The Messer has grown to become my absolute favourite weapon by far, possibly even eclipsing the sabre (though mostly because there's more fun stuff to do with it than in the sabre manuals - show me a sabre manual that teaches you how to play backgammon!), though it's quite a shame it's not a terribly popular weapon in HEMA today. Sure, there are people practicing it but it's not a famous weapon, most HEMA events don't do Messer tournaments as far as I know so there's obviously less demand for it than sabre, longsword or rapier. I've been wondering that it might be because it's a distinctly German weapon so it never really appears in English-language pop culture so people don't know of it. Another idea is perhaps that full-contact sparring with it is quite unsafe as it involves a lot of arm locks and other grappling techniques. What do you think, Matt?
Bauernwehr is a German word that combines the tow words bauern (farmers) and Wehr(in this context defense ). It works like the German word for fire brigade, which is Feuerwehr. As a help for the pronunciation, "au" is spoken like the "ow" in "wow", the "b" like in "breakfast" , "rn" is difficult to describe and "Wehr" is similar to "where". Just listen to examples of bauern and Feuerwehr and you will master it.
That is a thick messer! I prefer the long, thin ones myself. Also, Shadiversity did a video series on how Messers and Falchions are really the same thing, basing it on Elmslie's research and his Elmslie Typology. He also talks as to why the Messer appeared when Falchions already existed.
I really don´t buy the idea of the messer being a way to get around medieval weapon laws. Commoners are allowed to own swords to use them when they have to defend their home or when they follow their lord into war. They are also allowed to wear them when travelling, for self-defense. Only in "secured" areas, so in town, inside the city walls and so on, you have to store your sword at your house (or the house of your host). Only Nobles where allowed to walk around town with a Sword (and sometimes the middle and upper class of a city). That doesent really change from the 13th to the 15th century, so i don´t see why they would have waited till the 15th century to find a way around those laws. Instead i think it´s for a practical reason: Swords get more and more thrust-centered as the 15th century goes on, to deal with armour (I´m for example thinking on the very narrow soldier´s sword from the wallace collection, that you and dr. Capwell talked about.). You established in your older videos, that you can´t really make a sword that´s both awesome at cutting and awesome at thrusting while still being well balanced. You always have to trade one for the other. So i think the Messer started as a civilian self-defense weapon. Because in a self-defense situation your attacker is most likely not gonna wear armour. Under these circumstances a very good cutting weapon (like a Messer) is far more usefull, than a sword that has been optimised for thrusting to deal with armour. When Commoners where called to war, they most likely wouldn´t buy an extra sword for war, but use the sidearm they already owned, which means the messer. This would explain why messers start to get a clipped back point to get a little more of a chance against armour while still keeping most of the cutting power that made them good civilian self-defense weapons. I´d be happy to know what you think of my theory.
"I really don´t buy the idea of the messer being a way to get around medieval weapon laws" Shadiversity's messer and falchion series says very much the same thing considering that it was a legal requirment for people to own and cary swords in this period. Instead he explains a different theory proposed by James Elmslie in part 3 of his video series.
Thank you very much, one of the first times I hear someone on youtube talking about present day Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France,... in a more correct way. Well done.
My opinion is that the lineage of the messer goes all the way back to the seax. Langseax means the same thing as langmesser and fills basically the same niche. Super interesting factoid about the nagle coming from smaller peasant knives. The problem with a crossguard on a knife is it severely degrades the knife as a tool. But putting the cross on the side instead of in line with the blade gets it out of the way for using the knife as a tool and not a weapon.
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Matt Lentzner The words "Messer" and "Sax" are actually related. Both stem from the germanic word "Messisahsa".
Guys you all really need to watch SHADIVERSITY's falchion and messer series because so many of the questions in these comment are answered by him. In Part 2 of his series he talks about how the Seax couldn't have been the genesis of thefalchion. The time periods and locations don't match up.
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Damien Rivers Shad is talking nonsense. We have a continuity of single edged blades from the sax till the Messer. We have linguistic evidence that "Messer" and "Sax" stem from the same germanic word. We have the word "sahs" (Sax) in middle high german language. Shad is a halfwit.
A halfwit?!?!?! Funny because what Shad is saying is exactly what James Elmslie says on the subject, the very man who Matt Easton here says is the leading authority on this subject. The falchion is NOT an evolution of the Seax. Did you even watch Shad's video or are you one of those morons who insult and attack people who do great work because of your own inferiority complex? I'm not saying Shad get's everything right but he has the intellectual honesty to admit when he's wrong, the very thing that led him to make his falchion and messer series, something so obviously beyond a pathetic troll like you. What I find hilarious about you is this; if Matt Easton would say the falchion is not an evolution of the Seax, which he would considering he has already admitted that he defers to Mr Elmslie's experties regardning falchions, you would accept it happliy. Meaning you're guided by bias and identity politics over facts and evidance, calling Shad a halfwit. You're a pathetic worm for an intellectual.
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Damien Rivers Please. I know James. I disagree with him on this subject. I gave you arguments. I would like to hear James' opinion on them but Shad simply said that one bladed weapons disappeared for a period of time which simply is not true. We have archeological evidence too: s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e1/8a/ff/e18aff74596fffeadce13580787b9f93.jpg
Shad pretty much confirmed my theory about the origin: it's a question of *guild-regulations*. You had a blacksmith, a knifesmith and a swordsmith (and armourer etc.). They specialised on different items and with a blacksmith forge (for producing nails and horseshoes) and some mediocre iron, you cannot make longswords, or plate armour. They would bend or break in use. While swords were for the most part *not illegal* to own, they were expensive and a oversized kitchen knife (Bauernwehr) or Bowieknife (Grossmesser) might just be better for you. However, knifemakers started to infringe the territory/copyright of swordmakers, which they didn't appreciate. I assume that the knifemakers marketed their weapons as Bauernwehr and Grossmesser and won enough customers, so that the elite guild was beaten. These weapons were very good after all. You could immediately tell that the hilt is *rock-solid and it's full tang.* They are moreover very good cutters and backup weapons. Thus even the aristocracy started developing interest in them.
Definitely. “This isn't a sword, it's a knife" wouldn't convince a town guard or JP if swords were restricted, which they weren't, and any loophole of that nature would be easy to fix even if there were real rule of law, which there wasn't. I mean, substituting “bladed weapons above X inches of length" for "swords" would certainly have occurred to someone. However, the point of hilt construction is just the kind of argument that might carry in the equivalent of a patent lawsuit, especially if those in power are wary of the guilds' influence. After this were established, 'real' sword hilts would for a while be more prestigious, but eventually quality and showiness would be separated from technicalities. Hilt construction as a means of socially distinguishing between the two would become irrelevant to consumers. However, in the meanwhile the knife-like hilt would gain sales by being cheaper, which would result in a bigger market share at the lower end of the price spectrum.
@@janjoschafinger5749 I would assume knifes are something every blacksmith does a lot, and if your going around asking blacksmiths to make swords, then having a knife like construction is very intuitive for any blacksmith. Since its a blade heavy cutting sword, its also very intuitive to use for people that dont know how to swordfight. So it could be possible these are essentially swords made by people who arent weaponsmiths to people who arent swordmen.
@@lssnow8195 I guess that might well be a factor, but I still find the "license argument" more convincing. The Messer turned up exactly when and where guild structures were at their highest point yet started to prove a hindrance in some contexts. Where are the French, Spanish, English, Scottish, Russian Messers? Wherever a decent bladesmith could make a swordlike weapon without getting into trouble over giving it a sword tang, no swordlike weapons with knife tangs were made, it seems. And sure, a Smith who's not a sword specialist making swordlike weapons would mainly sell to the common infantryman -someone who's not really a swordsman. This, too, is quite compatible with my initial thesis: if such a thing were done, sooner or later the product as such would gain prestige, some of its makers would become specialists and gain reputation. The Messer would, thus, become more sophisticated, more respectable -and better. Isn't that what we see?
Hey Matt, nice video thoroughly enjoyed it. Bauernwehr means farmers-defence (from: sich wehren/to defend oneself) As for the pronunciation, try to say Bauer(n) like in Jack Bauer, same word [farmer(s)] and Wehr like wear.
I had no idea you got swords of this type that were sharpened on the "inward" edge! That's neat, I've always liked choppy kukri-style swords and knives and wondered why they weren't more widespread in combat use (considering the design is very common and effective in tools).
Just note to Bohemia: Bohemia is exonym. It is basically latin name for Czech kingdom. In Czech, we always were Czech kingdom (Království České) and now we are Czech Republic (Česká Republika).
Actually... the name "Bohemia" derives from the name of the Boii, a Celtic tribe who inhabited that area towards the La Tène period. The toponym Boiohaemum, first attested by Tacitus (56-120AD), is commonly taken to mean "home of the Boii" (from the Germanic root *haima- meaning "world, home"). So while it may be seen as an exonym to the slavs who later immigrated to Bohemia (375-568AD) , it is in fact the original name, in so far as such things exist...
I've been waiting for your Messer video. It did not disappoint. Excellent info, and well presented. I especially found your points about the Center of Percussion and the way blade shape dictates use interesting. I hadn't ever considered the center of percussion of the Messer versus a longsword and how the location (in absolute terms) is roughly the same on the two, meaning in the cut they are often effectively the same length of blade. As for where you discuss the effect of shape and how we see similar techniques and blades, well I discovered just how true that was when I showed some videos demonstrating Messer techniques, particularly displacement/versetzen to a friend who has studied Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and other Japanese schools, and he learned Wakizashi techniques that were nearly identical to the Messer techniques, but which developed completely independently of each other. How did it happen? Well as you said, similar blade shapes and lengths. The Wakizashi and Messer are both single-handed single-edged blades roughly as long as an average person's arm, so similar techniques were developed.
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Scott Slack I was surprised to see the similarities as well. There are some fundamentals that seem to be universal.
Bastian Koppenhofer Wait a minute, you're one of the guys from Historiches Messerfechten Mainz. It was your videos I showed to my friend that has studied Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Since I have the opportunity, I've got to thank you for those videos. The Messer interests me more than any other sword, and your videos helped me to learn more about how to use it.
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Scott Slack Thank you! Much appreciated. There will be even more videos coming up. I'm so glad you like them.
My understanding is that the Nagel is just a common way of attaching the guard to the rest of the hilt, as a pin or "nail" going through both the blade and guard. Later in Langes Messer we see it starting to get longer and wider and become a form of hand protection (either in combat or otherwise) and then eventually developing in to early shell guards.
I'm super late to the party but a historian once told me the Messer is a Messer (with that particular hilt & handle) because of guilds. Guilds were very well organized and quite powerful in the regions you were talking about. Knifes were made by a different guild than swords. So the Knifemakers, wanting to expand created a knife (as by the hilt) that just happened to be for fighting.
I suppose a langes messer is pretty similar to a long seax, esp the one they found at the site of the Battle of Stamford Bridge. It has a sword hilt, then a freaking huge seax blade. And by huge, I mean 2.5x larger than average. It has a needle-point, I imagine to deal with chainmail. The long seax is probably the direct ancestor of the langes messer, the name is even the same in meaning, and they're both Germanic. The only major difference is that seax are narrower and dead straight. I think the curvature of messers is because it is easier to forge a curved blade. As someone that used to make knives for cash, the straight ones took 3x as much work as a curved blade. The reason is that keeping a single edged blade straight means putting it edge side down and striking the spine with your hammer. Because the cross section between the hammer and anvil is way thicker than when only working the bevel, it requires more force to move. Maintaining a thick spine results in a gentler curve because the greater mass resists the expansion of the thinner part near the edge. If you don't maintain the thickness at the spine, it is pretty easy to make a chakram with only a 3oz ball peen. But if you have metal an inch thick, it takes a sledge hammer 10-15 blows to move it noticeably.
AFAIK, the main subtypes of the messer (probably) go something like this: Bauernwehr (one-handed messer with narrower blade), Grosse Messer (one-handed messer with wider, almost falchion-style blade), Langes Messer (one-handed or hand-and-a-half longsword-like version) and Kriegsmesser (two-handed, curved, almost sabre-like version). P.S. Messers were also used in the Kingdom of Hungary, alongside late falchions and other single-edged infantry swords. Hungary had a mostly German and Italian cultural influence when it came to foreign influences in its late-medieval weapon developments.
"Bauernwehr"-try it this way: Bourn (spelled as "devour")-wear (without slipping into the "A"-sound but keeping the "E" the whole time until you switch unto the "R" :-).
Oh Matt, you never cease to impress. You just invoked the Rule of Cool. I'm not going to argue with you and I agree entirely on that. The part about them being directly comparable? Maybe. The issue I have with this comparison is that I know messers have clear sources that don't seem to exist for the falchion. It feels far too regional, too specifically related to an area and a set of laws. I don't think that ever applied to the falchion. At least, I think so for the moment. There's holes in that argument, since we don't know what common sword fighting actually was or looked like.
Interestingly, for an everyday knife having only a nagel and no cross allows you to use the pinch grip as used by chefs and for many other applications while still retaining the anti slip properties. Also the nagel is positioned in a meatier part of the hand than a cross guard like on a Bowie so is possibly more comfortable however I own neither so conjecture alert.
They were not always light there is atleast one well documented Messer, probably a Hunting Sword, that weighs 1.36kg on a length from 76cm. The nail was often used to fix the crossguard on the blade, because of the full with tang the guard can't be really wedged on like on swords with a tapering tang.
I have to second the opinion on Messer not being a sword. My information is, though swords were pretty common in those times, common people weren't usually allowed to carry swords in public in times of peace. They only were allowed to legally get out their swords in case of an "official" call to arms. So in times of peace instead of having a sword in their belt they carried their "tool for work", their Messer around. Makes sense to me. And for completion the differences between Messer are the following three and imo the most crucial: * The handle/hilt doesn't have a pommel but a tang and rivets (see modern kitchen knives for example) * The Messer only has a one-edged blade (and a short edge on the back of the blade) * Messers usually were having a "Nagel" or "Wehrnagel" on the crossguard
I'd love to see you do a video, in a similar fashion to this one, on the katzbalger. Cool and interesting sword which i know very little about. Mainly because you have not yet done a video about it.
My facsimile of the Codex Wallerstein is buried in storage because I'm in the middle of moving right now, but I want to say that the German text refers to the Messers depicted therein as "dussack." Not to say there isn't a separate weapon we should call a dussack because nomenclature changes and becomes more defined over time and all, but I wonder if dussack wasn't just an early German term for a sword having a blade of this type, whether falchion, messer, or what we would call a dussack today.
More messers vids please! I wanted a falchion so bad I actually made a clippoint one with a left-handed nagle from a machete. Not the best but I am saving up! They are very neat...
The hilt construction was a product of different guilds restricting who were allowed to craft certain kinds of things and other guilds finding ways to get around these restrictions. Most notably knife making guilds making swords and calling them knives so the sword making guilds had no legal means to stop them.
Just to add another data point -- in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, in the Reeve's Tale the miller carries a Panade , which is defined in the first Middle English dictionary I could find as "noun: cutlass, a short sword with a slightly curved blade". I haven't been able to find any images of surviving examples, but it's clearly an example of a non aristocrat carrying either a hanger or something messer like in the late 14th century.
That's very interesting. I've not come across that word before. I have however seen in English sources words which equate to 'cutlass' (with various spelling) and 'hanger'. And falchion/fauchon of course.
James Darling As a coincidence, I was just reading that story today, and also wondered about that word. The miller is also described as wearing a "sheffeld thwittel", which I assume is a knife or dagger (Sheffield being a major steelmaking centre). It's worth bearing in mind that the two students in the story (also non-aristocrats) wear regular swords and bucklers, which indicates that the whole class distinction thing for different weapon types is worth taking with a pinch of salt.
Chaucer is great for that kind of detail, especially when you're wondering what arms people might wear or carry, either when traveling (in the prologue descriptions) or every day (in many of the tales). And also for variant spellings of buckler.
@scholagladiatoria: Being the trusted authority on bladed weapons, would you consider doing a video on the Katzbalger? There seems to be no ready information on youtube about it, nor on the rest of the internet according to my superficial searches...
Hi, regarding the origin of the Messer, I visited some medieval reenactors in germany (I am german, so sorry for the possible bad English). They told me, that the Messer/Langmesser origins in civilian self-defence. Swords and daggers, so war-weapons, were not allowed to be carried by non-soldiers non nobilities. But everyone was allowed to carry knives (→ single edge), so as soon as class of Bürger (citizens of cities, typically richer than normal civilians and with the obligation to participate in the defence of their cities and prepare for that) came up, they increased the proportions of the knife.
Yeah this seems to be an urban myth unfortunately. Commoners in Germany were carrying swords of all sorts - hence the famous longsword fencing traditions being carried out in fencing guilds by non-nobles.
oh. OK. thank you for the information. I always believed that this was only at home and in war-times. Similar to the Swiss reservists that have their assault rifle at home, but are not allowed to carry it in peace times.
Question about another kind of Knife. The Seaxe, Antiquity and Early Medieval Germanic Knife. Do you own any? And is their use very much different from other kinds of knives and daggers?
At about 9mins when you start jabbing...I think you just hit the nail on the head of why a Messer is bloody good in a front line battle scenario....it's not a butchers tool like it's predecessor, although I would offer that the earlier version was a 'work tool' which could be used both in the field and at war. having chopped through a albeit cooked pigs carcass with mine...it was an easy movement which required 'strength' I would say the Messer was for up close work in the push
Shad basically said that the change in handle design for the Messer was a way for the knife-making guilds to get away with making both knives AND swords and not getting into trouble with local sword-making guilds.
I believe the Messer began to become prominent because of the guild system in Germany. There were lots of guilds that were ordered to make only the goods they were assigned. So in this instance there was a swordsmiths guild or the like and a silverware/tool guild. Swordsmiths were only to make swords just as tool guilds could only make tools. Tools including knives. Restrictions were enacted in the 14th and 15th century Germany and only soldiers were allowed to carry swords. I think around the same time civilians were fearing a revolt or invasion from neighboring countries. But to make a long story short, messers were a result of a loophole that defined the construction of a knife which was something along the lines of 'a bladed tool whose handle is made of two slabs of material and the tang' while the falchion was 'a bladed weapon for killing with a crossguard and counterbalance (pommel).' So their wasn't a length requirement so tool guilds took advantage of the loophole in order to arm civilians and make more money. That's my take on it.
There are many theories why the "long knife" became popular but my favorite theory is a technical loophole in knife guild laws. Long story By building a sword akin to a knife a knife maker who is not allowed to make a sword, can make a long knife that is a sword when you see it. On paper a "long knife" is still a knife, but when you look at it, the long knife is a sword. That is how it started why did it become popular, personal preference. The idea that it was a legal loophole does sound viable until you remember that those enforcing the law will look at the weapon at a glance and not examine it to the letter of the law.
Two questions, if you don't mind. I. Would an experienced modern saber user be automatically good with a messer? II. If you had to choose between a gladius and a messer for modern day personal defence - and carry - which would it be and why?
any tips on how or where to buy riveted chainmail online? i'm afraid if i buy a coif it'll be too small or be poorly made. same goes with the cap to wear under it.
My great great grandfather brought a homemade messer when he came over from germany. It got passed down as a basic farm tool. It was used as a brush knife or machete. I imagine they were used in a similar fashion when they first started becoming popular. If you were a poor farmer, why wouldnt you own a multipurpose tool as opposed to a dedicated weapon that you have to maintain but rarely use?
Last time I read about that topic, there was some debate about what it meant exactly. Simply a knife maybe? The classic Langes Messer doesn't really seem to appear in art until about 1400 - perhaps a bit before, but not much.
Maybe it is talking about Bauenwehr. By the way I need to get one just because they look beautiful. Armory Marek makes nicely done artistic versions, I wouldn't order one for function however.
I would like to point out that the 3227a could be dated a few decades later than it conventional has been talhoffer.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/ms-g-b-f-18-a-modus-dimicandi-magistri-h-beringois/
I've taken a recent interest in the Messer. I tend to prefer the Messers which have a thinner and straighter blade rather than the cleaver like designs, mind.
Does anyone have any information on weather messer types where used in Scandinavia? Considering how large a part of Scandinavian warfare relied on german mercenarys.
Just to add a suggestion, perhaps a specialized blacksmith who made knives was commissioned to make a sword and he put on the handle he was used to making. The nagel seems to support the idea, as that's just how the guy knew how to make it. The idea would have spread because it worked, and it looked cool. Alternatively, someone used to using knives may have hired a blacksmith to forge a sword, perhaps going into military service temporarily rather than planning a career, and asked for that style of handle instead of a pommeled hilt. Another reason might be local laws which defined a sword from a knife by the style of hilt/handle, and weapons weren't allowed in cities, so the the knife handle made it legal with the explanation of, "This isn't a weapon, it's a tool!"
theres is a lot of swords that are one edge, from phillipines even in colonial and post colonial America, Machetes with son D guard and shorter ones, even an espada de ancha in northern México. Cheers ytou channel is osom.
Do you think the Langes Messer could be a further step in the evolution of the Seax? Some descriptions of the Long Seax seem to describe a Langes Messer with a less evolved hilt and were seen in the Germanic regions 3-4 hundred years earlier?
Not really - unless we consider the general purpose medieval knife a development of the seax. The Langes Messer to me is just a medieval eating/hunting knife hilt on a falchion (or big knife) blade.
I was just about to ask "how would a similar blade work with a cutlass guard?" and bam!, you showed the hanger… Also, "good at cutting, good at thrusting"… it's an anti-spadroon!
Reminds me a bit of evolution... At what specific generation did Species A change into Species B? Same goes for Messers, Hangers, Sabers, etc. There seems to be a slow evolution from one to another so its hard to classify some of these swords who look to be half and half.
Why did that blade shape come about? I can see a few reasons. First; it’s relatively short. It’s therefore viewed as a lot less threatening. Second; it’s quite broad and full flat ground, so while it’s short it’s a prodigious chopper. Which is exactly what you want for dispatching prey animals. Or poorly defended brigands trying to rob you. Third; it’s got an effective stabbing point. You aren’t going to run someone through with this point design, but it’s a lethal blow if you stab someone with it.
TIL Langes Messer can be constructed like a giant bowie knife. If Todd made one with a coffin-style hilt would that be Matt Easton's favorite sword of all time?
Yes I have, antique and modern. They vary a lot, so I cannot really answer that question concisely - it's like asking me to compare an arming sword with a sabre :-) In general the antique examples are smaller than the modern fantasy wushu versions.
Hm, may as well chip in here, since I looked a bit into this. Chinese sabers don't resemble western European weapons much, but that changes a lot once you go east. Some Hungarian and Byzantine sabers (paramerion in Byzantine case, Hungarian version was just called saber, but this specific subtype seems to have been mostly found in modern day Serbia and Bulgaria) look remarkably similar to early Chinese type of dao - liuye dao specifically. The blade mount by way of L-shaped piece of metal is the most prominent feature. If we go way back, to 700-900 AD, we see very first Avar sabers that are basically the same as early tang/song dynasty dao, up to and including a ring pommel. That suggests that these sword types (but not all single edged swords) came from central Eurasia. They even seem to evolve along similar lines until about 1000 AD when Hungarian sabers start to have very acute points (look at "Attila's" sabre, made in late 1050, IIRC). Unfortunately, this is a somewhat under-researched subject even for me, let alone someone who can only speak English (and latin doesn't help you here, unfortunately, since what research there is is published locally, so you need to speak Polish, Czech, Serbian, Bulgarian, Hungarian or Slovak, preferably more than one). Word of caution - early dao looks nothing like modern wushu dao, modern daos are falchions, early ones are sabers, if we dare to appropriate European terminology.
Many swords of both Eastern Europe and China look similar due to the influences of Mongol-Turkish influence. Single edged swords w/ slightly to moderately curved blades, built for balanced cut and thrust or slightly specialized towards cutting. In regards to the acute points of later Eastern European swords having more acute points, many Yanmaodaos (goose-quill sabers) and slightly curved Liuyedaos also had tips pretty effective for thrusting as well - especially Yanmaodaos. Not too much difference among these swords. In fact, chinese saber practitioners should be able to use these Eastern European sabers with just as much proficiency, as long as they don't have huge crossguards or complex hilts. With modern wushu daos, they are derived from Niu wei daos (oxtail sabers). The reason why this design of swords became popular is somewhat unclear, but they were originally popular as civilian weapons in the late Qing dynasty. Niu wei daos often have broad but thin tips that are very effective for carving up unarmored to lightly armored targets, and a unique blade design at the tip that assists in thrusting in certain contexts. The most likely reason the design became popular was probably due to their availability. Many chinese martial arts schools today practice their broadsword (a misnomer; it should really be called saber/single knife) forms with Niu wei daos, but in fact the techniques and forms themselves are derived from the practice of Liuyedaos.
These swords can hardly look similar because of mongol-turkish influence since they predate both mongols and turks, for the most part. Mongols and turks did very little to spread sabre across eastern Europe, since sabers were widely used there long before they appeared. If anything, they demonized them a little, especially Ottomans - not that it stopped anyone from using them that much. Who copied who is hard to prove since we have so little research in central Eurasia, similar designs suggest that it was sort of a group effort of nomadic tribes, or at least craftsmen exporting to nomadic tribes, and can't exactly be limited to one group. As for thrusting points, while some daos have points that make thrust possible, none of the main types have dedicated thrusting points like this (made c1050, wrongly attributed to Attila): s-media-cache- ak0.pinimg.com/originals/69/51/06/69510672ccc530 cbc00c870b4a8f5e03.jpg That's not even going into tips really dedicated to the whole thrusting thing, which are more or less copies of arming sword tips on sabre blades (examples from bulgaria, none of these have mongol hilts, mostly because these are from before 1200, you can see liuye dao method of blade attachment on them): media.snimka .bg/5132/0165 18757-big.jpg (links broken to circumvent rabid YT spam filters) As for techniques being useful with other culture's weapons, well, yes, they are still swords. That said, modern dao techniques focused more on chopping would go poorly with Attila saber, jian techniques would be far more applicable with it, but for the more choppy saber types with raised false edges, it would work pretty well.
Due to the Prague law from 15th century fencing masters had to register at knife makers guild. Is there any possible connection to the knife hilt? (if you are interested, I have a selection of small texts about fencing in 14. - 16th century in Bohemia and I'm willing to translate them in English.)
As far as the text goes, both Marcuses (longsword masters) and Federfechters (rapier masters (and yes Federschwerd was clearly a term for rapier, not training longsword) were supposed to register. However you couldn't be part of the guild, if you were only a master in one of the arts. Only then you could get hired for the job. (at least in Prague) Also the job itself was illegal. Therefore it was quite commonly done by Jews. There is even an account about a noble man hiring a sword master and through the whole text he refers to his position as "His Jew". (see Jew Lew manuscript) The last thing I wanted to mention here was, that commonly it was against the rules to let the masters fight in place of their clients. They were given 6 weeks and 4 days to train with them and gather information about their opponent for them, but took no part in the duel itself Lastly, I'm sorry, English is not my first language and I have no idea if the guild was cutlers guild ore knife makers guild. (I only know it as "nožířský cech", which could be both)
it seems to me that if you made the spine beefy, you could strike with the clip, and get an almost flanged mage effect. I wonder if it was ever employed that way?
I Googled " the Romance of Alexander" and the first image showed a sword much like your "Langmesser", but totally upside down, with the fuller along the straight edge, and a two-handed grip with knuckle-bow toward the curving edge(s). I have not seen this exact design elsewhere; how common would that have been?
It's funny, these hack and slash type single edged swords seem to be the most ubiquitous type of swords in history. So far we have seen afghan, german, indian, english, polish, Tia/Burmese, and Japanese examples just on your channel alone. It must be a very intuitive design.
you can use Messer techniques for a Falchion. But Messer is more about catching the opponents blade with the nagel and the striking or stabbing. Also, the longer handle is used to hook behind the opponents wrist/arms(if in grappeling distance) or to have stronger blows.so you will miss a lot of those if you try it with a Falchion
Enriff, I attended a workshop years ago that put forward the idea that you can perform "nagel" actions - or something similar to them - with a regular cross guard. In that workshop, which I wasn't leading and was years ago, they had us parry *almost* with the back edge of the weapon, giving us a bend in the wrist that did facilitate actions much like we see with the nagel. If memory serves - again, not my workshop and this was probably 2008 at the latest - they referenced a few passages in their source that mentions parrying with "an inverted hand". It held up pretty well in our sparring, but who knows?
as a knife maker i must say that a knife style/riveted handle is easier to make then a hiddentang with peened pommel "sword" handle.
Very much so - and with much more structural integrity too.
"You brought a knife to a gunfight?" - " No, I brought a Messer"
"Do yOu EveN SpEAk GerMAN BruH ?..."
Finally some Messer love from Matt!
The Messer has grown to become my absolute favourite weapon by far, possibly even eclipsing the sabre (though mostly because there's more fun stuff to do with it than in the sabre manuals - show me a sabre manual that teaches you how to play backgammon!), though it's quite a shame it's not a terribly popular weapon in HEMA today. Sure, there are people practicing it but it's not a famous weapon, most HEMA events don't do Messer tournaments as far as I know so there's obviously less demand for it than sabre, longsword or rapier.
I've been wondering that it might be because it's a distinctly German weapon so it never really appears in English-language pop culture so people don't know of it. Another idea is perhaps that full-contact sparring with it is quite unsafe as it involves a lot of arm locks and other grappling techniques. What do you think, Matt?
The messer is actually technically a type of sabre. Source: am German, know that shit.
Bauernwehr is a German word that combines the tow words bauern (farmers) and Wehr(in this context defense ). It works like the German word for fire brigade, which is Feuerwehr. As a help for the pronunciation, "au" is spoken like the "ow" in "wow", the "b" like in "breakfast" , "rn" is difficult to describe and "Wehr" is similar to "where". Just listen to examples of bauern and Feuerwehr and you will master it.
That is a thick messer! I prefer the long, thin ones myself. Also, Shadiversity did a video series on how Messers and Falchions are really the same thing, basing it on Elmslie's research and his Elmslie Typology. He also talks as to why the Messer appeared when Falchions already existed.
Absolutely loving the channel - thank you for making this Matt !!
Meas mór as Éirinn !
Big respect from Ireland !
I really don´t buy the idea of the messer being a way to get around medieval weapon laws.
Commoners are allowed to own swords to use them when they have to defend their home or when they follow their lord into war. They are also allowed to wear them when travelling, for self-defense. Only in "secured" areas, so in town, inside the city walls and so on, you have to store your sword at your house (or the house of your host). Only Nobles where allowed to walk around town with a Sword (and sometimes the middle and upper class of a city). That doesent really change from the 13th to the 15th century, so i don´t see why they would have waited till the 15th century to find a way around those laws.
Instead i think it´s for a practical reason: Swords get more and more thrust-centered as the 15th century goes on, to deal with armour (I´m for example thinking on the very narrow soldier´s sword from the wallace collection, that you and dr. Capwell talked about.).
You established in your older videos, that you can´t really make a sword that´s both awesome at cutting and awesome at thrusting while still being well balanced. You always have to trade one for the other.
So i think the Messer started as a civilian self-defense weapon. Because in a self-defense situation your attacker is most likely not gonna wear armour. Under these circumstances a very good cutting weapon (like a Messer) is far more usefull, than a sword that has been optimised for thrusting to deal with armour.
When Commoners where called to war, they most likely wouldn´t buy an extra sword for war, but use the sidearm they already owned, which means the messer. This would explain why messers start to get a clipped back point to get a little more of a chance against armour while still keeping most of the cutting power that made them good civilian self-defense weapons.
I´d be happy to know what you think of my theory.
I basically agree with everything you wrote :-)
@Benjamin
That's make quite a lot of sense.
Its always refreshing to read your intelligent comments. On facebook and here too :D
Underrated post.
"I really don´t buy the idea of the messer being a way to get around medieval weapon laws"
Shadiversity's messer and falchion series says very much the same thing considering that it was a legal requirment for people to own and cary swords in this period. Instead he explains a different theory proposed by James Elmslie in part 3 of his video series.
Thank you very much, one of the first times I hear someone on youtube talking about present day Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France,... in a more correct way. Well done.
My opinion is that the lineage of the messer goes all the way back to the seax. Langseax means the same thing as langmesser and fills basically the same niche.
Super interesting factoid about the nagle coming from smaller peasant knives. The problem with a crossguard on a knife is it severely degrades the knife as a tool. But putting the cross on the side instead of in line with the blade gets it out of the way for using the knife as a tool and not a weapon.
Matt Lentzner The words "Messer" and "Sax" are actually related. Both stem from the germanic word "Messisahsa".
Guys you all really need to watch SHADIVERSITY's falchion and messer series because so many of the questions in these comment are answered by him. In Part 2 of his series he talks about how the Seax couldn't have been the genesis of thefalchion. The time periods and locations don't match up.
Damien Rivers Shad is talking nonsense. We have a continuity of single edged blades from the sax till the Messer. We have linguistic evidence that "Messer" and "Sax" stem from the same germanic word. We have the word "sahs" (Sax) in middle high german language. Shad is a halfwit.
A halfwit?!?!?! Funny because what Shad is saying is exactly what James Elmslie says on the subject, the very man who Matt Easton here says is the leading authority on this subject. The falchion is NOT an evolution of the Seax. Did you even watch Shad's video or are you one of those morons who insult and attack people who do great work because of your own inferiority complex? I'm not saying Shad get's everything right but he has the intellectual honesty to admit when he's wrong, the very thing that led him to make his falchion and messer series, something so obviously beyond a pathetic troll like you. What I find hilarious about you is this; if Matt Easton would say the falchion is not an evolution of the Seax, which he would considering he has already admitted that he defers to Mr Elmslie's experties regardning falchions, you would accept it happliy. Meaning you're guided by bias and identity politics over facts and evidance, calling Shad a halfwit. You're a pathetic worm for an intellectual.
Damien Rivers Please. I know James. I disagree with him on this subject. I gave you arguments. I would like to hear James' opinion on them but Shad simply said that one bladed weapons disappeared for a period of time which simply is not true.
We have archeological evidence too:
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e1/8a/ff/e18aff74596fffeadce13580787b9f93.jpg
I've watched this video like 10 times now. I just love messers so much. You should make more...
Shad pretty much confirmed my theory about the origin: it's a question of *guild-regulations*. You had a blacksmith, a knifesmith and a swordsmith (and armourer etc.). They specialised on different items and with a blacksmith forge (for producing nails and horseshoes) and some mediocre iron, you cannot make longswords, or plate armour. They would bend or break in use. While swords were for the most part *not illegal* to own, they were expensive and a oversized kitchen knife (Bauernwehr) or Bowieknife (Grossmesser) might just be better for you. However, knifemakers started to infringe the territory/copyright of swordmakers, which they didn't appreciate. I assume that the knifemakers marketed their weapons as Bauernwehr and Grossmesser and won enough customers, so that the elite guild was beaten. These weapons were very good after all. You could immediately tell that the hilt is *rock-solid and it's full tang.* They are moreover very good cutters and backup weapons. Thus even the aristocracy started developing interest in them.
Actually, due to the simple construction of a messer they were simply more affordable for the working man.
You're probably right, that makes a lot of since
Definitely. “This isn't a sword, it's a knife" wouldn't convince a town guard or JP if swords were restricted, which they weren't, and any loophole of that nature would be easy to fix even if there were real rule of law, which there wasn't. I mean, substituting “bladed weapons above X inches of length" for "swords" would certainly have occurred to someone.
However, the point of hilt construction is just the kind of argument that might carry in the equivalent of a patent lawsuit, especially if those in power are wary of the guilds' influence.
After this were established, 'real' sword hilts would for a while be more prestigious, but eventually quality and showiness would be separated from technicalities. Hilt construction as a means of socially distinguishing between the two would become irrelevant to consumers. However, in the meanwhile the knife-like hilt would gain sales by being cheaper, which would result in a bigger market share at the lower end of the price spectrum.
@@janjoschafinger5749 I would assume knifes are something every blacksmith does a lot, and if your going around asking blacksmiths to make swords, then having a knife like construction is very intuitive for any blacksmith. Since its a blade heavy cutting sword, its also very intuitive to use for people that dont know how to swordfight. So it could be possible these are essentially swords made by people who arent weaponsmiths to people who arent swordmen.
@@lssnow8195 I guess that might well be a factor, but I still find the "license argument" more convincing. The Messer turned up exactly when and where guild structures were at their highest point yet started to prove a hindrance in some contexts. Where are the French, Spanish, English, Scottish, Russian Messers? Wherever a decent bladesmith could make a swordlike weapon without getting into trouble over giving it a sword tang, no swordlike weapons with knife tangs were made, it seems.
And sure, a Smith who's not a sword specialist making swordlike weapons would mainly sell to the common infantryman -someone who's not really a swordsman.
This, too, is quite compatible with my initial thesis: if such a thing were done, sooner or later the product as such would gain prestige, some of its makers would become specialists and gain reputation. The Messer would, thus, become more sophisticated, more respectable -and better. Isn't that what we see?
Hey Matt, nice video thoroughly enjoyed it. Bauernwehr means farmers-defence (from: sich wehren/to defend oneself) As for the pronunciation, try to say Bauer(n) like in Jack Bauer, same word [farmer(s)] and Wehr like wear.
I’ve always loved messers. The long sword sized ones are super cool as well.
Nice work Todd! That is a beautiful friggin blade!
"...we see a whole buttload of these falchions in use..." Is that a metric or Imperial buttload? I'm not up to date on my scholarly terminology.
Definitely imperial. A metric equivalent would probably be an ass tonne. :P
Oh, like that guys they named the car after? Ass tonne Martin?
BUTT LOAD.???...omfg.....they must be atracted to the....load stone..?
Depends if it's a European or African buttload...
100 buttloads equals one fuck tonne...
I had no idea you got swords of this type that were sharpened on the "inward" edge! That's neat, I've always liked choppy kukri-style swords and knives and wondered why they weren't more widespread in combat use (considering the design is very common and effective in tools).
YESSS! another 20 min+ video from scholagladiatoria!
I love messers. I'm a big modern fix blade knife guy. So when I heard about the messers I can't get enough.
Just note to Bohemia:
Bohemia is exonym. It is basically latin name for Czech kingdom. In Czech, we always were Czech kingdom (Království České) and now we are Czech Republic (Česká Republika).
Wow, I had no idea! - thanks.
Actually... the name "Bohemia" derives from the name of the Boii, a Celtic tribe who inhabited that area towards the La Tène period. The toponym Boiohaemum, first attested by Tacitus (56-120AD), is commonly taken to mean "home of the Boii" (from the Germanic root *haima- meaning "world, home"). So while it may be seen as an exonym to the slavs who later immigrated to Bohemia (375-568AD) , it is in fact the original name, in so far as such things exist...
Bauernwehr...you slaughtered that poor word it may never recover
I know... I usually try to avoid that word, but in this video I just had to refer to it.
Its kinda pronounced "(to)bow - earn - wear"
... and it litterally means " peasent's defense"
@Shikami42 Ha ha :D
Oh Bauernwehr! I thought it would be a dutch word and that's the reason I did not understand it
The hilt/handle on the Lange Messer was gorgeous, it would look incredible on a Bowie. I'd pay good money for that combination.
Gods that is a Beautiful Messer! Love Todd!
I've been waiting for your Messer video. It did not disappoint. Excellent info, and well presented.
I especially found your points about the Center of Percussion and the way blade shape dictates use interesting. I hadn't ever considered the center of percussion of the Messer versus a longsword and how the location (in absolute terms) is roughly the same on the two, meaning in the cut they are often effectively the same length of blade.
As for where you discuss the effect of shape and how we see similar techniques and blades, well I discovered just how true that was when I showed some videos demonstrating Messer techniques, particularly displacement/versetzen to a friend who has studied Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and other Japanese schools, and he learned Wakizashi techniques that were nearly identical to the Messer techniques, but which developed completely independently of each other. How did it happen? Well as you said, similar blade shapes and lengths. The Wakizashi and Messer are both single-handed single-edged blades roughly as long as an average person's arm, so similar techniques were developed.
Scott Slack I was surprised to see the similarities as well. There are some fundamentals that seem to be universal.
Bastian Koppenhofer Wait a minute, you're one of the guys from Historiches Messerfechten Mainz. It was your videos I showed to my friend that has studied Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Since I have the opportunity, I've got to thank you for those videos. The Messer interests me more than any other sword, and your videos helped me to learn more about how to use it.
Scott Slack Thank you! Much appreciated. There will be even more videos coming up. I'm so glad you like them.
My understanding is that the Nagel is just a common way of attaching the guard to the rest of the hilt, as a pin or "nail" going through both the blade and guard. Later in Langes Messer we see it starting to get longer and wider and become a form of hand protection (either in combat or otherwise) and then eventually developing in to early shell guards.
I'm super late to the party but a historian once told me the Messer is a Messer (with that particular hilt & handle) because of guilds. Guilds were very well organized and quite powerful in the regions you were talking about. Knifes were made by a different guild than swords. So the Knifemakers, wanting to expand created a knife (as by the hilt) that just happened to be for fighting.
I suppose a langes messer is pretty similar to a long seax, esp the one they found at the site of the Battle of Stamford Bridge. It has a sword hilt, then a freaking huge seax blade. And by huge, I mean 2.5x larger than average. It has a needle-point, I imagine to deal with chainmail. The long seax is probably the direct ancestor of the langes messer, the name is even the same in meaning, and they're both Germanic. The only major difference is that seax are narrower and dead straight. I think the curvature of messers is because it is easier to forge a curved blade. As someone that used to make knives for cash, the straight ones took 3x as much work as a curved blade. The reason is that keeping a single edged blade straight means putting it edge side down and striking the spine with your hammer. Because the cross section between the hammer and anvil is way thicker than when only working the bevel, it requires more force to move. Maintaining a thick spine results in a gentler curve because the greater mass resists the expansion of the thinner part near the edge. If you don't maintain the thickness at the spine, it is pretty easy to make a chakram with only a 3oz ball peen. But if you have metal an inch thick, it takes a sledge hammer 10-15 blows to move it noticeably.
> 1:40 "In more depth than I'm intending to go through here"
> *22 minutes and 2 seconds later*
You must be new here
AFAIK, the main subtypes of the messer (probably) go something like this:
Bauernwehr (one-handed messer with narrower blade), Grosse Messer (one-handed messer with wider, almost falchion-style blade), Langes Messer (one-handed or hand-and-a-half longsword-like version) and Kriegsmesser (two-handed, curved, almost sabre-like version).
P.S. Messers were also used in the Kingdom of Hungary, alongside late falchions and other single-edged infantry swords. Hungary had a mostly German and Italian cultural influence when it came to foreign influences in its late-medieval weapon developments.
As a German, no matter how often I hear it, I find it bewildering.
Massive video. Loved it!
"Bauernwehr"-try it this way: Bourn (spelled as "devour")-wear (without slipping into the "A"-sound but keeping the "E" the whole time until you switch unto the "R" :-).
That messer looks like a Bowie knife on steroids.
Oh Matt, you never cease to impress.
You just invoked the Rule of Cool.
I'm not going to argue with you and I agree entirely on that. The part about them being directly comparable? Maybe. The issue I have with this comparison is that I know messers have clear sources that don't seem to exist for the falchion. It feels far too regional, too specifically related to an area and a set of laws.
I don't think that ever applied to the falchion.
At least, I think so for the moment. There's holes in that argument, since we don't know what common sword fighting actually was or looked like.
Interestingly, for an everyday knife having only a nagel and no cross allows you to use the pinch grip as used by chefs and for many other applications while still retaining the anti slip properties. Also the nagel is positioned in a meatier part of the hand than a cross guard like on a Bowie so is possibly more comfortable however I own neither so conjecture alert.
As Matt moved around the sword, a glare flickered across my wall and for a second I thought it was from the video.
I'm still watching through your back catalogue, but if you haven't done it I'd love a video on the Swiss saber.
They were not always light there is atleast one well documented Messer, probably a Hunting Sword, that weighs 1.36kg on a length from 76cm.
The nail was often used to fix the crossguard on the blade, because of the full with tang the guard can't be really wedged on like on swords with a tapering tang.
You should link the videos of Shad on this subject.
Anyway, nice video as always.
I have to second the opinion on Messer not being a sword. My information is, though swords were pretty common in those times, common people weren't usually allowed to carry swords in public in times of peace. They only were allowed to legally get out their swords in case of an "official" call to arms. So in times of peace instead of having a sword in their belt they carried their "tool for work", their Messer around. Makes sense to me.
And for completion the differences between Messer are the following three and imo the most crucial:
* The handle/hilt doesn't have a pommel but a tang and rivets (see modern kitchen knives for example)
* The Messer only has a one-edged blade (and a short edge on the back of the blade)
* Messers usually were having a "Nagel" or "Wehrnagel" on the crossguard
I'd love to see you do a video, in a similar fashion to this one, on the katzbalger. Cool and interesting sword which i know very little about. Mainly because you have not yet done a video about it.
My facsimile of the Codex Wallerstein is buried in storage because I'm in the middle of moving right now, but I want to say that the German text refers to the Messers depicted therein as "dussack." Not to say there isn't a separate weapon we should call a dussack because nomenclature changes and becomes more defined over time and all, but I wonder if dussack wasn't just an early German term for a sword having a blade of this type, whether falchion, messer, or what we would call a dussack today.
Directions for use:
1) Remove from protective covering.
2) Apply to opponent.
I see you've played knifey-spoony before
Love that messer.
Love the Dundee quote at the beginning :)
The hanger just seems pretty much like a carry version of a cutlass with less hand protection.
Its a good looking blade!
More messers vids please! I wanted a falchion so bad I actually made a clippoint one with a left-handed nagle from a machete. Not the best but I am saving up! They are very neat...
I own that exact Messer. I bought it at a Las Vegas NV USA Renaissance Fair. Epic! Exactly that sword your holding. Wow. This was 5 years ago?!
The hilt construction was a product of different guilds restricting who were allowed to craft certain kinds of things and other guilds finding ways to get around these restrictions. Most notably knife making guilds making swords and calling them knives so the sword making guilds had no legal means to stop them.
Just to add another data point -- in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, in the Reeve's Tale the miller carries a Panade , which is defined in the first Middle English dictionary I could find as "noun: cutlass, a short sword with a slightly curved blade". I haven't been able to find any images of surviving examples, but it's clearly an example of a non aristocrat carrying either a hanger or something messer like in the late 14th century.
That's very interesting. I've not come across that word before. I have however seen in English sources words which equate to 'cutlass' (with various spelling) and 'hanger'. And falchion/fauchon of course.
James Darling As a coincidence, I was just reading that story today, and also wondered about that word. The miller is also described as wearing a "sheffeld thwittel", which I assume is a knife or dagger (Sheffield being a major steelmaking centre). It's worth bearing in mind that the two students in the story (also non-aristocrats) wear regular swords and bucklers, which indicates that the whole class distinction thing for different weapon types is worth taking with a pinch of salt.
Chaucer is great for that kind of detail, especially when you're wondering what arms people might wear or carry, either when traveling (in the prologue descriptions) or every day (in many of the tales). And also for variant spellings of buckler.
@scholagladiatoria: Being the trusted authority on bladed weapons, would you consider doing a video on the Katzbalger? There seems to be no ready information on youtube about it, nor on the rest of the internet according to my superficial searches...
Looks like it would be useful down on the allotment for keeping the brambles in order.
Very interesting! I would love to hear your opinion on mensur and also on the spada da lato. Cheers!
More on Messer please!
Gives me new insight into the history of Nazi Germany - the Night of the Long Knives. Thank you!
Hi,
regarding the origin of the Messer, I visited some medieval reenactors in germany (I am german, so sorry for the possible bad English). They told me, that the Messer/Langmesser origins in civilian self-defence. Swords and daggers, so war-weapons, were not allowed to be carried by non-soldiers non nobilities. But everyone was allowed to carry knives (→ single edge), so as soon as class of Bürger (citizens of cities, typically richer than normal civilians and with the obligation to participate in the defence of their cities and prepare for that) came up, they increased the proportions of the knife.
Yeah this seems to be an urban myth unfortunately. Commoners in Germany were carrying swords of all sorts - hence the famous longsword fencing traditions being carried out in fencing guilds by non-nobles.
oh. OK. thank you for the information.
I always believed that this was only at home and in war-times. Similar to the Swiss reservists that have their assault rifle at home, but are not allowed to carry it in peace times.
Is todd holding Mrs Easton hostage in exchange for Matt to do reviews of his stuff?
I'n all seriousness though great video as always.
The blade seems a bit reminiscent of a seax, which was used in Frisia and Lower Saxony as well...
Question about another kind of Knife. The Seaxe, Antiquity and Early Medieval Germanic Knife. Do you own any? And is their use very much different from other kinds of knives and daggers?
Great video. Please do a video on the Maciejowski Bible Chopper and if it is a good weapon for war or skirmishes.
Das ist ein herliches Messer danke schön für das zeigen dein Fan aus Deutschland. Thanks for showing a fan from Germany ;-)
At about 9mins when you start jabbing...I think you just hit the nail on the head of why a Messer is bloody good in a front line battle scenario....it's not a butchers tool like it's predecessor, although I would offer that the earlier version was a 'work tool' which could be used both in the field and at war. having chopped through a albeit cooked pigs carcass with mine...it was an easy movement which required 'strength' I would say the Messer was for up close work in the push
Shad basically said that the change in handle design for the Messer was a way for the knife-making guilds to get away with making both knives AND swords and not getting into trouble with local sword-making guilds.
I believe the Messer began to become prominent because of the guild system in Germany. There were lots of guilds that were ordered to make only the goods they were assigned. So in this instance there was a swordsmiths guild or the like and a silverware/tool guild. Swordsmiths were only to make swords just as tool guilds could only make tools. Tools including knives. Restrictions were enacted in the 14th and 15th century Germany and only soldiers were allowed to carry swords. I think around the same time civilians were fearing a revolt or invasion from neighboring countries. But to make a long story short, messers were a result of a loophole that defined the construction of a knife which was something along the lines of 'a bladed tool whose handle is made of two slabs of material and the tang' while the falchion was 'a bladed weapon for killing with a crossguard and counterbalance (pommel).' So their wasn't a length requirement so tool guilds took advantage of the loophole in order to arm civilians and make more money. That's my take on it.
It's not something I have personally researched, but it sounds plausible.
Gotta agree.
There are many theories why the "long knife" became popular but my favorite theory is a technical loophole in knife guild laws.
Long story
By building a sword akin to a knife a knife maker who is not allowed to make a sword, can make a long knife that is a sword when you see it. On paper a "long knife" is still a knife, but when you look at it, the long knife is a sword.
That is how it started why did it become popular, personal preference.
The idea that it was a legal loophole does sound viable until you remember that those enforcing the law will look at the weapon at a glance and not examine it to the letter of the law.
But Matt of the two which do you prefer the handling characteristics there of? Assuming near identical blade geometry.
Thanks for the video Matt. Do you know where someone might be able to view the 14th Century Romance of Alexander manuscript that you talk about?
when he talks about length and width I always feel a certain way
I've had an attraction to the Longes Messer for awhile now and that is the style that I like. Where would a good place be to order one of these?
Two questions, if you don't mind.
I. Would an experienced modern saber user be automatically good with a messer?
II. If you had to choose between a gladius and a messer for modern day personal defence - and carry - which would it be and why?
any tips on how or where to buy riveted chainmail online? i'm afraid if i buy a coif it'll be too small or be poorly made. same goes with the cap to wear under it.
My great great grandfather brought a homemade messer when he came over from germany. It got passed down as a basic farm tool. It was used as a brush knife or machete. I imagine they were used in a similar fashion when they first started becoming popular. If you were a poor farmer, why wouldnt you own a multipurpose tool as opposed to a dedicated weapon that you have to maintain but rarely use?
Well MS_3227a talks about the messer as one of the weapons that Lichtenauer taught to his students, as a basic weapon.
Last time I read about that topic, there was some debate about what it meant exactly. Simply a knife maybe? The classic Langes Messer doesn't really seem to appear in art until about 1400 - perhaps a bit before, but not much.
Maybe it is talking about Bauenwehr. By the way I need to get one just because they look beautiful. Armory Marek makes nicely done artistic versions, I wouldn't order one for function however.
I would like to point out that the 3227a could be dated a few decades later than it conventional has been
talhoffer.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/ms-g-b-f-18-a-modus-dimicandi-magistri-h-beringois/
scholagladiatoria
One way to look at it, the langes messer is the AR-15 of the period... capable of military grade mayhem, but carried by the average Johann. ;-)
I've taken a recent interest in the Messer. I tend to prefer the Messers which have a thinner and straighter blade rather than the cleaver like designs, mind.
Looked on Tods site........Wow.............Wow.
Does anyone have any information on weather messer types where used in Scandinavia?
Considering how large a part of Scandinavian warfare relied on german mercenarys.
Matt, Would you consider making a video about the Swiss sabre?
I wonder if the reverse bladed version had a thicker less flexible point for the thrust because it was on the same side as the back edge?
Does it have a down side? Do we know how good it works in duels or against other sword/weapons of its era?
Just to add a suggestion, perhaps a specialized blacksmith who made knives was commissioned to make a sword and he put on the handle he was used to making. The nagel seems to support the idea, as that's just how the guy knew how to make it. The idea would have spread because it worked, and it looked cool.
Alternatively, someone used to using knives may have hired a blacksmith to forge a sword, perhaps going into military service temporarily rather than planning a career, and asked for that style of handle instead of a pommeled hilt.
Another reason might be local laws which defined a sword from a knife by the style of hilt/handle, and weapons weren't allowed in cities, so the the knife handle made it legal with the explanation of, "This isn't a weapon, it's a tool!"
theres is a lot of swords that are one edge, from phillipines even in colonial and post colonial America, Machetes with son D guard and shorter ones, even an espada de ancha in northern México. Cheers ytou channel is osom.
Do you think the Langes Messer could be a further step in the evolution of the Seax? Some descriptions of the Long Seax seem to describe a Langes Messer with a less evolved hilt and were seen in the Germanic regions 3-4 hundred years earlier?
Not really - unless we consider the general purpose medieval knife a development of the seax. The Langes Messer to me is just a medieval eating/hunting knife hilt on a falchion (or big knife) blade.
Fair enough. Thanks.
I was just about to ask "how would a similar blade work with a cutlass guard?" and bam!, you showed the hanger…
Also, "good at cutting, good at thrusting"… it's an anti-spadroon!
I had the tang snap on a spadroon once. So I cut the point off and forged a tang onto it and made it into a spear, and the other bit became a cutlass.
That hanger you showed with the simple knuckle bow is nice . What is it?
Reminds me a bit of evolution... At what specific generation did Species A change into Species B? Same goes for Messers, Hangers, Sabers, etc. There seems to be a slow evolution from one to another so its hard to classify some of these swords who look to be half and half.
more about messers pls :)
Is there a benefit to having the hilt off-center to the base of the blade (kitchen knife style) unlike the falchion?
That's a good question worthy of a video.
Sweet.
Could you do a video about Gendarmes?
Why did that blade shape come about? I can see a few reasons.
First; it’s relatively short. It’s therefore viewed as a lot less threatening.
Second; it’s quite broad and full flat ground, so while it’s short it’s a prodigious chopper. Which is exactly what you want for dispatching prey animals. Or poorly defended brigands trying to rob you.
Third; it’s got an effective stabbing point. You aren’t going to run someone through with this point design, but it’s a lethal blow if you stab someone with it.
About as close as you can get to a sword-sized bowie knife. Very nice.
TIL Langes Messer can be constructed like a giant bowie knife.
If Todd made one with a coffin-style hilt would that be Matt Easton's favorite sword of all time?
Hey Matt, have you ever gotten your hands on a Chinese sabre? Any thoughts on how it compares to European ones?
Yes I have, antique and modern. They vary a lot, so I cannot really answer that question concisely - it's like asking me to compare an arming sword with a sabre :-) In general the antique examples are smaller than the modern fantasy wushu versions.
scholagladiatoria the coldsteel Dadao is pretty much the same with it. And it can still be found from many photos. This is actually a easy start.
Hm, may as well chip in here, since I looked a bit into this. Chinese sabers don't resemble western European weapons much, but that changes a lot once you go east. Some Hungarian and Byzantine sabers (paramerion in Byzantine case, Hungarian version was just called saber, but this specific subtype seems to have been mostly found in modern day Serbia and Bulgaria) look remarkably similar to early Chinese type of dao - liuye dao specifically. The blade mount by way of L-shaped piece of metal is the most prominent feature.
If we go way back, to 700-900 AD, we see very first Avar sabers that are basically the same as early tang/song dynasty dao, up to and including a ring pommel. That suggests that these sword types (but not all single edged swords) came from central Eurasia. They even seem to evolve along similar lines until about 1000 AD when Hungarian sabers start to have very acute points (look at "Attila's" sabre, made in late 1050, IIRC).
Unfortunately, this is a somewhat under-researched subject even for me, let alone someone who can only speak English (and latin doesn't help you here, unfortunately, since what research there is is published locally, so you need to speak Polish, Czech, Serbian, Bulgarian, Hungarian or Slovak, preferably more than one).
Word of caution - early dao looks nothing like modern wushu dao, modern daos are falchions, early ones are sabers, if we dare to appropriate European terminology.
Many swords of both Eastern Europe and China look similar due to the influences of Mongol-Turkish influence. Single edged swords w/ slightly to moderately curved blades, built for balanced cut and thrust or slightly specialized towards cutting. In regards to the acute points of later Eastern European swords having more acute points, many Yanmaodaos (goose-quill sabers) and slightly curved Liuyedaos also had tips pretty effective for thrusting as well - especially Yanmaodaos. Not too much difference among these swords. In fact, chinese saber practitioners should be able to use these Eastern European sabers with just as much proficiency, as long as they don't have huge crossguards or complex hilts.
With modern wushu daos, they are derived from Niu wei daos (oxtail sabers). The reason why this design of swords became popular is somewhat unclear, but they were originally popular as civilian weapons in the late Qing dynasty. Niu wei daos often have broad but thin tips that are very effective for carving up unarmored to lightly armored targets, and a unique blade design at the tip that assists in thrusting in certain contexts. The most likely reason the design became popular was probably due to their availability.
Many chinese martial arts schools today practice their broadsword (a misnomer; it should really be called saber/single knife) forms with Niu wei daos, but in fact the techniques and forms themselves are derived from the practice of Liuyedaos.
These swords can hardly look similar because of mongol-turkish influence since they predate both mongols and turks, for the most part. Mongols and turks did very little to spread sabre across eastern Europe, since sabers were widely used there long before they appeared. If anything, they demonized them a little, especially Ottomans - not that it stopped anyone from using them that much.
Who copied who is hard to prove since we have so little research in central Eurasia, similar designs suggest that it was sort of a group effort of nomadic tribes, or at least craftsmen exporting to nomadic tribes, and can't exactly be limited to one group.
As for thrusting points, while some daos have points that make thrust possible, none of the main types have dedicated thrusting points like this (made c1050, wrongly attributed to Attila):
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That's not even going into tips really dedicated to the whole thrusting thing, which are more or less copies of arming sword tips on sabre blades (examples from bulgaria, none of these have mongol hilts, mostly because these are from before 1200, you can see liuye dao method of blade attachment on them): media.snimka
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(links broken to circumvent rabid YT spam filters)
As for techniques being useful with other culture's weapons, well, yes, they are still swords. That said, modern dao techniques focused more on chopping would go poorly with Attila saber, jian techniques would be far more applicable with it, but for the more choppy saber types with raised false edges, it would work pretty well.
Due to the Prague law from 15th century fencing masters had to register at knife makers guild. Is there any possible connection to the knife hilt?
(if you are interested, I have a selection of small texts about fencing in 14. - 16th century in Bohemia and I'm willing to translate them in English.)
Vojtěch Nosek IIRC one of the MarxBruder or Federfechter were associated with the cutlers guild
As far as the text goes, both Marcuses (longsword masters) and Federfechters (rapier masters (and yes Federschwerd was clearly a term for rapier, not training longsword) were supposed to register. However you couldn't be part of the guild, if you were only a master in one of the arts. Only then you could get hired for the job.
(at least in Prague)
Also the job itself was illegal. Therefore it was quite commonly done by Jews. There is even an account about a noble man hiring a sword master and through the whole text he refers to his position as "His Jew". (see Jew Lew manuscript)
The last thing I wanted to mention here was, that commonly it was against the rules to let the masters fight in place of their clients. They were given 6 weeks and 4 days to train with them and gather information about their opponent for them, but took no part in the duel itself
Lastly, I'm sorry, English is not my first language and I have no idea if the guild was cutlers guild ore knife makers guild. (I only know it as "nožířský cech", which could be both)
it seems to me that if you made the spine beefy, you could strike with the clip, and get an almost flanged mage effect. I wonder if it was ever employed that way?
I Googled " the Romance of Alexander" and the first image showed a sword much like your "Langmesser", but totally upside down, with the fuller along the straight edge, and a two-handed grip with knuckle-bow toward the curving edge(s). I have not seen this exact design elsewhere; how common would that have been?
Commented too early in the vid....sorry!
It's funny, these hack and slash type single edged swords seem to be the most ubiquitous type of swords in history. So far we have seen afghan, german, indian, english, polish, Tia/Burmese, and Japanese examples just on your channel alone. It must be a very intuitive design.
These and straight double-edged blades, yes.
I'm not aware of any falchion fencing treatise. Would you say we could reliably adopt langmesser and saber sources as substitute falchion's ones?
zerozerosud God, I hope so!
zerozerosud God, I hope so!
Yes for langes messer, though note that what are usually called falchions were usually used with shields.
you can use Messer techniques for a Falchion. But Messer is more about catching the opponents blade with the nagel and the striking or stabbing. Also, the longer handle is used to hook behind the opponents wrist/arms(if in grappeling distance) or to have stronger blows.so you will miss a lot of those if you try it with a Falchion
Enriff, I attended a workshop years ago that put forward the idea that you can perform "nagel" actions - or something similar to them - with a regular cross guard. In that workshop, which I wasn't leading and was years ago, they had us parry *almost* with the back edge of the weapon, giving us a bend in the wrist that did facilitate actions much like we see with the nagel. If memory serves - again, not my workshop and this was probably 2008 at the latest - they referenced a few passages in their source that mentions parrying with "an inverted hand". It held up pretty well in our sparring, but who knows?