and the game just did not do what you told it to and then you fail and you lose. And no, the game's not broken, it's not unfair, you could learn those specials and get better. But it feels bad. And the lack of intuitive feedback makes it worse. If you can't dribble in basketball, you will know, in a general sense, what went wrong, even if you know what the right thing is. As a new player, motion inputs are a lot more opaque than that. You can do what feels like the same input twice and have it work the first time and fail the second.
I just get frustrated because I don't like how neutral changes when people start reaction dragon punching everything. Just getting jump-ins is one thing, but it feels they can react to anything
I think this is a great over-exaggeration to something that's fundamentally more nuanced. Drive impact can be a single button input. Yet even though drive impact is on paper very reactable, pros very regularly fail to react to it in time. It changes risk/reward in a meaningful way yes (i.e it makes it easier to react), but to say it changes neutral into "you can react to anything" is just untrue.
This. Playing against people who just hold back with their finger on the special button isn't fun. Is it OP? No. Is it broken? No. It just makes the game boring and I personally don't like it.
@@sas911 That's a whole lotta words just to say "technically they can't react to everything but it just makes it easier", which is what the problem is. You can 100% feel it when you are fighting someone using modern controls.
Are you playing the version of SF6 where your console explodes if you try to block? He doesn't 'react', he's preemptively stuffing you. You must have a tell or a string, or a range, that you always throw out that move. If you consistently cancel into armour, Ken will always cancel into DP. Let's be real Ken will always cancel into Ex DP, I know because I'm a Ken, but try baiting and blowing him up for it. To bait it, instead of cancelling into armour, cancel into, block! A DP bait is like 60 precent with resources, level 1. My friend is a Marisa, I play Ken, and the match up is gross. Lots of perfects either way. A lot of fun!
To me I’ve always preferred motions simply cause they give the designer more options for the characters move list. There are just more opportunities with motion + button then one of the 4 cardinal directions plus a button. But even with saying that, there are plenty of games that are great with 1 button specials cause it’s designed with that in mind. It all comes down to what type of game they want to make.
I'm glad someone else gets the other reasons why motion inputs exist besides balancing. It's frustrating that all these discussions boil down to balancing and ignoring any other reasoning or intricacies to adding motions. It's reductive Toolbox characters like Chipp and Ibuki could not exist without using motion inputs to handle all of their moves. You could make characters that are similar to them like one character in Fantasy Strike but that's NOT the same character and would arguably feel watered down to people going from those two to a the other.
@@kholdkhaos64ray11 I would like to point out that Tekken has got a movelists that looks like a short essay, and while they do have some motion inputs, a lot of character don't have many motion inputs (some characters are exceptions to this, I know), and while it's a lie to say Tekken has 0 or easy execution, there is ways to do things like Chipp/Ibuki without motion inputs.
@@DerpyPloo Tekken is a 3D game that has completely different design hurdles than 2D games. They even have to make strings and context/position sensitive moves to make them work the way they want. Hell a lot of the "moves" are essentially just command normals and target combos from 2D games anyways. They also limit the amount of movement you have compared to 2D games because of the 3D aspect. I don't see how citing them works in this There are ways to do characters like Chipp and Ibuki without motion inputs but you aren't playing the same character at that point. That's like saying playing Geiger is the exact same as playing Guile. Even SF6 players are separating modern characters from Classic versions because they play so different
@@kholdkhaos64ray11 This isn't true honestly. There's many ways to adjust direction + button to give depth to toolbox characters. Such as double button/triple button + direction and cutting down on the amount of the differing move per weight of the buttons. This may not be easily feasible in the current state of GBVS+R but in future games with simpe inputs you could have up to (3 buttons * 3directions + (3 two button combos * 3 directions) + 3 three button combo * 3 direction) I'm not counting in air buttons or any button plus up.
@@DerpyPloo I agree on the Tekken part, but I will also add thought that many of tekkens moves function more like command normals or strings/gatlings than a typical special move.
I think games built for one button specials are fine but may need to rethink some of the genre conventions. The DP gets brought up a lot, and it's easy to understand why. With one button it comes out as an anti air too fast, but add too much start up and it becomes an unreliable reversal. But anti air and reversal don't need to be the same button. Even within the realm of motion inputs, Gear's Anji splits that across multiple special moves, as do several parry and air grab characters.
Exactly, the motion inputs balance so much and inform the character. Charge moves needing you to hold back, dp being objectively faster when moving forward, supers needing longer inputs etc.
Having to do a motion instead of a button is a 2 frame difference. Unless a motion is very, very long, the time to input it doesn't balance the moves. Funny you mention Anji, too, since his "DP" (and pin, and command jump) are literally just a single button after inputting Spin2Win and his best anti-airs are single buttons. Anti-air and reversal being the same *move* is what's bad when you're playing modern flowchart kens, not modern control itself.
That conversation reminds me of how super smash creates execution barriers everywhere else, so the one-button moves have a lot of opportunities to whiff or fail to combo as expected. It's definitely a lot trickier to switch games to simple inputs than it would seem at first.
I love the modern controls in sf6. Matter fact I switch from modern to classic depending on the character. I really hope motions inputs doesnt disappear in the future, they're an integral part of the fighting game experience.
Main issue I believe that Sajam brings up is the game has been built around it from the ground up. Basically only new IPs I think it doesn’t really fit in street fighter. I think the idea of having both in the long term is just convoluted and problematic. It’s going to be a ongoing balancing act on top of balancing everything else. And I believe it’s adding other issues on top of all of this with accessibility controls and input shortcuts (new option select bug)
I would have never picked up SF6 if it didn't have something that helped me get into it. I grew up playing fighting games at home as a kid, but I've always wanted to play more fighting games online. But having to learn inputs that go beyond the standard set of SF inputs (quarter circles, double down, charges, DP) was a huge barrier in a lot of games, even if its a game I theoretically would like and enjoy. I don't particularly _enjoy_ the motion inputs for fighting games; some people love it but I think I'd rather get good at timing, neutrals, footsies and chaining/labbing attacks together. Because modern and world tour is there I actually bought the game, sank in time in the lab and combo trials, climbed ranks and have hundred hours into it. I dunno, most people talking about Modern vs. Classic rarely ever bring up modern controls STILL has manual inputs for stuff, and the one-button input for specials has to be particularly selected for balance reasons -- I can't do some really good combos because I don't have the manual input version of it. Supers is probably another conversation, but in my experience the 80% damage scaling on raw has been the difference between me confirming a win or not. I'd rather have the choice still be there but if it is killing the player expression in the game (as people bring up one button DP all the time), then the devs should just consider what goes into the one-button. Don't put a DP as a one button, or make the supers do something different if you use the quick input (less positive frames, don't knock down, etc.)
@@FeresRainwhisker This is the question I have been asking people. Do you care about playing or do care about winning? Because most people say it’s playing but then if you were to have a 50% dmg debuff they think that is too much. So which is it? It also allows you to do certain special moves without having the balancing method of the inputs like he mentions in the video. Like DP or sonic boom where you have to press forward for some frames with national inputs or charging. In general it’s just too hard to have both in my opinion. If you go back and look at any game with grooves / styles is just a nightmare long term with the game. It’s too hard to balance. That is why they should of just thought of assesabilty and made the frames / dmg much worse as a stepping stone not a potential replacement. Or make everyone use modern controls. I really think it should be nerfed more because it absolutely does detract from the core experience that is original street fighter / certain gameplay.
@@TheKizersoze13 This is the reason there is a team to balance the game. Of course there should be a trade-off between difficulty and reward. If luke's target combo did 50% of your bar, it wouldn't be fair, but if it did 5%, even though its really easy to use, there's no point using it as it isn't competitive. This is the task of balancing modern vs classic. There probably is a few issues with it, this is the first street fighter to ever be released with any form of modern controls, it's not going to be perfect first try. Majority of high level play is still played on classic from what i've seen, and me and my friends have finally been able to play street fighter on fairly even grounds because of modern controls. They're veterans with great technical input and experience, so I still lose 90% of games against them even with modern inputs, but the important part is that I'm losing because they're playing better than me, it doesn't feel like im losing because either A). I know what I need to do to punish but haven't spent months if not years practicing the muscle memory for the input, or B). when given the opportunity to punish, and I know I can punish, I don't have a combo built into muscle memory to let out on a moments notice like they do. If I am meant to anti air or punish with a combo, I can do that now, I am not gatekept from having fun with my friends until I've spent months or years practicing all the clunky buttons, which makes me want to keep playing and improving! Classic inputs are fine for the veterans who have used them their whole lives, and these veterans are the only people who are complaining about modern, so the community needs to consider whether they want to keep the joy of fighting games to themselves while the community shrinks, or modernise it and expand it to the wider audience so that everyone can enjoy them. SF6 already made that decision, hence the "modern" inputs. Even if this changes the balance of the game, and the meta in which people tackle different situations, we shouldn't be afraid of change, fighting game players have always been told to just adapt and git gud, so what's different here?
@@billysimcoe755 This is on my phone so it might be full of mistakes. let’s start for the top. Glad more people are playing the game. That is cool. Most importantly glad Capcom is making more money so they can continue with this game and Hopefully make others. But I think people are missing the point of Sajam video and my comment completely. The point he makes and I also stated is that SF is balanced around classic control inputs. The commands / normals have been balanced around 20 years with those inputs in mind. Having the simplified inputs leads to a bunch of things that are just about impossible to balance like perfect flash kicks / Walking 720s / instant supers If you think about any other game where someone has 5-20 years experience and knowledge you would think they should be better at the game. Have you ever thought it’s weird that someone who has never really played before can all of sudden be very competitive to someone who has been playing forever. I know people always want a easy way out and it makes sense. Game is easier / reward is easier so it makes people happy. But doing modern should yield less results, you are doing less. THE MAIN ISSUE is the DMG and character balance with modern. Certain characters are much better with it because of the things I stated earlier and part of the balance mechanic was removed normals as well (not random but not 100% either). Next potential issue is the movement of character / position doing thing that are impossible for classic to do. Again not that is a nail on the coffin and makes the game unplayable but with that in mind it’s going to take way longer / a different style of balance then they have ever done before. So more potential for errors or poor balance. On top it looks like they are committed to 1 year balance cycles so if its wrong people have to deal with it (casuals are not used to that). This potential issue also makes matches less interesting / potentially boring because it takes reactions out of the equation most of the time when watching / playing matches. Yes when you are playing you can execute but over the long run you won’t get the same satisfaction from learning the skill. Moreover when watching matches it’s not impressive when someone is able to have a crazy reaction. Don’t have a issue with modern controls but I agree with Sajam is SF is a odd choice for them because of the history / inputs / pacing / mental stack. Other types of games are better choices in my opinion and other styles of games are already using similar control types.
@@TheKizersoze13I think SF is probably the best choice from a financial and dev standpoint. Not only is it like the top 3 fighters (I think it’s SF, MK and Tekken), but has a huge social standing for the genre in public. This means they’ll have a far larger audience to test it with, and also have the budget and dev size and skill to effectively learn and develop it. From a gameplay standpoint, not so much. Even for motion inputs, it’s always been relatively easy and simple on that side. But for a new mechanic, that requires lots of thoughts and consideration, probably the best choice. It would be a bit difficult with MK cause while 2D, character wise and their moves, doesn’t strictly follow the traditional things. Like sub-zero and scorpion have traits of a shoto, but also lack in many areas of that archetype but has many different things instead. Now with new modern players being able to beat veteran classic, I’m sure there is still some balancing required (cause it’s new), but I don’t think it’s all from just modern being easier and at least below tournament champ level, op; but may just be a case of modern players thought processes being different due to them not needing to think about motion inputs. This means, a dp changes from ‘should I try and predict with dp? Can I execute it in time?’ To ‘predict and punish with do’. The fact they have this strong tool easily to use can be something other players can consider. ‘Oh, he’s a modern so he’ll probably try and react or predict with a dp to punish. Let me try and bait or try something else’. Because the thought process changes, it means the classic player in turn has to change their though process as well when fighting them. Like I said, modern isn’t exactly balanced yet (luke…) but I don’t think it’s that bad, so far at least.
A great example of motion inputs balancing a move is Kazuya’s EWGF in Smash Ultimate. Imagine if Electric was his neutral B. He wouldn’t have a reason to use any other ground move. It combos into itself and into death.
They made the move extremely easy to do consistently in Smash though, way easier than in Tekken. And a move being OP due to it's execution has historically been a shit way of balancing things because people WILL get good at doing the execution and then what's the downside? Vatista is a blight Uni despite being gated by her execution requirements. And then what happens if the character isn't worth the execution requirement?
@@Aregulargameplayerits fine as long as the execution is hard enough. Dont know about smash, but ewgf is probably the best move in the game in tekken, but using it to its full potential is extremely difficult to the point that pro players will usually opt for easier options. In theory, you can punish any -13 move with kaz pewgf. In practice this is almost impossible to do consistently, its a level of difficulty above even another notorious execution-locked thing (kazuya counterhit df2 pewgf). These things are OP but extremely cool when they go off in a tournament setting. You can see the culmination of 1000s hours of practice in a single moment in a way you can't when everything is easy but balanced. And its not like kazuya is winning tournaments. Im not in favor of taking out cool and hype things like this just for balance sake. Especially when you can balance in other ways to mitigate.
@@Aregulargameplayer I would say this is a bad take; you should never assume people will always get good 'enough' to do something with perfect consistency. I've seen Daigo drop basic combos, seen props fuck up super commands under pressure. Yes, they are usually freak events, but they CAN happen. And that doesn't even come CLOSE to how hard ewgf is to do. Your argument is almost facile to break because all anyone has to do is point at the fact that literal pros don't just wind god fist people to death, in fact nobody ever has in a tournament setting. It's physically possible, and it's coded into the game... it just hasn't happened, mostly because to be a pro is to choose consistency over risk and trying to infinite ewgf is incredibly risky. And why is it risky....? Becuase even the best in the world have a very high chance of fucking it up.
@@Aregulargameplayerthere are limits to the 'players will just learn it' side Anything thats a just frame input will be a risk even with the best execution
@@AregulargameplayerGranblue ALONE completely dismantles this argument. i play vira in granblue, all inputs are considerably easier. Every super is just 236236, the simple input for super is 236. Despite playing fighting games for over 2 years now i will ALWAYS use the simple input for supers bc it’s just more reliable. nobody does the heavy DP motion except to end a combo bc it’s quite simply much easier to do a direction than a motion. Yes, people will learn and practice doing hard stuff. THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF TRAINING MODE. FOR YOU TO GET GOOD AT EXECUTING. It’s why the little lab goblins know the ins and outs of their character, they practice more than anyone else, and they know exactly when they can use their hard tools and will actively put themselves in situations to make using it easier and even stronger. The problem isn’t that these hard tools are too strong, it’s that there’s nothing to discourage them from USING it. The appropriate concern is that other characters simply may not have enough strength to deal bc they’re balanced around being easier to play.
I feel like Leon Masey's video on Motion Inputs fits into this discussion perfectly with how he talked about Risk Vs Reward and inputs He used the example of what to do when someone jumps in on you with a jumping attack in Third Strike. The three universal options are 1. Block 2. Crouching Heavy Punch 3. DP Blocking is the easiest, but doesn't stop the opponents offense Crouching Heavy Punch can stop their offense and do a bit of damage, but requires some timing and also returns them to full screen, resetting the neutral DP requires the most commitment and has the strictest timing for preforming the input, but is the most punishing for the enemy since it does the most damage and can even put you in advantage. And all of these options are balanced by their inputs. The simpliest give you the least amount of advantage, and the more complicated give you the most. But if DP's have the same input as Crouching Heavy Punch, then that completely invalidates C+HP as an anti air option, leaving no point to use it at all. You can use the argument of "I recognized the jump in, why am I being punished for not being able to do the DP motion in time??!?!" But the same could also be said for "I saw the enemy first in a FPS, why am I being punished for not clicking on his head fast enough??!?" I'm not directly saying "Get gud", but I am saying that if you want to get better at a game, it's better to work with it and practice than to say "I can't do this, make it easier for me" But that's just my side and take on it.
Strive launched with no one button specials and I didn't hear anyone complaining that it didn't have them, so you know it isn't actually a big deal, it's just a mental hurdle, not to mention no one is going to do the slower motions when there's no upside to doing them. Motions are just strictly worse than one button moves
You didn't hear people complaining because the people deterred by motion inputs didn't bother to pick the game up. Street Fighter 6 did in one month of sales what it took Strive two years to do.
@@gamelord12 But it's freakin' Street Fighter and a solid, gorgeous looking game with plenty of SP content. GGSt is anime-style (visually), comes from a series known as very complex, fast-paced anime-fighter (nowadays called airdashers) with heavy rock themes all over. You can't really compare the two since they started from completely different places.
@@NaoyaYami I know that Strive had positive word of mouth from all sorts of places for being far easier to learn than its predecessors, and my friends who would very much be into the heavy metal rock themes still noped out because the motions are huge deterrent. But they all gave Street Fighter 6 the time of day and had a great time on modern controls. "Freakin' Street Fighter" 4 and 5 didn't convince them to pick up the controller.
Honestly, I wish they did, though :/. Unlike SF6 whiff punishes are a lot harder and one button DP's have the same reward as counterhit 6P aside from higher damage. And most of the supers designed for whiff punishing have low damage (minus HPB). I don't see players having that much bigger advantage because of how easy it is to get a hard knockdown + c.S pressure.
The coolest part of fighting games to me, when I first noticed them as a kid,was the ability to consistently pull off motion inputs and combos WHILE ALSO having good strategy. I never thought of them as separate things, just all apart of the game. It’s crazy to me that people think they are separate now.
I could also be a cheeselord for a sec and talk about how things like crosscuts and fancy charging can feel like practicing your katas after you stole the secret scrolls that the master keeps under his pillow.. Learning and discovering and 🤢 _growth_ are part of fighting games
Couldn't have really said it better myself. As a more casual player I definitely like simple inputs more, but I can at least realize that motion inputs have a place and shouldn't be removed entirely, especially from legacy series. That said, I kind of wonder why they didn't just cut motion inputs from Rising entirely if they were willing to go this far.
One reason devs might be pushing for simple controls is the rise of hitbox/leverless controllers because of how fast they're able to perform motion inputs compared to other controller types. You can get 3f dp's reliably and consistently, stuff like EWGF becomes trivial on a leverless because timing the stick to the button was what made it a difficult input. By making inputs simple for all controllers they create parity between all controller types
that's a good reason for them to do that, but i strongly doubt that it actually is why. i could maybe see it being in the discussion for capcom because of how in tune they are with competitive stuff in general, but most devs (especially japanese ones) tend to ignore things like that until it's impossible to do so. i think largely because most of the discussion of the topic is outside of japan. the melee community has been having a lot of discussion about this for a while now about modding certain things in the game to be easier or even just more consistent so that people dont have to use $300 modded controllers to have optimal gameplay
I remember playing rising thunder. As soon as I switched to the shoto character I got a 100% winrate as it was almost impossible to lose with a single button DP to whiff punish and anti-air, and a one button tatsu to easily beat fireballs. The game turned into 20% footsies and 80% reaction checks. Motions play a part in my personal enjoyment of fighters as the variance between pressing a button, doing command normals and inputting special moves all contribute to a gameplay flow I enjoy. They also play a big part in giving more room for balancing characters. DP's are the easiest example, but most moves are balanced a lot around how they are inputted.
I like one button specials for purely an accessibility standpoint. My cousins loves fighting games but can only play with one hand because he suffered a stroke. The advent of one button specials is a trend I love to see for people like my cousin to at least have less of a sheer disadvantage.
Good! I’m glad people with accessibility issues are able to enjoy the game. People need to take the time to learn the modern matchup of each character. It’s basically another character to play against.
It really does! It's only something I've started to do in recent times (and inconsistently at that), but when you do succeed it's incredibly satisfying. Comparing that to when I was doing 1-button anti-air DPs in GBVS, that was fun the first 10 times as a novelty but it quickly became stale and unsatisfying in the end.
The example on Dribbling was on point, honestly you can simplify some hard inputs but not remove them, also there was a drawback on doing so, then you reward people who execute them better and those who don't still can use them anyway and play with a small disadvantage since they are on "Easy Mode". Honestly I won't be touching GBVS never again, this is the lowest they could reach, go get casuals and live by them if you take that path as a developer/IP. It's like saying "Now we removed assisted AIM on FPS and will have AUTO-Aim because you know... it is more important to decide who you shot first in some situations"
They did change cooking though. Chef knives, mandolins, spirallizers, hell food processors. A lot of the manual skill that used to be required to be a good cook either no longer exists or has been drastically simplified. Knowledge , instincts, and experience still separate good cooks from amazing cooks but the manual dexterity barrier to entry has been drastically lowered.
this gotta be the most bizarre comparison and i see where youre coming from but i think its bit different in fighting games since youre going head to head with one another and if a player using classic controls can react faster but still lose to a modern control player purely because they have to do less i think thats a bit unfair. its not really about how many routes and how much tech you know, more about being able to react at a robotic level which straight cancels gameplay and nuance
@@Gr3s0n1should've picked modern then. You can't complain about the food processor chopping faster than you when you refused the option in the first place.
It's obvious Capcom has put consideration into designs for specials with the introduction of Rashid. His heavy mixer not being frame 1 invincible is a big reason I don't play him. But it's entirely understandable. As having an invincible anti air that hits both sides. On a qcf input would be too strong. Crazy to think classic would ever have been removed
I love how one of the arguments from the GBVSR director is "there are lots of games with motion controls so we're removing them". But precisely, GBVS was a great way to learn motion inputs to then play these other games. Now that there isn't any incentive to do so, beginners playing GBVSR will have a harder time transitioning to other games in the genre.
having the restrictions for a move be built into how its input is something i really enjoy because how good you are at inputting that move determines how frequently you can use it, even though you'll always be somewhat limited you kind of grow with moves and that's always been a fun part of fighting games for me. i think the inverse of having the game decide how often you can do a move with cooldowns instead is just lame in comparison, it was interesting in granblue when you had agency over how long that cooldown would be but now you don't even have that, so it just sounds restrictive in comparison to motion input specials.
My takeaway is that they had already solved this in the first game. I don't get the angle that it reduces the hurdle when players will be forced to face motion inputs in almost any othwr game. The previous game having both with mechanical differences gave beginners a reason to eventually learn motion inputs.
Because having a place to learn the actual mechanics and nuances of the game makes it easier to learn other games down the line. Play a simple game to learn fighting game nuance and have fun as a beginner. Then the hurdle to learning a game with harder commands is easier.
@@hteety But then people will complain that any non-simple FG will prevent them from playing because theyd have to "learn those stupid archaic inputs" to even start... Sajam, Max and few others proven multiple times that you don't need to learn optimal (or even decent) combos to start "playing" fighting games but idiots who were never interested in the genre in the first place will ignore that and complain anyway.
@@NaoyaYamiit's because Sajam and Max are too deep in and completely out of touch with the casual base. They don't know what it's like to be outside looking in anymore.
@@seokkyunhong8812 Or maybe it's because outsiders are incapable of realizing what fighting games are about? Its definitiely not flashy combos and specials. Even if you give those outsiders easy access to those, they will stll get bodied against anyone even somewhat proficient in fighting games (I'm talking just beating hard-level CPU here). Doesn't matter if they can throw out instant-specials left and right if opponent won't let them land it (if they let them come out in the first place). Simple inputs do absolutely nothing about that issue. If Cygames wanted simple inputs in their game - fine, that's their right. It's just that their excuse for that makes zero sense.
@@NaoyaYamibut it is. Optimized gameplay is 100% about consistent and optimized combos and special. If you can't do TOD with Sparking in DBFZ right now, you are absolutely sunk. You absolutely need to know how to do optimal damage in SF6 because drive rush into low damage stuff hurts your overall gameplan strongly. You absolutely need optimal set ups or high damage depending on character to win in GGST. You absolutely need optimized gameplan from the start if you want to play fighting games otherwise you will lose every match.
I agree. Having an option for instant 1 button DP was a nice backup, but if you couldn't capitalize on it, you were left without a strong defensive tool (gods forbid you wasted simple EX DP...). Simple supers were still plenty powerful but did reward those that went the extra mile to learn proper input to really bring out of them (especially Djeeta's rekka SSBA).
@@johndelanie3649 Seems you are speaking with your ass, not your mouth since all that comes out is crap. You have no idea why GBFV died, right? Besides "dead" is not a proper term, since game holds somewhat decent playerbase and it's not hard to find matches via discord. There more recent games that are more dead than GBFV (DNF Duel and Type Lumina come to mind immediatelly).
But the solution for people who don't like dribbling isn't to remove it from basketball; it's to play a game without dribbling, which is what people are doing.
Bad at dribbling isn't causing you to eat dirt. It's a piss poor analogy, because a bad dribble is still a dribble. Input barrier means you just don't play.
@@seokkyunhong8812 Being bad at dribbling means you are going to suffer constant turnovers, either from penalties or the defense snatching the ball from you. Being bad at special moves just means you have to rely more on normals and throws. With the former you are nearly trapped. With the latter you still have options.
As a Goldlewis main since he came out I can genuinely say hes my favorite Fighting Game character of all time. He is probably the most intuitive control scheme of any character you literally swing the stick in the way you want the behemoth to go and it maps directly to the motion input you're doing its awesome. If we take motion inputs away we never have another Goldlewis again. I tried playing Power Rangers and it was just so boring I couldnt get into it with the 1 button special moves. Project L announcing simple inputs is the whole reason im less excited for the game I was super hyped until they announced that. Ill still give it a try when it comes out but I don't think ill have a good time without motion controls.
@@seokkyunhong8812his point is not that goldlewis wouldn't be possible with simple inputs, but that the 1:1 correspondence between the motion the player inputs and the the path the character's attack travels would be lost
@@kumonojuza5583and that doesn't matter. Moves are mostly arbitrary things. There's no reason for GL's gun or drone to be S button moves instead of P or K, but it is. Why do both forward projectile moves have completely opposite directions for inputs? Why is the laser a k move when the other security spending moves are a motion + S? It's a meaningless thing.
@@seokkyunhong8812 The harmony between the motion input's PHYSICAL MOTION on the player's controller would be completely lost. Obviously you could 1:1 Map Goldlewis to just direction inputs but it wouldn't be the same.
@@seokkyunhong8812 It's all arbitrary. The game would be the same if all we had on screen were hitboxes, no need for the fancy character art and throwing out punches. Except that that motion is pleasing to the eye, and makes intuitive sense such that you can understand the basics of what's happening on screen without ever even playing the game. It looks cool man, and better yet, it *feels cool to do*.
I know it's the nature of all discourse now but i wish people in support of simple inputs understood how to justify themselves better. I remember the original thread and how most people in the replies were of the opinion that motion inputs where just arbitrary gatekeeping from veteran players. That sort of misconception builds animosity from the start and you lose any chance of convincing anyone that the devs made a right choice. Motion inputs FEEL good to do, they give personality and balance out moves. you can't just disregard that. I don't need motion inputs to enjoy fighting games. I'm willing to give any game that's been earnestly desgined to be enjoyed such a way the time of day but until the perspective shifts away from this idea of "playing the REAL game" i will always respectfully push back on it.
There's zero need to justify against unreasonable people. "Motion inputs feel good" you say this unironically like a fact while demanding that people justify themselves better. LMAO.
@@brian_creamno, I read it. It's just hypocrisy on your part demanding that the otherside explain themselves with decorum and logic while having none yourself.
Honestly I get what ur saying but everyone is different. I got into FG's because motion inputs are cool, so if it doesnt have them im just not gonna play.I played some of the GB beta and i never used the simple inputs but i dont like how if i wanted to be objectively better i would have to use the objectively better controls
I'd really like to emphasize another design space that motion inputs allow developers to interact with and that's actually the consequence of how certain specials can become circumstantially impossible, which allows you to alter their power in other ways by restricting when they can be used. This is especially obvious for like charge inputs. If you have a charge input fireball, then you just can't use that special while approaching without hitting the brakes first. This means you could potentially make a stronger defensive fireball that can't be held as an ace in the hole when approaching. Likewise, even without charge inputs, it's interesting how z inputs tend to overlap with quarter circle inputs. In the same manner, if you're holding forward and you try to do a fireball input, you can get a z input instead and therefore not be able to do the other input while approaching. This can also be different between characters because if you designed one that doesn't have a z input in their kit then this option is available to them. Another example of this kind of thing is like with charge input DPs, where on defense you could be threatening to use one at any time, but if you're forced to block an overhead, then you stop holding down to hold back, you dropped the charge and now the opponent can structure their offense having taken that one tool away. Even aside from the delay in input, one button specials can't respect this kind of priority override that lets you restrict when certain tools are available.
A common argument I see is that people want modern inputs with no downside for one reason or another. My only problem with that argument is that it fails to consider the benefits it has, let’s say that you take a damage penalty for using them or in granblues case a longer cooldown. In return for this you get frame 1 moves because you don’t have to input the motion, they come out faster and are easier to do on reaction. It also is impossible to read at a medium level of play because you won’t see any motion indicating that they are going for a particular move. There are downsides yes but there are upsides so it makes no sense to get rid of the downsides and leave the objectively worse control scheme in the game.
I think the cooking analogy and ones fail to see the whole picture - it's more like this: They're not making cooking easier, they're making it so you can use a hand mixer instead of a whisk. It's not like someone can't learn to use a whisk, but why not have the option of a hand mixer as well? Both of them work, and one of them makes cooking as a whole easier, but there's more to cooking than just using a mixer or whisk.
i'm physically disabled, so i appreciate this long post explaining this stuff from an accessibility [not difficulty, accessibility] point of view, but understand why it is frustrating for people. i'm a little sad the devs needed to write such an extensive thing to justify this choice in the way they did, but i appreciate the in depth discussion in the video of the implications of the design choice! i should probably be using modern controls while learning to play sf6, to reduce tangible injury to my hands, but i decided that i was going to learn the motions from the start because it seemed fun to me! now i'm learning how to do them safely, it's really satisfying. but for friends who can't perform those motions safely because of their own situations, i'm glad to see stuff like this because they can still play and have fun!
Don't take this as an insult but I am sick and tired of disabled people trying to force themselves into everything. I am close to legally blind and can't legally operate a motor vehicle. It's something I just live with. I don't want to now prohibit everybody else from driving. At the end of the day, we are irrelevant for the conversation of what should and what shouldn't be. We don't account for a big enough demographic why ruin it for everyone else?
I actually didn't even think about physical disability, damn. I guess from an accessibility standpoint, fgs have pretty much always been pretty terrible. Idk if that can ever be %100 remedied, but 1 button specials are an interesting compromise. Kind of a terrifying compromise, but yeah now that I think about it a lot of people could benefit.
@@JinTheAceStar So, your experiences are your own and I won't counter any of them there! I also can't drive for a bunch of reasons, including low vision - I take taxis and do rideshares instead. But in terms of demographic, you're drastically underestimating us. 1 in 6 people in the world are disabled in some way, and that population is rising a lot as a result of covid. Disabled people also tend to play a lot of video games! There's actually a lot of financial incentives for developers to include accessibility options. However, I was just offering something about this that made me happy for other people I know, who would like to be able to enjoy an experience. I doubt this update was designed as an accessibility feature, it just is also one. Everyone I know who plays fighting games is happy that I am finding ways to participate in something they enjoy, and giving me little tips and reminders on how to do it safely. It's just net good for games if more people are able to play them. I hope you have a good day.
@@haydarrencuzogullari5736 Yeah, it's neat! I def. understand why some folks don't like the idea, and Sajam's video on this was really informative and interesting.
Probably an unpopular opinion but as a more novice player trying to learn SF6 I find it off putting when I am trying to learn classic and I'm just getting tossed around by wakeup DP's and simple combos into super that never get dropped while I'm still fumbling my way into muscle memory. The fundamental idea that's always in the back of my mind is that me and my opponent aren't truly playing the same game and while I know good players can overcome this trying to learn classic (and SF in general as this is my first) while getting smashed around by simple inputs actually doesn't make me want to continue at all. I personally think a game either needs to completely commit to classic or completely commit to modern. This halways middle ground is not breeding a drive to continue for me. Getting washed by another classic player doesn't annoy me nearly as much as when it's a modern player.
Honestly i completely agree. I played GBVSR and i love fighting games for the motion inputs so i only used the motion inputs but the way its balanced now just has me at a complete disadvantage to those that do use it, but i dont want to lower my enjoyment just to use the objectively better input.
Even if motion inputs aren’t actually what hold back new players capcom isn’t entirely wrong about the idea of motion inputs turning new players away. New players may see motion inputs when learning the game and think they are are insurmountable skill gate to enjoy the game, capcoms rational while not exactly right is what a lot of newer players may feel. Special moves are also inherently “special” and are interesting and powerful to use so when a new player cannot access them it could be another reason to drop the game. I agree that the special inputs do not gatekeep new players from playing a fighting game it shouldn’t be disregarded, the amount of time to become a competent smash player is likely the same as becoming a competent sf player and yet you will rarely hear about a player who quit smash because doing a special move was too hard, the same cannot exactly be said for FGs
David Sirlin sits in the corner of his room in the shadows, laughing softly under his breath. He leans forward, his face coming into view from light of the computer screen. "I told you, Sajam!" he shouted. "I told you all, Hahahahaha!"
Having heard mid and high-level Granblue players' impressions of the Rising beta, this entire discourse missed the point on both sides. The real issue, or at least the one I've heard explained the most, is that a bunch of attacks were rebalanced in ways that harmed their characters in ways that wouldn't have been necessary if the old system was kept. SF6 Modern controls prove this could be done better, especially since some Modern characters are still viable despite missing chunks of their moveset!
I mean for Christ's sake, Modern Ryu is missing his best fucking punish starter (st.HK) and I don't traditionally play on pad, but I was still able to get to Gold within a couple of days, while learning the wacky control scheme, on my friend's PS5. On my PC where I can use my X360 era HitBox still, I'm a Platinum player running Classic but that took a week. You can ABSOLUTELY do work with Modern, but there's also absolutely reason to get good at Classic if you really want to maximize your efficacy in game. Which is great
Phenomenal point about how motions balance special moves. If a DP gets the reverse shoryuken input, it’s instantly more powerful without changing any other properties, frame data, etc. Excellent point 👏🏾
My first "fighting game" experience was with Smash Bros, and it's fun to play even though it has one-button specials. I'm sure I could have a blast playing a more traditional fighter with one-button specials too. However, I do really enjoy the challenge and satisfaction of pulling off a complex sequence of inputs. I use a hitbox now and doing combos feels like playing a musical instrument and that tactile feeling is a real part of my enjoyment of the game. Plinking dash into other buttons for kara cancels and dash RCs in GGST is so damn fun. Hopefully devs find ways to either balance simple vs. motion inputs, or at the very least devs keep making fighting games with only motion inputs, even if they end up being more niche. If the bigger studios all wind up only using simple controls in the future, I hope indie devs who are fans of the more old-school style will keep making games that way. At the very least we'll always have rollback to help keep older games alive.
I've started playing SF6 with my 5 year old. He only likes playing mirror matches. I play classic (I'm really bad) and he plays modern. This is nice because he can be a 5 year old and still do the cool shit he sees me attempting/failing/succeeding at.
The day motion inputs or just technical stuff in general vanishes from the genre is the day I stop buying new fighting games. The old games will always be there anyway, there's a reason I keep going back to them. I'm just not interested anymore if a lot of what I like about the genre gets removed.
Thats the one point I brought up to my fgc friends when I heard about the new simple inputs. That the meterless reversals had either better lose invicibility on non-EX or better have a long cooldown by default. Maybe my ideas werent great but I also am not excited for a game with an abundance of one button DPs.
Project L having 2 special move buttons to me feels like it would make the game more akward/annoying to play on pad than if they just had motion inputs, I'm already low on space for macros as it is, the last thing I need is 2 buttons that are effectively wasted space. This is a problem motion inputs exist to solve.
Had an argument with a guy about this exact thing and his argument was that “classic has one button anti airs too. Ken cr.HP, Ryu cr.HP, etc.” and I was explaining that they aren’t invincible to air moves or are slower than most DPs, cover less range, etc. and I was met with, “well if you lose to modern players because they anti air then you suck.” I was like… no? That’s not even the point of what we’re talking about😂
I really dislike the naming of beginner friendly control schemes like "modern" and "simple", it carries with it a connotation that regular fighting game controls are these scary, super complex things and it makes them seem imposing to new people. Regular controls *are* simple, they just require a little bit hit of time to get used to them, like any other control scheme. They don't *need* modernization because they still work incredibly well. Motions are as synonymous with fighting games as shotos, fireballs, and DPs, how many shirts are there that just have the motion for a hadouken? What other genre has a *control scheme* thats so instantly recognizable and iconic? Adding in casual controls is fine, and I'm glad its there for people with disabilities so they can enjoy fighting games too, but to completely get rid of such a hallmark of the genre is absurd.
I think Sajam's take is the best one I've seen and most closely aligns with my own perspective on Technical Inputs. There's nothing wrong with a fighting game having no technical inputs, but there are also certain advantages that come when you design a game with special inputs in mind. Think of how Counter Strike as an FPS has perfectly accurate guns even when firing 'from the hip', and the accuracy on the few weapons with scopes doesn't improve when scoped in, it simply zooms in your aim so you can see better. Then compare to Call of Duty where your weapon has a 'hip-fire accuracy' which randomly pellets bullets in an area and an 'ADS accuracy' that makes your bullets pinpoint accurate. Is one 'right' and one 'wrong'? Of course not, they're two very different games that play very differently because of different control schemes, and the fact that we can play both or either game is fucking awesome. Having an ADS accuracy difference changes a lot of how the game is played and the meta of the game, which results in a very different experience. The fact that special inputs can be dropped or flubbed allows for interesting interactions to occur when players miss inputs, and I can confirm that I've been playing fighting games for 15 odd years and I STILL mess up tiger-knees and shoryukens in the heat of the moment. That being said, it introduces that element of 'hip-fire randomness' that can be mitigated with play time, and that's just not a great fit for a lot of games. A lot of people want to jump in and start having mind games, and don't want to feel behind the curve just because they can't do a shoryuken motion consistently. That being said, other people (myself included) like feeling the game is more unpredictable, the idea that you have to stay cool under pressure and not mess up your motions or practise to get them consistent, especially in longer combos or in hitconfirms, can be intoxicating for people like me. There's room for both of us, and there are lots of games encompassing both control types. What irritates me about this post is that it does seem to come out and say simple controls are simply superior to technical controls because they remove a barrier to the fun, which is a really stupid argument because for some crazy fools like myself, the barriers to overcome ARE the fun.
I think the problem with modern in sf6 is more the autocombos. Motion controls are fun and pretty easy to get used to. But being able to just mash out a full combo into lvl 3 super with 1 button on any character is tough to fight against. You don't need to practice anything. And instant dp is annoying too.
Most auto combo in SF6 are not very good, waste a lot of drive and ends up scaling the lv3 super heavily. Most pro rarely use the full auto combo and instead use something more optimal.
I mean to be fair he wasn't talking about pros, Pros aren't the majority it's new people and casuals that use auto combos and spam auto combo. U think it's annoying than it's annoying not everyone knows how to deal with that and will have to adapt but til than ur opinion is Valid. Cause u can still lose to auto combo if ur not pass a certain level I guess n there nothing wrong if u win against or lose to it
I enjoy how simple controls encourage new players to learn Motion inputs for the benefit of damage,and cool down time. Being in a situation where they could have won if they did the motion and realizing where they need to improve. Even simple things like using a motion input when you want can be rewarding, it's an easy way to see your improvement
8:54 I just realized this isn't even a problem necessarily with FGs. LoL and DotA have characters like that already and the MOBA genre's been doing well for 10, 15 years now. Old techies, Meepo, Chen, Irelia, Ryze, Pyke, etc. There are characters in those games that are functionally unplayable for the majority of the playerbase due to how difficult the execution of the character is.
Yeah you can create technical challenges with lots of different control types. Mobas are just hitting one button for a skill but lots of champs are really technical with that + mouse movement and clicking alone.
I dont mind having more options for players, whether its Classic or an equivalent Modern system, but there has to be a give and take. Granblue I think already did this very well with the cooldown system so the change doesnt really make sense to me. If they came out like "We think Granblue would be better without motion inputs and will balance the game around that" rather than having both input systems and making one option just objectively better, I think this would be better received. But having both input systems and having no drawbacks makes it feel super arbitrary. I hope they rethink this, theres so much about Rising that is just super bizarre.
The issue with with changing FG that have used directional inputs to simple inputs is that the games were balanced with that in mind. The classic example is charge combos. They can be more powerful because they have built in difficulty. GBV found this out when moving to simple inputs with no difference in outcome. They've had to nerf damage and utility of some moves specifically because they were completely feral with 1 button. I'd argue for nerfing damage more for SF6's moderb control system, but I think they've threaded the needle much better on the whole.
They should make a fighting game that only uses simple inputs with a .5s global cooldown and the move should fail 70% of the time to create a more accurate experience for new players to all players
Yeah that's actually an interesting idea. Kinda of like Fire Emblem or XCOM but crossed with a fighting game, so you have to strategically play around the RNG while fighting.
Personally i think that even if you technically can play fighting games without being able to do the moves playing that way is just EXTREMELY DULL. People want to do cool stuff, and being able to do the special moves is a basic to doing cool stuff, it's where your characters coolness lies. Playing and awkwardly exchanging normals just isn't engaging enough for most people.
To clarify, Modern Supers are always two buttons, Special + H, along with a directional input for 2 and 3 (level 1 can fire from neutral, back for 2, down for 3) so while it is certainly easier, many of the people who use Modern for accessibility reasons can still mis-input from not being able to quite hit them both at the same time.
A friend of mine who much prefers FPS titles like CSGO and Valorant had a rather interesting suggestion as an alternative to cooldowns: Giving characters a Mana Bar that can be spent for simple inputs, or a "momentum system" where you have to use motion inputs if you want to use multiple simple inputs. These are definitely interesting and might solve the concern the devs are having with cooldowns but it also creates separate design issues so who knows
DNF uses a mana system like that, with reduced mana cost for the motion input. It did run into issues with the defensive mechanics _also_ being tied to mana, though, which made it hard to reverse your opponent's momentum.
@@woopi8003That’s mainly because DNF was designed by idiots. They took a pretty solid idea in the mana bar, and overloaded its use cases. Would love to see it done in a competent fighting game.
An extreme example of special moves, needing to be adjusted, would be Guile's flash kick and sonic boom (inputed via the touch screen) in Super Street Fighter IV: 3D Edition on the 3DS. That shit was busted.
They did this with b-hopping in Valorant. Compared to CS:GO, where b-hopping takes a lot of time to learn and skill to execute, you gain a significant advantage by moving faster than base run speed and it just feels good to do. In Valorant you can just hold W and spam mouse wheel to "b-hop". There's no movement speed advantage and it doesn't feel fun like it did in Counter-Strike. Pretty much eliminating a satisfying core element of the game in order to level the playing field.
I genuinely agree with a lot of this. The idea of having both simple and motion inputs together without any power tradeoff between the two feels bizarrely disconnected from the reality of a player's experience. Simple inputs? Cool. Motion inputs? Also cool. I started playing Smash before I went to other fighting games and games like BFTG helped with that transition from Smash to 2D fighters. BFTG gave me the ability to get used to a 2D fighting environment and inspired me to try UNI and Skullgirls until GGST released and that's when I genuinely felt more interested in playing 2D fighters over platform fighters. I'm excited that Project L has simple inputs because I have friends who are experiencing the same kind of fanboy excitement I felt for BFTG and they can go on a similar journey I did. Simple Inputs are fine. Motion inputs are fine. But they present completely different design challenges and cannot be treated as the same, this just sounds like a long winded way to say "I wanted to make a simple input fighter but we knew the sweaties would be upset if the motion inputs were gone" and that doesn't sit well with me.
Cant wait for this vid to be posted on the SF subreddit only for half of the comment section calling Sajam a modern defender while the other half calls him a gatekeeper
There are consequences to making modern controls with sf6. It doesn’t make players that use them broken but it becomes alittle too much. It’s do-able to play against them but you feel it right away that you are at a dis-advantage. You can’t jump in on them and you have to play patient like they’re guile i feel 😅.
Im new to fighting games and sf6. I feel like learning the fundamentals, lingo, inputs, TIMING, my character, the other characters, meta etc is an overwhelming task. I spend more time in training then in matches. The topic reminds me of learning piano versus violin. A child could produce a quality note on a piano, but it takes years of training to produce a passable note on the violin. TLDR; When it comes to learning inputs, I feel like I’m playing sf6 on a violin. But it is fun
I think the big takeaway is; 1. Why make things easier, it dilutes the competitive aspect IE one button DPs are not fun to play against 2. If a game can support one button inputs, like power rangers, then it is acceptable because it doesn't provide any sort of real advantage. 3. Taking away all the hard work players have put in learning all the techniques is a great way to alienate parts of your player base.
After the release of SF6, I decided to make the switch to hitbox. Been a pad player for decades, I own a stick and I can use it but I don't like it that much. I can relate to the need of modern controls. It took me about 6 days to get comfortable on hitbox. However, with that said, I could totally tell that my experience played a role in getting me back up to speed. Also, I feel like arcade sticks and leverless controllers are a lot more intuitive than it may seem. The point I'm trying to make is that it just takes time. I agree with what you say. One button specials work in games like Power Rangers or project L. It would be the dumbest thing for any company to make a game that does away with classic inputs altogether.
Motion inputs aren't just an artificial hurdle made from an archaic time. I feel like thats what the developers are now thinking, and are forgetting the importance of motion. Not only for the satisfaction it brings through its mastery, but it adds whole layers of meta game. Its a whole aspect of mastery, you had people in the past having the reputation of being execution monsters and being rewarded for it. Not only that, motions add to the depth of the mindgames, for instance such as seeing someone "teebagging" when he is in fact buffering supper, or seeing someone crouched doing seemingly nothing but he is buffering the shortcut for DP and ready to punish your approach. Shows you your opponent thoughts through the understanding of how moves are executed, and then you could fake those things, and so on and so forth. Not forgetting that making the DP motion breaks your guard and opens you up, even if only for a couple frames, doing motions cost you mental energy and add to the mental stack, and I could go on and on and on... And we're loosing all that for a temporary boost in playership ? I don't know man. I feel like we're loosing track of the big picture here.
I like motion commands because sometimes my input incompetence leads to me not executing a special when my opponent expected which, in turn, throws them off and sometimes allows me to execute a punish. Also, it feels good when I do pull of that execution under pressure and it produces good results. I feel like the cooldown in original GBVS and the damage nerf in SF6 is fine and ASW really didn't need to change things 😕
If a game is balanced around motion inputs, but has alternative inputs for less skilled players, I think that'll always give the game the most depth. I think most people are freaking out about the granblue news because it sounds like they aren't really going to change anything. Even Fantasy Strike, one of the simplest fighting games EVER, adjusts the way its moves behave to balance how easy they are for experienced players to spam.
I think Granblue in particular is a game where one-button specials are completely fine. The main source of concern about those is typically DPs, but Granblue has air blocking against those, so one button DP does not mean you can never jump. Similar with one button supers, which are also air blockable, and now the game is adding more stuff to spend super meter on, making supers have an opprtunity cost to be used at all. The only possible concern I can think of is charge moves, but the only charge character it had at launch, Charlotta, is probably fine there. Not sure if any of the DLC characters were charge, I only played for a month due to the online. Nobody I tried in the beta was, at least.
What if special moves with motion input are normal speed, while one button special moves are 5-7 frames slower? From testing, motion inputs take about 5-7 frames longer. Could be an interesting idea.. To have the motion input reward feel like what you are doing with the controller could be really satisfying. Changing it's speed or giving other bonuses as well. Classic vs modern input is definitely not the easiest thing to design and balance.
I guess it makes it easier for newcomers to do all the moves however if you're not willing to learn a fireball or DP motion then you're probably not going to be willing to stick around getting bodied and learning. I remember how tough hadokens were when I first tried. I could get like 2 or 3 out of ten in training mode trying as hard as I could. Eventually it became second nature to me. If the devs said ah it's too hard for newcomers let's just not put it in then they would've robbed me of that awesome experience of initially struggling, staying the course and finally succeeding. I'd hate for others to not also get the chance to go through the same thing.
I love how motion inputs always reflect the technique your character is actually doing, like the harder the input the more focus and effort your character is using to actually pull it off, like kof for example and also they always made sense which is really satisfying, like the hadouken makes perfect sense
And the pretzel doesn't. Also FANG had projectiles on down up. Motions also changed between games like Guile double somersault kick. You tacked on things making sense after the fact.
I haven't played GBVs in a while, but if i remember correctly, some characters, like Charlotta, don't even need charge for their charge moves if you do the simple inputs. Now that there's no drawbacks at all, i imagine she becomes at least a bit scarier to move against.
She was one of the characters where choosing between technical and simple inputs wasn't just a matter of execution, it was choosing to use the roll without charge in exchange for a cooldown. The removal of any penalty for technical inputs simply removed strategical depth from the character in addition to normalizing how she feels. As for whether she is scary, she really wasn't in the beta, because she is one of the characters most impacted by the loss of most hard knockdowns, and less importantly because she has terrible Ultimate Skills.
I think its simply not balanced fighting people who are using an entirely different control scheme then you. Controller type is 1 thing but how you play the game changes entirely if you pick Classic or Modern controls, its almost like playing against someone who’s playing a different game than you.
There's a deep dark jail cell within in the deepest, darkest trenches of my soul. In it, I keep my Scrub Goblin. I've been suspecting that he has the key to get out all along because whenever I fight a Modern Control Luke I keep thinking "this is fucking bullshit".
I think it's important to consider and reiterate that those vets started out new too, in much harder to learn games (available resources were much more scarce and inputs weren't nearly as lenient). In this day and age, new players can learn execution as easy as ever. Simple inputs are fine, but erasing motion commands because "it's too hard" is just silly.
Long story short: These games aren't defined by their inputs, but the way in which the inputs affect the game. If you're going to make a fighting game that has simple and old-school inputs, then you have to balance your game around that fact, otherwise one style is just the better option. And forcing the players to just use both simultaneously the way some games do has been shown to just cause its own problems. I agree with you, Mr. Jam. It's just about the game you want to make. I understand developers moving toward simple inputs to make FGs a lot more entry-level and allow for the cool stuff to come out with ease, but then build the game around that system and don't worry about the Classic style. Sure, it might scare off the crowd who don't want to do simple inputs, but if the game is fun they'll get over it.
I think a better version of the point that Fukuhara was trying to make is to ensure that everyone has easy access to every move right out of the gate instead of giving some newcomers a "cheap" advantage simply for having a better _memory_ for motions, which is more of an inherent thing than a honed thing. Or maybe he just didn't want being good at motion-heavy FGs to translate too much to being utterly dominant at GBVSR. Whatever the case, I, like you, can see both sides of the argument and believe there's room for all sorts of fighters for testing different skill sets. Even as all fighters should aim to have decent accessibility options whether they make it part of the "real" game or not.
I get that this may just be a "me" thing, but I've yet to play a game that focused on easy execution that I actually could get into. And most I liked well enough, I just never LOVED. It was the easiest thing in the world for me to drop Power Rangers, that Sirlin fighter based on his card game, and several others I can't even remember the name of as soon as a new fighter came out, and I never looked back.
I think the sole notion of "Motion inputs are too difficult" is only a notion of the devs patronizing and infantilizing their players. Is not that there can not be 1 button specials, is that the reasoning is simply assuming people are dumb. Stuff like a 236 or a [4] 6 is not difficult to use or explain to anybody. Just like aiming in an FPS, the principle is really simple, but you wont see fps communities advocating for computer assisted stuff like cheat style aimbot to be implemented and legalized in their competitive enviroment. I do not think 1 buttons specials are bad, I just thini the devs shouls stop treating their players like idiots incapable of moving a stick from down to right on a PS5 pad.
Actually, you see a lot of arguments for aim assist in FPS games now with the advent of cross play, where controller aim assist gives pretty massive advantages in most of the games its present, to the point where unless you are a truly gifted player it's usually better to play on controller than it is for kb/m. I don't really care for 1 button specials for this exact reason, unless they have really big tradeoffs or nerfs. Execution is a big part of the game, not a hurdle to be skipped past, its part of what makes a lot of games fun to begin with.
I am starting to think that we are not considering the fact that newer controllers are being made terrible for motion inputs. We complained about playing Marvel 3 with a thumbstick but this will be the starting experience of any new player. So I guess this is another consequence of dpads being bad lately.
I just kinda hate that learning motion inputs is seen as some huge hurdle. Like it REALLY is not that difficult, literally just takes some practice if you have never done it.
Any amount of practice really is a considerable hurdle when it comes to getting new players into the genre. The quicker a non-fgc player can feel in control of their character, the quicker they can learn the actual appeal of the game. (That said, I’d still prefer they keep it the classic way lol)
Yes, it doesn't take that long, but the average gamer doesn't want to have to practice motions just to start playing the game. A lot of my casual friends fall off pretty early because they just don't feel like learning inputs just to start playing a character.
@@yasuke267Monster Hunter and Elden Ring required the same exact damn thing and no one complains about those. I don't understand why people act like casuals can't do this shit.
This is what gets me too. The fuss over motion inputs being too hard feels like they're treating new players as utterly incompetent. Most of them could do motion inputs consistently without that much practice!
I agree that balancing is going to be the real problem here (and in any game that has or favours simple controls). Another important issue to keep in mind is that this new version of Granblue is not a new game; it's an "upgrade" of an old one that already had an existing fan base with an accepted play style. It was initially proposed as, in essence, a shiny new version of the old game but with the better netcode that players have been begging for literally since the game initially came out (which was just amplified by the pandemic). So we have a case here of the long term fan base finally getting a feature added to the game they've been wanting for years.. except it's no longer the game they were fans of. If this was GBVS2 it may not be as big a deal, but it's not GBVS2.
I don’t really like simple controls, I genuinely like the skill gaps you find in fighting games. These games aren’t built as casual games, they never have been, it’s a one on one self improvement type of game. Simple inputs cannot fix any of the issues you run into except inputs. If you have no interest in self improvement, these already aren’t the games for you, simple inputs won’t make new players stay.
I have 6 kids and 4 jobs. I don't have the time to practice. I should be able to pick up the controller, close my eyes, and beat you. You're just mad that fighting games aren't being made for fighting game players. They are being made for everyone
Fair point, but gamers have SO MUCH OPTION today that if the FGC wants to be more than a niche genre, there needs to be some compromises. Fair enough there will always be people to play with if you're playing SF or MK, but there is a whole bunch of Discord fighters that would benefit a lot from having more players, and these extra players could be playing if there was a smaller skill gap. Why spend hours practicing an fg and still be bad at it if I can play 10 diferent indie games that are super cheap and pretty good too?
@@Mene0 Compromising on your core audience is never a good idea though. And like so many others said already, execution is only a small part of what separates beginners from veterans. Giving easier access to powerful tools to newbies means those veterans also have easy access to those tools but they also stil have much better understanding of their use. Or even how to properly move around the screen and feel out their opponent - stuff that simple inputs does jack shit to address.
I remember someone countering the "I just want to get to the mind game and decision making part of fighting games" argument with the fact that the delay inherent to motion controls are part of the mind games and decision making. You wanna' go for the easier combo but leave them alive, or the hard combo to seal the win?
Motion inputs are way overrated in my view. I'm not good at fighting games, but I've learned to do motion inputs and can do them comfortably. I've done a lot of tutorials and spent time in training mode to practice combos, blockstrings, +R FRCs, and so on. I understand the satisfaction that comes with executing motion inputs, and I share that satisfaction - I especially love charge inputs. Despite all that, beginning players who are pushed away by motion inputs are reasonable. People saying that anyone who is turned off by motion inputs "wouldn't have kept playing anyways" have, I feel, just forgotten what it felt like to not be able to do the moves. Yes, there are nice things about motion inputs. But it sucks to want to do a basic action with your character and just have nothing happen. Imagine I aim wrong in an FPS and I miss the enemy: I know that I aimed too far to the right, or whatever. The feedback loop is clear. I input a motion wrong and, unless I'm in training mode with input display on, I don't know what went wrong, and nothing comes out. The novice can't explore all the basic possibilities with the character. Consider something like smash - broad popular appeal, high execution at high level play. This is because being unable to wavedash feels very different from being unable to fireball. The novice in a game with simple inputs feels like they try out any basic action that their character can do - now they gotta get good at using those tools. The novice in a game with motion inputs feels like they have to overcome an arbitrary wall to even start experimenting with all the possibilities of the character. Again, there's good things about motion inputs. But it's not unreasonable to contend that they're outweighed by the bad in many cases.
Yeah my main gripe like you mentioned, is that the strength has to be modeled around the 1 button access. Some supers like Lukes level 1 almost make it so if he even has 1 meter in burnout hes not really worried. Also the DPs requiring the motion will influence my gameplay, I'll be more likely to jump or do something a little risky if I know there is that barrier, along with having to hold forward for multiple directions to input it. Single button just feels like its able to get around some of the things in the system that are a bit scarier in classic.
Not sure if it would be a good change, but maybe make certain modern inputs like dp a light version. Still very good, but lacks damage and combo potential. But, you can obviously still do the motion input, and maybe make it so if you do, a press the different attack buttons, it pulls out the corresponding version.
The idea that SF6 almost didn't have classic controls at one point is crazy to me
Absolutely insane
Would be great
Having both is the perfect compromise
Fighting games should just be turn based. I lack dexterity and reaction times. I don't have time to learn how to play or develop my reactions. What about lil ol me?
It really worries me for SF7. I've pretty much made my peace with SF7 just removing Classic entirely. I'll still play it, but I'll be sad.
I just hope motion inputs stay as an option. The phasing out of motion inputs is what I was concerned about when simple inputs started gaining more traction. I actually like how motion inputs feel and I want them to stay.
I agree 100%, and I can use Modern controls for the characters that I'm bad at. It's a Win/Win there for me, and hopefully, for a lot of players.
Same. I also really dislike having to use multiple extra buttons just to do my specials.
You'll probably grow out of preferring them if all games go the way of Granblue Rising. I love motions too but I know if every game just let me do 1 button specials and there was no downside for doing so then I would eventually stop bothering with inputs entirely.
I play Lily in SF6 so the temptation to switch to Classic already exists for me. Only thing that has stopped me is the loss of certain normals and the 20% reduction on one button specials.
@@SomniaCE Nah. I'd probably stop playing fighting games tbf.
@@SomniaCE Exactly. I prefer motion inputs too but I'm not going to choose the obviously weaker control option just because I'm used to it and it feels better.
For all the tutorials added to fighting games in recent years I don't think any of them has taken a crack at explaining how to do motion inputs really. There are a few very common mistakes beginners do, and if they're just addressed somewhere I think it would become clear how small that hurdle really is.
EXACTLY. Poor tutorials is really whats been a thorn in the side of fighting games for all this time. So many people I know have had the capacity to do DP motions but simply couldnt understand what they were meant to do because of bad tutorials. Once I spelt it out for them theyre suddenly nailing it. I think modern controls is a massive overstep of a solution and causes more harm than good
that's where SF6 comes in with world tour, it's basically a giant +16hrs tutorial and best of all, it does include minigames for motion and charge inputs
@@cerdi_99 Their heart was in the right place with what they did in World Tour, but they need to iterate on it once or twice more before they stick the landing. They were going for Karate Kid chores to teach you how to play the game, and they only kind of managed to do that.
I remember BlazBlue's tutorials doing a pretty solid job at explaining motion inputs. Continuum Shift's tutorial is actually what taught me how to do them in the first place.
I'll always remember picking up Strive and one of the tuto mission dropping all my character's (Giovanna) specials on me in one go. That shit got me stuck for like a week of turning on the game, trying to do the mission, failing to do the 4 moves back to back for like an hour, quitting and back at it the next day.
I've stuck with it and managed to power through (with some googling on tricks to do that damned Z-motion) but god, never before had I seen a tutorial of all things feeling like it was precision designed to make me quit the game.
I love how motion inputs feel, even with non fighting games with motion inputs such as Castlevania SotN.
I believe that granblue (original) had a good compromise to maintain this and project L looks good given the amount of complexity and variety the rest of mechanics have.
I'm hopeful that input motions stay in future games, I can't imagine Guilty Gear without them.
Imagine single input Behemoth Typhoons 🤮
On the other end, I invested 20 hours into GGS and I have carpal tunnel. I gave up on the game because doing the super move half moon forward input was impossible for me to do naturally without killing my hands. They lost a player because of that, and if you say "well we dont need you anyways" yes, you do. Fighting games have the unfortunate feature of living and dying on its community. The more homogenized gamers become with preferences the harder itll become for these people to keep playing other new players.
Modern controls are a good thing, and being nerfed because fuck modern users feels bad. Making them the same just because doesnt work, but we need a new better work around to make both options work.
@@GamezPDD I agree with you, quite a bit! But if you dont mind me asking; would a all button controller (i.e hitbox etc) be beneficial for you? Just asking out of curiosity
@@armorgiraffeThis is something I was thinking too; Melee’s equivalent of leverless controllers was, in large part, created because people were developing arthritis and other hand problems from playing the game and wanted a way to play it again, and now they are able to.
@@GamezPDD I don't think most people want modern controls nerfed because "fuck modern users." Like Sajam says in the video, there are real, important balance reasons modern inputs need to be made weaker than traditional inputs.
I'm all for fighting games becoming more inclusive, and growing the community, but I don't think every game needs to cater to the biggest audience possible. Older, more complex and difficult games than GGST still have dedicated communities because of rollback updates and Fightcade. There's room in the FGC for both mainstream accessibility and more niche, difficult games.
Motion inputs can be an integral part of a character's gameplay design and in making characters feel distinct to control. In arcana heart for example, the character yoriko, who fights with a demon cat broomstick thing, can buff her demon (which is crux of her gameplan) for a long duration by inputing a pentagram, or for a much shorter duration by inputting a triangle. Not only do these inputs make yoriko feel very unique to control, but they are also thematically appropriate and add an extra layer of strategy that a yoriko player always needs to consider.
I've always appreciated Pocket Rumble's simple solution to this problem: specials are one button, but you have to hold that button for a handful of frames. This mimics the time it takes to do a motion input, increasing the time it takes to get the move to come out in neutral, but still allowing for the move to come out immediately when used as a reversal. I'd definitely like to see SF6 adopt this to create better parity between modern and classic.
How long was the hold time tho? The topic is so complicated. If you make it fast, like 2 frames per input, lets say cammy lv3 , it would still be insane, if there is no damage reduction. Thats why i dont want it, there is no perfect solution. Either you build your gsme from the ground up with simple inputs , or you do not do them at all. On the other hand, i like that the meta is more interesting, if you play against a good modern maris/cammy/luke , once they have lv3 you cannot do certain moves, that you COULD risk against classic, because you know that they can easily react with one button. But i dont like the inconsistencies in general, AND i dont like that the playerbase gets split and suddenly hate emerges against modern players and even against calssic players xD (i really saw that in a diaphone video)
Can I just hold a ton of buttons down at the same time and buffer everything?
This is a really good solution, which would require some testing but sounds good nonetheless.
I don’t know why motion inputs are seen as something that needs a solution. There’s no problem and they aren’t hard to do.
You can just increase the startup frames as well or delay the invul frames
I completely understand the balancing reasons to have motion inputs, and I get why people who are totally comfortable with them might really want them to stay, but I feel like the barrier they represent to "new" players (read: anyone who isn't extremely experienced with the genre) is understated here. I've been playing fighting games on and off for like 5 years and I STILL struggle a lot with anything more complicated than a quarter-circle, and even those quarter-circles aren't 100% consistent. Every time I lose a match because I knew what I wanted to do but fucked up the input multiple times it makes me want to stop playing the game. I don't want to spend hundreds of hours drilling DP inputs just to be able to consistently DP instead of accidentally quarter-circling half the time, I just want to be able to use the goddamn moves I'm trying to use. I think this is a nontrivial aspect of why Smash is the most popular fighting game - despite all the insane technical depth to stuff like movement, there's virtually no technical barrier to using all of the moves on each character on command.
You can say "oh it's okay for new players to be bad, let them be new", but when "new players" is like 90% of the potential audience, and overcoming that hurdle takes a lot of dedicated effort that almost none of them actually want to put in, it represents a HUGE barrier to entry for the genre and to any given game. If a game wants to appeal to an audience outside of the normal FGC niche, simple inputs is a very good way to do that.
100%
@@iminyourwalls8309 If casual players and newbies aren't turned away by the execution barrier, the game will attract and retain more casuals and newbies, and then they'll have more people at their skill level to play against.
I'm not saying every game needs simple inputs. Not every game is for everyone and making a game that's specifically targeted towards experienced FGC people is fine. But if your goal is to make a game that appeals to non-FGC players, simple inputs are a good way to work towards that goal. I assume this is why Project L is being built with simple inputs - they want to attract the biggest audience possible, and most of their established LoL/LoR/Arcane audience doesn't play fighting games.
@@iminyourwalls8309not really. Fighting games aren’t just about motion inputs. It’s controlling the neutral. Pressuring your opponent in the corner. Creating mental stacks.
Motion inputs are the first (and largest barrier) for new players to get past before they can really start playing the game.
What modern control in SF6 is allow new players to be alleviated off the first barrier to allow them to actually focus on playing the game rather than learning to be at a skill level in which they can start playing it.
I don’t think modern should be the only option (depending on the game. But I also think the hate is overstated. It allows more options, and both motion and modern inputs provide different things. One isn’t necessarily better (in most cases, depending on how it’s designed) but they are different.
It's important to note that it's not JUST being bad. It's also that being bad in a way that isn't fun. If you can't land motion inputs in a fighting game with some level of consistency, you will repeatedly find yourself in situations where you made the right call and the game just did not do what you told it to and then you fail and you lose. And no, the game's not broken, it's not unfair, you could learn those specials and get better. But it feels bad.
And the lack of intuitive feedback makes it worse. If you can't dribble in basketball, you will know, in a general sense, what went wrong, even if you know what the right thing is. As a new player, motion inputs are a lot more opaque than that. You can do what feels like the same input twice and have it work the first time and fail the second.
I just get frustrated because I don't like how neutral changes when people start reaction dragon punching everything. Just getting jump-ins is one thing, but it feels they can react to anything
I think this is a great over-exaggeration to something that's fundamentally more nuanced.
Drive impact can be a single button input. Yet even though drive impact is on paper very reactable, pros very regularly fail to react to it in time.
It changes risk/reward in a meaningful way yes (i.e it makes it easier to react), but to say it changes neutral into "you can react to anything" is just untrue.
@@sas911 I have a modern ken friend that literally reacts to EVERY Marisa armored/charge move with EX DP. It's definitely a thing.
This. Playing against people who just hold back with their finger on the special button isn't fun. Is it OP? No. Is it broken? No. It just makes the game boring and I personally don't like it.
@@sas911 That's a whole lotta words just to say "technically they can't react to everything but it just makes it easier", which is what the problem is. You can 100% feel it when you are fighting someone using modern controls.
Are you playing the version of SF6 where your console explodes if you try to block?
He doesn't 'react', he's preemptively stuffing you. You must have a tell or a string, or a range, that you always throw out that move. If you consistently cancel into armour, Ken will always cancel into DP. Let's be real Ken will always cancel into Ex DP, I know because I'm a Ken, but try baiting and blowing him up for it. To bait it, instead of cancelling into armour, cancel into, block! A DP bait is like 60 precent with resources, level 1.
My friend is a Marisa, I play Ken, and the match up is gross. Lots of perfects either way. A lot of fun!
Babe wake up, new discussion over one button specials by Sajam just dropped
To me I’ve always preferred motions simply cause they give the designer more options for the characters move list. There are just more opportunities with motion + button then one of the 4 cardinal directions plus a button. But even with saying that, there are plenty of games that are great with 1 button specials cause it’s designed with that in mind. It all comes down to what type of game they want to make.
I'm glad someone else gets the other reasons why motion inputs exist besides balancing. It's frustrating that all these discussions boil down to balancing and ignoring any other reasoning or intricacies to adding motions. It's reductive Toolbox characters like Chipp and Ibuki could not exist without using motion inputs to handle all of their moves. You could make characters that are similar to them like one character in Fantasy Strike but that's NOT the same character and would arguably feel watered down to people going from those two to a the other.
@@kholdkhaos64ray11 I would like to point out that Tekken has got a movelists that looks like a short essay, and while they do have some motion inputs, a lot of character don't have many motion inputs (some characters are exceptions to this, I know), and while it's a lie to say Tekken has 0 or easy execution, there is ways to do things like Chipp/Ibuki without motion inputs.
@@DerpyPloo Tekken is a 3D game that has completely different design hurdles than 2D games. They even have to make strings and context/position sensitive moves to make them work the way they want. Hell a lot of the "moves" are essentially just command normals and target combos from 2D games anyways. They also limit the amount of movement you have compared to 2D games because of the 3D aspect. I don't see how citing them works in this
There are ways to do characters like Chipp and Ibuki without motion inputs but you aren't playing the same character at that point. That's like saying playing Geiger is the exact same as playing Guile.
Even SF6 players are separating modern characters from Classic versions because they play so different
@@kholdkhaos64ray11 This isn't true honestly. There's many ways to adjust direction + button to give depth to toolbox characters. Such as double button/triple button + direction and cutting down on the amount of the differing move per weight of the buttons. This may not be easily feasible in the current state of GBVS+R but in future games with simpe inputs you could have up to (3 buttons * 3directions + (3 two button combos * 3 directions) + 3 three button combo * 3 direction) I'm not counting in air buttons or any button plus up.
@@DerpyPloo I agree on the Tekken part, but I will also add thought that many of tekkens moves function more like command normals or strings/gatlings than a typical special move.
I think games built for one button specials are fine but may need to rethink some of the genre conventions. The DP gets brought up a lot, and it's easy to understand why. With one button it comes out as an anti air too fast, but add too much start up and it becomes an unreliable reversal.
But anti air and reversal don't need to be the same button. Even within the realm of motion inputs, Gear's Anji splits that across multiple special moves, as do several parry and air grab characters.
Exactly, the motion inputs balance so much and inform the character. Charge moves needing you to hold back, dp being objectively faster when moving forward, supers needing longer inputs etc.
Huh, it's almost like motion inputs have been the staple for so long because they WORK
Having to do a motion instead of a button is a 2 frame difference. Unless a motion is very, very long, the time to input it doesn't balance the moves.
Funny you mention Anji, too, since his "DP" (and pin, and command jump) are literally just a single button after inputting Spin2Win and his best anti-airs are single buttons.
Anti-air and reversal being the same *move* is what's bad when you're playing modern flowchart kens, not modern control itself.
That conversation reminds me of how super smash creates execution barriers everywhere else, so the one-button moves have a lot of opportunities to whiff or fail to combo as expected. It's definitely a lot trickier to switch games to simple inputs than it would seem at first.
I love the modern controls in sf6. Matter fact I switch from modern to classic depending on the character. I really hope motions inputs doesnt disappear in the future, they're an integral part of the fighting game experience.
They really aren't. Bunch of games exist without motion inputs. It's just legacy holdover.
@@seokkyunhong8812 Thats your opinion
@@seokkyunhong8812you just watched a whole video explaining why this isn't the case. Bait used to be believable.
That's funny dribbling used to be considered cheating and not in the spirit of the game when basketball first released.
Main issue I believe that Sajam brings up is the game has been built around it from the ground up. Basically only new IPs
I think it doesn’t really fit in street fighter. I think the idea of having both in the long term is just convoluted and problematic. It’s going to be a ongoing balancing act on top of balancing everything else.
And I believe it’s adding other issues on top of all of this with accessibility controls and input shortcuts (new option select bug)
I would have never picked up SF6 if it didn't have something that helped me get into it. I grew up playing fighting games at home as a kid, but I've always wanted to play more fighting games online. But having to learn inputs that go beyond the standard set of SF inputs (quarter circles, double down, charges, DP) was a huge barrier in a lot of games, even if its a game I theoretically would like and enjoy. I don't particularly _enjoy_ the motion inputs for fighting games; some people love it but I think I'd rather get good at timing, neutrals, footsies and chaining/labbing attacks together. Because modern and world tour is there I actually bought the game, sank in time in the lab and combo trials, climbed ranks and have hundred hours into it.
I dunno, most people talking about Modern vs. Classic rarely ever bring up modern controls STILL has manual inputs for stuff, and the one-button input for specials has to be particularly selected for balance reasons -- I can't do some really good combos because I don't have the manual input version of it. Supers is probably another conversation, but in my experience the 80% damage scaling on raw has been the difference between me confirming a win or not.
I'd rather have the choice still be there but if it is killing the player expression in the game (as people bring up one button DP all the time), then the devs should just consider what goes into the one-button. Don't put a DP as a one button, or make the supers do something different if you use the quick input (less positive frames, don't knock down, etc.)
@@FeresRainwhisker This is the question I have been asking people. Do you care about playing or do care about winning? Because most people say it’s playing but then if you were to have a 50% dmg debuff they think that is too much. So which is it?
It also allows you to do certain special moves without having the balancing method of the inputs like he mentions in the video. Like DP or sonic boom where you have to press forward for some frames with national inputs or charging. In general it’s just too hard to have both in my opinion. If you go back and look at any game with grooves / styles is just a nightmare long term with the game. It’s too hard to balance. That is why they should of just thought of assesabilty and made the frames / dmg much worse as a stepping stone not a potential replacement. Or make everyone use modern controls.
I really think it should be nerfed more because it absolutely does detract from the core experience that is original street fighter / certain gameplay.
@@TheKizersoze13 This is the reason there is a team to balance the game. Of course there should be a trade-off between difficulty and reward. If luke's target combo did 50% of your bar, it wouldn't be fair, but if it did 5%, even though its really easy to use, there's no point using it as it isn't competitive. This is the task of balancing modern vs classic.
There probably is a few issues with it, this is the first street fighter to ever be released with any form of modern controls, it's not going to be perfect first try. Majority of high level play is still played on classic from what i've seen, and me and my friends have finally been able to play street fighter on fairly even grounds because of modern controls. They're veterans with great technical input and experience, so I still lose 90% of games against them even with modern inputs, but the important part is that I'm losing because they're playing better than me, it doesn't feel like im losing because either A). I know what I need to do to punish but haven't spent months if not years practicing the muscle memory for the input, or B). when given the opportunity to punish, and I know I can punish, I don't have a combo built into muscle memory to let out on a moments notice like they do. If I am meant to anti air or punish with a combo, I can do that now, I am not gatekept from having fun with my friends until I've spent months or years practicing all the clunky buttons, which makes me want to keep playing and improving!
Classic inputs are fine for the veterans who have used them their whole lives, and these veterans are the only people who are complaining about modern, so the community needs to consider whether they want to keep the joy of fighting games to themselves while the community shrinks, or modernise it and expand it to the wider audience so that everyone can enjoy them. SF6 already made that decision, hence the "modern" inputs.
Even if this changes the balance of the game, and the meta in which people tackle different situations, we shouldn't be afraid of change, fighting game players have always been told to just adapt and git gud, so what's different here?
@@billysimcoe755 This is on my phone so it might be full of mistakes.
let’s start for the top. Glad more people are playing the game. That is cool. Most importantly glad Capcom is making more money so they can continue with this game and Hopefully make others. But I think people are missing the point of Sajam video and my comment completely.
The point he makes and I also stated is that SF is balanced around classic control inputs. The commands / normals have been balanced around 20 years with those inputs in mind. Having the simplified inputs leads to a bunch of things that are just about impossible to balance like perfect flash kicks / Walking 720s / instant supers
If you think about any other game where someone has 5-20 years experience and knowledge you would think they should be better at the game. Have you ever thought it’s weird that someone who has never really played before can all of sudden be very competitive to someone who has been playing forever. I know people always want a easy way out and it makes sense. Game is easier / reward is easier so it makes people happy. But doing modern should yield less results, you are doing less. THE MAIN ISSUE is the DMG and character balance with modern. Certain characters are much better with it because of the things I stated earlier and part of the balance mechanic was removed normals as well (not random but not 100% either).
Next potential issue is the movement of character / position doing thing that are impossible for classic to do. Again not that is a nail on the coffin and makes the game unplayable but with that in mind it’s going to take way longer / a different style of balance then they have ever done before. So more potential for errors or poor balance. On top it looks like they are committed to 1 year balance cycles so if its wrong people have to deal with it (casuals are not used to that).
This potential issue also makes matches less interesting / potentially boring because it takes reactions out of the equation most of the time when watching / playing matches. Yes when you are playing you can execute but over the long run you won’t get the same satisfaction from learning the skill. Moreover when watching matches it’s not impressive when someone is able to have a crazy reaction.
Don’t have a issue with modern controls but I agree with Sajam is SF is a odd choice for them because of the history / inputs / pacing / mental stack. Other types of games are better choices in my opinion and other styles of games are already using similar control types.
@@TheKizersoze13I think SF is probably the best choice from a financial and dev standpoint.
Not only is it like the top 3 fighters (I think it’s SF, MK and Tekken), but has a huge social standing for the genre in public.
This means they’ll have a far larger audience to test it with, and also have the budget and dev size and skill to effectively learn and develop it.
From a gameplay standpoint, not so much. Even for motion inputs, it’s always been relatively easy and simple on that side.
But for a new mechanic, that requires lots of thoughts and consideration, probably the best choice.
It would be a bit difficult with MK cause while 2D, character wise and their moves, doesn’t strictly follow the traditional things. Like sub-zero and scorpion have traits of a shoto, but also lack in many areas of that archetype but has many different things instead.
Now with new modern players being able to beat veteran classic, I’m sure there is still some balancing required (cause it’s new), but I don’t think it’s all from just modern being easier and at least below tournament champ level, op; but may just be a case of modern players thought processes being different due to them not needing to think about motion inputs. This means, a dp changes from ‘should I try and predict with dp? Can I execute it in time?’ To ‘predict and punish with do’.
The fact they have this strong tool easily to use can be something other players can consider. ‘Oh, he’s a modern so he’ll probably try and react or predict with a dp to punish. Let me try and bait or try something else’.
Because the thought process changes, it means the classic player in turn has to change their though process as well when fighting them.
Like I said, modern isn’t exactly balanced yet (luke…) but I don’t think it’s that bad, so far at least.
A great example of motion inputs balancing a move is Kazuya’s EWGF in Smash Ultimate. Imagine if Electric was his neutral B. He wouldn’t have a reason to use any other ground move. It combos into itself and into death.
They made the move extremely easy to do consistently in Smash though, way easier than in Tekken. And a move being OP due to it's execution has historically been a shit way of balancing things because people WILL get good at doing the execution and then what's the downside? Vatista is a blight Uni despite being gated by her execution requirements. And then what happens if the character isn't worth the execution requirement?
@@Aregulargameplayerits fine as long as the execution is hard enough. Dont know about smash, but ewgf is probably the best move in the game in tekken, but using it to its full potential is extremely difficult to the point that pro players will usually opt for easier options. In theory, you can punish any -13 move with kaz pewgf. In practice this is almost impossible to do consistently, its a level of difficulty above even another notorious execution-locked thing (kazuya counterhit df2 pewgf). These things are OP but extremely cool when they go off in a tournament setting. You can see the culmination of 1000s hours of practice in a single moment in a way you can't when everything is easy but balanced. And its not like kazuya is winning tournaments. Im not in favor of taking out cool and hype things like this just for balance sake. Especially when you can balance in other ways to mitigate.
@@Aregulargameplayer I would say this is a bad take; you should never assume people will always get good 'enough' to do something with perfect consistency. I've seen Daigo drop basic combos, seen props fuck up super commands under pressure. Yes, they are usually freak events, but they CAN happen. And that doesn't even come CLOSE to how hard ewgf is to do.
Your argument is almost facile to break because all anyone has to do is point at the fact that literal pros don't just wind god fist people to death, in fact nobody ever has in a tournament setting. It's physically possible, and it's coded into the game... it just hasn't happened, mostly because to be a pro is to choose consistency over risk and trying to infinite ewgf is incredibly risky.
And why is it risky....? Becuase even the best in the world have a very high chance of fucking it up.
@@Aregulargameplayerthere are limits to the 'players will just learn it' side
Anything thats a just frame input will be a risk even with the best execution
@@AregulargameplayerGranblue ALONE completely dismantles this argument. i play vira in granblue, all inputs are considerably easier. Every super is just 236236, the simple input for super is 236. Despite playing fighting games for over 2 years now i will ALWAYS use the simple input for supers bc it’s just more reliable. nobody does the heavy DP motion except to end a combo bc it’s quite simply much easier to do a direction than a motion. Yes, people will learn and practice doing hard stuff. THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF TRAINING MODE. FOR YOU TO GET GOOD AT EXECUTING. It’s why the little lab goblins know the ins and outs of their character, they practice more than anyone else, and they know exactly when they can use their hard tools and will actively put themselves in situations to make using it easier and even stronger. The problem isn’t that these hard tools are too strong, it’s that there’s nothing to discourage them from USING it. The appropriate concern is that other characters simply may not have enough strength to deal bc they’re balanced around being easier to play.
I feel like Leon Masey's video on Motion Inputs fits into this discussion perfectly with how he talked about Risk Vs Reward and inputs
He used the example of what to do when someone jumps in on you with a jumping attack in Third Strike. The three universal options are
1. Block
2. Crouching Heavy Punch
3. DP
Blocking is the easiest, but doesn't stop the opponents offense
Crouching Heavy Punch can stop their offense and do a bit of damage, but requires some timing and also returns them to full screen, resetting the neutral
DP requires the most commitment and has the strictest timing for preforming the input, but is the most punishing for the enemy since it does the most damage and can even put you in advantage.
And all of these options are balanced by their inputs. The simpliest give you the least amount of advantage, and the more complicated give you the most. But if DP's have the same input as Crouching Heavy Punch, then that completely invalidates C+HP as an anti air option, leaving no point to use it at all.
You can use the argument of "I recognized the jump in, why am I being punished for not being able to do the DP motion in time??!?!" But the same could also be said for "I saw the enemy first in a FPS, why am I being punished for not clicking on his head fast enough??!?" I'm not directly saying "Get gud", but I am saying that if you want to get better at a game, it's better to work with it and practice than to say "I can't do this, make it easier for me" But that's just my side and take on it.
Strive launched with no one button specials and I didn't hear anyone complaining that it didn't have them, so you know it isn't actually a big deal, it's just a mental hurdle, not to mention no one is going to do the slower motions when there's no upside to doing them. Motions are just strictly worse than one button moves
You didn't hear people complaining because the people deterred by motion inputs didn't bother to pick the game up. Street Fighter 6 did in one month of sales what it took Strive two years to do.
@@gamelord12 But it's freakin' Street Fighter and a solid, gorgeous looking game with plenty of SP content. GGSt is anime-style (visually), comes from a series known as very complex, fast-paced anime-fighter (nowadays called airdashers) with heavy rock themes all over.
You can't really compare the two since they started from completely different places.
I complain that I can't do the super input in Strive all the time. Don't know how you didn't hear it, really? ;-)
@@NaoyaYami I know that Strive had positive word of mouth from all sorts of places for being far easier to learn than its predecessors, and my friends who would very much be into the heavy metal rock themes still noped out because the motions are huge deterrent. But they all gave Street Fighter 6 the time of day and had a great time on modern controls. "Freakin' Street Fighter" 4 and 5 didn't convince them to pick up the controller.
Honestly, I wish they did, though :/. Unlike SF6 whiff punishes are a lot harder and one button DP's have the same reward as counterhit 6P aside from higher damage. And most of the supers designed for whiff punishing have low damage (minus HPB). I don't see players having that much bigger advantage because of how easy it is to get a hard knockdown + c.S pressure.
one thing that gets forgotten is the beauty of strict execution in high stress situations like tourneys.
Evo moment #36 would not be the same if Daigo could just hold for parry and perform super with 1 button.
1 button specials does not mean low-execution
@@junkmail2223yes it does?
@@bloomallcaps ever played melee?
....or dive kick.
The coolest part of fighting games to me, when I first noticed them as a kid,was the ability to consistently pull off motion inputs and combos WHILE ALSO having good strategy.
I never thought of them as separate things, just all apart of the game. It’s crazy to me that people think they are separate now.
I mean tbf people do have different things they do or don't like about fighting games, but yeah that's a pretty popular opinion
I could also be a cheeselord for a sec and talk about how things like crosscuts and fancy charging can feel like practicing your katas after you stole the secret scrolls that the master keeps under his pillow.. Learning and discovering and 🤢 _growth_ are part of fighting games
Couldn't have really said it better myself.
As a more casual player I definitely like simple inputs more, but I can at least realize that motion inputs have a place and shouldn't be removed entirely, especially from legacy series. That said, I kind of wonder why they didn't just cut motion inputs from Rising entirely if they were willing to go this far.
One reason devs might be pushing for simple controls is the rise of hitbox/leverless controllers because of how fast they're able to perform motion inputs compared to other controller types. You can get 3f dp's reliably and consistently, stuff like EWGF becomes trivial on a leverless because timing the stick to the button was what made it a difficult input. By making inputs simple for all controllers they create parity between all controller types
that's a good reason for them to do that, but i strongly doubt that it actually is why. i could maybe see it being in the discussion for capcom because of how in tune they are with competitive stuff in general, but most devs (especially japanese ones) tend to ignore things like that until it's impossible to do so. i think largely because most of the discussion of the topic is outside of japan. the melee community has been having a lot of discussion about this for a while now about modding certain things in the game to be easier or even just more consistent so that people dont have to use $300 modded controllers to have optimal gameplay
that and idk they want more people to play their games?
Yeah i think that had something to do with it. People were complaining so much about hitboxes, and the devs found a solution
I remember playing rising thunder. As soon as I switched to the shoto character I got a 100% winrate as it was almost impossible to lose with a single button DP to whiff punish and anti-air, and a one button tatsu to easily beat fireballs. The game turned into 20% footsies and 80% reaction checks. Motions play a part in my personal enjoyment of fighters as the variance between pressing a button, doing command normals and inputting special moves all contribute to a gameplay flow I enjoy.
They also play a big part in giving more room for balancing characters. DP's are the easiest example, but most moves are balanced a lot around how they are inputted.
I like one button specials for purely an accessibility standpoint. My cousins loves fighting games but can only play with one hand because he suffered a stroke. The advent of one button specials is a trend I love to see for people like my cousin to at least have less of a sheer disadvantage.
Good! I’m glad people with accessibility issues are able to enjoy the game.
People need to take the time to learn the modern matchup of each character. It’s basically another character to play against.
brolylegs plays with his mouth and even he doesnt use modern controls
Anti airing the opponent with a motion input DP feels so good
It really does! It's only something I've started to do in recent times (and inconsistently at that), but when you do succeed it's incredibly satisfying. Comparing that to when I was doing 1-button anti-air DPs in GBVS, that was fun the first 10 times as a novelty but it quickly became stale and unsatisfying in the end.
The example on Dribbling was on point, honestly you can simplify some hard inputs but not remove them, also there was a drawback on doing so, then you reward people who execute them better and those who don't still can use them anyway and play with a small disadvantage since they are on "Easy Mode". Honestly I won't be touching GBVS never again, this is the lowest they could reach, go get casuals and live by them if you take that path as a developer/IP. It's like saying "Now we removed assisted AIM on FPS and will have AUTO-Aim because you know... it is more important to decide who you shot first in some situations"
The fps example is starting to happen with crossplay and controller auto aim
They did change cooking though.
Chef knives, mandolins, spirallizers, hell food processors. A lot of the manual skill that used to be required to be a good cook either no longer exists or has been drastically simplified.
Knowledge , instincts, and experience still separate good cooks from amazing cooks but the manual dexterity barrier to entry has been drastically lowered.
this gotta be the most bizarre comparison and i see where youre coming from but i think its bit different in fighting games since youre going head to head with one another and if a player using classic controls can react faster but still lose to a modern control player purely because they have to do less i think thats a bit unfair. its not really about how many routes and how much tech you know, more about being able to react at a robotic level which straight cancels gameplay and nuance
@@Gr3s0n1should've picked modern then. You can't complain about the food processor chopping faster than you when you refused the option in the first place.
It's obvious Capcom has put consideration into designs for specials with the introduction of Rashid. His heavy mixer not being frame 1 invincible is a big reason I don't play him. But it's entirely understandable. As having an invincible anti air that hits both sides. On a qcf input would be too strong. Crazy to think classic would ever have been removed
I love how one of the arguments from the GBVSR director is "there are lots of games with motion controls so we're removing them". But precisely, GBVS was a great way to learn motion inputs to then play these other games. Now that there isn't any incentive to do so, beginners playing GBVSR will have a harder time transitioning to other games in the genre.
having the restrictions for a move be built into how its input is something i really enjoy because how good you are at inputting that move determines how frequently you can use it, even though you'll always be somewhat limited you kind of grow with moves and that's always been a fun part of fighting games for me. i think the inverse of having the game decide how often you can do a move with cooldowns instead is just lame in comparison, it was interesting in granblue when you had agency over how long that cooldown would be but now you don't even have that, so it just sounds restrictive in comparison to motion input specials.
My takeaway is that they had already solved this in the first game. I don't get the angle that it reduces the hurdle when players will be forced to face motion inputs in almost any othwr game. The previous game having both with mechanical differences gave beginners a reason to eventually learn motion inputs.
Because having a place to learn the actual mechanics and nuances of the game makes it easier to learn other games down the line. Play a simple game to learn fighting game nuance and have fun as a beginner. Then the hurdle to learning a game with harder commands is easier.
@@hteety But then people will complain that any non-simple FG will prevent them from playing because theyd have to "learn those stupid archaic inputs" to even start...
Sajam, Max and few others proven multiple times that you don't need to learn optimal (or even decent) combos to start "playing" fighting games but idiots who were never interested in the genre in the first place will ignore that and complain anyway.
@@NaoyaYamiit's because Sajam and Max are too deep in and completely out of touch with the casual base.
They don't know what it's like to be outside looking in anymore.
@@seokkyunhong8812 Or maybe it's because outsiders are incapable of realizing what fighting games are about? Its definitiely not flashy combos and specials.
Even if you give those outsiders easy access to those, they will stll get bodied against anyone even somewhat proficient in fighting games (I'm talking just beating hard-level CPU here). Doesn't matter if they can throw out instant-specials left and right if opponent won't let them land it (if they let them come out in the first place). Simple inputs do absolutely nothing about that issue.
If Cygames wanted simple inputs in their game - fine, that's their right. It's just that their excuse for that makes zero sense.
@@NaoyaYamibut it is. Optimized gameplay is 100% about consistent and optimized combos and special. If you can't do TOD with Sparking in DBFZ right now, you are absolutely sunk. You absolutely need to know how to do optimal damage in SF6 because drive rush into low damage stuff hurts your overall gameplan strongly. You absolutely need optimal set ups or high damage depending on character to win in GGST.
You absolutely need optimized gameplan from the start if you want to play fighting games otherwise you will lose every match.
i was personally disappointed by the change just because i felt the way granblue balanced its special moves really elegantly with the cooldowns
I agree. Having an option for instant 1 button DP was a nice backup, but if you couldn't capitalize on it, you were left without a strong defensive tool (gods forbid you wasted simple EX DP...). Simple supers were still plenty powerful but did reward those that went the extra mile to learn proper input to really bring out of them (especially Djeeta's rekka SSBA).
They're literally trying to fix a problem that does not exist. Not like it matters, GBV died pretty quickly and I imagine this one will do the same.
@@johndelanie3649 Seems you are speaking with your ass, not your mouth since all that comes out is crap.
You have no idea why GBFV died, right?
Besides "dead" is not a proper term, since game holds somewhat decent playerbase and it's not hard to find matches via discord. There more recent games that are more dead than GBFV (DNF Duel and Type Lumina come to mind immediatelly).
Excellent video. Love the dribble analogy
But the solution for people who don't like dribbling isn't to remove it from basketball; it's to play a game without dribbling, which is what people are doing.
Bad at dribbling isn't causing you to eat dirt. It's a piss poor analogy, because a bad dribble is still a dribble. Input barrier means you just don't play.
@@seokkyunhong8812 Being bad at dribbling means you are going to suffer constant turnovers, either from penalties or the defense snatching the ball from you. Being bad at special moves just means you have to rely more on normals and throws. With the former you are nearly trapped. With the latter you still have options.
As a Goldlewis main since he came out I can genuinely say hes my favorite Fighting Game character of all time. He is probably the most intuitive control scheme of any character you literally swing the stick in the way you want the behemoth to go and it maps directly to the motion input you're doing its awesome. If we take motion inputs away we never have another Goldlewis again.
I tried playing Power Rangers and it was just so boring I couldnt get into it with the 1 button special moves. Project L announcing simple inputs is the whole reason im less excited for the game I was super hyped until they announced that. Ill still give it a try when it comes out but I don't think ill have a good time without motion controls.
You can just divert BT to two buttons and direction for swing. The idea that GL can't exist outside of motion input is ridiculous.
@@seokkyunhong8812his point is not that goldlewis wouldn't be possible with simple inputs, but that the 1:1 correspondence between the motion the player inputs and the the path the character's attack travels would be lost
@@kumonojuza5583and that doesn't matter.
Moves are mostly arbitrary things. There's no reason for GL's gun or drone to be S button moves instead of P or K, but it is. Why do both forward projectile moves have completely opposite directions for inputs? Why is the laser a k move when the other security spending moves are a motion + S?
It's a meaningless thing.
@@seokkyunhong8812 The harmony between the motion input's PHYSICAL MOTION on the player's controller would be completely lost. Obviously you could 1:1 Map Goldlewis to just direction inputs but it wouldn't be the same.
@@seokkyunhong8812 It's all arbitrary. The game would be the same if all we had on screen were hitboxes, no need for the fancy character art and throwing out punches. Except that that motion is pleasing to the eye, and makes intuitive sense such that you can understand the basics of what's happening on screen without ever even playing the game. It looks cool man, and better yet, it *feels cool to do*.
Really good take Sajam, glad to see someone analys it in depth. Very nuanced.
I know it's the nature of all discourse now but i wish people in support of simple inputs understood how to justify themselves better. I remember the original thread and how most people in the replies were of the opinion that motion inputs where just arbitrary gatekeeping from veteran players. That sort of misconception builds animosity from the start and you lose any chance of convincing anyone that the devs made a right choice. Motion inputs FEEL good to do, they give personality and balance out moves. you can't just disregard that.
I don't need motion inputs to enjoy fighting games. I'm willing to give any game that's been earnestly desgined to be enjoyed such a way the time of day but until the perspective shifts away from this idea of "playing the REAL game" i will always respectfully push back on it.
There's zero need to justify against unreasonable people. "Motion inputs feel good" you say this unironically like a fact while demanding that people justify themselves better. LMAO.
@@seokkyunhong8812 not only did you not watch the video you also didn't finish reading my comment apparently.
@@brian_creamno, I read it. It's just hypocrisy on your part demanding that the otherside explain themselves with decorum and logic while having none yourself.
@@seokkyunhong8812 It's explained in the video and in my comment.
Honestly I get what ur saying but everyone is different. I got into FG's because motion inputs are cool, so if it doesnt have them im just not gonna play.I played some of the GB beta and i never used the simple inputs but i dont like how if i wanted to be objectively better i would have to use the objectively better controls
I'd really like to emphasize another design space that motion inputs allow developers to interact with and that's actually the consequence of how certain specials can become circumstantially impossible, which allows you to alter their power in other ways by restricting when they can be used. This is especially obvious for like charge inputs. If you have a charge input fireball, then you just can't use that special while approaching without hitting the brakes first. This means you could potentially make a stronger defensive fireball that can't be held as an ace in the hole when approaching.
Likewise, even without charge inputs, it's interesting how z inputs tend to overlap with quarter circle inputs. In the same manner, if you're holding forward and you try to do a fireball input, you can get a z input instead and therefore not be able to do the other input while approaching. This can also be different between characters because if you designed one that doesn't have a z input in their kit then this option is available to them. Another example of this kind of thing is like with charge input DPs, where on defense you could be threatening to use one at any time, but if you're forced to block an overhead, then you stop holding down to hold back, you dropped the charge and now the opponent can structure their offense having taken that one tool away.
Even aside from the delay in input, one button specials can't respect this kind of priority override that lets you restrict when certain tools are available.
A common argument I see is that people want modern inputs with no downside for one reason or another. My only problem with that argument is that it fails to consider the benefits it has, let’s say that you take a damage penalty for using them or in granblues case a longer cooldown. In return for this you get frame 1 moves because you don’t have to input the motion, they come out faster and are easier to do on reaction. It also is impossible to read at a medium level of play because you won’t see any motion indicating that they are going for a particular move. There are downsides yes but there are upsides so it makes no sense to get rid of the downsides and leave the objectively worse control scheme in the game.
I think the cooking analogy and ones fail to see the whole picture - it's more like this: They're not making cooking easier, they're making it so you can use a hand mixer instead of a whisk. It's not like someone can't learn to use a whisk, but why not have the option of a hand mixer as well? Both of them work, and one of them makes cooking as a whole easier, but there's more to cooking than just using a mixer or whisk.
i'm physically disabled, so i appreciate this long post explaining this stuff from an accessibility [not difficulty, accessibility] point of view, but understand why it is frustrating for people. i'm a little sad the devs needed to write such an extensive thing to justify this choice in the way they did, but i appreciate the in depth discussion in the video of the implications of the design choice!
i should probably be using modern controls while learning to play sf6, to reduce tangible injury to my hands, but i decided that i was going to learn the motions from the start because it seemed fun to me! now i'm learning how to do them safely, it's really satisfying. but for friends who can't perform those motions safely because of their own situations, i'm glad to see stuff like this because they can still play and have fun!
Don't take this as an insult but I am sick and tired of disabled people trying to force themselves into everything. I am close to legally blind and can't legally operate a motor vehicle. It's something I just live with. I don't want to now prohibit everybody else from driving. At the end of the day, we are irrelevant for the conversation of what should and what shouldn't be. We don't account for a big enough demographic why ruin it for everyone else?
I actually didn't even think about physical disability, damn. I guess from an accessibility standpoint, fgs have pretty much always been pretty terrible. Idk if that can ever be %100 remedied, but 1 button specials are an interesting compromise.
Kind of a terrifying compromise, but yeah now that I think about it a lot of people could benefit.
@@JinTheAceStar So, your experiences are your own and I won't counter any of them there! I also can't drive for a bunch of reasons, including low vision - I take taxis and do rideshares instead. But in terms of demographic, you're drastically underestimating us. 1 in 6 people in the world are disabled in some way, and that population is rising a lot as a result of covid. Disabled people also tend to play a lot of video games! There's actually a lot of financial incentives for developers to include accessibility options. However, I was just offering something about this that made me happy for other people I know, who would like to be able to enjoy an experience. I doubt this update was designed as an accessibility feature, it just is also one.
Everyone I know who plays fighting games is happy that I am finding ways to participate in something they enjoy, and giving me little tips and reminders on how to do it safely. It's just net good for games if more people are able to play them.
I hope you have a good day.
@@haydarrencuzogullari5736 Yeah, it's neat! I def. understand why some folks don't like the idea, and Sajam's video on this was really informative and interesting.
Good talk- 👍 really clarifies and expands on what I've tried to tell people but I'm dumb 😂
Probably an unpopular opinion but as a more novice player trying to learn SF6 I find it off putting when I am trying to learn classic and I'm just getting tossed around by wakeup DP's and simple combos into super that never get dropped while I'm still fumbling my way into muscle memory. The fundamental idea that's always in the back of my mind is that me and my opponent aren't truly playing the same game and while I know good players can overcome this trying to learn classic (and SF in general as this is my first) while getting smashed around by simple inputs actually doesn't make me want to continue at all. I personally think a game either needs to completely commit to classic or completely commit to modern. This halways middle ground is not breeding a drive to continue for me. Getting washed by another classic player doesn't annoy me nearly as much as when it's a modern player.
Honestly i completely agree. I played GBVSR and i love fighting games for the motion inputs so i only used the motion inputs but the way its balanced now just has me at a complete disadvantage to those that do use it, but i dont want to lower my enjoyment just to use the objectively better input.
As always you've articulated how I felt but couldn't express properly. Love your measured and knowledgeable takes
Even if motion inputs aren’t actually what hold back new players capcom isn’t entirely wrong about the idea of motion inputs turning new players away. New players may see motion inputs when learning the game and think they are are insurmountable skill gate to enjoy the game, capcoms rational while not exactly right is what a lot of newer players may feel. Special moves are also inherently “special” and are interesting and powerful to use so when a new player cannot access them it could be another reason to drop the game. I agree that the special inputs do not gatekeep new players from playing a fighting game it shouldn’t be disregarded, the amount of time to become a competent smash player is likely the same as becoming a competent sf player and yet you will rarely hear about a player who quit smash because doing a special move was too hard, the same cannot exactly be said for FGs
David Sirlin sits in the corner of his room in the shadows, laughing softly under his breath. He leans forward, his face coming into view from light of the computer screen.
"I told you, Sajam!" he shouted. "I told you all, Hahahahaha!"
Having heard mid and high-level Granblue players' impressions of the Rising beta, this entire discourse missed the point on both sides. The real issue, or at least the one I've heard explained the most, is that a bunch of attacks were rebalanced in ways that harmed their characters in ways that wouldn't have been necessary if the old system was kept.
SF6 Modern controls prove this could be done better, especially since some Modern characters are still viable despite missing chunks of their moveset!
I mean for Christ's sake, Modern Ryu is missing his best fucking punish starter (st.HK) and I don't traditionally play on pad, but I was still able to get to Gold within a couple of days, while learning the wacky control scheme, on my friend's PS5. On my PC where I can use my X360 era HitBox still, I'm a Platinum player running Classic but that took a week.
You can ABSOLUTELY do work with Modern, but there's also absolutely reason to get good at Classic if you really want to maximize your efficacy in game. Which is great
Phenomenal point about how motions balance special moves. If a DP gets the reverse shoryuken input, it’s instantly more powerful without changing any other properties, frame data, etc.
Excellent point 👏🏾
My first "fighting game" experience was with Smash Bros, and it's fun to play even though it has one-button specials. I'm sure I could have a blast playing a more traditional fighter with one-button specials too. However, I do really enjoy the challenge and satisfaction of pulling off a complex sequence of inputs. I use a hitbox now and doing combos feels like playing a musical instrument and that tactile feeling is a real part of my enjoyment of the game. Plinking dash into other buttons for kara cancels and dash RCs in GGST is so damn fun. Hopefully devs find ways to either balance simple vs. motion inputs, or at the very least devs keep making fighting games with only motion inputs, even if they end up being more niche. If the bigger studios all wind up only using simple controls in the future, I hope indie devs who are fans of the more old-school style will keep making games that way. At the very least we'll always have rollback to help keep older games alive.
I've started playing SF6 with my 5 year old. He only likes playing mirror matches. I play classic (I'm really bad) and he plays modern. This is nice because he can be a 5 year old and still do the cool shit he sees me attempting/failing/succeeding at.
The day motion inputs or just technical stuff in general vanishes from the genre is the day I stop buying new fighting games. The old games will always be there anyway, there's a reason I keep going back to them. I'm just not interested anymore if a lot of what I like about the genre gets removed.
Thats the one point I brought up to my fgc friends when I heard about the new simple inputs. That the meterless reversals had either better lose invicibility on non-EX or better have a long cooldown by default. Maybe my ideas werent great but I also am not excited for a game with an abundance of one button DPs.
Project L having 2 special move buttons to me feels like it would make the game more akward/annoying to play on pad than if they just had motion inputs, I'm already low on space for macros as it is, the last thing I need is 2 buttons that are effectively wasted space. This is a problem motion inputs exist to solve.
Had an argument with a guy about this exact thing and his argument was that “classic has one button anti airs too. Ken cr.HP, Ryu cr.HP, etc.” and I was explaining that they aren’t invincible to air moves or are slower than most DPs, cover less range, etc. and I was met with, “well if you lose to modern players because they anti air then you suck.” I was like… no? That’s not even the point of what we’re talking about😂
I really dislike the naming of beginner friendly control schemes like "modern" and "simple", it carries with it a connotation that regular fighting game controls are these scary, super complex things and it makes them seem imposing to new people. Regular controls *are* simple, they just require a little bit hit of time to get used to them, like any other control scheme. They don't *need* modernization because they still work incredibly well. Motions are as synonymous with fighting games as shotos, fireballs, and DPs, how many shirts are there that just have the motion for a hadouken? What other genre has a *control scheme* thats so instantly recognizable and iconic? Adding in casual controls is fine, and I'm glad its there for people with disabilities so they can enjoy fighting games too, but to completely get rid of such a hallmark of the genre is absurd.
I think Sajam's take is the best one I've seen and most closely aligns with my own perspective on Technical Inputs. There's nothing wrong with a fighting game having no technical inputs, but there are also certain advantages that come when you design a game with special inputs in mind.
Think of how Counter Strike as an FPS has perfectly accurate guns even when firing 'from the hip', and the accuracy on the few weapons with scopes doesn't improve when scoped in, it simply zooms in your aim so you can see better. Then compare to Call of Duty where your weapon has a 'hip-fire accuracy' which randomly pellets bullets in an area and an 'ADS accuracy' that makes your bullets pinpoint accurate.
Is one 'right' and one 'wrong'? Of course not, they're two very different games that play very differently because of different control schemes, and the fact that we can play both or either game is fucking awesome. Having an ADS accuracy difference changes a lot of how the game is played and the meta of the game, which results in a very different experience.
The fact that special inputs can be dropped or flubbed allows for interesting interactions to occur when players miss inputs, and I can confirm that I've been playing fighting games for 15 odd years and I STILL mess up tiger-knees and shoryukens in the heat of the moment.
That being said, it introduces that element of 'hip-fire randomness' that can be mitigated with play time, and that's just not a great fit for a lot of games. A lot of people want to jump in and start having mind games, and don't want to feel behind the curve just because they can't do a shoryuken motion consistently.
That being said, other people (myself included) like feeling the game is more unpredictable, the idea that you have to stay cool under pressure and not mess up your motions or practise to get them consistent, especially in longer combos or in hitconfirms, can be intoxicating for people like me.
There's room for both of us, and there are lots of games encompassing both control types. What irritates me about this post is that it does seem to come out and say simple controls are simply superior to technical controls because they remove a barrier to the fun, which is a really stupid argument because for some crazy fools like myself, the barriers to overcome ARE the fun.
I think the problem with modern in sf6 is more the autocombos. Motion controls are fun and pretty easy to get used to. But being able to just mash out a full combo into lvl 3 super with 1 button on any character is tough to fight against. You don't need to practice anything. And instant dp is annoying too.
Most auto combo in SF6 are not very good, waste a lot of drive and ends up scaling the lv3 super heavily.
Most pro rarely use the full auto combo and instead use something more optimal.
I mean to be fair he wasn't talking about pros,
Pros aren't the majority it's new people and casuals that use auto combos and spam auto combo. U think it's annoying than it's annoying not everyone knows how to deal with that and will have to adapt but til than ur opinion is Valid. Cause u can still lose to auto combo if ur not pass a certain level I guess n there nothing wrong if u win against or lose to it
Moder control can still use proper combos tho but yea input isnt "modern" anymore maybe lol
I enjoy how simple controls encourage new players to learn Motion inputs for the benefit of damage,and cool down time. Being in a situation where they could have won if they did the motion and realizing where they need to improve. Even simple things like using a motion input when you want can be rewarding, it's an easy way to see your improvement
8:54 I just realized this isn't even a problem necessarily with FGs. LoL and DotA have characters like that already and the MOBA genre's been doing well for 10, 15 years now. Old techies, Meepo, Chen, Irelia, Ryze, Pyke, etc.
There are characters in those games that are functionally unplayable for the majority of the playerbase due to how difficult the execution of the character is.
Yeah you can create technical challenges with lots of different control types. Mobas are just hitting one button for a skill but lots of champs are really technical with that + mouse movement and clicking alone.
Whatever evens out the playing field is good. I personally like a challenge in games.
I dont mind having more options for players, whether its Classic or an equivalent Modern system, but there has to be a give and take. Granblue I think already did this very well with the cooldown system so the change doesnt really make sense to me. If they came out like "We think Granblue would be better without motion inputs and will balance the game around that" rather than having both input systems and making one option just objectively better, I think this would be better received. But having both input systems and having no drawbacks makes it feel super arbitrary. I hope they rethink this, theres so much about Rising that is just super bizarre.
An under discussed part of this conversation is the fact that simple inputs are simply less fun to do than motions.
Remember when the motion input for a move was also part of that moves balancing and part of what makes that move feel cool to pull off…?
The issue with with changing FG that have used directional inputs to simple inputs is that the games were balanced with that in mind. The classic example is charge combos. They can be more powerful because they have built in difficulty.
GBV found this out when moving to simple inputs with no difference in outcome. They've had to nerf damage and utility of some moves specifically because they were completely feral with 1 button.
I'd argue for nerfing damage more for SF6's moderb control system, but I think they've threaded the needle much better on the whole.
They should make a fighting game that only uses simple inputs with a .5s global cooldown and the move should fail 70% of the time to create a more accurate experience for new players to all players
Yeah that's actually an interesting idea. Kinda of like Fire Emblem or XCOM but crossed with a fighting game, so you have to strategically play around the RNG while fighting.
Personally i think that even if you technically can play fighting games without being able to do the moves playing that way is just EXTREMELY DULL. People want to do cool stuff, and being able to do the special moves is a basic to doing cool stuff, it's where your characters coolness lies. Playing and awkwardly exchanging normals just isn't engaging enough for most people.
I'm gonna cook all new players regardless of their inputs. Every body catching these hands in game. We don't discriminate
You’re a real one for this
To clarify, Modern Supers are always two buttons, Special + H, along with a directional input for 2 and 3 (level 1 can fire from neutral, back for 2, down for 3) so while it is certainly easier, many of the people who use Modern for accessibility reasons can still mis-input from not being able to quite hit them both at the same time.
@@tgraposa3734 Mm. Surprised that's CPT legal, but point taken.
A friend of mine who much prefers FPS titles like CSGO and Valorant had a rather interesting suggestion as an alternative to cooldowns: Giving characters a Mana Bar that can be spent for simple inputs, or a "momentum system" where you have to use motion inputs if you want to use multiple simple inputs. These are definitely interesting and might solve the concern the devs are having with cooldowns but it also creates separate design issues so who knows
DNF uses a mana system like that, with reduced mana cost for the motion input. It did run into issues with the defensive mechanics _also_ being tied to mana, though, which made it hard to reverse your opponent's momentum.
@@woopi8003That’s mainly because DNF was designed by idiots. They took a pretty solid idea in the mana bar, and overloaded its use cases. Would love to see it done in a competent fighting game.
An extreme example of special moves, needing to be adjusted, would be Guile's flash kick and sonic boom (inputed via the touch screen) in Super Street Fighter IV: 3D Edition on the 3DS.
That shit was busted.
make no mistake, "it just takes a little away" is the favorite argument of tourists that will ruin your hobby.
And old ass boomers ruin everything.
They did this with b-hopping in Valorant. Compared to CS:GO, where b-hopping takes a lot of time to learn and skill to execute, you gain a significant advantage by moving faster than base run speed and it just feels good to do. In Valorant you can just hold W and spam mouse wheel to "b-hop". There's no movement speed advantage and it doesn't feel fun like it did in Counter-Strike. Pretty much eliminating a satisfying core element of the game in order to level the playing field.
I genuinely agree with a lot of this. The idea of having both simple and motion inputs together without any power tradeoff between the two feels bizarrely disconnected from the reality of a player's experience. Simple inputs? Cool. Motion inputs? Also cool.
I started playing Smash before I went to other fighting games and games like BFTG helped with that transition from Smash to 2D fighters. BFTG gave me the ability to get used to a 2D fighting environment and inspired me to try UNI and Skullgirls until GGST released and that's when I genuinely felt more interested in playing 2D fighters over platform fighters. I'm excited that Project L has simple inputs because I have friends who are experiencing the same kind of fanboy excitement I felt for BFTG and they can go on a similar journey I did.
Simple Inputs are fine. Motion inputs are fine. But they present completely different design challenges and cannot be treated as the same, this just sounds like a long winded way to say "I wanted to make a simple input fighter but we knew the sweaties would be upset if the motion inputs were gone" and that doesn't sit well with me.
Cant wait for this vid to be posted on the SF subreddit only for half of the comment section calling Sajam a modern defender while the other half calls him a gatekeeper
There are consequences to making modern controls with sf6. It doesn’t make players that use them broken but it becomes alittle too much. It’s do-able to play against them but you feel it right away that you are at a dis-advantage. You can’t jump in on them and you have to play patient like they’re guile i feel 😅.
Im new to fighting games and sf6. I feel like learning the fundamentals, lingo, inputs, TIMING, my character, the other characters, meta etc is an overwhelming task. I spend more time in training then in matches. The topic reminds me of learning piano versus violin. A child could produce a quality note on a piano, but it takes years of training to produce a passable note on the violin.
TLDR; When it comes to learning inputs, I feel like I’m playing sf6 on a violin. But it is fun
I think the big takeaway is;
1. Why make things easier, it dilutes the competitive aspect IE one button DPs are not fun to play against
2. If a game can support one button inputs, like power rangers, then it is acceptable because it doesn't provide any sort of real advantage.
3. Taking away all the hard work players have put in learning all the techniques is a great way to alienate parts of your player base.
After the release of SF6, I decided to make the switch to hitbox. Been a pad player for decades, I own a stick and I can use it but I don't like it that much. I can relate to the need of modern controls. It took me about 6 days to get comfortable on hitbox. However, with that said, I could totally tell that my experience played a role in getting me back up to speed. Also, I feel like arcade sticks and leverless controllers are a lot more intuitive than it may seem. The point I'm trying to make is that it just takes time. I agree with what you say. One button specials work in games like Power Rangers or project L. It would be the dumbest thing for any company to make a game that does away with classic inputs altogether.
Motion inputs aren't just an artificial hurdle made from an archaic time. I feel like thats what the developers are now thinking, and are forgetting the importance of motion.
Not only for the satisfaction it brings through its mastery, but it adds whole layers of meta game.
Its a whole aspect of mastery, you had people in the past having the reputation of being execution monsters and being rewarded for it.
Not only that, motions add to the depth of the mindgames, for instance such as seeing someone "teebagging" when he is in fact buffering supper, or seeing someone crouched doing seemingly nothing but he is buffering the shortcut for DP and ready to punish your approach. Shows you your opponent thoughts through the understanding of how moves are executed, and then you could fake those things, and so on and so forth. Not forgetting that making the DP motion breaks your guard and opens you up, even if only for a couple frames, doing motions cost you mental energy and add to the mental stack, and I could go on and on and on...
And we're loosing all that for a temporary boost in playership ? I don't know man. I feel like we're loosing track of the big picture here.
the tbag mixups and things are so cool, but a lot of people nowadays will see that and think its cheese and that they should remove it. it's so sad
I like motion commands because sometimes my input incompetence leads to me not executing a special when my opponent expected which, in turn, throws them off and sometimes allows me to execute a punish.
Also, it feels good when I do pull of that execution under pressure and it produces good results.
I feel like the cooldown in original GBVS and the damage nerf in SF6 is fine and ASW really didn't need to change things 😕
If a game is balanced around motion inputs, but has alternative inputs for less skilled players, I think that'll always give the game the most depth. I think most people are freaking out about the granblue news because it sounds like they aren't really going to change anything. Even Fantasy Strike, one of the simplest fighting games EVER, adjusts the way its moves behave to balance how easy they are for experienced players to spam.
I think Granblue in particular is a game where one-button specials are completely fine. The main source of concern about those is typically DPs, but Granblue has air blocking against those, so one button DP does not mean you can never jump. Similar with one button supers, which are also air blockable, and now the game is adding more stuff to spend super meter on, making supers have an opprtunity cost to be used at all.
The only possible concern I can think of is charge moves, but the only charge character it had at launch, Charlotta, is probably fine there. Not sure if any of the DLC characters were charge, I only played for a month due to the online. Nobody I tried in the beta was, at least.
You didn't played enough to know a lot of moves, including DPs are air unblockable.
What if special moves with motion input are normal speed, while one button special moves are 5-7 frames slower? From testing, motion inputs take about 5-7 frames longer. Could be an interesting idea.. To have the motion input reward feel like what you are doing with the controller could be really satisfying. Changing it's speed or giving other bonuses as well. Classic vs modern input is definitely not the easiest thing to design and balance.
I guess it makes it easier for newcomers to do all the moves however if you're not willing to learn a fireball or DP motion then you're probably
not going to be willing to stick around getting bodied and learning. I remember how tough hadokens were when I first tried. I could get like 2 or 3 out of ten in training mode trying as hard
as I could. Eventually it became second nature to me. If the devs said ah it's too hard for newcomers let's just not put it in then they would've robbed me of that awesome experience
of initially struggling, staying the course and finally succeeding. I'd hate for others to not also get the chance to go through the same thing.
I love how motion inputs always reflect the technique your character is actually doing, like the harder the input the more focus and effort your character is using to actually pull it off, like kof for example and also they always made sense which is really satisfying, like the hadouken makes perfect sense
And the pretzel doesn't. Also FANG had projectiles on down up. Motions also changed between games like Guile double somersault kick. You tacked on things making sense after the fact.
I haven't played GBVs in a while, but if i remember correctly, some characters, like Charlotta, don't even need charge for their charge moves if you do the simple inputs. Now that there's no drawbacks at all, i imagine she becomes at least a bit scarier to move against.
She was one of the characters where choosing between technical and simple inputs wasn't just a matter of execution, it was choosing to use the roll without charge in exchange for a cooldown. The removal of any penalty for technical inputs simply removed strategical depth from the character in addition to normalizing how she feels.
As for whether she is scary, she really wasn't in the beta, because she is one of the characters most impacted by the loss of most hard knockdowns, and less importantly because she has terrible Ultimate Skills.
@@feri7mble Guess I'll just have to play someone else if they made her suck. Oh well.
I think its simply not balanced fighting people who are using an entirely different control scheme then you. Controller type is 1 thing but how you play the game changes entirely if you pick Classic or Modern controls, its almost like playing against someone who’s playing a different game than you.
There's a deep dark jail cell within in the deepest, darkest trenches of my soul. In it, I keep my Scrub Goblin. I've been suspecting that he has the key to get out all along because whenever I fight a Modern Control Luke I keep thinking "this is fucking bullshit".
That is not a scrub goblin, it is a truth goblin
Scrub goblin likes to jump in, doesn’t he?
I think it's important to consider and reiterate that those vets started out new too, in much harder to learn games (available resources were much more scarce and inputs weren't nearly as lenient).
In this day and age, new players can learn execution as easy as ever.
Simple inputs are fine, but erasing motion commands because "it's too hard" is just silly.
Long story short: These games aren't defined by their inputs, but the way in which the inputs affect the game. If you're going to make a fighting game that has simple and old-school inputs, then you have to balance your game around that fact, otherwise one style is just the better option. And forcing the players to just use both simultaneously the way some games do has been shown to just cause its own problems.
I agree with you, Mr. Jam. It's just about the game you want to make. I understand developers moving toward simple inputs to make FGs a lot more entry-level and allow for the cool stuff to come out with ease, but then build the game around that system and don't worry about the Classic style. Sure, it might scare off the crowd who don't want to do simple inputs, but if the game is fun they'll get over it.
good old functions fallacy.
I think a better version of the point that Fukuhara was trying to make is to ensure that everyone has easy access to every move right out of the gate instead of giving some newcomers a "cheap" advantage simply for having a better _memory_ for motions, which is more of an inherent thing than a honed thing. Or maybe he just didn't want being good at motion-heavy FGs to translate too much to being utterly dominant at GBVSR. Whatever the case, I, like you, can see both sides of the argument and believe there's room for all sorts of fighters for testing different skill sets. Even as all fighters should aim to have decent accessibility options whether they make it part of the "real" game or not.
I get that this may just be a "me" thing, but I've yet to play a game that focused on easy execution that I actually could get into. And most I liked well enough, I just never LOVED.
It was the easiest thing in the world for me to drop Power Rangers, that Sirlin fighter based on his card game, and several others I can't even remember the name of as soon as a new fighter came out, and I never looked back.
I think the sole notion of "Motion inputs are too difficult" is only a notion of the devs patronizing and infantilizing their players. Is not that there can not be 1 button specials, is that the reasoning is simply assuming people are dumb. Stuff like a 236 or a [4] 6 is not difficult to use or explain to anybody. Just like aiming in an FPS, the principle is really simple, but you wont see fps communities advocating for computer assisted stuff like cheat style aimbot to be implemented and legalized in their competitive enviroment. I do not think 1 buttons specials are bad, I just thini the devs shouls stop treating their players like idiots incapable of moving a stick from down to right on a PS5 pad.
Actually, you see a lot of arguments for aim assist in FPS games now with the advent of cross play, where controller aim assist gives pretty massive advantages in most of the games its present, to the point where unless you are a truly gifted player it's usually better to play on controller than it is for kb/m. I don't really care for 1 button specials for this exact reason, unless they have really big tradeoffs or nerfs. Execution is a big part of the game, not a hurdle to be skipped past, its part of what makes a lot of games fun to begin with.
I am starting to think that we are not considering the fact that newer controllers are being made terrible for motion inputs. We complained about playing Marvel 3 with a thumbstick but this will be the starting experience of any new player. So I guess this is another consequence of dpads being bad lately.
I just kinda hate that learning motion inputs is seen as some huge hurdle. Like it REALLY is not that difficult, literally just takes some practice if you have never done it.
Any amount of practice really is a considerable hurdle when it comes to getting new players into the genre. The quicker a non-fgc player can feel in control of their character, the quicker they can learn the actual appeal of the game. (That said, I’d still prefer they keep it the classic way lol)
Yes, it doesn't take that long, but the average gamer doesn't want to have to practice motions just to start playing the game. A lot of my casual friends fall off pretty early because they just don't feel like learning inputs just to start playing a character.
@@yasuke267Monster Hunter and Elden Ring required the same exact damn thing and no one complains about those.
I don't understand why people act like casuals can't do this shit.
This is what gets me too. The fuss over motion inputs being too hard feels like they're treating new players as utterly incompetent. Most of them could do motion inputs consistently without that much practice!
@@EeleyeDD I didn't say they couldn't do it. I said they didn't feel like doing it.
I agree that balancing is going to be the real problem here (and in any game that has or favours simple controls).
Another important issue to keep in mind is that this new version of Granblue is not a new game; it's an "upgrade" of an old one that already had an existing fan base with an accepted play style. It was initially proposed as, in essence, a shiny new version of the old game but with the better netcode that players have been begging for literally since the game initially came out (which was just amplified by the pandemic). So we have a case here of the long term fan base finally getting a feature added to the game they've been wanting for years.. except it's no longer the game they were fans of. If this was GBVS2 it may not be as big a deal, but it's not GBVS2.
I don’t really like simple controls, I genuinely like the skill gaps you find in fighting games. These games aren’t built as casual games, they never have been, it’s a one on one self improvement type of game. Simple inputs cannot fix any of the issues you run into except inputs. If you have no interest in self improvement, these already aren’t the games for you, simple inputs won’t make new players stay.
I have 6 kids and 4 jobs. I don't have the time to practice. I should be able to pick up the controller, close my eyes, and beat you. You're just mad that fighting games aren't being made for fighting game players. They are being made for everyone
You’re tripping
@@Xenozillex lmao
Fair point, but gamers have SO MUCH OPTION today that if the FGC wants to be more than a niche genre, there needs to be some compromises. Fair enough there will always be people to play with if you're playing SF or MK, but there is a whole bunch of Discord fighters that would benefit a lot from having more players, and these extra players could be playing if there was a smaller skill gap. Why spend hours practicing an fg and still be bad at it if I can play 10 diferent indie games that are super cheap and pretty good too?
@@Mene0 Compromising on your core audience is never a good idea though.
And like so many others said already, execution is only a small part of what separates beginners from veterans.
Giving easier access to powerful tools to newbies means those veterans also have easy access to those tools but they also stil have much better understanding of their use.
Or even how to properly move around the screen and feel out their opponent - stuff that simple inputs does jack shit to address.
I remember someone countering the "I just want to get to the mind game and decision making part of fighting games" argument with the fact that the delay inherent to motion controls are part of the mind games and decision making. You wanna' go for the easier combo but leave them alive, or the hard combo to seal the win?
Motion inputs are way overrated in my view.
I'm not good at fighting games, but I've learned to do motion inputs and can do them comfortably. I've done a lot of tutorials and spent time in training mode to practice combos, blockstrings, +R FRCs, and so on. I understand the satisfaction that comes with executing motion inputs, and I share that satisfaction - I especially love charge inputs.
Despite all that, beginning players who are pushed away by motion inputs are reasonable. People saying that anyone who is turned off by motion inputs "wouldn't have kept playing anyways" have, I feel, just forgotten what it felt like to not be able to do the moves.
Yes, there are nice things about motion inputs. But it sucks to want to do a basic action with your character and just have nothing happen. Imagine I aim wrong in an FPS and I miss the enemy: I know that I aimed too far to the right, or whatever. The feedback loop is clear.
I input a motion wrong and, unless I'm in training mode with input display on, I don't know what went wrong, and nothing comes out. The novice can't explore all the basic possibilities with the character.
Consider something like smash - broad popular appeal, high execution at high level play. This is because being unable to wavedash feels very different from being unable to fireball. The novice in a game with simple inputs feels like they try out any basic action that their character can do - now they gotta get good at using those tools. The novice in a game with motion inputs feels like they have to overcome an arbitrary wall to even start experimenting with all the possibilities of the character.
Again, there's good things about motion inputs. But it's not unreasonable to contend that they're outweighed by the bad in many cases.
Yeah my main gripe like you mentioned, is that the strength has to be modeled around the 1 button access. Some supers like Lukes level 1 almost make it so if he even has 1 meter in burnout hes not really worried. Also the DPs requiring the motion will influence my gameplay, I'll be more likely to jump or do something a little risky if I know there is that barrier, along with having to hold forward for multiple directions to input it. Single button just feels like its able to get around some of the things in the system that are a bit scarier in classic.
Not sure if it would be a good change, but maybe make certain modern inputs like dp a light version. Still very good, but lacks damage and combo potential.
But, you can obviously still do the motion input, and maybe make it so if you do, a press the different attack buttons, it pulls out the corresponding version.