The Zealot Jungle Which is Growing Up Around Us - Letter from Fr. Seraphim Rose
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ย. 2021
- Excerpt from the Q&A session for Lesson 4 of Russia's New Martyrs & The Catacomb Church by Fr. Peter Heers
For full access to all Q&A sessions and previous classes, sign up at patreon.com/frpeterheers
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As a GOARCH member that converted in 2019, I appreciate this so much. With every new blasphemy and controversy from these leaders I feel the pull to find "the ideal", but I have resisted it for fear of bringing my protestant church hopping into this new spiritual race I'm running. These blessed words of Fr. Seraphim have brought me clarity, very grateful Fr. Peter!
Courage, brother!
@@sargael agreed! We’re not gonna throw in the towel which the evil one wants us to do. The devil will tempt the ones with the truth. We are all vulnerable. Lord have mercy.
I totally relate to this! I am a catechumen at a Greek church and I’ve spoken with my priest about baptism and chrismation, and he said since I was baptized in a “high” Lutheran church, I would be chrismated instead of baptized when the time comes. I have thought maybe that isn’t the correct thing, but he said something that struck me as meaningful, that he does not wish to go against/rebel against his superiors, though he is very conservative in his approach to our faith. I think that tradition of submission to the greater Church and our elders is obviously of extreme importance, and if I’m to become Orthodox, I should keep that up and not “shop around” like I would have done in the past. I haven’t been to any other parishes in my area either, as this is the closest and I feel like this is where God has placed me. And if this is where God wants me right now, then let me not wander from his will.
@@PaperParadethis idea of blind obedience goes against the Saints teachings and is of western mindedness. you need to be baptised regardless of what your priest says. you need to find a priest that will do it.
@@seraphim3TN Where are we supposed to find a priest who will do it
Thank you for illumination on this topic.
When I read Father Seraphim 's writings I felt was genuine and the truth. Same for this channel and Father Heers. You just know.
INDEED!!!!!
Glad you mention this. father Seraphim is a hero of mine, so is Father Heers. All the best
Old Calendarism is tempting as I continue inquiring. May I have your prayers tonight father? My name is Ryland.
God help you on the narrow, royal path of the Holy Fathers! Be patient. Go deep. Don’t rush.
Great video thankyou Father. Balance is not easy to maintain. One of the first things a Priest said to me recently is that I should stay away from the internet. Citing you as a good reason to do so. Which struck me as odd because I assumed you'd be listed amongst the good examples of Orthodoxy. In his defense I believe he is a good man who's just torn between doing the right thing, managing zealous e-converts (I don't say this in a bad way), and adhering to the demands of a VERY aggressive Bishop who's lockstep with the covid narrative. I don't envy the situation many Priest are in. Prayers for our tormented Priest in these tough times.
A priest recently just said if you're against the vaxx you're not orthodox. I thought I was in the twilight zone.
It seems that some of our hierarchs are wanting to control the narrative as much as our government and corporate powers. Fr. Peter is a "dangerous" voice for this agenda. It's really insane. I asked my priest about Fr. Peter because he has known him personally since the 1990s and he didn't tell me not to listen to him, but he also won't allow me to share Fr. Peter's work in our parish email group. I LOVE my priest, and I recognize that he is in a very very difficult position because our Bishop is demanding that we adhere to the mask mandate inside the church. I honestly cannot imagine being a priest in this situation.
@@EsmeeLaFleur you must be OCA
@@Bakamojo yes indeed
@@EsmeeLaFleur yea sounds familiar. Every OCA Parish in Colorado and likely the entire west coast under Arch Bishop Benjamin probably has a similar story with variations depending on how liberal or conservative/traditional the Parish and or Priest is. The Priest I spoke with also knew Fr Peter
Sadly, for many, Orthodoxy is a cause, not a way of life.
An apt description! This is why it is so hard for us to aquire an Orthodox Ethos- the focus is on being correct and on maintaining before others how correct we are instead of changing our hearts.
@@PastxPresentxDarcy yes iv noticed that, seems to be a heavy focus on the need for theological battles and wins, which invariably leads to intellectual pride.
That is doubly unfortunate when we consider Orthodoxy as a worldly/political cause. In America, the Church is small, foreign, associated with Russia (often demonized in media), clustered in the most unchristian regions such as California and the North East with no centralized leadership. If you wanted an easy victorious cause, this is not it.
@@PastxPresentxDarcy sadly, sister, you are correct. God bless you. ☦
Your blessings father. In relation to Fr. Seraphim Rose and the zealots: I spoke with the leader in America of the GOC, Metropolitan Demetrios. He was the person who "shook the boat" in Boston. 80% of "hocna" left because of his influence (even though be was young and an auxiliary bishop at the time). From his first year as a bishop, he was saying things like "we are so concerned about dogma, and we've forgotten a foundational dogma." He was referring to the unity of the Church. At first, all the things he was saying was "Chinese to them" (that's how it was expressed). He told me that when he read Fr. Seraphim Rose's letters for the first time, he saw in writing all of his thoughts about "hocna." He hates the temptation from the right and is always telling the GOC people that that is their biggest problem.
Some say that somehow God made it clear to him what to do when he left. My question is, could there be parallels with St. Ephraim of Katounakia in the sense that maybe he needs to stay with the GOC to prepare for the right time for us all of us to be untited? It seems like there are many good things there. Maybe he's playing an important role there? Maybe our house has to clean up first? He, like us, refers to contemporary Saints, but the thing is that he knew some personally and was influenced by them in a major way.
I agree, I think Metropolitan Demetrios could be who brings us back together.
We need to PRAY!
We are thankful. Many actions require a council why others (many grave errors since the repose of St. Paisios, St. Propherios, and Blessed Ephraim) are expostdacto causes for excommunication. Thus as you yourself once said according to the Cannons, the mind of the Church, and Her Saints. If one and not all three factors where not taken into consideration there would be no Orthodox Church as these 'Hierarchs' would drag us all into hell...What does St. Paul tell us about those who refuse to listen to the Church? Hold another Council to repeat Anathemas previously stated and after many rebukes from fellow Clergy and Bishops? Wouldn't this render the Church redundant or powerless? Enough has been said. In our humble Patristic, Popular, and perhaps more healthy view, the OCA, ROCOR, and yes the GOC are the Church! Yes, St. John Maxiomovich is a 'modern Saint'...Let us place this letter and or the other view at the feat of the Holy Elder Ephraim and see which one prevails! Hard hearts, make hard heads, let us humble ourselves brethren before one another before it's too late!
Thank you Father Peter for bringing this excerpt to our attention! God bless you!
Thank you Father for your wise and helpful words. I agree with all you have said yet in the end times we will have to ask "where is the Church?". When there are no bishops or priests preaching the truth, when all are heretics and worship the antichrist, what are we to do? I don't expect an answer but this time is coming soon.
May we all have your blessings Father Peter ☦️
Thank you Father. An excellent video.
Letters from Father Seraphim is a wonderful book!
Thank you, Father for this explanation! I stayed away from reading Fr Seraphim when I first converted because I heard contradictory reports about him. I was trying to avoid things that were controversial. I am glad I did that, because I have slowly learned the truth about him and I do not have the baggage I would have had if I had tried to figure out his writings by myself, like you describe. I found trustworthy people to follow and I know their words about him are true!
It seems that you have a heart for taking those who are going astray on the tight and redirecting them towards the royal path, Father. And it seems like some of them listen to you because you actually take their concerns about the health of the Church and ecumenism seriously. That is what I see, and I really appreciate that about your work. Many pastors dismiss these concerns and questions from the faithful because they want to keep people from straying to the right but they do not know how to answer the questions either.
Fr. Peter bless. "Lost in a zealot jungle"...seriously....I had to pause because of the hilarity that phrase induces.
I see jungles to the left of me and jungles to my right...
It has a "biblical tone", for the confusion could be likened to "I see men walking as trees".
Rdr john dunn
It would be a blessing if Father could lead us in prayers. I am catholic, disabled without transportation therefore unable to become orthodox.
There must be a way for you to become orthodox.
All is possible with God
Reach out to the nearest canonical Orthodox Church in your area, inform them of your situation, and see if they will make special arrangements for you (transportation, home visitations, etc.)
If that one is not, then find the next closest one and repeat. Surely there is at least a single Orthodox clergyman who is willing at least to accommodate your unique situation so as to catechize, baptize, and chismate you.
God will find you a way.
Thank you for this video, it’s put me at ease with some things I’ve been struggling with as a catechumen. I’m trying to be very careful and discerning in what I’m doing, because experience has shown me that I can be impulsive and prone to, as you say, zealotry. It’s how I ended up in a cult after being raised Pentecostal, and then going the opposite direction as a Reformed Baptist. Frankly, I can’t trust myself and my own understandings. I do not want any more ecstatic experiences or trying to seek any unnecessary miracles, and I have ceased participating in theological debates or trying to proselytize. because I realize I am too prone to prelest and pride. With all of that said, it’s important to me to just submit to my local parish and the priest there, and be quiet and just listen and learn. I’m tired of my own sin, frankly, and even a fool who keeps his mouth shut is considered wise lol.
The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad was in communiin with Old Calendarists. Also St. Nicolaj of Zica, St. Justin Popovic, St. Seraphim of Sofia..all helped the Old Calendarists. All Greek Saints and Elders....St. Philotheos Zervakos, St. Ieronymos, Elder Gervasios....
Exactly. It’s not as black and white as the legalisms on the right or left say.
Amazing book. I payed almost $80 for Fr Seraphim’s letters. I loved it: worth it.
Just ordered it from Jordanville. 20 copies left
They have more copies now. Just ordered three!
☦️🙏🇦🇺✝️
God's blessings to you and the world and all strength to you with this madness of today..coming from Melbourne Australia...the country and city no one recognises anymore
Lord Jesus Christ son of God have mercy on our brothers and sisters in Australia.
☦️
@@drcrispyjohnson2242 God bless you 🙏☦️✝️ thankyou
@@jeffdutcher3676 I know, but all borders are closed, states and country
@Angel Eyes thank you and God bless you 🙏☦️
@@jeffdutcher3676 Amen 🙏☦️✝️
I live not too far from that schismatic monastery in Boston. Father Seraphim is correct, as usual. They make beautiful icons and have a rather high quality production of books, but the way Father Seraphim describes them as "Boston Orthodoxy" is quite astute and spot-on. ☦
Thank you for this, Father Peter. May we all have your blessings!
It is even worse than in Fr Seraphim's time. Stay away from that place!
@@theorthodoxapologeticschan9378 I definitely do.
A great saint👍
This is also why Holy Scripture must be Prima. At the center. The compass in the sea of lies
Fr. Peter can u do a video explaining the bibles interpretation of the earths shape/structure/universe? Could u also explain the book of Enoch's explanation of astrology. Ur interpretation would be most helpful, Thank you.
Its not in print anymore and can‘t get it in germany 🥺
Hello and thank you for the presentation. It appears, to me, that the leaders of the Orthodoxy need to get together and work things out for the sake of all of us, who want to follow the path to salvation. Are there signs such getting together is actually going to happen? It appears, to me, that the leaders of the Orthodoxy owe it to us, the laity.
There were many letters...I guess the originals, especially with notes, would be collector items for some ; ).
🕊...
the least expensive copy of "Letters" in 2023 is $200. I've seen others for over 300$.
Father Peter, could Uncut Mountain Press republish?
St. Herman’s Monastery in Platina should publish the complete letters of Fr. Seraphim (not just the ones previously published by Fr. Alexey/Fr. Ambrose). However, we aren’t sure when or if they plan to do so.
Worth noting, a lot of people say you’re a fanatic and some say you’re too far to the left(Matthewites especially). Let us all seek to stay on the royal path!
There you go. That’s a good place to be.
Dear Fr Peter: Evlogite. I was somewhat disheartened to see this video, as one of the few True Orthodox (and it really is few, there really aren't many of us worldwide) who really appreciates your work for Orthodoxy globally, especially your more recent work on the New Martyrs of Russia. For some people, reductionist partisan politics are their hobby, and I imagine at least some of the people who prompted this video-- filled with genuine concern for souls-- are unchristened "Orthodox-adjacent" inquirers who just want to have a "most right" answer, and are more in favor of division between those who rightly believe into factions. There are a few factual errors in the video which could use a rejoinder, but the spirit of your answer is both serious and irenic. The most glaring issue was that the Boston group actually attacked all the other Greek Old Calendarists as frauds and losers-including the moderate Old Calendarist monastery at Etna, with whom Fr Seraphim maintained friendship to the end of his life- after joining the ROCOR). I should add that in fact they did likely leave because of Fr Panteleimon's canonical trial for abuse, which Fr Panteleimon admitted to in a meeting of clergy about a year before he died, which caused the vast majority to flee for the Synod of Archbishop Kallinikos of Athens, and a minority to leave for the other major "Florinite" leader, Makarios of Athens (who, ridiculously, were forced to share the building at Kaningos Street. They seem to have mellowed towards each other, presumably because they were forced to live as neighbors.)
I guess why I am writing this is because of personal frustration: in almost every Orthodox livestream I watch these days there has to be someone slagging the "fake True Orthodox", et cetera, and yet there is little concerning the actual innovators-- the ecumenists and heterodox who sponsor them. Certainly you have spoken and written at length about those folks, but I believe underlying this divisive desire on the part of many of the "complainers" and the "desperate" are the old fashioned partisans: "status quo" World Orthodox who care somewhat about ecumenism, but are willing to "cover it up" and create a facade of unity on one side, and True Orthodox partisans who think they're going to get huge rewards for getting people "on their team", which-- as Fr Seraphim correctly noted would be-- is a horribly divided mess (on the plus side-- it's only about half as messy as 30 years ago... progress I guess.)
I hope the underlying message in your video-- to keep taking spiritual nourishment from Bishops who are standing for the truth, such as those you mentioned-- is what people get from it. But my fear is that what is more likely is that hyper-partisans will try to use this to "rally the troops" instead of analyzing what Fr Seraphim is actually saying.
But I could never have predicted the Orthodox world as it is today 20 years ago, so I hope I am wrong and this further increases the glory of God on earth during this confused time.
In Christ
Dcn Joseph Suaiden
Thank you.
For what it’s worth, I have written and spoken perhaps 10 or 20 times more about ecumenism than I have about the “temptation on the right.”
@@OrthodoxEthos And thank you for what you do! I have no doubt you are doing the right thing generally, and are doing great work for Orthodoxy! So many more people know the name of my name-saint (St Joseph of Petrograd- how times have changed!) Thank you again.
Wow
God bless you 🙏☦️🙏
Typical for Greek New Calendar schismatics
@@alexandermarkus9587 May St Philotheos Zervakos intercede for you.
From Previous Vessels, p. 148:
He wrote, on the one hand, that the "new calendar was neither introduced into the Orthodox Church by an Oecumenical Council nor by a Local Synod. Rather, the Oecumenical Patriarch Meletios (Metaxakis), who was a thirty-three degree Mason, together with six anti-orthodox minded hierarchs, introduced it anti-canonically and illegally, thus showing contempt for the Orthodox Church and the traditions of the Holy Apostles and Holy Fathers." With regard to the Old Calendarist groups, on the other hand who had separated from the official Church, the Elder wrote that they had likewise erred and fallen under anathema, in that they "are transgressors and scorners of the first of f the Great commandment of Love. The commandment of love-they disdain it, violate it, cast it out, hating one another, biting at one another, beating up one another." He was especially upset that "certain zealot old calendarists believe and are of the mindset that the Mysteries without the calendar are invalid and that without the calendar there is no salvation. A greater heresy than this does not exist!" Letters of Elder Philotheos to Papa-Demetri Gagastathis (dated January 20, 1960).
Or you can easily find his letter on defending St Nektarios, whom a 'zealot' called a 'schismatic' and graceless.
Do you say all of the canonical churches are lost? So St Justin Popvich is not a Saint? Who fought ecumenism in the Serbian churches? Or Jerusalem patriarchate? St Joseph the Hesychast? Elder Ephraim? St Paisios?
Does it not make you afraid to think 'perhaps you are wrong' since there has never been a parallel 'church' created in any major heresy? The Saints stayed and were persecuted - they did not take a 'satanic peace' and call the canonical church graceless.
"Wrong in tone" Wow, the Heers, A Hart, Fr Arsenie, J Pageau ain't that the pot calling the kettle black.
Father Seraphim and Saint John were both zealots though and they opposed everything going on today in Orthodoxy, Father. Saint John himself was in Communion with the Greek Zealots. Respectfully Father. if Fr Seraphim and St John came back in 2023, where would they be?
They both would go to the Church of GOC in America because that's who they were in Communion with before the reposed! ROCOR IN 2023 is not what it was in their days.
There’s two ways you can use the term, zealot. Zeal for God, according and in God. Zeal not according to knowledge.
Discernment of spirits is the characteristic of the Saints. Each circumstance is different. No one can say for sure what the Saints would do today.
Unfortunately, the old calendarists are not the same as they were in the 60s. They have adopted a nearly Matthewite ecclesiology. Many of their hierarchs in Greece do not see the local churches as the church at all. They do not recognize the grace of the mysteries. They do not believe there is a need for a general council to be called to reject ecumenism; they believe that they alone are the church.
Such lack of discernment would certainly have driven the Saints away.
@@OrthodoxEthos That's a fair point, Father. It's all so confusing honestly. But I guess if it was even confusing for Saint Joseph the Hesychast I shouldn't act surprised
Give me Boston Orthodoxy over Sydney Anglicanism any day!
Thank you, father, for mentioning how talking to one of these guys felt to you like talking with a Protestant. That is exactly my estimation of the "True Orthodox" schismatics. They are "Protestant Orthodox." They want the outward appearance of the tradition but are too prideful to submit to the phronema of the Church and follow the practice of the Fathers. Rather, they create their own increasingly smaller and smaller jurisdictions (because even they can never agree with one another and just keep schisming) after their own designs and over which they can rule as their own popes, since only they are right and true.
It's exactly the same as when a guy in one Protestant church, if he doesn't like it there or can't grab enough power for himself, will draw people after himself and start up a new church across town, a church after his own design. Happens all the time.
Nonsense! The problem today are not "zealots" but the liberal apostates. Look at the schismatic New Calendar Greek Church. They are not orthodox anymore. New Calendar, pews, NOT EVEN ONE WOMEN HAS COVERED HAIR, no prostrations, shortened services,
Protestants innovate according to the faith. All one can say about the True Orthodox is that they devolve into ridiculous power struggles. Calling us schismatics may or may not be accurate depending on who we are talking about and why, but True Orthodox are not Protestants, and that's just a stupid slur. The overwhelming majority of people in those Churches are simply traditional Orthodox Christians trying to follow right-believing Bishops. And -- overwhelmingly true on both sides-- most of them aren't commenting on the Internet.
@@alexandermarkus9587 And what of those who attend the monasteries formed by Fr Ephraim? None of those things are even true in that case (with, from what I've heard the exception of the New Calendar-- but this is recent, and those monasteries can break communion at any time.) Further, I am fairly certain with the exception of the calendar itself, none of those things are completely true in Greece, but only the Greek Archdioceses in the US under Constantinople. And even that isn't universally true. And -- overwhelmingly true on both sides-- most of them aren't commenting on the Internet.
Glad to watch this video, I oppose the "Genuine" or "true" orthodox cause I know they have problems and more schismatics among them. I go to a Antiochian church and we have saint like priests. ☦
I have family who go to an Antiochian Church. There should be no "teams".
I think what’s important here is to oppose the “super correct” mentality no matter where we find it, both on the left and the right, both among the company men of ecumenists and the company men of zealotism.
@@OrthodoxEthos I agree, the 'super correct' mindset can get people off track and can lead into schism.
I would encourage you to seek out a good priest, they are out there.
@Have mercy on me, O Lord Orthodoxy is the way, we are the first church. The Ethos of Orthodoxy is wonderful. Orthodoxy has its problems but it shouldn't make someone leave or want to not join. The gates of hell will NOT prevail. Trust in what Jesus said about his church. ☦☦☦