Leaving Bethel: Christian Couple Shares Their Deconstruction/Reconstruction Story
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- Today's show features Jesse and Kali Westwood @thewestwoodhome as they share their powerful story of leaving the culture of Bethel church and the affiliated organizations. Jesse graduated from Bethel Supernatural School of Ministry and went on to lead worship with former Bethel Worship artist Sean Feucht. The Westowood's share their personal stories of deconstructing out of that culture and belief system, and then ultimately coming back to the historic Christian gospel. Kali shares the deeply personal and gut-wrenching story of her brother dying suddenly in an accident, and a "Dead-Raising Team" being called to bring him back to life in the hospital. Reflecting on their failure to raise her brother, she explores the emotional fallout from the teaching of Bethel alum Tyler Johnson, and his book, "How to Raise the Dead."
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The night before my husband passed away, he said, “You know I’m not going to die?” I said, “Yes, I know because the Word says you’re going to live and not die”! So the next day after he died, I started asking the Lord, what was that about? In the next few weeks He showed me, “he’s more alive than you are!” I am at peace and comforted and no longer Word of Faith minded, which we’d been for over 50 years. I never really questioned things I’d heard and been taught.
Thankful for these young people questioning and sharing their stories!
Life with Christ is so much better than life in this flawed body and world.
Im so sorry for your loss. I lost my beautiful daughter and the scripture that helps me is. " to live is Christ to die is gain." Soon we will be with them and forever.❤
@@anniemccoy3009
He is now experiencing the reality of uncreated life. Forever and ever!
When I was in the hospital with a severe concussion, having been in a car accident that killed my husband, the Lord reminded me of John 11:25 &26: Jesus said to [Martha], " I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?" "Yes, Lord," she replied, " I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."
The 50 year anniversary of that accident is Jan 20, 2025. Jesus is still my Rock, my Fortress, my Shepherd.❤
@bettysiemens9616 that is Him. Faithful and true. Soon we will all be together at the marriage feast of the lamb. Alleluia! God be with you and hold you always sister. 🙏
This interview was so good. Jesse's statement "Just because good things are happening with bad theology doesn't mean the theology is good." This is so thought provoking. After leaving a pentecostal church almost 5 years ago, we are still processing what we experienced. Theology is a big one. We were part of an experience based church and were musicians on the worship team . Feelings were a big part of it.
Kali's statements about - Emotions can lie, What are you worshiping? Is it a false idol? Kali described it so well. She put words to some of the thoughts and feelings I have had.
Thank you all for sharing.
Thank you 🙏🏼
I've had similar experiences, couldn't agree more. The system is a machine. It's of this world but many well meaning Christians are deceived.
"God can work through these things in spite of them." That little sentence answers so much for me. Thank you, Jesse and Kali for helping me be able to move forward. I love you two so much!
Thank you for this interview and their honesty. My husband and I are currently pastors and had to help lead our church out of Word of Faith prosperity movement that previous pastors taught. For 5 years we have been teaching and laying a firm foundation on Gods Word and intimacy with Jesus. We still believe in and practice the gifts of the Holy Spirit but with teaching people how to test everything by Bible and Gods character. So i think we should not throw out the gifts and move of the Holy Spirit because some are out of balance,, after all read the book of Acts! Without the Holy Spirit we only have natural human knowledge and effort. But instead teach people discernment and how to test everything, as Paul taught us to test prophecy, test doctrine, have interpretation of tongues to build up etc. Our worship and focus should be on knowing Christ.
Do you allow tongues without an interpreter present?
My husband is a worship leader and for years we sang bethal, Jesus culture, hillsong, elevation music. He worked so hard removing all those from our library after being convicted and researching their theology. We even started writing music for the local church so others have options as they move away from their music
Thank you, Alisa for this channel! I have been praying for something like this! I am an ex-Mormon who became born again and have often been perplexed by some of the cultural elements and practices I see in a lot of charismatic churches/movements. I'm not saying I disagree with them, but I have tried to find the Biblical basis for what I see and am often left confused or feeling that I am simply not spiritual enough. It's a very confusing place to be in for an ex-Mormon who was deceived and taught false doctrines her whole life and is now seeing the possible propagation of false doctrines in some Christian communities. God keeps reminding me to not trust in the arm of flesh and that I need to prioritize reading His word and be open to insights from the Holy Spirit before listening to any particular preacher.
Poop oi
These young people sound so confused. No church is perfect. Just find the one that is in your opinion more biblically based. I hope your story does not turn off any young christian or would be believable.
Welcome to the family of God❤ i have a family member by marriage who received Christ and got out of the mormon church. I'm so grateful she will be in heaven with me...and you as well!❤
It's easy when coming out of a church that believes like the Mormons do, to be too open to any church that purports to be fully Christian! I went through that and found one that didn't really believe that the Bible is 100% the Word of God! The confusion molded my complete future because while backslidden, I married a "Sunday" Christian. I am grateful to God that my husband ended the marriage, so I can fully serve Christ!
*Larry Burkett's book on "Giving and Tithing" drew me closer to God and helped my spirituality. 2020 was a year I literally lived it. I cashed in my life savings and gave it all away. My total giving amounted to 40,000 dollars. Everyone thought I was delusional. Today, 1 receive 85,000 dollars every two months. I have a property in Calabasas, CA, and travel a lot. God has promoted me more than once and opened doors for me to live beyond my dreams. God kept to his promises to and for me*
There's wonder working power in following Kingdom principles on giving and tithing. Hallelujah!
But then, how do you get all that in that period of time? What is it you do please, mind sharing?
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US and abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
Big thanks to Ms. Susan Jane Christy❤️✨💯May God bless Susan Christy services,she have changed thousands of lives globally
How can I start this digital market, any guidelines and how can I reach out to her?
Great interview! It’s making more sense to me why so many publicly known worship leaders are leaving their faith. Thank you.
Everyone has been devastated in a church or by a pastor. I think that most Christians want to build the love of Christ for each other, but we're incredibly flawed...all of us. It doesn't mean we have to point fingers at each other but we need to correct with love. No matter what, it doesn't change who Jesus is! He is the Truth.
Thank you all for making the time to film this discussion. There are so many of us who have come out of this culture. Thank you for sharing.
I thank God every day that I came out of this doctrine before my Mom died of cancer. The amount of damage I could have done to her faith/mindset with this doctrine, along with how devastating it would’ve been to my faith when she died is insurmountable. This doctrine is so dangerous, I’m glad more people are coming out of it.
Oh my word. The ending when you're talking about worship made me tear up.
We attended a very charismatic church that was heavily influenced by Bethel/Hillsong, etc growing up and I always felt a bit of shame when I didn't feel the "high" that everyone else around me was supposedly feeling.
And yet now, as we attend a Baptist church and sing hymns on the weekly, worship has become so much more rich because it IS just what you said, Alisa: proclaiming truths about the Lord and truly bringing glory to Him. No fancy lights, no smoke machines, "just" singing Scripture in the light of day that the Lord created. Its not about the worship "experience' but obedience and the posture of our hearts toward our Heavenly Father.
Before, it just felt like we were all trying to chase a feeling, therein making the "worship experience" about ourselves and how "we" felt in that moment.
Thank you for clarifying that so pointedly! That just illuminated why that didnt sit well with me growing up. ❤
"False idol, an idea about something that isn't true" Thank you, Kali!
I really appreciate this video and the substance of what was discussed. Alisa, you are a effective host, you let your guests talk, even if struggling for language to express themselves. That is so rare.
Her story sounds more of a reformation than a deconstruction. So appreciate their story.
i would agree with that. I went full deconstruction she more reformed her faith.
@@thewestwoodhome Thank you for sharing your story.
As someone who went through the same thing, I support the use of "deconstruction." With reforming, you are merely "spot-checking" your faith. When you have to dismiss everything about what you have come to believe except for the core truth that Jesus is the Messiah, you have deconstructed -- there is no framework to your faith anymore, and you basically have to start over, and the process is painful; getting past the gas-lighting, forgiving the people who taught you these things, repenting of believing these things themselves as well as for not being Biblically literate enough to know 1. these things were wrong, and 2. that actually you should question the things your pastor teaches. People in my position probably no longer belong to a church either, either from trust issues or the fact that it is hard to find a church that does not teach a certain degree of the nonsense you've just purged, so you're bereft of community for awhile. Then you have to re-learn the Bible from scratch. This is all a whole lot more involved than, say, realizing you've become a Calvinist or post-trib or something.
@@snopure If you stay holding onto Jesus as the Messiah as a "core truth" you are also spot checking your faith, but to a far greater extent than others. I don't like the term 'dismissing' but letting go of that idea as a core truth, and then trying to evaluate it from what we/you know would be a more full and well-rounded deconstruction of one's Christianity. The goal changes though and becomes to truly just seeking God, truth, or perhaps rationality for some. Few want to risk it though, because it's a bit like letting go of a rope to see if there is ground beneath your feet. You know the rope, the rope feels secure. However, so long as you hold on, you'll never know if the ground is firmly planted below.
Thank you for doing this interview there messages are exactly what we need to hear now. GOD using two imperfect people and loving them on there search for truth and then sharing in there own words touches my heart and helps me know I'm not alone with some of these same struggles. I believe I've heard a word sent fron the Lord through you both. The Lord Bless you all.
The enneagram is what actually made me leave my charismatic church after learning of the occult roots & background of its creation. I was also on our worship team and never gave them a straight answer of why I was leaving because I didn't trust leadership. I had already gone to them once about my doubts of hearing gods voice in the way they taught it.
What that church using the enneagram?
This explains a lot. An early-20s associate of my then-husband died suddenly and unexplainedly in a very public setting ~1999. His family drove several hours to where we lived to try to raise him from the dead. My Reformed pastor met with them at the morgue to provide comfort, and then spoke truth to them, but they persisted to no avail. The family came from a charismatic background. I'd forgotten about it until listening to this episode.
What truth did he share with them? That Jesus can't raise the dead, and did not teach we would raise the dead?
Both of which, based scripture, would be lies.
I don't know those people, so I'm not defending them(or how they may have been about it). Rather, scripture, even if it's difficult to walk out, or if we see bad examples of it.
Their story is so sad- the leadership of NAR will have many lost souls to account for. And American Gospel should be required viewing for every Christian...
Having a set liturgy that has been used for centuries and grounded in Scripture is a guardrail against heresy and making worship in our own image (or the culture’s image).
Let Us Attend! Kyrie!
Yes! We love our Anglican Church!
Great interview! Thank you for having the Westwoods on your platform. Please invite him and his wife back in the future!!! Praying that their story and testimony will continue to reach the right people. They have blessed me in so many ways thru their own TH-cam channel… because my past upbringing is similar to theirs, and I’m still in the process of working thru all of that. They’ve been an encouragement to me. God is using what they have gone thru, for His good and for His glory!
When she said that she felt guilt because she kept thinking "if I were my brother, and I saw God face to face, and He was ready to welcome me, I would run to Him"... oh but that's beautiful faith right there. If only she'd known it at the time.
God can heal, but God doesn’t always heal ( Joni and Nick). But he uses Joni and Nick to minister to others who are physically hurting.
He's used Nick (by Nick's own testimony) to bring physical and emotional healing to others.
There is someone out there who talks like me and has a hard time finding words! Kali, I totally get it!! And what you said at the end made me cry. I went to a Bethel Leaders Network church for years and I thought you nailed it by what you said. I hadn't realized that is what most likely got me into that theology and church but it totally made sense to me. I have sorrow for going that direction but am so, so thankful that God brought me out of all that. Thank you for being in the interview and for sharing all that you shared. ❤
Thank you for your openness and honesty in sharing your life.
I'm feeling sad that no one ever told you the true gospel. But I'm thankful you came out on the other side because of the mercy of God and the sacrifice of Jesus.
It would have been good to have shared the true gospel in this interview.
Very helpful. When it was happening to me I didnt talk it through with anyone. I felt like i was betraying my old self, life and church. It was a bewildering journey. In many ways i still feel lost but strengthened.
It is a lot of work getting theology corrected. I’m so thankful they came out. I pray many others do too. So thankful for this ministry and those whose teach historically correct Biblical theology. Keep praying for others to come out of these situations too 🙏🙏🙏
Happy to hear him mention Jeff Durbin. Listening to him also led me away from charismania and to a solid reformed faith.
Jeffs the man
Jeff's videos on youtube really helped me when leaving the Mormon church I was raised in. Also, Mike Winger, Alisa Childers, Doreen Virtue, etc. Very grateful to all of them.
What Kali said at the 48 minute mark just hits so hard! So good!
I am definitely the black sheep in this thread. I would not still be following Christ if it were not for Bethel and the absolute biblical truths I learned thru their teachings. Very little that I learned growing up in the Baptist church lined up with what I saw in scripture.
Sister, it's possible that what you learned at YOUR Baptist Church really wasn't true to scripture. But that doesn't make Bethel a Biblically centered Church. Perhaps as you grow you will be able to take a careful look at the doctrines, and may your eyes be opened.
I agree with you Cindy, my story is very positive concerning Bethel, they helped me sort of reconstruct or at least get through a deconstruction of sorts haha! Which is why these kind of videos just don’t make sense. I think we are temped to be resentful of where we were hurt or where we came from when we made mistakes or believed “wrongly” but it was actually us who was immature but we blame the church. We can’t imagine that it is us who need to grow rather than blame a church for why we didn’t understand something or we were “tricked”. It’s the easy path to make one church a villain who hurt us, but the reality is so many churches charismatic or Bible teaching churches are just as guilty of not being gospel/Jesus centered. I feel like the harder path is love, to not join in on these smear campaigns on churches. Let’s be humble and acknowledge that we are all still learning how to follow Christ, and we mess up, all the time and churches mess up too because they are full of people who are learning and in a process of “ growing up “ too.
That's very interesting.Would you be willing to share 2 or 3 of those specific Biblical Truths you learned at Bethel and also compare to specific wrong teaching in the Baptist church?
@@gracereed473 very well said, exactly!
they have some good teaching, and God def used their music to save me from suicide once
Praise be to God for opening blind eyes. Grateful to the Lord for using American Gospel too. God rescued me from false faith in 2020. He opened my eyes and gave me the courage to ask "difficult" questions about what I believed after watching American Gospel: Christ Alone.
The Gifts of The Holy Spirit are part of Christ Alone, The Holy Spirit sent by The Lord Jesus Christ, When you have seen Him You have seen The Father🥰
Mark 16:15 nd He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Matthew. 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
you missed that second half of Matthew 10:8:
Matthew 10:8-15
[8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. [9] Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, [10] no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. [11] And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. [12] As you enter the house, greet it. [13] And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. [14] And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. [15] Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. (ESV)
Are you doing all the other parts of that passage or is that just cultural? Clearly that part was addressed to the immediate audience he was speaking with.
How I could relate with the Westwoods! I was a part of the 24-7Burn from its inception in Berlin, Germany. Some of the years were wonderful but everything changed after Sean joined Bethel. One day, all the Burn communities were informed that we had to start "tithing" to Sean. If we refused to tithe, we could no longer use Burn logos or even be a part. It was started as organic worship - nothing more than worship! Alarm bells rang and we started on a journey of coming out of false doctrine and saw clearly that MONEY surely motivates wolves in sheep's clothing - including Heidi Baker. The recent fall of so many in the movement (Mike Bickle and Chris Reed) show's clearly that prophecy was (and still is) being used to MANIPULATE and keep the money flowing through false promises. It's a long journey OUT and I pray that the Westwoods would come out shining like gold!
So cool here in about someone else that was part of the burn. It was really strange how everything dissolved when it happened. Thanks for sharing and we appreciate it :-)
@@thewestwoodhome And love and prayers for you!
PS I also had a son pass away at 28 years old and the brother of my daughter who was also on BURN leadership. We prayed that he would rise from the dead just as he passed away and we were told that we didn't have enough faith, bla, bla, bla. Funny the similarities of our stories. I'm also from the Pacific NW!
How were you informed that you had to start tithing to Sean? What do you mean, you each individually had to tithe to him or what?
@@patimalatima9 No, not individually but as a Burn. Each Burn community had leaders and the leader's were in regular, monthly contact with Sean or associates.
Praise God for bringing them back to Him! Thank you to both of them for being so honest and vulnerable. It was salve to my soul in many ways including a better understanding of a friend’s reaction when she lost a child.
Thank you ❤
Extremely powerful story, maybe because I've had a similar experience in my life- though not quite as intense. I was deeply hurt by a situation in which it felt like God let me down- but I knew better from my upbringing. I still believed, but stopped participating for nearly 15 years. Figured I got my fire insurance, I'm just going to coast from here on out.
God used another situation that hurt me brutally bad inside to get my attention and turned my focus fully back to Him. I repented of my slothfulness and indifference and spent many, many hours praying, reading and studying the Bible- and for the first two weeks, kept feeling like maybe I'd gone too far for God to take me back in. What if there's no redemption left for someone like me?
Finally I felt the peace of God. I'd spent the last 20 years in Pentecostal churches, where we said and did things very different from my very conservative upbringing. For example, instead of petitioning God, we "commanded" Him, or gave Him "permission" to do certain things. I began asking myself, "Why? Is there a legitimate scriptural basis for these sorts of things?" Or I'd remember certain phrases I'd heard all my life like, "The age of accountability". I researched everything and frequently found out that the answer was no.
So I basically had to relearn all the fundamentals again- this time with solid Bible answers. It's been over two years now, I'm still reading, studying, and praying a lot every day and the circumstances that lead me to this was so worth it! I'm plugged in to a solid Biblical church now and couldn't be happier!
Thank you! I totally agree with what you are saying. Those empty "worship songs" started to destroy my faith... With this constant emphasis on "me raising something and making God do what I want". It could be damaging...
I so appreciate this couple coming on here and being honest in their own words about their walk with Christ. All things built by the flesh will perish, ultimately all that lasts is what God has made that is eternal. I pray that God will continue to lead them as Psalm 139:23-24 says "Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts and see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."
Thank you for doing this interview, Alisa.
Very good conversation! Thanks to all!
Thanks!
Thank you for sharing, Westwoods. You know what I love; that you guys are so in agreement and in sync with each other. Even when you discuss that you felt abandoned and had the marital struggles you hold a respectful, loving space for one another.
It is interesting to see many leaders in worship teams that are not sitting in sound theology and doctrine. It astounds me that we can have atheist worship leaders… causing me to question the legitimacy of church corporate worship. Its dangerous and leaders need to be kept to account within their walk with the Lord.
Wow…I used to be big into Morningstar, especially their worship stuff with Leonard Jones and Don Potter. I’m a drummer and have played with several of their worship leaders including Suzy Yarai. Prior to that I was raised in the AG church. Well, by God’s Grace my wife and I have come out of that world and are now reformed and very conservative theologically. May He continue to remove the blinders and confusion from these hyper Charasmatic/NAR followers.
wow…I left the reformed church for Morningstar and Bethel and my faith has never been more real and impactful. Will never go back.
@@cindyloppnow1621 Why… is it the worship or are you seeing REAL miracles. If it’s the latter then wrote something contradicting this couple and this Chanel.
@@cindyloppnow1621absolutely, I am believe in The Bible which is The Word, being believed in its entirety, which includes The Gifts Of The Holy Spirit. Sometimes a podcast like this makes many go back into complacency & not earnestly seek after The Gifts as scripture says. Just because some are acting & don’t move in them “in order” does not mean they are not being used Worldwide & properly. My mom flatlined for 6 minutes & my sister for 15 minutes they were not supposed to survive but they miraculously did. The Lord Jesus Christ does this all over The World every day. Those miracles should also be celebrated. As for a more complete Resurrection, I know many but one in particular happened in Atlanta, Georgia ( the suburbs), a man was driving himself to work, had massive chest pain, he knew this was really bad, he stopped driving to work went to the nearest hospital emergency room, he collapsed just as he walked in the door. The emergency Dr & staff worked on him for 40 minutes, they tried everything. They called the man’s time of death & gave up. Dr. Crandall was told by The Lord to pray, at first he said no, then he went back in, the nurse couldn’t believe he was trying, he prayed & asked another doctor to shock him one more time. Jeff Markin came back to life. January 20th 2007. Dr. Crandall then led him to The Lord several days later. There are many testimonies like this. So yes, it is important to pray for The Resurrection of the dead.
Being associated with the Healing Rooms here in Spokane there was a lot of connection with Bethel. So I’ve been around all of this what they shared. It’s been almost 3 years since I left and still dealing with the anger because I trusted what they taught to be true. On another hand my fault for not digging deeper into the WORD. Once I began to cry out to GOD for truth because I saw the worship was all abt us and not lifting GOD up. Once I started that the LORD being faithful lead me to the truth. My eyes opened. All these books about raising the dead etc and not one resurrection. It angers me because of the deception and such lies. One thing I KNOW is HE IS FAITHFUL no matter..it may not be the outcome that we want or expect but HE is Faithful ❤ I still haven’t found a church or felt I could go because of the mistrust.
I understand the difficulty with finding a church. It's like you don't feel you can trust the Leaders but what I finally figured out was that it's up to me to know the Word and be able to discern false teaching. It sounds like that is what lead you away from the Healing Rooms and your connection with Bethel. Just witness to the Holy Spirit's working in us if we are willing to listen. And again, KNOW the Word! Trust God and nothing less. Bless you and I pray that you find your church - they are still there.
@@leslielutz6028 I never stopped being in the WORD. I never left GOD only the church.
❤
I did a ministry trip to those healing rooms when I was at BSSM
I pray you find a church to fellowship with & grow in. Maybe check out the local Calvary Chapels in your area, most are solid. May He lead you!
Kali the way you share and what you’re sharing is so powerful and very clear! Hearing you! Thank you all for this episode!
I definitely agree that these hyper-charismatic practices like at Bethel and other NAR churches are extremely damaging and unbiblical.
Have you ever thought of doing a podcast where you interviewed people that use the gifts Biblically and also have a balanced view of prophecy, tongues, and the other gifts of the Spirit?
I see all these attacks on hyper-charismania, which should definitely be called out, but why do I never see a podcast that calls out hyper-cessationism as being equally as damaging and false?
I'll take any examples of Acts 2 type tongues...
Prophets that are never wrong...
Blind seeing... deaf hearing... dead raising
Acting as though these deconstruction type questions are invalid is one of the worst things a pastor/elder/teacher can do for someone who needs answers. These people need truth desperately - truth that Scripture has.
Thank you Kali and Jesse
I frequently hear my favorite apologists (Alisa, Mike Winger, Melissa Dougherty, etc) say something like, "I'm not a cessationist," "I actually am a continuationist," etc. But they always highlight the negative things coming out of charismatic/Pentecostal ministries (and I get it, there's PLENTY). Mike has said something to the effect of, I wish I wasn't a continuationist, because the abuse of the gifts is so rampant (of course he's right). I wonder if any of them would be willing to research and interview/report on positive aspects coming out of "charismatic" ministries, considering they apparently believe the gifts are indeed for today?
So why don't you ask em? It's highly unlikely your request will come to fruition via THIS approach. I recommend a personal, direct approach instead if it's really important to you.
I doubt you'd get much out of Winger, tbh. Only bc he alrdy HAS talked about (& reiterated many many times) his positive pov twd the gifts of the Spirit.. (let those with ears HEAR)it just doesn't happen to involve Bethels pov & practices bc it doesn't exist in the Bethel church. Not really. Sure, the devil sprinkles a bit of truth in his plethora of lies& deceptions, but for the vast majority-Bethel uses the gifts in ways that are destructive & even blasphemous (whether intentionally or not)
But... doesn't hurt to ask, I suppose.
It's doubtful. There's not a lot of money in positivity.
Maybe you can get on mikes 10 questions and ask him about if he sees healthy gifts of the spirit and healings being performed currently. I bet he has plenty of examples. I grew up charismatic and it wasn't unhealthy but it was very emotionally driven experiences without biblical substance and teaching discernment. I had friends who curricated miracles because they wanted to see them so badly. God is a miracle working God and you can see stories of those all over the world but it's not in these moments of curated hyper emotional experiences. They happen in the rooms with men and women who deeply and earnestly seek the Lord and beg him to intervene as they did in the Bible. If they do happen in those curated services it's because the heart of that person loved the Lord not because they did a great thing by making the room welcoming for the miracle.
@@RayBekk That's a great idea, I might try to ask Mike on his 10 Questions this coming Friday! 👍
Yeah, let's round up all the true dead raising stories to counterbalance all the negativity. 😒
I’d like to remind the current Calvary Chapel pastors, Chuck Smith was writing and rightfully pushing back against the hyper on his watch
Yup. I grew up in Calvary Chapel and I remember that.
Have you seen Jesus revolution movie? Sadly it made it seem like he was closed minded and wasn’t receptive to the new wave of the spirit etc
@@michellewarren5842
I think God placed Chuck and Kay right in the middle of a revival to disciple a whole generation of kids in the Scriptures
Highly recommend listening to a sermon from Times Square Church, given this past Sunday, Sept. 1, 2024. Gives the best explanation of the purpose of worship.
So many positive things to say here. So little space and time. These videos are so important in our times.
I love Bethel church and music, Bill Johnson is one of my favourite teachers. Resurrection of the dead is part of what Jesus and the church does. I went to the school of the prophets at Bethel in 2023 it was very good experience.
Examples please
@@bigtobacco1098 there was a man razed from the dead at a Reinhard Bonnke crusade years ago it was well documented, his wife brought his body to the crusade, he had been dead 4 days and had been embalmed
@@ryanehlis426 point me to the documents
@@ryanehlis426 I would look up bonnie ob the "deception in the church" website
@@ryanehlis426 did he speak gibberish or real language ??
Congratulations to you guys! I, too, made it out of that deception by the grace of God. 🙌
Thanks sis ❤
Wow, what a great conversation and important topic.
Thanks 🙏🏼
My sense, as Kali spoke, is that she's had to learn "normal" language to communicate her faith and still has so much "indoctrination lingo" in her vocabulary. I get it, because I came into faith in Christ through Word of Faith and it has its own vocabulary, too. Speaking "bible" is unifying but can only be learned by reading and being taught the straight up word of God.
So much I want to say. First, thanks for having the Westwoods. Second, I am on the same path out from IHOP, Bethel and Jesus Culture. The worship caught my attention and I stayed for 20 yrs before I was shaken enough to completely abandon that movement and then God. I too found Jordan Peterson and realized I had never been a Christ follower. I didn’t know who Jesus was. I didn’t know him as a Savior. So I too started a journey of discovering Jesus and following him. I haven’t found a church yet but I know without a doubt that I’m saved and hope to be baptized someday if I could find people to do it with. Church is foreign to me and I’m not sure if I will ever understand it but I now know Jesus and for that I am grateful to the Westwoods for telling their story. I found them early on and I’m not sure I would have made it if not for their sharing along with other podcasters sharing the Truth about the danger of these hyper spiritual groups that have zero discipleship.
"Pagen Christianity" opened my spiritual eyes to leave a CULT.....
😊13 YEARS AGO.....
I have had so many questions and concerns about Bethel. I used to live in Redding, and went to Bethel many times due to my friends who attended the church (although Bethel was not my home church in Redding). My friends don't seam to have any concerns about some of the false teachings that come out of the Bethel leadership. I've listened to Mike Winger's videos and shared them with my friends. I highly doubt that they listened to them. I've been brushed off.
Anyway...
Nice to hear from this couple and their experience. I'll share this video as well 🙏
I've never heard 1 false teaching. Not 1.
@@theresagrote3204 I did hear false teaching when I went to Bethel. But I also heard some great biblically sound teachings at Bethel as well. I try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater there.
There are some very concerning things that they emphasize on at Bethel. Dominion Theology is one of them, amongst others ie: 7 mountains mandate, prosperity gospel and their view on prophecy. There was a very strong emphasis on money when I went there as well. I was frowned upon because I had an older car. They outright believe to gain is godliness. Being rich is a sign of your relationship with God. Which is very much against Jesus Words, and Paul's Epistles.
@@theresagrote3204That's probably because you don't have any discernment or don't know the Word very well.
That poor family having to go through that ordeal over her brother.... What confusion. That's maddening. Keep sharing about this movement, Alisa. I look back at the years I spent in a prosperity gospel/NAR church and I am saddened at what I didn't recognize.
Thank you 🙏🏼
Alisa, I so appreciate you and all the tough topics you dig into. Great interview and so needed
I appreciate that you have not thrown out the baby with the bathwater regarding the Lord's ability and willingness to heal. I know people personally who were radically healed by the Lord instantly. He is still healing today. Obviously, we can't demand that He heals or raises anyone from the dead, but we can ask and sometimes He answers in that way.
I lived in Kenya for a time, and there are many stories from African countries of God's healing and delivering power. Sometimes I think in the west, we have not because we ask not.
Also regarding the charismatic gifts, I am one who has prayed in tongues for years and the Holy Spirit has allowed me to speak in languages that other people knew, including Sioux Indian, French and Russian, none of which I know. The Lord used all of those instances to bless and encourage the hearers. The man who was a Sioux Indian said what he heard was, "Christ is king the Son of God. Christ is king the Son of God!". I believe the Lord allowed that because this man had been punished by a missionary teacher as a child when he spoke in his native tongue instead of an English. I had been witnessing to him and it was as though the Lord was not only revealing who He was but also encouraging him that he could speak to Him in his heart language.
My experience was I didn't know what to do in the situation and was just praying quietly in the Spirit asking for help. BTW, I wish that praying in tongues made me more holy, but we know that comes from fully surrendering to His will and obeying His word.
Again, I'm so thankful for your gracious and determined pursuit of truth and I pray for you regularly.
Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. Luke 10:20❤️🙏✨️
My heart breaks 😢 for those still trapped 💔 😢 by Bethel.
we did “treasure hunts” with YWAM but we called it hearing and obeying, and we could end up interceding and worshipping over the city, prayer walking downtown, or praying for someone- the point is that it was about obedience to Holy Spirit as a group.
how abut talking to someone still at Bethel and their testimony. !!!!!!!!!!!!
Because this would destroy Childers agenda of criticizing Bethel, worse, denying the Holy Spirit. Though thousands and thousands of these very positive and God honoring testimonies are available and full of the gospel being shared, miracles and accurate prophesy.
In bethel's website there are lots of them and none of these shared in this channel. Try to say the same there.
Send them my way. I’m more than happy to talk to them. Seriously connect them with me
@@paulc7190 I may be mistaken, but it could seem like people here don’t believe in miracles. And want to undo them, like undo the testimony of God.
It’s off brand for this channel that’s y lol
I love Bethel!
As someone who attended and graduated Bethel the same years as Jesse, actually in a small group with Jesse if I remember right. It’s actually funny hearing him describe the treasure hunt process. Say whatever you want about it, but that was a really unique experience. lol
JOOOOEEE!!! Holy cow! Hi ❤😊❤
@@thewestwoodhome 😅😂Hey Jesse!!
@@thewestwoodhome good to see you on here my brother 🙏
@@josephpayne6278love ya man❤
Unique in what way ? Was it from God or not… that’s the $64,000 question that NO ONE is answering.
Great people, sweet spirit. I would love to have a cup of coffee as I'm driving through Delaware one day.
Thanks 🙏🏼
It took me a very long time to accept what I was hearing & reading about Bethel & Bill Johnson. I knew Bill from his oversight of Women's Aglow many, many years ago & had great respect for him. I believe Bill loves the Lord but Bethel has wandered into the territory of loving & pursuing gifts more than the Gift Giver. My heart hurts when I think of the course correction that Bethel needs and the many, many people who are going to be hurt when that happens. We should all pray for our hurting brothers & sisters. I want to share one more thing. I was at Sundial Bridge in Redding with my now husband & we had been discussing the possibility of marriage. Some young people walked up to us & asked if my name was _____. It was not but they asked if there was anything we needed prayer for. We stood there at Sundial Bridge & these people prayed with us & for us that we would know God's will for us to marry or not. I felt so much peace & comfort just to be prayed for. That was 20 years ago & that is an experience I will never forget. I was prodigal but God was reaching out to me.
The treasure is Christ. Not us
I found some of this so moving, what a lovely couple. God bless and thanks for the content.
thank you!
This couple was thrown into ministry with 0 foundation...tragic
I didn’t know how much I needed to hear this, especially the wife-her story about her brother and her final advice to the church💔❤️🤍🙏🏾
Thank you you ❤
I think the experiences these two guest speakers have had in their faith journey could be replicated in one form or another in almost all streams of Christianity across the world: the disapointment, dissillusionment, hurt, doubts, and confusion. And honestly it still seems this couple continues to hurt. I couldn't help but notice this couple cited reading Allisa's book which became the gateway to them ultimately falling away from the Lord which gave me red flags. As an outsider looking in, it seems Allisa is biased in her opinion against Bethel but doesn't equally critisize the questionable theological viewpoints of many other churches. I'm not saying Bethel Church is perfect, but no person, organization, or entity is perfect; only Jesus is perfect. To quote the poet Alexander Pope, "To err is human; to forgive, Divine".We are all broken sinners in need of a Savior! 1 Corinthians 12:9 says " My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness" (letters in red). I personally believe one of the biggest problems the worldwide church has, across all denominations, is a lack of knowledge of the Word of God. Our faith should be built on the rock of Jesus and not on the sand that washes away with the storms of life.
Thank you so much @Alisachilders!
Thank you so much for this. I’ve just left a church and this has been helpful. 😊
We did treasure hunts at my church and during my time overseas doing missions but we would be asking God to show us where to go and who to talk to in order to share the gospel with them
you guys have my heart. There is so much hatred spreading born out of personal dissapointment, delusion and feelings of abandonment. The question of Holy Spirit guiding us is a deep one, and it gets so confused through bad theology and the human striving for own importance. I personally experienced Jesus' saving out of New Age, and Holy Spirit convicted me without any christian surounding, asking hard questions..."Do you really wanna strive for power? Are you happy being surrounded by all those spirits? Why cant you stop the energy flow if it is highly obvert? if I say I am truth and you believe it, how comes you are looking for other spiritual beings?" Little sparks of truth shining through an illusion of own importance. I would never in a lifetime deny the reality of Holy Spirit being our teacher and guide. The question is more the question of God's will and heart. What does he want, what is his true goal- and how fallen are we in our hybrid nature? A theology based solely on feelings, wishes and desires will necessarily let you down. A theology erasing human conflicts, death, claiming total restoration for now- pre-empts a promise that is given to us for later. Bethel Church and the related NAR movements brought forth something I would call "the right to have joy, creativity and liveliness even being a christian". ^^ The issue is that they mix up promises and are far too deep in New Age syncretisim. To have faith that God truly loves, albeit that we are in trouble because of our deeply ingrained and misled desires that will take roots in the curse, not the promise of the 10 commandments, ...I think there is underneath the beautiful truth of the gospel. But they dont wanna see accountability, neither kingship, discipleship in a sense of bowing. They want the good- and are unable to face the hardship. Both has been prophecied to us by Jesus Christ. Thank you for being so vulnerable and real, you two both. Trust Him to sort it all out over time. There will be clarity one day. Im currently writing a reconstruction book, one of the first, I guess. Its a hard process to face all those aspects in depths. Nonetheless I am glad to see two sincere people facing the challenge instead of - once again- choosing the wide road of simply dismissing and not sorting out which too often, then, results in blank bitterness and hatred. Take your time, and be sure that Jesus will support every step into true deliverance and freedom within his heart, not ours. God bless you! Ah! And you mentioned an album? I didnt understand the name of the artist, sometimes its hard as a German to deal with every accent. If you would provide it, ...I'd be thankful.
Thank you both for your honesty, integrity in telling your life journey in and through Bethel’s ministry that was raw about your faith. There was a lot here for viewers to unpack and pray on - and I hope it will be seen that way and mockers would go elsewhere. It takes courage to come forth and be open to help others. As always Alisha ❤to your cause in Jesus 🎉 to Him be the glory.
Not to pick (I think you'd want to know) but her name is actually 'Alisa' (not Alisha). 😊🤗.
Thank you 😊
After a lifetime of church attendance, from infant to about the age of 57, I left the traditional Protestant evangelical church of various denominations to a small home fellowship with a few other families. Although I am thankful for my upbringing and most of the path that I was led through in the church (met my wife there and other great people), I have grown in the Word exponentially (compared to all those years) since leaving in 2017. Since leaving, to some degree, I have found I left the religion of church.
Thank you for sharing your story. God’s not done doing his works in you. Keep trusting him ❤
Thank you 🙏🏼
This was excellent to the very last second. Accepting that good things come from those with bad theology was the hardest thing to come to terms with. I finally went with God is so good He will bless through whoever even if it’s a donkey because God is that awesome. God will do what God wants to do not because I declared it or someone else declared
Even the term “worship leader“ is a misnomer. I am the principal musician in our parish and the pastor/priest is the worship leader, not me. When we use that label for musicians, we ascribe that role to an incorrect position.
The original worship leaders were The Levites, you are correct they were Priests, but The Lord Jesus Christ made all of us Worship Leaders because The New Testament speaks of everyone being a priest. 1 Peter 2:5, Really worship is ¨presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice¨ Praise is singing, with ¨psalms, hymns & spiritual songs¨. As for singing to The Lord Jesus Christ for hours, we do this because He is Worthy. That´ś why you see that in many churches that move in The Gifts of The Holy Spirit.
@@barbarabarbera3117
Really? Is that how the Church has looked at that all through the centuries? You may want to read a little Church history so that you’re not interpreting scripture out of your own context, but rather the context of the long stream of believers who’ve gone before us. In the Old Testament, Levi’s performed subordinate services associated with public worship. The Levi’s were musicians, gatekeepers, guardians, temple officials, judges, and craftsman. They were on a rotation system. The priest held exclusive rights for service at the altar, and in the outer and inner sanctum of the temple.
Because u mentioned topic of worship..has anyone watched 7 part series by Tom Wadsworth on worship. Basically saying worship is about yes worshipping God and also lots of horizontal “edifying one another focus in NT. I’ve only watched till part 4.
What the girl said right at the end was very powerful. A great takeaway. Like one minute from the end.
Have you ever invited Kris Valloton to do an interview with you? Wouldn’t it make sense to allow them to respond to your findings and concerns directly?
Kris Valloton has had many people speak out about his domineering authoritian personality. He's wounded many people.
He will not come on these platforms, he’s been given ample opportunity to be interviewed by those who disagree with him and will not do it. And he has a public platform, therefore he can come under public scrutiny
I'm not surprised to hear this, just from seeing his videos.@@bobchevallier8456
He is an admitted false prophet. Pray for him, yes. Mark and avoid, definitely.
I've seen what they experienced way back in lakewood John Osteen Ara. Managed Gospel groups thru the Rhema and deamin chasers. Saw thousands born again in spite. God is faithful above all.
Hi, one of the things you need to have an episode on is how this is related to new age teaching like organizations like PSI a lot of the stuff that Bethel teaches comes right out of PSI and the things they teach. I had a three day course at PSI and a lot of these things that they teach they teach around telepathy and how to tap into your telepathy. Also around healings and how we all have the ability to heal and heal others they gave us techniques on how to heal people. Also music was a big part of it. Tony Robbins and Greg Braden teach all this stuff too. Love to talk to you about this!
I was disappointed that the true gospel was never shared during this program!!
Go back and listen at 17:00. She shared the Gospel.
I declare and command that your hearing to be restored. Now
@@Gregoire0 lol
It should Always go back to the Gospel. Our Need for a Savior. God's Plan of Salvation.
@@user-uo8kb5rv7n The Gospel will show us our Need and the Solution.
If a believer dies it is not a loss (except to those left behind) and to me it seems that a "dead raising" team is the true unbelief- as if we are telling God He was wrong so we're gonna do it over...grief is necessary for our healing- the dead believer has received their healing...
I Agree! I would Not want to be brought back into this Lost and Fallen World.
In Africa, the Middle East, as well as some other places, we hear authentic miraculous accounts of healing from people who were crippled, or deaf or blind. Here in America people get healed having a sore back or having sore knees. Those can be real things, but they’re also kind of “simple” things to heal, if that makes sense.
Thank you Alisa, you always have good content.
EXCELLENT video, thank you so much.
Thank you!
We should be cautious with any local church that has become a brand name and has a marketing department- regardless of how charismatic they are
Oh my gosh I just realized my church got the hidden treasure thing from bethel. Shooketh.
I’m not laughing but I’m laughing. Shooketh!
Thankyou Beautiful testimony and for
being so transparent.💕🇨🇦
Thank you so much for this interview.
I went to a Bethel church once. I don't think anyone would have acknowledged my presence there if I had been on fire.
When the prophetic word doesn't happen, this reminds me of what Melissa Dougherty said about is God's word enough, I'm misquoting that, but go watch her videos, they're good.
43:47> AWWEE... the sweet, subtle signs of a great, Christ-centered love & marriage. & protection from a man to his lovely wife:
Wife asks for reassurance: "Is that accurate?"
Husband answers: "yes" & promptly (&subconsciencly, probly) leans in closer to her.
❤
How is it configured to facilitate discipleship? Is it more structured to corporatise Christian worship?
Love you and what you do Alisa❤Blessings!!!thank you!
I live in Redding, CA and you cannot throw a stone and not hit someone from Bethel. They have taken over our County seats and City councils. They have bought up properties, homes, apartments, and we have MANY “Bethel Houses” in our neighborhood. We have many “acquaintances” that are Bethel as you cannot get away from it here. We do pray for them and try to witness to them when approached by them. Not accusatory, but more like Ray Comfort (I love you and don’t want to see you be led astray by this world. This is very serious as it is about your eternal destination. Will it be Heaven or Hell. Etc.)
Hi Alisa. I am not qualified to defend the Bethel Ministry as I have never attended even one of their meetings. I have been to a couple of so called "treasure hunts" your guests referred to though with my church pastor and some other congregants. We did not do the checklist thing the guests spoke about. We just prayed before heading out into the city streets asking the Holy Spirit if He would help us in connecting to those He leads us to. Some of us had maybe a insight or vision of sort prior to heading out and if or when that in fact unfolded then of course God gets the glory. I don't know that any of us thought of ourselves as any thing special other than Believers following the Holy Spirit loving people. And I am curious about your guest who said that the Gospel was not even presented. Presenting the Gospel is the whole purpose of the outreach. We could do it the modern Baptist way of handing out bible tracs. No problem with that. But I believe, as you say "the historic Christian Gospel" way is packed with miracles, visions, etc. If you get out of this western culture and go into places like Asia, Africa, and the Middle East you will witness the "historic Christian gospel" with signs and wonders. I hope you will reach out to Sean Feucht, Todd White, or others and get another viewpoint. I believe your heart is in the right place and don't want to pass judgement on this. And I see many more people being saved and baptised in Sean Feucht events than in any lukewarm Baptist church. I have been a born again believer for almost 50 years now and all of it in the Charismatic church one place or others. I have seen it all, the good and the bad. The Church has some wolves in sheep clothing. Jesus warns us about them, If you study His Word and love Him, He will expose them and steer you away from them or remove them. They were there in the days of Apostle Paul and they are here today. It doesn't mean we should cast away our powerful relationship He desires to have with us which does include miracles, etc.
"than in any lukewarm Baptist church" I don't think charismatic Christians understand how much they talk down to some of the denominations. It makes me sad to see it.
Being humbly constrained by a desire to follow proper doctrine doesn't make one lukewarm. Arrogantly seeking to wield the Holy Spirit like Simon in Acts 8 was and is worthy of rebuke (to say the least). Men like Todd White have done damage to the testimony of the church by continuing to practice baseless nonsense for their own gain despite being repeatedly exposed as charlatans. The same goes for these narcissists who claim to be able to raise the dead and then prove to everyone that they are liars. I know that sounds harsh to some, but the honor of God who created us and gave himself to redeem us is infinitely more important. While God certainly works through miracles, it seems obvious that His working normally comes through His supernatural arranging of life's natural aspects. Daniel saw miracles during the exile through which great things happened. Esther and Mordecai saw their faith and courage rewarded without a single miracle, and yet great things happened. There were times the apostles did the miraculous like Jesus. Other times they were constrained to the natural like any of us - as in Paul telling Timothy to drink some wine for his sick stomach. God's ways are not our ways. It takes humility to let Him lead as He wills. Resorting to fakery to try to force reality to fit how we think it should be - how we think God should be working - is not spiritual. It is rebellious.
I see things exactly like you! @@Curly_Maple