How to Train Your Brass Section
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มี.ค. 2022
- A look at how John Powell uses his massive brass section in How To Train Your Dragon.
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The orchestral score to How To Train Your Dragon has a huge brass section: 1 tuba, 2 bass trombones, 4 tenor trombones, 4 trumpets, and 12 french horns!
In this video we look at the moments where the composer uses the entire brass section together so learn how he gets that blockbuster cinematic sound with his orchestration!
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Despite being always biased as a horn player I still think this is a criminally underrated and underrecognized score.
As someone who plays 0 orchestral instrumentats, I think it is one of the best film scores ever written. In the realm of greatness where arguing for specific placements is moot because it's all so good.
Yeah I actually went back and watched the movies again just to see the parts with the music. I know you can find it in other places but the whole thing is just so well made!
As someone who plays both f horn and viola/violins these pieces are amazing
Da horn play da good vibrations yes yes.
As someone who play a double horn..... YES
I still don’t know how “The Social Network” won the Oscar for best original score over “How to Train Your Dragon”. I know nothing about composing and music, but the soundtrack to HTTYG is phenomenal.
I didn't know about that til this comment. I think that's a real shame as I just watched the social network and don't remember any of the music at all. On the other hand I think the score for how to train your dragon is very memorable and dramatic and dare I say, iconic. This is why I don't watch the Oscars lol.
I bet it was close. Social Netwrok actually has a great soundtrack though. The music is pretty simplistic but it doesn’t get in the way of the movie at all. It is more felt than heard and adds to the movie even if you don’t realize it. I think both choices are amazing and if HTTYG won, I think there wouldn’t be many complaints.
I know a ton about soundtracks and I can tell you How To Train Your Dragon is phenomenal. The way he uses the themes of his characters to enhance the story is amazing and John Powell made adorable score that is very loveable.
Forget about the Oscars. A great score will always be remembered by the people who actually appreciate scores.
The problem is that it's like trying to see who can win between a pro golfer and a pro basket-baller. Both soundtracks are great in massively different ways. If we're going for raw composition, HTTYD may be king, but there's far more to music these days than raw composition. You're dismissing Trent Reznor and Atticus Russ here. They bring to the table what an orchestra can't. Dreamy, spacey, ambient electronic textures and sound design, a lot of which were pretty unique for back then (and even still). I'm re-listening to both soundtracks right now, and if I had to pick a winner for unique/fresh flavours, I'm picking The Social Network all day long. As great as HTTYD is, it's still familiar sounding. It could fit in a million adventure orchestral films (IMO) and not feel out of place. I wouldn't dismiss the Social Network as weak composition either though. The beauty is that (for me anyway) we can enjoy both soundtracks, and both really are true ear candy.
I worked on a Disney movie which was scored by John Powell, at around the same time period as "How to Train Your Dragon." Powell's comments on his plan for the score included that he believed woodwinds and trumpets were out of fashion, and should be used sparingly, and not as lead sounds. This aligns with how, in your analysis here, the trumpets are used less than the other brass instruments, mostly for brief ornamentation or rhythmic hits.
That is really interesting thanks for sharing! I wonder now that we're 12 years later if tastes are changing again
That's a pretty common take though. In many modern idioms, synths have taken over the 'coloring' role from the woodwinds. Trumpets have specific connotations (e.g. military, heroic) as well, which are generally less called for nowadays. I would actually say that HTTYD is fairly traditional, e.g. closer to the John Williams idiom than Hans Zimmer, although with a modern flavour (for reasons mentioned).
was it Horton Hears a who???
@@holdeenyo8914 Nope, that wasn't made by Disney :)
Was it Bolt?
Powell basically treats his brass like a tuned percussion section when making these intense action cues.
Hey, good to see you here. And yes, they can be pretty intense. Lasse Vogt from the pocast "Track Swap" calls him “the horn king” for the way he uses them.
@@FilmScoreandMore Always great to see you too! :)). Yeah, Powell loves his large horn ensembles. Now he uses 6 in all his scores but there was a time in the 00's when he would slap 12 horns on every score haha.
BTW I really admire your thematic breakdowns in the new HTTYD2 scorebook. Really great analysis!
@@SamuelStalderOST Interesting, I didn’t know he used 12 horns in other scores. And thanks, it was quite an exciting opportunity to contribute to that book. I’ve had thoughts about some of those themes for a long time that I haven’t put into videos yet (but some are coming soon) and now they’re written right in the book. It’s really something.
What made you stop?
As a horn player that “12 French horns” blew me away lol
I’m used to there being no more than 4 in a band
We only had 1!
We have 1... brass. One trumpet.
@@gripen777 Omg how big is your band?
Through most of my band in school we had 1 French horn to balance out the other 70 some odd people (including our heavy metal percussionists).
@@mouhiazeck I can't say how relatively small it is because tbh I haven't been in a bigger band but there are like 16 of us. One oboe, one clarinet, 3 flutes, two alto sax, two tenor sax (of which I am one), two bari sax, one trumpet, and 4 percussion
Orchestra contractor: "How many brass instruments do you need?"
John Powell: "Yes"
*sad euphonium noises* 😭
@@Sunbeargirl- LMAOOOO
My thoughts exactly. My only gripe about orchestras is their reluctance to incorporate euphoniums. Yes I'm a euphonium player myself, but I'd love to see them in an orchestra setting.
Glad I've found my people. ❤ We shall weep together and hope to see a better future. 😭
@@Sunbeargirl- frr
"1 tuba, 2 bass trombones, 4 tenor trombones, 4 trumpets..."
Oh come on, that's not even half of-
"..and 12 french horns"
ᵒᵏᵃʸ
Feel like this was a big missed opportunity for John Powell to highlight everyone's favorite brass instrument, the flügelhorn. Maybe in the next How to Train your Dragon sequel all us flügelphiles will get some love. All jokes aside, great video!
Don't even get me started on the saxophone
Being a flugelphile sounds like a crime
There isn't going to be another HTTYD movie :(
@@goshdangit4503 good I think the next movie will not be as good anyways
“Flügelphiles”😂😂😂
Is nobody gonna mention the genius title 👌🏼
How many French horns do you want?
John Powell: *yes*
Love these kinds of videos from you, Ryan. So many precious gems!
Thanks for the support!
Wish we could just have an hour long video dedicated to this film score.
i’ve always loved the HTTYD series, both the shows and the books… the music just adds more flavour to this already amazing franchise
Love this series, really has taught me a lot about orchestration.
Great to hear that!
Totally agree with you
How to Train Your Dragon is my absolute favorite movie. I grew up with the series (the first one came out when I was 4) and I think the score is part of the reason I love the sound of the horn so much. 12 horns!! I would love to have an opportunity to play in that section.
That's awesome, what an unexpected way for a movie to inspire someone!
Seeing this makes me really want to play this for band, being a French horn player, but then i realize I'm outnumbered by the trumpets. 1 of me and 6 of them.
Nothing that can’t be solved with a gunned amplifier (says the death metal guitarist.)
Excellent video! I've come to know quite a bit about the HTTYD scores from interviews (mainly about the themes and exotic instruments), but it's always great to learn something new about the orchestration itself. I can tell you John Powell's father was also a tuba player and that Powell likes the sound of the brass which is probably why this one has such a large brass section, but it is interesting that the sequels have progressively fewer horns (12, then 9, then 6).
It's also great to see more people using the scorebook from Omni Music Publishing as a reference. For me it's an unprecedented resource that continues to be extremely useful, and I was even able to contribute to the HTTYD 2 scorebook, which will be just as great a resource to me as the first one.
Again, great video and thanks for highlighting the interesting way Powell uses the brass instruments. It may be just one cue, but a lot of this still applies to the rest of the score and its sequels.
Wow you weren't kidding, you really know this score! Glad you liked it!
@@RyanLeach I’m glad to see it! It’s valuable information for score fans.
For context, Strauss used 2 tubas, 4 trombones (one basstrombone and as in German orchestras common practice one contrabass trombone), 4 trumpets, 8 horns (4 doubling wagner tubas) as well as an off stage brass choir with 2 trombones, 2 trumpets and 12 horns in his Alpine Symphony.
As much as I love French horn, twelve horns!? My god thats so much. That said, I would love to hear a live performance
i know! In my orchestra, there are 7 of us and its a lot
@@livangele7334 seven? That’s an interesting amount to use. Typically it’s 4,6,8 players but 7 is still a lot!
@@khristienhorn Our director plays the double bass, and he really doesn't understand how brass players work. It's a youth orchestra, so i think that he doesn't want to discourage anyone from playing, but there are a few that we could be doing better without
@@khristienhorn In my college's concert band we have 8 but I can't even hear them most of the time because our trumpet and trombone sections are just as big.
That tuba picture you used looks like a euphonium to me
lol aw man, that’s what happens when I try to rush a video and grab the first thing that gets my attention from a google image search!
How to Train your Dragon is one of my favorite movie series ever. Glad to see the music getting some well deserved recognition.
I’m disappointed that I didn’t find this channel sooner; the content is great, and, honestly, more helpful than my college’s music theory class. While I love the videos so far, I would also love to see a video on writing introductions/conclusions. Other than that, keep up the great work!
Thanks! I have one on introductions so far: th-cam.com/video/dRSw15TDsx4/w-d-xo.html
Brass: a highly versatile section, yet it's given such little recognition from many
Seeing all the brass parts for this makes me want to see this music in a drum and bugle corps show!!!
As a kid I always thought this OST was amazing, and I remember owning it on my iPod shuffle. Really cool to see some analysis on it! Thanks!
we just started playing this in band!!! its very fun to play (baritone)
Yay another baritone!
this really reminds me of the way Dutch Fanfare Orchestras are generally scored. The only types of instruments you have in that band setting are low brass (Tubas (Eb and Bb), Euphonium, Baritone horn, bass- and tenor trombone), 'middle brass' as we call it (French Horns) and high brass (Flugelhorns, trumpet and soprano/Eb cornet), and the saxophone family (soprano, alto, tenor and baritone).
'Normal' concert bands also have this but with less brass variety and more woodwinds, and the British Brass bands is very similar but they only have one flugelhorn and an army of cornets.
each of those instruments is going to have to be specialised or else you end up with holes in the orchestration.
Flugelhorns are the main melodic instrument or have to provide texture or moving lines like arpeggios etc.
Trumpets/cornets are there for signals and added power/clarity lines.
Tubas are there for foundation setting and support.
Trombones are for power and chord structure.
Horns are for chords as well as harmonizing and colouring, as well as the occasional power boost and main melodic lines.
Baritones are often used for any of the above, doubling horns, trombone, trumpet, flugelhorn or saxophones, as well as euphonium when their sounds get a bit too homogenic.
And finally, we have the euphonium which is *literally* the wild card of the wind ensembles because it can do *everything.* Need beautiful melody? Euphonium. countermelody? Eupho. doubling of the tubas? Eupho. strengthen the trombones and take the edge off of them a bit? Eupho. Double the horns to open up their sound a bit and add clarity? *Euphonium.*
You can tell its qualities from how Gustav Holst used them in his Planets Suite: An instrument that can play melodies and power parts without the bright edge trombones have, or with a more open sound than the horns.
And I wish more composers used them in symphonies.
Absolutely adore this scoring. So brilliant to see the breakdown!
I have recently started to upload orchestral music onto youtube and it is a blessing that I came across your channel. I love the way you teach, I have learned a lot from your videos and will try to apply it to my own music!!
I am loving these videos, which I only just discovered tonight. Big props!!!
This is fantastic. Love this deep dive. Well done.
This is the stuff that is so fun to geek out on.
It’s my goal to learn how to score and write music and I’m so glad I found this! So incredibly informative and helpful, thank you
I've always loved this score so I enjoyed watching this, thanks for the cool video :)
as a horn, hearing " all 12 horns on melody " was heaven.
Thanks for this awesome video mate!!!
My highschool band plays this song often and it’s still an awesome arrangement for small bands
This is the kind of content I was looking for… thank you so much Ryan. Please, keep up doing great content 🎉❤
Thank You Very Much Sir!
🙂🙏
Thank you very much!
That's great, i hadn't thought of using trumpet for accents like perc, only for the milstep or space jazz parts, thanks again
Horn player here. Loved the video. Just for future reference, us horn players prefer not to be labeled as "French hornists". The horn itself is German, the French put values on the instrument right at the end of the 19th century. This is why late romantic era composers like Strauss and Mahler were writing more chromatic lines for the horns. However, composers like Brahms and Tchaikovsky did not like the sound of the early valved horns and therefore stuck to writing for the natural horn. I see a lot of very well-educated musicians refer to our instrument as "French". Its a very common thing to do and just wanted to let you know.
This score is such a great one. Thanks again for the insight. These LA musicians really are a very special breed.
Killer video! Brass sounds amazing! Thanks for showing this off, and for your analysis!
Thanks! Yea Note performer really shines with the winds.
Recently found your channel, Ryan. Loving every video that I’ve watched so far. As a current Berklee student, diving into the sections is super helpful! Keep it up man 🤘
As a former Berklee student I'm glad you found it!
Man i miss playing in a band. I was never brass, but I played bass clarinet and hearing big band scores brings back some memories
As someone who only just found your channel in the last week or so, your videos are fantastic 👍
The brass is incredible
Great content!!
As a trumpet player myself, this analysis was fascinating
yess!!! thanksss!!
I finally found it. I watched this when this first came out and remembered it from time to time. And I finally found it again
This is such a cool score
My marching band played a how to train your dragon themes show. We played this is berk. The dancing and the dreaming. And once there were dragons. As a brass player, I appreciate John powell’s great brass sound.
Great stuff man, keep it up!
We started playing this about a month ago in symphonic band, and there’s a french horn cue where alto saxes only play “on request”.
We only have 2 French horns so I’ll definitely mention to the band director that we should play that bit too.
this video is amazing dude.
I love brass and this is soo cool
It's criminal that Powell didn't get an award for this score.
Great lesson, thank you.
My pleasure!
Hey Ryan, you're soon becoming one of my favourite music TH-camrs to watch. Keep up the amazing content going. Can't wait to see what's next 😁
Uuuuugh, Ryan I've been looking for a channel like this for years! Subbed!
this is an incredible video and I enjoy it so much and I love the analysis and its so good this is my THING
I love you’re energy!
Interest piqued. Subbed!
Omni music score book! I just got that for Christmas😎👍
Nice, that's when I got mine as well
If anyone wants a "masterclass" on how to write for Brass sections I would suggest to read scores of Philip Sparkes Music for Brass Band. It's not quite the same instrumentation as an orchestra brass section but it will give you some ideas on what is possible with the instruments in the hands of skilled players and what kind of unique textures you can create.
Year of The Dragon
As a trombone, this piece sounds awesome, also we def sound great with horns
How to train your dragon was probably one of my favorite animated movies ended perfectly at the right time three movies and a major TV series no more no less
I appreciate your use of the piano roll midi notes along side the notation, though uncommon on most TH-cam videos about music composition (especially among classical, orchestral, or jazz music), it is very helpful as I only compose in my DAW's piano roll
That’s something I’ve only recently started doing so I’m glad to hear it’s useful
I love the How to Train your dragon soundtrack as a Trombone player
I understood aboutttt a third of what he said but loved the video ^^
great !
I think I just found my favourite channel
I love this title.
The horns are the best instrument of course
Pd. im a horn player jeje
Could you do a video on how to do score reductions?
I really enjoy watching your videos. I noticed the book you have in the background "The Study of Orchestration" by Samuel Adler. Would you recommend this book for someone learning to orchestrate?
Just discovered your channel. Thanks for such a great content!!
I have a question. Which program or plugin do you use for notation?
Music has a lot of resource management, to make one section have the impact you want it to have, you have to make sure you reserve things for it, or else it won't be notable. It's a lot like power in writing, every aspect of art will always be in relation to everything around it.
I saw my music Aid’s folder and it had this in there I swear the TH-cam algorithm has cameras on me
glad the euphonium got featured in this even though it was shown instead of the tuba
Trying to help you guys out where I can
I’m biased but my all time favorite franchise has been HTTYD, it’s always had a special place in my heart.
This reminds me of DCI (Drum Corps International)
I'm so glad that we got this clarified. Now, can we please move on to Elliott Goldenthal's Final Fantasy soundtrack and its *16 horns*?
me a trumpet player reading the title: *Impossible*
Very underrated channel
I appreciate that!
Hey Ryan,
Just found your channel and liking it a lot!
Huge OST fan here. Seeing your full score book really interested me, so you have more?
How can anyone buy them? I found the Jonh Powell one, but can’t find more from other composers.
Great content!
Cheers
Thanks! This one came from Omni Music Publishing, they have a bunch of others like The Matrix and Back to the Future
as a high school student playing french horn, 12 french horns brings big happiness to my soul.
I am the only one
For once the horns get the main melody and the rest of the brass is doing support. As a former horn player this just makes me smile. I was in a community band that got a copy of the Star wars medley where the horn parts were NOT re-written for the trombones, and we hit those notes with great pride.
Hello, Ryan! I am a young musician from Belarus. I watch your videos every day, and it really help me to learn a lot of new things about composition and music in general. Your videos help me learn English too. I want to know just one thing - which plugins do you use in Sibelius? It sound alive. Thank you for your videos and the experiences you share.
it's NotePerformer
French horn powa!!!
How to train your brass would be a more catchy title for this.
I've been wondering that! Went back and forth on "brass" or "brass section". You think it's clear enough? I'll give it a go and see what happens.
On second thought I'm not going to mess with what's clearly working!
Yeah, of course. The title still works as it is.
You should definitely take a look at some Square Enix music. Whether it’s from Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, or Dragon Quest, Square Enix has some amazing music.
Secret of Mana has always been a particular favorite of mine. Final Fantasy is probably the top of the class though. Here's one I did with the Chocobo theme: th-cam.com/video/MNuaahEoxGA/w-d-xo.html
4:20 Trumpet Power! 🎺🎵🎶
I wish my band had more than 2 horns. I can only play so loud. Edit: I should mention that we have 15 trombones, 12 trumpets, and 9 altos. We get a bit drowned out on occasion
Ha that is rough!
Just playing louder - Tuba player
yiikess.. we're more horns than trumpets in my band! we're four horns and three trumpets hehee.. two trombones and two tubas as welll, so we were super lucky :D
nice
Cries in 1st Trumpet
Hi! I have a question. Which VST libraries did you use for this arrangement? They sound Awesome!
Noteperformer
Hell yeah, french horn supremacy
How much french horn do you want? Yes
clever title