COMAC Explained: China’s Boeing
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- As it is today, the aircraft manufacturing industry is dominated by two major players. You got the American player Boeing, and the European player Airbus. The two companies have been duking it out for decades while fighting off new market entrants.
One of those new entrants is Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China or COMAC. It is a Chinese state-owned company trying to challenge Boeing and Airbus in the commercial aircraft space. It represents China’s most concerted effort for this market yet.
In this video, I want to trace China’s recent work in breaking into the super-competitive commercial aircraft manufacturing industry and why it has been so hard for them to make ground.
Edits and Errata:
3:04 - I want to add that China’s granted license was for MD-80 assembly.
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For more analysis on China's industry and economy, checkout this playlist: th-cam.com/play/PLKtxx9TnH76T_4R7Lxs8QoDr64zlvt8SS.html
But if AVIC1 was focused on military plane, how come it was them who built the ARJ 21? Wouldnt the job would be of AVIC2's, which you said were built to make civilian aircrafts and helecopters?
Check out "Princes of the Yen"
did you lower your voice intentionally in this video?
I dont think China's main aim is to sell this plane to foreign customers. Their main aim is to sell this plane domestically so that they can reduce their dependence on Boeing and Airbus.
But this plane is basically 85% foreign made because of its parts. Without the US and Europe it won’t fly anyway.
If it flops it could turn out to be a turkey and a liability.
And to gain experience.
@@johanhirte9661 short term yes, most of the component are still foreign part, but in the long term the local company can make the component alone because of joint venture
@@user-gc1hg9sp9k
Yeah again technology gets robbed and the company after that kicked out.
But by I think for this companies it will be interesting. Because many can’t be copied.
China needs another 10 years to catch up in difficult fields such as semiconductors and aviation. 10 years sounds like a long time but in the grand scheme of things, it's actually really fast.
I think they can catch up in that time frame. But to have the same regulation and efficacy, it will take decades. I doubt they can get same prestige as Airbus or Boeing.
@@ramanlol If Boing keeps putting out in the market planes like Boing 737 Max then it will not take that long.
@@zhizuc.7516 lmao true.
Don't worry... We, Anglosaxon gonna sabotage them
well not if you stealing ip from your competitors and corporate espionage and forced tech transfer.
Market drives innovation/business venture. China has the market so it is natural for China to venture into this business.
It is not natural to base everything on espionage. China has been the espionage leader for decades.
I remember what Chinese branded phones were like just 10 years ago. They were of poor quality and nobody took them seriously. If they keep at this, all they need is time.
anythings possible when you steal ip from you competitors.
Yeah they just made toy phone for kids but now they are selling Huawei and Xiaomi
@@ashishpatel350 hmmm. Your proof troll? Maybe you should stop defaming China and focus on not spreading covid19 variants around the world fool! You are just jealous you can't make anything.
Well let's be honest here everyone is robbing each other even inside USA companies are suit each other every day because of stolen IPs so let's be fair this is normal global issue and it's almost impossible to solve it radically we can only reduce it through serious steps to solve it if there is a real will among governments and that's what it's lacking
@@user-mhgu6om9mj2t calm down wumao
You don't have to run faster than a bear to get away from him. Just faster than your slowest friend! ;-)
If you shoot your friend, you won't even have to break a brisk walk.
@@samuelnakai1804 Thanks Samuel! I didn't think that nugget of wisdom could be improved upon, but i was wrong!
Imagine the investigation that would ensue.
Q: Did you consider shooting the bear rather than your friend?
A: Oy...
You guys are hilarious
Why are you guys talking about bears? According to Jon you are supposed to catch a deer not run away from a bear.
Shooting your friend won't make you better at catching up to the deer. Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here.
@@Martinit0 guys please look at the sarcasm here in comments.anyways bear
You also forgot to mention that the top three largest Airlines in China are Air China, China Southern, and China Eastern. All three are government owned airlines so the Chinese government can dictate what airliners it wants to buy.
Only to a certain degree, all these are public traded companies, and they’d have to attract customers to get revenues, ain’t no major airlines’ gonna use inferior aircrafts, ARJ-21 and Xinzhou-60 are not operated by any of the major Chinese airlines cuz they know those are no good.
The CAAC dictates what all their airlines will fly.
@@martinxma6949 "It received its CAAC Type Certification on 30 December 2014 and was introduced on 28 June 2016 by Chengdu Airlines. Resembling the McDonnell Douglas MD-80/MD-90 produced under licence in China, it features a 25° swept, supercritical wing designed by Antonov and twin rear-mounted General Electric CF34 engines. "
Interesting choice of word "dictate". If the government is the largest shareholder and investor, what's wrong with having the right to make decisions...? The coka cola board members dictate the next flavor, the restaurant owner dictates the name of the dish, you dictate the color of your car......?
@@martinxma6949 clearly china doesn't care about stock market and prices, as evidenced by the crackdown of for-profit tutoring companies (which is the right thing to do IMO). but the biggest factor is safety and efficiency. I don't think the CPC will jeopardize that for national pride.
The most difficult part of any product is from nothing to something. C919 seems to achieve this.
There is a saying in China: A thousand-mile journey starts with a single step.
Love to China from the US ❤️🇨🇳🇺🇸
@@cssstylescommand4 Yes Love One Another. God's Law
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
@@rext8949 I keep reading this kind of smear or accusations, when dig further found no evidence. Huawei is leading in 5g telecommunications, the USA being a bad loser accused huawei of stealing. I an just puzzled what can huawei steal from the USA that the USA doesn't have.
6:29 Reminds me of the rocket launch industry. Funny how in that industry, Boeing has become a slow incompetent incumbent being the prime contractor for the multibillion dollar pork program: the SLS (Space Launch System) super heavy lift rocket, and the Starliner capsule. Though many argue that Boeing is also the incompetent incumbent even when it comes to passenger jets. See the failures in development of the now-grounded 737 MAX.
Most see the turning point as when engineering-driven Boeing buying the finance-driven McDonnell Douglas. What ended up happening is all the finance management replaced the Boeing management. Which was great for the share price, bad for engineering and quality.
I feel like mistakes happen especially over a span of 60 years. Just a few years ago, Airbus was seen as the incompetent one. The cycle will continue and Boeing will return to form.
totally agree, many USA defense contractors are slow incompetent incumbent because of corruption in USA congress
at this rate China would see successful indigenous Space Rockets happened first way before successful indigenous commercial airplane production.
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
I think Boeing will recover despite themselves.
I have a feeling China will do well. This looks like a great plane perfect for several different markets. Airbus and Boeing need some competition
Commercial airplanes is a duopoly. But the author says its a very competitive industry!!!
Actually Russia also had it own aviation industrial. But it had walk a wrong way, they choose western products in replace to their own build. Finally their industries are dead.
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
@@rext8949 While you simmer and cook in your biased, prejudiced juice, China will just move on. Whether you like it or not.
@@rext8949 whatever. But Huawei is wrong example for you.
I believed COMAC wanted to buy Bombardier C300 when they had financial problems and US 300% duty but Canada stopped it. Now Canada has no industry either.
If Canada had sold it to China, it would have made it go bankrupt faster. It is a well-known fact that you don't want to do any tech transfer deals with China. Most companies that are approached by China refuse.
@@MrBumbo90 You know that US companies buying Canadian companies basically kills headquarters in Canada and just maintain sales or basic research to collect tax credits? US giant companies entering Canada just kills Canadian businesses due to scale and deep pockets? In the case of aerospace, each country have high tariff on imports unless there is some local content. That is way many components are manufactured all of the world and assembled in a central location. That is why Boeing/Airbus have assembly centers in US/Europe/China. Similarly for Bombardier no matter who owns it.
@@llee4225 There is a difference between buying a company at a fair, legal market price and stealing tech.
@@MrBumbo90 when you buy a company, aren't you also buying their IPs? where comes the steal? your logic sounds strange
@@MrBumbo90 Lol "fair", "legal" market price. Just so you know, Chinese companies always have to give a much higher bid compares to other just because they are Chinese. And you wonder why many companies willing to sell to the Chinese despite all the backlash.
Balanced and erudite, without being self-consciously cool. Thank you.
Kudos. I happen to fumble on this video. No doubt every nation would like make its own Planes. Having worked in DGCA, I appreciate your interest. All the best.
Some incorrect info. Y-10 is inefficient, but not that bad, it has flown to the airport in tibet, which is way more than 1 hour. Also, the C919 did not have a 5 year delay, the maiden flight is only delayed 1 year from 2016 to 2017, and the delivery was always set around 2020, and it will very likely deliver later in this year, so about 2 years delay.
I see this same issue in everyday life. Much of what is worth doing is just plan hard and under appreciated. People don't appreciate the work and effort that has gone into the most mundane objects, and even coping many products is surprisingly difficult.
The intention to keep key technologies out of Chinese hands has always been there, aviation industry is no exception. However, China is working on complete supply chain in every industry, this is among the last.
space industry, semiconductor industry being important too, and internet technology, agriculture technology are all priorities
and WATER for the population, a lot of problems to solve
Key tech have always being kept secret to any businesses. Its a norm. If China can do it airplane , that is they have their own secret tech also. Right!!
Key tech have always being kept secret to any businesses. Its a norm. If China can do it airplane , that is they have their own secret tech also. Right!!
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
@@rext8949 Too jealous to China? If China is so incompetent, you would just ignore China instead of taking so much effort in writing this nonsense.
well researched and explained
To me the ARJ21 and C919 were never going to be the top of the industry. China never expected them to be. The issue is the second generation. That's when all of China' learning will matter. These two planes are mainly "testing" domestically and learning. That's how China works.
Never did we expect china to build a space station. Well they may be able to build a better plane to reach Beijing to london in 2 hours. Look at their bullet train.
They probably are planning the next generation right now.
@@franciskueh4141 the bullet train is germany stolen tecnology .... lol
@@markcasila8310 every one borrows from the other. The english/american builds the first train not the german.
@@franciskueh4141 normal talk of a thief ..... the chinese high spedd train tecnology was stolen from germany companies .... why the hell do you chinese CCP troll always have to bring the USA to the talk everione knows you envy the American as hell ... you dont need to bring them to every conversation
Most comprehensive and informative, as usual!!!
7:34. "it can be very easy for a third wheel to be left behind". Wow, predicted Boeing’s 2024 wheel incident perfectly.
This is awesome. Please do a video on MC-21 and CR-929
Airbus a220(Bombardier C series Jet formerly) is also a major competitor in this segment, So it will be really hard for the C919 to compete internationally, But it can sell well domestically.
This is a nice assessment of the issue rather than bashing just for sake bashing.
The tasks are only daunting if you just keep on watching. If you start working on it based on specifications, things becomes easier.
The specs and data sheets is your guide. And your end point. Which is your product. Ex is the hydraulic or avionics system.
Amazing video!
@ Asianometry - Excellent video, just like your others which focus on semiconductors. Please do a video on how China managed to crack open the secrets of jet engine design with their Shenyang WS-10 and others in the WS series. Thanks in advance John! And I've just subscribed.
Great video again Asianometry.
Human resources is the key. They couldn't make those exotic turbine blades before. Now they can.
Continuous daily work will eventually get you results.
I admire how you explain the business aspect of running an airline. You really know the topic.
I saw an interesting documentary about the early days of Airbus. One of the people who was involved in the design of the A320 recalled that back then, everyone was painfully aware that they would stand absolutely no chance taking on a competitor as renowned and established as Boeing if their product was merely as good as Boeing's. They though that they had to offer something much better than what Boeing had at the time. As much as I wish well to COMAC and am thrilled to see a new manufacturer potentially enter the market, the fact remains that not only the C919 isn't much better than today's A320 and the 737, it's not even on par with them.
But do you need something better or on par in a completely corrupt country/government/society that has stolen much of it's tech?
You do, if you hope to sell it on the world's market. COMAC has global ambitions, allegedly the name was even chosen so that it can be the "C", after A and B. The C919 is virtually guaranteed to be a success on China's domestic market and it could presumably live on that alone, but the ambition is that airlines from the whole world would buy it, including in the US, Europe and the Middle East.
You don't have to run twice as fast as a deer to catch it, you maintain a steady pace.
but you'll have to run faster than a deer in which the difference in speed allows catchup in desired timeframe. You don't wanna spend a week just to hunt for a meal.
@Vincent Tan,
Paul Meyer is right. China never wants to run faster, but China keep the steady pace of his technology development. Now you can see who has loose their stamina?? Chinas stamina is at peak right now.
@@NorthDicks if its a steady pace, why is there a peak?
@@NorthDicks yeah well if you're slow and steady, by the time you can make a viable airliner... Boeing and Airbus will be making spaceships. Also, I don't see either losing any stamina or speed. Even the pandemic didn't slow them down.
Wise
I worked for Boeing Commercial Airplanes for 25 years. 17 years building the 747 and 8 years with Boeing A.O.G.
I went to Shanghai to perform a pickle fork corrosion service bulletin. Boeing was investing in a M.R.O. there and had sent some personnel to assist in training the workforce. I had a chance to walk around some of the work the Chinese were involved with. I remember seeing a fastener that had been replaced by one with a larger diameter countersunk head. It was too high when torqued down which meant they needed to remove the bolt and countersink the hole to the correct depth. They had a different solution for it. They took a microshaver to the head to try and grind it down flush. The mechanic seemed terrified he had made the mistake to begin with. Of course it was repaired correctly in the end but it really made me wonder how many mechanics would pull shit like that for fear of losing their job. I witnessed enough stupid working in the Everett factory over the years. Some of the managers I worked for were clueless dolts.
Looks like you were doing some shit job given that Max's fall like dead birds
Indeed technology seems universally to lack talented human resources, but makes up with bullies and arm twisting!!!
Great work, John! thank you.
"There are no blue oceans here." Man, that's a tough pill to swallow for upstart players, but it's the truth.
Whether it wide-bodies, narrow-bodies, regional/business jets, or turboprops, each sub-market is already cornered.
Nice overview of China commercial aircraft industry. I did structural analysis for both ARJ-21 and C919 based on ALCOA alloys. However, China has to buy Alcoa alloys or redesign C919 based on materials they are going to use.BTW, C919 geometrically is exact copy of A320. I don't understand why Airbus do not claim patent infrigion?
hs 1120 is engaged in the usual western unsubstantiated claims.
its not a copy, is it were I am sure they would sue
Welcome to the real new world.
the Y-10 part has so many errors. firstly, the 707 rev part, i.e. the real Y-10 program was started near 1976, which was really really close to the "reform" era. It was there because at that time China didn't have a normal relationship with the "west", so buying planes from Boeing and etc. was not so easy. but shortly after 1978, China bought 747s and other 7x7 models, there was no need for a older gen 707 like plane.
and you really don't need to add up little pieces like it was ordered by who like it would in the USSR. in China, even in the 70s, tech programs were managed by those who knew what they were dealing with. Mao only cared politics and some bits of foreign affairs.
and also, Y-10 carried really quite a few very high level gov officials during her maiden fight. people were proud of it, not afraid. it is a 707 rev one and it is a long range model for continental trips. the "only one hour flight time" claim is way way off.
finally, Y-10 program was cancelled not because it is so bad, after all it is already built and got her maiden flight. it is because it is a 707 type (narrow body) appeared in 1990. its direct competitor 747 were operated by Chinese companies for over 10 years at that time. basically no need for 707, that's why.
This is enlightening 💡👍🏾
China isn't the only one, Mitsubishi also built their own commercial airplane but it has been put on halt coz of the difficulties in getting certifications and financial constraints ofcourse.
This channel actually has a video on that exact plane. And it’s one of my favorite videos by this guy.
Airplane is a highmargin higest value added manufacturing on earth. From aluminium ore to an airplane one.
Count it weight and expect how much the money value added in all through supply chain and huge employment.
Thats why a big country who has it's market size and human potential can't ignore.
Had Japan have it big market like China , It wouldn't have hesitate building it's own.
Look at Brazil or Canada. The Canadian had it manufacturer Bombadier dissolved because of US pressure , not because Canadian plane does not good. So your comment seems to be a short sight.
Good work!
Your inside knowledge is amazing !!!!
Problem is the jet engine, I don't call Ambraer and Mitsubishi truly independent if they still use US engines.
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
@@rext8949 agree, pretty much China achievement in recent decades attributed to foreign tech transfer. First it was the Soviet and then the west. I doubt they can go further if CCP keeps being in denial. They need the world as much as the world need them.
Wish China success with their airliner development. Hope to have cheap plane tickets for all!
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Good information.
Amazing research and historical data in amusing voice narration...
Wonderful analysis and videos! I wonder if you could talk about China's EV industry. Also, not sure if suggesting you raising the pitch of the sound recording (via editing) by one octave will hurt your pride. While I can adjust the TH-cam playback speed (I played some at 1.75X and the rest at 1.5X, and 1.6X would have been ideal if TH-cam allowed), TH-cam unfortunately does not adjustment of the voice pitch.
search pascal coppens on utube.
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
@@rext8949 Whatever man. If Chinese only know how to copy & innovate, why is Huawei leading the 5g race?
@@aymericdekerdanet9318 Some troll is out of words, you know who I mean ..
The US decoupling program will force china to gain the know-how and experience in many field..
Without decoupling, i don't thing china will produce a viable passenger jet comercially because such product demand a very.......very high trust and confident.
I'm just happy to see China developing its own industries and reducing dependency on the west. It's amazing how quickly things get can get done.
today c919 has started its first commercial flight
@@khein2204 Yes, I saw! Thanks for the info.
China probably spent some 30+ years and countless state money into its commercial airliner program. But its technology sharing nature with the military means even if they didn't end up with a commercially viable product. They were making great strides in making large military transport aircrafts!
You mean they didn't steal the plans for the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy?? Don't think so....
Regarding the "indigenous" Chinese high speed rail technologies.. As the head of Siemens kindly put it, there is a lot of "overlap" between them and the patents of the German and Japanese HSR companies. Basically, China made trivial changes to existing technologies shared with them and then pretended they were created by the Chinese.
" Trivial changes " Sounds so easy...
@@directxxxx71 it is supposed to be easy, hence the name trivial
Great video! Thanks!
Actually the arj21 is similar to boeing 717 as the company that makes it used to assemble the md-80. The majers of comac c919 currently assemble the a320.
The ARJ21 wing was designed by Antonov in Kiev Ukraine.
not exactly. ARJ is more similar to MD80, in fact some of its parts design and manufacturing is from MD80/90, that’s the legacy of MD’s China program back to the 1990s.
ARJ 21 is an ok plane, and production has been accelerated since 2019. C919 will be a better one and likely to be a commercial success simply because china’s supersized aviation market.
As for safety, I don’t think it’s going to be a problem as both of the planes were test intensively, there were no signs of rushing or courting corners for safety features.
I hope for their success, better than just duopoly airbus and boeing
Boeing was to purchase Embraer of Brazil, a commuter plane maker. there is also Bombardier of Canada.
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
Not too bad when compared to Mitsubishi regional jet
Earlier ,I thought US would allow its domestic airline to patronage Japan MRJ. But later they don't.
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
@@rext8949 sounded like how US started off
Question maybe you had mention this before but I did not see it but western countries requiring to help China workers on tech products they west would like to share, tech transfer, is it the same for Asian countries doing business in China? Like TSMC would need to teach China if TSMC was selling CPUs to China? Thanks.
Any firearm brands who won any US bereau's order MUST set up it's factory in US.
THE same.
The main reason China is developing their own planes is to keep up with Chinese demand for
airliners. There is too much demand. China cannot wait years for an airliner. Also old planes have to be replaced with new planes because of air safety regulations. So there is a huge growing backlog for airplanes
It's good that they have at least something, even if it's 10 years behind. They have to be ready to withstand a period of Washington sabotage of supply of thousands of different parts. The most problematic component is the turbofan engines, where western producers like GE, Rolls Royce, Pratt&Whitney, CFM International have continued to increase fuel efficiency, despite the consolidations. The problem is as hard for China, as entering the club latest-generation chip producers.
I hope Washington does sabotage those red bastards.
China will get there, despite the enormous challenges. Like in many other fields, China is shut out by the West on many technologies - but China can still develop its own Beidou navigation system, Space Stations, rockets - don’t count China out on semi-conductors, commercial aircrafts...China still has a market most nations want a slice of the cake, including US and EU. Let’s see who has the last laugh.
Indeed.
The only reason China is even remotely close in any Tech field is precisely because they have a market. Otherwise companies like Boeing wouldn't sell/Exchange tech for a portion of the market. China hadn't been shut out until recently, so everything in your wish list above was mostly copied from western countries just like Comac planes. Besides exchanges, Chinese companies have stolen/Hacked/reverse engineered much western tech. People can get mad all they want or try to call me a Racist but the truth cannot be changed. If the west had not done business, shared, or opened markets to China they would still be far behind the west.
Boeing estimates China will need 8,600 planes over the next 20 years. 737 max and A320 each cost $ 100 million. C919 only cost $50 million. Chinese airlines Saving 8,600 x $50 million = $430 billion. Plus money does not leave the country buying imported planes. Money can be reinvested and recirculated back into the domestic economy. Also local jobs created along with domestic airline manufacturing industry.
Comac should innovate on the safety of commercial aircraft in case of failures.
They'd need to steal that.
First Honda motorcycles were exact copies of American motorcycles.
First American spinning maschine was a copy of the brits.
As has been pointed out many times by wise people, we build on the shoulders of those who went before us.
Fun fact: China was the pioneer in paper money. China is also the pioneer in digital money (CBDC).
To say COMAC China's Boeing is inappropriate, as Boeing has lost its previous glory & reputation, it is better to call COMAC China's Airbus.
I think a third airline manufacturer will be welcome by the market. Could comac be it?
In the 14th minute of the film, the development of China's high-speed rail is mentioned, but the picture also shows Taiwan's high-speed rail. This is a completely wrong picture, because Taiwan's high-speed rail system has nothing to do with China!
China does not need their own version of the Boeing conglomerate, they should innovate on their own. The Indian/ Pakistanis have been the major thorn in the flesh of China. China needs to free themselves ideologically but keep a working friendship as the Indian continent has close tiles to the United Kingdom thus Americans who have no love for China and feel threatened which is not real as China really only wants smooth commerce between countries. The Americans want control which the Chinese will not accept.
It’s great to see China executing their own technology,its a great learning tool, China now no longer has to reverse engineer aeroplane technology now the have built their own so now comprehen what is required to build their own planes, just like the now know what it takes to build a processor chip that is competitive.
im really skeptical about your claim that the aluminum alloy was "too heavy" there isn't that much of a difference in density between aluminum base alloys across the spectrum, although the strength, durability, corrosion resistance, and other material properties are hugely dependent on the manufacturing processes and controls associated with aerospace alloy component processing. I am a foundry guy by trade, and I have seen first hand how you can get double or triple the physical properties out of different versions of "the same alloy" that pixie dust you blow into the crucible, or alternatively the restriction of certain elements makes MOST of the difference. Being able to precisely control all of the other variables involved in metal casting or processing is just another deep layer of knowledge/application unto itself. I could make finished parts out of sand cast CA 954 aluminum bronze for like 1/4 the price of obtaining ampco alloy25, (for most peoples analyses were the chemically the same) but some customers saw 10x the wear properties of the ampco products vs my sand cast versions. its bonkers.
Ih bdw, did you make a video about new Russian Chinese passenger plane yet? I would love to hear your thoughts about it.
Sarcasm as expected.
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
@@rext8949 Well the history will remember this period as the days of espionage wars. It is nothing new in the world. All countries that can do it since the beginning of the time. Remember the silk bug stolen from the Chinese by a Japanese priest?
Google itself will give them access to all the documents in existence.
Soon, China will pay A LOT to get whatever experts they need. They will come. China will have ALL the tech. It is that simple.
And I believe that it is too late to stop them and what is the best thing: NOBODY will try to stop them.
@@rext8949 That yourself imaginary which its result of communist brainwash path pool of medias in your country. Communist is not a brand but its approach , means in making people's view or did in way deep state has directed.
Everything fall in this approach category , it means COMMUNIST. And YOU are one of the prey who unintentionaly confess by spiting out cleaning brain after being washed.
@@rext8949 you're copy pasting it everywhere
Huawei and Google compete in completely different field, at least go educate yourself
China today is like what Japan was back in the 1980s. I hope they can make it.
Very likely. Among other many favorable factors China is much much bigger than Japan.
@@vc4510 Agree. China has alot more natural resources than Japan.
They managed to drop sensitive equipment intact onto Mars so they should manage to knock together a decent plane methinks.
@@vc4510 China has a housing bubble and aging demographic problem many times larger than Japan. The only thing favorable about China is it’s electronics manufacturing capacity.
In 2050, we will come back here and say China is like Japan in 2010s.
totally not a dreamliner body with a320 neo wings. also what a time to launch the c919 when the boeing 737 max is still grounded in china with no date for return to re-certification.
I think it will do well. It would be nice if the US Carriers would pick a few of these up
@@jasoncentore1830 there is enough outrage when US carriers buy airbus, let alone comac.
👍very fair!
The 737 Max has self opening doors, it will open in flight so passengers can parachute out in an emergency. Perhaps it has a snake detector, so when it detects snakes on the plane, it opens a window.
Airbus and Boeing had lots of success, starting with simple designs, working up iteratively to current very complex designs. It seems near impossible for China to jump into such a complex and competitive space. They can perhaps find a company with technology to buy or industrial espionage.
12:00 Don't forget the Russian MS-21. Ruskies are also competing in this segment and if their airplane does what they state is its performance, then it would be better in fuel efficiency and operating costs than Airbus A320 and Boeinh 737 MAX. Then there is the issue of MAX reliability. Boeing have undoubtedly undermined its good name and image or reliable vendor with the 2 crashes. Many airlines when they choose to go either Boeing or Airpus bpath are committing to long term partnership no doubt, but there are new airlines comming to market as the old, bulky and unflexible ones did not survived the pandemic travel crisis. So if there ever was a time to sell new airplanes to new companies, its comming now....
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
the real funny part is its mostly American because of all of the Technology, GE engines, and parts with some European parts and a little bit of Chinese parts.
Chinese products of aeroplanes are copies of former USSR models. Anyhow they're trying to do something. It should be appreciated. But there can be no compromise in the matter of safety of passengers.
A Chinese Comac jet for $20 million or Boeing and Airbus jet a $60 million may make the market think twice.
yes, think twice. cuz cheap stuff might have higher risk in safety aspects..
Airbus a300 , 320, 330, 340 especially was a copy of the Illuyshin so i dont see why everything others build should be looked at as Boeings or Airbuses. The Comac is a comac and lets give it its credit.
Here’s hoping for Chinas success!
🤣🤣🤣
Yeah 20 years or more to copy cat.
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
@@rext8949 Exactly how every up coming power has started.
China C919 Reverse engineering from general electric engineering and Trump engineering Stop sell to China..
www.cnbc.com/2020/02/15/trump-administration-may-stop-exporting-ges-engines-to-china-wsj.html
They can buy all local airplanes. Boeing and Airbus will be closed out of a lucrative market
Whatever takes 50 years to make by the westerners, takes only 10 years or less for the Chinese. Space Station is the best example. Soon, I mean even before we know the domestic demand for flights in China will be greater than the USA and European domestic and the flights between the USA and Europe combined. That means COMAC will never need an international market. In fact, they will struggle even to deliver to the domestic market orders. Whatever you do in life never ever underestimate the Chinese. They have both the cash, very smart kids and willing to do things.
Things happen fast when you can steal.
@@chinogambino9375 It takes real skill to steal, comprehend what you stole and then implement what you stole. Whining online however, is easy. Lol
@@tat3179 What was it God said about stealing? Oh yeah, it’s a NO on his top ten list.
@@davidmanasas6606 Tell that to the Europeans and Americans
Yeah, like 15 years ago they had no high speed train and today they have the largest high speed train system. They developed their own gps satellite quite soon and Chinese space station is also another quick progress.
i will never set foot on a max ever
They wanted to name their aircraft industry after an obscure Star Fleet admiral.
Interesting video, And wow, you pronounce "Pakistani" correctly; well done!
This plane is suspiciously similar to the Russian MC 21-300 that has just being flown
SHE FLIES
20 years back there was hardly any Chinise built Ship ! Today the biggest shipyard is in China. ( Cosco Dalian ). Same thing will happen at planes too.
That’s wishful thinking and a false correlation.
When it’s come to China the question is not if they can do it? More like when they’ll achieve it?
Provides an excellent insight into the aviation manufacturing progress by the chinese players and their (Chinese government) ambitions. Will China get there? (to becoming a viable competitor to Boeing and Airbus). Maybe, but at what cost? Wouldn't it be better to go do something quite different, such as a jumbo size drone?
Yes, without any doubt it will. Asia’s market will cover the most of world’s market in all areas including the air transportation/aerospace sector, given the rapid economic and population growth by 2040s according to countless studies. China will be ready to supply all the demand from the rising middle class in Asia, which will be the world’s majority.
@@cssstylescommand4 I respect your confidence! But just like the internal combustion engine (ICE) in cars, where electric vehicles are going to take over, I wonder if the same thing is going to happen to fossil fuel planes.There are currently drones that can transport a few people. If that can be scaled up in the near future, then that will be the future. Just saying!.
Whatever incremental advances China has made is thanks to an army of hackers and espionage agents. Every few months you have cases of Chinese citizens being caught stealing industrial secrets from other countries. Without the advanced chips and sophisticated imported equipment China is helpless in its attempts to move forward. Huawei is one of the basket cases which have imploded because of the lack of access to Google. Most of the Chinese auto companies are based on western technology. The Chinese Govt applies pressure on foreign companies to share their technical expertise as a prerequisite to doing business there. China is able to win foreign contracts because of its predatory pricing and dumping of goods. For the next few days people around the world will have to keep their fingers crossed while the "sophisticated" Long March rocket decides where to fall. So much for the vaunted Chinese might.
Good video, but you glossed over the Douglas MD80, which the Chinese partner nixed once the Tech and machinery were brought into the country.
MD80 is out of date. It's helpful, but not so helpful as you thought.
What do you mean "Chinese partner nixed" MD80? All of the contracted domestic production MD80 models were completed as contracted. It was Boeing that nixed the follow up program once they bought McDonald Douglas.
thats a really interesting perspective on boeing/airbus. they dont make planes they are just the UPS/logistics kings of Just-in-time manufacturing. kinda explains why when BA finally shut down some of the MAX's supply lines during grounding, that was the most significant crunch on the stock price during the whole crisis (other than the 2 crashes obviously). Spirit aero systems I think was what everyone was talking about? idk.
imo the two most technologically advanced things to come out of WW2, (prolly the most innovative period in the last 100yrs), was nukes and the Junkers Jumo 004. Okay maybe the BMW 003 was better but with material shortages the Jumo was more practical of a jet engine.
The single most complicated part/system of any plane will always be its engine, and at least for the commercial aviation market, that is truly the most consolidated market in the world. Its just GE + rolls royce... (okay fine there is that company that makes those ruskie Ilyushin jet engines with a stupid amount of titanium)
One axiom that I have observed at least in both commercial + civilian jet engine mfg, is that the technological difficulty or barrier to producing a given engine scales exponentially with that engines radius. This is why if you look at all of the legit export competitors to the US F35 (a single engine aircraft), theyre all 2 engine aircrafts (russia + china). That shit is just too hard to make, maybe more than the entire rest of the plane...
I am skeptical that any chinease company will ever catch up to the US+UK duopoly in this case and even if they produce a competitive aircraft, the US+UK will find some way to undermine COMAC's efforts. like for example unofficially telling GE+RR they can only export a certain number of engines per year to COMAC. This leverage I think is one of the reasons why china went stupid investing into highspeed rail.... even cannibalizing their freight logistical capacity at the same time. Explains why you can have a coal shortage and there are always so many dang dump trucks on the roads leading to poor road quality in rural areas and high accident injury rates.
China is stuck between a rock and a hard place. on one hand they can put their full weight behind COMAC and watch it get bankrupted by US+UK conspiracy, or they can put their weight behind highspeed rail and continue to absorb the net welfare costs associated with its high operating costs and low utilization. I just wish they would pick one instead of sitting on the fence
good vid, thanks for uploading as always
China first lessons : this is not always done by reverse engineering, tech transfert, cheap labor, heavy state subsidies, copyright infringement, protectionism, debt trapping etc... You need to be good by yourself too - democracy can be a way to go to ensure this...
Where's my Xerox?
In a factory in Shenzen.
Nowa days, China products are very good. I used to buy things by Taobao when I was there, and all products are very good very satisfacties. I hope china do more and more.
Comfort inside an aircraft as far as to how cramped the seats are is the sole responsibility of the customer. The manufacturer will install as many seats as the customer wants as long as it doesn't compromise the safety of the aircraft. What Airbus and Boeing have done to maintain the duopoly is by buying out the startups when they started making inroads into the market but this time around China will not turn back. The joint venture with Russia in the manufacture of the twin aisle aircraft- CR-929 will have a better success rate than the C-919 or the Russian built MC-21. Boeing is America's largest exporter, but they have a big problem because one out of every four planes they build heads to the Chinese market. The same applies to Airbus (close), hence it makes sense for China to have it's own jetliner manufacturer.
Update: First C919 delivered for commercial service in December 2022
there's a big difference between how long it takes the first person to invent (come up with) a technology, innovate on it (r&d) and perfect it, and
how long it takes the people who come after that, to basically work with a blueprint.
This is what Brits said when Americans stared mass producing textile
4:20 lol mentions 737max like it had absolutely zero issues. 736 max is suicidal !!!
The deer stumbled!
There is a simple question that Asianometry and other China modernizers need to consider. There are other governments in the world, with per capita GDPs far higher than China, but do not invest state resources into such prestige projects, why is that ? I am sure the EU would like to invest a few billion and get a semiconductor business going, Japan and Korea could invest in getting airline industries set up.
The EU and US have laws against state-backed-enterprises being anti competitive. The thinking is if a state funds a project then it's unfair for private enterprises in the same sector. Although exceptions and rules get bent, e.g. Boeing being a large beneficiary of state "aid"
@@SerBallister Apart from the question of fairness and competition, there is the matter that the investments in these prestige technologies are made by suppressing the wages of Chinese workers. When asianometry says that 'China's domestic market for XYZ is huge', it rarely means that the Chinese people are consuming that product. They are usually intermediate imports brought in for final assembly.
Korea and japan are smaller comparative to usa and EU. That's why it's no use to them. It would waste a lot of money when it's mo need for them. Bigger countries in terms of population and size like usa etc need it
The Chinese and Russians are collaborating on a challenger to the 787 and A350. It’ll be China’s first wide-body airliner.