I'm running Fedora & Gnome right now and the experience is so terrible and unstable I'm going back to X11 and a simple window manager. Before I use Wayland it has to support everything I do (which isn't much tbh) just as reliably as X11 or it's a downgrade, simple as that. They say that X11 is bad legacy code, but as a user I don't have to look at it, and considering they are still struggling to offer something better after 15+ years of development I'm not holding my breath.
I am using Fedora 41 (upgrade from 40) on Wayland and I have no issues with it. I don't understand the mindset of folks who are so emotionally attached to X11, like it's being betrayed by Wayland. Wayland compositor is better for modern displays and more secure. X11 was created decades ago and it getting no updates. Why stay with it unless you have a serious show-stopping feature or issue with Wayland? I don't know, frankly.
As I said, the switch is already happening. Instead of arguing, we need to learn to adapt. So far, nothing as you said “show-stopping” happened for me, except for some minor visual annoyance. I’m on Fedora 40 KDE Scientific Spin.
What is this problem with X11 security people harp on about? I can understand if it is on a shared server, but if people are using their personal workstations then what is the security problem? If you trust a program to run on your personal computer then why should you concerned with how X11 makes it vulnerable?
@@vfclistsOne small example: any app running in a flatpak or snap can escape the sandbox by interacting with other GUI apps (any X11 client, including the DE). So a malicious app cam trivially send a rm -rf ~
The 555 Nvidia drivers has finally added support for explicit sync, which you need Gnome 47 or Plasma 6+ to support. There was only 1-2 releases in the 555 drivers before they went to a new new feature branch driver(560) that had ONE release(which is problematic for me), before ANOTHER new feature branch set of drivers(565) that are still beta and will be for another month or two. The AMD open source drivers work well for gaming, but if you need ROCm support, that aint hte ticket, youre stuck with NVidia for GPU accelerated compute(and they do it well), its just a shame the drivers are a mess and they intentionally limit VRAM
My current thought process is that Linux is plagued with reproducibility issues, much like science. Not only are there issues with compatibility of Linux with hardware, the software present on the machine may not work nicely with each other. There are several methods seeking to improve reproducibility and minimizing breakage - immutable setups, declarative configurations, each with their pros and cons. Even with these strategies, it matters little if the display protocol is buggy. i do remember seeing others saying that distros switching to Wayland by default is speeding up Wayland development simply through prioritization. There are also the issues of standardization of Wayland protocols and the ecosystem. Even when the time comes that Wayland is robust, I hope that X11 is still maintained. It's healthier for Linux as a whole to have multiple ways of doing a specific thing.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I wonder if Wayland devs ever read comment sections to videos about Wayland?.. It would be cool to hear their thoughts and takes on the current state of Linux development.
@@juliaifrank I believe a few do. However, there are some abrasive personalities in the space and seemingly requisite drama off and on. While not a Wayland dev himself, I would encourage you to check out @BrodieRobertson as he has made videos talking about the status of Wayland for at least 2 years now. His other channel, @TechOverTea, does interviews with many Linux people including distro and desktop environment people working on Wayland support for their projects. I've learned a lot from him and comes highly recommended.
I still haven't been able to figure out what the sudden emergency is that would cause major distro maintainers to speed up the formerly glacial train wreck, which is Wayland, and send it careening into the station; whether its ablaze or not. They couldn't be doing at a worse possible time either because there's currently a massive swell of people looking into switching from Windows to Linux.
Yup, Zoom uses X API dedicated to screenshots to share the screen... This is the reason ScreenShare doesn't work on Wayland. They are working on the fix for almost the year now... My company will pay them anyway...
After 15 years you'd think that Wayland would be beyond the "alpha" stages and could get the usability and bugs under control. A MIB Fedora 40 / 41 install w/Wayland has issues with programs 7 years old. Forcing people from X11 to Wayland is like forcing users from a Volvo to a Pinto, Trabant, or Yugo. Volvo: "Were boxy but were good" vs "your safety isn't our problem" .
Running an all AMD system, Wayland has been flawless. I would not have been able to say that even two years ago. The only thing I am missing right now, is gamma control for display output. It's interesting to see what remains an issue from a comp/phy perspective.
For me, the problem is fcitx5 not supported on my compositor, dwl. Maybe I should switch compositor, but idk, seems like a hard work. Probably gonna switch when the holiday comes though.
I don't have a single problem running Ubuntu & Wayland on my HP Victus. The laptop is smooth as butter, fast, and responsive. Everything works flawlessly, including Nvidia sound, gestures, etc. I use the laptop mainly for web development, some Java, and a bunch of programs like various office apps, plus some graphic and video editing. Not sure why everyone on TH-cam claims something doesn't work. Zoom from the official repo works fine, Nvidia card is perfect, themes switch seamlessly, and the laptop sleeps and wakes up without any issues.
5:44 Security issues. If the Linux system is running as a single user desktop then why should security issues be a problem? Is it down to some belief that a program provided by one vendor will still some data from another program? Installing a program is like inviting someone to your home. If you can't trust them why invite them in? This an aspect I don't understand. It is understandable in the case of a shared server, but what relevance is to a single user desktop? It reminds of SPECTRE mitigations. If you trust the programs you are running on your personal laptop or desktop what is the use of these costly mitigations all the programs are for just yourself?
I really hope not. I have not had a pleasant experience with Wayland, but I think it is a transitional phase. I also rely on Linux for research computation. Nice to see others in a field talk about Linux.
Right?! Sometimes learning something new outside of research pulls you down a rabbit hole of excitement 😆 I totally agree - Wayland feels like a phase we just need to get through. Just like in research, Wayland’s development is a gradual, step-by-step journey. Both often start with big ideas, but practical progress can be slow. Great to connect with someone else in research who appreciates the quirks of Linux!
I didn't have problems to adapt to systemd nor did I struggled so much to understand and use different distros but getting used to wayland and adapt all my workflow to it was quite challenging. I'm currently on Hyprland recompiled with xwayland option turned off so it became 100% wayland, as more and more applications are being ported it doesn't feel as alien as it used to be. I'd say that for my use cases wayland is doing just fine!
Fedora 41 was just released on October 29th. The Workstation edition now only includes Wayland-based GNOME packages by default. X11 packages are still available in Fedora repositories but they might not be in future versions.
X11 was 28 years old, when Wayland was released. Wayland is now 12 years old. And it was in development in 4 years prior release. So the point that X11 was just old is no longer valid. Wayland itself soon will be outdated and will require to be replaced with something modern - new and well designed from the beginning.
Wayland is 17 years old. The whole thing is a joke. Its like green energy. The reality doesn't match the hype but the powers that be want to force everyone into it.
Do you know how Wayland got started? Wayland got started with a initiative of: "X11 itself soon will be outdated and will require to be replaced with something modern - new and well designed from the beginning."
@@xard64Wayland started when X11 developers were so sick of problems of X11, were considering X12, and decided it was too much of a hassle than to start out clean from compatibility obligation.
My first serious brush of with Wayland was in 2022 on Nvidia. Since then the Drivers, Wayland but also KDe plasma (which i'm a big fan of) progressed so much that my production rig is usable on day to day. I had to forego some legacy X11 app, had also to forgo Plasma remembering some of my apps windows positions on the desktop (i use the tiling function to quickly assign my windows now so it is okaish). No real showstopper anymore and my multi monitors (multi refresh rates) set pup is now well managed by wayland (so i count it as a plus)
Kwin of KDE (Plasma 6) is one of the only few compositors I feel is almost "Feature complete". I've heard lots of stories going around about missing features, lagginess, unable to screencast, accessibility options missing, but KDE seems to have all. even the remote desktop. It's currently the only one I've been able to find usable, especially when you have mixed DPI screens (I've got one very HiDPI where scaling needs to be at least 125% and another very low DPI where 100% is fine). Together with it's options to scale only xwayland applications that actually support it, it is one of the only compositors that scales almost all applications without ever seeing fuzziness. Plasma 6 has been the only DE/way of using Linux I've been able to keep up for longer than 3 months in the past decade that I've tried a lot of different Linux distros.
Wayland simply doesn't work for me yet, given some of my custom things are using xorg specific things to which there either isn't a replacement for at all, or the replacement method is way more complicated. Something like xdotool, there might be some similar program for Wayland, but half of the functions i would use it for won't even exist in Wayland for "security reasons". I could accomplish some if the same functions, but now I'm required to write an entire kwin effect, or maybe an easier kwin script for some things just to achieve the same thing as one xdotool command. As long as this remains the case, Wayland isn't ready for me. However, for the average Joe doing some browsing maybe docs or excels here and there it absolutely is
Okay. I arrived here after watching your video explaining Wayland and most other Wayland-related videos after it. Congratulations on the work, I've really enjoyed them. When you were talking about moving to Wayland forcing faster migration of applications to it, it got me thinking: what is the big advantage of moving to Wayland? Is this performance difference so significant? Even more so as the faster hardware gets, the less we notice those differences. I'm probably missing some other advantages here. What other advantages are there? Couldn't anyone achieve those advantages on X11? I would like to have a better understanding of why distros choose to swap from very old but very tested, stable, and established software to one that will require so much work, not only from the Wayland developers but also for client application developers. My personal experience in Ubuntu 24.04 AMD + GNOME, where the Linux desktop should be the most work out of the box, screen sharing was a nightmare. I would also love to see you share some of your usage of those scientific applications and their problems. You mentioned in this video that one of them was bugging on zooming. I would like to see a screen recording of it.
Claude Ai 3.5 Sonet on this: Let me break down the advantages of Wayland over X11 and address your concerns: Key Advantages of Wayland: 1. Security & Architecture - Wayland has a more secure architecture by design - each application is isolated and can't spy on or interfere with others - X11 allows any application to log keystrokes, take screenshots, or inject fake input events system-wide, which is a significant security risk - In X11, all applications can read each other's buffers, which is problematic for password managers and sensitive content 2. Modern Display Technology Support - Better support for HiDPI displays and mixed DPI setups - More precise handling of multiple monitors with different refresh rates - Native support for variable refresh rate (FreeSync/G-Sync) - More accurate color management 3. Technical Benefits - Eliminates screen tearing without requiring compositor tricks - More efficient GPU usage and memory management - Lower latency due to fewer layers between applications and the display - Better touch and gesture support Regarding your specific points: 1. Performance: While raw performance isn't the primary advantage, Wayland's efficiency becomes more relevant with modern hardware features like HiDPI displays and high refresh rates. 2. Stability concerns: Your Ubuntu 24.04 screen sharing experience highlights a valid point. Wayland is still maturing, particularly for features that were deeply integrated into X11. However, these issues are gradually being resolved. Screen sharing now works well through Portal APIs, though application support varies. 3. Why make the switch: The fundamental issue is that X11's architecture, designed in the 1980s, cannot properly handle modern requirements without increasingly complex workarounds. Some examples: - Secure isolation between applications - Proper multi-monitor support with different refresh rates - Touch input handling - Hardware acceleration without tearing Could these be added to X11? Theoretically yes, but it would require such fundamental changes that it would essentially mean creating a new system - which is exactly what Wayland is. The primary motivation isn't performance - it's about having a foundation that correctly handles modern use cases by design rather than through layers of patches and workarounds.
Thank you for the engagement with my videos and taking the time to write your detailed thoughts! As for the screen recordings, if I ever encounter any issues in the future I’ll remember to screen record ( like the screen tearing I showed in the video). Some issues I talked about happened way back before I even got an idea to talk about Wayland on my channel, so I did not think to record it. Some issues, as I mentioned, I have not experienced myself, but got from research on Reddit, blog posts, etc.
I'm a regular Wayland user but I can definitely say that there are still some issues regarding 3rd party apps which do not make the effort of properly handling XDG portals or Wayland protocols. One common example is Discord which is half broken right now with desktop sharing, so you have to use alternative clients like Vencord to palliate with this. Some apps which are X11 exclusive also struggle to capture the mouse, but this is more of a X11 -> Wayland translation problem with Xwayland. Another example would be the Unreal Engine editor which does not respect the user's preference regarding fractional desktop scaling, so you have to compensate in the editor to get back to a usable interface. I have to say that Gnome feels smoother and more reactive on Wayland than on X11, and I happen to get better performance on it than on X11. I think users like me which have an Intel iGPU + NVIDIA dGPU in a mux configuration do not have as much problems as those who only have an NVIDIA dGPU though, or at least that's my personal observation based on what I've read online.
Thanks for sharing your experience! It’s interesting to hear how different setups, like Intel + NVIDIA in mux mode, perform on Wayland. Oh, and the Discord… Great points!
Im sorry but using the latest drivers and wayland video bridge which should be default on kde 5.27 and gnome 46 and above they don't exist, maybe the graphics tablets still have issues but not really, for example using arch and the latest kde non of em exept the remite desktop exist
So from my perspective compatibility isn't really a problem of Wayland but a problem of the software not being compatible. Wayland is around for quite some time now. If developers don't want to port their software towards Wayland, there will be alternatives. Graphics and performance issues have pretty much mostly resolved in the last years. I mean we are already talking about dual GPU cases which aren't quite common. Those even require own specific optimizations in the kernel for power targets, scheduling and more. Not to mention applications need to handle multiple GPUs properly which APIs like OpenGL weren't even designed for. In the meantime you can usually deactivate one of the GPUs in the bios and workaround such an issue. Functionality issues are mostly solved or currently being solved using libportal. For example screen recording, capturing and streaming is all handled via libportal as well as remote sessions. So as long as your compositor implements libportal, you are good to go. The only thing missing at the moment is global shortcuts and an API for screen readers. The first one should end up in libportal too. The second one might not be planned to be part of libportal but I could be wrong with this. Hardware compatibility seems pretty much a question of proprietary drivers which can either be reverse-engineered, ported or the hardware can be replaced by more open or compatible options which usually exist. I'm using Wayland for years now and we are already at the stage of getting features that can't be matched with X11. For example HDR, VRR in multi-monitor setups and application window isolation of course. So at some point distros simply need to make the switch with its default if ever.
Endeavour has Wayland by default. I didn't notice this at first. I have no problem with the Jitsi meeting software. Some versions of LibreOffice still have a strange selection of outdated icons for Wayland.
It's mind-boggling how many people still think "X11 is the best" while it was experienced X11 developers decided they need to do Wayland instead of X12.
I struggled a lot testing Wayland with different Linux distro. Now, I am happy with Fedora 41 and Nvidia. To have less problems, use a good distro and a good window manager. Gnome and Kde offer the best Wayland experience. Sway and Hyprland are the best supported wm. I also like the recent Cosmic desktop, running nice. I did read Wayland exists since 10 years. But yes, we talk a lot about it nowadays. I think Wayland is transition. Remember when we were using Ms Dos, Windows 3, Xp...things are getting better with evolution. With Wayland you can use tiling, stacking... whatever you like. Because there is freedom and choice with Gnu/Linux, we all encounter different experiences. I use Wayland for more security than X11. The devs of X11 and others are working on Wayland.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I’m also using Fedora and NVIDIA on my workstation at uni. So far everything works well, except for some minor visual annoyance in the sleeping mode (screen tearing) that is only apparent when the monitor is in the portrait mode.
You have described my frustrations with Linux in the first 3 minutes :( I love Open Source and Linux, but sometimes it makes me feel so unproductive at work. I mean, troubleshooting something that doesn't have anything to do with my actual job is just tiring. Specially GUI issues! I work as a Machine Learning Engineer btw, and I like to consider myself a Physics enthusiast :) Your channel is awesome!
Thank you!! So glad to have a fellow physics enthusiast and ML engineer here! :) I’m just starting out with ML myself, learning to apply it to my physics research, so it’s great to connect with someone who’s in the field. Appreciate your support!
One thing thats saved me a lot of time is a terminal window on my other monitor with "journalctl -f" just running. It updates automatically. If something weird happens I look over and look at whats up. If I am unsure, I google it, if that dont work chatgpt it. Usually I find my way to the solution. I am a newbie too, but I have no training in any of this. It's been quite interesting.
X11 had definitely earned its place! I’m not exactly cheering for either side - it’s just the reality that Linux display protocols are shifting, so we all have to adapt.
@juliaifrank it's likely many distros will offer both instead of just discarding X11. zorin all ready offers the option to sign in with X11 or wayland on the login screen. Offering both is likely the way other distros need to go as well.
If you're not using computing environments as a *tool* to do your physics research, you're not doing physics research. Stop playing with bleeding edge Wayland. Revert to X11 and get your work done. If Wayland doesn't provide a useful tool, leave it to computer people.
Well said! It’s also true for many other things in life. I think it’s in our nature to fear and resist big changes-it’s almost like a built-in safeguard that keeps us grounded and cautious. But at the same time, change often drives progress, even if it’s met with initial resistance. It’s a balance that sometimes helps prevent outlandish ideas from taking over.
My biggest issue with X11 was network transparency. It is a feature that is helpful in some scenarios, especially in testing environments, offers a way to create compatibility with embedded or remote devices, but quickly becomes a security issue that can be exploited to log keys, and more. I hope it will remain an option in the future.
I believe the Wayland team have repeatedly said that they have no intentions of ever supporting network transparency. Every time it gets raised, they insist that you should install VNC or some equivalent. Out of curiosity, how does network transparency differ from something like VNC? I don't understand the difference so their suggestion has always seemed reasonable to me but I still occasionally see people mention that lacking network transparency is a deal-breaker.
I suppose that native network transparency of X11 works and integrates with the system operation at a much lower level, as the display, keyboard, and mouse inputs are forwarded over the network during remote session. VNC and other third party remote access tools work at a higher level. And therefore does not have the same level of deep integration with OS and other applications as well X11 has.
In short the transition to Wayland is like the transition to green energy. It sounds nice in theory but the reality doesn't match the promise and the hype. Very typical of our times🙄🤔😀😀
@@kayleekayt3306 Doesn't the fact that after 17 years Wayland is still not a replacement for X11 mean something to you? Corporations have turned the open source environment into a place of controlling SJWs in search of people with errant behaviours to fix instead instead being sharply focused on their everyday needs. They are so toxic. If it is so important how has it taken 17 years and it is still not ready to use without paper cuts? You are dealing with people of a mindset that "if you don't do it our way, you are certainly not getting help from us". What is the use of such a mindset to everyday computer users who just want to get work done then go on to do other things?
Yeah, it seems we will have to go back to windows to do the things that "modern" linux solutions (Wayland) will not be able to do... I haven't used windows for decades, never thought I would come to this :)
Wayland? You are a physics PhD student. That means, Science, and you do not know what Wayland really present? No wander you have those issues. The name Charles Bishop Weyland will show you what the name Wayland really stands for, but let's try to help to get to the right mindset of how to approach this. Any OS (Operating System) must have compatible drivers so the OS will be able to communicate with third part software and hardware. Most of hardware and software are written for Mac and Windows. Not Linux. Macs come first for it's stability because when buying Mac, you get a running computer that everything is in it and it is tailored for your exact needs regardless the software. Windows give you much more freedom in that case, so while we can verity of things running on the pc, we also have risks. Still those two have the OS versions for certain period they have and that's it, and still, both can, and will crash here and there. Linux on the other hand, have many distro, and each distro fits its maker mindset, not the public. From time to time we see distros like Zorin OS that really made things easy and still, without a Linux software and drivers that were written on a specific Linux distro and third party software that ere written specifically on Linux and for Different Linux version, you will always run into problem with. You look like a Russian (your eyes) or something from that east Europe area, and you have some accent so you probably speak the language, you also speak English very well. What would happen if you suddenly appeared in Yemen where they only speak Arabic and nothing else and you do not know Arabic at all? Big problem!!! So let's Compared to computer language. Russian - Mac English - Windows Arabic - Linux The mindset is totally different. That's why we are close to WW3. The same with Wayland, and Linux in general. It is like WW3. different software and hardware do not agree with each other because there's no diplomat translator (Drivers) who know the cloture (programing) of all of those lands (OS and Distros). When you'll have this set up, you won't have any issue. There is a way to set it up, but no one will bother to do so right now because people chase after external things instead off benefiting humanity. Julia, I hope it was clear to understand. This is exactly what goes on with Wayland and Linux.
Thank you for your detailed comment. I appreciate you taking the time to engage with the video and share your perspective. To clarify, my educational background and origins are not relevant to the technical discussion at hand. The aim of my video was to address Wayland and Linux compatibility challenges based on both personal experiences and feedback from the community. Everyone interested in tech and Linux deserves a space to learn, explore, and share-no matter their background. I highlighted in the video that many of Wayland’s issues stem from its open-source nature, relying on community efforts rather than corporate backing like macOS or Windows. This does mean progress takes time, dedication, and collaboration. I do recognize your passion for the topic, and it’s clear you have strong knowledge of Linux’s unique challenges. If you’re ready to invest your time or expertise into tackling even one of the issues the Linux ecosystem faces, you could make a real impact.
I'm running Fedora & Gnome right now and the experience is so terrible and unstable I'm going back to X11 and a simple window manager. Before I use Wayland it has to support everything I do (which isn't much tbh) just as reliably as X11 or it's a downgrade, simple as that. They say that X11 is bad legacy code, but as a user I don't have to look at it, and considering they are still struggling to offer something better after 15+ years of development I'm not holding my breath.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
I am using Fedora 41 (upgrade from 40) on Wayland and I have no issues with it. I don't understand the mindset of folks who are so emotionally attached to X11, like it's being betrayed by Wayland. Wayland compositor is better for modern displays and more secure. X11 was created decades ago and it getting no updates. Why stay with it unless you have a serious show-stopping feature or issue with Wayland? I don't know, frankly.
As I said, the switch is already happening. Instead of arguing, we need to learn to adapt. So far, nothing as you said “show-stopping” happened for me, except for some minor visual annoyance. I’m on Fedora 40 KDE Scientific Spin.
What is this problem with X11 security people harp on about? I can understand if it is on a shared server, but if people are using their personal workstations then what is the security problem?
If you trust a program to run on your personal computer then why should you concerned with how X11 makes it vulnerable?
@@vfclists "Security" is just a magic word software companies (and "Big FOSS" maintainers) utilize to justify miserable user experience.
@@vfclistsOne small example:
any app running in a flatpak or snap can escape the sandbox by interacting with other GUI apps (any X11 client, including the DE). So a malicious app cam trivially send a rm -rf ~
I see more people defending long standing wayland bugs as features than people crying about X11.
The 555 Nvidia drivers has finally added support for explicit sync, which you need Gnome 47 or Plasma 6+ to support. There was only 1-2 releases in the 555 drivers before they went to a new new feature branch driver(560) that had ONE release(which is problematic for me), before ANOTHER new feature branch set of drivers(565) that are still beta and will be for another month or two.
The AMD open source drivers work well for gaming, but if you need ROCm support, that aint hte ticket, youre stuck with NVidia for GPU accelerated compute(and they do it well), its just a shame the drivers are a mess and they intentionally limit VRAM
My current thought process is that Linux is plagued with reproducibility issues, much like science. Not only are there issues with compatibility of Linux with hardware, the software present on the machine may not work nicely with each other. There are several methods seeking to improve reproducibility and minimizing breakage - immutable setups, declarative configurations, each with their pros and cons. Even with these strategies, it matters little if the display protocol is buggy.
i do remember seeing others saying that distros switching to Wayland by default is speeding up Wayland development simply through prioritization. There are also the issues of standardization of Wayland protocols and the ecosystem. Even when the time comes that Wayland is robust, I hope that X11 is still maintained. It's healthier for Linux as a whole to have multiple ways of doing a specific thing.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I wonder if Wayland devs ever read comment sections to videos about Wayland?.. It would be cool to hear their thoughts and takes on the current state of Linux development.
@@juliaifrank I believe a few do. However, there are some abrasive personalities in the space and seemingly requisite drama off and on.
While not a Wayland dev himself, I would encourage you to check out @BrodieRobertson as he has made videos talking about the status of Wayland for at least 2 years now. His other channel, @TechOverTea, does interviews with many Linux people including distro and desktop environment people working on Wayland support for their projects. I've learned a lot from him and comes highly recommended.
starting to binge watch everything now... your channel topics interests me a lot.
I’m glad you like what I’m sharing:) Thanks!
Xfce user, so no Wayland. And I think that's a good thing as how many issues Wayland still has after such a long development.
So you haven't heard about the plans for Wayland support in Xfce? :)
@@sparthir Of course I have, but that's still far from ready😉
Really enjoyed this video, subscribed !
Thank you!!☺️
I still haven't been able to figure out what the sudden emergency is that would cause major distro maintainers to speed up the formerly glacial train wreck, which is Wayland, and send it careening into the station; whether its ablaze or not. They couldn't be doing at a worse possible time either because there's currently a massive swell of people looking into switching from Windows to Linux.
Yup, Zoom uses X API dedicated to screenshots to share the screen... This is the reason ScreenShare doesn't work on Wayland. They are working on the fix for almost the year now... My company will pay them anyway...
like others have noted, wayland has been great with gnome and fedora
After 15 years you'd think that Wayland would be beyond the "alpha" stages and could get the usability and bugs under control. A MIB Fedora 40 / 41 install w/Wayland has issues with programs 7 years old. Forcing people from X11 to Wayland is like forcing users from a Volvo to a Pinto, Trabant, or Yugo. Volvo: "Were boxy but were good" vs "your safety isn't our problem" .
Running an all AMD system, Wayland has been flawless. I would not have been able to say that even two years ago. The only thing I am missing right now, is gamma control for display output. It's interesting to see what remains an issue from a comp/phy perspective.
For me, the problem is fcitx5 not supported on my compositor, dwl. Maybe I should switch compositor, but idk, seems like a hard work. Probably gonna switch when the holiday comes though.
I don't have a single problem running Ubuntu & Wayland on my HP Victus. The laptop is smooth as butter, fast, and responsive. Everything works flawlessly, including Nvidia sound, gestures, etc. I use the laptop mainly for web development, some Java, and a bunch of programs like various office apps, plus some graphic and video editing. Not sure why everyone on TH-cam claims something doesn't work. Zoom from the official repo works fine, Nvidia card is perfect, themes switch seamlessly, and the laptop sleeps and wakes up without any issues.
Thanks for sharing this! 👍 I’m glad everything is working nicely for you. Let’s hope it will become the norm soon rather than an exception.
So if I understood this correctly, Wayland basically takes a chunk of an old X11 code, processes it, then outputs same X11 code?
5:44 Security issues. If the Linux system is running as a single user desktop then why should security issues be a problem? Is it down to some belief that a program provided by one vendor will still some data from another program?
Installing a program is like inviting someone to your home. If you can't trust them why invite them in?
This an aspect I don't understand. It is understandable in the case of a shared server, but what relevance is to a single user desktop?
It reminds of SPECTRE mitigations. If you trust the programs you are running on your personal laptop or desktop what is the use of these costly mitigations all the programs are for just yourself?
For the same reason you don't run everything with root (I hope you don't)
Speculative vulnerabilities could also affect apps running in JavaScript, so you also have to trust every website you visit with JS
typical mid level windows user mentality
I really hope not. I have not had a pleasant experience with Wayland, but I think it is a transitional phase. I also rely on Linux for research computation. Nice to see others in a field talk about Linux.
Right?! Sometimes learning something new outside of research pulls you down a rabbit hole of excitement 😆
I totally agree - Wayland feels like a phase we just need to get through. Just like in research, Wayland’s development is a gradual, step-by-step journey. Both often start with big ideas, but practical progress can be slow.
Great to connect with someone else in research who appreciates the quirks of Linux!
I didn't have problems to adapt to systemd nor did I struggled so much to understand and use different distros but getting used to wayland and adapt all my workflow to it was quite challenging. I'm currently on Hyprland recompiled with xwayland option turned off so it became 100% wayland, as more and more applications are being ported it doesn't feel as alien as it used to be. I'd say that for my use cases wayland is doing just fine!
Thank you for sharing your experience!
Fedora 41 was just released on October 29th. The Workstation edition now only includes Wayland-based GNOME packages by default. X11 packages are still available in Fedora repositories but they might not be in future versions.
Thanks for the update! It seems like the switch to Wayland is happening faster and faster.
X11 was 28 years old, when Wayland was released. Wayland is now 12 years old. And it was in development in 4 years prior release. So the point that X11 was just old is no longer valid. Wayland itself soon will be outdated and will require to be replaced with something modern - new and well designed from the beginning.
Wayland is 17 years old. The whole thing is a joke. Its like green energy. The reality doesn't match the hype but the powers that be want to force everyone into it.
It's already here. Check out the XKCD-927 standard.
Do you know how Wayland got started?
Wayland got started with a initiative of: "X11 itself soon will be outdated and will require to be replaced with something modern - new and well designed from the beginning."
@@xard64Wayland started when X11 developers were so sick of problems of X11, were considering X12, and decided it was too much of a hassle than to start out clean from compatibility obligation.
@@xard64 Wayland is neither new nor well-designed.
My first serious brush of with Wayland was in 2022 on Nvidia. Since then the Drivers, Wayland but also KDe plasma (which i'm a big fan of) progressed so much that my production rig is usable on day to day. I had to forego some legacy X11 app, had also to forgo Plasma remembering some of my apps windows positions on the desktop (i use the tiling function to quickly assign my windows now so it is okaish). No real showstopper anymore and my multi monitors (multi refresh rates) set pup is now well managed by wayland (so i count it as a plus)
Kwin of KDE (Plasma 6) is one of the only few compositors I feel is almost "Feature complete". I've heard lots of stories going around about missing features, lagginess, unable to screencast, accessibility options missing, but KDE seems to have all. even the remote desktop. It's currently the only one I've been able to find usable, especially when you have mixed DPI screens (I've got one very HiDPI where scaling needs to be at least 125% and another very low DPI where 100% is fine). Together with it's options to scale only xwayland applications that actually support it, it is one of the only compositors that scales almost all applications without ever seeing fuzziness. Plasma 6 has been the only DE/way of using Linux I've been able to keep up for longer than 3 months in the past decade that I've tried a lot of different Linux distros.
On the Raspberry Pi, old applications developed for X11 talk seamlessly with the X-Wayland compositor and works fine...
Wayland simply doesn't work for me yet, given some of my custom things are using xorg specific things to which there either isn't a replacement for at all, or the replacement method is way more complicated.
Something like xdotool, there might be some similar program for Wayland, but half of the functions i would use it for won't even exist in Wayland for "security reasons".
I could accomplish some if the same functions, but now I'm required to write an entire kwin effect, or maybe an easier kwin script for some things just to achieve the same thing as one xdotool command.
As long as this remains the case, Wayland isn't ready for me. However, for the average Joe doing some browsing maybe docs or excels here and there it absolutely is
I forgot to mention ... I SUBd
Thank you! ☺️
Okay. I arrived here after watching your video explaining Wayland and most other Wayland-related videos after it. Congratulations on the work, I've really enjoyed them. When you were talking about moving to Wayland forcing faster migration of applications to it, it got me thinking: what is the big advantage of moving to Wayland? Is this performance difference so significant? Even more so as the faster hardware gets, the less we notice those differences. I'm probably missing some other advantages here. What other advantages are there? Couldn't anyone achieve those advantages on X11? I would like to have a better understanding of why distros choose to swap from very old but very tested, stable, and established software to one that will require so much work, not only from the Wayland developers but also for client application developers. My personal experience in Ubuntu 24.04 AMD + GNOME, where the Linux desktop should be the most work out of the box, screen sharing was a nightmare.
I would also love to see you share some of your usage of those scientific applications and their problems. You mentioned in this video that one of them was bugging on zooming. I would like to see a screen recording of it.
Claude Ai 3.5 Sonet on this:
Let me break down the advantages of Wayland over X11 and address your concerns:
Key Advantages of Wayland:
1. Security & Architecture
- Wayland has a more secure architecture by design - each application is isolated and can't spy on or interfere with others
- X11 allows any application to log keystrokes, take screenshots, or inject fake input events system-wide, which is a significant security risk
- In X11, all applications can read each other's buffers, which is problematic for password managers and sensitive content
2. Modern Display Technology Support
- Better support for HiDPI displays and mixed DPI setups
- More precise handling of multiple monitors with different refresh rates
- Native support for variable refresh rate (FreeSync/G-Sync)
- More accurate color management
3. Technical Benefits
- Eliminates screen tearing without requiring compositor tricks
- More efficient GPU usage and memory management
- Lower latency due to fewer layers between applications and the display
- Better touch and gesture support
Regarding your specific points:
1. Performance: While raw performance isn't the primary advantage, Wayland's efficiency becomes more relevant with modern hardware features like HiDPI displays and high refresh rates.
2. Stability concerns: Your Ubuntu 24.04 screen sharing experience highlights a valid point. Wayland is still maturing, particularly for features that were deeply integrated into X11. However, these issues are gradually being resolved. Screen sharing now works well through Portal APIs, though application support varies.
3. Why make the switch: The fundamental issue is that X11's architecture, designed in the 1980s, cannot properly handle modern requirements without increasingly complex workarounds. Some examples:
- Secure isolation between applications
- Proper multi-monitor support with different refresh rates
- Touch input handling
- Hardware acceleration without tearing
Could these be added to X11? Theoretically yes, but it would require such fundamental changes that it would essentially mean creating a new system - which is exactly what Wayland is.
The primary motivation isn't performance - it's about having a foundation that correctly handles modern use cases by design rather than through layers of patches and workarounds.
Thank you for the engagement with my videos and taking the time to write your detailed thoughts!
As for the screen recordings, if I ever encounter any issues in the future I’ll remember to screen record ( like the screen tearing I showed in the video). Some issues I talked about happened way back before I even got an idea to talk about Wayland on my channel, so I did not think to record it. Some issues, as I mentioned, I have not experienced myself, but got from research on Reddit, blog posts, etc.
I'm a regular Wayland user but I can definitely say that there are still some issues regarding 3rd party apps which do not make the effort of properly handling XDG portals or Wayland protocols. One common example is Discord which is half broken right now with desktop sharing, so you have to use alternative clients like Vencord to palliate with this. Some apps which are X11 exclusive also struggle to capture the mouse, but this is more of a X11 -> Wayland translation problem with Xwayland. Another example would be the Unreal Engine editor which does not respect the user's preference regarding fractional desktop scaling, so you have to compensate in the editor to get back to a usable interface.
I have to say that Gnome feels smoother and more reactive on Wayland than on X11, and I happen to get better performance on it than on X11. I think users like me which have an Intel iGPU + NVIDIA dGPU in a mux configuration do not have as much problems as those who only have an NVIDIA dGPU though, or at least that's my personal observation based on what I've read online.
Thanks for sharing your experience! It’s interesting to hear how different setups, like Intel + NVIDIA in mux mode, perform on Wayland. Oh, and the Discord… Great points!
Im sorry but using the latest drivers and wayland video bridge which should be default on kde 5.27 and gnome 46 and above they don't exist, maybe the graphics tablets still have issues but not really, for example using arch and the latest kde non of em exept the remite desktop exist
So from my perspective compatibility isn't really a problem of Wayland but a problem of the software not being compatible. Wayland is around for quite some time now. If developers don't want to port their software towards Wayland, there will be alternatives.
Graphics and performance issues have pretty much mostly resolved in the last years. I mean we are already talking about dual GPU cases which aren't quite common. Those even require own specific optimizations in the kernel for power targets, scheduling and more. Not to mention applications need to handle multiple GPUs properly which APIs like OpenGL weren't even designed for. In the meantime you can usually deactivate one of the GPUs in the bios and workaround such an issue.
Functionality issues are mostly solved or currently being solved using libportal. For example screen recording, capturing and streaming is all handled via libportal as well as remote sessions. So as long as your compositor implements libportal, you are good to go. The only thing missing at the moment is global shortcuts and an API for screen readers. The first one should end up in libportal too. The second one might not be planned to be part of libportal but I could be wrong with this.
Hardware compatibility seems pretty much a question of proprietary drivers which can either be reverse-engineered, ported or the hardware can be replaced by more open or compatible options which usually exist.
I'm using Wayland for years now and we are already at the stage of getting features that can't be matched with X11. For example HDR, VRR in multi-monitor setups and application window isolation of course. So at some point distros simply need to make the switch with its default if ever.
Endeavour has Wayland by default. I didn't notice this at first.
I have no problem with the Jitsi meeting software. Some versions of LibreOffice still have a strange selection of outdated icons for Wayland.
So, it looks like just a case of a visual annoyance for you at most. Glad to hear!
@ Yes. So far everything is working, with some graphical glitches. I'm surprised.
It's mind-boggling how many people still think "X11 is the best" while it was experienced X11 developers decided they need to do Wayland instead of X12.
I don't think it's the best. Xfce is my favorite desktop which as you know, has no Wayland. Yet at least.
Using sway and wayland keybindings works perfectly sway-atomic fedora 41. I also have 34keys keyboard nicenano with zmk firmware.
Glad to hear that you have it all working smoothly!
I struggled a lot testing Wayland with different Linux distro. Now, I am happy with Fedora 41 and Nvidia. To have less problems, use a good distro and a good window manager. Gnome and Kde offer the best Wayland experience. Sway and Hyprland are the best supported wm. I also like the recent Cosmic desktop, running nice. I did read Wayland exists since 10 years. But yes, we talk a lot about it nowadays. I think Wayland is transition. Remember when we were using Ms Dos, Windows 3, Xp...things are getting better with evolution. With Wayland you can use tiling, stacking... whatever you like. Because there is freedom and choice with Gnu/Linux, we all encounter different experiences. I use Wayland for more security than X11. The devs of X11 and others are working on Wayland.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I’m also using Fedora and NVIDIA on my workstation at uni. So far everything works well, except for some minor visual annoyance in the sleeping mode (screen tearing) that is only apparent when the monitor is in the portrait mode.
Very interesting Julia. My own personal experience is mixed. Although I have just installed Fedora 41 Plasma and all is okay.
Thank you! I’m on Fedora 40 Plasma.
Most of the time it's a skill issue
If is not broken don't fix it. Never understood the motivation for wayland, its just grouping a client server in 1 module. Right? Wy?
Whats Wayland?
You have described my frustrations with Linux in the first 3 minutes :(
I love Open Source and Linux, but sometimes it makes me feel so unproductive at work. I mean, troubleshooting something that doesn't have anything to do with my actual job is just tiring. Specially GUI issues!
I work as a Machine Learning Engineer btw, and I like to consider myself a Physics enthusiast :) Your channel is awesome!
Thank you!!
So glad to have a fellow physics enthusiast and ML engineer here! :) I’m just starting out with ML myself, learning to apply it to my physics research, so it’s great to connect with someone who’s in the field. Appreciate your support!
One thing thats saved me a lot of time is a terminal window on my other monitor with "journalctl -f" just running. It updates automatically. If something weird happens I look over and look at whats up. If I am unsure, I google it, if that dont work chatgpt it. Usually I find my way to the solution. I am a newbie too, but I have no training in any of this. It's been quite interesting.
Personally, I am an X11 boy for life.
X11 had definitely earned its place!
I’m not exactly cheering for either side - it’s just the reality that Linux display protocols are shifting, so we all have to adapt.
@juliaifrank it's likely many distros will offer both instead of just discarding X11. zorin all ready offers the option to sign in with X11 or wayland on the login screen. Offering both is likely the way other distros need to go as well.
Right, until it's gone from every distro. I guess then you'll switch over to Windows? Or maybe use Xfce, which won't be updated to Wayland until 2057.
I agree. I am like kinda love wayland but it's still not mature enough...
@@jmacdonoit wont. debian has no plans to remove x11.
If you're not using computing environments as a *tool* to do your physics research, you're not doing physics research. Stop playing with bleeding edge Wayland. Revert to X11 and get your work done. If Wayland doesn't provide a useful tool, leave it to computer people.
Force it - people will hate it and fight it tooth & nail but change is necessary. I guess it was the same with systemd.
Well said! It’s also true for many other things in life. I think it’s in our nature to fear and resist big changes-it’s almost like a built-in safeguard that keeps us grounded and cautious. But at the same time, change often drives progress, even if it’s met with initial resistance. It’s a balance that sometimes helps prevent outlandish ideas from taking over.
My biggest issue with X11 was network transparency. It is a feature that is helpful in some scenarios, especially in testing environments, offers a way to create compatibility with embedded or remote devices, but quickly becomes a security issue that can be exploited to log keys, and more. I hope it will remain an option in the future.
I believe the Wayland team have repeatedly said that they have no intentions of ever supporting network transparency. Every time it gets raised, they insist that you should install VNC or some equivalent. Out of curiosity, how does network transparency differ from something like VNC? I don't understand the difference so their suggestion has always seemed reasonable to me but I still occasionally see people mention that lacking network transparency is a deal-breaker.
I suppose that native network transparency of X11 works and integrates with the system operation at a much lower level, as the display, keyboard, and mouse inputs are forwarded over the network during remote session.
VNC and other third party remote access tools work at a higher level. And therefore does not have the same level of deep integration with OS and other applications as well X11 has.
This is why W11 is the best, we don't have to deal with thus stuff.
😀 the switch from x11 to wayland is not that easy. some apps don't work well yet, but for me the pain in windows is higher
I was only kidding, I hope. I only recently have gotten free after a very very long time on the torture rack that is windows..
In short the transition to Wayland is like the transition to green energy. It sounds nice in theory but the reality doesn't match the promise and the hype. Very typical of our times🙄🤔😀😀
all these comparisons to green energy are such a self own. It just shows your ignorance.
@@kayleekayt3306 Doesn't the fact that after 17 years Wayland is still not a replacement for X11 mean something to you? Corporations have turned the open source environment into a place of controlling SJWs in search of people with errant behaviours to fix instead instead being sharply focused on their everyday needs. They are so toxic.
If it is so important how has it taken 17 years and it is still not ready to use without paper cuts?
You are dealing with people of a mindset that "if you don't do it our way, you are certainly not getting help from us". What is the use of such a mindset to everyday computer users who just want to get work done then go on to do other things?
Yeah, it seems we will have to go back to windows to do the things that "modern" linux solutions (Wayland) will not be able to do... I haven't used windows for decades, never thought I would come to this :)
hihihi 2100 :)
Wayland? You are a physics PhD student. That means, Science, and you do not know what Wayland really present? No wander you have those issues.
The name Charles Bishop Weyland will show you what the name Wayland really stands for, but let's try to help to get to the right mindset of how to approach this.
Any OS (Operating System) must have compatible drivers so the OS will be able to communicate with third part software and hardware.
Most of hardware and software are written for Mac and Windows. Not Linux. Macs come first for it's stability because when buying Mac, you get a running computer that everything is in it and it is tailored for your exact needs regardless the software.
Windows give you much more freedom in that case, so while we can verity of things running on the pc, we also have risks.
Still those two have the OS versions for certain period they have and that's it, and still, both can, and will crash here and there.
Linux on the other hand, have many distro, and each distro fits its maker mindset, not the public. From time to time we see distros like Zorin OS that really made things easy and still, without a Linux software and drivers that were written on a specific Linux distro and third party software that ere written specifically on Linux and for Different Linux version, you will always run into problem with.
You look like a Russian (your eyes) or something from that east Europe area, and you have some accent so you probably speak the language, you also speak English very well. What would happen if you suddenly appeared in Yemen where they only speak Arabic and nothing else and you do not know Arabic at all? Big problem!!! So let's Compared to computer language.
Russian - Mac
English - Windows
Arabic - Linux
The mindset is totally different. That's why we are close to WW3. The same with Wayland, and Linux in general. It is like WW3. different software and hardware do not agree with each other because there's no diplomat translator (Drivers) who know the cloture (programing) of all of those lands (OS and Distros).
When you'll have this set up, you won't have any issue. There is a way to set it up, but no one will bother to do so right now because people chase after external things instead off benefiting humanity.
Julia, I hope it was clear to understand. This is exactly what goes on with Wayland and Linux.
Thank you for your detailed comment. I appreciate you taking the time to engage with the video and share your perspective.
To clarify, my educational background and origins are not relevant to the technical discussion at hand. The aim of my video was to address Wayland and Linux compatibility challenges based on both personal experiences and feedback from the community. Everyone interested in tech and Linux deserves a space to learn, explore, and share-no matter their background.
I highlighted in the video that many of Wayland’s issues stem from its open-source nature, relying on community efforts rather than corporate backing like macOS or Windows. This does mean progress takes time, dedication, and collaboration.
I do recognize your passion for the topic, and it’s clear you have strong knowledge of Linux’s unique challenges. If you’re ready to invest your time or expertise into tackling even one of the issues the Linux ecosystem faces, you could make a real impact.