It's not the actual brake calipers and rotors that do the regenerative braking. It's the electric motor absorbing some of the torque from the driveline while slowing. That's why it's so hard for manufacturers to calibrate and balance the pedal feel, and why most hybrids have strange braking characteristics.
Now people want recognition for being the first to like a comment? Is this what we've become? Go learn a sport and be first in something meaningful. Fuck.
Demitri Solvinski kids like you ruin the internet.. Nobody here gives a shit about being first... I only said it to further and indirectly explain WHY im glad to see the comment has so many likes... Didnt save me any typing as im here explaining myself to you anyways... Stay in school because you clearly fucking need it, badly.
Someone's parent at my school, has a Panamera, and he managed to make it uglier with a reflective gold wrap. It looks like something a rich carpet dealer from a Bollywood movie drives.
AK02 question: what's worse - reflective gold wrap or that fluffy velvet wrap? I see that fluffy shit on a base CLS on 17in rims, my IQ immediately dropped
I own the Cayenne S E-Hybrid which I bought for my wife and I love it! Just like you matt at first I was 'so so' but the more I drove it the more I love it and now I can't wait for all the cars to be like this. Amazing tech. I love the E-Hybrid!
For those you wondering why the car has German plates, Canada gives temporary permits for vehicles to be imported into the country for "exhibition", "demonstration" and "evaluating or testing" for up to one year without being registered. Yes, you can legally import any car into Canada and drive it around with foreign plates for up to a year with a temporary permit.
Matt, how long does the battery last? I had a bad experience in a T8 Volvo XC 90. Rated at 400bhp combined power. My experience was the electric motor drove the rear wheels so when the battery was dead I don't have AWD. Also the battery took hours to charge and would only last 8 miles real world driving. Also you could charge the battery with engine, but the gas tank was so small because of how much room the battery took up. So my question is how long did the battery last? When the battery dies does it affect the drivetrain? How's the range of gas tank?
Pacific Marine Rd ??? Connecting Lake Cowichan to Port Renfrew ? It looks familiar.. and you are in the right area. Hope you enjoyed your time on the Island. Having just moved here; I'm learning there are some wicked beautiful roads to drive on here.
That road he's driving is my backyard, and I'm glad I got to see it through the smoking tire lens, trucks, rental campers, and blind corners, welcome to beautiful BC.
And it (the panamera) now comes in a wagon version too.. Win-win...the hyper yellow accents are nice and different, but those that don't like the attention can get the calipers in black...thanks matt, hope you enjoyed your trip
At a Concours D'Elegance show in North Carolina, I got to ride shotgun in a 2017 Panamera Turbo. Before that, the most Horsepower I had seen in a car was about 380-ish from an F-Type S. That Panamera was 550. When we merged onto the highway, it felt as if my lungs were slammed into the back of my chest. I'd kill for that feeling again.
Suggestion for future videos: It would be nice to see a more thorough view of the interior, especially on the more luxury/comfort based cars. Maybe more shots of the center console, and back seats as well as notable amenities for passengers like entertainment systems. Keep up the good work Matt!
Just finished the video, you didn't even drive far enough to get to the good stuff :p super twisty and scenic like 20 minutes further and like an hour of just awesomeness
The technology in this car is just mind boggling. Porsche is doing a great job of being one of the few performance manufacturers doing what everybody else will be doing in about 5, 10 year's time. That being said, the maintenance cost will also be mind boggling if one of the powertrain components go wrong, but if you can afford this, then you won't necessarily worry about that either.
Question. In electric mode, I presume the gas motor would be turned off. So in electric mode, does the air conditioner still work? Meaning the AC compressor and everything?
I have been waiting to see this video! I live in Victoria and took a trip up island and passed a fleet of Panameras and thought to my self hmm that one looked like Matt was driving it, no way. Glad you got to enjoy some of our roads up here! (Even though they have horridly slow speed limits) Hope you enjoyed the VI Motorsport circuit too!
I was wondering so I checked. The calipers and rotors play no role in regenerative braking. When you push the brake the electric motors switch to reverse and slow the car down while generating electricity. The reason the brakes feel more natural when you stop harder is because the conventional brakes are doing more work.
Hey Matt, I can't speak for any other province except Ontario, but here's the rules on passing: Even on a solid line, you are allowed to pass (E.g. you can't receive a ticket), but obviously, if you cause an accident while passing on a "don't try to pass here" area, you'll be screwed. Line Markings don't construe laws in Ontario, but I am not 100% about the rest of the country.
great video as always. Could you start using a felt pad or similar non reflective mat to put on dash under the camera to get rid of reflections? Some cars are very hard to see out of through the reflection. Thank you
Spencer Guo I believe this is the road that goes from port renfrew to cowichan so drive out to sooke keep driving to port renfrew and then take the road to cowichan.
Did they state unequivocally that there wouldn't be a Sport Turismo Turbo S E-Hybrid? I just assumed that was coming, there isn't really a reason I can think of why they wouldn't build it.
Hey Matt, I am a huge fan of your videos. I love your the smoking tire from the bottom of heart. There is only one thing that I am missing. Could you please buy a geographical acceleration sensor. So you can get the exact number from 0-60 mph and from 60-???. QStarz Box is for example one of these things. Would be so cool if you cold upgrade these test cars with one of those. LOVE YOU MATT. KEEP UP the GOOD WORK =)
Hey guys, love your videos. Just a short tip: Place a polarizing filter on the front-facing camera and you will remove most of the reflections of the speaker/dashboard :)
Hope you enjoyed the Cowichan Valley and the Vancouver Island Motorsport Track. Unfortunately a select few negative nancy's in the area are trying to get the track shut down. www.change.org/p/municipality-of-north-cowichan-keep-the-vancouver-island-motorsport-circuit-running
10 piston front calipers? I must have heard you incorrectly, twice...because that is ridiculous. I was so happy to move up to 6 pistons on my Camaro SS 1LE ... time for an upgrade!
in theory when you drive this car, could you just punch it at say 1500rpm and pull pretty hard? this thing seems like it would be a dream car for a Vegas trip. Probably could cruise at 120 all day.
apparently it can do it in 2.9-3.0 seconds, however the M5 does it in 2.8, but I do know that the 7 series is more of a competitor than the 5 series to this
I knew that road looked familiar, I live on Vancouver Island, and I have no idea how many times I've done the Renfrew Loop now, it's one of the only places on the island where you can get away with driving spiritedly on public roads.
Donato Tummillo Visited V, BC twice in my youth and you live in an absolutely gorgeous part of NA. I’m a Texan that lived in San Diego for a decade, where you can motor to virtually any environment in a few hours, and I still am fascinated by BC. Traveled all of the US and think y’all have the most gorgeous bit of country up there. All the beauty of the Pacific NW without all the freaky-deakys. Plus, Canada. Bravo. Fun looking road to boot.
Hey Matt you obviously filmed this video today and did all the editing then uploaded it this morning so do you want to hang out with some fans in Victoria since you must still be on the island.
Only thing i don't like about this review is that after you bungle the launch (because you just had to do it in manual, go figure) you never redo it, which is a pity. Other than that, well done, as usual.
So much tech and mechanical engineering, imagine how many computers this car has to make it work. You wouldn't want to have this car after a lease without service warranty.
Matt it would be nice to edit parts of the car like the instrument cluster when you talk about it. I think this way you can increase the quality of your videos.
Matt, you need to do the "Duffy Lake loop" if you ever find yourself in Vancouver with a good car and a day to kill. If you have a weekend, you need to visit the Kootenays via the Crowsnest Highway. Plus I think you'd fit right in with the fine folks of Nelson. :) If you're in the Seattle area with a day to kill and no passport, make the run to Winthrop WA. Oh, and the new Panamera is groovy, but there's better ways to spend a quarter-mil than a one-plus-sized fits none car. Unless you're a Gazprom "executive" or something.
If the hybrid battery actually charged up during a hot lap then either a) the car was in the wrong mode, or b) the car wasn't being pushed hard. Does anyone else see how that's not possible? For every braking zone on a racetrack there's an acceleration zone right after it, and the generators aren't doing all the braking- the brakes work too. Even so, it's not possible for the car to have gained battery energy if it was using its full power.
It really depends. With a car that fast, how much time are you really going to have the pedal mashed to the floor? Every second the engine is on w/pedal anywhere put mashed... the engine is also charging battery. Assuming motor is behind the trans, gearing will affect that a lot too. When you downshift in high revs, you're charging the ever living fuck out of the batteries. It wouldn't surprise me at all that some tracks put more into battery than take out when the engine is pushing 550hp on its own. With a boat and no aero like that... how much can you really come hard out of every corner? I wouldn't be surprised if analysis showed you rarely even got into the electric hp on top of the engine.
Hey welcome to Vancouver Island. I saw a few of those cars driving around Victoria, and they are gigantic. Way too big, but out on the open road probably pretty nice. No idea where that road is but you can definitely pass if there is no centre line.
I hope this means Porsche is looking into N/A Hybrid 911s. It'll be so much more exciting and soulful to drive than the turbo Carreras that we have now
that interior is a work of art... Absolutely beautiful.
I wish I could shit out panameras
TH-cam Videos And the price tag is exponentially higher than your NET worth will ever be lol.
This comment chain is a special ed roast session
TH-cam Videos, Did you really just try to call him out for using "lol" on the INTERNET? HAHA
Good one, hope that validates some sort of impotence that you experience ;)
It's not the actual brake calipers and rotors that do the regenerative braking. It's the electric motor absorbing some of the torque from the driveline while slowing.
That's why it's so hard for manufacturers to calibrate and balance the pedal feel, and why most hybrids have strange braking characteristics.
Thanks Casey. I'm astonished no one else noticed.
stashgumbo I did too, I assumed Matt just misspoke. It's hard to spout off info like he does while driving quick.
Was gonna say this. Brakes turn momentum into heat only.
Finally. Someone gets how regenerative braking actually works.
Came here to say this. Regen brakes turn your electric motor into a generator.
Respect to matt for telling everyone that Porsche paid for his accom and food; not enough journalists do this 👌🏿💯
He didn’t tell us about the hooker they sent to his room though.
But how does it handle in the open water? :P
The brake calipers don't help with regenerative braking? Correct me if I'm wrong?
The e-charge mode sounds like the best system in a hybrid, i like the idea of charging on freeways and not polluting in cities
Matt's the kind of guy to make good money selling Ball Powder
teige Hanley?
Khu NoPie i was the first to like your comment early this morning, and am glad to see its gotten some recognition. Hilarious lmao
Now people want recognition for being the first to like a comment? Is this what we've become? Go learn a sport and be first in something meaningful. Fuck.
Demitri Solvinski kids like you ruin the internet.. Nobody here gives a shit about being first... I only said it to further and indirectly explain WHY im glad to see the comment has so many likes... Didnt save me any typing as im here explaining myself to you anyways...
Stay in school because you clearly fucking need it, badly.
this is actually way cheaper than the turbo in many EU countries where there are tax benefits for low emission cars
Yup, here in Finland a base model Turbo S E-Hybrid costs 45k€ less than a base Panamera Turbo.
Someone's parent at my school, has a Panamera, and he managed to make it uglier with a reflective gold wrap. It looks like something a rich carpet dealer from a Bollywood movie drives.
AK02 lmao
AK02 question: what's worse - reflective gold wrap or that fluffy velvet wrap? I see that fluffy shit on a base CLS on 17in rims, my IQ immediately dropped
AK02 it really doesn't fit in with your lifted f150 with Mercia' flags all over it eh
You spelled Persian wrong
Am Persian. Can confirm
That's a good exuse if you get pulled over: I was trying to top up my battery, so I can drive in electric mode in town, officer.
Lime green=the new best caliper color
Swaz the Porsche hybrid has been rocking it for years!
Swaz it‘s called acid green bitch
The same color as the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles ooozzzzzz.
smasila thats not even the same green
Best Vines Ever thank you I was about to write the same thing
I own the Cayenne S E-Hybrid which I bought for my wife and I love it! Just like you matt at first I was 'so so' but the more I drove it the more I love it and now I can't wait for all the cars to be like this. Amazing tech. I love the E-Hybrid!
its got more battery power than the prius total power..V_V
Ek Seng Ng / it should, it's 20 times more expensive.
Yeah, but I've seen priuses with 500.000 km on the clock and still running. The panamera will barely last 100.000 km.
For those you wondering why the car has German plates, Canada gives temporary permits for vehicles to be imported into the country for "exhibition", "demonstration" and "evaluating or testing" for up to one year without being registered. Yes, you can legally import any car into Canada and drive it around with foreign plates for up to a year with a temporary permit.
That car is just beautiful. It's beautiful visually, technologically and emotionally. It's just insane.
Hope you enjoyed your time in Beautiful British Columbia. How was the new racetrack?
very cool. little tight for a Panamera haha, but in a Cayman it would have been the tits.
TheSmokingTire Would have been great if Silver Arrow Cars in Victoria had hooked you up with some of their beauties ,to hit the track.
Matt, how long does the battery last? I had a bad experience in a T8 Volvo XC 90. Rated at 400bhp combined power. My experience was the electric motor drove the rear wheels so when the battery was dead I don't have AWD. Also the battery took hours to charge and would only last 8 miles real world driving. Also you could charge the battery with engine, but the gas tank was so small because of how much room the battery took up. So my question is how long did the battery last? When the battery dies does it affect the drivetrain? How's the range of gas tank?
Pacific Marine Rd ??? Connecting Lake Cowichan to Port Renfrew ? It looks familiar.. and you are in the right area. Hope you enjoyed your time on the Island. Having just moved here; I'm learning there are some wicked beautiful roads to drive on here.
Really cool car. Time will bring these systems into a realistic price point but credit to Porsche for coming out with this integrated tech.
That road he's driving is my backyard, and I'm glad I got to see it through the smoking tire lens, trucks, rental campers, and blind corners, welcome to beautiful BC.
The question is, once depreciation hits these if the battery maintenance would be worth it. The car seems like the perfect crazy fast daily
is it just me or is 10-piston calipers not the same thing as regenerative brakes.. (around 9:05)
And it (the panamera) now comes in a wagon version too.. Win-win...the hyper yellow accents are nice and different, but those that don't like the attention can get the calipers in black...thanks matt, hope you enjoyed your trip
At a Concours D'Elegance show in North Carolina, I got to ride shotgun in a 2017 Panamera Turbo. Before that, the most Horsepower I had seen in a car was about 380-ish from an F-Type S. That Panamera was 550.
When we merged onto the highway, it felt as if my lungs were slammed into the back of my chest. I'd kill for that feeling again.
Suggestion for future videos: It would be nice to see a more thorough view of the interior, especially on the more luxury/comfort based cars. Maybe more shots of the center console, and back seats as well as notable amenities for passengers like entertainment systems. Keep up the good work Matt!
Yeah, in cars like this with lots of back seat entertainment he should sit in the rear seats and show off all the toys.
Dude your doing the port Renfrew loop! I drive this at least once a week
Just finished the video, you didn't even drive far enough to get to the good stuff :p super twisty and scenic like 20 minutes further and like an hour of just awesomeness
Can you google map me? I want to drive this! Im on the mainland
silly question, but if you run out of gasoline will the electric engine hop on ?
any idea how cold weather might affect the performance of the E-Hybrid's electric engine and batteries?
17:38 Complaint addressed. E-Hybrid Turbo S now available for the Sport Turismo.
After watching this months later again . I'm truly appreciating this hybrid and it's technology . If there is any car worth over $100k it's this one .
The technology in this car is just mind boggling. Porsche is doing a great job of being one of the few performance manufacturers doing what everybody else will be doing in about 5, 10 year's time. That being said, the maintenance cost will also be mind boggling if one of the powertrain components go wrong, but if you can afford this, then you won't necessarily worry about that either.
you should bring a little dash mat to put under your camera so we don't have to stare at the dash glare
Question. In electric mode, I presume the gas motor would be turned off. So in electric mode, does the air conditioner still work? Meaning the AC compressor and everything?
I would assume the electric motor is also capable of powering the drive belt, so you'd still have AC, alternator, etc.
Ok.
I have been waiting to see this video! I live in Victoria and took a trip up island and passed a fleet of Panameras and thought to my self hmm that one looked like Matt was driving it, no way. Glad you got to enjoy some of our roads up here! (Even though they have horridly slow speed limits) Hope you enjoyed the VI Motorsport circuit too!
Where was this drive? I'm going to Vancouver late August and I'd love to rent a car and come here.
I'd like to watch a diagnostic & repair video on this car.
Maybe I missed it, but what do you think people would cross-shop this against?
i dont know what should i buy this one or the bmw 760 LI M-paket.
I really hated panamera for the looks, but i really like it for its features and engineering put into it
I feel like your Grand Seiko is a perfect compliment to the Porsche. They're both high-end hybrids, of a sort.
I'm just sitting here wondering how much time and money it costs to service the brakes; let alone the whole damn car.
I was wondering so I checked. The calipers and rotors play no role in regenerative braking. When you push the brake the electric motors switch to reverse and slow the car down while generating electricity. The reason the brakes feel more natural when you stop harder is because the conventional brakes are doing more work.
If we are talking about a hybrid, how is the mpg?
how much better MPG does this car get vs the normal turbo?
Hey Matt, I can't speak for any other province except Ontario, but here's the rules on passing:
Even on a solid line, you are allowed to pass (E.g. you can't receive a ticket), but obviously, if you cause an accident while passing on a "don't try to pass here" area, you'll be screwed. Line Markings don't construe laws in Ontario, but I am not 100% about the rest of the country.
great video as always. Could you start using a felt pad or similar non reflective mat to put on dash under the camera to get rid of reflections? Some cars are very hard to see out of through the reflection. Thank you
Hi Matt, visited ‘auto salon Singen’? It’s walhalla for car guys I think 😋
Ah gotta pick and choose you're roads in BC, some real gems out in some of the mountain passes but lots of the back-roads go to hell quick.
Anyone know what road this is? I'm visiting close by and I want to hit this road up!
Spencer Guo I believe this is the road that goes from port renfrew to cowichan so drive out to sooke keep driving to port renfrew and then take the road to cowichan.
If money was no issue would you prefer this Panamera or the Ferrari GTC4 Lusso instead?
Did they state unequivocally that there wouldn't be a Sport Turismo Turbo S E-Hybrid? I just assumed that was coming, there isn't really a reason I can think of why they wouldn't build it.
The only other time I've heard 10 pot calipers being mentioned was on the New Zealand based UKGIRL N14 Pulsar Auto Salon car from the mid-2000s
This is one of your best videos in my opinion, love the casual driving and talking. Lol stay in Canada!
I didn't get the reason for why he choose the long wheel base.. anyone ?
Your equation for limo+tesla+volt didn't include V8. V8 is a big part of the dollar.
Hey Matt, I am a huge fan of your videos. I love your the smoking tire from the bottom of heart. There is only one thing that I am missing. Could you please buy a geographical acceleration sensor. So you can get the exact number from 0-60 mph and from 60-???. QStarz Box is for example one of these things. Would be so cool if you cold upgrade these test cars with one of those. LOVE YOU MATT. KEEP UP the GOOD WORK =)
Hey guys, love your videos.
Just a short tip: Place a polarizing filter on the front-facing camera and you will remove most of the reflections of the speaker/dashboard :)
Hey Matt, are the Smoking tire snapbacks going back on sale? I regret not getting one 😭
Hope you enjoyed the Cowichan Valley and the Vancouver Island Motorsport Track. Unfortunately a select few negative nancy's in the area are trying to get the track shut down.
www.change.org/p/municipality-of-north-cowichan-keep-the-vancouver-island-motorsport-circuit-running
So what is the rule when there is no center line?
10 piston front calipers? I must have heard you incorrectly, twice...because that is ridiculous. I was so happy to move up to 6 pistons on my Camaro SS 1LE ... time for an upgrade!
Euro plates front/back in Canada... Wtf? Must have a "In transit" registration i'm guessing...
How do you compare this car to the RS7?
You can't get the Sport Turismo with the hybrid system in North America, no.
But you can get that combination it in Europe
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... yeah you can, just not in the executive model
www.porsche.com/usa/models/panamera/
in theory when you drive this car, could you just punch it at say 1500rpm and pull pretty hard? this thing seems like it would be a dream car for a Vegas trip. Probably could cruise at 120 all day.
Where is the location of this shoot?
apparently it can do it in 2.9-3.0 seconds, however the M5 does it in 2.8, but I do know that the 7 series is more of a competitor than the 5 series to this
I knew that road looked familiar, I live on Vancouver Island, and I have no idea how many times I've done the Renfrew Loop now, it's one of the only places on the island where you can get away with driving spiritedly on public roads.
Donato Tummillo
Visited V, BC twice in my youth and you live in an absolutely gorgeous part of NA. I’m a Texan that lived in San Diego for a decade, where you can motor to virtually any environment in a few hours, and I still am fascinated by BC. Traveled all of the US and think y’all have the most gorgeous bit of country up there. All the beauty of the Pacific NW without all the freaky-deakys. Plus, Canada. Bravo. Fun looking road to boot.
Hey Matt you obviously filmed this video today and did all the editing then uploaded it this morning so do you want to hang out with some fans in Victoria since you must still be on the island.
Only thing i don't like about this review is that after you bungle the launch (because you just had to do it in manual, go figure) you never redo it, which is a pity. Other than that, well done, as usual.
So how do you like Vancouver? Island?
MATT what part of Vancouver Island were you in? I live on the island.
Shamus Koughan He was up by the race track in Cowichan.
What kind of watch are you wearing mate?
is it better than the e63 amg wagon?
Still torn between this and the cayenne equivalent to replace my Cayenne turbo.
Excellent threading of information, analysis and style of delivery..... impressive.
Subscribed.
Water bottles in the back, Matt's an über driver?
Damm those mountains, absolutely gorgeous!
Great video!
That's a wicked glare coming off that dash.
So much tech and mechanical engineering, imagine how many computers this car has to make it work. You wouldn't want to have this car after a lease without service warranty.
you were in canada but the car has euro plates ?!
Matt it would be nice to edit parts of the car like the instrument cluster when you talk about it.
I think this way you can increase the quality of your videos.
*Absolutely* want to see you do a review of the Panamera Sport Turismo, if that's at all possible!
Wow i never thought matt would travel so close to where i live, i hope you liked Victoria!
Alex1130 Nice to see Matt getting the BC invite from Porsche. He could have come to the Okanagan to check out Area 27 as well.
Matt, you need to do the "Duffy Lake loop" if you ever find yourself in Vancouver with a good car and a day to kill. If you have a weekend, you need to visit the Kootenays via the Crowsnest Highway. Plus I think you'd fit right in with the fine folks of Nelson. :)
If you're in the Seattle area with a day to kill and no passport, make the run to Winthrop WA.
Oh, and the new Panamera is groovy, but there's better ways to spend a quarter-mil than a one-plus-sized fits none car. Unless you're a Gazprom "executive" or something.
Love these reviews, and I don't mind the notes whatsoever. Glad you care about getting your facts straight and the information out there.
Hope you enjoyed your trip to Van Isl. beautiful place.
That thing has a gorgeous interior
How did you like Victoria, Matt?
What is under the under-hood?
Did I hear the rev limiter?
If the hybrid battery actually charged up during a hot lap then either a) the car was in the wrong mode, or b) the car wasn't being pushed hard. Does anyone else see how that's not possible? For every braking zone on a racetrack there's an acceleration zone right after it, and the generators aren't doing all the braking- the brakes work too. Even so, it's not possible for the car to have gained battery energy if it was using its full power.
Sounds strange but for over 200,000 it should have some seriously efficient and effective generators.
It really depends. With a car that fast, how much time are you really going to have the pedal mashed to the floor?
Every second the engine is on w/pedal anywhere put mashed... the engine is also charging battery. Assuming motor is behind the trans, gearing will affect that a lot too. When you downshift in high revs, you're charging the ever living fuck out of the batteries.
It wouldn't surprise me at all that some tracks put more into battery than take out when the engine is pushing 550hp on its own. With a boat and no aero like that... how much can you really come hard out of every corner? I wouldn't be surprised if analysis showed you rarely even got into the electric hp on top of the engine.
Is actually possible... But for more battery power, you will be using a little more of gasoline in combination with the braking regeneration!
Hey welcome to Vancouver Island. I saw a few of those cars driving around Victoria, and they are gigantic. Way too big, but out on the open road probably pretty nice. No idea where that road is but you can definitely pass if there is no centre line.
Hell yeah brother! You're on the Cleetus mcfarland's youtu.....oops sorry, wrong channel!
interior review next? (Back seats mainly)
Hey I'm from Vancouver island! That's awesome! Isn't it beautiful there?
I hope this means Porsche is looking into N/A Hybrid 911s. It'll be so much more exciting and soulful to drive than the turbo Carreras that we have now
Great review, Matt. The hybrid Panamera Executive is my dream sedan...and a definite buy - if/when I win the lottery!
Matt try driving with GPS on new roads so you can see the road ahead of you.
Come down south to Bellingham Wa. Take my 87 4Runner on some trails!