Repertoire: The BEST Bruckner Sixth Symphony
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2020
- Although it's Bruckner's shortest mature symphony, the Sixth contains some of his most daring as well as captivating ideas. In this video, I discuss the form of the first movement extensively to try to explain how marvelously (and intelligently) Bruckner builds his imposing and original symphonic structures.
Musical Examples courtesy of Naxos Records - เพลง
Dave, as I write this , it is now Friday October 20, 2023. This afternoon I attended a performance of this Symphony with The Philadelphia Orchestra under Mirga Grazinte-Tyla. Before the concert there was a lecture given by a young cover conductor for the Orchestra. She cited your analysis with great admiration and used much of it as an important guide to the Symphony. Just wanted you to know this. Dave, people are watching and listening!
Wow, thank you. I had no idea.
I think your videos need to come with a warning that they are highly addictive. They really are terrific. I have discovered so many recordings based on your recommendations. I wish you would do one on the solo piano of Debussy particularly the two books of Préludes.
Oh, that will happen, I promise.
I couldn't agree more.
Another nod in agreement here. Love listening to his recommendations.
He has a very fresh and joyful approach to music, even when he's complaining (which we all love :D). Thanks for making life better Mr. Hurwitz and reigning in our understanding of the order and chaos of classical music.
Blomstedt and the San Francisco Symphony is my favorite. Thanks for devoting a video to this masterful symphony. It is my favorite Bruckner work.
The newer recording of Blomstedt with the Gewandhausorchester is phenomenal as well.
I keep coming back to Haitink's splendid 2017 Bavarian RSO live recording. It combines deep understanding with a level of focus and vitality which belies his advanced age, all recorded quite clearly. BTW Tintner also made the Martinu Phil play the Bruckner 6th much better than I expected.
Dear Mr. Hurwit: Thank you for this interesting master class about Bruckner Sixth. It´s one of my favorite. I hope you do the same with No. 8. For me, it´s the pinacle of the symphonic art. Best Regards from Venezuela.
I love the 8th too. Especially the finale. Bruckner really shows Wagner how it's done (though I think Wagner was already dead by then).
I'm overwhelmed! I thought to know Bruckner rather well. But this was a special insight! Thank you so much!
You're so welcome!
Just coming to this, albeit a year late but thank you Dave for explaining, in your own inimitable way, the form and structure of Bruckner’s 6th, of which in your introductory talk has enlightened me more about this work, more than I did before.
David, I've been a fan of your Classics Today site for years and only discovered a few days ago that you had a TH-cam presence. These videos are so good! Thank you for feeding my love of classical music with your incredible knowledge.
Wow, thank you!
Thank you for such an enlightening and thorough discussion of Bruckner’s 6th. It took me awhile to appreciate the work, but now it’s one of my favorites. I have Klemperer’s recording which I agree is special. I’ll have to try some of your other recommendations.
Great commentary, thanks! An additional note about the Coda of Mvt. 1. The Coda give off an impression of inexorable strength and naturalness. One reason could be is that every chord in the coda is in Root Position, until the huge penultimate diminished 7th chord. Bruckner works though all 12 chords, some more than once. Each chord is given a few measures, before changing. This creates a wonderful effect (at least to me) of a giant wheel spinning along... It's quite astonishing..
Good point, and very true!
Great insight. Thank you, Mr. Hurwitz!
Love these videos! Hoping to see one on Bruckner 8 soon!
Well, he only wrote 9, or 10, or 11 symphonies, so I'll get there eventually.
Animal, vegetable, mineral. Followed by reading, ‘riting, and ‘rithmatic, no doubt. I bought the Tintner box on the strength of your endorsement and I absolutely love it! I’m going to read the widow Tintner’s biography of her late husband soon. Jochum remains my favorite Bruckner 6, but that takes nothing away from these worthy others.
Thanks so much for such a thorough, informative discussion of this work, which has become one of my favorite Bruckner symphonies. So glad it is undergoing a resurgence in popularity and appreciation. I have not heard Tintner, but agree with you on the merits of Klemperer/New Philharmonia, Jochum/Dresden, Haitink/BRSO, Barenboim/CSO, Stein/VPO, Keilberth/BPO, and especially Celibidache/Munich, which, as you say, is not as drawn out as some of his other Bruckner and reveals much detail in the scoring.So glad you acknowledge Barenboim/CSO with its characteristically fabulous brass playing. Additionally, I have the good recordings by Dohnanyi and Barenboim/BPO. My first experience with this symphony was Karajan/BPO; I was struck by the beautiful string playing in the second movement but also by a lack of thrust in the outer movements. I recall one reviewer commenting that Karajan had not conducted the piece enough to fully develop his approach (sounded like BS at the time). Disappointing overall.Thanks again; eagerly awaiting discussions of symphonies 8 & 9.
...rather brilliantly done, Professor Hurwitz and thank you...I believe there are 30 or so modulations Bruckner passes thru in the coda of the 1st movement, what an extraordinary moment that is, goosebump - inducing, you've done the symphony justice for those of us who consider Bruckner a desert island composer, we would surely appreciate more erudiate musings on the Master...)
Thanks for you comment Robert Risen! I couldn’t agree more with each and every word you said!!
This is the bit poetically described thus by Donald Tovey in his essay on the 6th:
"The whole coda is one of the greatest passages Bruckner ever wrote...The first theme mounts slowly in Bruckner’s favourite simultaneous direct-inverted combination, passing from key to key beneath a tumultuous surface sparkling like the Homeric seas. The trumpets join in a long-drawn cantabile, swelling and diminishing; until at last the rhythmic figure of the opening is heard, and the theme comes together in a fanfare."
Thanks for giving the Stein / VPO a shoutout! That was the first recording I heard of this symphony. What I love about it is its sense of drive, particularly in the opening theme of the first movement. It has this energy and muscularity that I don’t hear in other recordings you mentioned (specifically the Tintner and Klemperer, which verge on plodding for my taste). That opening theme could’ve been used for an action or adventure film from the 1950s. (I guess maybe that’s what colors my interpretation of that opening theme). Other recordings that have that similar sense of drive are Jochum / Dresden, Skrowaczewski, and the Barenboim / Chicago.
I see your point, but I like to think there are other approaches that work equally well, in their way.
I know what you mean about the film score similarity of the first movement. When I first heard the 6th, I had this uncanny feeling that I had heard that theme before.
@@wayneday3116 Maybe Lawrence of Arabia?...
Very informative. Definitely enjoy the deeper talks on works like this. Have heard all the recordings except Kleiberth so will have to look that one up. Klemperer, Jochum and Stein are my favorites. Figured Klemp and Jochum would get mentioned but glad to see Stein as well. Wonderful performance that seems forgotten by many. His Bruckner 2nd is my favorite of that one as well.
Brilliant analysis, Dave.
Your stuff is great: much thanks...
Wow! Brilliant lecture, one of your best. I learned a lot.
Glad you liked it!
HOLY SMOKES, I'm listening to the Horst Stein/VPO -- only a minute and a half in and I can already tell it's special. Perfect astringent Morse code in the strings at the opening; incredible crescendo to the perfect fake-out in the clarinet; blazing horns and brass seize the theme by the throat.
Lovely, TH-cam heaven for 40 minutes! Learnt a lot and yes, so right about Jochum's magnificent Bavarian brass.
Glad you enjoyed it, except it was the Dresden brass. But whose counting?
Thanks for upload! As it goes I have the Georg Tintner recording and it's fantastic
Great video!
lucked out and found the tintner/nz disc on amazon and as i said in anoter post the paray berlioz. i appreciate very much your going though the symphony so closely. it so happened i began to listen to it last week while word processing. had i hear it b4? shrug. but i loved what i heard, and while this may be debatable, it seems there are phantoms from other of his symphonies which work very well with the bulk of the rest of the 6th. this will bring to 4 the # of hurwitz recommended discs i have--two purchased earlier. thanks again. i agree with 'the arts traveler;' your videos are highly addictive
Fascinating analysis very insightful, just listened to Wand's Ndr 6th fantastic. Wand seems to be my go to guy since watching your videos 😎
I have read the conjecture that Bruckner suffered from OCD which, when one hears the continued use of "obsessive" repeated rhythmic figures (usually in his scherzos), might lend some truth to the assertion. Whatever the reason -- musical and/or psychological, --I dig 'em for their rock (the music)-like driving power. Thank you for this well-dome deep dive into the composer's style and structure. It is very illuminating. (I'm also glad you chose Celi's 6. I haven't found anyone else's adagio to be as yearning and passionate. Not coincidentally, it is also the slowest version of that movement that I've come across.)
Thanks for the interesting analysis. And for your engagement in promoting this composer, whom so many concert goers still don’t understand or like… Also bravo for your presentation - in a way understandable for your listeners - of the contrapuntal and rhythmic textures, and your structural observations. Nice going! - I have have adored Bruckner since I was a teenager, and have also happily had the opportunity of conducting some of his glorious music. The 6th is, as you say, a work that has undergone a popularity with recent cd producers, owing to its relative brevity. I remember when it was hardly ever played, even in Vienna (where I lived from 1982 to `92)! One of the most splendid concerts I ever heard was when Haitink brought the Concertgebouw to the Wiener Festwochen in the mid-80’s, playing - to my great joy - the A major Symphony. I sat in the 1st row at the Musikverein, where the shoes of the cellists (I was opposite the second desk) were about 2 feet from my nose… In any case: that concert - and here is the point I am finally getting to - remains the ONLY time I ever heard (live) the opening ostinato played correctly, as written; not, as on the Tintner disc (I like his Bruckner…including his well handled final bars of the symphony) - and by the way also when you sang the ostinato prior to your first excerpt - as if it’s all triplets, but rather as written: the upbeats to the triplets, meaning the upbeat to the 2nd and 4th quarters in every bar, are 16ths and therefore shorter and later! While making an entire string section sustain this rhythm correctly requires immense concentration and preparation, the effect is quite unique. Most conductors just don’t bother… I do recall an old Klemperer recording (Philharmonia, 1964) that does it (at a rather majestic tempo). Since you so correctly explain the pervasiveness and importance of this rhythms in the 1st movement, I’d be curious about your take on this question. In any case I strongly recommend anyone who doesn’t know it giving that old Haitink/RCO 1st movement (the 1971 recording) a(nother) listen. (And based on your recommendation I’ll give his Bayrischer Rundfunk version a try.) Thanks also for the mention of Horst Stein, whom I knew and heard quite often in varied repertoire (Beethoven, Wagner, Strauss, Pfitzner...). Vastly neglected as a recording artist.
Well, my honest opinion is that you are making something out of nothing! The difference is one of microseconds and it has no impact on the structure, meaning or impact of the music. Of course it's better to be accurate, but what those other performances do is well within acceptable parameters.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for the quick response! Of course it's a matter of opinion, but precisely because rhythm is so particularly important in that movement, I believe this is not "nothing" because the sharper upbeat changes the character of the ostinato, from relaxed to tense. Had Bruckner wanted it to be all triplets he would have notated it that way, I feel certain. Of course in the 18th century, such upbeats were adapted to the triplet rhythm that followed; but in the 19th, 2 against three (or in this case 3 against 4) is polyrhythmic (like in the slow mvt. of Schumann 4, for example). Unless you are saying - which I can't believe - that you can't hear the difference?
@@inSaxony I hear it, but just because you hear it doesn't mean that (a) it matters or (b) your characterization has the meaning that you say it does for anyone other than yourself. Of course, I respect the fact that it matters to you!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks. Of course, it also mattered to Klemperer and Haitink (at the least - there must be others who did this), so this is not anything I am taking any credit for. I'd like to add that when I heard that Haitink concert, some 40 years ago, I was particularly thrilled with the cellos & basses (sitting so close) and how they maintained the rhythm all the way through. Also was very taken with how those cellos seemed to be watching Haitink a lot, i.e. looking directly at him rather than at their music... which meant the preparation must have been extraordinary. - You are of course right about "what meaning" something has for sundry listeners. I meant that the character is changed by the altered rhythm - which can certainly be interpreted differently by listeners. - Also wanted to say that my Bruckner audio collection includes that wonderful Ormandy 5th you extolled elsewhere. Among other things, the rhythmic rigour in the brass playing is esp. noteworthy.
Bruckner's Sixth was the very first Bruckner piece I ever heard, and it was Georg Tintner's Naxos performance. I just picked it up on a whim, with a bunch of other random classical music CDs. So, I'm glad to view this video! :) I really enjoyed the symphony on first listen, and ended up seeing it live at the Boston Symphony Orchestra maybe 1-2 years later...
Bruckner's 6th is definitely in my top 4 of Bruckner symphonies (the others are 5, 8 and 9) so this video was very much appreciated. Finding reviews or comparisons of recordings is pretty easy in general, but I haven't seen a discussion of Bruckner's sonata form that's both in-depth and easy to understand for the non-expert so thanks for that!
It's definitely in my top 11.
@@DavesClassicalGuide my top 11 are the 11 Bruckner's symphonies... Joking, OK, but my top 7 certainly are his 3rd - 9th ;)
how could I have consciously missed the obvious fact that the the oboe rhythm in the adagio is identical to the "chirpy" 3rd subject in the finale although subconsciously I must have realised it as everything about this fabulous symphony -- one of my absolute favourites -- just seems to flow so naturally. The analysis is perhaps the most useful I've ever come across of this work. And I appreciate the plaudits for the often underrated Tintner even though we seem to be of a different opinion as to his choice of revision in the symphonies where that is critical.
Hi David, thanks for this lecture and review. Just wanted to add that Horst Stein studied at Hochschule für Musik Köln and his conduction teacher was --- Günter Wand!
Enjoying the Skrowaczewski cycle, thanks to your broad knowledge of Bruckner production, thanks a lot
Thank you very much, Mr. Hurwitz, for this traversal! My favorite Bruckner 6 is definitely the Teldec Keilberth, and second to that would be the studio, stereo Klemperer. Another one of my favorites is an unknown recording with-believe it or not-Vaclav Neumann and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra from 1973! It is in quite good sound and the playing is really impressive; exciting and cerebral in just the right way.
Vienna Symphonic is known for its Bruckner sound - my favorite document of the sixth is with them. Bruckner is no idiot - he was is a genius.
I agree in a big way that Bruckner was is a genius. It was surprising to see that recording because Neumann is not known as a Bruckner conductor, really....no surprise, otherwise that it is a wonderful recording.@@uraniastern5755
Thanks for this overview! There is also a 175th Anniversary (live) recording of the VPO performing the 6th with Mariss Jansons! It’s also very good and nicely recorded. The scherzo is one of the best I’ve heard...and I’ve heard MANY!
See! I knew someone would come up with another VPO recording, somehow. Thanks.
Available on TH-cam. th-cam.com/video/JGhuXkLK4OM/w-d-xo.html
Thank you for mentioning Horst Stein's B6. I got this on a gamble, wanting to replace my Klemperer CD, but a reviewer on Amazon described it (Klemp) as "comatose". Stein was the conductor of the LvB 5 on the budget Somerset label, the first symphonic record I ever purchased around the time of the Beatles '65 album. I decided to see what other game Stein had after many decades and got the B6. Not a too enthusiastic Bruckner fan, but I thought the performance very satisfying. I've tried, but can't yet make out the quarter-note triplets in the second module.
Konwitschny's B4? Liked that and his B2 also. Also have had Klemp and Schuricht B5, Knappertsbusch B3, Giulini B7, Horenstein B8.
Horst Stein with he Vienna Philharmonic. I loved that one ever since I found the LP of it at the Tower Records Clearance Store in Manhattan.
I've been getting into Bruckner for the first time lately, and definitely when the C Theme comes up I always think "Ah! The pirate theme!"
Thanks Dave. I've been holding off on giving Bruckner a shot because his works seem a little hard to follow compared to say Beethoven or Brahms. I'll give #6 a try with the commentary you gave in mind.
I got to know this symphony from the earlier Jochum with the BPO and still have great affection for it. Tintner also recorded this symphony separately in Europe - with the Bohuslav Martinu Philharmonic, not easy to find, but it was very well played. I also enjoy the Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Hamburg/Simone Young version.
Bevor I go to bed here in Germany I saw your latest video. My favourite recordings: Wand, Celibidache, Klemperer and Stein (!). So, no objection. Good night !
Sleep well!
I like the way Celibidache shouts out in the climax at the end of the first movement. It may be an affect but the heavens really do seem to open up at that point.
Thanks for this excellent overview. What about Sawallisch ? It was my introduction to the work and still stands among the very best.
No actually, it doesn't stand among the very best. As I noted already in these comments, it is an ordinary and uninspired version, dully engineered. I'm very surprised anyone can remain loyal to it given the quality of the subsequent competition. Otherwise, you are very welcome!
Very insightful regarding form. Wish you would apply that same insightfulness to the complete Ninth, which, despite the negligence of his estate's executor, we have enough of to determine that he meant it to be a "finale symphony."
I'd add another one to your list. The Lopez Cobos/Cincinnati Sym. Orch. performance. You really liked it back in olden days (Nov./Dec. 1991 Fanfare Magazine).
That was then. Yes, it's very good.
My first Bruckner 6th was Keilberth aged about 16. Still have it! The coda of the first movement is one of my very favorite Bruckner sections. I always thought the ‘Animal’ theme in 1st movement sounded like a John Ford western.
Yes me too! Or maybe The Return of the Seven.
Thank you for this wonderful and deep analysis. The vertical use of modules certainly comes from Bruckner being an organist in his heart. It's basically him using the orchestra like a meta-organ.
Well, I disagree with the organ analogy, but you're welcome.
We agree on the Tintner version. It has always been my No 1. I was really interested to hear what your favorite would be and was astonished. His comments to the Naxos recordings are also very insightful.
@@DavesClassicalGuide However, there are many moments in Bruckner that evoke the organ aesthetic, like the "reverb" section in the finale of the 3rd symphony, along with the "Registerwechsel" dynamic changes in so many of his movements. The sudden unexpected modulations have also been seen (by some) as originating in his fabled abilities when improvising on the organ.
@@inSaxony Please, no. That is such a facile and lazy view. You might as well say that any passage by anyone in close harmony, or any chorale for orchestra, imitates the organ. And music employing notated echo effects has been around since the Renaissance.
@@DavesClassicalGuide "Facile and lazy view" - merely because I reiterated the established facts of Bruckner's orchestral textures being influenced by his organist skills? Nor did I say he was the first to imitate the organ in orchestration details. Just that he occasionally does so. I must say it is a new experience to be called "facile and lazy" - having engaged in close harmonic and thematic studies of Bruckner since I was a student at the Hochschule (as it was then called) in Vienna. My conducting teacher, Prof. Österreicher, was first clarinetist in the Vienna Philharmonic, and had played Bruckner under many great conductors; he imparted his love of Brucknerian detail to his students whenever possible (and used to conduct a Bruckner symphony every year with the Hochschulsinfonieorchester at the Musikverein - so we, as his students, got to transfer his bowings to the parts, help with sectionals etc.) This was enormously helpful to me when I conducted Bruckner myself, later on.
I really like the Solti+CSO recording of this piece.
I'm surprised this one wasn't mentioned David.
That recording was my introduction to Bruckner like 40 years ago, and got me hooked.
Leonard Bernstein wasn't the greatest fan of Bruckner. But with the 9th which he thought was an absolute masterpiece, the sixth he found a
delight. He didn't like the eighth. But could play the whole symphony on the piano without a score. Alfred Newman may of thought that
the beautiful main theme from the adagio would be his "Song of Bernadette" But for me the first movement of the sixth is one of the
finest movements in all of the Bruckner canon. And its themes inspired many 20th century film blockbusters. Including " Lawrence of Arabia"
"The Big Country"" Born Free". I gave up after counting thirty modulations in the chorale coda . Which for me is the most original melodic , spiritual ,
example of classical music.
The adagio oboe-theme transformation in the finale is for me a similar thing Schumann did in his 2nd symphony: the sad adagio-theme turning to the funny in the finale.
Thanks for that insight. Interestingly, Bruckner didn't like the Schumann symphonies at all.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I've heard he called them "Sinfonietten" :))
Dave - greetings from the Penal Colonies. While I do not share your appreciation of Tintner and a New Zealand orchestra in this domain - and especially so when Karajan, Stein and Klemperer are readily at hand - your great love of this miraculous music shines on through - great stuff. To date, I have never quite known what to call the "timpani recapitulation' some eight minutes into the opening movement - so thanks for the clarification. Not a few of us await your survey of the Bruckner 8th which will shade the Battle of Kursk. Best wishes, B
I know, I know: the 8th. Haas vs. Nowak vs. Original Version--Oy Vey. I shudder at the thought. This talk was over 40 minutes, and I really want to get it done in less. I really need to think about it. Here's a tidbit just for fun: I saw a performance with Skroweczewski where he added a tam-tam to the second cymbal crash in the Adagio. Too bad it's not on the recording.
@@DavesClassicalGuide You're going to need a full hour. I am not sure which of your videos has had the most hits, but discuss the B8 and they will come. And given what it means to so many people, fireworks will ensue when you can only address so many versions to the exclusion of others.
@@bernardohanlon3498 Is that supposed to be an incentive?
@@DavesClassicalGuide “The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about.” - Oscar Wilde.
@@bernardohanlon3498 Yes, and look at where it got him.
big fan of Tintner's Bruckner recordings. Klemperer does a mean Bruckner 6th 2d mvmt.
I love Keilberth's, it was the first time that I grasped the Finale's ingenuity. Nevertheless, I will look for Stein's version
Would love to hear your ideas on Bruckner's Te Deum
Great talk on this great piece, I have played it before (cello) but did not realize all that was going on until you went through it. I wonder, given Bruckner's religiosity, if rather than "animal, vegetable. mineral" it might actually be "Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Combination of the three ideas in one in the coda of the trinitarian movements, equals complete realization of the divine.
A very attractive and almost welcome idea formally speaking, but no. It would be much too much oversimplifying, vulgarizing the Holy Trinity. Not that I take the right to express yourself away from you, on the contrary, but Dave's metaphor is appropriate. Bruckner himself would never trivialize the attributes of Father, Son and Holy Spirit that way.
There is a magnificent interpretation of this symphony that can be seen and heard on TH-cam. This is : Bruckner - Symphony No. 6 (Proms 2012). The conductor is Juanjo Mena with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra. Much better than Haitink that I just listened to on Spotify.
Haitink is a highly skillful craftsman, but has no character.
I'm glad you mentioned the Stein recording, but surprised that you didn't mention the Sawallisch recording on Orfeo. I'm not usually a great fan of this conductor, but he really rose to the heights here (aided by nice warm sound). Did his performance annoy you in some way?
I thought it was pretty ordinary, and the sonics a bit diffuse.
Thanks Dave for this super introduction and recommendations. I remember another 6th praised by the earlier Penguin Guides conducted by Sawallisch on Orfeo, but had no chance to listen to it yet. Any opinion on that one?
So-so. In that series Nos. 1 and 5 are outstanding.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks David, I won't chase it then, life is too short for so-sos. ;-)
@@gyulahunyor8267 No need to chase that recording - it's on youtube. I think it's great.
th-cam.com/video/B5XrFI8k-YU/w-d-xo.html
Thank you for your passionate advocacy of this masterpiece.
It's Klemperer for me all the way. For one thing, his opening is truly 'majestoso' (Bruckner's spelling) so that you can hear the rhythmic motif properly. Too often the first two notes sound like they are in the same triplet rhythm as the next three, which is WRONG.
Listening to your very interesting description of Bruckner's use of form made me go to my copy of Robert Simpson's The Essence of Bruckner, published in 1967 but still the best book about Bruckner's music. Guess what the dedication page says? "To Jascha Horenstein who interprets Bruckner with love and authority". You did mention Horenstein...
Yep. He did some good Bruckner back in the day.
I agree but it's quite difficult to differentiate the dotted 8th-16th rhythm from the 8th note triplets over time.
@@1mctous you are quite right of course, but Bruckner (who was very meticulous) took the trouble to write it this way, so he must have expected to hear the difference in performance. As early as the end of the second measure, he has the dotted and the triplet rhythms at the same time, with the cello and bass upbeat of the first theme - and keeps at it for the rest of the first movement. It makes the molto ritard at the end of the first movement particularly tricky!
I wrote a similar comment (on the rhythm of the 1st mvt. ostinato) recently. Klemperer gets it. Also Haitink, on the 1971 recording, faster than OK but also refreshing in the rhythmically correct manner of the ostinato - which, imho, adds so much character!
I totally agree that Robert Simpson's book is essential reading for any Bruckner scholar or enthusiast.
David, any thoughts on Rögner’s interpretation of the 6th as released by Brilliant Classics? Or Rögner’s Bruckner in general?
Not special.
Regarding the distinction in Bruckner's symphonies between "first movement" and "finale" symphonies - which I think is a valid one - this could play into why Bruckner was unable to envision the finale of the 9th. It seems to be a first movement symphony, yet Bruckner wished to transform the darkness into something triumphant, perhaps as much out of theological as musical reasoning. Yet this simply was asking too much of the finale, and in the end it could not be done.
An interesting proposal, but it could be just one of a thousand possible reasons God has not granted Bruckner the opportunity to finish this unprecedented astonishing work. We'll never know until we're there where Bruckner is now.
I'm also addicted to this series. It seems that David did a Brucknerian exercise of revision, his videos about repertoire being longer and longer (which we, of course, love).
The Adagio of this symphony was my entry to Bruckner... in the interpretation of Celibidache and the MSO. Honestly, I can't think of any other interpretation that rivals it.
Can someone advise me on the Nelsons cycle for DG? Thanks
Have a look at my reviews of the Nelsons recordings on ClassicsToday.com. Bottom line: they mostly suck. Sorry for the length. That one was long because I wanted to talk about form and use musical examples. The video on the Eight will only be about 23 seconds long, hopefully.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I meant that I love that they are getting longer and longer because I enjoy them a lot! And thanks for the Nelsons, I'll take a look on your website.
There is a great expectation for your Bruckner 8th repertoire video. If the 6th lasted 45 minutes, I wonder with this one...
@@armandodelromero9968 Oh the pressure! The pressure!
Yes, Stein has the VPO so its like cheating in a way. The VPO brass has a certain sound that i adore. I do not know what it is, i wish someone could explain to me.
The VPO use older brass instruments, prticuarly the Vienna Horns, which are harder to play than the typical French horn and have their own special (and awesome) sound. The VPO also use tradition viennese oboes and timpani that sound completely unique.
Dave - have you ever noticed that near the beginning of the 2nd movement (about 14 seconds into the Tintner recording) the strings’ melody goes “there’s a place for us”? It can’t be a coincidence that the only two Bruckner symphonies Bernstein conducted were 6 and 9...
I agree that the resemblance is there, but your argument is a classic case of the logical fallacy known as "post hoc ergo propter hoc" or "after this therefore because of this." The fact that one event succeeds another, however suggestively, is not evidence of a causal relationship between them.
@@DavesClassicalGuide It's funny because I always hear Bernstein's "there's a place for us" melody in a phrase in the slow movement of Beethoven's Emperor piano concerto...Thank you for the analysis of this symphony, it was very helpful, especially the part. I've been listening intently to classical music for over 40 years, and I guess Bruckner is the only "major" classical composer I feel I haven't quite "gotten" yet. But I'm still working on it. I once worked in a classical record store, and my co-workers occasionally played the Karajan recording of the Bruckner Sixth. They called it the "Lawrence of Arabia" symphony....
I'm sorry, I meant to write "very helpful, especially the animal. vegetable, mineral part"
Yes please - Have only recently discovered David. For me the 8th is the greatest and most interesting. Please tell us David if you will be rewarding us with your views.
George, UK
I will do them all, but I'm not rushing. Neither did Bruckner. Ever!
I'm listening to Celibidache's Bruckner series. The 6th is a great symphony like all of them 4- incomplete 9, though I confess to not having listened to 00-3 yet. But aha, I have listened to his chamber music (quartet and quintets- recommended). I don't why the 6th is the 'ugly duckling' of Bruckner symphonies. It has plenty of symphonic novelty and harmony and equality constructions and surprises throughout. It is more airy (if I can say that) than his other symphonies and if anything, to me more 'romantic' than the 4th. It'l definitely not the drilled repetitions characteristic of Bruckner, so maybe that''s why it wasn't well received. Bruckner also turns some of his usual tricks and devices on their heads, especially in the 4th, making it very interesting. Saying it that though, Celibidache's adagio (2nd M) is LOOOOONG and SLOOOOOW, making it to me (literally) a snoozer. Fortunately, I splashed some cold water on my face for the last 5 minutes or so, which are extraordinarily fragile and pretty. I definitely want to catch the whole thing again.
Where do you weigh in on the argument that Bruckner kept trying to write the same symphony over and over? You mentioned in your Mahler Third video that each Mahler symphony is its own world, distinct from the other symphonies. How does Bruckner compare as far as that goes? I’ve heard all the Bruckner symphonies, but have only come back to the 7th, 8th, and 9th. What am I missing by neglecting the earlier ones?
Bruckner's style was much more limited than Mahler's in its range of expression, but within his idiom there is wide variety. You tacitly suggest this when you say that you've heard all the symphonies but only listen to 7-9. Is this because the others have nothing to add, or because they are so different that they don't fit your preconceptions? The only way to answer that is for you to listen to them and decide for yourself.
In the first movement, surely the bass E in the timpani in bars 207-8 moving to A in bar 209 marks bar 209 (letter N in Nowak) as the start of the "true" sonata form recapitulation, and the cello passage starting at bar 229 (letter O) is the counterstatement?
Exactly correct. Recapitulation is a matter of reestablishing the tonic.
By the way, it's also letter N in Haas.
Are you going to be writing a Bruckner book? I’d buy it! I have your Mahler (of course), Shostakovich, Dvořák, Sibelius, and Strauss books.
Possibly! We'll see.
@@DavesClassicalGuide jFirst do the Vaughan Willliams symphonies please (as I've rqeuested before)
please!
@@davidaltschuler9687 Videos, yes, book, not on the agenda. It's not my call.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I forgive you ;-)
The Decca Eloquence website seems to be either hacked or the registration not renewed. Does anyone know the story here?
I know they are working on a new design and relaunch. Should be back shortly.
Remy Ballot by a mile thank you. If the Brucknertage at St Florian ever resumes after the panicdemic try and go. You'll love it.
Que coincidencia! I reviewed that disc for ClassicsToday.com. Insiders, go check out the sound clip comparisons with the (excellent) Celibidache. Here is my review:
CD From Hell: Ballot’s Vile Bruckner Sixth
Artistic Quality: 3
Sound Quality: 7
Rémy Ballot has no affinity for music. There I’ve said it. How this self-styled Bruckner “specialist” managed to swindle his way into leading the Upper Austrian Youth Orchestra in live recordings of Bruckner’s symphonies is one of those anomalies that only general deafness or, more probably, access to funding, can explain. Ballot’s sole purpose in life seems to be to play this music even more slowly than Sergiu Celibidache, only with this difference: the Romanian conductor knew what he was doing, while Ballot evidently does not.
It’s not just that Ballot takes nearly seventy minutes to get through this, Bruckner’s shortest and perkiest mature symphony, nor that the circumstances of live recording in the cavernous acoustic of St. Florian monastery play havoc with the music’s internal balances. Tempos in the quicker bits are in fact plausible, if slow, except in the lethally flaccid scherzo. No, the problem is that Ballot stretches out Bruckner’s theoretically “singing” second subjects to ungodly lengths, preventing the music from ever taking flight or, heaven forbid, dancing that way that it should.
Compare Ballot to Celibidache in the finale’s second subject. The latter sings, and more importantly, moves, whereas Ballet just get slower, and heavier, and duller. The Adagio lasts more than twenty-one minutes, and is virtually unlistenable. There really is no excuse for indulging this kind of unmusical nonsense before a live audience, never mind on a recording. Ballot’s intrepid orchestra of talented kids isn’t great, but somehow manages to get through it. That brings the rating up to a 3. Let’s face it though: this isn’t music. It’s child abuse. Someone call social services and get this guy off the podium.
@@DavesClassicalGuide A very passionate review indeed. Well its all a matter of taste.
@@garywebster3585 Or in Ballot's case, a certain lack thereof! ;)
@@DavesClassicalGuide :)))))
Discussion around 5 min. one of the most insightful things I've heard/read about AB. I saw Celi live in Boston perpetrate one of the worst performances of anything I've ever heard (Strauss' Don Juan), but he's perfect in Bruckner 6. Slow mvt. sublime, and he doesn't rush the finale, the downfall of many, maybe all, mediocre readings of the work.
Thank you.
I found in a discount store, the Bruckner's conducted by Roberto Paternostro. What do yo think about this? For less than 20 dollars, I grabbed it. Not bad, but not sensationnal.
I'm surprised there was no mention of Dohnanyi with Cleveland. Maybe not the best but I think among the greats.
I as well.
I did mention it.
If, as you accurately say, the Sixth was never revised, why does your Naxos edition cite "R. Haas" as the editor?
Someone had to do it.
Did you study this piece academically or privately?
All I did was listen to it, a lot, and think about what I was hearing.
I know you wrote a thesis on Hindemith - what are your draftees for? I know you’ve mentioned it but I don’t know which video.
Eh? Mentioned what?
Sorry, I meant “degrees” not “draftees.”
did Bernstein record this symphony?
Technically no, but there is a live performance kicking around. It's not very good.
@@DavesClassicalGuide thanks.
I quite enjoy Wand, Jochum, and Barenboim mentioned in this video. Oddly enough I *generally* prefer the tempos in Barenboim's later recordings, but the performances just aren't as good as or even as well recorded as the CSO recording. Other than that, some of my favorite Bruckner 6ths are conducted by Kubelik, unfortunately he never got to make a studio recording.
Blessings upon your avuncular intelligence, and for the occasional wickedness of presentation. I am a victim of 'first time is best', not in that sense, but in hearing Bruckner 6 for the first time, on BBC Radio 3 in about 1990. I think it was the BBC PO, under Gunther Herbig, in what sounded like a cathedral acoustic in the Escorial Palace, near Madrid. What they were doing there playing Bruckner I cannot guess. I have tried all the standard conductors. And Celi, Tintner, et al. Alas, there is nothing like your first time. :'-/
Exactly. That's why Klemperer (in 4, 6, 7) will always remain the milestone for me. Of course, the limitations of the recording technique of the date and the grave style of the post-disaster-world-war era make that it cannot compete for the all-time best title, but...
Yes on Barenboim/CSO and Skrowaczewski. Those have been my top selections for that symphony ever since I got my hands on them for the very reasons you describe.
Re: Stein, I’m intrigued, but those big box reissues are really annoying to me. Why should I plunk down money for such a mixed bag that duplicates some of what I already own just so I can have ONE disc out of nine? I already have the Böhm 4 (as anyone should), and that Solti Vienna 8 is one of the worst on record. It’s brutal. Evidence of the hatred between orchestra and conductor. It never should have seen the light of day, much less have been reissued. His later digital 8 with CSO (recorded live in St. Petersburg!) is light years better. I really find this whole big box mania beyond irritating. There are so many nice reissues buried in a big turd sandwich with piles of stuff nobody is likely to listen to a second time. And when you go looking for something you have to remember what box it’s in, since the spine won’t tell you in most cases.
Get over it. If you wanted ONE disc either download it or you should have bought it when it originally came out. We should be grateful this stuff is available at all. Do think these people are actually making money? It's a charity. Don't be ungrateful.
David Hurwitz get over yourself, man! I probably wasn’t alive when it first came out. I’m not expecting charity. But if the record industry had any shred of brains, they’d make their entire catalog open to bespoke online orders, so you can select the disc you want and they print it for you. You could even assemble your own ideal cycles! Imagine that! The technology is there. They’re just asleep.
Check your attitude. Stop turning people of from “keep[ing] on listening”!
I get weary of defending Bruckner because I’m not in the cult. ‘You like Bruckner?” When he gets up a full head of steam he can be 👍🏻. He’s not Mahler, but who is?
What's to defend? You simply like what you like.
Each his own. You wonder who can match Mahler in the symphony. Well for me there are composers that I find superior to Mahler. First Haydn, Beethoveen and Bruckner. Then Mozart (for the last 6), Berlioz, Janacek (Symphonietta) and Schoenberg (Peleas & Melisande, gurrelieder, Symphonie op 9). But it's good to love Mahler. He's a very good composer. But from there to say that there is no one else.
*Nobody!* Nobody is Mahler except Mahler himself. Not understanding Bruckner's span by some people (or general public) may have something to do with his popularity but doesn't define (let alone degrade) his real magnitude or value a slightest bit. Perhaps the opposite can be true!
When I interviewed Giulini I asked him for a comparison of two composers. He almost jumped in anger. Very resolutely he said "The genius can never be compared!". It took me a while to fully comprehend how relevant and intrinsic this aesthetic judgement was.
It would be fun if you could do a video for people like me who find Bruckner to be the epitome of boring music! I find it fascinating that people who know far more about music than me are prepared to devote hours of their lives to listening to him yet try as might I just cannot appreciate him. They say there is no accounting for taste! In one of your myth busting videos you say somethig to the effect that Liszt is worthless yet I find him much easier to appreciate than Bruckner.
That's fair. I can go for years without Bruckner, then all of a sudden it hits me. In all honesty, however remarkable some of the music is, I do think it is expressively rather limited, and so it might not be for you at this time. Don't sweat it.
I found that enjoying Bruckner really depends on the conductor the (probably since I don't keep track) the version of his work you are listeing to. For example, I always found Bruckner's 3rd to be a "pleasent" early work until I purchsed the Solti/Chicago version per Dave's recommendation. What a masterpiece! I still cannot appreciate the 8th, it plods on and is not coherrant to me. Even the great Wand version doesn't do the job for me. I just purchased a one disk newer version of what is supposed to be one of the best versions -- The Karajan/ Vienna. The initial release was an early digital version on two disks released over 30 years ago -- and has bad sonics. I hope I can apperciate it.