Is The Rupert Neve Master Bus Transformer The SSL Fusion Killer?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2023
- In this video I discuss my thoughts on if the new Rupert Neve Master Bus Transformer (MBT) is the Solid State Logic (SSL) Fusion killer. Lots of people have asked my opinion on this and after a week of using the MBT I can give you my honest answer.
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Big fan of the MBT, the compressor has a real vibe. Controlling the overal tone with blue/red silk together is much much better than on MBP. The EQ is also very forgiving and easy to get a smile
Thanks for this new video, I hope you'll release the one comparing the MBT to the MBP (especially Sfe mode :)
I should have time to shoot this video this evening and post ASAP
Amazing ! thanks a lot for helping us :) @@AudioAnimalsStudio
@sound4label all about helping others make the right gear choice with honest unbiased from someone that own the gear in question. Something that's servery lacking on TH-cam unfortunately.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio 100% Agree and we can't take the risk to buy, make a mistake and resell with lost especially with the inflation/recession. thanks :)
Nice to see you have this can’t wait to send my track to you 👍🏻
Thank you. Appreciated
Do audio comparison and try to match them .. as best as you can , it will be very interesting 🙂
Thanks for your informative video. As someone that mixes in the box, would running a final mix through a SSL Fusion to give some analogue colour before sending it off to be mastered be a good idea? Or do you not recommend this as a final stage process? (before mastering)
It's certainly not a bad thing to do. This is essentially what the Fusion is designed for. My only comment on using it for this process would be do not use the vintage drive. It adds a lot of noise into the mix. Then once mastered, it becomes even louder.
My SSL Fusion absolutely shines on my tascam 8 track cassette and reel to reel recorders..works and sounds a hell of a lot better with tape than the mixes that come from the DAW..actually sounds like a record from the old days....
Tengo Fusion y realmente vale la pena, te hace sonar pro!!!
Just got the MTC and tried it with my 5060 Centerpiece at the master insert, and added the MBP right after the MTC in the chain. For me in this setup, the MTC+MBP complement each other immensely! The MTC alone added extremely nice punch, extra clarity and width, but adding the MBP right after it in the chain added a magical and musical smoothness to the sound. The two units tried separately each added a lot, but the two together took the sound to yet another level. In this case at least, one unit did not replace the other. Which makes sense that RND would not intentionally come out with an MBP killer. But would as they've implied, create an MTC that could complement the MBP. Looking forward to Paul's more thorough review on the subject!
The two should compliment each other well. My issue is that I don't use the MBP as a compressor and use it as a stereo field editor. Which in that aspect it does somewhat or possible could replace it. However if you use the MBP as a compressor like you are they will 100% compliment each other really well actually.
Looking forward to your next video on this!
@@AudioAnimalsStudio
@@brysavaTHANKU that’s All I needed to hear 👌🏾
Is there any use for the red and blue silk on the MBP as part of this compliment? or is that part of the MBP the sacrifice you make to get the MBT super silk if you already own the MBP. Also is there any really useful benefit of paying for another analog width control when you already have what is considered the bst in the business on the MBP? Of course the two compressors and eq and drive are nice compliments. But paying for width twice is a little painful, when there's other things you need. Any chance we could here what 5060 into MBT into MBP sounds like?
@barneyrubble8255 not really. Super silk is essentially have the MBP silk blue and red to use at the same time. So would double up. Same with the width control really. The only real benefit of having both it seems for me is if you use the MBP as a compressor at a stage of the chain. For instance you could have the MBT adding silk before the MBP compressor then the MBP silk after compressor.
Thanks for the review. Now I’m waiting for the MBC and the MBT comparison 🤔. Thanks Paul for what you do for us 🙏🏾
In what way are they comparable? Other than the name and colour scheme.
This one will be coming next week, I am shooting the video now for it.
I think he is referring to the MBP not the MBC
Thanks Paul I meant the MBP 😂
@@OfficialAlexZitto you see me in these videos struggling to call it the right name. I really have to think about it and sure I'm saying the right version.
Thanks for the video. Looking forward to the MBP vs Mbt!!! Especially the mid side sfe and compressor comparison.
Going to compare standard silk against super silk too. I find super silk smoother and more pleasing. So I want to find out if this is truly the case.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio and how does it compare to two standard silk units in parallel? I’m guessing near indistinguishable. As they plonk silk on everything then most RND ecosystems already has plenty of silk I imagine. Nice to have both on same unit. They should have done that on the 5060 for the amount they charge for it! Odd they didn’t give that the 5059 has two silk circuits so in theory could also do super silk (which is how I’ve been using it for more control over silk).
I sometime use my Neve 542 in mid/side with the Fusion sounds pretty good. Fusion is on my Mixbuss and being very happy. Ofcourse there are way better devices which comes with their prices too. But for a amateur bedroom producer its awesome to have. Using the fusion in parallel with vintage drive and De-noiser is very doable with Mastering. Just to spice a lifeless mix up. But yea still not like the big Studios could do with serious budgets.
All in all very happy with my fusion! Cheers
That's a great use of the 542's. You are in some ways create a MBT fusion.
Did you remove Kush Clariphonic? What do you think about that unit?
No it's in the mid side rack to my right. Just moved position. Love the kush. Brilliant tool.
Do you guys like the plugin compared to the unit?
Hello, and thanks for this vid! I don’t know if I am the only one waiting for this, but could you please do a vid with your honest thoughts on this MBT replacing the portico II? MBP? Thanks 🙏 Lovely channel!!! 🎉
Yes this one is on it's way. Has been recorded. Just needs editing now.
Are these bus processors necessary from a mix engineer standpoint? I was considering adding to my vca bus compressor this year with a phoenix or 5254 - should I get fusion for a start (I have the plugins)? Would you prioritise the 5254 over the phoenix for flexibility on sources?
It'll certainly add something to your mix bus that will be of benefit. Do you like the sound of the plugins? If you do the hardware is quite similar in terms of sound.
Ok great thank you for your reply - yep I use the plugins a fair bit - I have a silver bullet mk2 on the bus too - might add the vari-mu option for that - and get a nice compressor and the fusion. Work towards the swift eq next year. Thanks again for your advice, really appreciated @@AudioAnimalsStudio
Did you try the Kush Audio plugins?
I've invested in a SSL Fusion and wondering what you would recommend to buy next, specifically for using midside. My budget is £1000 and don't mind 2nd hand.
Would prefer 19" but 500series could be persuaded.
I actually have a video coming on this very subject on the same question someone asked. So that will give you a lot more detail. The answer I would give is get a dual mono EQ. 500 series is the way to go on that budget. Reason being is the format is like a swap shop. You buy you sell and there's lots of second hand 500 series modules available. Good ones too. 2x maag EQ4s would be good. Or even get two ssl EQs to go with the Fusion. That'll give you the violet EQs as shelves then 4 bands in between in mid side.
Quicky on the MBT... Do you find you need to EQ up the Mid range after it, as it seems to pretty much only add Low end and Hi's via the shelves or the Super silk, or is that me?
Yes it's very focused around lows and high, and I would say it needs to be used with an EQ to add back in the mids. I guess it designed more like hype box. That smiley face curve.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio Nice one. Thanks for always answering and so quickly.
Can’t you just use an m/s matrix plugin to send the signal to your converter and then feed it to any outboard stereo equipment?
Imo the SSL Fusion a great mix finisher. I do have one feels good on mixes. On mastering stage, yeah miss something.
Defo not the same price range, not the same use. But great start for home studio!
Thanks for your videos re: the SSL Fusion. I was going to purchase one but decided not to. It makes sense that these boxes with a lot of features don’t really focus on something critical. Appreciate the honest review.
The saying a jack of all trades master of none comes to mind
I experienced the same thing years ago with the TC Finalizer so after watching this video bought a limiter and m/s eq instead which cost more dough but you provided the right answer at the right time for me. Thank you so much again. Really enjoy your content/knowledge base.
@@MarcelloDeFrancisci1 great to hear the video helped make the right decision for you.
Now the question is :
Are the Fusion and Bus+ the MBT killers ?🤪
That's an interesting one.
No. I actually own the fusion and bus+ and I’m selling them both. The bus+ for the Smart C2 and the fusion for the MBT.
Have you ever used any of the Spl vitalizers? If so how would you describe the sound
Yes I used to have one. How would I describe it. A basic stereo widener and excitement too. I always found it good on vocals. For the price it is an OK tool that has its uses.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio I tend to like the sound of the (Very Cheap) bbe maximizer on a master bus as it delays the low and high in a musical way the gives a “perceived” sort of space in the mix but the mid frequencies take a hit that I have to make up for. What would you recommend for more space in the mix aside from a exciter?
Do you think the MBT now with the super silk has any overlap with the Blackbox HG2 to the point where you’d be better choosing one over the other or can they actually complement each other. I suppose another way of asking the question would be if you get an MBT would you be considering selling your HG2? Great vid btw
Two different kind of tones of saturation. I feel they compliment eachother. When I used the MBP I'd use silk red and then work with the lows on the HG-2 in many cases. However now having both red and blue I'm finding I'm opting for flat across the HG-2 saturation in most cases and then using the MBT to lift lows and highs. I don't think one replaces the other because both have their own sound.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio Thanks for the reply mate. Very helpful info. I'm about to order an MBT. Your video is one of the ones that sold me so thanks for making me 4k light haha. My chain consists of Louder Than Lift Off Silver Bullet, Culture Vulture Super 15, Overstayer Modular Channel, Tegeler Creme and soon the MBT. As you can see i like my saturation/distortion. Do you think a HG2 in amongst all that would be overkill?
@lukeneptune3820 haha I would apologise but it's a great addition and ultimately you will thank me in the long run. The HG-2 does bring something different. Would it be over around all those other units. Yes maybe but if you have 3k burning a hole in your pocket, the HG-2 will be a great addition. I have a theory though a mid side version may come out in the future.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio Yes the potential of a mid side version is also making me want to hold on to be honest. I think that's what i'll do. Get the MBT now and the MS version of the HG2 when it comes out whenever that may be. Thanks again mate :)
No idea when but heard it's coming at some point.
Will it be ok to have the
Fusion with the MBT on the same chain?
Yes no harm in doing this. You may find you are doubled up on things like EQ and stereo width though.
Currently using a fusion and NGbuscomp, would the MBT be good counterpart to my NGbus for my mixbus?
If you plan on keeping the Fusion, I'd say no. You'd be better of spending £3300 on a good eq. The MBT is this chain will only serve as a silk texture box.
Oh I’m sorry I meant to replace the fusion, do you think that would make a big impact on my mix?
@JordanAtkinsLoriatt the MBT is better than and Fusion. So in terms of swapping the Fusion for the MBT this would be an upgrade. However the Fusion has a mid side insert which is very useful for adding an EQ to the chain in both stereo and mid side.
What about 500 series modules are they good for mastering chains ?
Whilst I wouldn't say 500 series is ideal for mastering it is perfectly fine to use. The 542's are good in mastering.
New question for a video:
How much to save before starting investing in the mastering chain?
(Ex; I can afford a SSL fusion, and a EQ, but that’s not a full mastering chain, so what would it bring me, wouldn’t it make more sence to save money, and spend when I’m ready to build a usable rack and go)?
Great question. Will put this on the list to answer. You can save and go and spend 20k on a half decent mastering chain which let's be fair is better than most mastering engineers have. For 20k you could get something really nice maybe less. If you were to go down 500 series route even cheaper. And lots to choose from in that market. I'd say build as you go. Fill in the gaps with plugins for now. Gradually every few months add something new. I warn you though it never ends.
If you had to choose between the SSL Bus Plus or the Neve MBT which one would you go with and why?
Would depend what I wanted to use it for. If I was looking for an affordable compressor I'd choose the bus plus. But if I wanted something to give me tone and clarity I'd choose the MBT. The two are totally different in many ways. The only real similarity is they both have a compressor. But the bus plus the fundamental feature is a compressor. To me the MBT is more a colour box with a compressor that never gets used. And that's only because I have dedicated mastering compressors. The bus plus and mbt would be better suited paired together.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio Great insight! I really appreciate the reply. I love your videos!
@@natcoziay thank you. Appreciate you taking the time to watch them
I´m using the SSL Fusion, and the Tegeler Creme!!!! :)
A great combo, only thing you miss out on it not being dual mono is the option of mid side.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio True!!! I use the Fusion mainly for mixing, and sometimes with the Tegeler Creme together. I use the Tegeler Creme mostly for mastering to give it some old school analog mojo. I have a great collection of plugins from Waves, Plugin Alliance, Brainworz, Pulsar, Sonible, Arturia, and other. I already had a great sound, but wanted to add a bit of analog warmth to my mixes, and masters. Therefore I bought the Fusion and Tegeler Creme. I didn´t want to spend more than 4000€. I got the Fusion for 1800€, and the Creme for 1500€ new. They seemed to be the most logical to buy at that price point. My clients are happy with the results. :) I also invested in a pair of Focal Shape Twin monitors, which are a nice edition to my Genelecs. I´m curious if you would have done it differently, what you would have bought, and what you might add on to what I already have? Not that I want to go completely analog, I like the conevience, balance, and sound of digital, and analog together, and it´s a lot easier to make adjustments should a client want them. Big fan of your channel. Keep up the great work.
so I have tried both. and have to say MBT is AMAZING. I wish the fusion went for a bus compressor instead of the Hi freq comp. its decent when you make your mixes harsh and bad but if you did your job right its not very useful. BUT a bus comp is WAY nicer than the color comp. I find the color comp to be super smooth and more like a better la2a. by alot
That's a brilliant idea for a SSL fusion mk 2. You could have a bus comp added and also a better vintage drive. Something more like the super silk on the MBT. I wish the MBT swapped the color comp for a 542 tape simulator.
How about the bettermaker limiter for the features?
The saturation on the BM limiter is nice.
What about the SSL 2bus plus... Compared to these units... That will be an awesome review
Thanks advance
Considering you could buy a bus plus and Fusion for the price of a MBT I would say you are getting a lot for your money with the Fusion bus plus combo. I'll see if I can get SSL to send down a Fusion and bus plus to do this review as I no longer have neither.
Gonna test MBT and MBP in mid/side :) just to be nerdy.
The MBTs compressor & EQ are a bit toy-ish for a mastering chain. The silk mode is very cool but thats the only advantage I see over the MBP.
RND was clearly targeting the Fusion with the MBT but that missing mid-side is also a very big issue.
Yeah. For me, it's only really being used for stereo width and the ability to use both silk red and blue at the same time.
Depends what the desired outcome is. Nothing 'toy-ish' about anything RND.
If you're processing stems the MBT EQ is perfect. This is a highly versatile box that far exceeds just mastering applications.
Thanks, I almost bought SSL Fusion 😄 I think the transformer on SSL Fusion is fantastic, alive, raw etc. The main question remains: How noisy is the drive on SSL Fusion:)) It's so noisy you can't use it in mastering? Now, that's a big noise:) Why did they do that?
I've always found the Fusion transformer to be very subtle, I guess, compared to other transformers. The vintage drive is really noisy and can't be used in mastering unless you want to add a lot of unnecessary noise. Not a nice surface noise either. My guess why they did it was to make it sound vintage.
Do they even compete in the same market segment? Not convinced they do.
Once made to a budget. Other whilst lacking some features has little compromise for what it does. Like comparing a Ford ST to a BMW M car.
Would a fairer comparison be whether the Fusion / Bus+ combo works better than an MBP/MBT.
Plus are MBP/MBT buyers as price sensitive as the SSL target cusomer? I would wager not so have many other options to overcome any gaps in the MBT toolbox.
This is exactly the point I made. This is the reason I said it isn't the Fusion killer. Based on price alone it's for two different markets.
@@AudioAnimalsStudio agreed. i was commenting as I watched. Good vid. 👍
@@infojunkie4989 makes sense. I was thinking that's literally what I'm saying. Are we watching the same video.
Is the stereo widener on this thing similar to a nice bell filter boost on the sides? Or does it really have extra tricks to widen the signal (like ozone imaging module has I think).
I don't feel there is any extra tricks. To me it feels more like just increasing the side information in volume from a specific frequency.
Just didn't jive with MBP and the box tone, which I can immediately hear in the MBT. "Get a better sound" is subjective. The Neves do something to the transients just running audio through it that I just don't jive with. Its smooth. When and where it works, its great. But it doesn't work on everything. He likes the Buzz as well, which smooths things. I can run out right now and buy an MBT without blinking, but I wouldn't because what he describes as high end analog, is a sonic footprint that I'm not always fond of, and doesn't work on everything. At least not in the way I want things most times I can see why he characterizes one one way (high end analog gear), and the other another way (a plugin). I have fusion and buss+, and am really happy with the various sonics and textures I can get from super clean to totally smooth. I'd just rather have the flexibility rather than be stuck with the Neve sound on everything, that for me, doesn't work on everything. Its also super funny that Neve essentially ripped SSL for their design.
Name one unit that works on everything… I can’t think of one. The SFE on the MBP is amazing.
i understand that the Neve MBT is great but, cmon, SSL Fusion is great, is not "OK" is a great tool, bee using it for some time now, the Drive, the Stereo Image, they sound great, maybe the MBT would soung better, may have better components ( it is more expenssive) but it doesn't mean that Fusion has "OK" Drive of parameters
The noise floor on the vintage drive is way too much for mastering. As a mastering engineer it unusable. Very different for you as a guitarist. We all have very different perspectives due to how we use it and the purpose we are using it for.
Fusion is fantastic value for money.
Maybe the real question is does it kill off the Vertigo saturator?
Definitely not. But you could have one or the other.
When will ssl make the mbp killer?
They are probably getting the plans over to China as we speak.
What's MBP ?
Question: Is the SSL Fusion + SSL Bus+ the MBT killer?
It's certainly a closer competitor to the MBT. I would still prefer the MBT because of the super silk. But if you are focusing on compression the bus + is a better compressor than the compressor on the MBT.
You make an argument about people who buy more and more gear, and more and more parts the Fusion eventually get replaced. Well, for one thing, I believe the Fusion was made for those, who work mainly in the box, and want some analog mojo to the end of their chain. I believe the Fusion does exactly that. (I didn't test the Fusion or the MBT, though; but this argument feels a bit off in this regard.)
There's a difference between what it's made for and how it ends up getting used. The Fusion does do what you are saying it does which is exactly why my answer here is that the MBT is not the Fusion killer. For me, my complete mastering chain was the Fusion killer. I say this in the video. Your point here is my point. You start your chain with the Fusion. I always recommend this. But as your chain grows the Fusion becomes redundant except for the mid side insert which is still very useful.
It's a shame that the MBT doesn't have an external insert socket like the Fusion, so I have to run my mastering compressor after the MBT.
It is a shame, but if it added 1k to the price, I'd rather it be cheaper. But that's because I already have a mid side processor. Maybe two options with and without would be a compromise.
Clariphonic has a mid side insert
Yes and it's very good for that. I use mine with the Maag EQ4m which is a really nice combination
.
The Vintage drive (at least on my Fusion) is so noisy that I find it unusable. It periodically creates like a static sounding noise in the low mid rage in the left side. During quiet passages in a song its way to noticeable to use. Very disappointing. MBT will be my Fusion killer without a doubt. As you stated before, The fusion does a bunch of things but other units do them all much better.
Unrelated,
Have you tried the 500 Series Singular Audio Tube Drive? Im considering trying one out on drum bus duties.
I remember the day I got the Fusion and went to use the vintage drive. That was the last time I used it. Every unit is the same. Very disappointing. If budget wasn't an issue and you don't need the mid side insert. The MBT wins every time and kills the Fusion off.
Cheers Paul@@AudioAnimalsStudio Yes the MBT is a bit more than I would usually spend but im going to sell the Fusion and a few other pieces to soften the blow. Mid side I have other options so no issues there.
Price is different for a reason..that MBP will swallow that fusion. Period.
The MBP is a different model to the MBT. But yes the MBP does swallow the Fusion. But on the Fusion side, it does have a mid side insert.
i have both and i gotta say im not gonna be reaching for the fusion as much these days, its funny cause this guy talking about the fusion very much mirrors my thoughts, like meh, its just ok
That's because I speak truth and facts, which sometimes hurts a few feelings. We share the same thoughts because we have first hand user experience of owning both.
For what I see in your rack, the MBT is a MBP portico II killer……
This video is coming, I am in two minds still. I am currently in the honeymoon phase with the MBT
It is an interesting evolution and begs the question. If you have a MBP then do you ‘replace’ or redeploy the MBP? ….. if I get the MBT, then I’m thinking the MBPs will deployed onto mix bus duties one on each of the 5059’s groups of 8. and place MBT on the 2-bus. Maybe overkill.
@@infojunkie4989 the mbt and mbp can certainly work together. For I use the Portico 2 for sfe only so the mbp doubles up in some ways.
Thanks, the honeymoon phase is the best - @@AudioAnimalsStudio
@anaisvania then she starts to argue with you and not letting you go see your mates down the pub.
“People always ask me is Rupert Neve MBT the SSL Killer?” Smh “People are feeble minded trust your own EARS!!!!!!!!!!!
What if they own an SSL fusion and haven't got access to the MBT. These are the people that tend to ask this question. I'm sure if they had an MBT, they'd be able to use their ears, but if they don't own one, it's very difficult for them to know.
That’s reasonable. I personally own the SSL Fusion and from my experience it’s subtle yet necessary ex. The low end tightens up. The Rupert I need to try.
no. The Fusion has so much more capabilities. Neve is always trying to play catchup.
A jack of all trades is a master of none. Comes to mind.
@bradleypower4803 Neve just released the world's first Dolby Atmos console. SSL playing catch up there.
@@AudioAnimalsStudiothat’s ideology and potentially bias for sponsorship. I could be interpreting wrong if so apology.
@KennyGuyte if I want something I go out and buy it. I'd happily have either a SSL console or Neve console.
@@AudioAnimalsStudioboth brilliant engineering devices.
Man if affordable was just “good” Elysia would run out of business.
Overhyping MBT just doesn’t make it any better - it’s just not very appealing, taking or not taking price-point into account 🤷♂️
I'm just here to answer users questions in an honest manner. Sorry if every time I do you get upset. All the best and I truly do hope you find happiness with every comment.
MBT about 2500$ over priced.
SSl fusion was a confusion, I think it degraded my masters. SSL is Chinese shit along with warm audio.