I am surpised by some of these comments. Some of these comments are being made out of sheer ignorance. I was deeply hurt by a satellite campus of Mars Hill. The toxicity spread from the top down and was cultural. When you tried to raise issues, you were deemed as divisive and lacking spiritual discernment. Many men were not fit to be leaders. And those were the ones that had the most egregious behaviour yet were the first to leave Mars Hill. Very sad. But I knew God was good, even though man isn't. Through that difficult time, my faith grew exponentially.
This interview and the ones on Sutton Turner's channel are outstanding. They've helped me to understand how my own church, who was following Driscoll and Rob Bell quite irrationally as far as I could tell, chopped up and rearrange the staff and the body to suit the senior pastor's wants. It's all so subtle, but every increment can be explained away - until it's all too late. It's also helped me understand my own family of origin, everyone was Christian and nice and every accusation the narcissist at the top was explained, yet the family system destroyed everyone in it except the narcissist. It's complicated, finding the pattern is difficult when the gaslighting is so strong at the top of the organization. Recovery is a long, long process, and the people who find the system to their advantage never change, but the only way out of the fog is to accept your own agency, define your own boundaries, and leave the abusive system.
I just have a comment that I do not mean to be offensive or judgemental at all. It's just that I've never heard so many church leaders that use such foul language. Why is that? Is it the only way you think that you can relate to your peers? I know a lot of young people who can speak without using any bad words. I am asking this genuinely wanting to understand what the thought process is. It comes across as a way to rebel against your parents - or your English teacher - or something. Can someone humor me and explain it? Thank you.
I know the details are left out for good reason. But for clarity and understanding I think it would behoove us to air out the details. I just don’t know how to do that with out sounding petty. But I’ve been apart of church unrest coming from both the pastor and the congregation while the larger number of our members had no idea what was going on. I think the members should be fully and wholly informed when it comes to decisions of the church.
the man was surprised . . . "icebergs in the water" these leaders are so clever to describe things while all the while ignore the warning signs and not seeing things . . .
Around the 37-minute mark, he talks about how Mark wasn't all bad (which I do believe, by the way). But the example he uses to illustrate the good in Mark was that he sometimes had lunch with his fellow elders. How pathetic. Our standards have become abysmally low. My small church pastor who will never be famous, have a book deal, or go viral has 10 times the Christlike faithfulness, compassion, and goodness in his little finger. We need to take a step back and listen to ourselves, the things we've begun to take as "normal".
Seems like these two guys had a problem with a bullying leader and are using this podcast in a cathartic manner to, 'vent'. It was a mega church....a lot of $ involved.
🤣🤣🤣🤣Too much talk... where’s the evidence and what are the specifics on what did say do...all I hear is...with what he said about what he did is not what really happened because what I can tell you is what I know and saw and bullying was about started to happen when it happened in 2013 about the storied I heard that we’re overwhelming...what I know is so obvious I’m so glad I saw a what I saw about the issues he was charged with. And that’s what I know 🤣🤣🤣
This would be a much better discussion if the interviewer would stop speaking over the person he is interviewing. Let the person speak - they let you speak and you should do likewise.
Ive never listened to this podcast till today and i just listened to two of them. It’s very interesting and i can relate to some of what’s being said. i grew up in the church system and thought what I was told. At one point I took the choice to walk away from the system and not attend to a church building/service ever again. I never stopped believing in God and I don’t think I ever will stop but the view on who God is has changed drastically where I see the activities at the average American Christian Church seem as disrespect or whichcraft or pointless/mind numbing activities. My wife and i are at a point where we believe in the cure of our beings that Jesus is the Lord but He is not this lovey dubby harmless cotton candy being who accepts Allen whatever form people want to be but also He is not a rule book that cannot undesratand is as humans. I use to beehive that Jesus was just love and anyone that said “I believe” was gonna go to heaven. But I certainly don’t believe that now and I feel as if I am in between ligalism and hyper grace and although I believe this is the right approach... I am not sure how to approach this since I am so new to this. Personally I would love to be in your show and see what we can talk about.
Domineering, arrogant and a pattern of spewing angry words at his staff, including the use of cursing. “Verbal violence” one Exec Elder called it. Then the attitude of bullying and domineering was spread thru the staff pastors and most elders… which badly impacted church members.
I bet you anything the reason he felt bullied by mark was because mark was calling him out on his shit and he did not like it. From what I gather, mars hill kicked Mark out of the church he built because they no longer wanted the gospel preached in a way the common sinner can understand. Well guess what, we are all sinners and to shame him while defending the church makes me see there is something they want to hide haha.
33:30 nobody needed to “wake up”. Please cut that crap. They needed to grow a pair. The issues were obvious to everybody. There were too many egos, too many salaries, too many limp dicks involved to do the right thing. I’ve seen this crap in three different churches. And these were not ridiculous, circus act, mega churches like mark’s hill (why anyone would want to be apart of a corny, tonight show style church like that is beyond me). It takes a set of balls to stand up to a bully. Look at the life of Ron Paul and take a lesson from that. It doesn’t matter if you agree with his politics, you can be a progressive, a Mitt Romney fan, or a sportsman for Bush. Look at how he conducted himself *according to the principles* he espoused. If you can’t or won’t conduct yourself that way then please don’t take leadership in a church. I am begging and pleading with you to take up golf, buy a horse, buy a sports car, get a time share, buy an Xbox, build a garden, but do not take office in a church. I have had to lose friendships, ruin my reputation, and alienate dear folks, but I stood on principle and did the right thing. I was also later vindicated. Stop the cycle and take responsibility. *I’m not criticizing Wilkerson’s main thrust here but only that one line. Sometimes a throw away line or use of verbiage speaks volumes. I’m sure he’s a good man, repentant, and entirely disgusted with what happened at mark’s hill. Nonetheless, the language of “wake up”? Nah-uh, that is too charitable and it doesn’t help people change.
so question?? do we need another bully to bully the bully. ive been in two ministeries where i got bullied. i hav been bullied at school big time!! can a bully actually be stopped???? is it the fault of the bullied??? thats such a question of a bullied person. how does it change? my default is to cower and pray but does god care. why would he put these people in charge?? this a mystery! but i believe god is good and in the mist of folly all is still well. i think chuch discipline is at fault and more more more needs understood there. better to catch the canser at the start than to deal with it after years of neglect!!!!! CHURCH is where u come and say hi and drink coffee but it meant to be a place of confession challenge love. all scriture for teaching correcting and rebuke. rebuke only only only happens when they know foer certain i love them!! otherwise they will hate u. ideally god does all the redbuking. if everyone comes to church smiling and nice completly oblivious to all the sin the there be trouble when chuch discipline happens. justy as germs need disenfective so sin need light. that does not happen publicly!! it is when we are small and close. if i come in and smile and talk weather im screwed!! the beaty of marriage and its curse is you get to KNOW them. such a pain. that the church. how church then when it all pews and weatgher? ok the best church was when i and a college just stooped and prayed. disciplne happen when we are close. seriously still not sure of answer but it not in the most part from documents, testimonies, letters, councils. does it need another bigger bully to come say screw u??
This life isn’t all there is brother we need to try to stay faithful and humble, it’s not easy but god will judge us all, so pray for even your Enemies whenever possible
Weak elder trying to explain how ineffective he was before he ran off. Thats my take, also has a great vocabulary uses alot of words and makes great analogies. Not sure what the pastor really did, they never really clearly say, but boy do they use alot of words to explain themselves and say he was a good guy at one point. I now understand why he got away with whatever he was doing.
I think this is a good conversation but one things that really bothers me about preachers talking about other preachers actions is the whole “I don’t want to go too into detail,” mentality. Why not!? I’m currently no longer practicing my faith but I hold a lot of Christian values very close to me and to see other church leaders not be completely open and share all of the ways that mark hurt his congregation is in a way protecting marks image to an extent to the public church. The dood did some incredibly abusive and fucked up things so I think the details are needed for the weight to really be understood of how this effected the mars hill community.
Classless gutless and shameful to engage in ripping someone like this without concrete examples and specific instances. Otherwise you both have ZERO character. Accusing someone on a public forum through implied sin without the integrity to own the detailed accusations is PATHETIC
@@SB_McCollum for the record - PUBLICLY smearing a man WITHOUT UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE while speaking about him in clearly vilified words, tone, and attitude, all in the name of Christ is inexcusable and wrong to make public. It's shameful. To post it on TH-cam and then claim it was for limited ears is hypocritical and weak. Grow some character and understand how to live with a morsel of integrity before you defend the public lynching if another man in such an inexcusable manner.
@@KenRFoxNashvilleSEO for the record... you should really do more research before leaving such ignorant statements .... one quick search at what Driscoll did in Seattle and now has been doing in Arizona at his new 'cult' will reveal all... its all true, and its undeniable as it can be. Driscoll is dragging everyone that follows him to hell so hopefully you are not that drunk on the kool-aid and think he's a saint. He's the devil. Grow some intelligence and understand how to live with modern technology doing research before you defend a cult leader in such an inexcusable manner.
God started His church with Jesus. He is the bridegroom, we are the bride. No pope. The Catholic church has a history of corruption, just like Mars hill. Jesus and his bride, the church, the believers, is the true church. Not an establishment of old men in robes in Rome.
@@dyerseve07 the Bible says it will be old men in robes. The Bible is/was corrupt at least as much as the Roman Catholic Church. The Bible has 1. Rape. 2. Murder. 3. Incest. 4. War. 5. Traitors. 6. Corruption Yet u have no problem with the Bible ? I think God can see thru your excuse
![กี่หมื่นฟ้า | Your Sky Series EP.1 [2/4]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qJbQs_nhjD4/mqdefault.jpg)
Do you guys hear the phone ringing at the 2:30 mark?
I am surpised by some of these comments. Some of these comments are being made out of sheer ignorance. I was deeply hurt by a satellite campus of Mars Hill. The toxicity spread from the top down and was cultural. When you tried to raise issues, you were deemed as divisive and lacking spiritual discernment. Many men were not fit to be leaders. And those were the ones that had the most egregious behaviour yet were the first to leave Mars Hill. Very sad. But I knew God was good, even though man isn't. Through that difficult time, my faith grew exponentially.
This interview and the ones on Sutton Turner's channel are outstanding. They've helped me to understand how my own church, who was following Driscoll and Rob Bell quite irrationally as far as I could tell, chopped up and rearrange the staff and the body to suit the senior pastor's wants. It's all so subtle, but every increment can be explained away - until it's all too late. It's also helped me understand my own family of origin, everyone was Christian and nice and every accusation the narcissist at the top was explained, yet the family system destroyed everyone in it except the narcissist. It's complicated, finding the pattern is difficult when the gaslighting is so strong at the top of the organization. Recovery is a long, long process, and the people who find the system to their advantage never change, but the only way out of the fog is to accept your own agency, define your own boundaries, and leave the abusive system.
There are really great points in this conversation. Not just about Mars Hill , but examples of abuse in relationships in general.
6 minutes, and all I'm hearing is iceberg puzzles, interconnectivity, and the meaningful nature of words
huh,please clarify your comment,imlstening to this while doing other things,so maybe i missed what you mean.
Word salad!!! Wat happend???!!
It gets meaty around 20 minutes.
I just have a comment that I do not mean to be offensive or judgemental at all. It's just that I've never heard so many church leaders that use such foul language. Why is that? Is it the only way you think that you can relate to your peers? I know a lot of young people who can speak without using any bad words. I am asking this genuinely wanting to understand what the thought process is. It comes across as a way to rebel against your parents - or your English teacher - or something. Can someone humor me and explain it? Thank you.
apologizes for the light rain, yet completely ignores the blaring ring tone earlier in the video lol. nearly had me jump out of my seat.
Appreciate this interview, thank you.
I know the details are left out for good reason. But for clarity and understanding I think it would behoove us to air out the details. I just don’t know how to do that with out sounding petty. But I’ve been apart of church unrest coming from both the pastor and the congregation while the larger number of our members had no idea what was going on. I think the members should be fully and wholly informed when it comes to decisions of the church.
What are you saying?
the man was surprised . . . "icebergs in the water" these leaders are so clever to describe things while all the while ignore the warning signs and not seeing things . . .
Around the 37-minute mark, he talks about how Mark wasn't all bad (which I do believe, by the way). But the example he uses to illustrate the good in Mark was that he sometimes had lunch with his fellow elders. How pathetic. Our standards have become abysmally low. My small church pastor who will never be famous, have a book deal, or go viral has 10 times the Christlike faithfulness, compassion, and goodness in his little finger. We need to take a step back and listen to ourselves, the things we've begun to take as "normal".
Dude that phone...
Who’s here from the rise and fall of Mars hill pod?
Interesting convo, but about halfway through morphed into esoteric, repetitive, vague mumbo-jumbo.
It sounds like Mars Hill had the wrong people in authority. Weak elders.
Word salad 🥗 Nobody is saying anything 😅
Seems like these two guys had a problem with a bullying leader and are using this podcast in a cathartic manner to, 'vent'. It was a mega church....a lot of $ involved.
🤣🤣🤣🤣Too much talk... where’s the evidence and what are the specifics on what did say do...all I hear is...with what he said about what he did is not what really happened because what I can tell you is what I know and saw and bullying was about started to happen when it happened in 2013 about the storied I heard that we’re overwhelming...what I know is so obvious I’m so glad I saw a what I saw about the issues he was charged with. And that’s what I know 🤣🤣🤣
This would be a much better discussion if the interviewer would stop speaking over the person he is interviewing. Let the person speak - they let you speak and you should do likewise.
Ive never listened to this podcast till today and i just listened to two of them. It’s very interesting and i can relate to some of what’s being said. i grew up in the church system and thought what I was told. At one point I took the choice to walk away from the system and not attend to a church building/service ever again. I never stopped believing in God and I don’t think I ever will stop but the view on who God is has changed drastically where I see the activities at the average American Christian Church seem as disrespect or whichcraft or pointless/mind numbing activities. My wife and i are at a point where we believe in the cure of our beings that Jesus is the Lord but He is not this lovey dubby harmless cotton candy being who accepts Allen whatever form people want to be but also He is not a rule book that cannot undesratand is as humans. I use to beehive that Jesus was just love and anyone that said “I believe” was gonna go to heaven. But I certainly don’t believe that now and I feel as if I am in between ligalism and hyper grace and although I believe this is the right approach... I am not sure how to approach this since I am so new to this. Personally I would love to be in your show and see what we can talk about.
what is this abuse he's acused of?
Pavel no that response doesn’t sound like Jesus
Domineering, arrogant and a pattern of spewing angry words at his staff, including the use of cursing. “Verbal violence” one Exec Elder called it.
Then the attitude of bullying and domineering was spread thru the staff pastors and most elders… which badly impacted church members.
I bet you anything the reason he felt bullied by mark was because mark was calling him out on his shit and he did not like it. From what I gather, mars hill kicked Mark out of the church he built because they no longer wanted the gospel preached in a way the common sinner can understand. Well guess what, we are all sinners and to shame him while defending the church makes me see there is something they want to hide haha.
Ad hominem everyone! She doesn't address any of the concerns in the video, instead attacking the person voicing the argument.
Lol with everything that’s happened this didn’t turn out to good for you 😂😂 @dawn E
this comment has not aged well.
33:30 nobody needed to “wake up”. Please cut that crap. They needed to grow a pair. The issues were obvious to everybody. There were too many egos, too many salaries, too many limp dicks involved to do the right thing. I’ve seen this crap in three different churches. And these were not ridiculous, circus act, mega churches like mark’s hill (why anyone would want to be apart of a corny, tonight show style church like that is beyond me). It takes a set of balls to stand up to a bully. Look at the life of Ron Paul and take a lesson from that. It doesn’t matter if you agree with his politics, you can be a progressive, a Mitt Romney fan, or a sportsman for Bush. Look at how he conducted himself *according to the principles* he espoused. If you can’t or won’t conduct yourself that way then please don’t take leadership in a church. I am begging and pleading with you to take up golf, buy a horse, buy a sports car, get a time share, buy an Xbox, build a garden, but do not take office in a church. I have had to lose friendships, ruin my reputation, and alienate dear folks, but I stood on principle and did the right thing. I was also later vindicated. Stop the cycle and take responsibility.
*I’m not criticizing Wilkerson’s main thrust here but only that one line. Sometimes a throw away line or use of verbiage speaks volumes. I’m sure he’s a good man, repentant, and entirely disgusted with what happened at mark’s hill. Nonetheless, the language of “wake up”? Nah-uh, that is too charitable and it doesn’t help people change.
so question?? do we need another bully to bully the bully. ive been in two ministeries where i got bullied. i hav been bullied at school big time!! can a bully actually be stopped???? is it the fault of the bullied??? thats such a question of a bullied person. how does it change? my default is to cower and pray but does god care. why would he put these people in charge?? this a mystery! but i believe god is good and in the mist of folly all is still well. i think chuch discipline is at fault and more more more needs understood there. better to catch the canser at the start than to deal with it after years of neglect!!!!! CHURCH is where u come and say hi and drink coffee but it meant to be a place of confession challenge love. all scriture for teaching correcting and rebuke. rebuke only only only happens when they know foer certain i love them!! otherwise they will hate u. ideally god does all the redbuking. if everyone comes to church smiling and nice completly oblivious to all the sin the there be trouble when chuch discipline happens. justy as germs need disenfective so sin need light. that does not happen publicly!! it is when we are small and close. if i come in and smile and talk weather im screwed!! the beaty of marriage and its curse is you get to KNOW them. such a pain. that the church. how church then when it all pews and weatgher?
ok the best church was when i and a college just stooped and prayed. disciplne happen when we are close. seriously still not sure of answer but it not in the most part from documents, testimonies, letters, councils. does it need another bigger bully to come say screw u??
This life isn’t all there is brother we need to try to stay faithful and humble, it’s not easy but god will judge us all, so pray for even your
Enemies whenever possible
Weak elder trying to explain how ineffective he was before he ran off. Thats my take, also has a great vocabulary uses alot of words and makes great analogies. Not sure what the pastor really did, they never really clearly say, but boy do they use alot of words to explain themselves and say he was a good guy at one point. I now understand why he got away with whatever he was doing.
Mark Driscoll bragging . . . shocker . . . "wounding exhaustion and trauma"
I think this is a good conversation but one things that really bothers me about preachers talking about other preachers actions is the whole “I don’t want to go too into detail,” mentality. Why not!? I’m currently no longer practicing my faith but I hold a lot of Christian values very close to me and to see other church leaders not be completely open and share all of the ways that mark hurt his congregation is in a way protecting marks image to an extent to the public church. The dood did some incredibly abusive and fucked up things so I think the details are needed for the weight to really be understood of how this effected the mars hill community.
Classless gutless and shameful to engage in ripping someone like this without concrete examples and specific instances. Otherwise you both have ZERO character. Accusing someone on a public forum through implied sin without the integrity to own the detailed accusations is PATHETIC
This podcast was made primarily for people who were there and do know, by experience, what happened. For you, however, google is your friend.
@@SB_McCollum for the record - PUBLICLY smearing a man WITHOUT UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE while speaking about him in clearly vilified words, tone, and attitude, all in the name of Christ is inexcusable and wrong to make public. It's shameful. To post it on TH-cam and then claim it was for limited ears is hypocritical and weak. Grow some character and understand how to live with a morsel of integrity before you defend the public lynching if another man in such an inexcusable manner.
@@KenRFoxNashvilleSEO for the record...
you should really do more research before leaving such ignorant statements .... one quick search at what Driscoll did in Seattle and now has been doing in Arizona at his new 'cult' will reveal all... its all true, and its undeniable as it can be.
Driscoll is dragging everyone that follows him to hell so hopefully you are not that drunk on the kool-aid and think he's a saint. He's the devil.
Grow some intelligence and understand how to live with modern technology doing research before you defend a cult leader in such an inexcusable manner.
Organized religion is wrong. Religion is wrong. Listen to the laws, policies, bylaws mentioned. It’s supposed to be about Jesus and loving others.
Jesse organized 13 men and told them they would grow. Sounds like organized religion
Mars Hill is what happens when a man starts a church
The Roman Catholic Church is what happens when God starts His Church
God started His church with Jesus. He is the bridegroom, we are the bride. No pope. The Catholic church has a history of corruption, just like Mars hill. Jesus and his bride, the church, the believers, is the true church. Not an establishment of old men in robes in Rome.
@@dyerseve07 the Bible says it will be old men in robes. The Bible is/was corrupt at least as much as the Roman Catholic Church.
The Bible has
1. Rape.
2. Murder.
3. Incest.
4. War.
5. Traitors.
6. Corruption
Yet u have no problem with the Bible ?
I think God can see thru your excuse
@@PInk77W1 It's easy to criticize when you take things out of context and have a lack of faith.
@@dyerseve07 2000yrs the Catholic Church has had faith.
@@PInk77W1 In itself.