Ancient Warcraft Lore - Paladins in World of Warcraft are WRONG
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
- World of Warcrafts Paladins are WRONG! Comparing the Silver Hand of Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 to the Crusaders and Marauders in World of Warcraft shows that there was an absolute disregard for any of the story or world building Paladins and the Silver Hand had in previous RTS titles.
Ancient Warcraft Lore is a TH-cam series where we discuss all things old Lore and Story in the Warcraft Universe. From the truly dilapidated corners of game manuals and obscure unit statistics to observable and documentable in game lore, this is all about bringing back the glory of ancient lore of Warcraft.
Ancient Lore is a followup to the long forgotten podcast Ancient of Lore from WoW Radio. Starting back in mid 2005, Ancient of Lore was the first lore and story discussion broadcast on the subject of World of Warcraft. We continue that legacy of critical thinking and analysis here.
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I enjoyed it quite alot. I do find WoW to be quite a bit illogical, from classes to even faction setup, as i went in more detail in my separate comment. I think things could be greatly improved if it was more open and reflective of post-Warcraft 3 world.
So explain ashbringer
@@SymbianBlack Yes, I'll happily explain something Blizz did wrong AFTER they made all the ridiculously bad choices that put them on the wrong path. Sure.
Ashbringer and Mograine happened *after* the point, not before, get your chronology correct before hopping in the comments.
@@TheDanNation A 3 word question set you off? I like spicy and emotional replies….. gets my d!ck hard when I get em. I’m just used to women giving them.
@@TheDanNation It could be reconciled, thing woth ashbringer and many other things in WoW that are at odds with the story at times is that they made "something cool" for sake of "cool". And that rule of cool is behind most bad things funnily enough.
Metzen was semi-ingored by devs working on WoW at times like that time thy said it themselves in the behind the scenes dvd i believe, where artists just wanted to do something extreme with forsaken/undead and Metzen had to keep coming around to explain things.
As far i know this happened constantly because story from wc3 wasnt known by the devs since it didnt release due to silmuntaneous development and delays with warcraft 3, plus well they were meant to work on wow, not play wc3.
I just think metzen gave up on correcting some things and chose to entertain devs enthusiasm even of it run quote starkly at odds with other things. Eventually he just done so himself, eg. bits of Wotlk and pretty much entiriety of Cata and MoP.
1.Alot of this comes down to what classes WoW decided to include and their interpretation.
Some are 'open ended' (eg. warriors, rogues, hunters) - anyone from a small-town bandit to an trained assassin can be considered a rogue.
Others have cultural context, but are still relatively open to intepretation (eg. mages, priests) - human, nelf and troll priests all draw power from different sources - but can be intepreted as 'any trained member of an organized religion = priest'
With Paladins, there is the approach of - "fighter with light-based powers and driven by a creed = paladin". Or you can use the more narrow history/cultural definition of "human holy-warrior from a specific order called the Silver Hand".
2.There is also how the RTS differs from the RPG.
In the RTS, every unit/hero is its own very specific class. In the RPG, you have a smaller class roster but each one can be built in a myriad of ways.
Personal opinion - I think RPG classes should be open ended when possible. The class system has to encompass all the various heroes/units of the world into a few vague but still definable boxes. Culturally specific groups like Wardens, Mountains Kings etc. would be thought of as sub-types/branches of the basic classes.
3. Paladins have a unique problem where depiction in the RTS are specifically humans with hammers and are largely support units. Contrasted with Druids; another very niche class in lore - we at least see several orders (Claws, Talons) as well as Archdruids, Nature beings (Dryads etc.) with a wide variety of power, weapons, armour etc.
4. Additionally, post RoC campaign; the North Kingdoms are a zombified wasteland. The offensive shift in Paladin's creed makes natural sense; the main threat to humanity is now the undead. Paladins with their holy power are now the vanguard against an unnatural foe that regular footmen can't just go in fight head on.
Theres also how the 'cultural shock' of the Northern Kingdom's destruction by a former Paladin could make surviving Paladins reasses their creed. As you mentioned, the Paladin creed was invented specifically in the 2nd war context. Post 3rd war; it could easily change again to face a new type of threat (ie. Undead Scourge).
While the game never explicitly states any of these - I think they are logical paths of where Paladin ideas could go post WC3.
Absolutely, there are "main" and "minor" classes to each race. But when taking only individuals into consideration, even a Tauren warlock could be theoretically possible, or other variations of different classes. A more grounded example would be an Orc rogue, even though the class acts against their culture by nature.
Some classes hardly even make sense for a race to have, like Kaldorei mages.
I just feel like the decision was made based on not wanting your player character to be tied down too much to a faction like the silver hand. So you aren't a "Silver Hand Paladin" you are an "Adventurer" learning to be a Paladin by imitating and helping out the Silver Hand. This would mean the tenants of the Silver Hand wouldn't really apply to anyone other than their original members. I think they wanted us going in filling in our own head cannon for our characters and not wanting to choke a class with too many restrictions. That's how i saw our player characters anyway, it's a bit of a difficult balancing act for sure tho.
I very much appreciate the thoughts on this. All I'll say is that becoming a Paladin isn't as simple as emulating or imitating. For example, Arthas was in training from an extremely young age, and received the best training possible to get where he was by the time he was a full grown adult. I get that after the destruction of so many members of the Order, flexibility was vital, but I highly doubt that level of flexibility or speed of learning in any regard.
Thank you again for the comment!
@@TheDanNation That's Arthas, and he's among the best of the Paladins. Most human heirs were trained the same way, Varian was, and so was Anduin. Being a paladin is just a martial priest, you don't necessarily have to be a part of the Silver Hand to be a Paladin. The term Paladin can't only be limited to Knights of the Silver Hand, people will call martial priest, Paladins regardless, if people try to gate keep them from using the term or not. If the Silver Hand was was virtually a defunct order, what's stopping a 'rogue' Paladin from training priests or warriors, besides the atmosphere could be them wanting enough forces to retake Lordaeron, and beggars can't be choosers.
@@jameschristophercirujano6650 Absolutely nothing is stopping that from happing, what I'm asking is for it to be shown, literally just asking Blizz to have shown it's work on this in ANY way. That's not a high bar.
@@TheDanNation Well, it's Blizzard, that's a high bar, lol. They don't really get that deep with the lore, we don't even know the fundamentals of casting, we have to fill in the blanks most of the time as how it works. Like the void gods, are they using mana, what even is mana? How the hell is Sargeras unable to teleport his ass to Azeroth but instead had to rely on the well of eternity. How the hell can Hamul open a portal after you kill Ragnaros in Sulfuron Spire. A lot of things we just have to accept, or contend with extreme feats of mental gymnastics to justify their lacking lore.
This is my thoughts on this one as well. Adventurer Paladins aren't a part of the Silver hand. Also, in vanilla you had to PAY to train spells and paying to learn something carries very different context, from joining an order to learn something.
It seems fair enough to me that the paladins would adapt to a changing world. They need to replenish their members, so they'd probably reduce the racial and theological stringency of their membership requirements. Arthas followed all their rules right up to the moment he started slaughtering his own people, and even made sure to use a hammer instead of a sword or a light spell to harm them, to keep things kosher. What good did that do? Once the paladins ended up at war with the heir to their own throne, and allied, even temporarily, with orcs, trolls, ogres, and tauren, I think they would have started questioning the practicality of only allowing humans into their club. Now, on the other hand, you could say that Arthas's betrayal proves the need for even more stringent requirements, since harming living things is what started him on the path of corruption and discarding his hammer for a sword is what sealed his fate, but I think the people advocating this view would have been mostly old guard paladins like Uther, who were mostly dead by the start of WoW, so I can imagine them being outvoted by younger or more practical-minded members. Still, it would have been really really cool to actually see some of these debates reflected in quests or gameplay, like for example if there were NPC's still holding to the original Silver Hand code in a few monasteries, or if you could read some of the new creeds produced by ecumenical councils of the light. Maybe even some fiery denunciations or excommunications. So basically I disagree with saying "Paladins in World of Warcraft are WRONG" but I agree that it would have been really great for Blizzard to at least address that point of view, it would have been an opportunity for some really fun world building. It's frustrating that they just put a huge contradiction into their game without explaining it.
Well first off thank you so much for watching through the video and considering my points, no matter what folks decide to think about this, I appreciate that you took the time to try and understand how I view this!
I would have been just fine with Blizzard making an epic storyline out of the struggle to reform the Silver Hand and getting new members and races involved, and needing to change and evolve, and I mention that later on in the video. Had they shown that, and expressed it through story, quests, and NPCs I would have been much more open to what we ended up getting. I feel very strongly that change should be shown, it should be talked about, it should be analyzed, and not getting to do that in this case still hurts a bit.
Thank you so much for the thoughtful comments, I hope you enjoyed the video!
I'm more concern how the light works in the Warcraft Universe, The Scarlet Crusade lead by Grand Crusader Saidan Dathrohan (Balnazzar) were using the light for nefarious deeds, also not to mention how Blood Knights were stealing the light powers from a Naaru, I guess now they get empowered by the Sunwell meaning they don't even need to believe in the light to use the light?
Btw I don't think Paladins are wrong but its another plothole and WoW lore has tons of plotholes, like Gnomes being part of the Council of Tirisfal meanwhile also Gnomes not having much interaction with the outside world and their society completely relying on tinkering and not any sort of magic or their physical prowess 🙄
@@xanderszunsol9963 I have a full episode on how the Light functions (in theory) and how it may be closer to a force of nature like gravity than something that relies on someone believing in something specific. In essence, it's more important to have conviction IN your beliefs than having specific beliefs. Check it out here: th-cam.com/video/KcNZcTKew8o/w-d-xo.html
@@TheDanNation"From Light comes Darkness, and from Darkness - Light!"... this is how modern Warcraft explains light and void but before WoW light could only be used by those who weren't corrupted by fel and using the light wasn't just about conviction but a secret knowledge and devotion to protect, like you said only humans should've been Paladins but I guess Dwarfs contributed with Hammer of Wrath when they joined the Order lol
It’s a good representation of real world religion. They forced their ideals and views onto everybody else but as soon as it no longer works for them, they throw them out the window and come up with some new bull.
I love how you analyze WoW through the lens of the RTS games! It seems most folk discuss WoW in a vacuum. Please keep the videos coming! 😁
Yeah, the RTS games had some really great storylines, I wish people paid more attention to them
I absolutely plan to, thank you for the support!
By the time WoW came out, the Silver Hand was disbaned in lore. As the war esculated, it makes sense that Paladins would change how they use the light, especially since the originators of the Paladin guild died off and other people came into the fold and taught new Paladins. Eventually, light will be used offensively, it's the way war works... your weapons always become better (or worse) as time moves on. Paladins in WoW don't have much to do with their original lore anyway, especially given how much some of the WoW class designers hated the class... the Paladin is a hollow shell of what it should have been in WoW.
A lot of people seem to to not realize that almost all of Warcraft universe "original" hero classes are borrowed from DnD (like in basically any rpg) Mage is a sorcerer in DnD, Hunter - Ranger, Rogue - Rogue, Warriror - Fighter/Barbarian hybrid, Warlock - Wizard: School of Necromancy and Paladins... And in DnD, a paladin is primarily a fighter, can use all kinds of weapons and armor and offensive spells. Blizzard adjusted the DnD classes to fit the Warcraft flavor, but the core concepts and lore pretty much remained.
I mean, almost all work is derivative in this day and age, and while I appreciate you bringing this up, isn't really relevant.
@@TheDanNation Well I think it's relevant in that that's one of the reasons why paladins were like they were, why they could use all weapons and not just hammers, why they could use offensive spells etc... They didn't invent the class to fit their own universe, they plopped it in and adjusted it very slightly.
The original WC2 concept was based on DnD but went towards warrior priest of Sigmar as it progressed in its lore. Which is why they look the way they did. But I think the weapon thing is more for gameplay purposes since it would require blizz to create far more hammer & mace than the other weapons.
Draenei paladins are an interesting case. Obviously, their conception in TBC was a complete reimagining of their previous storyline, but the addition of the Naaru in expanding the text of the Light is really what defines what the writers were going for. The strong jewish coding of the Draenei kind of imagines the human church and the draenei faith as two bodies with separate traditions worshiping the same higher power. This is much different from the case of the dwarves being inducted into the human church. With this in mind, there's no reason why Draenei paladins and Human paladins would have the same code or tradition framing their use of the Light.
Regarding game design, I do really enjoy the Paladin class fantasy - to me, the most important aspect of the class is the combination of support and durability. Being a tanky healer or a supportive tank are both really fun and flavorful roles to play. I find the idea of totally nixing holy damage aside from exorcism compelling, though ultimately I think they made the right decision in just leaning into what people would expect from a paladin class when coming in from other fantasy media.
Glad you enjoyed the video and you got some good thoughts out of it, thank you for your thoughts!
Holy shit, I never even MADE the connection between the Naaru and Judaism until now. THEY'RE LITERALLY JUST BIBLICALLY-ACCURATE ANGELS!!! All these years and I never even realized it x.x
The question then arises still, how were the Dranei so easily wiped out by the original Horde then? Human Paladins proved to be greatly efficient when it came to dealing with Orcs, but the same apparently wasn't the case for the Draenei. They made a long road out of their remains even.
In my opinion, this is a weird continuity error, as looking at their story from TBC, the original Horde should have had problems defeating them, let alone invading Azeroth afterwards. For such prominent Light users, blessed by and allied with the Naaru themselves, while also possessing the largest body type only second to Tauren, I can see no reason for why they almost got wiped out by the Orcs.
Have you read the Rise of the Horde novel? I haven't dug too deep into the warcraft novels or Christie Golden's books but it does a really good job painting a picture of what they had in mind for the relationship between the Horde, the Draenei, and Kil'Jaeden back in the TBC era. Hostilities between the orcs and the Draenei built up over time, and the Draenei were totally capable of defending themselves in minor skirmishes - however, by the end the Horde were unified, industrialized, and fighting alongside demons. Hunting down and killing the Draenei was Kil'jaeden's pet project, though, so once he believed they were dealt with the orcs were abandoned. The invasion of Azeroth was mostly done without help, aside from Medivh. The Draenei were indeed very strong and were prepared to defend themselves but they would never have chosen to fight the Burning Legion head on. @@user-ho5jt4hj5h
@@otomegrandma7472 I didn't read the novel, but the condensed info can already be found online.
I still think its kind of a weird explanation though. In the Warlords: Maraad cinematic, we see what kind of siege engines did the Orcs have, nothing more than medieval equipment. Meanwhile you have the Draenei, who had used magic in almost everything, even for daily life.
Their holy warriors were also potent, and in WoD, they even retconned guardian robots for them.
However, even just looking at TBC, I still believe that the Draenei they wrote into the story would have posed a significant challenge to the Orcs. We are talking about a civilisation on par with the Highborne, at least in my opinion.
And about the Orcish civilisation coming to Azeroth without help... well thats nonsense, then. One of the Legion's main objective was Azeroth at this point, so not giving the Orcs help to conquer it would be kind of nonsensical. Kil'Jaeden isn't stupid, he'd give them the support to settle a personal vendetta, but not to complete their most important task?
@TheDanNation Just to be clear, your problem is with paladins being able to use holy powers to harm living creatures or with the lack of explications from blizzard as to how they ended up using these powers more offensively thus leading to the creation of the retribution subclass?
So we know from all the way back in Warcraft 1 that priests could use the ability Holy Lance to attack enemy units. This was a pure Holy Light ability, and this continued with priests in Warcraft 3. Many clergymen and those in the priesthood have had the knowledge and skills to use the light to harm others since the dawn of Warcraft time. My issue is, Paladins, through both their RTS iterations, despite being considered the apex holy warriors for the Alliance, NEVER used the Light as a weapon against the anyone but the undead, it was never in any of their ability roster or stats.
Excellent episode. I agree with all of your points here just like the Tauren episode. I agree that at the very least the developers could have shown why the order chose to deviate from blunt weapons as well as using the light defensively/support only to offensively and against the living. A quest chain similar to DK starting quests would have been awesome.
Stumbled across your channel by accident. Was looking up wow paladin videos when I saw this had be uploaded 35 minutes earlier. Loved the video and looking forward to more content from you!
Thank you so much, make sure you check out the rest of my Ancient Lore vids!
I feel like the main issue is they wanted paladins, especially ret, to play different from warriors. The weapon choices for example, are still more limited than a warriors rather than hamstringing paladins but making them maces only, so that should be theoretically a fine concession.
As for how the "Marshall" or "martial" both work, trees should work, How exactly did you envision replacing command and sancticity aura? A mace strike that stacks up until you can execute the target with your mace? I think Blizzard may have thought its too similar to a warrior and making the paladin a spellblade would give it a totally unique identity and a proper foil to the shaman class.
As for the Light not harming living things, I think calling upon the Light to protect you and your allies can lead to the Light choosing to do that on its own and not necessarily something you do out of malice, hence the stuff in Protection.
overall IDK, Alpha paladin abilities unironically included Holy Strike and Crusader Strike, as a turtle wow player though I suspect you already knew that.
Absolutely on all of these points, and yeah as a Turtle player I do know of the changes they put in place. They did the best they could with the base level Paladins from Vanilla and I respect their work bigtime.
As for where I feel the Marshall or Martial or Judge tree would work, it'd be all about self buffing with things like momentum and other things to enhance your individual attacks. Instead of focusing on additional attacks or attacking faster like with Shaman or Warriors, it'd be about enhancing your slower, heavy, individual swings to hit harder or use combo attacks as damage multipliers. That's how I see it working best, at least.
The problem is blizzard trying to make Paladin too different from warriors. Which is a stupid thing, something that I think is stupidly follow by the turtle wow dev team too. Paladins are “Knights” at the core as much as they are Holy figures. Paladins should had gotten some warrior abilities; there should had been a combat tree for paladin instead of ret & arms for warriors should had been combat. There is nothing wrong with sharing abilities or spells. Certain spell class(attributes) & combat abilities should had been shared across different classes, based on what’s available to them. This would had helped with the development of the game since they wouldn’t had to program for similar abilities with different names as well as building a better foundation.
I totally understand your points and yeah I think it was mostly for gameplay reasons. So with your idea I think retribution should basically be a support warrior where they are up close auto attacking and buffing people up close. I can imagine how holy paladin was in legion as a similar idea of this up close healer support type and I can imagine how it can happen in vanilla but it is known that paladin was reworked close to release even to the point that the official guide uses spells that doesn't exist. But that isn't how it was done sadly. Retribution was just waiting with auto attacks and not really having things to do in solo which is why I think counter spells to be more active may help. And for dwarfs in the silver hand after the scourge I can imagine they would take anyone they could get really. Like there are oceans of undead, paladins are the most equipped to fight them, but there isn't enough paladins. So have friendly allies that are already known for being strong warriors and teach them some holy spells and now you have better chances of stopping the undead tsunami. I truly think what you wanted could have been what we had gotten in wow but I gotta feeling it was changed for gameplay. So many wanted to be a paladin especially after warcraft 3 so I think they absolutely needed it in the game (plus it fits contrasting the shaman) but it was clear they had conflicting ideas on how to add it and so we got something most didn't like. One last thing on the holy shield doing damage I see it a different way. I see it as splash damage thing. Picture you smacking a tub of water, some of it will blow back to the opposite direction, so I pictured it that your shield is extra protected by holy magic and being struck causes some to basically chip off and splash towards the enemy. And it is less about offense and more defense or accidental. Either as a quick push back essentially or just you accidentally caused a blunt thing to ricochet back and hit you. I am positive that isn't the intention but this is fantasy and it is fun to make modifications so the things work how you want. Classic DND mentality so you can use the tools to make your character.
Thank you so much for your thoughts, just two things out of here I wanted to respond to:
My thought is, with the Scourge destroying Lordaeron and the northlands by the day, even if there were Dwarves willing to step up and assist, which I'm honestly not sure if there were, there wouldn't have been the opportunity to even train them. I do feel that, eventually, Dwarves and others could have been inducted into the Silver Hand, but the biggest question I have would be when and how members would be comfortable with that.
In addition, I will quibble on the idea of a holy shield reflecting harmful levels of Light magic towards attackers. If you toss a metal trap out on a floor, and someone steps in it, it's still your fault for putting the trap out there. So even if someone has a blow blocked by a shield, and the shield blasts them with searing Light, it was still you that enchanted the shield to do that. I get what you're saying by it being defensive, but I feel the tenet against using the Light to harm living things was more strict than just acting defensively.
Thank you again for your fantastic comment, I greatly appreciate you watching the video and taking the time to share your thoughts!
Another great video 👍 Thanks for making great, old-school Warcraft lore content!
Thank you for watching!
Interesting video. But didn't most paladins belonging to the order of the silver hand die? Maybe, these new generation paladins are more loose with their tenets because they're not from Lordaeron, and many of them didn't get the chance to meet the founders of the order.
Absolutely legitimate theory, I was leaning into this towards the latter part of the video. I could 100% believe that because there we so few Paladins left to train a new generation, things started slipping through the cracks. I just want them to show their work on that, show it in world building and story in some ways.
Thank you for your thoughts, I'm loving some of these theories you all have put together!
Great video! Here's my thoughts after watching it: Regarding race/class combinantions that make little sense: shamans. Explanation tauren, orcs and trolls were cultures that developed indepently of each other for thousands of years, even if they were of the same archetype, troll witch doctors, orc shamans and tauren spirit walkers should be way more unique.
Sidenote: In regards to the Draenei retcon, I think it works better than other such gratuitous retcons (all of Shadowlands) because it doesn’t change much. The Eredar’s entire role in the story, before was just one line in the Warcraft 3 manual: the Nathrezim and the Eredar corrupted Sargeras. Post retcon it’s changed to: the Nathrezim corrupted Sargeras. The Draenei’s role in Warcraft 3 doesn’t really change, except for the fact that instead of what is showed seemingly being the totality of draenei culture and appearance, now it’s just the post-apolcayptic remnants of It and their appearance is due to eing the eqivalent of existing near a chemical spilage.
Compare this to Shadowlands’ retcons: where entire storylines and characters become downright incoherent or impossible to happen (the kyrian should have gotten involved during Warcraft 3, the Dreadlords being worried about the Lich king’ service to the Burning Legion, etc.)
Thank you for your thoughts!
It was most likely a gameplay limitation, the closest thing we've ever got to race-specific class abilities were the racials, but those were, for the most part, lesser abilities. But I would have loved to see some classes change according to races, or at least having the option to customise them. I understand the challenge of implementing such varying abilities, considering how broken some classes were in PvP, but their absence was an early sign of Blizzard's incapability to refresh and build upon WoW's experience.
I hate most of the future expansion, especially after Legion, but the new mount system implemented in Dragonflight was the first fresh mechanic in sooo many years to the game.
The gentleman revives 20 years old topics and discusssions. *bows*
I'm stuck living in the past, it's what I do lol. Thank you so much!
I really appreciate this series, thank you so much for covering these niche, and sometimes very esoteric topics.
I really hope that the Classic team takes a lot of these (related to vanilla) into consideration when creating new content Classic+ (if it becomes a reality)
As someone who has been playing since they were 7 (now 27), there's so many issues I have with the lore and world as well, coming from the perspective of someone obsessed with consistency in the worldbuilding I've done.
Much love
Thank you so much for your wonderful thoughts, I hope we do see more consistent, reasonable world building for a possible Classic+ experience!
First off great video, second Tirion wasn’t in hiding he was exiled for helping an orc and he lost his home for it. Now then if we look to real world comparisons their are few if any organizations that haven’t evolved and progressed with their ideas especially early on in the foundations. The Silver hand by the time of Warcraft three has been around maybe 15-20 years. So it makes sense that the old way of being a paladin and only using the light to heal and protecting others was useless against the scourge that’s why they had to adapt. Alexandros Mograine aka The Ashbringer was arguably the first retribution paladin as he used the light and his light infused sword as weapons against the undead. When your fighting orcs you don’t need to use the light but against something of death it makes sense. Also pretty sure even during the events of the first and second war paladins wielded blades. We know Turalyon did as he picks up Anduin Lothars broken sword at the battle of blackrock mountain. Same one he still wields today I believe. Also the order of the silver hand is dead and has been dead since the end of WC3 frozen throne. Tirion is arguably the last surviving member as of vanilla wow and he wasn’t even considered a member anymore as Uther stripped him of his ability to use the light (which doesn’t make sense). Most of the order wouldn’t have survived I mean even Tirion died in legion. Them old boomers couldn’t handle what was coming. Since the devs don’t wanna give any deep lore that doesn’t have to do with night elves or dragons we don’t have any official record for the interactions of humans with the other races of the eastern kingdoms except a tiny amount about the troll wars. But since neither I bore you have said information and context it’s all completely speculative at this point. It does stand to reason that if one can wield the light whether from the moon or sun or Tyr and one has the ability to swing a weapon and wear armor than you are a palidin. It’s like comparing Hodpitaler knights to templars, both are knights that serve the purpose of heavy armored infantry that have religious convictions, but one is about protecting pilgrims and the other is about rendering aid on the battlefield. You wouldn’t call all crusaders templars? This not all paladins have to be of the order of the silver hand or follow their teachings. All a paladin is in warcraft is a warrior who learned how to pray….essentially.
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We may not agree on something’s and that’s ok cause I still like your videos and I think you make great content.
Exile was what the Silver Hand did to Tirion, going into hiding was what he did to survive the Scourge. Very specific but important difference.
I appreciate the comment, and while I disagree with you on most of these points, I'm glad you took the time to respond here, thank you!
if i may can we get sources in your descriptions just so we can dive deeper in.@@TheDanNation
@@TheDanNationOf Blood and Honor has Tirion judged by a council where he not only loses his rank as a paladin, he is stripped of his title as leader of Hearthglen and is exiled.
The idea of him in hiding is WotLK lore.
@@Zhohan- What do you think he was doing hiding out in a cabin instead of fighting the Scourge then, exactly? Go ahead I'll wait.
@@BigSexyWizard He was hiding in a cabin in the middle of the woods instead of fighting the Scourge, what would you call that, exactly?
My headcanon is, that with the culling of Stratholme the main area of learning for paladins was lost and with it a lot of the core teachings that were laid down at the foundation of the order.
I can absolutely believe that, drastic change can many times be induced by extreme trauma or traumatic events. I just ask that they show their work, for lack of a better term.
Thank you so much for your comments and watching the video!
To be fair, saying they "got it wrong" when this is the same game that had Metzen openly admit during TBC's development that they simply forgot about several chunks of the Eredar & Draenei lore that they'd established in WC3... is a bit redundant lol. Blizzard's been retconning shit for decades.
AMEN LOL
I did a video a few weeks back on what it means for Metzen coming back and this was one of my major points.
As someone who always ends up back at playing a Paladin in Warcraft, I really enjoyed this discussion! Great job and thanks for taking the time to create this!
Thank you!
I like your video, nice work. What do you think about the fact that Ashbringer was crafted, then wielded by Alexandros before wow?
"Before WoW" Doesn't work here. The Ashbringer lore was written after Vanillas basis had been laid down. More than a few folks have brought this up but it's a moot point, Ashbringer happened after the sins of Vanilla's conversion of Paladins already happened.
@@TheDanNation Thanks for the information . I didn’t know when the lore was established. Awesome videos! I just subscribed. 💪😀👍
@@user-gv9fz4ex7z I totally understand the confusion, and apologies if I come off as a bit harsh with my thoughts on this. I know I'm on the extreme end of things but I feel I present a lot of good information.
Thank you for sticking around, I hope you enjoy the videos!
i do see your point but i also think you can rationalize most changes
"we showed restraint and compassion and yet the senior members of our order where wiped out TO A MAN by a single student who abandonned restraint for power, maybe we need less restraint rather then more"
I get that for sure, and I'm not opposed to change, but in that case massive change like that requires the world building and background to support and show it.
Something to mention, Not every class is 100% its class from Warcraft. Shamans are Shaman + Witch Doctor + Spiritwalker for example.
If you were to make Priest exactly like Warcrafts, you wouldnt be able to have a shadow spec in the first place unless you were undead, and vice versa, undead wouldnt be able to use the Light at all, it would just kill them.
Very curious as to how EXACTLY mechanically you'd make a Martial Paladin though if you would instead fulfill the niche of holy spellblade with a separate class like a Crusader or Inquisitor or something.
You're right here, for the most part, very very right. I wish Blizz had taken the time to build out a few additional classes.
As for how to build out Martial Paladins, beyond the ideas I've provided here, I've considered a few other video options for the future. If I get the time, I may put together something more fun and detailed.
I look forward to seeing it. If the idea is good enough, Ill implement it on my own realm, as I have done a client hack to allow multiple custom classes in the wotlk client now.
Id love to pick your brain, if you wish.@@TheDanNation
I have no idea what you're talking about or how it pertains to the paladin class.@@RiskyDramaUploads
this is true, I rather change classes to fit their fantasies better though than take on something super in depth like stealth threat and such.@@RiskyDramaUploads
I'm inclined to disagree with your point regarding Paladins using war hammers as their weapons of choice, more specifically the part about "the act of not bearing a blade against a foe". The war hammer is a weapon specifically designed to fight armoured opponents and in the Warcraft 2/3 Paladins' case, wielding a 2h war hammer requires a lot of martial prowess, testament to them being a fighting force against the orcish invaders. Ironically enough, if I were to fight a reanimated skeleton I'd rather use a hammer to break his bones than a sword.
Fair point. I disagree with your initial point but overall good thoughts.
The algorithm did its job right this time. As a paladin main active for around 10 years (~2008-2018) I questioned a lot of changes back then concerning races that can choose paladin et cetera, but somehow never was bothered by the older contradictions. The video also send my down 4h a rabbit hole of refreshing my knowledge of the first and second war and many characters involved in it, so thanks for that. :D
I'm glad you took the time to refresh your memory on some really important parts of the RTS games. The more we appreciate them, the better we can be reasonable and critical of the current world around us!
This was a really interesting video and my first thought early on, Blood Elves being allowed to be Paladins was incredibly nonsensical. Sylvanas did nothing wrong.. For The Horde..
圣骑士肉汁 !!
World of Warcraft Paladin Argument:
In Warcraft 1 Orcs and Humans the most elite unit for Humans was the knight.
Then in Warcraft 2 the paladin was an upgraded knight with holy powers, a holy knight. In regards to their lore the knights of Loerdaeron were lacking holy powers, and the clerics of Loerdaeron were lacking the great martial prowess of a medieval knight, the paladins were recruited from the ranks of both and trained in what they were lacking, all became holy knights at the end of it. Mounted, heavily armed and armoured knights with holy powers of the light - Holy Sight, Exorcism, and Lay on Hands. This was the epitome of the paladin as it has been portrayed in Warcraft over the years, it never got better than this, the paladin from Diablo wasn’t even as good as he lacked a warhorse and lance, which he should have had.
Then in Warcraft 3 Blizzard reimagined things again, and the chivalrous types of units for the alliance humans were divided into three units, the elite and mounted knight, the paladin hero unit, and the mounted crusader who was scrapped from the game during development. Blizzard made the paladin a special hero unit and planned for the knight to be separate with a special knight called the crusader as another separate and more special unit also.
Then in World of Warcraft Blizzard watered down these unit concepts and amalgamated some of the abilities and characteristics into a watered down paladin rpg class that was clearly designed to be light and ‘accessible’ to the mundane average man player base.
Look at the epic dialogue of the paladin in Warcraft 2 and 3:
“Defending your honour.”
“At your service my liege.”
“For the king.”
“Touch me not I am chaste!”
These are all heavy, chivalric, pious and holy characterisations that go way over the heads of the average mundane WoW player, to put it simply they cannot handle heavy concepts in a video game, and the meaning and gravitas goes way over the heads of the majority.
The crappiness of the WoW paladin and beyond was for financial reasons, and the mundane American hates monarchs and nobility, hates religion, and laughs at concepts such as chivalry and proper conduct. It is the land of Indiana Jones wannabes who shoot the other guy holding a sword from a distance with a gun and wear a smug self important look on their faces afterwards.
Personally I think the paladin in WoW should have been a mounted knight who is restricted to using a sword, lance and a hammer or mace, and whose holy powers healed allies and destroyed the undead, he would be a heavily armoured mounted tank/damage dealer with lesser healing abilities as well as commander abilities.
The term ‘paladin’ comes from the twelve peers of the emperor Charlemagne, from ‘The Matter of France’ a massive collection of epics, poems and songs, most of which haven’t been translated into English even, we only have ‘The Song of Roland’, and a few others. The twelve peers or paladins of Charlemagne formed the basis for what the medieval knight of France, England, and Europe would become in subsequent centuries. The Order of the Silver Hand was to an underlying degree clearly based on the chivalric orders of the High Middle Ages, the Knights Templar, Knights Hospitaler, The Teutonic Order, and the others.
The Jedi from Star Wars are influenced and based on eastern culture, religion and philosophy by the way, and only called ‘knights’ within the mythos to draw recognition from western audiences who only have a pop culture understanding of such things at best. Uther the Lightbringer’s line about forgoing vengeance was incredibly weak, incompetent, and nonsensical in such a situation where barbaric marauders were kidnapping the peasantry and sacrificing them to demons, the only sensible and also morally obligated recourse for this was that the orcs all had to die for being irredeemably evil.
If Charlemagne and his Carolingian Empire, or otherwise known as the Holy Roman Empire, had had such a soft touch on the pagans who also worshipped demons (research Karl Jung Paranormal Theories) then we wouldn’t even have a modern and advanced society today, Europe would have simply collapsed in anarchy and been overrun by foreigners.
Blizzard’s crap on the paladin archetype started with Warcraft 3 and only got worse from then on. It is a shame that they were simply unable or unwilling to deal with serious and important, as well as noble themes within the Warcraft franchise.
I genuinely hope this is satirical, because to suggest "For the King!" is too heady for most WoW players is a bit ridiculous. I don't think at any point during your superiority-complex-ridden post did you stop to think how basic the "concepts" you are talking about are. Chivalry, feudalism, etc. are all things taught to *children* in grade school and early high school. Please, get over yourself.
P.S. - No, western audiences are now and were then quite aware of terms like samurai, ninja, bushido, etc. The Jedi were *partially* influenced by eastern religion and philosophy, as far as the mystical side of the Force went. They were not copies of any and were not influenced by only them, but also by medieval knights of western culture as well. And, when it comes down to it, 'Jedi Knight' rolls off the tongue a lot better than 'Jedi Bushido' or 'Jedi Samurai' or 'Jedi Ronin'.
No, I was not writing a satire, there is nothing even remotely satirical in what I have written explaining the undercurrents of the issue and why it is such a human failure of cultural decency and a byproduct of modern degeneracy.
As I have already said the average American knows almost nothing about feudal Europe and then goes and watches some atheistic pornographic degenerate fantasy nonsense like Game of Thrones and thinks that must have been what it was like. America is a corrupt society with a foundational culture of seeing itself as superior to its European predecessors. And for the record I own more than thirty books about the Middle Ages from the time of Charlemagne through the era of the crusades and the High Middle Ages.
After American society industrialised they started worshipping consumerism by promoting the family above god instead of god above all, and started heretical protestant practises of using god to promote the father in a family as the highest authority within a community instead of the church. The bible states clearly it is best for both man and woman to be either chaste or celibate and wholly devoted to god’s purpose, but if you cannot overcome your base nature then you must be married, anything else is adultery and a sin. The holy official is above the married man or woman in a proper society. This correct version of the biblical scripture essentially would destroy consumerism and the corrupt hierarchy of American society from its foundation, and so Blizzard dared not actually give the public something real and actually holy. Morality as it is known comes from god and Christ’s church, even the corrupted degenerate atheist subjective morality taking over society today is derived originally from Christianity. You atheists love to pander to eastern religions and philosophies from a distorted lense that was originally derived from Christian morality, if you actually had to live in one of these pagan societies you so love you would be horrified, and likely enslaved, and possibly used as a human sacrifice. In fact your promotion of degeneracy is eventually going to lead to civilisation collapse.
The Warcraft 2 Paladin was objectively the best Paladin Blizzard ever put into a video game, and they even had crosses on their breastplates, and the icon for using their ‘Holy Vision’ power was the double headed eagle crest of The Holy Roman Empire, derived from Charlemagne’s heraldry itself.
Lastly, the Jedi have nothing in common with feudal knights and Europe. George Lucas is a self loathing liberal atheist who made the Europeans the bad guys and every other culture the good and ‘enlightened’ peoples. The Jedi ARE based on eastern religions and philosophies such a deism (duality, light side/dark side, good and evil creator deities), and Buddhism (the suppression of emotions and desires=what the Jedi never shut up about).
No, I was not writing a satire, there is nothing even remotely satirical in what I have written explaining the undercurrents of the issue and why it is such a human failure of cultural decency and a byproduct of modern degeneracy.
As I have already said the average American knows almost nothing about feudal Europe and then goes and watches some atheistic pornographic degenerate fantasy nonsense like Game of Thrones and thinks that must have been what it was like. America is a corrupt society with a foundational culture of seeing itself as superior to its European predecessors. And for the record I own more than thirty books about the Middle Ages from the time of Charlemagne through the era of the crusades and the High Middle Ages.
After American society industrialised they started worshipping consumerism by promoting the family above god instead of god above all, and started heretical protestant practises of using god to promote the father in a family as the highest authority within a community instead of the church. The bible states clearly it is best for both man and woman to be either chaste or celibate and wholly devoted to god’s purpose, but if you cannot overcome your base nature then you must be married, anything else is adultery and a sin. The holy official is above the married man or woman in a proper society. This correct version of the biblical scripture essentially would destroy consumerism and the corrupt hierarchy of American society from its foundation, and so Blizzard dared not actually give the public something real and actually holy. Morality as it is known comes from god and Christ’s church, even the corrupted degenerate atheist subjective morality taking over society today is derived originally from Christianity. You atheists love to pander to eastern religions and philosophies from a distorted lense that was originally derived from Christian morality, if you actually had to live in one of these pagan societies you so love you would be horrified, and likely enslaved, and possibly used as a human sacrifice. In fact your promotion of degeneracy is eventually going to lead to civilisation collapse.
The Warcraft 2 Paladin was objectively the best Paladin Blizzard ever put into a video game, and they even had crosses on their breastplates, and the icon for using their ‘Holy Vision’ power was the double headed eagle crest of The Holy Roman Empire, derived from Charlemagne’s heraldry itself.
Lastly, the Jedi have nothing in common with feudal knights and Europe. George Lucas is a self loathing liberal atheist who made the Europeans the bad guys and every other culture the good and ‘enlightened’ peoples. The Jedi ARE based on eastern religions and philosophies such a deism (duality, light side/dark side, good and evil creator deities), and Buddhism (the suppression of emotions and desires=what the Jedi never shut up about).
TH-cam is censoring my responses I see.
No, I was not writing a satire, there is nothing even remotely satirical in what I have written explaining the undercurrents of the issue and why it is such a human failure of cultural decency and a byproduct of modern degeneracy.
As I have already said the average American knows almost nothing about feudal Europe and then goes and watches some atheistic pornographic degenerate fantasy nonsense like Game of Thrones and thinks that must have been what it was like. America is a corrupt society with a foundational culture of seeing itself as superior to its European predecessors. And for the record I own more than thirty books about the Middle Ages from the time of Charlemagne through the era of the crusades and the High Middle Ages.
After American society industrialised they started worshipping consumerism by promoting the family above god instead of god above all, and started heretical protestant practises of using god to promote the father in a family as the highest authority within a community instead of the church. The bible states clearly it is best for both man and woman to be either chaste or celibate and wholly devoted to god’s purpose, but if you cannot overcome your base nature then you must be married, anything else is adultery and a sin. The holy official is above the married man or woman in a proper society. This correct version of the biblical scripture essentially would destroy consumerism and the corrupt hierarchy of American society from its foundation, and so Blizzard dared not actually give the public something real and actually holy. Morality as it is known comes from god and Christ’s church, even the corrupted degenerate atheist subjective morality taking over society today is derived originally from Christianity. You atheists love to pander to eastern religions and philosophies from a distorted lense that was originally derived from Christian morality, if you actually had to live in one of these pegan societies you so love you would be horrified, and likely enslaved, and possibly used as a human sacrifice. In fact your promotion of degeneracy is eventually going to lead to civilisation collapse.
The Warcraft 2 Paladin was objectively the best Paladin Blizzard ever put into a video game, and they even had crosses on their breastplates, and the icon for using their ‘Holy Vision’ power was the double headed eagle crest of The Holy Roman Empire, derived from Charlemagne’s heraldry itself.
Lastly, the Jedi have nothing in common with feudal knights and Europe. George Lucas is a self loathing liberal atheist who made the Europeans the bad guys and every other culture the good and ‘enlightened’ peoples. The Jedi ARE based on eastern religions and philosophies such a deism (duality, light side/dark side, good and evil creator deities), and Buddhism (the suppression of emotions and desires=what the Jedi never shut up about).
Humans are xenophobic but but rarely with Dwarves, my headcanon is because they are both Titan-forged they have a better relations than with the other races
Also as you said after WC3 their would had been smaller and had to look for other places to recruit, as the Dwarf were followers of the Holy Light and had a priesthood (They were great Allies of Lordaeron so adopiting their religion makes sense) it make sense the would recruit from their ranks
Also you should make a video about how the Vanilla Horde priest made no sense, the Trolls were suppose to be Witch Doctors and the Forsaken were Heretics but they play exactly the same and have the same weapons and armor as Human Priest
So here's what I'll say about Dwarves in particular, because your last point honestly has some very good merit to it and it's given me a few ideas.
Pre-Vanilla WoW, I would encourage anyone to present any evidence that Dwarves even recognized the Church of the Holy Light as something legitimate. Sure, they didn't say anything negative on it, their Human allies believed in it to an incredible extent, and found great power in that. However, we have no evidence that they even had any majority faith in it as well.
The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence, I know and I very much agree, but in this situation, to show that there was legitimacy in allowing Dwarves to be Paladins, I need something, anything to show that they had a serious faith in the Light, and before 2004 I cannot find any.
Thank you for your comments on this!
@@TheDanNation I’ll try to take the challenge but it would be using Vanilla WoW lore, besides the political answer I gave before, in Vanilla the Dwarves became obsess with finding their origins and their creators, while other turn to exploration and archeology some would turn to religion to find the answers and they found it in the Light where all live comes from and thus the creator of all, and so some could decide to defend the Light as is their creator
This is, of course, a big leap in logic but I’m using the search for their origins, that was the mayor plot point in the Dwarven storyline, as the justification for the priests and paladins
@@Yannis1a To add upon this, while insular, the dwarves have been in contact with, and allies of, humanity for thousands of years. Trade and interaction have existed. With the faith of the holy light having existed among humans for those thousands of years, and the Alliance of Lordaeron bringing even closer relations. During Warcraft 3, the dwarves readily and in ample number send support to all the human endeavors, be they taking place in Lordaeron or Kalimdor. It is clear, that the relations between the two are fairly close when speaking in generalities. And when it comes to trading and interacting with another culture in a friendly manner, over the course of thousands of years, ideas tend to travel.
@@Yannis1a I would say this isn't a big leap in logic, trying to understand where you came from as a people, and looking to religion as a part of that, is a solid idea. This is a decently thought out concept.
My problem is, this is *NEVER* shown, either in the RTS or in Vanilla. If they had just shown that, alongside their archeological desires, they had this surging of religious study and understanding, I would have 9 problems with Dwarf Paladins/Priests.
Thank you for your thoughts!
@@TheDanNation I don't know..... I can see some of the in game books (that you find on tables and ledges in vanilla) that talk about the Titans and titan beliefs where they acknowledge the Light being involved in the creation of the universe (they don't claim that arcane created the universe) as well as their descriptions of Aggramar and pre-fall Sargeras wielding the Light as they went around the universe fighting against demons. If the Dwarves are so intent upon admitting they are Titan constructs and that the titans shaped them and wanted them to avoid darkness.... then it would just "have" to be consistent and congruent in Dwarves investigating the Light even before vanilla. By all means, they don't need to have any automatic loyalty to a Human church, but if the principles being pursued there seem to match the Light which dwarves think their titan shapers agreed with.....then I could see themselves being okay to join it.
I definitely understand much of the sentiment of the argument you’re making, and Blizzard definitely could have/should have given more explanation into how the shift happened, but I also feel like some context clues in game also direct us towards how these shifts in ideology happened
For the point about Dwarves being inducted, I can in my mind attribute that to the bond formed over the course of the second and third wars, with a respect forming between the races as they fought side by side and recognized each others strengths. Especially after the introduction of paladins and their demonstrated prowess against forces the average warrior was simply unequipped to stand against, I wouldn’t be surprised if some Dwarves began believing in/preaching for the Light and spreading the belief amongst their people, and that at some point some young pious dwarves traveled to SW (maybe even on the tram that connected it to IF) and proved their devotion to the point of being inducted under the SW branch of the silver hand
That feeds into my next point, how the SW branch of the church is probably fairly separate from the church in Lordaeron. While they had a close relationship, especially with the Second War and the rebuilding of SW, the distance probably mandated some level of independence from their northern counterparts. This, combined with the devastation of the 3rd war and tales of how even the mighty paladins could not stand against all the dangers that faced humanity and the Alliance, would naturally lead to the new generation of paladins being trained from the common people (or at least not already famous warriors) of SW training to lean more heavily into offensive tactics, including the use of the holy light as a weapon. Perhaps this could even be some scarlet crusade influence, as we see from certain quests in classic that they do try to recruit from the humans of storm wind, and we know they are perfectly capable and willing to bend and break any and all moral boundaries to achieve their ultimate goal of eliminating all impurity from the world.
Ultimately, I feel like a lot of what I said might just be cope for blizzard following the rule of cool over keeping consistent with an earlier theming system they made for a much simpler game, but idk it makes sense to me at least. A lot of stuff in classic just kind of existed to be cool, and I feel like blizzard decided the fantasy of being that crusader who protects their allies with healing and divine inspiration and smites evil, be it living or dead, with the holy judgement was much more fun to design and play as than having the holy stuff be purely healing and their martial skills be their only means of offense.
Either way, cool video and an interesting viewpoint to mentally chew on. Always glad to see your content pop up in my notifications
This is absolutely legitimate and VERY well thought out, thank you for your thoughts.
I could believe this theory easily, again my issue is it's never shown in game, even in the slightest. I'm fine with the rule of cool having input even, which many people may find odd, but as long as it's supported with the proper world building, GO FOR IT!
You all have submitted so many great thoughts and ways to tie this all together, and I really wish Blizzard had made the same effort, thank you so much!
@@TheDanNation As the original commenter alluded to..... vanilla wow "did" have context clues given as to what ideology paladins "should" be doing, in the form of the paladin only class questlines at various stages during the leveling process. Many of them talk about how the paladin should be championing compassion....and that the sort of revenge or wrath and retribution type stuff is a mistake. But the player character can do the wrong thing; and the light will respond..... just as the scarlet crusade can do the wrong thing, and the light will respond. This was also supposed to be demonstrating that for warcraft, "the Light" is not a god, it is not a voice, it is not a mind floating in a cloud or a burning bush somewhere.....it is just a force. It is a force that responds to faith, including faith by ethically bad people like scarlet crusaders.
And while the original commenter did not say the following, this will be me saying the following. Some of the classes in vanilla WoW had specific story reasons for existing, and story through-lines for how they should probably be acting in the world and toward the world and toward other people. Yet....... many, many, many players were mentally ignoring and violating those story reasons just to fulfill a role playing they preferred in their minds. For example, forsaken rogues, warlocks of both factions, shamans, druids, even priests. The storyline for why forsaken rogues would exist was very much not what a shocking number of players wanted....... which was for them to get a chance to pretend they are evil, and kill everyone everywhere for no reasons. The storyline for why warlocks would exist among the alliance and horde was very much not what a shocking number of players wanted.....which was, again, to pretend they are evil and kill everyone and do evil things and gain more power to be more cruel to everyone they meet. Likewise, many priests ignored the lore of the light, and ignored the lore of the cult of the forgotten shadow......instead they just wanted to be evil and do evil and be as dark and death-like as they could. Shamans, also had a storyline explaining how they should be, and how they should act in the world.... all about honoring spirits, and "asking" elements to answer their respectful requests..... but a shocking amount of players being shamans just wanted to kill kill kill destroy environments and never respect elements and never "ask" for their spells to work. Similarly, while there were elaborate storylines for what a druid in warcraft was supposed to be, and what their goals should be, and how they should act toward the world and nature...... nonetheless a shocking amount of them being played by players would rather just kill kill kill burn down every forest and exterminate all animals and conquer conquer conquer. I am not condoning any of the above behavior...... but it seems like the developers of vanilla wow were trying to leave room for role playing to differ from their intentions for the lore.
@@laertesindeed Nice novel, I disagree with your premise.
If a Classic - (a version of WoW without any of the mmo compromises, true to its rts roots) ever came, i would like that version of paladins :)
I would love to see a more direct and honest RPG interpretation of the Warcraft universe.
Great video, btw!
You called yourself extreme in this video. I think I must be too, not only because I agree with the sentiment that Paladins were implemented wrong in World of Warcraft but also because I feel like WoW's take on the lore is a bastardisation of what was established in Reign of Chaos and The Frozen Throne.
Forsaken in the Horde?
Night Elves in the Alliance?
Space ships in TBC?
Blood Elves joining the Horde?
Just no to all that, and it only gets worse the more expansions you include.
As for the Order of the Silver Hand. I am not sure that Stormwind ever had Paladins. Let's assume that they did: Given the distance between Stormwind and the northern kingdoms, their Paladin order might've been a different one, one that's okay with using the light to harm living beings. Given that we play as Stormwind humans, it is conceivable that we're playing as a different order of Paladins.
However... I have played enough of Warcraft 3's campaign to remember Uther's teachings. "We're Paladins Arthas, vengeance cannot be part of what we do." Okay, I may have gotten the quote slightly wrong but I'm sure I got the sentiment right. Having a Retribution tree based on dealing holy damage to living beings just seems wrong.
I would love a lore reset headed by Chris Metzen. A lore reset that's respectful of where Warcraft's setting came from and what popularized the franchise in the first place.
I'm excited to see if we get something similar to a lore reset for Classic+, but we'll see about that. Strong agree on every expansion just adding to the problems as well bigtime.
As for Paladins in Stormwind, I'm confident that at least a few members of the Silver Hand were in the southern part of the Eastern Kingdoms during the Scourging of Lordaeron. The army of the Alliance of Lordaeron had to free the entire region from Horde control, and that took time. I think the big question is how many stuck around on Stormwind and Nethergarde and how Jr. or Sr. they were in the Order, that's just my thoughts though.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment!
I really enjoyed this. I would love to see deep dives like this for the other classes. Like how DK lore wise should only really be blood elves.
Thank you so much!
@baronvonboomboom4349 I can't tell if you are just being sarcastic and doing a meme...... in which case I should let the blood elf comment go; or if you were making an actual claim, which I think needs to be set right.
There were no such things as "blood elves" until after the scourge had already finished their deeds at Quel'thalas and left. The elves at quel'thalas were high elves, not blood elves......until after the magical withdrawl from the lack of a sunwell began to kick in; and Kael'thas made a political decision to label the survivors as blood elves. The player character blood elf in the death knight starting zone of Wrath of the Lich King is a blood elf that entered the eastern plaguelands some time after the launch of burning crusade and before the beginning of Wrath prepatch....then died in some way and was made a death knight by the Lich King. All of the elves that died during the scourge march toward the sunwell in the RTS were high elves, and none of them were made into death knights. Some were made into banshees, some were made into dark ranger undead style archers, some were made into ghouls, some were just chunks of flesh for the meat wagons. But none of those were death knights.
The racial composition of the death knights in the DK starting zone for Wrath of the Lich King were supposed to be any race of player who could have been active in the outdoor region of Eastern Plaguelands during vanilla WoW (so all vanilla races) plus Draenei and Blood Elf that would have to be assumed for story purposes had entered Eastern Plaguelands some time after the launch of burning crusade and before wrath prepatch......as the writing confirms that the Lich King was active (but mostly hidden) at least as far back as the vanilla version of Naxxramas.....then that Draenei or Blood Elf character died in some fashion and got raised up as a Death Knight like the other DKs in the DK starting zone.
Then, for gamey-wamey reasons that don't make any story sense whatsoever....... the devs let Goblins and Worgen be death knights later on in cataclysm. None of the worgen created by Arugal in vanilla were Gilnean citizens...and none of them got to eastern plaguelands...so no, none of them can be ways of making a Gilnean worgen death knight at all. And any goblins that existed as npcs in the vanilla world to qualify as targets of death and resurrection by scourge cannot possibly be Bilgewater Cartel goblins back on Kezan.....so once again they don't have any possible cultural connections and don't make any sense at all. Therefore, to repeat, gamey-wamey reasons are the only thing that make goblin/worgen dks.
While I have great and deep objections to the terrible writing of bfa/shadowlands......I don't have any lore problems with the specific scenario added in a minor patch that has a new alternate starting zone for death knights where Bolvar as the Lich King is the one raising and empowering new DKs of all sorts of races, even allied races. Though it cannot currently contain any dracthyr as their origin is elsewhere.
@@laertesindeed I was going to ignore the OPs Blood Elf remark tbh, I can only comment/correct so much.
I get what you are saying and agree with a lot of it from the perspective of how it was presented to what a paladin was supposed to be. However, with the direction the game is going where the light isn't necessarily all good, I think in hindsight it now fits well into the lore.
So, I do get where you're going with this. HOWEVER, if you go back to my video on the Light and how it functions, even back during Vanilla it's my opinion that the Light was never a force of Good. I'd encourage you to review that video if you have time, as I think it helps people realize more of the initial idea of what the Light is going into the initial vision of World of Warcraft.
As of writing this comment I'm about 2/3rds of the way through the video, and I point I would like to make, is that the Paladins you play in World of Warcraft are from Stormwind, you might head cannon that your character is from Gilneas or Stromgarde, but you play a Human of Stormwind as far as the Game is concerned. The Order of the Silver Hand was a Paladin group founded in Lordaeron after a tragedy in another Kingdom, if the imparted any of their teachings to people from Stormwind, it makes sense to me that, as a people that had lost more than the people of Lordaeron could imagine, the Paladins that would pop up in Stormwind, in Northshire the place of the previously mentioned tragedy, would take a more martial approach to paladins, more keen and able to use the light to defend themselves from living beings.
The teachings needed to come from somewhere, and the Silver Hand had Paladins in Stormwind and Nethergarde at the very least. So while it's feasible that the tenants of the Silver Hand may have morphed drastically between Warcraft 3 and WoW like that, just like with everyone else suggesting this, Blizzard REALLY needed to show their work on this, like literally anything, which they didn't.
dude just reiterated with extra steppes that we need more tanks and healers
You know, I didn't do it on purpose but holy crap you're not off the mark.
I think you could make a good argument that the Paladins from WoW have good reason to be different from earlier versions. The Silver Hand kind of failed. They didn't protect Stormwind or Lordaeron and most of their order, and their leader, was killed by one of their own. Those that remained would perhaps feel the need to be more pragmatic rather than idealistic given those past failures, and on top of that many probably bear some grudges that make them lean towards aggression/retribution more. You can see this in the extreme in The Scarlet Crusade. On top of that there could have been a big culture shift given just how much of the order would be new recruits with their own values and reasons for joining.
You might argue that the different specializations reflect this. Holy Paladins might still value the old ways, whereas Retribution Paladins have become more hardened and militaristic. It then becomes up to the player to decide what kind of Paladin they want to be.
As for Draenei I think it's just a game limitation that they were originally called Paladins. Many NPCs go by Vindicator instead, just as Blood Elves went by Blood Knight in the lore and Paladin in game. Later on towards Legion you can see these disparate groups joining together in the order hall.
For the majority of your first comments, totally fair, sure. I'm fine with things changing, I just ask that Blizz show their work in lore and world building and SHOW the change. Give us the road bumps, give us the details, give us literally anything because they showed us none of that.
For Draenei, Blood Elves, and Dwarves, I will 100% say they should not be Paladins, and Draenei in general should never have happened the way they did. Period.
Any thoughts about undead paladins? I've always thought that they made more sense then draenei, dwarfs and blood elfs if it's just a human paladin who has died. Also, Sir Zeliek exists. Maybe they're technically possible in lore, but so exceptional that allowing them in gameplay would diminish immersion or something.
So I'm honestly more okay with undead Paladins more than Draenei, Dwarf, or Blood Elf (although again Blood Elves make very aggressive distinctions as Blood Knights, which eases my thoughts on them). I will also point out that Sir Zeliek feels like a very extreme singular exception to how antithetical the Undead and the Light to each other. All that out of the way, a few notes:
Undead paladins would be actively harming themselves almost every time they invoked the Light, just as undead Priests do. I actually like this, as a moderate amount of masochism feels appropriate for Undead Paladins.
While very much undead, the chance that Undead Paladins have the faith to uphold their former lives and convictions is somewhat decent. I feel an argument could be made for them more than most because of this, and the struggle to continue to uphold those tenets despite being Undead would create some incredible story lines.
The only issue I have is that Paladins abilities to turn Undead and their anti undead abilities, there's some serious implications for an Undead Paladin to use them, and we would need to come up with some workarounds.
Thank you so much for the question, I hope you enjoyed the video!
@@TheDanNationI thought Undead were gonna be announced as paladins and Night Elves as shaman before TBC was announced.
It made perfect sense. Undead priests can wield the light to heal and help others.
Then they announced TBC with Draenei and Blood Elves. Sigh.
@@Lordturisas1 I would very much disagree with Night Elf Shamans, they don't have any history of shamanistic practices, just Druidic. As for Undead Paladins, I've heard many good arguments for them, and very much respect those arguments!
The Scarlet Crusade Marched On! 😂 gg I play a shockadin and I wondered that as well, I think the issue is, is that paladins got reworked right before (like within a month maybe even a week) the game launched. Paladins we’re lack luster, they had no damage and so they most likely clinged to the light to utilize that against the coming darkness of undeath. Learning how to wield the light aggressively. Keep in mind who was the head of the Monestary at the time and it’s easy to assume what happened.
Really great stuff, as much as it spits in my class fantasy face, I can’t deny the truth. Luckily they left enough loop holes to find my way out and see where it could have taken place.
Valeria, Scarlet Crusade, Living Flame
Thank you for the kind thoughts!
love listening to you talk about warcraft lore
Thank you so much, I hope you enjoyed the video!
Im just mad or off put about the light being an alien ability taught. Now the light is a zealot fanatic group.
Shouldn't every race that worships the Light or can be priests also have holy warriors? The veil between a priest and paladin is thin even when it comes to humans. And by this logic, every ranged magic user class could have a melee variant, like a void or mage knight. Maybe they wouldn't be backed up by anything regarding culture, but their existence should still be absolutely possible.
Its only in WoW where you are restricted to a staff when picking mage, nothing else in the lore says can't go melee. I believe it would work against the class fantasy this world has, but the fact that theres nothing preventing it makes it possible.
You're absolutely right, there's nothing wrong with anyone from any race having holy warriors. Paladins aren't just any holy warriors, they're a specific group of defenders of Humanity that were in action during the second Orcish War and the Scourging of Lordaeron and the invasion of the Burning Legion during Warcraft 3.
I would have zero issues if they hadn't called the class Paladins, showing that the concept had evolved and spread from the Silver Hand and it's destruction at the hands of the Scourge.
I could be wrong but from my belief paladins we’re strictly noble knights during wc2 and parts of wc3 until the scourge events came about which is where we saw paladins becoming more zealous and crusader like which is when alexandros forged ashbringer a sword
Legit question on this, and I'm glad you asked because a few folks in the comments have referenced similar timeline questions. The concept that the Ashbringer and the Crusader style of being a Paladin didn't exist until after World of Warcraft released in 2004. What I would want to see, if Blizz really did want to go down the road of showing the changes in the Order of the Silver Hand, is to give us a breadcrumb trail, or a few stories or quests to actually show this happening, not just *BOOM* CHANGED! If that makes sense.
thank you for the comment!
Good points. I mean, clearly they detracted from original lore for decades now.
Not wrong at all.
There is a paladin in day of the dragon which came out in 2001 which is 3 years before wow and Warcraft 3, his name is Duncan senturus, his interactions with veressa Windrunner and rohain the red seem to show that he and the silver hand do not like mages and others who use magic due to its connection to demons. His men who were also members of the silver hand and described as paladins wielded lances. Duncan also threats to cut off the hands of rohain the red should he try to cast a spell showing Duncan even as a paladin is not a stranger to violence and even willing to show it, he also shows some zealotry but towards arcane users not races. So use this information as you wish. Of course this book has been mostly retconned.
Appreciate the thoughts on this. All I'll say is Knaak couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag, Rhonin is the worst Gary Stu and set a horrible precedent that Thrall ended up falling into in later expansions, and I recognize not a single word Knaak wrote as canon.
Apologies if this sounds like I'm dumping on you, I promise I'm not, I just REALLY hate Knaak. In a future episode, I'll be going through my thoughts on Rhonin in excruciating detail, look forward to it!
Speaking of Draenei Paladins which even make less sense about them.
During the Horde's rise, the Draenei hade alot of holy warriors and their version of "Paladin", they were also supposed to be
very skilled and have a strong belief in the light. So ofcourse their "Paladins" would be extremly powerful against most anything.
But the Draenei almost got obliterated by the Horde. Fast forward to Second War, Humans have made their own set of holy warriors,
the Paladins, which was extremly cruicial for the Alliance as whole.
So conclusion, the Draenei supposed to be at the peak and belief with their Holy light, got rekt by the Horde, while Humans that
manage to come up with "Lets make a triumph card of our own", owns the battlefield with em. It's so silly xP
(I also don't like that so many of the Alliance races have access to Shamans, it .. doesn't feel right, long time orc/troll shaman main)
Love your videos! Keep em up!
Appreciate the thoughts, thank you so much!
While i agree with how some points are presented, i use my headcannon to explain why other races can be paladins in certain ways, example blood knights, or draenei paladins. dwarves i can see them being paladins since the order got pretty much wiped, and they d need the extra manpower, and if the dwarves, who allready follow the light, thanks to human conversion attempts, want to swing a hammer in their namesake, i should guess they would be allowed. Now to the point of not using the light to harm, i see it more of "dont use the light OFFENCIVELY" but do "use the light to defend those in need, become the light's representative, and defend the innocent"
I mean, fair headcanon, I disagree with it vehemently but it's your headcanon, and I'll defend your right to do what you like with it considering how well aware you are of it and yourself.
Me leveling a paladin while listening to this in the background: Hmm Interesting! XD Keep up the good work man
Thanks, will do!
I *never* really liked paladins in WoW, mostly because it seemed to me like they had some of the worst core identity issues of any class. They never really had their clear kind of "own thing" going on, and were really just treated as the generic "warrior-priest hybrid" class, unique specifically to the Alliance. And also, their mentality often times was just... utterly schizophrenic. Like, just look at Uther the Lightbringer in Warcraft 3. These are both quotes of his:
>"Remember, Arthas: We are paladins. *Vengeance* cannot be a part of what we do. If we allow our passion to turn into bloodlust, we will become as vile as the orcs."
>"Strike with GREAT VENGEANCE!"
... Do you see what I mean?
I do see what you did there, and you're not wrong at all lol
First time listener. This is basically a lore podcast and it's what we've been looking for.
Much appreciated, glad you enjoyed it!
another great vid brother
Thank you, appreciate you taking the time to watch it!
Wasn’t the Order of the Silverhand dissolved after the fall of Lordaeron and split into either the Scarlet Crusade or the Argent Dawn? Where the Scarlet Crusade remained the more xenophobic and traditional paladins you described where as the Argent Dawn changed, adapted and let other races join and become Paladins?
During legion we reforged the order of the silver hand but during bfa I’m pretty sure the horde members were removed and turalyon is now currently leading the silver hand and the alliance army
You're skipping a lot of steps here, I'll be honest. There was this strange grey area between the sacking of Stratholme and the Scourge invasion, as well as considering the Paladins that fell to the influence of the Lich King.
The Argent Dawn wasn’t founded until significantly after the Scarlet Crusade. The Scarlet Crusade lasted for some time as a powerful order in its own right, and actually reclaimed territory in Lordaeron and massively culled the Scourge. The Argent Dawn was created by Scarlet Crusaders who left because although they didn’t know why Saidan Dathrohan was doing evil, they acknowledged he was now unjust and the Crusade was betraying itself. So the Argent Dawn is a group of Scarlet Crusaders whose consciences kept them true to the original ideals of the Silver Hand. The Argent Crusade was then made by Tirion to unite the Argent Dawn with the remainder of the Silver Hand (those who never became Scarlet Crusaders for whatever reason, or left the Crusade and reunited with other members of the Silver Hand rather than joining the Argent Dawn).
From the look of things, I think the paladin was taken from D&G whereby you have the class kits,
Paladin - Holy( A warrior that exemplars everything good and true righteousness, justice, honesty, piety)
Cavalier - Protection (the knight, chivalrous warrior who epitomizes honor courage, and loyalty.)
Inquisitor - Retribution (dedicated their life to finding and eliminating practitioners of evil magic and defeating the forces of darkness)
i do believe that Blizzard wanted to put a twist on things so it doesn't look more like D&G class. I never play my paladin with a sword or those other weapon choices, it always had to be a mace. there is something about a mace that just makes the class feel right.
speak about other races that can be paladin, well I don't see them as paladin. you are right about the paladin of the sliver hand being a human thing and it is supposed to be like that. People do not like restriction when it comes to games where they feel like the race should have such a class. this is why I do not like the current state of the game.
I love Paladin class, but don't like playing any human race in any fantasy setting. but since I love the class, play the race. Just like the way I love my druid class but now almost every race can be druid all of a sudden. what am trying to say is they did all that for gameplay and not the lore.
Overall, very much agree with you, thank you for your thoughts on this!
been a paladin for 17y and i feel you, maybe it is time to make retri pally into a support spec like augmentation evoker?
I've had a few people suggest that, and I don't know Augmentation Evoker enough to have an opinion on it sadly. Thank you for your thoughts!
Wow, my brother.... what a video. 10/10.
The hammer is the symbolic weapon of the Paladin because of the judge’s gavel.
I love this hyper-analytical approach. Crusader V Paladin.
Thank you so much, I feel incredibly strongly about this and hope people understand my point of view. Appreciate the comment!
I feel the same way. For a world to be amazing, the lore must be watertight.
These inconsistencies do the world-building a disservice.
For me the most glaring issue is the Scarlet Crusade. I loathe the fact that its just black and white. "mUh deY eViL cOs rAciSm"...
As you said, had they explained through a quest chain that the paladins had to adapt and become 'crusaders' because it was the only way to liberate Lordaeron, it would have been perfect... but no - no explanation.
I would really love to hear a deeper dive on how you would solver this issue. You never know who's ears it might reach....
A@@TheDanNation
I believe there was also a gameplay reason for Paladins not being able to use harmful light magic, as that would complicate things in a strategy game. Though these restrictions and rules in gameplay can always be applied to the world in some extent as far as it makes sense.
Here we can see WoW throw away some major rules about the world for probably more engaging and interesting gameplay, maybe because it would have made it difficult to implement it at the time. The largest problem however is that neither the players nor developers actually care about this, probably also major reason for why it was ignored when the game launched. I don't believe there is a single reason for why the Paladins were implemented this way :D
It has since become a very important part of Paladin identity through the Ashbringer and the Retribution spec, and while its still an inconsistency with the original story, there just couldn't be a way to remove it now, or any change for that matter :DD
The only option I see is to make a new "sub class" within the Paladin one called Crusader, which could be past Paladins who lost their peaceful perspective, but this would make them neither a Paladin or part of the Silver Hand, they could replace the retribution class. (you brought up something similar later in the video)
Some players should leave the mentality where criticising the developers is no option. True, professionals probably understand what they are doing, but as we can see (especially) in the current times, mistakes are more and more common. Criticism shouldn't be rejected, rather thought upon to see if there is any validity to it, and then learn from said mistake. How can someone improve if they only see what they want to?
Appreciate the thoughts!
I disagree with the idea that harmful light magic being something that was restricted for gameplay or balance reasons. In Warcraft 2, Exorcism obliterated groups of summoned undead, and in Warcraft 3, Holy Light was a powerful way to attack enemy undead, chunking even the extra thicc abomination units.
Fair thoughts on possible different specs, and even more so on most people simply not caring about being this granular about lore and world building. I wish I could disagree with that second part in particular, I feel developers and players both SHOULD demand the highest quality of world building, but here we are.
Also, for criticizing developers, I do agree we should be willing to share fair, honest, and directly critical thoughts of game development works, and I hope one day we can return to that. Unfortunately, many people have ruined that by personally attacking the developers themselves, or targeting products in ways that are defamatory or unreasonable. I'm with you that fair and honest criticism and discussion has gone the way of the dodo in so many places, hopefully it returns.
Thank you for your very thoughtful comment on this!
@@TheDanNation Oh yes, but those are undead, so its justified. i just forgot to mention that in my comment! 😂
after the fall of arthas and the massacure of much of the silver hand leadership the order was fractured and formed splinter factions within the order. this means there were plenty plaladins around but without solid leadership some of the factions would have started to open up to their allies (like dwarves) while others would have desired to inflict retribution on arthas and would have started to train in offensive holy magic as a result. basically, arthas's betrayal is why the paladins became what they are in wow.
I'm perfectly fine with that reasons, all I ask is Blizzard show us literally any of their work on this. Give us lore and world building around it, not just sudden change.
@@TheDanNationthey kind of do that with the Scarlet Monestary. They are the more militant and xenophobic members.
@@weirdalfan001 While you're very much correct in pointing out we do see a more aggressive, conservative group with Scarlet Monastery, we're really only seeing an end result and not the world building coming from or leading to major changes or choices. Good point though honestly!
WC1/2 Priests(Clerics etc) and then Paladin's also believed the light came from God so sometimes its good that things change - and there are definitely reasons why.. Paladin's aren't members of the Silver Hand, and are not bound by its restrictions, although many believe in the core ideals with good enough reason - At the end of the day the order, as you explain, doesn't even exist by the time of Vanilla, and hasn't for some time.
Of course, agree to disagree - this entirely seems a matter of terminology, but people reconstructing the idea of a paladin in a world where the order doesn't exist anymore and only its core sort of ideals exist would logically result in the Paladin's that came about in WoW, especially a world so devastated by conflict.
Also its kinda funny that Paladin's referred to as "selling their souls" to the Lich King are referred to by yourself as DK's, as you surely know, only Orc souls in dead human knights can ever be called Death Knights, damn Blizzard and their Warcraft 3 incorrect terminology. Just messing, but, you know.
Agree to disagree for sure, but thank you for taking the time to comment!
Ret should have been the evoker class first. Running while buffing everyone is incredibly paladin.
You aren't the first person to bring this up, and while from what I understand the Evoker is still a mess, I think it's very fitting from the information I have. Thank you for your comment!
@TheDanNation let me rephrase it ret should have been the augmentation subclass of evoker* sorry.
1:48 So what you're saying, Leto... is... stay a while, and listen?
Yes
Agreed. Paladins should heal only. Actually, just heal me. There we go.
I'm sure it'll go really well when you give Chill his healing assignment tomorrow.
@@TheDanNation Chill has had his Holy spec surgically removed. He's a warrior now.
@@toleplays2717 Take away that mans Bubble right now.
In early iterations of the Paladin class Kevin Jordan has talked about how they wanted to have Blessings be very powerful but short duration buffs you use on your allies (he didn't say this but I figure that things like the Blessings of Protection, Freedom and later Sacrifice are remnants of this system) however this playstyle really didn't work well which is why they made blessings 5min long buffs (later 15) and be less impactful.
I disagree because Alexandros Mograine did indeed use the light to harm others, and wielded a blade (Ashbringer) and he was Highlord of the Silver Hand. He also wielded a sword during the 2nd War. In medieval times, the hammer was an offensive weapon, whereas a sword was a defensive weapon, and so a warhammer is traditionally a stronger symbol of aggression. In the lore predating WoW, we see different types of paladins. Some are oriented towards healing, others martial prowess, others defense, and so I think WoW actually captured the early Paladin’s versatility and differences well. The Silver Hand was made up almost exclusively of nobility, and they were used to put down peasant revolts which threatened unity in the kingdom, and they used violence against other humans, and this is seen pre-WoW. When we read about descriptions of the first Paladins fielded against the Orcish Horde, we see they were performing offensive and healing roles, as well as a sort of support role bolstering their comrades during the fighting, hence Blessing of Might and Kings being lore-based.
Fantastic, great, Mograine is a post Vanilla construct that happened after they converted Paladins to what they turned into and doesn't support this in any way. Warhammer is a different franchise entire with an MASSIVELY different vibe, and while the Silver Hand WAS made up of membership of clergy and knightly order, that in no way indicates they were nobility. No, this was not shown pre-WoW. I award you no points for pulling post Vanilla lore out on this, and may god have mercy on your soul.
@@TheDanNation while Mograine was sort of retconned in, it wasn’t post-vanilla but during as Ashbgringer and Darion Mograine are in Vanilla Naxx. But the lore with Alonsus Faol is also retconned in in the same manner and you didn’t object to that. They place Mograine at the Battle of Blackrock Spire, and clearly in the lore Turalyon is there with a sword, along with Anduin Lothar as well. Turalyon even takes up Lothar’s sword. I never spoke about warhammer the series, but war hammers are offensive weapons, whereas swords are defensive weaponry. A war hammer like a battle axe is used to heavily pressure a foe.
You bringing up hammers and swords along with their more realistic uses and meanings is sadly irrelevant in fantasy, but in WoW especially. There are a lot more factors that you didn't include were present in medieval times, and were never deeply explored in this universe.
However the main reason is that in fantasy, the massively overwhelming majority of people consider swords as the epic hero's weapon, and associate offense with it, along with the axe and dagger. Meanwhile hammers and polearms don't get as much recognition in popular media, and are seen more as a supportive/defensive choice for the lesser characters. Its really just a habit of people, and has to do little with reality.
So for them, these symbols you mentioned are entirely different, therefore irrelevant.
Most WoW players aren't medieval experts I believe, and neither were the developers :D
Its more of an issue with WoW's class system. I feel every player should start as classless conscript and develop into the fighter or caster and earn the rite to become specific class/guild they want to be, like rpgs like Gothic/Gothic II have it.
Funnily enough Gothic II has a paladin guild/class, which is also elite warriors in kings army using holy magic alongside strength, byt to beocme them you have to earn your place as upstanding citizen in city of Khorinis by becoming an apprentice of one of the trade district master's.
Impressing all of them and then joining the city guard advancing from there.
I think WoW should work the same way. Gothic series is the more analogous as situation of Myrtana kingdom's situation is very dire and they are at war with Gothic worlds own orcs.(tho they are tribal they are a more closer to Warcraft 1/lord of the rings orcs, cultivating demons, but you do learn more about them as compared to Warcraft orcs bg the time of Warcraft III.
Where under Thrall's leadership they end up saving the world hand in hand with humans against demons and are hating demons for what they done to their oldnworld and people, using them the same way they used undead in Warcraft 3.
My pet peeves are faction split and classes in wow, usually cannibilizing several other sorts of racial specific casters and fighters from Warcraft 3.
Like wow Shaman merging everything from troll witch doctors(wards/totems), shamans and tauren spirit walkers. Similarily how druids cannibilized night elven priestess of the moon and devs giving night elves priests of the.....Light?
This never made sense to me. Same as factions with night elves being in alliance or undead in the horde.
I believe both of these should be their own factions. Having their independent neutral or friendly standing towards their own circle or allies(night elves being on mostly friendly terms woth Horde, Tauren and Jaina's Theramore and neutral to eastern kingdom's Old Alliance of dwarves humans and gnomes(maybe also remaining high elves if they added them).
Same as classes each faction should have their own reputation that you can improve/gain or loose no matter the race/faction of origin you are, you can eventually work hard enough to earn their trust even if they are initially hostile. Like few neutral factions that have this option in Vanilla wow.
Like Bloodsail buccaneers or goblin towns, centaur clans in desolace and have option to betray any of them if you wish with that "at war" option that you can enable to kill Booty bay guards for example.
For way Horde should have neutrap standing with Theramore, but Old alliance would have hostile standing, like Kul Tiras who attacked them after first reaching Kalimdor.
Old alliance could have "hated" reputation to the horde and forsaken as they still see them as same force that destroyed stormwind and lordaeron respectively.(plus Sylvanas literarily used and betrayed Garithos in retaking Lordaeton capital city).
Most Night elves like Sentinels and druids under Tyrande and Furion would be friendly to the Horde, Theramore and tauren, but maiev's Warden's and some elves who still hold a grudge against the orcs as Grom killed their demigod Cenarius wouldnt be so friendly.
Forsaken would ve on barely neutral standing with most as they are wholely independent while most might be hostile to them for obvious reasons of being scourge not so long ago. I see a path for them to be allied to remaining blood elves as they both hate the Scourge and many of forsaken are undead high elves, Sylvanas included and she would try to protect what is left of her homeland.
I think having world set up that way allows for far more realistic and flexible world and opportunities for players to play the way they like, with whomever they like, be it PvE, PvP or roleplay.
On top of that it would remain true to Warcraft 3 and its expansion's world and allow for more stories and interesting questing instead of painting the world red and blue 50/50 sometimes overtly ignoring the previous story...
I love thus, especially you bringing up Gothic and Gothic 2, some of my favorite RPGs ever! These are some really good ideas, have you tried the Ascension classless server by chance? I feel like you would really appreciate the depth of customization.
@@TheDanNation I heard of it for a while now, but didnt get to try it yet. Once i get more time i will tho. In meanwhile i got back to warmane, did also try Turtle wow a while back, around the time it came out. I might give it another go now, since i heard they done more things on it.
@@TheDanNation As for Gothic is love it too, i wish some mmo adapted its mechanics, it just made things matter more and deciding to go certain direction or guild was vastly different to other options, most other rpgs especially TES dont seem to do it that way.
Even simple things like weapon proficiency training and the animations associated with were all so satisfying to use and look at especially in Gothic 2.
I think it would add to experience of growing with the character if we starter waking single handed weapons cluelessly with bothbhands like its at the start of Gothic 1 😅
I know it would mena WoW would be starkly different as a game, since people including me do like how relaxing and "autopilot" wow can be at times when leveling, but i think it would be even better if it was....Gothic-like...
@@Kacpa2 I currently play on Turtle on both a Shadow Priest and Fury Warrior, it's worth your time for sure.
Silver Hand is Silver Hand. WoW Paladins are described explicitly as more than that, especially the Draenei Vindicators. There is no 1 to 1 mapping between classes of WC RTS-es and WoW and it was never a major driver. which is 10x more obvious when you look at hunters and later the skill drift between warlocks, death knights and demon hunters.
The fact that Warlocks even exist, despite having the practices banned by the Horde and having been considered a greater sin than necromancy by Dalaran and most other races is proof that Blizzard didn't give much of a care about consistency.
You're 100% right.
While I agree with most of your points, your video has a small issue that kind of destroys your point. The Silver Hand effictively dissolved between War3 and WoW. Paladins would now join new Orders, notably the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade, who both had different values in mind. Personally I feel like the tragic events in Lordaeron had to bring a huge cultural shift throughout human kind, that Paladins would have to change.
On Dwarfes: I feel like Dwarf Paladins are more political allies to show that the humans of Stormwind, the only ones inheriting Paladins. If you read the quest texts dwarf paladins get for their "Level 2 find the class trainer" -quest you can see that the humans only taught the dwarfes recently. I atleast read this, as if it was a political move.
As for other races of paladins, I agree. Draenei and Bloodelves and so on are only called paladins due to game limitations, as they differ a lot from the actual paladins. This is why in Lore they are called "Blood Knights", "Vindicators" or "Sun Walkers" for Tauren. Personally, I think its good that the game doesnt give the same classes (on a gameplay level) different names and that its worth the failure in flavour here.
I hope Im making sense, regardless, I subbed because I believe you sparked an interesting conversation and Im excited for your future talking points
I appreciate your thoughts on this, and while I feel the idea of destroying my points is a bit much, I'm glad you're thinking through all of this bigtime.
@@TheDanNation Okay I agree, I might over use absolute terms a little too much ^^
@@fiffi5318 No worries, I did bring it up for a reason, more to have people think about this from different perspectives though than to prove any point. Appreciate your thoughts on this!
Cleric vs priest vs paladin clerics shoulda been the leather mail holy class maybe kind like rogue mage warrior or demon hunter warlock death night or druid monk shaman
Late to the party, i like your take on the early paladins but i think the Ashbringer and its lore is what bridges the gap between early paladins and wow paladins. The ashbringer embodies the essence of paladins a perfect balance or mercy and judgement balanced apon the razors edge if a blade. Early paladins weakness much like the jedi you aptly compared them too was they would overly reluctant to trust thier judgement. With paladins like Arthas taking the far other extreme truating too much in their judgement. The ashbringer also paves the way for Dwarves to the paladinhood as the blade was forged by a dwarf, between that and the tales of greatness the Ashbringer and its first weilder would likly inspire dwarves to take up this tradition indipendantly of the silver hand. Likewise the draenai they too were tested by great all devouring hordes and independently arrived at this same balance as the Wow Paladin between light and martial prowess. A paladin fails when they faulter from the balance, even Mograne fell due to momentary lapse in judgement when he misjudged his own sons dark intentions.
A few folks have brought up The Ashbringer as a point of note in the comments on this video, don't get me wrong I appreciate it bigtime and want people to bring it up, but let me just clearly state my thoughts on the Ashbringer and Commander Mograine here.
The Ashbringer and Mograine were both created for or after Vanillas launch, thus putting them after the point where I'm contending. The specific lore you're referencing comes from the 2008 comics which have already been regarded as not canon, not just from myself but also Blizzard officially. My issue is with how Paladins were interpreted between Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft.
As a secondary and unrelated point, the comparison between Draenei and Order of the Silver Hand as similarly tested, while accurate, does not justify them suddenly being in the same knightly order, nor does it help justify Draenei's existence in the first place IMO.
Appreciate the thoughts, I apologize if this comes off as overly critical but I've studied this stuff for a very long time and feel it's important to be accurate and consistent with criticisms.
@@TheDanNation the comic may not be hard canon but it is definitely implied canon, very heavily in fact, so I wouldn't discount it out of hand. Multiple in game events reference elements of the story from the Scarlet Monastery's Cathedral scripted event when you walk in with the corrupted ashbringer, the purifying of the crystal that would become the the ashbringer within the caverns of time Old South Shore's Inn during the escape from Durnhold keep dungeon or the references during the Death knight Questline ending in Tirion becoming the ashbringer.
That bit in the caverns of time is especially important as that puts the events leading up to the creation of the ashbringer running concurrently more or less with the founding of Durotar.
Edit: also no worries on your tone I get what youre putting down I'm enjoying the discussion
@@ryanscanlon2151 I appreciate your thoughts, but I discount a LOT of post Vanilla lore, I would encourage you to watch the introductory episode of this series for more context.
18:07 *hamstrung
The story needed to evolve and adapt, not everything needed to stay as in the Warcraft games
As I said in the video, I'm entirely okay with it, I just ask that Blizzard showed their work, showed the developing storyline and show how change is difficult, or challenged, or literally anything. They showed us nothing.
This was fantastic. Thank you.
Thank you for your comment, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
If you wanted to would you be able to actually play a lore accurate paladin in WoW? Feels like - yes.
I've thought about trying it out on the classless realm, rebuilding a lore accurate Paladin from scratch, maybe in the future when I have the time to!
@@TheDanNation The only thing I'd be worried about is the character being extremely boring to actually play since it would ultimately boil down to autoattack.
@@eyevou There are so many ways it could be made not boring, but yes as it is on classic/vanilla, just subtracting stuff would make it boring. This is why I'd do it on the classless server so I could add in other viable mechanic.
i dunno I like being a holy beyblade in wotlk
This made me laugh a lot harder than I'm willing to admit.
Well played.
While I do agree the ret spec is poorly named I think there are a number of assumptions taken from the RTS games that are being made into law. The idea that the light can’t or should be used to harm unless it’s undead felt more like a gameplay choice more then anything else. Remember in early vanilla blizzard said all forsaken are shadow priests because they can’t use the light. Then they changed their minds and said they could use the light but it hurt them. All the way to now and the light can be used in necromancy. I do feel the Paladin should be more of a support class that supports/heals/tanks for their Allie’s on the battlefield but that’s from the silver hands POV.
One element you didn’t touch on was something I love about paladins and it’s that every race (excluding dwarfs) has their own order of “paladins.” Be it Blood knights, sun walkers, scarlet crusade/argent dawn/ silver hand, vindicators or Draenei. So many races have “light wielding warriors” but each one is different. The fact that wow paladins use the light offensively since so many paladins died in WC3. Ya it would be great to have more quests about it but wow’s lore from vanilla and BC the sketchy at best.
I didn't touch on the element of each faction having their own Paladins is because it's legitimately nonsense when you look at how the Silver Hand was initially formed. There were no other orders of Paladins because no one else was allowed in to take up the mantle. Sure that can change, but you need to show that change and development over time, you can't just whip around a magic wand and say it's so like Blizz did.
@@TheDanNation in BC they did that with blood knights as they weren’t founded until then. They stole the power of the light from the Naruu and that is part of their quest line that they aren’t “paladins” but blood knights. Though by the end they renounce those choices and start using the light “naturally” but didn’t give up using it offensively. Though this is all lore added in BC which doesn’t help with classic. The same with Draenei lore since it too was added in BC. Though I do agree it was something that confused me in wow was that paladins from Stormwind was a thing then they were mostly known for being up north but I guess it does many some sense since many of the first paladins were from the area around SW.
@@bryia3366 I appreciate you wanting to explain this, but let me assure you I'm not confused about it in any way, I'm just willing to call out the bad writing on it. Thank you though.
@@bryia3366 Agreed, this is why I have less of a problem with Blood Knights
Or "Justicar" tree.
or even just Justice tree, all going in the right direction I feel!
Paladins isn't really a human only thing and their tenants wouldn't apply to all factions. Suwalkers for instance are warriors of the sun and lorewise would use the golden sun rays. I do agree that it's lazy palys use Silverhand no matter what.
This is talking about the translation between Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft Vanilla, and I personally entirely discount not only Draenei Paladins but also Tauren Priests/Paladins especially. Please rewatch the episode as well as the initial episode for this series and note the timeframe and parameters I use.
Don't let this video get to Asmongold lol
No comment
Yes Paladin should be in WoW but vanilla didn’t do the class justice. The lore on them is all trash, I like how you point out the lore on how much martial prowess is key to the class but you never circle around to it. You have the same problem that the dev team that took over mid way through the vanilla development did and focus too much on healing. All 3 trees in vanilla was trash, holy should focus on increasing their healing but should do aoe heals and group wide buffs that enhances and rally their allies durning combat and not sitting in the back twiddling their thumbs. Everything Paladin does should involve fighting or defending in melee combat; which is the reason why they were formed in the first place or they would had just stayed the clerics they were.
But retribution should not had been a talent tree; in the beta it was combat and not retribution. This was remove due to some snowflakes from EQ that somehow took lead positions at blizz. But pally should had been Holy (Melee Support/Healer), Protection (Tank), Combat (dps). And yes judgement should never had been a Paladin spell, paladin’s dps should had been come straight from all their melee combat skills. Paladin should had been like a warrior but with dmg & defensive buffs to enhance their dmg & defense. While battle shout & etc of buffs warriors had should not had been in the game for warriors. Then holy should had been the AOE healer class, by using certain abilities it drop the cast time on their heals to become instant heals & instant aoe heals & etc.
I respect your approach on this bigtime, and while I'd be concerned how close this concept gets to Warrior Priests in Warhammer Online, Vanilla was there 6 years before them all things considered.
I don't feel like I'm focusing too hard on healing, as healing and reinforcing the spirit of the peoples of Lordaeron was a major reason they came together, and I have to rebuke you on complaining I didn't circle back to combat for Paladins, as I took time to discuss how we should reconstruct the physical damage tree more than any other.
Side note, dropping ridiculous namecalling like saying people are snowflakes will just get your comments removed in the future, please refrain from that. We keep things professional here.
Ehh, you had me up until Draenei, I think you're being too nitpicky.
Hoo boy, I can't *WAIT* for you to hear my thoughts on Draenei more directly.
There are a few things wrong.
The Order of Silverhand, as far as I know, were not Paladins. They were just the Knights of Lordearon.
The Paladins just recruited from the Knights of the Silverhand, thus many Silverhands were later also Paladins. But this is just a little knitpick.
The problem is that we did, in vanilla, not play Lordearon Paladins. We played Paladins from Stormwind. A City that had just been rebuilt and capital to a Kingdom that is far away from Lordearon.
Therefore it is only logical that the doctrine is different.
Stormwind was also destroyed by the Orcs. Not only does that give a good reason to have "Retribution" as part of the Paladin's doctrine, but if you look at the Paladin tree, you see that the background is the throneroom of Lordearon. The very throne room where Arthas murdered his father. The very Throne room that leads now to the Undercity.
Retribution makes complete sense, when you consider that the Knights of the Silverhand and the Paladins of Lordearon are now without Kingdom to protect and all they can do is deliver "Retribution" to the destroyers of their Kingdom.
But, as mentioned, we're not the Paladins from Lordearon. We're playing the Paladins of Stormwind. The doctrine of the Paladins of Lordearon does not necessarily apply to us, and if it does, aforementioned reason makes it extremely plausible, that Retribution is part of our agenda. Lordearon was the saviour of the Stormwind Refugees. It is only fitting that the Paladins of Stormwind want retribution against those that destroyed Lordearon. Justice for the destroyed kingdom that they owe their lives to.
You also mentioned that the Paladins were defensive in Nature. Defenders of humanity... and then there was one of the greatest heroes of the Alliance. Turalyon. Turalyon the guy that said "Fuck defending" and went through the dark portal, to hunt down Orcs and kill them, so they could never threaten Azeroth again, after creating not just one but TWO dark portals. And Turalyon brought Paladins. Lordearon's Paladins no less. And together they fucked up the horde in their home world.
The only problem I have with the implementation of the vanilla Paladin is, that we can't use Holy Light to damage undead and only to heal ourselves and others.
I appreciate your comment and your well thought out response. I will say, I disagree with almost everything you said here, but I appreciate you took the time to bring your thoughts to the table. Thank you so much!
think conflating paladins with the order of the silver hand is the issue.they may have been the first paladins that doesn’t necessarily mean they have to be the ONLY ones. And in fact the silver hand specifically are destroyed in WCIII.
So here's the thing with this, Paladin is a specific title granted with training and acceptance to the Order of the Silver Hand, based on Warcraft 2 and 3 lore. Crusaders running around smashing things and using the light however the want can exist, but they're not *CALLED* paladins. If the name of the class had been Crusader or Inquisitor or some other BS like that, there would be zero problem and you would be correct.
You are not correct in this regard. Even if every single member of the Silver Hand was wiped out during the Scourging of Lordaeron, which they weren't, anyone trying to follow in their footsteps wouldn't be considered Paladins because they didn't receive proper training. Call them whatever you want after that point, but they're not Paladins.
this only makes sense in the realm of literal terminology, yes, the Humans were the first ones to come up with the term "Paladin" but they are far from the first or only Light wielding warriors on Azeroth. Arguably first place(if we discount the Draenei for being alien to Azeroth) goes to the Zandalari trolls, who have had Prelates for longer than Humanity has even existed
We're talking about strictly in the timeline of Warcraft 2 to Warcraft 3 to World of Warcraft, the later expansions, especially Warlords and BfA, are hot garbage and I don't consider them in this.
lol at this point, no one has any fkn idea about the lore at blizzard, their pulling rabbits outta their ass.
Unfortunately, as the expansions progressed, it really became entirely unraveled. I wish I could say otherwise.
some may argue the point that the first iteration of paladins did have some restrictions but after the fall of Lorderon the survivors let go of those restrictions and that is taken into consideration regarding the human paladins
and if you take that this is game lore made specifically to enrich the game not to limit the game some diversions from the lore are allowed if the need arises in game development
and everything can be used as a weapon to limit the light in that way will be strategically stupid
not to mention Draenei the foremost users of the light would have a superior form of the paladins in the forms of the Exarchs and Vindicators not to mention the Blood elf lore of the paladins bending it like a prism with magic it reminds me of the class Spellbreaker and now every race has some light infused warrior class under the umbrella of paladin but the lore and specifics are different for each race the name of the class paladin and the usable skills in that class are generalised if they didn't do that they had to give each race a unique job with unique skills and just think the hell of trying to balance that hellish creation
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I disagree on almost every point you make here, especially being okay with deviations from established lore and world building.
You used "Begs the question" a few times in the video, but I do not think you know what it means. It is not a synonym for "This raises the question". Begging the question is a formal logical fallacy where the argument in support of an assertion is the same or a simple restatement of the assertion itself.
"Pizza is the best food, because all other foods are not as good" is begging the question, since the argument "other foods are not as good" is just a restatement of "Pizza is the best food".
Okay.
Alexandros Mograine used the Ashbringer during the time of the Scourage. The only difference between a paladins and warriors, aside from the use of holy magic. Is that warriors are willing to use brutal attacks.
Also the Silver Hand was dissolved or destroyed by the time WoW started. With most of the Paladins going with the Argent dawn or Scarlet Crusade, only to be reformed in Legion.
So I am not surprised if Paladins had to adapt to possible new roles against new enemies. Paladins still serve a purpose as an knight priest under the same leadership.
The Ashbringer lore was all written for or after Vanilla and as such has nothing to do with this problem. It happened past the timeframe the original offense took place.
@@TheDanNation I am aware of that. The lore has changed from WC1 too WoW. Paladins were using other weapons in WC2 the knights in WC3 shared similar models. Even the “upgrade swords” applies to paladins in WC2.
@@somerandominternetdweller No Paladin in either Warcraft 2 or 3 ever used something else other than a hammer or maul.
PErsonally i think the idea of free will trumps this. especially when you consider a lore that is constantly developing. Sure at some point in history i can see that HUMAN Paladins decided to handicap themselves to send some vague message to the opposition. And to stand forth as some paragon of good. Defending the weak and whatnot. As the story develops and evolves. so too does its inhabitants. I can absolutely see a reason that with war on the horizon (and as damn frequent as WoW) That Paladins understood that to continue to remain paragons of justice and good, they had to evolve. especially when Arthas and his Death Knights showed up. Still i do find your interpretation interesting and the idea of a purely defensive paladin (basicly holy spec) To be quite amusing.
As I said in the video, I'm totally fine with the world changing and evolving, and the Silver Hand doing so with it, that's completely legitimate and will happen no matter what.
What I'm asking for is for Blizz to have shown their work, show HOW and WHY the Silver Hand evolved, show the struggles and difficulties, and how it helped them succeed in a world once again split by war. We never got any of that.
EASY, when they were reformed after the culling they did away with the "passive" light abilities, thus in Vanilla they can now use the light for all offensive traits its a new order. with new rules.
Good. Great. Fantastic. They showed none of that, zip. We get no background on this immense shift in the order or doctrine and the problem still stands.
I don't care if change happens, change can happen, but with this massive of a change they *NEEDED* to show their work and they showed us nothing, just asked us to accept this was the new norm for Paladins.
pallies seem fine how they are
you can view ret the same way shadow priests are viewed as priests, but just within the light, between pally and crusader
I'll be honest, I feel like this is a gross oversimplification, they're very different religious groups.
@@TheDanNation they are different, but you would say the same for a farseer and a spirit walker and a witch doctor but they are all under the umbrella of shaman.
@@RiddleOfLightning No, I'm sorry to be so blunt but this is inaccurate.
@@TheDanNation what? the shaman in its history has had 'spirit link totem' (spirit link from spirit walker), 'astral shift' (astral form), 'chain heal' (healing wave from shadow hunter), hex (hex), searing totem (serpent ward), sentry totem (sentry ward from witch doctor), healing stream totem (healing ward) need I go on?
you made your entire video based on 1 piece of artwork in warcraft 2 and a model in warcraft 2 need to only use maces
@@RiddleOfLightning and you're stating that just because Blizzard crunched things together when they converted their universe from Warcraft 3 to World of Warcraft that they did so in reasonable and correct ways. Those abilities should not have been condensed all into one class just because only one class ended up having totems. Crunching the universe doesn't justify anything in this situation.
Dwarves being paladins is well established by Muradin Bronzebeard, who was a paladin already in Warcraft 3.
What? No, that's wildly off base. He was a Mountain King, not a Paladin. Are you okay?
Muradin Bronzebeard is and has always been a paladin. Maybe you're confusing him with his brother, Magni?@@TheDanNation
@@Solo_Traveling No, he has never been a paladin. In Warcraft 3 he was what's called a Mountain King, something Blizzard completely forgot about along with a few other hero classes. Please go back and read the Warcraft 3 manual before continuing this conversation.
I respect your opinion but I desagree about the fact that paladins cannot harm enemies. That's because since Warcraft 2, the paladins can use the light to harm evil creatures like undeads and demons. Habilities like exorcism exists since wc 2 and that skill do damage on horde death Knights and their skeleton minions. On Warcraft 3 you can use que skill Holy Light to do damage on undead and demon. That's the main reason for me to say: paladins can use the light to harm what they consider evil and unholy. I see the class much as I see a crusader, more specifically a Hospitalarer Knight or templar Knight or teutonic Knight, they have the objective to protect the christian inocents and attack the heretics. Historically the hospilatarians Knights are also medics on Battlefield.
So, were you listening to what I was saying in the video? I specifically talk about how Paladins ability to purge tye undead is consistent between titles and very important.
Please review your comment and try again.
For the xenophobia part I would disagree, I don't know if you have ever read the ashbringer comic but there you get to know why there are other races that can be paladins and that comes to the fact that the silver hand does not exist anymore because it was splitted in two, one group formed the scarlet crusade and another one the argent dawn, the scarlet crusade was fanatical and very racist meanwhile the argent dawn accepted every race, and this is not during wow lore but actually between wc2,wc3 and the start of the WoW timeline, and the whole splitting revolves around the corruption of the silver hand that came through the years, I really suggest you read the comic, even tho it breaks a lot of points of what paladins should actually be it's very lore important, it's 100% canon and I think that it should not be let aside like this because it explains a lot of things.
I would encourage you to watch my initial episode and understand I set strict parameters on what I feel should be considered canon. I generally write off the comics, manga, and most novels, depending on context. Sone stuff was just really badly written.
Any good points you had got entirely thrown out with your last sentence.
Paladins where wiped out and so any newbies calling themselves paladins don't know the traditions of mace only and no wrath.
Also I always though retribution is the halfway point between justice and vengeance.
So, because I speculated on possible backgrounds for why there could have been a change in the Silver Hand, everything I presented, in your opinion, is meaningless?
Have you ever put a research project together, or done situational or risk analysis? Try again with something higher than a plywood tier take, for all our sake.
@@TheDanNation how to lose potential subscribers in one simple comment
You lost me with your Draenei tangent. Lore changes over time. There's no way Draenei were "supposed to be". We met the broken. Then we met the proper Draenei.
I'm fine with lore changing. I'm not fine with massive retcons that delete huge swaths of history. Sorry not sorry.
Great video but holy crap stop reiterating every single detail 80 times before you make your dang point! I get it, they were trained for martial prowess and healing, and were trained for healing and martial prowess, etc etc.
I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. I like hurting people with the light and my dranie is a paladin lol
Honestly, that's fair, more power to people and their own choices! XD