What's The Future Of The MTB Drivetrain? | GMBN Tech Show 332
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this week's GMBN Tech Show, Anna Cipullo and Owen Coutts are talking about the future of MTB drivetrains. In the rest of the show, we report on news, and your usual favourites including your wonderful rewinds, this week’s Quiz question and much more!
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⏱️ Timestamps ⏱️
00:00 - Intro
00:25 - What's The Future Of The Drivetrain?
06:10 - News
11:17 - Quiz
12:12 - Rewind
14:06 - Comments
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What do you think is the future of the mountain bike drivetrain?
Doest really matter where drivetrains will go. When the fad hits all the manufactures will buy into it and we all will have it eventually like all others. The same as with 27.5 or 29 wheels, the decision will be decided for us.
Things are definetely moving in favor of gearboxes and mid-drive Ebikes with integrated gearbox unit, especially gravity scene. The derailleur will never die in XC though.
More interesting, how big of a devide becomes between what is an enduro and downcowntry now, because you clearly can't have all this tech on a gradual spectrum. Will trail bike seize to exist?😱
I'll go with whatever makes my bike more silent ;-)
@@gogovitch66Test a Pinion bike with a Belt... You won't hear anything 👍
I ride Pinion gearbox bikes since 2012. Currently on my 4th Nicolai with this system. For the (quite simple and flat and boring) riding I do, this is perfect. No maintenance, no chain, no noise. That said: on average I loose around 11 watts in the box. So that might be a consideration, weight is another one, the entire system will add between 800 and 1200 grams over "normal" solutions. As I'm mainly out to enjoy nature, and not to set any performance records, that is fine for me. More competitive riders (XC especially) will probably reconsider and stick with a derailleur.
I ride a Nicolai with Pinion and Gates Belt drive since August last year. It's such an amazing system... Perfect shifting, even while standing still and 12 gears at once. 600% gear range, virtually no maintenance (I'm 1800km in with NO maintenance at all), a much lighter and playful rear end and the weight centered in the bike.
I didn't want to go back to the Chain and Derailleur type bike...
What about drag and overall weight?
Does Nicolai enjoy it?
@@elmomosI didn't feel much more drag than with a Chain/derailleur. I've seen a test where the drag is measured, and the Belt has a different drag curve, in high power, the losses were a bit lower, only on low power, the drag was a bit higher than chain. The feeling is a bit weird at the start, but I got used to it after a few minutes. My Bike weights about 14,7kg, but the frame itself is very heavy, even in the Derailleur type.
Inefficiencies with gearbox and belt systems seem to be the most favorite highlight from mech users.
It's like people complaining about buying a bigger, better lawnmower at year 1 which lasts 20 years and cuts the grass better, than dealing with buying 3 crappy lawnmowers in the same timeframe that all break down, don't cut the grass all that well, and require a ton of maintenance, but are lighter and smaller mowers.
Gear boxes with belt drives are clearly the future! But in order for them to work brands need to come together and agree a standard so you can swap gear boxes etc on frames! Just like the mobile phone industry all agreeing to go with USB C we need a standard! Especially on e-bikes!!!
True words with the standard. Effigears Mimic Gearbox is compatible with the Pinion Mount standard. Pinion already has a really big community. But tbh, E-Bikes also didn't have a standard...
FYI… “Fun” Fact: Apple was forced into USB-C by the EU.
Gearboxes are to heavy, and have to much drag, for xc’ish trail riding 🤷♂️
might also be gear boxes with chains since that doesn't need a rear triangles that can be dismanteled to get the belt through.
why do you need to switch gear boxes. You try them out and then go for one and live with it or sell the bike and buy the other bikefram-box. If you're bying that kind of kit, you're not strapped for a few bucks you lose selling old kit, or else, you need to re-think your finances. This isnt really an issue. WHat is, though, is occasional drag, but thats about it
Regarding drivetrains, I've been running a Zerode Taniwha Trail 445 with the pinion C1.9XR and gates belt drive. Fantastic kit. Takes a bit of getting used to, but I don't have to worry about ripping off rear mechs. And it's deadly quiet 🤘
I would liek to test it for sure. It is great that full sus belt driven bike exists!
I am not against other drivetrains if they work well- but I also have damaged my rear mech a single time in my entire life (bent it with a brench I rode over) so most of the alternatives are solving problems I don't have
@@olik136 That's not my experience. I've destroyed plenty of derailleurs and ripped wheels apart with them. Even when they're intact they generally get knocked out of adjustment within a couple of weeks. Things have only got worse with 1x mechs that hang lower than rear mechs for 3x drivetrains.
Loved my 2010 Norco shore with Hammerschmidt was so fast and made you always ready for a quick climb or ladder bridge and then again for downhill section. Nothing is as fast to change ratio quickly. That I know of. Bring it back !!!!!!! Hahaha
I have a 2012 norco aurum it's exactly how I would describe it, it switches direction like nothing else...
7:58 yes, i'm using TPU tube for both MTB and road. Improves rolling resistance by a lot. It's hard to patch tho. Never going back to regular inner tubes ever.
4:07 I saw a Canyon prototype, it was a XC full suspension bike. But I've not seen an enduro prototype yet. I doubt this will be ready anytime soon. Probably never.
The gearing thing is like the start of automobiles, where different manufacturers had different solutions to all aspects... Gears brakes accelerators... Eventually they all settled on the current pedal placements and gearing control solutions (brake middle, clutch/gear control left, acceleratir right)
... gears,* brakes,* accelerators.*
Obviously Campagnolo released the first 13 speed drivetrain, Ekar is the name. Mostly used on gravel bikes (i.e. like mountain bikes but better because they're based on road geometry).
ZZYZX now exist as a components subbrand of Corratec. The fork in question predates their alliance though...
I use the Tubolito in my tyres in my ebike. Super light & stronger than the heavy conventional inners.
"Looked at stuff, doing other stuff..." was golden 🤣
I bought a Priority 600x with the Pinion gear box and Gates belt drive. I know I am locked in but I love it. Durability and low maintenance are important and I think these components accomplish that. Small loss in efficiency perhaps, but not enough to make a difference for me.
I’m digging the new Conti TPU Inner Tubes! I really need this for my long distance bikepacking and biketouring trip! Let’s go! 🔥🔥🔥
Carry a tubalito and a pump in case of a flat. I carry a little strap on pouch on the top tube, and the tube saves a lot of room for other items.
Tubolito*
Your thumbnail is HILARIOUS! Showing a totally non-functional hairbrained idea that went NOWHERE to replace the tried and true cog & chain drivetrain that has survived an over 100 year test of time?
Comedians.
Hi, in french "Tu es" means "you are" , just in case someone needs to know :)
Au Québec "tu é" 😂
Been running Pirelli smartubes for the past year and a half or so, they are super light compared to tubes or sealant. Just be careful they aint stuck under the beed when fitting though, gutting when they cost so much 😂
I am pretty sure my next bike will be have a gearbox.
I love the idea of minimal maintenance and an extremely quiet bike.
I have TPU on my road bike and I kinda like them (although I have had two punctures and am still adapting to fixing these), my MTB is just tubeless.
The main things I want in my gear selection are reliability and consistency. I don't care where they put the weight if it improves on that over current convention. I am tired of fiddling with it!!!
@gmbntech 1st 13 speed was Rotor (Andy W, UK)
I will be trying TPU tubes on my daily rider soon, might try them on my MTB as well
Go for it! Let us know the difference
Rotor had the first hydraulic-actuated 13-speed drivetrain, but y'all missed Campy Ekar
Thank You ARI..!
My grandkids will ride my current 1x11 drivetrain. Unless you break it, it will serve you forever. Oh, unless we are talking about pro level racing. Those will chase the latest and greatest.
I use TPU tubes in my hybrid tyres. I also carry spare TPU tubes in the correct sizes for both my mountain bikes. I use the Tubolito tubes. I also have the advantage that I can use the same tube on Pinkeye if I'm running either s 29er or 650b tear wheel. Ss for gearbox bikes. I haven't really thought about them too much. I have looked at them in the past. At the moment I'll stick with the 12 speed Shimano.
Personally I think a belt and internal hub will be the standard in years to come. It's already the preferred touring setup for those with a basically unlimited budget. The chain and rear derailleur with freewheel / cassette will never die because, what happens when you are half way through a touring adventure, in the middle of a small Indian town? They likely have many options for derailleur, cassette, freewheel etc but they will not have anything else. It will be interesting to see if MTB's go this route too, I am not sure how an internal hub and belt would fare in that terrain.
I've seen TPU tubes before but not from continental. The other brand (from australia I think? don't recall) didn't make 29er tubes in the width I needed and unlike latex or butyl tubes they don't expand so you need a tube specific for your size. You can't play the old game of having the smallest available tube for emergencies and then being able to expand it to your rim size and tire width
My next mountain bike will have the Pinon gearbox, motor combination. I have broken too many derailers on my present bike.
The ceramic-based speed bike’s gearbox looks a little intriguing to me about how the video demonstrates the rotating of the rear cassette connected to the front cassette by the long bar. If this will be used on an MTB aspect, the question in my mind would be “Is it enough for handling different sets of trails and tracks? Be if it’s on the mountain trails, downhill, long distance bikepacking or biketouring, etc?” The things is, ceramic materials have a limited resistance in terms or stress to brittleness and maybe even when subjected to heat (the whole day outside). 🤔
it can’t actually work - aside from the lateral forces, the full load being on one tooth, it’s fundamentally impossible to provide linear gear ratios
@@richdyer2000 that's also true my friend. I'm also concerned about the shifting of gears in technical sections as well as the durability and longevity.
A long time ago I thought about a two gear bottom bracket. A chainring on a shaft that contacts bottom bracket. The crank attached to a smaller rod through the middle of outer chainrin shaft. It would either drive chainring as crank rotation or reduced chainring rotation through gears.
I had not the money for patents or flashy engineered prototypes.
And it was lost in the mist of time.
We already have plenty frames with room for some gearshifting device near the BB. They are called eMTB frames. Remove the motor (and battery) and start experimenting. (oolab?)
Going to reinvent the sprocket this weekend, I'll let you know how it goes.
Simple form and function (externally) just seems best. The Pinion-style gearbox with belt drive just seems the most elegant and complete solution than the wild frames, reconfigured derailleurs, greasy chains, and open (to dirt and debris) mechanisms.
The only real downsides by comparison seem to be a bit of extra weight and unfamiliar shifting style. There's a load of advantages over traditional mech's otherwise.
Not the next big thing but I do believe my next bike will be a Zerode Katipo. Why? My road bike has the Pinion/ Gates set up and I rather enjoy not fussin’ bout the chain. Yes I do notice a small loss in efficiency but for tooling around that bit might not matter much.
This driveshaft from ceramispeed is, in my opinion, a novelty for a show, with no practical significance. It won't transmit any serious torque. The shaft itself could, but that weird bevel-gear-like thing has no lateral rigidity and would bend away from the drive pinion. And imagine any sand or grit between those interfaces... Crunch!
Hammerschmidt was a nice idea. The problem was, it was too expensive, for this small ratio gear extension!
And like all these special gearbox bikes, you need a very special frame, Wich only works with that gearboxes.......
Just another reminder… again. Kashima is not a color, it is a specific coating formula which is patented. You can’t patent colors.
6:03 how about someone makes a gearbox that fits to the bottom bracket same way some of those mid drive motors mount? like if you can fit a whole motor there that way then why not gear box?
I hate re-tuning the shifting every other ride, so any option that makes shifting just work I'm for!
#askgmbntech - thoughts on the Shimano patent for ELECTRIC BRAKES? Yes you did read that correctly....
Yep I saw something about that Patent too - that could be wild - we'll have to hunt down more info! Cheers
Owen
Shimano was the 1st to release 1x 13 gears.. you mentioned they are working for its patent..
Zzyzx is on the way to Las Vegas from Southern California. :)
If there's anything I've learned from buying a I-Spec B shifter is NEVER buy proprietary crap. I switched to Hayes Dominion brakes and they don't interface wtih Spec B. Long story short it was a giant headache and I had to get an aftermarket bar adapter for the shifter and I couldn't get the shifter into a comfortable position because of clearances and I had to grind material off of the shifter and get custom adapter bolts. I only did this because the shifter was 3 months old. All these "new" drivetrains are niche and therefore a headache to get replacement parts for.
Rotor was the first to introduce 13 speed gearing
TPU on the road bike. Tubeless on the MTB
#quiz I was thinking of Shimano or maybe Sram? 🤔
Is anyone asking for a 13 speed groups. I hear more demand for 2x systems. I'm happy with my 1x12 XT setup, but I know a simple 1x10 would have been just fine and maybe a bunch cheaper.
My concern with Shimano's new wireless groupsets is they will drop the old fashion, but still fantastic cable shifting systems. (See 105 on the road side.) I love my 12-spd XT system. Wireless is really for the bike manufactures, it reduces the time it takes to assembling a bike, without increase the labor cost (no cables to run). The push for wireless is from the manufactures not the riders, it is also one of the factors driving the cost of riding higher and higher.
I'm asking for 20 speed. Ultimate Boost™ here we come ...
Next bike: currently sitting in the wings as development is happening at a staggering pace - but when I do dive in it will be an e-bike with a gearbox and belt drive.
I dont think Chris big bear lake pic was taken in 1993, 1998 maybe? The LTS came out in 1995, I didn't have mine until summer 1996 even with a preorder from the store I was working at.
1x13 I think was Rotor they have hydraulic shifters wich I never same I still want a pair of Mr Wolf's hand guards for my xc dh hybrid jamis
Campy makes a road 13. BTW
Is there any news on that 13s shimano gearbox? The one they filed a patent for.
Edit: you covered it👍🏻
Why no mention of Rohloff hubs?? I have ridden the gnarliest of terrain, including jumplines and double blacks for the last 10 years on a Rohloff. Absolutely zero issues.
Probably because the entire premise of the question related to moving mass from the rear wheel to the bottom bracket area.
#quiz is it Campagnolo i think in like 2020
I run tubeless on my fatbike but a lot of the guys I ride with run the tubolito tubes because they swap between studded and non studded tires and dont want to mess around with sealant. The weight difference between them and a regular butyl fat bike tube is insane
Tubeless does not mean you need sealant. But it does make thing easier. I can ride without sealant most of the time, cause the tyre is so durable.
Put tubolitos on my trials bike; insaaaaane… light and bouncy, instantly ride like Charlie Rolls…😂
I have recently bought my new Canyon Neuron with 1by and 10-51 Shimano cassette and I find that gear range is slightly unsufficient. I had 618% gear range on my older bike with 3by and I find it sufficient for what I do with my bike, because I have only one bike for all conditions. I ride in steep mountains, I pull my kids in childseat and croozer trailer. I used to go on road trips, I used go to bikepacking with that bike....so I takes all disciplines with no problem. My new Canyon ride better in all ways (except I can't mount child seat on frame) but gear range of 510 is small for all disciplines. I think do-it-all bike should have more gear range. At least 600%. I think current drivetrain technology is not sufficient. I would like to pedal lighter when towing trailer into mountains and I would like to pedal in 40km/h with strong slow rotations. For now I need to make compromises in my riding disciplines.
Hi - this is great question - I'll try and cover it in a #askgmbntech! Cheers Owen
The 1 x drivetrains we have now are simple, reliable, lightweight, quiet, affordable, cross compatible, require a bit of maintenance that you can do yourself and look nice and clean. A great system that doesn’t need much mucking with!
#quiz - Ok I am pushing my brain a little here - I think it is actually Rotor who had the first 1 x 13 drivetrain? Could this be the first time I am wrong?
nope, you are correct! This would be the first 1 X 13 and electric though
@@gmbntech you are treading the fine line here with that many roadie plug-ins
@@gmbntech the Rotor one was hydraulic... not electric? (Or did you not see this as the quiz question? )
@@tim__sadler We didn't say the first 13sp "electric", just first 13sp. Electric 13sp only exists for roadies at the moment. And don't worry, you haven't lost your winning streak... yet. 😉
@@AnnaOnTheBike Normally don't find out if I am correct till the next show though..
I have a tubolito strapped to my frame
Is that some sort of Spanish dessert?
you can keep your fancy, over-complicated, novelty drive trains
A gearbox on an E MTB is a no-brainer. The bikes are heavy and powerful, so why would you think a light weight cassette and tech handle the extra weight and power delivery that an E-Bike can unleash. Weight is not an issue for most full-power E MTB riders I am sure. Link Glide is a good step in the right direction for its added strength, bu a gearbox ticks so many boxes.
ROTOR were first to introduce 1x13
Rear mechs are ridiculously exposed. Dirt, rocks, falling over, just so easy to damage. Yes they’re very efficient, but in an eMTB it has to be a Pinion. No doubt others will make gearbox/belt drive systems as they get cheaper.
#askgmbntech I have a nukeproof scout (thanks Blake) and am wondering if it's at all possible to fit a 46T chainring to work with my SRAM GX Eagle 12sp cassette? Any and all advice welcome. Thanks guys.
Hello, and thanks for the nice infos, the first 1x13 was released by classified for mtb although rotor already have a 1x13 mtb groups et as well campagnolo. Also bad news another team this week had their bikes stolen, those bast****
I could have sworn that Ekar was the first 1x13 but looks like rotor one by a year...
Wireless is not necessarily “The Future”. I have a SRAM AXS GX derailleur upgrade and while it shifts nice, I don’t like having to rely on managing charging yet another thing. I was even on a ride recently and this guy was at the trailhead and his battery was dead. He was lucky because I had a spare in my pack. I also had to warranty my derailleur because the battery contact springs on the derailleur stop working so it would not maintain contact with the battery and would just stop working mid-ride.
My other new bike simply has SLX which works just as well IMHO. I am curious about Pinion with belt drive as the future.
so why do you need any drive train at all. just direct drive the back wheel hub gear box, with pedals on the same axle. think if the normal situation is that driver is upright, and the front wheel is half-way in the air. and all weight is on the back wheel. and its fully able to be pedalled. like one wheel trick wheel monocycle, but two wheels, leaning forward heavily as the default drive position. maybe a kneel-stand bicycle default drive position. more like skate than a bicycle. or just lean forward. solid or flexible airless for true sustainability and robustness. electric power transmission as dynamic gear box, generator-motor, if you need to use the normal pedal position, half-way between the wheels. also double electric motors-generators at the wheel hubs can be the breaks, no other than regen breaking required. you can also charge a battery at same time and optionally use a battery in the drive train.
90%+ of riders will never touch their drivetrain other than basic maintenance (if that). No need to worry about the next thing not being compatible with established derailleur standards.
Low rise bars look disgusting, looks like XC. 50mm rise seems to be a nice middle ground.
2 speed hub with a 6 speed casette on the rear giving you 12 gears? would that not work?
Well U said 1 X 13 ....how about 1 X 14 with Rohloff ? U didn't say what kind of gears....
That photo couldn't have been taken in 1993, the LTS wasn't available then as it's racing debut was in 1995.
... its* debut (it's = it is)
The next big trend for non electric bikes could well be going back to a 2x drive train. the benifits of a smaller rear cassette, shorter derailleur and felxability (flexibility, opps) with fitting most frames could make the 1x trend look like a fad.
What the hell is "felxability"?
Maybe I should have put compatability.
..but heh, fexlability comes with two pints ant half a bottle of wine, my finger to brain coordination was rather too "flexible" as of wrighting😁
The only way non-derailleur drivetrains will succeed is if there is a standardized, non-proprietary mounting solution.
Love to send pics of my custom rig
Gearbox for me. No chain, sealed motor/box, low/no maintenance. Seems inevitable.
Why would anyone still be using tubes for anything besides dirt jumps or bmx?
Turbolito 🤘😍
Tubolito*
Rotor have 13 speed for road and Mtb.
3:30 ye, because frame makers arestruggling... this is the least of the issue since everyone already makes their own frame. Pinion has 100 partners tha tsupport their frame-type so clearly this isnt an issue
Why Bikeyoke, why?! It's the other way round!
Small tidbit. Zzyzx is an actual road in California located on the I-5 heading south to L.A. I passed through it all the time in the summers. I wonder what influence this had over the forks name...
I have a pinion & belt drive , I can't stand the noise of my sram 1 x 12 . It's great & maintenance free.
What bike is it on Kevin?
@@gmbntech An Olsen Lamb.
this is the ultimate MTB combo
Let them keep going and they'll have you in the bike shop every week doing maintenance on a over complicated bike. More parts equals more break downs.
I just want to have fun on my bike without having to mortgage something to buy it or maintain it.
That's why i always buy used. Keep my money local and out of the hands of greedy MFR's. Keepemcoming
The industry is trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. Clear indication that we are spending way too much money. I would not sacrifice 1% of efficiency for a different drive. Really just need to design a more protected derailleur, maybe up inside the chain stay.
Hm, I've been riding the Continental Aerothan for a while, they're insanely light and small - but I've never had so many punctures ... expensive rubbish!
Aerothan is made by Schwalbe, not Continental.
#quiz rotor was the first company to release 1x13 gears. And I got last weeks question right but wasn’t featured
shimano
At 4:40 you start complaining about the non-interchangeability of drivetrain components in non-standard bikes like those using gearboxes. It's only a problem if a small company goes bankrupt and you can't get spare parts anymore. On the other hand, I can't regard it as problematic that a Pinion bikes can't be transformed into SRAM Eagle shifted ones. Why should one ever want to do so? It's much more problematic with ebike-motors that don't allow for a cheap replacement by having non-standardized shells for each motor. Ah, whatever...
do we need it? no we dont. do we want it.. yeah.. everything that is new is what everybody wants. i personaly dont even look at fancy new things, because if i safe up long enough i can afford a 1000€ bike. so those things dont even qualify for me.
#askgmbntech , I own a Trek Fuel EXe 9.8 XT, and I recently purchased a Gen6 Trek Slash 9 with SRAM AXS T-Type.
Is it possible (worth the faf) to swap the Shimano cable system from the Fuel EXe to the Slash and the SRAM AXS system to the EXe ?
I’d wager if someone can afford a gearbox frame,
They aren’t riding the same bike for long enough to give an s about proprietary parts.
Sram*, not "shram". No "H" anywhere!
Aliexpress components - a cross between SRAM and sham.
The gearbox is a great idea, but possibly for just for commuter bikes. Not sure it’s going to be seen on mountain bikes. Same goes for the belt drive.
What are you talking about?
They already exist and apparently people like them.
@@UloPe did you read the comment!!!!????? They aren’t great for MTB’s. Have you read the reviews in them!?
I have a 1/11 normal drive terrain and don't think there is any reason to change it. It does everything I need it to, and I can replace parts rather cheaply. The only thing I like about electronic shifting is having less cables in front.
Looks very posh but what about the cost to the average rider as this kit will be very expensive & the same to maintain it…..not for your average rider & isn’t that what’s important.Lets keep things simple & don’t invent stuff just for the sake of it 🤔
I’ve been riding for 22 years and have heard the ‘gearboxes are the future’ spiel for about the same amount of time, without them ever coming to fruition on a large scale. Derailleur systems are so good these days that there’s just no need anymore for heavy, draggy, gearbox systems or wacky overly complicated stuff like that Lal contraption.
Usually those bikes are ridden by beardy weirdy wannabe engineers who spend more time philosophizing about the “ultimate bike” and how The Bike Industry is only serving their own interest than actually riding the damn thing.