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Weak elder trying to explain how ineffective he was before he ran off. Thats my take, also has a great vocabulary uses alot of words and makes great analogies. Not sure what the pastor really did, they never really clearly say, but boy do they use alot of words to explain themselves and say he was a good guy at one point. I now understand why he got away with whatever he was doing.

Listening in 2024, Matt you called AI "cloning" but were off by 90 years or so... still impressive! Enjoyed it.

bro talks too much, let your guest talk more

Kris is my favorite audio engineer. His work on Downtown Battle Mountain 1 and 2 and Relativity are literal perfect tracking, mixing, and mastering.

Never heard tell of a skateboard kid with a Boss Hogg accent.

33:30 nobody needed to “wake up”. Please cut that crap. They needed to grow a pair. The issues were obvious to everybody. There were too many egos, too many salaries, too many limp dicks involved to do the right thing. I’ve seen this crap in three different churches. And these were not ridiculous, circus act, mega churches like mark’s hill (why anyone would want to be apart of a corny, tonight show style church like that is beyond me). It takes a set of balls to stand up to a bully. Look at the life of Ron Paul and take a lesson from that. It doesn’t matter if you agree with his politics, you can be a progressive, a Mitt Romney fan, or a sportsman for Bush. Look at how he conducted himself *according to the principles* he espoused. If you can’t or won’t conduct yourself that way then please don’t take leadership in a church. I am begging and pleading with you to take up golf, buy a horse, buy a sports car, get a time share, buy an Xbox, build a garden, but do not take office in a church. I have had to lose friendships, ruin my reputation, and alienate dear folks, but I stood on principle and did the right thing. I was also later vindicated. Stop the cycle and take responsibility. *I’m not criticizing Wilkerson’s main thrust here but only that one line. Sometimes a throw away line or use of verbiage speaks volumes. I’m sure he’s a good man, repentant, and entirely disgusted with what happened at mark’s hill. Nonetheless, the language of “wake up”? Nah-uh, that is too charitable and it doesn’t help people change.

Having had a bad Mars Hill like church experience about 10 years ago, I still think it's good to let leaders experience forgiveness, especially when it seems they are honestly trying to come to grips with what happened, not just trying to clear their name. It seems like he is really trying to grapple and be honest.

I just have a comment that I do not mean to be offensive or judgemental at all. It's just that I've never heard so many church leaders that use such foul language. Why is that? Is it the only way you think that you can relate to your peers? I know a lot of young people who can speak without using any bad words. I am asking this genuinely wanting to understand what the thought process is. It comes across as a way to rebel against your parents - or your English teacher - or something. Can someone humor me and explain it? Thank you.

Abusive and disgusting. And now Mike is promoting Homosexuality in the Church. Doctrine of demons. RUN!

I dont trust a word that Mike says. He, along with most of the "leadership" at MH was toxic and ungodly. Wilkerson is espousing new demonic doctrine regading being LGBT affirming and promoting this into the Church. I'd dont trust a word, or anyone from MH says. As a former Intern, I saw so much abuse and sinful behavior from the Leadership. They were all about bullying, abuse, and power hungry. So disgusting. I refuse to go back to Church after this. I am so done with the Church and it's disgusting ways.

This would be a much better discussion if the interviewer would stop speaking over the person he is interviewing. Let the person speak - they let you speak and you should do likewise.

Matt, You should SERIOUSLY do some videos on your guitar technique, specifically your dissonant guitar chords. I’ve listened to Emery for years, and your tracks are mind blowing. If you’ve done any of these types of vids, can you point me in the right direction? Curbside Goodbye and Miss Behavin’ specifically! Thank you sir!

Great conversation, super chill and informative!

The more i listen to former mars hill leadership the more i see Mark Driscoll was in good company.

I think this is a good conversation but one things that really bothers me about preachers talking about other preachers actions is the whole “I don’t want to go too into detail,” mentality. Why not!? I’m currently no longer practicing my faith but I hold a lot of Christian values very close to me and to see other church leaders not be completely open and share all of the ways that mark hurt his congregation is in a way protecting marks image to an extent to the public church. The dood did some incredibly abusive and fucked up things so I think the details are needed for the weight to really be understood of how this effected the mars hill community.

It sounds like Mars Hill had the wrong people in authority. Weak elders.

Let’s start off bragging and know-it-all talk. It gets more and more comical with “I’ve just explained the whole world Gen 1-3 because I’m an artist and an engineer and a mathematical wizard that recorded a song using random number theory. “ “Oh! Do you just understand it naturally like I do? “ I saw the 2nd part first and it was more honest with saying that they’re in a process. This conversation they are talking like they’ve already got it all wrapped up. Ego tripping, but make it godly.

Word salad 🥗 Nobody is saying anything 😅

This interview and the ones on Sutton Turner's channel are outstanding. They've helped me to understand how my own church, who was following Driscoll and Rob Bell quite irrationally as far as I could tell, chopped up and rearrange the staff and the body to suit the senior pastor's wants. It's all so subtle, but every increment can be explained away - until it's all too late. It's also helped me understand my own family of origin, everyone was Christian and nice and every accusation the narcissist at the top was explained, yet the family system destroyed everyone in it except the narcissist. It's complicated, finding the pattern is difficult when the gaslighting is so strong at the top of the organization. Recovery is a long, long process, and the people who find the system to their advantage never change, but the only way out of the fog is to accept your own agency, define your own boundaries, and leave the abusive system.

Who’s here from the rise and fall of Mars hill pod?

Classless gutless and shameful to engage in ripping someone like this without concrete examples and specific instances. Otherwise you both have ZERO character. Accusing someone on a public forum through implied sin without the integrity to own the detailed accusations is PATHETIC

Around the 37-minute mark, he talks about how Mark wasn't all bad (which I do believe, by the way). But the example he uses to illustrate the good in Mark was that he sometimes had lunch with his fellow elders. How pathetic. Our standards have become abysmally low. My small church pastor who will never be famous, have a book deal, or go viral has 10 times the Christlike faithfulness, compassion, and goodness in his little finger. We need to take a step back and listen to ourselves, the things we've begun to take as "normal".

Mars Hill is what happens when a man starts a church The Roman Catholic Church is what happens when God starts His Church

Yes Mark Driscoll left so that the investigation by the leaders would not be completed like so many who abandon the church while under the steps of church discipline

Mark Driscoll bragging . . . shocker . . . "wounding exhaustion and trauma"

the man was surprised . . . "icebergs in the water" these leaders are so clever to describe things while all the while ignore the warning signs and not seeing things . . .

I know the details are left out for good reason. But for clarity and understanding I think it would behoove us to air out the details. I just don’t know how to do that with out sounding petty. But I’ve been apart of church unrest coming from both the pastor and the congregation while the larger number of our members had no idea what was going on. I think the members should be fully and wholly informed when it comes to decisions of the church.

the interviewr is really bad.....

Seems like these two guys had a problem with a bullying leader and are using this podcast in a cathartic manner to, 'vent'. It was a mega church....a lot of $ involved.

I am surpised by some of these comments. Some of these comments are being made out of sheer ignorance. I was deeply hurt by a satellite campus of Mars Hill. The toxicity spread from the top down and was cultural. When you tried to raise issues, you were deemed as divisive and lacking spiritual discernment. Many men were not fit to be leaders. And those were the ones that had the most egregious behaviour yet were the first to leave Mars Hill. Very sad. But I knew God was good, even though man isn't. Through that difficult time, my faith grew exponentially.

What are you saying?

37:00 Bob Dylan fucking sucks. that's the end of discussion. Great song writer don't get me wrong but he should have stayed in his lane and wrote music. He sounds like a box chevy cold starting in mid December singing

Commenting to help the algorithm. You and tim have a great chemistry. Would definitely subscribe to a matt/tim podcast

Interesting convo, but about halfway through morphed into esoteric, repetitive, vague mumbo-jumbo.

I came here from reading her story about the passing of her husband and her eventual miscarriage. Is this the same Shanon Dingle? Praise to her for starting to see the world outside her immediate sphere. She no longer pro-life thru natural laws affect....

Biggest legend's

Appreciate this interview, thank you.

so question?? do we need another bully to bully the bully. ive been in two ministeries where i got bullied. i hav been bullied at school big time!! can a bully actually be stopped???? is it the fault of the bullied??? thats such a question of a bullied person. how does it change? my default is to cower and pray but does god care. why would he put these people in charge?? this a mystery! but i believe god is good and in the mist of folly all is still well. i think chuch discipline is at fault and more more more needs understood there. better to catch the canser at the start than to deal with it after years of neglect!!!!! CHURCH is where u come and say hi and drink coffee but it meant to be a place of confession challenge love. all scriture for teaching correcting and rebuke. rebuke only only only happens when they know foer certain i love them!! otherwise they will hate u. ideally god does all the redbuking. if everyone comes to church smiling and nice completly oblivious to all the sin the there be trouble when chuch discipline happens. justy as germs need disenfective so sin need light. that does not happen publicly!! it is when we are small and close. if i come in and smile and talk weather im screwed!! the beaty of marriage and its curse is you get to KNOW them. such a pain. that the church. how church then when it all pews and weatgher? ok the best church was when i and a college just stooped and prayed. disciplne happen when we are close. seriously still not sure of answer but it not in the most part from documents, testimonies, letters, councils. does it need another bigger bully to come say screw u??

apologizes for the light rain, yet completely ignores the blaring ring tone earlier in the video lol. nearly had me jump out of my seat.

Organized religion is wrong. Religion is wrong. Listen to the laws, policies, bylaws mentioned. It’s supposed to be about Jesus and loving others.

Man, Tim is the real deal

What kind of mic is Phil using?

🤣🤣🤣🤣Too much talk... where’s the evidence and what are the specifics on what did say do...all I hear is...with what he said about what he did is not what really happened because what I can tell you is what I know and saw and bullying was about started to happen when it happened in 2013 about the storied I heard that we’re overwhelming...what I know is so obvious I’m so glad I saw a what I saw about the issues he was charged with. And that’s what I know 🤣🤣🤣

nice!

does anyone know which specific sermon of Dr. Sandy Ray's it is that he uses for "Danger in the Jungle"?

There are really great points in this conversation. Not just about Mars Hill , but examples of abuse in relationships in general.

Damn At just 2 minutes I realized I didnt want you to even talk to me.! I'm sorry you had trouble, jeez get over it

Dude that phone...

I appreciate the attempt to build bridges, but I still disagree. Have a pro-choice guest, of equal stature, to bring about the other side of the argument.

Formerly Philip Chuck