Even IF they hit certain bullet points that are in the book, they were so rushed as to be unintelligible, and that's ENTIRELY the showrunners' fault, not the viewers. The entire complaint is "this was absurdly rushed", they can't lecture us on "oh well you should have seen this coming". --- "well if they didn't rush it, it would have been good".....well, it WAS rushed.
@@thedragondemands5186 exactly, like a decent amount of the plot points in later seasons were things that I think make sense on paper in broad strokes, but were massively rushed and came out of nowhere for the show. Some stuff is obviously BS like the whole going beyond the wall to get a zombie thing or Jaime claiming he doesn’t care about innocent people. However, things like bran becoming an all knowing husk, Jon falling in love with and eventually killing Dany, Dany becoming more violent and the people of Westeros rejecting her, Varys betraying Dany, and Sansa being the one to take down Littlefinger all make perfect sense as progressions of their character, especially in the books where major and minor changes make these progressions more smooth. They were just massively rushed
I got into an argument with someone in some TH-cam comments on a random video where they said all the end season stuff was just made up and was nowhere near what GRRM had planned. instead of just saying it was many of his plans and they were just rushed, like I had been arguing the whole time with them. I don't know where they would get that from that D&D just made it all up out of thin air
I still have major doubts George intends Dany to go mad. Why write such a compassionate, self-reflective and tenacious character only to have her “go mad” in the last two books? It’s not enough time. It would also send an incredibly reactionary message to have the former slave bride who campaigns against slavery be the final big bad, there’s no way to separate her becoming a villain from her arc about ending slavery. The message will be, “don’t challenge the status quo or abusive power structures or you’ll go crazy! Especially if you’re an overly emotional woman!” These implications would make me lose respect for George if he did this, even if it’s “well-written.”
Also, characters in the books talk about Dany being an inspirational figure too. Dany is a perceptive character, and she never describes seeing 13 year old children wearing tokars in Astapor.
Look , she isnt about to go insane , probably just sunken cost fallacy +yearning for home + a fucking kid she is + entitlement put in by vizzy about westeros , she is going to perhaps ho Haywards temporarily loosing herself in her conquest wich with dragons is ugly work Then realise after one specially horrible act what she is doing , maybe someone death , or kl going boom , and go back to her true values and redeem herself by being instrumental to beat the long nights I have the feeling she will burn the Thorne and melt herself as the turning point and going back to herself Because since the beginning dany plan is kinda .....tethering the morality , conquest I believe , and imposing your rule , you as a person to a community of ethnically different people is just awfull , she don't realise it because she is kind and compassionate but a feudal charachter . And I like this arc because dany have flaws and she succomb to them then battle them off , because in life if you don't keep yourself in check you get bad let alone if you are currently getting wiirshiped
Also dany so far I read in the books want westeros because it's her home , tbr she is such a perfect exemple off the plight of children refugees , and feel entilted to it , and think she can fo a better job , but nowhere she said something about breaking the wheel yet , her claim to westeros is mad aerys , the targaryen ruling are the status quo , she live 5o years , perhaps have a child , I do t believe she is fully barren m and we are back to the situation before the story , just the names of the lords will change , starks replaced by Mormons maybe for example Her having a total win is if you have blood of kings and nukes and not scum of the earth , you have the right to put the country to blood to get your RIGHT to rule people The best ending is an oligarchy or rome senate situation , and no targ , dany or jon or young griff , need the throne If dany don't die in the long night , I can see her finally founding the red doored house I also don't see jon and dany being enemies , I don't like them as lovers either , but I see them as a great complicity potential
@@Glamuel kinda weird of her to mention the lower age limit of people to kill being 12 when she orders the unsullied (still her slaves at this point) to kill all the slavers. 16 is the age of adulthood in westeros and even that is despicably young to be killing. i don't really think it's a madness though, just some vile middle ages fantasy crap they thought was normal
This does not confirm Dany’s “mad turn”; in fact Elio claims Dany ordered the death of 13 year olds, when in fact what she said was “harm no child under twelve” and is the ONLY character to say the words “harm no child”. Dany is in fact much MORE heroic in the books. She was not evil by any stretch. Lastly, GRRM wrote ASOIAF all by himself and does not have a co-writer. GRRM confirmed three things: -The twist with Hodor -The burning of Shireen -Bran being King That’s it. If Dany is a “mad queen” it would be repetitive and ultimately stale, because Cersei is already a “mad queen”. I get you dislike this character but to diminish GRRM’s work by pretending he had a co-writer for ASOIAF, and that ANYONE other than GRRM can “confirm” anything other than their own opinion is a bit out of line.
its true heroic killing civilians since you dont kill their kids, i desagreed about she becoming a mad queen, but she is far from heroic, heroes dont burn people for raging
@ killing a bunch of random civilians was way out of character, and there’s no confirmation that absolute trash fire is the planned ending for the books. No one knows except GRRM.
@@RamosAjala Correct me if im wrong, haven’t read the books in a while, but she sed and im paraphrasing: ”kill all the masters but harm no one under 12” That doesn’t mean kill everyone OVER 12 and it definitely doesn’t mean kill civilians. Cuz she sed kill all the MASTERS - and there are no innocent civilians who are masters - and don’t kill any children INCLUDING the children of the slavers. And to be fair, those over 12 are often considered to be at the cusp of their adulthood in asoiaf. That thought process is as bad but also culturally acceptable as Ned killing that Nights Watch deserter and bringing his very young son with him. Its all about the context of the world they live.
At what part in storm is dany evil? How does Dany killing slavers and freeing enslaved people make her evil or mad? Especially coming from a slave herself
In the books, she also kills free people (not slavers) from astapor, every man using a Tokar with 12 year older (acessory used by free pp of the city), than the woman got rapped and kids got alone and became slaves by the butcher (after she leaves the city). She also kills people from meereen (inocent?, maybe), trying to punish tha Harpy, "i'll let the dragon decide if your are inocent"
@@RamosAjala tokars are a symbol of being a slave master in Astapor. Could you imagine if Tywin (or any war commander in Westeros) had said "harm no children under 12" while sacking King's Landing? BTW children under 12 are murdered and raped in the sacking. Dany was 14 and had no way of knowing what would happen in Astapor after she left. Additionally, the books make no mention women being raped or children becoming slaves. Instead it says "The Butcher King had restored slavery to Astapor, the only change being that the former slaves were now the masters and the former masters were now the slaves." She never kills any innocent ppl in Merreen She literally never says anything like this in books "i'll let the dragon decide if your are inocent" Where you got this quote from, I have no idea. IDK where you got any of this from, but it's not the books.
@@RamosAjalathat scene where Dany says “I’ll let the dragon decide” NEVER HAPPENED IN THE BOOKS. It would be so lovely if people would actually read the books before making comments like that. Dany is not evil and the only people who think she is are the ones wringing their hands for slavers. This is the only fandom I’ve ever seen defend slavery this hard but ffs stop lying about what happened in the books.
Preston answered this directly; she orders 12 year old's to be executed. Yeah they were from slave owning families, but 12 year olds aren't generally regarded to have the amount of agency that would make execution a moral thing to do (even in the story's world). Calling Danny evil isn't accurate, but her actions since the ending of AGoT are a violently mixed bag morally. I don't see how readers can think she's supposed to be a good-guy-fighting-evil character.
D&D's "different philosophical view" was "show off these performances and these faces" -- they do not HAVE an "interpretation" or "spin" other than "show off the actors to ride the coat tails of celebrity culture". Why does everyone keep overthinking this?
As a Dany fan who hates her Mad Queen arc to the core, I'll try to explain myself here. George made it clear in his first outline in 1993 that Dany was a threat to Westeros, but to me it always seemed more like a culture clash, Dany conquering Westeros with the wild Dothraki hordes and the Unsullied. The fact that she goes mad is what bothers me, not that she's a threat in general. I also think season 8 has twisted the chronology of events. It was always clear that the final battle would be against the Others. So I think Dany invades Westeros first and wreaks havoc without knowing what she's doing because she's not familiar with the culture, not because she's gone mad. She is then hated by the people because she invaded their land with foreign barbarians and then she gets a Redemption Arc in the War against the Others.
Nah I'm pretty sure the final person to sit the Iron Throne won't be decided until after the fight with the Others and it'll be a battle for the throne.
@@King_Mac80 I'm not sure. The show did it that way, but it feels like the Throne is a secondary concern - the book themes are screaming out that titular Game of Thrones is all a distraction what should be an existential battle for survival. Resolving the Throne after suggests that is the real/important conflict,.when I feel like the message is "it doesn't matter who's ass is in the chair if everyone freezes to death".
@@King_Mac80and at that point, I'd wager the continent will be ravaged, and the 'council' we saw will be about deciding how to best pick up the pieces, not about any genuine ambition for the throne. Brann makes sense as King because as the Three Eyed Crow, he has access to all the world's knowledge, and would likely know how best to rebuild the country after the Long Night. It seems silly that after spending books emphasizing how the struggle for feudal power is meaningless, Martin now reverts back to having his characters end the story by struggling for power yet again.
1. Daenerys is obviously heroic in the books too. The show didn't paint her heroic, Martin himself did it and confirmed it. 2. What children did she torture or kill intentionally?
Dunno. After thinking about it a lot, I recognised that she shows a certain indulgence in cruelty/vengeance that other characters do not, despite say Arya, Jon or so being responsible in their own fair share of killing, rightful or not. But burning somebody alive? Having the daughters of a suspect tortured before him? Having everybody over twelve be killed? If you think about it, none of the other "good" characters have done things on that level.
@@LarthVshe's also one of the few characters who constantly considers the cost of war, makes concessions to make peace (even when it clearly disadvantages her, and makes her more vulnerable), worries over the common folk and their wellbeing, actively goes out to care for the sick and dying herself, and most importantly, routinely questions her own decisions, mental acuity and wellbeing. She is perceptive for her age, clever and compassionate, and does understand her position surprisingly well (so many people say she is lovestruck with Daario and trusts him explicitly, when she repeatedly mentions she knows what he is, knows he only wants her as a Queen, doesnt love her, and that relying and trusting him would spell dissaster). When she does resort to violence or threats of violence it's in defense of others, in service of ending the institution of slavery. Miri Maz Durr is the exception for this, and idk about you, but if someone murdered my child in your womb, and left me barren, I'd say an extreme and murderous response is not out of the norm. Like why is it that feudal Lords resorting to common punishments is accepted as part of the times and culture, but when she behaves in the same way, she gets judged more harshly? EVEN when she renegs on her decision, and recognizes the pitfalls of using said punishment, she is still treated like a monster. She's scolded for not immediately recognizing the violent nature of war and for not ending it right away, and for even daring to try methods to mitigate it to best of her ability (which yeah, sure, a 14yo pregnant child bride with no support system or protection, whose power is entierly reliant on her 30yo rapist husband liking her can 100% command the Dothraki to abandon ALL PLUNDER AND RAPE cause it's wrong. And don't give me the whole he is going to war for her, he is going to war cause Robert attempted to assassinate his son in the books. When Dany asked him to do it previously, he dismissed her) She is not perfect by any stretch of the word, and has made mistakes, but she is still not the worst evil the world has ever seen. People take jer entitlement from the show and project it onto her book self, even when Martin uses the house with the red door as a reoccurring motif in her storyline as a symbol for what she truly wants-a home, a family, a sense of belonging, while the throne is something she explicitly pursues out of a sense of duty for her heritage as the last Targaryen. And she still delays her pursuit of it in favor of ensuring stability in a country where she knows she doesn't belong in, and people repeatedly urge her to leave (Quentyn is literally the embodiment of her ticket out of Meereen, as are Xaro's ships, and she reject them all cause she knows she is needed there to protect the freed men)
@@LarthV I think the main issue a lot of people have with the 'Mad Dany plot' is that what is shown and the show runners saying were clear indicators of Dany being 'mad'... just aren't. Some say it goes back to her brother's death, but that man had abused her, sold her, threatened to cut her unborn child out and kill her moments before. Is it mad not to look away when he's killed? Most would say no. Having the masters crucified after having to follow a path to the city where the masters had child slaves crucified all the way there as a message to her... is that mad? Most would also say no. Characters such as Stannis have characters (including his and his wife's family) killed and burned alive.. no one calls Stannis 'mad'. No one called Robert B. mad for allowing a butcher's boy to be killed. No one called Tywin Lannister mad for having the Targarian kids butchered or any of the other deaths he ordered. Dany already heeded several people's counsel and accepted to meet Cersei on 'peace terms' and it lead to Cersei's betrayal. She sent no soldiers. Set traps which murdered Dany's friends, her dragon, and it's Cersei that filled King's Landing with human shields. What in her mind would make her think that those bells weren't another trick that would lead to the death of her last dragon? Of her men on the ground?
@@Skypirateinc I dont think we should take anything that happened on the show as gospel cause Show Dany and Book Dany are two different characters. Show Dany is zapped of her compassion, political acumen and perceptiveness in favor of making her an entitled badass who only cares about the throne. Her book counterpart's reoccurring desire is to have a home, a family and a sense of belonging, and continues to pursue the throne cause she feels it's her duty as the last Targaryen. She threatens people less than her show counterpart, doesn't feel entitled to love or gratitude, routinely questions herself, and her capabilities, and dreams of abandoning her life as a Queen to live like a normal peasant girl. She understands people fear her, and that dragons do not inspire love, and is under no delusion that she is universally beloved. She also feels extremely guilty for failing the people under her protection and feels undeserving of the devotion the freed men have toward her, cause 'what kind of Mother lets her children starve and die?' Hell, she delays her conquest of Westeros specifically so she can ensure the well being of those she freed from slavery. Her book self tries to compromise with slavers, even though its abundantly clear they're lying to her, and will assassinate her at the first opportunity so they can reinstate slavery everywhere. But she does it cause she thinks she has no choice, and the people need this peace-even though its not even a peace. Show Dany is barely the same character. She flip flops between delusion about being loved and entitlement for the crown, stays in Meereen more so because she wants to learn governance, less than protect the freedmen, and somehow develops entitled beliefs about being the chosen one when her book self doesn't even know about the Azor Ahai prophecy much less that she fulfilled the requirements, per the Red priests. And still despite the lackluster characterization, the show runners framed her as more heroic and badass consistently, even when she supposedly was doing bad shit. Only to then turn around and go full on Niemöller and compare her going after the institution of SLAVERY as being comparable to her randomly nuking a city full of innocent women and children. Literally what was the point of her story? Don't try to change the status quo, dont try to end slavery, or you will end up as a mad tyrant? How is that even comparable to the Nazis. It was not only lackluster but insulting to people's intelligence.
@@TheaTheGenius Please not that I _personally_ think that most of all she is an abandoned, abused child, and I actually pitty her a lot. And what I said is _not_ to take away any of her abundant good qualities. And by all means, she is still _better_ than most of the show or book characters (Stannis, Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, Aeron, let alone people like Ramsay or Euron). All I was noting is that there is a certain streak that can lead down a very dark path if not controlled properly, and the circumstances can reduce this control...
I think that George is even a little embarrassed because he already knows it is impossible to finish it in two books and that at this point he knows he is looking very disorganized and at the same time he does not want to commit to any more ASOIAF books
I believe this. The man realized he has to make more books in order to close the story properly and the thought of making more huge ass books is discouraging
@@ItsButterBean1020 oof yes. As much as being a gardener has served him, it's also screwed him over immensely. There is no way he can finish for example Dany's arc in Essos in Winds alone, because there is so much shit for her to do. That's not even mentioning everyone else who might require an even more complex resolution (we just started getting to know Euron, and from the little we have seen of him, dude is poised to be a villain of Eldritch proportions). That's not even mentioning Faegon, the throne, Cersei, Jamie, Brann, Stannis and freaking Jon. We will likely never get the books, and even if George gives us the broad strokes ending before he finishes them, there is no guarantee the ending he initially planned is the ending that will match the gardening he did most recently.
@@TheaTheGenius all of this you mentioned is material for three big books alone, without counting new plotlines he may want to add like the measter conspiracy or the lore around the white walkers
@@OfficialRedTeamReview I think literally everything that happened in the show at the end was at the ultimate direction of George - I think George himself has effectively confirmed as much - but that reality won't automatically make some of the character endings in the books palatable to large parts of the fandom. Dany is if anything a drop in the ocean here. The fanonisation/headcanoning of, for example, Stannis, is even more extreme. His fanbase will go absolutely nuts when Shireen happens. The fact that it's been thirteen years has not helped matters here remotely; people have developed and then become entrenched in their own headcanons without canon direction. When/if we get a new book there will be some BIG backlashes.
Read the fisher king theory and come back tho , bran is written and is intended as a sort of king arthur figure as per george words and it is very book foreshadowed
@@louyou6614 never going to read the books (for a bunch of reasons but the biggest one being Martin is going to die before he finishes them). I’m just talking about the show.
The perfect impetus for Dany to have a final mental break would of course be for her to discover that she is merely a dragonseed and that her driving sense of entitlement to the Iron Throne is based on a lie.
I too watched it and you're wrong. He literally said and I'm quoting him: "for many people it felt clumsy and rushed and maybe if it had not been clumsy and rushed and had played out at a pace more like how George intended it might've worked better. For example Dany's turn. I think it's stupid as hell that a bunch of bells would make her go genocidal but I've always said, her final chapter in dance of dragons, is not a positive chapter.... So I can see that that is an aspect of the story that George has intended" He noted Dave & Dan rushing the pace, criticized one specific part, Dany's turn, and said that George intended that. It's also widely known that Dave & Dan got the ending story beats *from* George so....you put 2 and 2 together and well...here we are. Obviously Elio is not going to spoil anything but, in that moment, he kinda alluded to it.
@@jimboslice6367 You mean the guy who has private communications with George often, has worked with him before, is the man's fact checker, and whom George has confided in several times(the lunch they had where george complained to him about HotD S2) isn't privy to the end game story beats of the series? lol okay if you say so
@@OfficialRedTeamReview you understand English right? Read your own damn quote you just posted of Elio. He’s basing his opinion on an already published chapter. Nowhere does he say he knows the ending or future plot lines
@@jimboslice6367 do you understand english? Carmine pretty much spelled it out for you but you're so up the dany fanclub you can't imagine anything else. its quite obvious Elio can't give out spoilers and is, clearly, alluding to it.
Dunno doesn't sound like he confirmed it at all to me. I find it hard to see Dany making it to KL before JonCon/YG and Cersei fight it out. Cersei is the Mad Queen and JonCon is a ticking time bomb. Dany will not care about YG being king because that poor boy will die, the cyvasse game with Tyrion gives that away imo. She will hear about her nephew and be happy for family only for her to arrive late. Personally tired of the Mad Queen/Women in the Attic trope, even though Cersei has a great buildup she's Aerys 2.0 at this point. After everything making Dany go mad, Bran be evil or whatever, Arya losing her humanity etc all of these theories would be so depressing and feel off for GRRM. Someone that loves dreamers and those that fight for change. Someone who gave up going home and married for peace to try and help people going mad is yuck ngl.
Robert Jordan sadly devolved into incredible long-windedness after he became successful. It was only once he was diagnosed with cancer that he started tightening up the story. If GRRM had written two books in the last 13 years then he'd still have two more books to write. But we'd all be a bit happier about it, something is better than nothing after all.
I wrote a comment earlier and it seems to be gone :( Maybe it got deleted by Carmine, hopefully not, but TLDR: I hate the Dany turns mad because 1) it's too late for that even in the books 2) it's a cope out and strips Dany of her agency 3) it's a stale trope: the heroine/female lead goes mad/crazy and has to be put down like a dog by the male hero/her lover. George is better than that. I prefer Dany just going full conqueror, which means getting her hands dirty, like she did in Storm but this time on a dragon. I want her to do ruthless things, all for the sake of the throne, a breaking bad arc sort of stuff.
Lol buddy, if you didn't say anything racist or sexist that TH-cam's comment automod would pick up then you're fine. if i delete your comment, you'll know.
Bruh the fact the BELLS triggered her on the show is a dead giveaway that they merged her with JonCon. He is the only guy in the books who has a bells related trauma, and who deeply regrets not being brutal and destroying a city when he had the chance to end the war. Dany is gonna spend most of Winds in Essos, going from city to city to finish up the liberation campaign Martin spent books developing (its hinted she will go to Volantis, Pentos and maybe even Braavos.) Like how tf is she gonna have time to do all that, and get to KL in time to destroy it? Unless JonCon and Young Griff get severely delayed in their conquest, its probably them who are gonna square off against a wildfire Cersei, and see half the city get nuked.
Even if he writes a sensible turn for Dany, he will be seen as another example of a man who elevates a woman only to destroy her afterwards. If he had finished the saga before the 2010s, he could have stood a chance at avoiding public criticism, now it's too late. He seems to be writing the female version of Che Guevara and good luck finding a general consensus about his influence.
Elio also thinks Bran will stay in his cave the rest of the books and not be King. Clearly he doesn’t know George’s plans. George does not discuss future books with Elio or future plot lines. Both sides have confirmed this
Tyrion killing his father doesn’t really make sense in the show. Why is Tyrion so protective over a woman that just tried to kill him? That scene doesn’t get as much criticism because the books give him a better justification. That’s probably how season eight would have been viewed if we had additional justification from the books.
Because people still consider season 4 to be one of the “good ones” despite the rot begun there with the topless Ramsay scene, this Tysha omission and Lady Stoneheart omission.
I believe George "always" intended for daenerys to turn bad. Many years ago in Not-a-Blog. he was commenting about all the people naming their babies after his characters. He was mostly elated... but oddly I seem to remember some hesitation with daenerys not negative but not fully positive. (I may be misremembering but this was many many yrs ago.)
Once i dreamed about George trolling us all. He had already written 5 new books in advance, far far far beyond the ending of the show, but never released them till then.
The double standards and hypocrisy within this fandom when it comes to dany is hilarious. Stannis, Jon, Robb and every other leader can torture and commit all the war crimes they want but they aren’t called mad. Jon who GRRM confirmed will be getting greyer and has dreams of beheading robb, thinks of beheading wildling children hostages and threatens to burn gilly and her child while holding her hand over fire, isn’t called mad
@@_AHY_ only dany gets called “mad” for doing something every other leader does. the fandom loves using season 8 as canon for her but rejects it when it comes to Jaime’s ending. the agenda is so obvious
@@nont18411 using Jon and Robb is right. Robb is a war criminal who committed all types of atrocities in the westerlands. Jon has rage blackouts, disturbing dreams and threatens innocent women and kids. He also has tortured many people and took off someone’s head for speaking against him. Yet it is dany people rush to call mad and he gets pardoned
Between intense writing sessions of WOW, he's probably enjoying his time finishing up the short story "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" in time for Christmas...2026. Can't wait for the next ASOIAF cookbook. I hope there are some exotic peach recipes.
I think a key factor to how we perceive Dany in the books is that we never get a POV interacting with her - the closest is Quentin and Barristan remembering interactions with her towards the end of ADWD after Dany has left Meereen, and they aren't the most... insightful POV characters... This is purposeful to give us a biased view of Dany, we're never given any other perspective on her actions, but this will change in the future books. As that happens we'll get her darker turn to more of a conqueror. This will naturally make us question her actions earlier than in the show. In the end I think it will be a bit ambiguous exactly what happened - is Dany mad? Justified? Just evil? Unjustified but only as brutal as many others in the series? I personally doubt GRRM will feature a mental break like in the show, and seeing some events through her POV will naturally give them a more sympathetic/understandable bent. That said, there will likely be other POVs and non-POV characters who believe Dany is mad, partly because of her father, partly because she is a woman, partly because of her actions. There will be others who think differently. We will need to weigh all of it up and make our own judgements on how we feel.
very interesting that crucifying slave masters is mentioned as an act that could make dany come off as a bit evil.... (being ruthless - a characteristic that george himself has said it's important for a leader to have) anyways i definitely cannot agree that the mistakes she makes as ruler are necessarily foreshadowing of her becoming evil. also i think it's clear that it's her character growth we're seeing when we transition from storm of swords to dance of dragons. so i don't think it's a matter of her being all of a sudden "not that evil". she was never evil to begin with.
It'll be interesting to come back to this in a few years, as I don't hear Elio confirming anything in this. Plus Elio said he thinks Bran will be staying in the cave awhile ago right? Title feels like clickbait. Dany is alright, story is slow but she's quite heroic in the books for her age and situation. For her to go mad in the last two would be weird and questionable looking at what she's been doing. Fighting slavery and all that just to go mad like, won't this condem Essos after her death? Slavery will come back, seems like an awful ending from GRRM
If you pull back and look at the story it starts to look, rather startingly, as a rearranged LotR. The Red God and Dragons are the shadow and flame we see the story focused on. The North with it's Ice Spiders looks oddly like an adapted version of Ungoliant, but with an equal role in narrative. Its almost like seeing a version of the story were Beleriand is caught between the two but from opposite sides. Also with both of the antagonistic forces fighting eachother over it. That Dany becomes more of a dark grey, what most would call a villain, makes a lot of sense. That said, there should be an equal and opposite on the other side and it still surprises me that no one expects it.
@@louyou6614 This is true, and worth keeping in mind. What I'd like to suggest is that you consider every theory you like about the Long Night and the Dawn Empire in the context of JRRT lore. I'm not suggesting a one to one, or that everything translates. The Long Night from Doriath's perspective. On day the light from the West suddenly went out (we know the trees were dead). Morgoth and Ungoliant suddenly cross the ice, the dark lord returns and Angband is turned out to ravage Beleriand. Then Feanor arrives with his sons on ships (the burning of the ships) to confront Morgoth. When they arrive the sun rises for the first time replacing the light lost when the trees died. In many ways the story of the Long Night in Westeros is the story of Doriath from the Grey King, Elu Thingol's perspective. The story of the Starks can make sense from both Thingol and Feanor's perspective and it's interesting trying to tease out how he's adapted it. The Dawn Empire. From the blood betrayal to a hero that brought light, the Dawn Empire sounds like story from Valanor's perspective. Because GRRM's story spends a lot of itself being a "I would have done it this way" we can make certain educated guesses about basic structure, though motivation and circumstances are vastly different. Other inspirations obviously exist as well. Because of this I often think it makes sense to consider the story from a common point many do in LotR Fandom. What would the story have been like if other characters had a/the ring. Imagine a version of LotR where Gandalf, Aragorn, or even Galadrial all had a ring. I think asoiaf functions like that What If scenario.
@BeteBlanc you know what man , this is the push I needed I soon as a finish clash , I will read the tolkien that is sitting my kindle for far too long , and come back to this comment if I remember Tolkien work I know the broad strokes of , but tbr the lore scare Me because it look like so much Anyways I liked your idea
In the books, when she came to Kings' Landing, Young Griff will already be there and the peoples will love him for freeing them from Cersei. It will make more sense for her to go berserk. There's absolutely zero Vampires in Twilight, some kind of weird demon who drink blood, shine in sunlight and bleed diamond, maybe. But no Vampires.
@@chamirus1 You know the one thing all the vampires ever created, except the Twilight ones, have in common. They're creatures of the night, they can have all the abilities you want, but that's the one they all share. On you're point of wyvern, good for you you've played D&D, but Georges Dragons are more physiological realistic.
Dany was always meant to be the primary villian in the story, this should be clear to anyone. The fulfilment of her character is "the conquerer", her words are "fire and blood" - what do you think that means? Her conquest parallels Robbs. The reader is meant to cheer on Robbs cause, see him the hero in his fight for justice, and in doing so, become blind to the pride and vainglory that develops in his character, which precipitates his fall. Then we then get a glimpse of the cost of the war via Arya, Brienne and Jamie as they travel through the war torn countryside. Death, grape, orphans etc. This is the fruit of war, and the authors moral lesson. It's meant to drive us to reflect on our previous naive support of Robb, his cause and war itself. This is what makes Feast so thematically important in the narrative. Dany's story follows the same arc. We see her first as an innocent victim, watch her rise to power, fall for her ideological justifications of war and cheer her on, as we did Robb. Do the ends jusify the means? This will be for the reader to question for themselves. George will absolutely show us the reality of what comes with being known as "the conqueror". And you can bet it wont be perceived as being a savior or a liberator - which are two entirely different things than conquest. Fire and blood. Death and destruction. This is what Dany brings. This is conquest. And if done correctly, she will be perhaps the greatest villain in all of fiction. Which will be magnified as people realize that she is a great villain precisely because many of the fans love her and supported her. An interesting shift from the evil for the sake of evil archetype. Want to know how tyrants take power and are loved, despite the bloodshed they inflict? Reflect on your support of Dany, the harbinger of death.
Of course you have a right to your opinion. That sed, I personally think you have a have a fundamental misunderstanding of one of the aspects of the books. That aspect being “duality”, something we see through parallel themes, arcs and characters. You talk about Robb and his war, about how we readers felt inclined to cheer for him and how we became blind to the horrors of war. That is all true. However it would be disingenuous to claim that Robb’s and Dany’s wars are similar in any way. War is horrible and deadly and should be avoided… unless there is no other way. Because for all war is horrible, it is not fundamentally bad much like a knife or a gun. Sometimes bad people need to be stopped and there are no other ways forward, sometimes the peace is a more horrible reality. In truth, often times things are not “black and white”, that is not to say there are no “black and white” situations of course. All this and more GRRM already knows for he himself sed he would have enlisted in the war against the nazis if he could. So while Robb’s war, like you sed, shows the horrific brutality of war, Dany’s shows the merciful side of it. That doesn’t mean Dany herself is the embodiment of mercy. She is a flawed character because GRRM who enjoys writing flawed beings, “the heart in conflict with itself” and all that.
The guy is 76 and looks like he hasnt done any physical activity his whole life. The probability of him dying in the next few years is enormous. We re never seeing these books
@@sardonically-inclined7645 that’s the thing though, Barristan will likely still die in the battle of mereen in a big noble sacrifice and Arya eventually will probably kill ‘a great other’ even if it’s not specifically the night king, the way George will write it however will not be nearly as weak as the show runners
I always believed Dany would eventually turn megalomaniacal. She is traumatized, sure, but she also has negative personality traits that indicate a Diva complex (Diva in the goddess definition AND the more modern definition). Her trigger for full-on Fire and Blood will likely be Aegon (Faegon) and his reception among the lowborn. Dany also has very unrealistic expectations of the Dothraki. They are raiders, not peacekeepers. Bringing them to Westeros would be a terrible idea. Dragons are also a terrible idea. The Maesters were right to destroy them.
@@HizzayLoves Dragons are nukes, as GRR Martin has stated. They are terrible beings born of generations of suffering and death. And I doubt the White Walkers will be quintessentially "evil". Martin has stated that they are not evil, but are simply a different form of life. Your simplistic binary "good vs evil" perspective is not supported by Martin's "gray" world.
@@HizzayLoves the series is A Song of Ice and Fire, based on Frost's iconic poem about the end of the world. Will it end in Ice or Fire? Guess who represents the Fire. DRAGONS.
Idk, to me it seems if George is gonna turn one of the most moral (by asoiaf standards) characters in the story into a psychotic super villain it just seems like there's no point to the story. 99% of the world is already pretty evil and now even Dany, the breaker of chains is to? At this point there's nothing to root for in the side of the living so I hope the Others kill everybody. I can see Dany causing massive collateral damage as an indirect result of her going mad queen but i dont see her directly killing innocents for fun like she did in the show. I can see it working if she does this BEFORE the Others invade and sort of cleans up her act before then going off to face them.
That fact that you and so many others consider Dany the most moral in the story is frankly laughable and a notable example of the delusions of the mass man.
"I can see how this could happen" does not mean "I confirm", you know. It's clear you hate Daenerys, but regardless if like her or not, basic language comprehension is a good thing to practice
3:45 she orders the torture of a merchant’s daughters so that the merchant will give information about the death of some Unsullied (at Skahaz’s suggestion) which imo is a lot worse than torturing the person who actually has the information you want. she does walk back her brutality some in Dance but to me this instance does come across similar to show she is in Storm.
So, it seems better for us not to have it finished. Otherwise we are getting GoT ending, which was the actually supposed ending all the way. Ok, George, just go for Dunk and Egg.
I'll be honest; if the endgame is Evil Dany, my desire to read the final books just made a sharp downturn. I mean, I don't believe he's ever going finish writing TWoW, let alone ADoS, but now I'm almost relieved about that rather than disappointed. We don't need another voice talking about how there's no such thing as a competent female ruler. To be fair, a lot of the male rulers we meet in this universe are also depicted as bad, but NO female rulers are ever portrayed as competent. They can be the power behind the scenes like Olenna Tyrell, or be warriors like Brienne and Arya, but wield political power in their own right? Nah, they can't do that without being weak or evil. Can't have this fantasy universe with dragons and years-long seasons be "unrealistic" by having womenfolk in power governing well./sarcasm
I think the worst thing for me personally is either how Jon is portrayed in the later seasons, or the new small council at the end. Nobody can defend that small council it makes zero sense. Brianne as lord commander of the kings guard? She pledged herself to renly, he died under her watch, pledged herself to Catelyn oh she’s dead too. Another problem I have is it feels like characters have massive plot armor in the later seasons. I’m sure someone’s going to argue against that, but GRRM writes stories that are more realistic in a way where it’s not always going to be a happy ending and even if the good guy wins theres going to be a cost.
Interesting. I feel like I saw something about how the show originally was going to have Dany accidentally set off wildfire, then they changed it to her burning Lannister soldiers, but then they didn't feel like that warranted Jon killing her so they made the final change to her going mad. To me, this implies (and I haven't seen the interview so I could be wrong) that the show was making more things up for its ending than we thought. My perspective was that people were too quick to accept "the show got the broad strokes but missed the buildup" and in fact things like Daenerys' turn were made up (maybe the truth of it is that Jon kills Dany in the book for the good of the realm, and that's all George told them but we don't know the context? Plus Preston has talked about foreshadowing in the books for Jon killing Dany before)
According to the interview with Colbert, GRRM said in 2022 that he had 1,200 pages, already longer than Dance. Elio Garcia theory sounds good to me, George could just release what he has, but the novel would not end where he wanted, so he is gonna keep going until it finishes where he wants the story to finish and release a novel so big that is going to need to be sold in two books. Like Storm and Dance are sold in some places and editions.
The problem is not George can’t find the time to write. He simply doesn’t know how to tie up all the loose knots and make them plausible together. If the show’s ending was his original outline for the story, we all saw how crappy it turned out and he knows it. So he went back to the drawing board and is trying to make the story coherent again.
Why do people not like Elio and Linda? They rose from having a fan blog to George trusting them to keep his continuity. Is it an "Why him, it should've been me!" type of deal?
@@Zhohan- Translation: she is rude and obnoxious, and also racist AF. And has tons of internalized misogyny and calls women in the fandom names, Ironically, she hates Cersei, the canon misogynist woman, which would be OK if she weren't doing things like denying that Cersei was raped by Robert.
I'm not an expose channel so I won't go into too much detail, even when I do my own video, but if you're curious google up "A Storm of Hate: the Problem with Linda Antonsson" and it'll be a watchers on the wall article.
My interpretation of both the books and the show was that Dany is only this noble figure because of the people she surrounds herself with. She's not naturally a gifted leader who makes good decisions. She needs Jorah and Barristan and Missandei and so on. When she loses all of those people, she is easily corruptible and makes very bad decisions. To me, the tragedy of the show isn't that her turn to evil wasn't well-established prior to The Bells. After all, Varys thinks she's nuts. Tyrion is unsure about her. Jon is unsure about her. We as the audience can see that these trusted characters think she might be off. I mean - hell - she considers herself a freedom fighter who is entitled to rule cities she's invaded that are very much an allegory for middle eastern ones in our own society. No, the tragedy of Dany's arc in the show is that her dependence on her council isn't spelled out as clearly as it should be and all of those characters that die (Barristan, Missandei, Jorah, etc) are bungled in such an epic way that the audience forgets how crucial they were to her healthy perspective when her turn during The Bells finally happens.
I fully believe that Dany destroys Kings Landing, the real difference is most likely the reason for it. She probably burns it to stop a plague but gets framed as mad.
@@leehunts4327 I think the opposite. That she destroys King’s Landing and saves humanity to redeem herself (probably by offering herself as a sacrifice for Light-Bringer).
it's not just that it was rushed, or even that lovingly burning the entire city while ignoring the red keep makes no sense. there's also the way that 1) two out of three female rulers are presented as psychopathic killers, and 2) the worst of them is the one who was previously actually trying to make the world a better place.
It would be very easy to write Dany as *not evil*. Just have her destroy KL by accidentally igniting the wildfire caches. I believe this was D&D's original ending before they decided Mad Queen would be more dramatic.
I was more upset with Littlefinger and Lord Varys not making it to the end. I always felt those two were playing chess, and everybody else was just a part on the board.
Daenerys becoming evil is just so laaaaaaaaame. If she tries to take the Iron Throne and then accidentally blows up the city, and then sacrifices herself and her dragons to stop the white walkers, maaaaaybe, but her story arc ending in her going mad is just so unfulfilling and boring. For a book and a world all about gray characters to end with someone like Dany becoming squarely "evil" is just not a good arc at all.
@aidenignition exactly, especially as throughout ASOIAF, Fire & Blood, and Egg & Dunk series GRRM sows sone doubt over the whole 'madness' of Targs not being exactly that commonplace as its made out to be. Idk it is a little lame and tired...
There's a great book called the War of Art. The whole thing is about the creative's battle against Resistance. Resistaance is you getting in the way of yourself. I'm too tired, I hate the chapter I just wrote, I'll do it tomorrow. It's all just Resistance rationalizing itself, according to the author. Externalizing it that way is a great way to see when it's happening and just do it anyway. Clearly, this is a life long battle. Even Martin, a man who's been writing longer than most of us have been alive, struggles with it.
@OfficialRedTeamReview I think another major issue is that he just doesn't care like he used to. I meant it more as something we creatives all need to be weary of, rather than a defense of Martin. Even greats can get sucked down the rabbit hole of excuses and bargaining. He may not even be fully aware of all the reasons it's taking so damn long. Again, not an excuse, just an observation.
Literally my idea was she should ne burning the city, either in a small show of force but triggers the wildfire and everyone blames her regardless. Most of them have never seen a dragon or dragons fire, and the ground exploding with wildfire would be enough to convince the people in universe that she’s evil and that’s all that matters. IMO Her story should be tragic because she’s literally killing people constantly, but because it was an accident showing that literally everyone loses when dragons are involved helping it solidify that anyone with a WMD is too many with a WMD
I’d be fine with dany destroying kings landing if it actually makes sense why she would do it, Jon snow breaking up with her and her winning the battle with Cersei leading to the KL destruction didn’t make any sense
Preston saying GRRM "could just easily have written 8 books" is priceless. This know it all just runs his mouth like he is inside GRRMs head or knows the guy at all, and fans lick it up.
@@BDnevernind I love when people write fanfiction about Preston Jacobs as if they know him lmao. George allowing himself more books would certainly speed up his writing process as he would be able to commit to his more natural tendencies to write in a long-winded way and be limiting himself less/less rewrites.
Yo dany being flawed charachter Dany being a child and doing mistaken Dany being always selfless but her only selfish act end up horrifically Dany falling victim of her flaws Dany realising what she is doing Dany horrified what she did Dany battering her inner flaws and redeeming herself in the long night Dany interesting charachter rather than a messiah perfect person and doing mistakes and working on redemption rather than just doing constantly good actions because no one dan do good actions all the time I love dany
To be fair, it made no sense for SHOW Dany to turn evil. Book Dany, to me, could go either way. She is way more messed up, since she's still only 14 or 15 at this point.
I feel like in the show.. dani n Jon's growth seemed to be paralleled. They were both helping others and were chosen as leaders. I just knew they'd be together at the end. Boy.. was I wrong 🙄😂
The next book should wrap up the fall of house Bolton and Frey and because of that be called “A time for wolves” it shouldn’t be called the winds of winter because I don’t see how the white walkers would be coming south so soon causing the long night.
lmfao, calling another writer a hack while praising George is irony 101. George is a fucking hack, maybe he can earn back some respect when he either finishes the series or at least admits he gave up long ago and will never finish.
5:06 Preston, the show did build Dany up as a heroine, but it also portrayed her as having a penchant for brutality and bloodlust. She talked about destroying entire cities, massacred people, etc.
Still much more heroic than the other characters whom they tried to portray as good and just like Sansa and Arya, who had shown an obvious psychopathic tendency.
But her heroic actions were freeing slaves and being literally a protector of the common people for the longest time, which destroyed any throw away line about burning cities. Dany was built as a liberator, not a conqueror, while in the books it's the same, there's less fanfair when she's doing the extremely good deeds.
At this point, even if TWOW is released, I have no intention of reading it. I don't remember the fine details and minor characters anymore, and im NOT investing time in rereading the entire series... ESPECIALLY because we know he will never finish ADOS (and even if he does, it won't be the last book.. theres just too much to story to wrap up).
When it comes to stories there are no bad ideas. I don't have a problem with any of the concepts that were explored in the later seasons (arya killing the night king really pushes it tho), but GOD was the execution bad
I asked about that and from what I heard the reason he does it is to illustrate characters who don't have fan art yet. Not defending it, just the excuse/reason I heard.
This guy was way more honest about what's going on with the Winds of Winter than anything GRRM has ever said. GRRM has even indicated that the fans are the ones with the problem, not him, when we all know better.
ironically in the behind the scenes book to the show, many of the writers felt that they had adequately portrayed that she wasn't the good guy and were confused as to why people cheered her on.
@@OfficialRedTeamReview After thinking about it quite a lot, I do think it is even true to a certain point. What I just recently recognised is the Shows death of Xaro Xoan Daxos and Eroeh - she has them locked alive in an unopenable vault. If you think about it, that is _really_ messed up, and far worse then just killing them as revenge. Similarly, Burning Mirri Maz Duur _alive_ is far worse than just killing her. The show just failed in portraying these acts as what they are - showing a certain indulgence in cruelty that other characters who do "dark" things (Arya, Jon, etc. who do their fair share of murdering) do not.
@@LarthVArya baking people into a pie and feeding them to their father is more “messed up” than anything Dany did but y’all hold Dany to an impossibly high standard lmao
@@Glamuel I am actually not - since we have no incentive the baking took place while the victims were still alive. So while it is more disturbing in consideration of things like the taboo of consuming human flesh, it is technically less cruel. What happens after death is basically irrelevant...
I say Daenerys getting too emotional was too realistic because it's like that thing where oh this liter is supposed to lead us into a new age and then everybody feels betrayed because she didn't do the thing they said they would
Danys downfall directly ties into the Targaryen prophecy. How she is the Uber special child and that means HER vision must be true no matter what and that she must be of importance. That’s what I think HotD is trying to do with the story. Is that the divine right of kings justifies genocide. It’s like how Paul Atriedes becomes the hero and causes a literal galactic civil war and genocide leaving the empire to a son who became a tyrant for several thousand years and has the memories of several thousand galactic level dickhead noblemen in his head trying to “save” the universe in “the only way I know how” yeah because the only data you’ve gathered are from scheming rich political dickheads not actual common people. I think it’s going to be about how the narcissistic tendencies of Targaryens are their defining characteristic. how being proclaimed the savior and ultimate paragon of the racial superiority of monstrous hellish sorcerers who enslaved millions.
Check out the full episode here:
www.patreon.com/redteamreview
or
th-cam.com/users/XIIICarminejoin
Even IF they hit certain bullet points that are in the book, they were so rushed as to be unintelligible, and that's ENTIRELY the showrunners' fault, not the viewers. The entire complaint is "this was absurdly rushed", they can't lecture us on "oh well you should have seen this coming". --- "well if they didn't rush it, it would have been good".....well, it WAS rushed.
@@thedragondemands5186 exactly, like a decent amount of the plot points in later seasons were things that I think make sense on paper in broad strokes, but were massively rushed and came out of nowhere for the show. Some stuff is obviously BS like the whole going beyond the wall to get a zombie thing or Jaime claiming he doesn’t care about innocent people. However, things like bran becoming an all knowing husk, Jon falling in love with and eventually killing Dany, Dany becoming more violent and the people of Westeros rejecting her, Varys betraying Dany, and Sansa being the one to take down Littlefinger all make perfect sense as progressions of their character, especially in the books where major and minor changes make these progressions more smooth. They were just massively rushed
@@nolangerrans6083 my point is there is no “just” to “massively rushed”
How show handled Daenerys
Season 1 - Season 8 episode 3: “Good girl”
Season 8 episode 4 onwards: “Bad pussy”
I got into an argument with someone in some TH-cam comments on a random video where they said all the end season stuff was just made up and was nowhere near what GRRM had planned. instead of just saying it was many of his plans and they were just rushed, like I had been arguing the whole time with them. I don't know where they would get that from that D&D just made it all up out of thin air
@@nont18411 indeed
It's been 4847 days since aDwD
13 years 3 months
@@haymaker710 the Night King came to power, ruled and was deposed in less time 💃
big if true
If he wrote half a page per day, he would've it finished by now.
my brother was born 3 days after it was released and he is now in high school
I still have major doubts George intends Dany to go mad. Why write such a compassionate, self-reflective and tenacious character only to have her “go mad” in the last two books? It’s not enough time. It would also send an incredibly reactionary message to have the former slave bride who campaigns against slavery be the final big bad, there’s no way to separate her becoming a villain from her arc about ending slavery. The message will be, “don’t challenge the status quo or abusive power structures or you’ll go crazy! Especially if you’re an overly emotional woman!” These implications would make me lose respect for George if he did this, even if it’s “well-written.”
Also, characters in the books talk about Dany being an inspirational figure too. Dany is a perceptive character, and she never describes seeing 13 year old children wearing tokars in Astapor.
Look , she isnt about to go insane , probably just sunken cost fallacy +yearning for home + a fucking kid she is + entitlement put in by vizzy about westeros , she is going to perhaps ho Haywards temporarily loosing herself in her conquest wich with dragons is ugly work
Then realise after one specially horrible act what she is doing , maybe someone death , or kl going boom , and go back to her true values and redeem herself by being instrumental to beat the long nights
I have the feeling she will burn the Thorne and melt herself as the turning point and going back to herself
Because since the beginning dany plan is kinda .....tethering the morality , conquest I believe , and imposing your rule , you as a person to a community of ethnically different people is just awfull , she don't realise it because she is kind and compassionate but a feudal charachter .
And I like this arc because dany have flaws and she succomb to them then battle them off , because in life if you don't keep yourself in check you get bad let alone if you are currently getting wiirshiped
Also dany so far I read in the books want westeros because it's her home , tbr she is such a perfect exemple off the plight of children refugees , and feel entilted to it , and think she can fo a better job , but nowhere she said something about breaking the wheel yet , her claim to westeros is mad aerys , the targaryen ruling are the status quo , she live 5o years , perhaps have a child , I do t believe she is fully barren m and we are back to the situation before the story , just the names of the lords will change , starks replaced by Mormons maybe for example
Her having a total win is if you have blood of kings and nukes and not scum of the earth , you have the right to put the country to blood to get your RIGHT to rule people
The best ending is an oligarchy or rome senate situation , and no targ , dany or jon or young griff , need the throne
If dany don't die in the long night , I can see her finally founding the red doored house
I also don't see jon and dany being enemies , I don't like them as lovers either , but I see them as a great complicity potential
@@Glamuelbecause she don't consider herself a child and neither are the other 13 years old for her children
@@Glamuel kinda weird of her to mention the lower age limit of people to kill being 12 when she orders the unsullied (still her slaves at this point) to kill all the slavers. 16 is the age of adulthood in westeros and even that is despicably young to be killing. i don't really think it's a madness though, just some vile middle ages fantasy crap they thought was normal
This does not confirm Dany’s “mad turn”; in fact Elio claims Dany ordered the death of 13 year olds, when in fact what she said was “harm no child under twelve” and is the ONLY character to say the words “harm no child”.
Dany is in fact much MORE heroic in the books. She was not evil by any stretch.
Lastly, GRRM wrote ASOIAF all by himself and does not have a co-writer.
GRRM confirmed three things:
-The twist with Hodor
-The burning of Shireen
-Bran being King
That’s it.
If Dany is a “mad queen” it would be repetitive and ultimately stale, because Cersei is already a “mad queen”. I get you dislike this character but to diminish GRRM’s work by pretending he had a co-writer for ASOIAF, and that ANYONE other than GRRM can “confirm” anything other than their own opinion is a bit out of line.
its true heroic killing civilians since you dont kill their kids, i desagreed about she becoming a mad queen, but she is far from heroic, heroes dont burn people for raging
@ killing a bunch of random civilians was way out of character, and there’s no confirmation that absolute trash fire is the planned ending for the books. No one knows except GRRM.
@honeylxxiii6683 when she said harm no children, she killed civs qith 12 or more
@@RamosAjala Correct me if im wrong, haven’t read the books in a while, but she sed and im paraphrasing:
”kill all the masters but harm no one under 12”
That doesn’t mean kill everyone OVER 12 and it definitely doesn’t mean kill civilians. Cuz she sed kill all the MASTERS - and there are no innocent civilians who are masters - and don’t kill any children INCLUDING the children of the slavers.
And to be fair, those over 12 are often considered to be at the cusp of their adulthood in asoiaf. That thought process is as bad but also culturally acceptable as Ned killing that Nights Watch deserter and bringing his very young son with him. Its all about the context of the world they live.
At what part in storm is dany evil? How does Dany killing slavers and freeing enslaved people make her evil or mad? Especially coming from a slave herself
Neoliberalism moment for Preston
In the books, she also kills free people (not slavers) from astapor, every man using a Tokar with 12 year older (acessory used by free pp of the city), than the woman got rapped and kids got alone and became slaves by the butcher (after she leaves the city).
She also kills people from meereen (inocent?, maybe), trying to punish tha Harpy, "i'll let the dragon decide if your are inocent"
@@RamosAjala tokars are a symbol of being a slave master in Astapor. Could you imagine if Tywin (or any war commander in Westeros) had said "harm no children under 12" while sacking King's Landing? BTW children under 12 are murdered and raped in the sacking.
Dany was 14 and had no way of knowing what would happen in Astapor after she left. Additionally, the books make no mention women being raped or children becoming slaves. Instead it says "The Butcher King had restored slavery to Astapor, the only change being that the former slaves were now the masters and the former masters were now the slaves."
She never kills any innocent ppl in Merreen
She literally never says anything like this in books "i'll let the dragon decide if your are inocent" Where you got this quote from, I have no idea.
IDK where you got any of this from, but it's not the books.
@@RamosAjalathat scene where Dany says “I’ll let the dragon decide” NEVER HAPPENED IN THE BOOKS. It would be so lovely if people would actually read the books before making comments like that. Dany is not evil and the only people who think she is are the ones wringing their hands for slavers. This is the only fandom I’ve ever seen defend slavery this hard but ffs stop lying about what happened in the books.
Preston answered this directly; she orders 12 year old's to be executed. Yeah they were from slave owning families, but 12 year olds aren't generally regarded to have the amount of agency that would make execution a moral thing to do (even in the story's world).
Calling Danny evil isn't accurate, but her actions since the ending of AGoT are a violently mixed bag morally. I don't see how readers can think she's supposed to be a good-guy-fighting-evil character.
D&D's "different philosophical view" was "show off these performances and these faces" -- they do not HAVE an "interpretation" or "spin" other than "show off the actors to ride the coat tails of celebrity culture". Why does everyone keep overthinking this?
As a Dany fan who hates her Mad Queen arc to the core, I'll try to explain myself here. George made it clear in his first outline in 1993 that Dany was a threat to Westeros, but to me it always seemed more like a culture clash, Dany conquering Westeros with the wild Dothraki hordes and the Unsullied. The fact that she goes mad is what bothers me, not that she's a threat in general. I also think season 8 has twisted the chronology of events. It was always clear that the final battle would be against the Others. So I think Dany invades Westeros first and wreaks havoc without knowing what she's doing because she's not familiar with the culture, not because she's gone mad. She is then hated by the people because she invaded their land with foreign barbarians and then she gets a Redemption Arc in the War against the Others.
That sounds a lot more traditional than GRRM's narratives and themes typically are.
Nah I'm pretty sure the final person to sit the Iron Throne won't be decided until after the fight with the Others and it'll be a battle for the throne.
@@King_Mac80 I'm not sure. The show did it that way, but it feels like the Throne is a secondary concern - the book themes are screaming out that titular Game of Thrones is all a distraction what should be an existential battle for survival.
Resolving the Throne after suggests that is the real/important conflict,.when I feel like the message is "it doesn't matter who's ass is in the chair if everyone freezes to death".
@@King_Mac80and at that point, I'd wager the continent will be ravaged, and the 'council' we saw will be about deciding how to best pick up the pieces, not about any genuine ambition for the throne. Brann makes sense as King because as the Three Eyed Crow, he has access to all the world's knowledge, and would likely know how best to rebuild the country after the Long Night. It seems silly that after spending books emphasizing how the struggle for feudal power is meaningless, Martin now reverts back to having his characters end the story by struggling for power yet again.
@@King_Mac80 In the Outline he says that his overall plan is to resolve everything in one huge climax which makes more sense to me
1. Daenerys is obviously heroic in the books too. The show didn't paint her heroic, Martin himself did it and confirmed it. 2. What children did she torture or kill intentionally?
Dunno. After thinking about it a lot, I recognised that she shows a certain indulgence in cruelty/vengeance that other characters do not, despite say Arya, Jon or so being responsible in their own fair share of killing, rightful or not. But burning somebody alive? Having the daughters of a suspect tortured before him? Having everybody over twelve be killed? If you think about it, none of the other "good" characters have done things on that level.
@@LarthVshe's also one of the few characters who constantly considers the cost of war, makes concessions to make peace (even when it clearly disadvantages her, and makes her more vulnerable), worries over the common folk and their wellbeing, actively goes out to care for the sick and dying herself, and most importantly, routinely questions her own decisions, mental acuity and wellbeing. She is perceptive for her age, clever and compassionate, and does understand her position surprisingly well (so many people say she is lovestruck with Daario and trusts him explicitly, when she repeatedly mentions she knows what he is, knows he only wants her as a Queen, doesnt love her, and that relying and trusting him would spell dissaster). When she does resort to violence or threats of violence it's in defense of others, in service of ending the institution of slavery. Miri Maz Durr is the exception for this, and idk about you, but if someone murdered my child in your womb, and left me barren, I'd say an extreme and murderous response is not out of the norm.
Like why is it that feudal Lords resorting to common punishments is accepted as part of the times and culture, but when she behaves in the same way, she gets judged more harshly? EVEN when she renegs on her decision, and recognizes the pitfalls of using said punishment, she is still treated like a monster. She's scolded for not immediately recognizing the violent nature of war and for not ending it right away, and for even daring to try methods to mitigate it to best of her ability (which yeah, sure, a 14yo pregnant child bride with no support system or protection, whose power is entierly reliant on her 30yo rapist husband liking her can 100% command the Dothraki to abandon ALL PLUNDER AND RAPE cause it's wrong. And don't give me the whole he is going to war for her, he is going to war cause Robert attempted to assassinate his son in the books. When Dany asked him to do it previously, he dismissed her)
She is not perfect by any stretch of the word, and has made mistakes, but she is still not the worst evil the world has ever seen. People take jer entitlement from the show and project it onto her book self, even when Martin uses the house with the red door as a reoccurring motif in her storyline as a symbol for what she truly wants-a home, a family, a sense of belonging, while the throne is something she explicitly pursues out of a sense of duty for her heritage as the last Targaryen. And she still delays her pursuit of it in favor of ensuring stability in a country where she knows she doesn't belong in, and people repeatedly urge her to leave (Quentyn is literally the embodiment of her ticket out of Meereen, as are Xaro's ships, and she reject them all cause she knows she is needed there to protect the freed men)
@@LarthV I think the main issue a lot of people have with the 'Mad Dany plot' is that what is shown and the show runners saying were clear indicators of Dany being 'mad'... just aren't. Some say it goes back to her brother's death, but that man had abused her, sold her, threatened to cut her unborn child out and kill her moments before. Is it mad not to look away when he's killed? Most would say no. Having the masters crucified after having to follow a path to the city where the masters had child slaves crucified all the way there as a message to her... is that mad? Most would also say no. Characters such as Stannis have characters (including his and his wife's family) killed and burned alive.. no one calls Stannis 'mad'. No one called Robert B. mad for allowing a butcher's boy to be killed. No one called Tywin Lannister mad for having the Targarian kids butchered or any of the other deaths he ordered. Dany already heeded several people's counsel and accepted to meet Cersei on 'peace terms' and it lead to Cersei's betrayal. She sent no soldiers. Set traps which murdered Dany's friends, her dragon, and it's Cersei that filled King's Landing with human shields. What in her mind would make her think that those bells weren't another trick that would lead to the death of her last dragon? Of her men on the ground?
@@Skypirateinc I dont think we should take anything that happened on the show as gospel cause Show Dany and Book Dany are two different characters. Show Dany is zapped of her compassion, political acumen and perceptiveness in favor of making her an entitled badass who only cares about the throne. Her book counterpart's reoccurring desire is to have a home, a family and a sense of belonging, and continues to pursue the throne cause she feels it's her duty as the last Targaryen. She threatens people less than her show counterpart, doesn't feel entitled to love or gratitude, routinely questions herself, and her capabilities, and dreams of abandoning her life as a Queen to live like a normal peasant girl. She understands people fear her, and that dragons do not inspire love, and is under no delusion that she is universally beloved. She also feels extremely guilty for failing the people under her protection and feels undeserving of the devotion the freed men have toward her, cause 'what kind of Mother lets her children starve and die?' Hell, she delays her conquest of Westeros specifically so she can ensure the well being of those she freed from slavery. Her book self tries to compromise with slavers, even though its abundantly clear they're lying to her, and will assassinate her at the first opportunity so they can reinstate slavery everywhere. But she does it cause she thinks she has no choice, and the people need this peace-even though its not even a peace.
Show Dany is barely the same character. She flip flops between delusion about being loved and entitlement for the crown, stays in Meereen more so because she wants to learn governance, less than protect the freedmen, and somehow develops entitled beliefs about being the chosen one when her book self doesn't even know about the Azor Ahai prophecy much less that she fulfilled the requirements, per the Red priests. And still despite the lackluster characterization, the show runners framed her as more heroic and badass consistently, even when she supposedly was doing bad shit. Only to then turn around and go full on Niemöller and compare her going after the institution of SLAVERY as being comparable to her randomly nuking a city full of innocent women and children. Literally what was the point of her story? Don't try to change the status quo, dont try to end slavery, or you will end up as a mad tyrant? How is that even comparable to the Nazis. It was not only lackluster but insulting to people's intelligence.
@@TheaTheGenius Please not that I _personally_ think that most of all she is an abandoned, abused child, and I actually pitty her a lot.
And what I said is _not_ to take away any of her abundant good qualities. And by all means, she is still _better_ than most of the show or book characters (Stannis, Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, Aeron, let alone people like Ramsay or Euron). All I was noting is that there is a certain streak that can lead down a very dark path if not controlled properly, and the circumstances can reduce this control...
I think that George is even a little embarrassed because he already knows it is impossible to finish it in two books and that at this point he knows he is looking very disorganized and at the same time he does not want to commit to any more ASOIAF books
I believe this. The man realized he has to make more books in order to close the story properly and the thought of making more huge ass books is discouraging
@@theboy1625especially considering the sheer logistics of the story, getting everyone interacting in ways that don’t stuff with everything else.
@@ItsButterBean1020 yeah I think this story might be cooked
@@ItsButterBean1020 oof yes. As much as being a gardener has served him, it's also screwed him over immensely. There is no way he can finish for example Dany's arc in Essos in Winds alone, because there is so much shit for her to do. That's not even mentioning everyone else who might require an even more complex resolution (we just started getting to know Euron, and from the little we have seen of him, dude is poised to be a villain of Eldritch proportions). That's not even mentioning Faegon, the throne, Cersei, Jamie, Brann, Stannis and freaking Jon. We will likely never get the books, and even if George gives us the broad strokes ending before he finishes them, there is no guarantee the ending he initially planned is the ending that will match the gardening he did most recently.
@@TheaTheGenius all of this you mentioned is material for three big books alone, without counting new plotlines he may want to add like the measter conspiracy or the lore around the white walkers
I think young griff getting removed from
The story hardcore hurt dany’s turn. If Griff was there the spiral that she didn’t free her kingdom
Bran being the king of stories was one of the stupidest endings I've ever experienced.
Yet George told the actor that's how the character's story ends.
Hmm...
@@OfficialRedTeamReview I think literally everything that happened in the show at the end was at the ultimate direction of George - I think George himself has effectively confirmed as much - but that reality won't automatically make some of the character endings in the books palatable to large parts of the fandom.
Dany is if anything a drop in the ocean here. The fanonisation/headcanoning of, for example, Stannis, is even more extreme. His fanbase will go absolutely nuts when Shireen happens.
The fact that it's been thirteen years has not helped matters here remotely; people have developed and then become entrenched in their own headcanons without canon direction.
When/if we get a new book there will be some BIG backlashes.
Read the fisher king theory and come back tho , bran is written and is intended as a sort of king arthur figure as per george words and it is very book foreshadowed
@@louyou6614 I'am aware of it
@@louyou6614 never going to read the books (for a bunch of reasons but the biggest one being Martin is going to die before he finishes them). I’m just talking about the show.
The perfect impetus for Dany to have a final mental break would of course be for her to discover that she is merely a dragonseed and that her driving sense of entitlement to the Iron Throne is based on a lie.
I just watched the interview and he DID NOT confirm Dany’s turn
I too watched it and you're wrong. He literally said and I'm quoting him:
"for many people it felt clumsy and rushed and maybe if it had not been clumsy and rushed and had played out at a pace more like how George intended it might've worked better. For example Dany's turn. I think it's stupid as hell that a bunch of bells would make her go genocidal but I've always said, her final chapter in dance of dragons, is not a positive chapter.... So
I can see that that is an aspect of the story that George has intended"
He noted Dave & Dan rushing the pace, criticized one specific part, Dany's turn, and said that George intended that. It's also widely known that Dave & Dan got the ending story beats *from* George so....you put 2 and 2 together and well...here we are. Obviously Elio is not going to spoil anything but, in that moment, he kinda alluded to it.
@@OfficialRedTeamReview he said he could see it happen. Not remotely close to confirming. Elio does not know George’s end plans
@@jimboslice6367 You mean the guy who has private communications with George often, has worked with him before, is the man's fact checker, and whom George has confided in several times(the lunch they had where george complained to him about HotD S2) isn't privy to the end game story beats of the series?
lol okay if you say so
@@OfficialRedTeamReview you understand English right? Read your own damn quote you just posted of Elio. He’s basing his opinion on an already published chapter. Nowhere does he say he knows the ending or future plot lines
@@jimboslice6367 do you understand english? Carmine pretty much spelled it out for you but you're so up the dany fanclub you can't imagine anything else. its quite obvious Elio can't give out spoilers and is, clearly, alluding to it.
Dunno doesn't sound like he confirmed it at all to me. I find it hard to see Dany making it to KL before JonCon/YG and Cersei fight it out. Cersei is the Mad Queen and JonCon is a ticking time bomb.
Dany will not care about YG being king because that poor boy will die, the cyvasse game with Tyrion gives that away imo. She will hear about her nephew and be happy for family only for her to arrive late.
Personally tired of the Mad Queen/Women in the Attic trope, even though Cersei has a great buildup she's Aerys 2.0 at this point. After everything making Dany go mad, Bran be evil or whatever, Arya losing her humanity etc all of these theories would be so depressing and feel off for GRRM. Someone that loves dreamers and those that fight for change. Someone who gave up going home and married for peace to try and help people going mad is yuck ngl.
Robert Jordan sadly devolved into incredible long-windedness after he became successful. It was only once he was diagnosed with cancer that he started tightening up the story.
If GRRM had written two books in the last 13 years then he'd still have two more books to write. But we'd all be a bit happier about it, something is better than nothing after all.
I wrote a comment earlier and it seems to be gone :( Maybe it got deleted by Carmine, hopefully not, but TLDR:
I hate the Dany turns mad because 1) it's too late for that even in the books 2) it's a cope out and strips Dany of her agency 3) it's a stale trope: the heroine/female lead goes mad/crazy and has to be put down like a dog by the male hero/her lover. George is better than that.
I prefer Dany just going full conqueror, which means getting her hands dirty, like she did in Storm but this time on a dragon. I want her to do ruthless things, all for the sake of the throne, a breaking bad arc sort of stuff.
Lol buddy, if you didn't say anything racist or sexist that TH-cam's comment automod would pick up then you're fine. if i delete your comment, you'll know.
@@OfficialRedTeamReview odd then, I basically said what I said there, well, nevermind, that's all, don't heckle me Carmine 😭
@@V_i_vi_an Booooooo vivian, boooooo
Dumb and Dumber gave Jon Connington's story to Dany. That doesn't mean she won't turn batshit, but if so it'll be different.
One can hope
Bruh the fact the BELLS triggered her on the show is a dead giveaway that they merged her with JonCon. He is the only guy in the books who has a bells related trauma, and who deeply regrets not being brutal and destroying a city when he had the chance to end the war.
Dany is gonna spend most of Winds in Essos, going from city to city to finish up the liberation campaign Martin spent books developing (its hinted she will go to Volantis, Pentos and maybe even Braavos.) Like how tf is she gonna have time to do all that, and get to KL in time to destroy it? Unless JonCon and Young Griff get severely delayed in their conquest, its probably them who are gonna square off against a wildfire Cersei, and see half the city get nuked.
🤔
she won’t go “batshit” give this dull storyline up to god
Even if he writes a sensible turn for Dany, he will be seen as another example of a man who elevates a woman only to destroy her afterwards. If he had finished the saga before the 2010s, he could have stood a chance at avoiding public criticism, now it's too late. He seems to be writing the female version of Che Guevara and good luck finding a general consensus about his influence.
Elio also thinks Bran will stay in his cave the rest of the books and not be King.
Clearly he doesn’t know George’s plans. George does not discuss future books with Elio or future plot lines. Both sides have confirmed this
Tyrion killing his father doesn’t really make sense in the show. Why is Tyrion so protective over a woman that just tried to kill him? That scene doesn’t get as much criticism because the books give him a better justification. That’s probably how season eight would have been viewed if we had additional justification from the books.
Because people still consider season 4 to be one of the “good ones” despite the rot begun there with the topless Ramsay scene, this Tysha omission and Lady Stoneheart omission.
What good is a garden if it's abandoned?
"So what good is a f*ckin' machine gun when it's out of ammo?" - Eminem
I believe George "always" intended for daenerys to turn bad. Many years ago in Not-a-Blog. he was commenting about all the people naming their babies after his characters. He was mostly elated... but oddly I seem to remember some hesitation with daenerys not negative but not fully positive. (I may be misremembering but this was many many yrs ago.)
@@maliciousone5665 he wrote fire and blood to emphasize the difference between dany and her ancestors so no
@@flowersbyjisoo exactly people want her to turn mad for no reason and it’s just annoying when all that build up is for Cersei to turn crazy
@@ACinemafanatic they think her going “mad” is subversive when it’s the exact opposite and would be the same tired redundant Targaryen ending
Elio and Linda are great. It's too bad they both wouldn't go on this stream. The potential for an argument between Carmine and Linda is worth it
Were they asked?
Once i dreamed about George trolling us all. He had already written 5 new books in advance, far far far beyond the ending of the show, but never released them till then.
The double standards and hypocrisy within this fandom when it comes to dany is hilarious. Stannis, Jon, Robb and every other leader can torture and commit all the war crimes they want but they aren’t called mad. Jon who GRRM confirmed will be getting greyer and has dreams of beheading robb, thinks of beheading wildling children hostages and threatens to burn gilly and her child while holding her hand over fire, isn’t called mad
LOUDERR.
@@_AHY_ only dany gets called “mad” for doing something every other leader does. the fandom loves using season 8 as canon for her but rejects it when it comes to Jaime’s ending. the agenda is so obvious
Using Jon and Robb might not be right.
Using Stannis and Tywin is absolutely right though.
@@nont18411 using Jon and Robb is right. Robb is a war criminal who committed all types of atrocities in the westerlands. Jon has rage blackouts, disturbing dreams and threatens innocent women and kids. He also has tortured many people and took off someone’s head for speaking against him. Yet it is dany people rush to call mad and he gets pardoned
@@_AHY_ Does Joffrey say this at some point in the show or why did I read this in Jack Gleeson's voice?
At this point I don't care about the reasons why he doesn't finish the book. Either finish it soon or say you are not gonna finish it.
Between intense writing sessions of WOW, he's probably enjoying his time finishing up the short story "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" in time for Christmas...2026. Can't wait for the next ASOIAF cookbook. I hope there are some exotic peach recipes.
He doesn’t do the cookbooks, that’s why they actually got finished and published
2024. Winds🙏
Two months left!
I think a key factor to how we perceive Dany in the books is that we never get a POV interacting with her - the closest is Quentin and Barristan remembering interactions with her towards the end of ADWD after Dany has left Meereen, and they aren't the most... insightful POV characters...
This is purposeful to give us a biased view of Dany, we're never given any other perspective on her actions, but this will change in the future books. As that happens we'll get her darker turn to more of a conqueror. This will naturally make us question her actions earlier than in the show.
In the end I think it will be a bit ambiguous exactly what happened - is Dany mad? Justified? Just evil? Unjustified but only as brutal as many others in the series? I personally doubt GRRM will feature a mental break like in the show, and seeing some events through her POV will naturally give them a more sympathetic/understandable bent. That said, there will likely be other POVs and non-POV characters who believe Dany is mad, partly because of her father, partly because she is a woman, partly because of her actions. There will be others who think differently. We will need to weigh all of it up and make our own judgements on how we feel.
George needs to sit down and write, but I keep seeing articles where he's doing anything but write.
Sometimes, keeping your mouth shut gets shit done.
very interesting that crucifying slave masters is mentioned as an act that could make dany come off as a bit evil.... (being ruthless - a characteristic that george himself has said it's important for a leader to have)
anyways i definitely cannot agree that the mistakes she makes as ruler are necessarily foreshadowing of her becoming evil. also i think it's clear that it's her character growth we're seeing when we transition from storm of swords to dance of dragons. so i don't think it's a matter of her being all of a sudden "not that evil". she was never evil to begin with.
It'll be interesting to come back to this in a few years, as I don't hear Elio confirming anything in this. Plus Elio said he thinks Bran will be staying in the cave awhile ago right? Title feels like clickbait.
Dany is alright, story is slow but she's quite heroic in the books for her age and situation. For her to go mad in the last two would be weird and questionable looking at what she's been doing. Fighting slavery and all that just to go mad like, won't this condem Essos after her death? Slavery will come back, seems like an awful ending from GRRM
If you pull back and look at the story it starts to look, rather startingly, as a rearranged LotR. The Red God and Dragons are the shadow and flame we see the story focused on. The North with it's Ice Spiders looks oddly like an adapted version of Ungoliant, but with an equal role in narrative. Its almost like seeing a version of the story were Beleriand is caught between the two but from opposite sides. Also with both of the antagonistic forces fighting eachother over it. That Dany becomes more of a dark grey, what most would call a villain, makes a lot of sense. That said, there should be an equal and opposite on the other side and it still surprises me that no one expects it.
Tbr lotr is such an iconic pioneer of fantasy that every modern fantasy book can be akinned to it
@@louyou6614 This is true, and worth keeping in mind. What I'd like to suggest is that you consider every theory you like about the Long Night and the Dawn Empire in the context of JRRT lore. I'm not suggesting a one to one, or that everything translates.
The Long Night from Doriath's perspective. On day the light from the West suddenly went out (we know the trees were dead). Morgoth and Ungoliant suddenly cross the ice, the dark lord returns and Angband is turned out to ravage Beleriand. Then Feanor arrives with his sons on ships (the burning of the ships) to confront Morgoth. When they arrive the sun rises for the first time replacing the light lost when the trees died. In many ways the story of the Long Night in Westeros is the story of Doriath from the Grey King, Elu Thingol's perspective. The story of the Starks can make sense from both Thingol and Feanor's perspective and it's interesting trying to tease out how he's adapted it.
The Dawn Empire. From the blood betrayal to a hero that brought light, the Dawn Empire sounds like story from Valanor's perspective.
Because GRRM's story spends a lot of itself being a "I would have done it this way" we can make certain educated guesses about basic structure, though motivation and circumstances are vastly different. Other inspirations obviously exist as well. Because of this I often think it makes sense to consider the story from a common point many do in LotR Fandom. What would the story have been like if other characters had a/the ring. Imagine a version of LotR where Gandalf, Aragorn, or even Galadrial all had a ring. I think asoiaf functions like that What If scenario.
@BeteBlanc you know what man , this is the push I needed I soon as a finish clash , I will read the tolkien that is sitting my kindle for far too long , and come back to this comment if I remember
Tolkien work I know the broad strokes of , but tbr the lore scare Me because it look like so much
Anyways I liked your idea
In the books, when she came to Kings' Landing, Young Griff will already be there and the peoples will love him for freeing them from Cersei. It will make more sense for her to go berserk. There's absolutely zero Vampires in Twilight, some kind of weird demon who drink blood, shine in sunlight and bleed diamond, maybe. But no Vampires.
if there are no vampires in twilight, then there are no dragons in asoiaf, only wyverns
@@chamirus1 You know the one thing all the vampires ever created, except the Twilight ones, have in common. They're creatures of the night, they can have all the abilities you want, but that's the one they all share. On you're point of wyvern, good for you you've played D&D, but Georges Dragons are more physiological realistic.
Lmao did you read adwd? Young griff’s failure is more than obviously foreshadowed
Dany was always meant to be the primary villian in the story, this should be clear to anyone. The fulfilment of her character is "the conquerer", her words are "fire and blood" - what do you think that means?
Her conquest parallels Robbs. The reader is meant to cheer on Robbs cause, see him the hero in his fight for justice, and in doing so, become blind to the pride and vainglory that develops in his character, which precipitates his fall. Then we then get a glimpse of the cost of the war via Arya, Brienne and Jamie as they travel through the war torn countryside. Death, grape, orphans etc. This is the fruit of war, and the authors moral lesson. It's meant to drive us to reflect on our previous naive support of Robb, his cause and war itself. This is what makes Feast so thematically important in the narrative.
Dany's story follows the same arc. We see her first as an innocent victim, watch her rise to power, fall for her ideological justifications of war and cheer her on, as we did Robb. Do the ends jusify the means? This will be for the reader to question for themselves.
George will absolutely show us the reality of what comes with being known as "the conqueror". And you can bet it wont be perceived as being a savior or a liberator - which are two entirely different things than conquest. Fire and blood. Death and destruction. This is what Dany brings. This is conquest. And if done correctly, she will be perhaps the greatest villain in all of fiction. Which will be magnified as people realize that she is a great villain precisely because many of the fans love her and supported her. An interesting shift from the evil for the sake of evil archetype.
Want to know how tyrants take power and are loved, despite the bloodshed they inflict? Reflect on your support of Dany, the harbinger of death.
Of course you have a right to your opinion. That sed, I personally think you have a have a fundamental misunderstanding of one of the aspects of the books. That aspect being “duality”, something we see through parallel themes, arcs and characters.
You talk about Robb and his war, about how we readers felt inclined to cheer for him and how we became blind to the horrors of war. That is all true. However it would be disingenuous to claim that Robb’s and Dany’s wars are similar in any way.
War is horrible and deadly and should be avoided… unless there is no other way. Because for all war is horrible, it is not fundamentally bad much like a knife or a gun. Sometimes bad people need to be stopped and there are no other ways forward, sometimes the peace is a more horrible reality. In truth, often times things are not “black and white”, that is not to say there are no “black and white” situations of course. All this and more GRRM already knows for he himself sed he would have enlisted in the war against the nazis if he could.
So while Robb’s war, like you sed, shows the horrific brutality of war, Dany’s shows the merciful side of it. That doesn’t mean Dany herself is the embodiment of mercy. She is a flawed character because GRRM who enjoys writing flawed beings, “the heart in conflict with itself” and all that.
8:10 i’d argue blade runner 2049 tried as hard as it possibly could to stay true to the source material
If Dany turns the rest of the series, Winds of Winter and later, aren't worth waiting for.
The guy is 76 and looks like he hasnt done any physical activity his whole life. The probability of him dying in the next few years is enormous. We re never seeing these books
Never had a problem with what happened, just how it happened. Except Arya killing the Night King, thought that was weak.
Mildly disagree. Barristan's end was terrible and Jaime's dalliance with Brienne was unnecessary.
Go Pack Go
@@sardonically-inclined7645 Yes for sure, I only had season 8 in mind. Justice for Stannis!
@@XDivineSouljax Yessir!
@@sardonically-inclined7645 that’s the thing though, Barristan will likely still die in the battle of mereen in a big noble sacrifice and Arya eventually will probably kill ‘a great other’ even if it’s not specifically the night king, the way George will write it however will not be nearly as weak as the show runners
Love your stuff, guys. 👍💯❤️
I always believed Dany would eventually turn megalomaniacal. She is traumatized, sure, but she also has negative personality traits that indicate a Diva complex (Diva in the goddess definition AND the more modern definition). Her trigger for full-on Fire and Blood will likely be Aegon (Faegon) and his reception among the lowborn.
Dany also has very unrealistic expectations of the Dothraki. They are raiders, not peacekeepers. Bringing them to Westeros would be a terrible idea. Dragons are also a terrible idea. The Maesters were right to destroy them.
I…no…no.
dragons won’t be so bad when the white walkers come, i bet that.
@@HizzayLoves Dragons are nukes, as GRR Martin has stated. They are terrible beings born of generations of suffering and death.
And I doubt the White Walkers will be quintessentially "evil". Martin has stated that they are not evil, but are simply a different form of life. Your simplistic binary "good vs evil" perspective is not supported by Martin's "gray" world.
@@HizzayLoves the series is A Song of Ice and Fire, based on Frost's iconic poem about the end of the world. Will it end in Ice or Fire? Guess who represents the Fire. DRAGONS.
😐
Glad you guys kept doing this stuff, best ASOIF duo
Idk, to me it seems if George is gonna turn one of the most moral (by asoiaf standards) characters in the story into a psychotic super villain it just seems like there's no point to the story. 99% of the world is already pretty evil and now even Dany, the breaker of chains is to? At this point there's nothing to root for in the side of the living so I hope the Others kill everybody.
I can see Dany causing massive collateral damage as an indirect result of her going mad queen but i dont see her directly killing innocents for fun like she did in the show. I can see it working if she does this BEFORE the Others invade and sort of cleans up her act before then going off to face them.
That fact that you and so many others consider Dany the most moral in the story is frankly laughable and a notable example of the delusions of the mass man.
@aceambling7685 I said one of and yes in asoiaf she definitely is a moral character. In our world she'd be a horrible person.
"I can see how this could happen" does not mean "I confirm", you know. It's clear you hate Daenerys, but regardless if like her or not, basic language comprehension is a good thing to practice
Context clues , he is not allowed to confirm anything
Basic comprehension confirming will spoil upcoming books fully , george will kill him
@@louyou6614 then whey did he say George doesn’t discuss the books with them in the same interview
@ramixaleandros5893 arnt they the guys who proof read him tho , or am I mistaking them for someone else
@@louyou6614 Never heard that, I know they helped with AWOIAF and the website. That's all I've heard.
Yay! Finally something fun to listen to while I do my chores around the house
3:45 she orders the torture of a merchant’s daughters so that the merchant will give information about the death of some Unsullied (at Skahaz’s suggestion) which imo is a lot worse than torturing the person who actually has the information you want. she does walk back her brutality some in Dance but to me this instance does come across similar to show she is in Storm.
you remember which chapter that is?
Which is no different from the choices made by literally every other character in the book and none of them are considered crazy
@@ryri51 No one says that dany is crazy, just that she is not the disney princess the fandom wants her to be.
@@Midgert89 And this point applies to almost all the characters in the books, yet only one of them is held to a different standard.
She tortures suspects. Those girls were the ones who served the wine. Jon tortures people by trapping them in ice and no one says anything
Do you really believe what you're saying about Dany?
So, it seems better for us not to have it finished. Otherwise we are getting GoT ending, which was the actually supposed ending all the way. Ok, George, just go for Dunk and Egg.
Allot of his story has already been spoiled, and this is why he hasn’t had any motivation to finish after season six came out
I'll be honest; if the endgame is Evil Dany, my desire to read the final books just made a sharp downturn. I mean, I don't believe he's ever going finish writing TWoW, let alone ADoS, but now I'm almost relieved about that rather than disappointed. We don't need another voice talking about how there's no such thing as a competent female ruler.
To be fair, a lot of the male rulers we meet in this universe are also depicted as bad, but NO female rulers are ever portrayed as competent. They can be the power behind the scenes like Olenna Tyrell, or be warriors like Brienne and Arya, but wield political power in their own right? Nah, they can't do that without being weak or evil. Can't have this fantasy universe with dragons and years-long seasons be "unrealistic" by having womenfolk in power governing well./sarcasm
She kills Mirri Maaz Duur for killing her slaver husband
@@makimasbrat5508 There is a lot more to that scenario and you know it cmon
@@ramixaleandros5893 yeah, he forgot to mention how she also throws herself into the fire because she saw it in a dream. Totally not mad behavior! 😄
@@kthy0056 That's also ignoring the magic of the setting. Her dragon dreams. I guess all Wargs and Greenseers are mad as well.
@@ramixaleandros5893 the Varamyr prologue chapter in my opinion proves that wargs are crazy as hell too.
I think the worst thing for me personally is either how Jon is portrayed in the later seasons, or the new small council at the end. Nobody can defend that small council it makes zero sense. Brianne as lord commander of the kings guard? She pledged herself to renly, he died under her watch, pledged herself to Catelyn oh she’s dead too. Another problem I have is it feels like characters have massive plot armor in the later seasons. I’m sure someone’s going to argue against that, but GRRM writes stories that are more realistic in a way where it’s not always going to be a happy ending and even if the good guy wins theres going to be a cost.
Interesting. I feel like I saw something about how the show originally was going to have Dany accidentally set off wildfire, then they changed it to her burning Lannister soldiers, but then they didn't feel like that warranted Jon killing her so they made the final change to her going mad. To me, this implies (and I haven't seen the interview so I could be wrong) that the show was making more things up for its ending than we thought. My perspective was that people were too quick to accept "the show got the broad strokes but missed the buildup" and in fact things like Daenerys' turn were made up (maybe the truth of it is that Jon kills Dany in the book for the good of the realm, and that's all George told them but we don't know the context? Plus Preston has talked about foreshadowing in the books for Jon killing Dany before)
According to the interview with Colbert, GRRM said in 2022 that he had 1,200 pages, already longer than Dance.
Elio Garcia theory sounds good to me, George could just release what he has, but the novel would not end where he wanted, so he is gonna keep going until it finishes where he wants the story to finish and release a novel so big that is going to need to be sold in two books. Like Storm and Dance are sold in some places and editions.
The problem is not George can’t find the time to write. He simply doesn’t know how to tie up all the loose knots and make them plausible together. If the show’s ending was his original outline for the story, we all saw how crappy it turned out and he knows it. So he went back to the drawing board and is trying to make the story coherent again.
Why do people not like Elio and Linda? They rose from having a fan blog to George trusting them to keep his continuity. Is it an "Why him, it should've been me!" type of deal?
That and Linda is very outspoken and doesn't put up with anyone's crap.
@@joseaguilar3323 Elio is cool, Linda is a bit much to say the least
@@Zhohan- Hey Linda, cool to see your alt account.
@@Zhohan- Translation: she is rude and obnoxious, and also racist AF. And has tons of internalized misogyny and calls women in the fandom names, Ironically, she hates Cersei, the canon misogynist woman, which would be OK if she weren't doing things like denying that Cersei was raped by Robert.
I'm not an expose channel so I won't go into too much detail, even when I do my own video, but if you're curious google up "A Storm of Hate: the Problem with Linda Antonsson" and it'll be a watchers on the wall article.
My interpretation of both the books and the show was that Dany is only this noble figure because of the people she surrounds herself with. She's not naturally a gifted leader who makes good decisions. She needs Jorah and Barristan and Missandei and so on. When she loses all of those people, she is easily corruptible and makes very bad decisions.
To me, the tragedy of the show isn't that her turn to evil wasn't well-established prior to The Bells. After all, Varys thinks she's nuts. Tyrion is unsure about her. Jon is unsure about her. We as the audience can see that these trusted characters think she might be off. I mean - hell - she considers herself a freedom fighter who is entitled to rule cities she's invaded that are very much an allegory for middle eastern ones in our own society.
No, the tragedy of Dany's arc in the show is that her dependence on her council isn't spelled out as clearly as it should be and all of those characters that die (Barristan, Missandei, Jorah, etc) are bungled in such an epic way that the audience forgets how crucial they were to her healthy perspective when her turn during The Bells finally happens.
I fully believe that Dany destroys Kings Landing, the real difference is most likely the reason for it. She probably burns it to stop a plague but gets framed as mad.
No she's going to do it because she'll be rejected in favor of young griff. Dare I say, she'll save humanity and them come back to this rejection.
@@leehunts4327 I think the opposite. That she destroys King’s Landing and saves humanity to redeem herself (probably by offering herself as a sacrifice for Light-Bringer).
True. The plaque caused by Jon Connington.
it's not just that it was rushed, or even that lovingly burning the entire city while ignoring the red keep makes no sense. there's also the way that 1) two out of three female rulers are presented as psychopathic killers, and 2) the worst of them is the one who was previously actually trying to make the world a better place.
Listened to the full interview. RIP the Great Empire of the Dawn.
It would be very easy to write Dany as *not evil*.
Just have her destroy KL by accidentally igniting the wildfire caches.
I believe this was D&D's original ending before they decided Mad Queen would be more dramatic.
Wait has Elio been upgraded to cowriter now? When did this happen?
I was more upset with Littlefinger and Lord Varys not making it to the end. I always felt those two were playing chess, and everybody else was just a part on the board.
Daenerys becoming evil is just so laaaaaaaaame.
If she tries to take the Iron Throne and then accidentally blows up the city, and then sacrifices herself and her dragons to stop the white walkers, maaaaaybe, but her story arc ending in her going mad is just so unfulfilling and boring.
For a book and a world all about gray characters to end with someone like Dany becoming squarely "evil" is just not a good arc at all.
@aidenignition exactly, especially as throughout ASOIAF, Fire & Blood, and Egg & Dunk series GRRM sows sone doubt over the whole 'madness' of Targs not being exactly that commonplace as its made out to be. Idk it is a little lame and tired...
I had an open mind until we discussed the pink letter
There's a great book called the War of Art. The whole thing is about the creative's battle against Resistance. Resistaance is you getting in the way of yourself. I'm too tired, I hate the chapter I just wrote, I'll do it tomorrow. It's all just Resistance rationalizing itself, according to the author.
Externalizing it that way is a great way to see when it's happening and just do it anyway.
Clearly, this is a life long battle. Even Martin, a man who's been writing longer than most of us have been alive, struggles with it.
I mean...it's been 12 years...
@OfficialRedTeamReview I think another major issue is that he just doesn't care like he used to.
I meant it more as something we creatives all need to be weary of, rather than a defense of Martin. Even greats can get sucked down the rabbit hole of excuses and bargaining.
He may not even be fully aware of all the reasons it's taking so damn long. Again, not an excuse, just an observation.
Literally my idea was she should ne burning the city, either in a small show of force but triggers the wildfire and everyone blames her regardless. Most of them have never seen a dragon or dragons fire, and the ground exploding with wildfire would be enough to convince the people in universe that she’s evil and that’s all that matters. IMO Her story should be tragic because she’s literally killing people constantly, but because it was an accident showing that literally everyone loses when dragons are involved helping it solidify that anyone with a WMD is too many with a WMD
I’d be fine with dany destroying kings landing if it actually makes sense why she would do it, Jon snow breaking up with her and her winning the battle with Cersei leading to the KL destruction didn’t make any sense
Preston saying GRRM "could just easily have written 8 books" is priceless. This know it all just runs his mouth like he is inside GRRMs head or knows the guy at all, and fans lick it up.
I think he has a point. GRRM keeps ripping up what he's written, because he's trying to force the rest of his story into two volumes.
@@BDnevernind I love when people write fanfiction about Preston Jacobs as if they know him lmao. George allowing himself more books would certainly speed up his writing process as he would be able to commit to his more natural tendencies to write in a long-winded way and be limiting himself less/less rewrites.
Thanks for making my point, guys.
@@BDnevernind well he's read everything george has written so i'd say he knows him better than you my guy
Yes please keep the sycophancy coming.
I mean sure it might come across better if not as rushed but it’s still going to fucking suck as a fan of Dany.
Yo dany being flawed charachter
Dany being a child and doing mistaken
Dany being always selfless but her only selfish act end up horrifically
Dany falling victim of her flaws
Dany realising what she is doing
Dany horrified what she did
Dany battering her inner flaws and redeeming herself in the long night
Dany interesting charachter rather than a messiah perfect person and doing mistakes and working on redemption rather than just doing constantly good actions because no one dan do good actions all the time
I love dany
To be fair, it made no sense for SHOW Dany to turn evil. Book Dany, to me, could go either way. She is way more messed up, since she's still only 14 or 15 at this point.
I feel like in the show.. dani n Jon's growth seemed to be paralleled. They were both helping others and were chosen as leaders. I just knew they'd be together at the end. Boy.. was I wrong 🙄😂
The next book should wrap up the fall of house Bolton and Frey and because of that be called “A time for wolves” it shouldn’t be called the winds of winter because I don’t see how the white walkers would be coming south so soon causing the long night.
Well, David Lightbringer is going to be crushed XD
Daenerys going mad and burning all of kings landing was the one least stupid plot point in all of season 8.
Idea itself is great
Calling elio a co-writer is an insult to George. To compare that hack anywhere near George is ridiculous
Jeeze take some MDMA or something dude.
@@williammcharg4982 George himself call him that so calm down before you pop a vein or something
Buddy, he literally co-wrote with George. Their names are on the World of Ice & Fire alongside Grrm himself.
lmfao, calling another writer a hack while praising George is irony 101. George is a fucking hack, maybe he can earn back some respect when he either finishes the series or at least admits he gave up long ago and will never finish.
They are credited ......
the thought of george calling his close advisors his small council makes too much sense
5:06 Preston, the show did build Dany up as a heroine, but it also portrayed her as having a penchant for brutality and bloodlust. She talked about destroying entire cities, massacred people, etc.
Still much more heroic than the other characters whom they tried to portray as good and just like Sansa and Arya, who had shown an obvious psychopathic tendency.
But her heroic actions were freeing slaves and being literally a protector of the common people for the longest time, which destroyed any throw away line about burning cities. Dany was built as a liberator, not a conqueror, while in the books it's the same, there's less fanfair when she's doing the extremely good deeds.
@@nont18411 What did Sansa do, besides feeding Ramsay to the dogs? I wouldn't call that psychopathic. Maybe a bit sadistic but who could blame her?
By all means post the chapter where she talks about destroying cities. I’ll wait
She never threatens to burn down cities in the books lol
Have you heard the rumor that the HotD cast haven't seen a script for season 3 yet?
Not a rumor, Matt Smith confirmed it.
At this point, even if TWOW is released, I have no intention of reading it. I don't remember the fine details and minor characters anymore, and im NOT investing time in rereading the entire series... ESPECIALLY because we know he will never finish ADOS (and even if he does, it won't be the last book.. theres just too much to story to wrap up).
Rita Repulsa: After 10,000 years I'm free and "the Winds of Winter" hasn't been published yet!
When it comes to stories there are no bad ideas. I don't have a problem with any of the concepts that were explored in the later seasons (arya killing the night king really pushes it tho), but GOD was the execution bad
Screw him, Stephen King has written more novels since A Dance With Dragons came out than he has in his whole career.
George kind of forgot about finishing the books
Dany HAS done some pretty bad stuff in the book, just like she did in the show, but we’ll have to see if it works on the page.
For the algorithm!!
appreciate you, also feel free to message me anytime on discord btw, i think you're in there
Elio with the AI slop he puts on the wiki
I asked about that and from what I heard the reason he does it is to illustrate characters who don't have fan art yet. Not defending it, just the excuse/reason I heard.
At this point, I wish George well but he’s never finishing the books
Add in with fake aegon not on the show you take away a huge reason dany will turn against the people of Westeros
Whos Tolking?
The little digs at light bringer are pure cringe , like his ideas have zero merit. Most people get jealous when good ideas aren’t their own
I'm a time traveller from 2023, the books still aren't finished
This guy was way more honest about what's going on with the Winds of Winter than anything GRRM has ever said. GRRM has even indicated that the fans are the ones with the problem, not him, when we all know better.
It's been a minuteee
several
Anybody who thinks that there isn’t foreshadowing in the books showing Danny going dark hasn’t been paying enough attention. It’s all there.
ironically in the behind the scenes book to the show, many of the writers felt that they had adequately portrayed that she wasn't the good guy and were confused as to why people cheered her on.
@@OfficialRedTeamReview After thinking about it quite a lot, I do think it is even true to a certain point. What I just recently recognised is the Shows death of Xaro Xoan Daxos and Eroeh - she has them locked alive in an unopenable vault. If you think about it, that is _really_ messed up, and far worse then just killing them as revenge. Similarly, Burning Mirri Maz Duur _alive_ is far worse than just killing her. The show just failed in portraying these acts as what they are - showing a certain indulgence in cruelty that other characters who do "dark" things (Arya, Jon, etc. who do their fair share of murdering) do not.
@@OfficialRedTeamReview maybe because she literally ends slavery? You know, it would be like expecting Abe Lincoln and Nelson Mandela to go mad
@@LarthVArya baking people into a pie and feeding them to their father is more “messed up” than anything Dany did but y’all hold Dany to an impossibly high standard lmao
@@Glamuel I am actually not - since we have no incentive the baking took place while the victims were still alive. So while it is more disturbing in consideration of things like the taboo of consuming human flesh, it is technically less cruel. What happens after death is basically irrelevant...
Why is every interesting podcast behind a paywall
More than 95% of what we do is free and you're still complaining?
Nah it's not a big deal, just asking.. also just a heads up, alot of the episodes never show up on the RSS feed in my podcast app
@@rustyshackleford4398 What's your podcast app?
Podcast addict
Winds and dream will never release
I say Daenerys getting too emotional was too realistic because it's like that thing where oh this liter is supposed to lead us into a new age and then everybody feels betrayed because she didn't do the thing they said they would
Danys downfall directly ties into the Targaryen prophecy. How she is the Uber special child and that means HER vision must be true no matter what and that she must be of importance. That’s what I think HotD is trying to do with the story. Is that the divine right of kings justifies genocide.
It’s like how Paul Atriedes becomes the hero and causes a literal galactic civil war and genocide leaving the empire to a son who became a tyrant for several thousand years and has the memories of several thousand galactic level dickhead noblemen in his head trying to “save” the universe in “the only way I know how” yeah because the only data you’ve gathered are from scheming rich political dickheads not actual common people.
I think it’s going to be about how the narcissistic tendencies of Targaryens are their defining characteristic.
how being proclaimed the savior and ultimate paragon of the racial superiority of monstrous hellish sorcerers who enslaved millions.