Watch The Manufacturing Process That DOOMED OceanGates Titan To Fail. But It NEVER Had To Happen.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- Footage of the process for making the carbon fiber pressure vessel. From start to finish.
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They took two dissimilar material and glued them together. Each of these materials react differently to extreme pressure and temperature changes. Add cyclic deterioration from multiple dives and you have a recipe for disaster.
you have a recipe for human pancakes.
But James Cameron says this was a known thing amongst all engineers and it wasn't some obscure scientific knowledge.
They were sniffing glue when they made the sub...
Carbon fiber has absolutely no place in the depths of the ocean. Not capable of handling that pressure to begin with.
A soda can was better built to survive than this submarine!
It feels very strange to watch a dead man narrate - proudly - the decisions that led to the destruction of both him and the lives of four others.
once in a lifetime experience!
Its like that grizzley bear man.
Yes he was super proud. I had to laught when I saw a video where he was super proud that he used a cheap game controller... What a clown. And real experts tried to warn him.
Proudly? Arrogantly!
@@clarkcolt45 Yeah i wouldn't have trusted that controller with a multiplayer match of street fighter but somehow in his eyes it was quality enough to trust 5 lives to.
Insanity. Stockton Rush was an aerospace engineer. He's spent his career working with internally pressurized structures. Filament winding things like scuba tanks or other compressed gas tanks is pretty well understood and reliable. The way fibers resist tension is very different from the way they resist compression. Scuba tanks that resist 5,000 PSI internal pressure are 5mm of aluminum wrapped in 5mm of Carbon. Less than 1/2 inch total. It changes as the vessel gets bigger but not a lot. Compressions is the tough one. Stomp on a beer can or stand on it then tap it with a feather. Once the fiber alignment is no longer in "column" it collapses instantly. Mangle the can and try to pull it in two under tension. Even mangled it's still strong....Tensions is simple. First thing they teach you in the Navy and Engineering school is you can't push a rope. Freeze it, wrap it in epoxy resin and to a point...you can push it. Navy subs are made of homogenous metals without bolted on, dissimilar, end caps. The technology to be safe exists. Monetizing Titanic tours is morally wrong and it clouded the man's judgement. He made decisions based on cost, not safety. Sadly it was all predicted and the predictions were ignored.
Based on cost? Also on wokeness and arrogance.
monetizing Titanic tours is no more wrong morally than tours of other p,aces on death, be it battlefields, the Rome Colosseum, or the Pyramids in Mexico. All places of death, and morally right to pay to tour.
@@davidgenie-ci5zl Lets just say that I would not be interested in traveling to such a serene and isolated place of such tragedy. It's interesting and for me the original pictures are more than enough. I come from a place where Tour operators have brawls on the roadside. I find the whole thing to be disturbing particularly the fact that in his quest to monetize this the "Money" got the better of his judgement.
You're forgetting that he's a Randian ubermensch and the rules don't apply to him. How dare you criticize your betters? /sarcasm
@@piglord3.05Most historical sites are places of death, though. Battlefields, castles, churches that sponsored crusades, massive stadiums for bloodsports. Everyone in history died.
I'm a 75 year old guy with no engineering degree but I have owned a lot of fiberglass boats and there is one fact that is always true. If you hear a cracking sound in a laminated structure it is the sound of de-lamination. Every time you hear cracking it is additional de-lamination until it cracks for the last time at failure.
It is claimed that on previous dives they heard cracking sounds.
This CEO was a narcissist and driven by absolute greed! He had absolutely no morals! May he burn in the 🔥 fires of hell🔥for eternity!
@@avernikasI wonder if they were ablo to hear it crack in the last dive
@@JojoFasoldthe assumption is they did because before the implosion they attempted to ascend.
And on other occasions while diving Stockton would give a preemptive “you’re gonna hear some cracks”
@@JojoFasold That would be sad to learn😳
There was a passenger that said they could hear when the Titan went into deeper water by how much louder the crackling sound the carbon fiber made was.
They could actually hear the carbon fiber being delaminated by expansion and contraction under the horrendous water pressure. Stockton Rush told the guy, "It's five inches thick, there is a long way to go before it will fail." Absolutely suicidal insanity.
I'm reminded of the Bible verse "Pride gbut goes before a fall and a haughty spirit before destruction" .
Sounds can also be heard in normal submarines, pressure is a danger friend...
The builders of the Titanic made similar statements.
" You hear that...? That is the sound of inevitability"
@@BELCAN57 another good scripture is,
Why be a fool, and die before your time.
Seeing that young engineer grinning and proud of his glue job gives me the chills. He says it as though he's building a go cart, not a deep sea submersible carrying innocent lives.
No one is innocent here and specially not billionaires!
He's done as an "engineer". I hope no one ever hires him. JMO
Shouldn't that have been done in a clean room?
@@nighttrain1236 I would suspect a pressurized clean room to remove any voids in the glue as well.....
That smirk yes pure arrogance the glue that holds the family together try saying that too the familys that have lost their loved ones.
Watching a man build his own coffin is eerie AF
A $250K coffin for tourists!
The man who built it doesn't want it, the man who bought doesn't need it, the man who needs it doesn't know it.
A coffin doesn't smash you into goo and squeeze you out into the ocean as fish food.
@@kneesoxxx7902 Different sub but same blueprint as for Titan. The only reason this carbon fiber garbage didn't implode is because they were at much shallower depths with Cyclops.
a bad coffin at that, if it got stuck at the bottom of the ocean it'd be a good coffin
The fact that this thing even made it down to 4,000m and back *once* is a miracle.
Actually couple times !
I think this was voyage #14.. with the 2nd carbon hull. The first one developed problems with use so this was the 2nd go. Or so I've heard. If that's the case, how did they dissolve / overcome the first round of adhesive? Was there any residue remaining on the titanium ring to cause non-uniformness of pressure? Anyway, I would like to know the failure mode of a carbon pressure vessel like this.. especially wrapped this way and not like normal cross wrapped carbon pressure vessels.
The Carbon fibre is one thing… a glued seal… on a submarine… joining different matierals…
The word glue being used at all !
I cannot believe it.
@@patricialmt5272I believe it was a few times
Maybe what that caused it to rupture
Having spent 30+ years as an Engineer in a business that makes submarines I only had one question: "Who is the Naval Architect who approved the design of this vessel?" The answer, sadly, is "It wasn't approved by a Naval Architect." The CEO acknowledges that composite pressure hull designs have been rejected as options by the World's submarine builders, there are some very good reasons why.
Same reason you will never see a fire hose made of cardboard.
Man, all those past days I thought the Titan cylinder hull was made of titanium in the inside and carbon on the outside. However it's starting to look like it was only carbon fiber, and only the end cap hemispheres are titanium, is that true?!
@@timoooo7320 yes
Well we don't know where it broke. Was it the hull even? Or the viewport that's only rated for 4000 feet? Or maybe something else entirely? One interesting theory posited is the seals around the viewport and hull broke and leaked. That's all it takes a micron of a leak around the rubber seals and it's game over. This is also highly plausible. So the hull may be completely intact so the sensors never went off.
@@jonfreeman9682 I don't think they've released pictures of the debris yet, but if the front titanium hemisphere still has the window on, then it's not likely that it was the window that failed. Also, I don't think a leak is very probable, since the outside pressure pushes the window against the sub, reducing the likelihood of a leak (unless the seal was bad to the point of worthlessness). The company that made the window didn't want to certify it to more than 1300m, but from what I understand that had more to do with the experimental aspect of the submarine as a whole.
I am not a marine engineer, but words cannot describe what I have just seen with them applying adhesive with plastic scrapers in a non dust free environment. How on earth where they meant to get a consistent seal with plastic car body filler scrapers. You wouldn't even paint a car in such an environment.
lol so true, also watch at all the air bubbles enclosed in the carbon
He wanted to be remembered asa rule breaker/innovator
@@3secondsago894 then don't take passenger
@@hyy3657 building a sub is expensive even when you know a rothschild. He was trying to turn a profit from the venture, nobody likes to be bankrupt but once you start something like this to get out you have to turn a profit, prob for his family or his own ego.
Out of sight, out of mind. Until it breaks, of course.
''If we mess it up there's not a lot of recovery''. He got that right.
That’s one thing he got right..
in more ways than one. The company will most likely not survive with the avalanche of lawsuits incoming, and of course the sudden drop in stock price and/or capital flight.
Literally one one-thousandth of a second worth of recovery.
For once...
"Safety is just pure waste" well he lived, breathed and died that motto.
Making a critical seal using glue in a non-sterile environment? Genius.
That shocked me too. No cleanroom, not even a clean tent and no degassing of the epoxy. 🤯
what does it matter if its "non-sterile"?
its glue and should never be used solely to join critical structures of pressure vessel.
@@darkshadowsx5949sure, but if you're determined to use glue you at least have to worry about contaminants like dust particles and air bubbles forming creating tiny pockets for failure points
I would have as a critical care doctor. Thought should this process of spinning carbon fibre. Be carried out in a clean room. Or me just a freek and clean the heck out b4 I get my hands on a patient
. Helps with bonding
It’s amazing that it lasted as long as it did.
True
My distrust in humans makes me think he wanted it to fail to become legend. He's 61, he knew better. The creepy part is why was he so hell bent to get a father and son on it? Why did he quickly abandon/cancel the rides with nobodies/free customers. He wanted to create a tragedy.
like Drunk Driving 5 times
Delusion of Safety
leading to the lethal Crash
correct
@@RatusMax The father and son paid him $250,000 to go. Why give free rides, when he could make that much? It was greed on is part.
As a mechanical engineer, if I designed that thing back in college, I would have been given an “F” with a big circle in dark, red ink
even I as a "tech amateur" with cars bikes bicycles and so on can see so ridiculously many flaws on first sight that I would not even go down my local lake with it
As a non engineer even I know you can't rely on glue to attach metal to a non metallic surface under extreme conditions and expect it to last. Of course that's experience talking and the conditions weren't that extreme, one winter in New England caused a plastic frame on a metal door to delaminate using super glue. I tried dozens of different adhesives and none worked for an entire winter. The super glue lasted the longest, from November to January then delamination. That is when I learned about unlike materials expanding and contracting at different rates. How any engineer wouldn't know this is beyond me unless they just hired mechanics to build the CEO's design without the benefit of someone with an actual engineering degree. Like how if you get hired on a movie set to plug in and unplug the lighting to move it around you automatically get the title "electrician."
@@nunyabiznez6381 I think most mechanics know this easily too
Stockton clearly knew this was a death trap sub, that's why he got all his passengers to sign all those waivers. I have a theory that his business wasn't doing well so he went down the cheap route of not using all titanium and mixing it up with already worn out carbon fiber. This man is guilty of more than negligent homicide, he is guilty of manslaughter.
I have done a PhD in Non Destrucutive Testing(NDT)of composite. And about 15 years back, I developed and used techniques for different thickness and different material filamant wound composite pipes using air-coupled ultrasonics and linear array imaging and convetional squireter based imaging for finding delamination at diffrent depth of composite.
Oceangate did not inspect the 5 inch thick pressure vessel with any of the state of art inspection techniques such as conventional ultrasonics, linear array ultrasonic or air-coupled ultrasonics. They tried to certify or give early warning using an inaccurate, low-tech online acoustic emission NDT technique. This method is good only in lab testing and can give warning just before or during an evolution of extensive failure of the vessel. However, this method info is of no use for the passengers at great depth of the ocean since failure is sudden.
Furthermore inspection techniques are not commecrially availabe for such dissimilar bonded composites that too with metal - composite intefrace, eventhough some techniques are still in research stage. Hence in aersopace sector for primary load bearing strucutres such bonded joints have two or three rows of bolts to make the design of bonded joint damage tolerant.
These manufacturing videos of Oceangate show how dodgy the manufacturing procedure was, poor winding or the layup design and tools used for such a mission critical pressure vessel. The manufacturing process by this company looks like a cheap small scale composite boat manufacturing facility! I highly suspect Oceangate submersible's bonding failed,
followed by buckling and implosion of the pressure vessel!
Thank you for sharing your views. As someone who doesn’t have any engineering background, with a common eye their bonding process just looks completely insufficient.
I think they thought whatever gaps or pockets or joins the design had, the pressure would just seal it all tight and everything would be great.
How much are you per hr?
Brilliant explanation. Sounds like CEO should have hired you to fix the sub problems then CEO would still be alive.
@@jonfreeman9682the problem was that the CEO fired everyone who doubted his ingenuity.
It's a miracle that it worked for so long...
True.
I wonder if cyclic fatigue was ever considered? Did they even consider it would weaken with every dive? I guess we will have to wait for the investigation.
@@Cheeky-fingersNope OceanGate didn't even consider it, they never had a number of deep dive before hull expired. The manufacturer of hull were also clowns, they predicted it be okay for at least 1200 deep dives.
I'm surprised that none of this appears to have been done in a clean room, just an open warehouse where dust and moisture can contaminate every step of the process and introduce failure points especially in the adhesives. This guy had access to decades of research and experience that others had accumulated in the submersible field and took advantage of none of it and in fact seems to have gone out of his way to ignore any warnings or misgivings that more experienced experts expressed to him.
backyard deep sub building. can't get more amateur than this
I follow a "slapstick" process all the time with my Depron DIY RC airplanes. About 50% of them crash before completing the third flight.
No respirators on.
what if a fly got stuck in between the carbon fibers??🪰🪰🪰🪰🪰
@@MrUranium238 Whole new Sci Fi movie
Interesting, thanks.
- Carbon fiber is good in tension and not in compression.
- The deformation rate of titanium and carbon fiber is not the same. Not good at the junction.
- Impossible to open the door from the inside (even if it was not the cause of this accident).
- Spheres are much more stronger than cylinders under pression. And the cylinder is not made of titanium.
- Cabon fibre gets weaker and weaker at each cycle (dive after dive).
- The computer strenght simulation is much more accurate with a metal part than with a carbon fiber part.
- If you want to dive at 3800m, you must do a test without anyone inside at 5000m at least.
- At 0:54 I am not sure but I have the feeling that we can see bubbles between the carbon fibre layers.
Etc...
And I'm not an engineer! I just like engineering. This gives you an idea of the Ocean Gate amateurism !
Greeting from France
Sorry for my english, it's not my native langage 😊
You're command of English is fine. I would not have guessed it was not your native language had you not stated so.
Anywhere below 50 meters would be nearly impossible to open the door even if the occupants wanted to.
Sub had already dived that deep a few times, it wasn't the capability, but more of the duration, repeat and longevity which wasn't tested after which they could have obtained an operational expiry date.
Seems like you are more intelligent than the builders of this submersible…what a tragedy.
@@DeploracleThey mean the door doesn't open from the inside, period. Even out of the water.
After this happened i learned about Steve Fossets Deep Flight Challenger. A submersible build from carbon fiber to go down into the mariana trench. However, this submersible was good for only one (1!!) dive, and supposed to become a museum exhibition after its one trip. It was expected the carbon fiber hull to deteriorate too much to be safe for multiple uses.
Richard Branson aquired it after Fossets death and planned to go commercial with it, until he learned of this fact. He quietly shelved it.
About that time Ocean Gate started with building the Titan. I think it is impossible that Rush didnt know about it. He must have known that carbon fiber hulls werent suitable for this purpose. He himself talked about the crackling of the hull and told everyone to expect it. Aka its normal. No, it was a countdown.
He said his acoustic sensors will detect the threat before diving too deep, that why he still go with it…
@@hyy3657 Hull failures under a pressure resembling about 80000lbs on your palm give no preliminary warning. You are just dead in milliseconds, without a chance of even realizing the fact. Its like switching the lights off. Your lights.
Every crackling noise was the hull saying "I am falling apart"
Take a thread, and pull on both sides. The thread will resist the pull. Thats what it can do. Now push both ends together. What will it do? It will bend. It cant resist the push. You cant push a rope. If you embed it in resin, the resin will resist your push. Basically only the resin. The thread would just prefer to bend. Thats what the carbon fiber in Titans hull was doing. It couldnt do anything else. People hear carbon fiber, it is used in airplanes, its a miracle material. On airplanes it has to resist inside pressure which wants to expand the hull, aka pull. Rush was an aerospace engineer. He knew about this. On a submersible the load is push, not pull.
The hull compressing and making noises is normal, it happens on US navy subs as the hull compresses. The issue is that navy subs will decompress while carbon fiber, but nott titanium, will not decompress, once you crush it, it stays that way.
I trusted a condom to last over several deep dives and I'm now the father of two
Branson is another idiot going to get people killed, in space or somewhere else. And all for social media clout or profit.
He said it best himself: “it’s pretty simple, but if we mess it up there’s not a lot of recovery”
So basically these guys took the structurally sound idea of a strong metal sphere (which is the standard for deep-diving submersibles) and said something to the effect of "Let's split it in half and place a long carbon-fiber cylinder between the two sphere halves so that we can fit more paying customers in this thing. We will glue the ends to hold the whole thing together".
...and they didn't think that was massively compromising the structural integrity of the vessel?!?!?
Cut costs wherever whenever
I'm not sure the "they" you speak of was really a they.
Because from where I'm sitting it looks more like this group of people operated more like a cult than a group of individuals with critical thinking skills.
yes...
i never understood this. why not just make a bigger sphere??
@@arieblock2337do you see any sphere sardine can ? 😂😂
I can't get away from the feeling how childish this company crew was, everyone was having fun all the time, smiling , not realizing it's a deadly business that has to be taken seriously, they were all reckless, that's a danger when you only surround your self with people that only agree with you
They fired the employee who had the experience in marine engineering and who tried multiple times to warn them. They settled an unfair dismissal lawsuit out of court, which contained numerous details of the design flaws. The ex-employee is a 50 year old white guy.
@@andymanaus1077 Yep, they didnt wanna rely on a White guy.....
If that isnt racist, then i dont know wtf is. Anti-White hatred and greed ended their lives. Good riddance.
Diversity is our strength. Bet they all had to take a class on it.
😮they fired engineer that refused to approve their design due to safety concern. No safety standard ever approved.
@@samwisethebrave288diversity how? Everyone in this video seems to be a white man. Maybe there's some age diversity - some look older than others.
The fact none of these people stopped for a minute to think about what they were doing is astonishing, how many "engineers" are in there, how did none of them ever think that two dissimilar materials being glued together could just crumble under the massive pressures at 4000 feet
$$$
2 did. they got fired and sued by OceanGate for the trouble
I think some just went along for a job, to not get the heat, for perks.
Well, if you look at the CEO's attitude, he did not want to hire "old White men" with decades of engineering experience and high education but instead wanted a diverse younger inexperienced group to work on that coffin. Well done. SUE that company!!!
It’s not 4000ft. It was rated to 4000 meters, which is about 13,120ft. Titanic is at 12,500ft deep. News keeps using meters, I don’t think most realize how deep it actually is.
Absolutely insane, it's literally held together by glue. Caps being bolted to the titanium rings gives the illusion of safety because the titanium rings are glued to the hull, then the caps are
bolted to them. Even the shape of the whole thing is questionable. Anything that is meant to go that deep in the ocean needs to be designed in such a way that the outside forces are
spread evenly, hence why the other vessels are spheres and made of one material. What's interesting is that they actually remade the hull because the previous one was failing and
this time added sensors as a "safety' feature but by the time those sensors register anything it's too late because even just a tiny crack or leak would lead to an instant implosion.
Not glue, plastic. 😂
The Aluminaut was cylindrindrical, much bigger and could dive almost as deep.
Apparently the aluminium submersible could dive even deeper than the Titanic but the main point is that these submersibles are made of one material. Mixing
materials that have different properties and behave differently when exposed to changes in temperature / pressure is bound to have problems when exposed
to those type of environments, especially at the parts where they are connected together. In this case the vessel was held together with glue which is insane.
The RTM sensor sent them a warning signal 19 minutes before the catastrophic implosion. At that point, there is really no going back.
As a materials scientist I really wonder what the hell they were thinking building a pressure vessel that uses a material that’s great in tension but lousy in compression.
I doubt that ANYONE in the company knew that.
@@johannesswillery7855 EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT !!!, you can escape a room by hanging sheets from the balcony, try using sheets to push a car. carbon fiber is textile with glue, a kid knows you can't push with it
this is the only good explanation, it's not the joystick, or the glue, it's not even the wrong layering of the fibers, or it's orientation, or quality assurance, it's just fundamentally wrong because carbon fiber bends, it's fantastic for resisting tension, i think twice as good as steel for the same weight ? but when under pressure, it's the epoxy glue that does everything, and as it is brittle it will never last, there is just one other fundamental flaw, the shape, a tube does not disperse forces like a sphere does, all that to be able to have one more passenger !
@@nitraM321 Yep, that's the sad part.
It's all about tension and compression.
Think of the old days. You want to make a lashing between the lower mast and the top mast of a boat. A piece of hemp rope would work wonderfully because it can handle tension. You wouldn't hack out pieces of sand stone for that application.
Now you want to build a vault in a cathedral. Sand stone can handle the compession and is what has been used traditionally. A hemp rope can't hold up a vault.
That is the Titan in a nut shell.
Now change from hemp to carbon fibre.
Those carbon fibres did nothing to the integrity of the vessel. The epoxi matrix had to take all the compression stress. Mysteriously it worked a few times. But it was doomed to fail eventually. The epoxi would squish out to the sides under compression. That is delaminate.
Arnie Weissman, a fellow who almost took a dive on the Titan and knew several of the people who just perished, wrote an article in Travel Weekly on June 21 in which he wrote that "He [Stockton Rush] said he had gotten the carbon fiber used to make the Titan at a big discount from Boeing because it was past its shelf-life for use in airplanes." Madness.
boeing states they have no record of a sale of CF to rush or Oceangate
@@andrewkaminskas7721 I don't want to sound like a conspiracy-theorist type but Rush had to get his carbon fiber from somewhere and it certainly wouldn't be a good PR look for Boeing to admit that they sold Rush "expired" carbon fiber if they had any idea at all what he was going to do with it.
that would have no impact on this application. even new it was not appropriate for compression pressure vessel.
More likely he sourced it from china, but he’d never say that
Expired CF is fine for car hoods and stuff like that , you're a fool if you use expired anything on a plane or sub
A masterclass on how not to build deep water submersibles.
Titanic Submersible. Darwin Award Winners 2023!
@@jamesburns2232 Too bad it wasn't just "I know which corners to cut when it comes to safety" and the Engineer who backed him up on that in the submersible when the inevitable finally happened....
How exactly do you know that?
@@dont6441 Catastrophic Failure perhaps?
Imagine having access to billions of dollars and choosing this piece of 💩 for a trip?
It's almost as bad as choosing to fly with Spirit when you have United available 😂
It`s a miracle it didn`t implode on the first dive. Unbelievable.
Apparently they lowered it down to the ocean floor unmanned 20 times before attempting first manned dive. It would have been a blessing if it imploded during those test dives.. Unfortunatelly it imploded on ~25th dive.
@@peki100 And that was their mistake. In those 20 unmanned dives the carbon fiber hull got "tired". It delaminated over time and eventually failed. What is unbelievable to me is the fact that they didn't know or didn't want to know that it could fail over time. Oceangate is a shady company, they disregarded any safety concerns. If Stockton Rush died in his sub i woulnd't care less, becase he chose to take the risk, his passengers were warned but they did not fully understand the technical flaws this sub had. The families of the victims should sue oceangate into oblivion. Those waivers the passengers signed will not last a day in court.
@@peki100such luck
It survived on pure brute force on the first dives, no doubt.
ahahahaha
It would be interesting to build a copy of the original vessel and do another dive filming the whole thing implode. Just to get an idea of what happened
It would be a waste of time and money. Due to fatigue and the lack of a sufficient safety factor of at least 50%, the structure has cracked.
Difficult to find a crew for it though.
Good idea, could be deployed/recovered off a winch for a few cycles until it popped. No pilot necessary.
Pointless, since they won't be building them like this in th future, nor will it bring anyone back
@@lewisner I know some people I'd nominate
As someone that understands how carbon fiber works and what its structural components require, the fact that they spun the carbon fiber in the same direction and they didn't vary it by 90° so that the weave patterns were overlapping at different angles to create the intense rigidity required to create a rigid tube. The method displayed would have been incredibly strong to two directions of pressure but far-far weeker to the third and fourth directions. When they make the carbon fiber shells for super cars they specifically overlay the carbon indifferent 90-degree directions to create the rigidity.
Yep. We called it the warp clock. This guy was little more than a rich con man.
Didn't it also look, at 00:34 e g, like it was riddled with air bubbles?
How could they NOT know to weave it like a SCUBA tank ? Seems crazy, or lazy, or both ?
@@michaelb.42112 I read where the CEO fired anyone who questioned the build process or quality. What's crazy to me is i look at this and say no freaking way would i be locked in that even if they paid me. But some very rich people never gave it a second thought. The owner was a B.S. artist who came from money and never worked at a real job.
THE ONLY THING I HAVE EVER USED OR KNOW ABOUT CARBON IS ARROWS FOR MY BOW, THEY TALK ABOUT CROSS WEAVE TO KEEP THEM STRONG, MAKES SENSE WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING, SAD DAY TO LOSE ALL THOSE PEOPLE, ....
-Compression vs tension
-Layers vs weaving
-Metal vs carbon compression rates
-Non-sterile workshop
-No testing for air bubbles between carbon layers
-Use of non-fire proofed electronics inside
-no internal passenger harnesses inside in case of heavy surface seas
-white colour is hard to spot from air
-loose exterior cables and open landing gear is entanglement risk
-complacency about regular comms failures
-exposed thrusters easy to break off
-no backup thrusters on any axis
-internal led shop lighting is fire risk
-no hull integrity testing prior to each dive
Rumours:
-viewing portal only rated to 1/3 actual depth?
-no pre dive control checks?
-no underwater sonar emergency beacon?
From an engineering perspective I suggest that the viewing portal was capable of those depths, as it hadn’t failed on previous trips. This leads me to believe that the manufacturer had that port certified for a particular depth but was using a 50% or greater redundancy factor. Having it re-certified for a greater depth was probably redundant as it was already proven hence Stockton’s refusal to spend a big chunk of money proving something he already knew. As it turns out I think we know that the pressure hull failed, not the port.
@@johnfisher7143 Excellent point, and one I didn't even consider.
mbbb9244, by any chance, are you a white guy who is 50 years old or older?
@@johnfisher7143 The pressure chamber was also‘proven’ at those depths…
There was also footage of the sub using hessian sandbags for ballast. Not nearly robust enough for a long ocean dive & with a risk of uncontrolled & uneven loss of ballast.
I had a career in a Formula 1 team as a composite Laminator, and can tell you that every component we manufactured for the car had a shelf life. Each part was stringently checked, however that piece would be retired after a certain amount of laps/time however capable it looked !! NDT is useful but as soon as you start gluing things together you then expose potential breaking areas.
And racecars are never under 6,000 psi of pressure at the bottom of the ocean.
@@bradleywalker8642 its not about whether race cars go to the bottom of the ocean (which they don't). Its understanding that when carbon fibre is under loads repeatedly, then the material should be inspected and indeed retired after a given period. That is my point.
@@bradleywalker8642That's not the point.
That's not the point Bradley Walker. Go to your room and study up on reading comprehension. You're grounded for today. No dinner. @@bradleywalker8642
They used super high tensile material intended for an internal load and attempted to use it for a compressive external load while being bonded to dissimilar materials by adhesive bonding. This home-baked mess was certain to fail. It was only a matter of how many load cycles it would take to fail.
You could not be more correct sir… what a shame. This disaster should have never occurred. 2 dissimilar materials and no certs.
Maybe the material should be describe as carbon fiber thread reinforced epoxy.
@@JoeLinux2000 Exactly. What is amazing is how many people commenting fail to grasp that THAT decision, and that decision ALONE exposes the almost insane level of engineering ignorance and stupidity responsible for the tragedy. The carbon fiber would provide no compressive strength at all and most likely WEAKEN what was in effect just a brittle cast epoxy resin hull exposed to enormous deformation stresses.
I note everyone is wise after the event!
@@fredericonerkis3804 What rubbish. That fool bears responsibility for the disaster which was fortold by many in that community after numerous attempts both formal and informal, to wisen him up.
Carbon is great for a pressure vessel, as long as the pressure is inside the vessel not the other way around.
Yeah thats why its good for aircraft. The more outward pressure the tighter the bond. But conversely the more "inward" pressure the fibers begin to delaminate.
This is basic physics and construction science. Did no one tell this guy? Or would he simply not talk to any 50 year old White guys with an actual education and experience? When I first read about this I wondered if it was a suicide/murder.
The strength of a carbon fiber composite comes from putting the fibers in tension. Consider a rope is strong in tension. But push the rope from each end and how is the rope resisting the compressive force? It’s not. This is why carbon fiber is good for a pressure vessel and not a vacuum vessel. How can an engineer like the CEO not know this?
@@DeanStephenpeople very specifically DID tell them. And he got offended and replied back to them saying they’re just afraid of innovation. There’s an email chain about this and it really shows that he was full of himself and wanted to do what he thought was pushing the envelope, safety be damned.
@@DeanStephenbro he started using that '50 year old white guys' line to trigger guys like you into ignoring that he hired plenty of 50 year old white guys at first, he just fired them all when they questioned him. amazing that his crazy lie is working on ppl like you, _post-mortem._
This guy took "anything can be a submarine, once" to heart.
he was not wrong, he just built one that will be at the bottom of the ocean forever.
I'm pretty sure you probably need to be in a dust-free environment when your bonding and using epoxy for stuff for it to be done correctly. Also for that to even have an attempt to work they would have had to crisscross the patterns which is a little more expensive than just wrapping it like leftover food.
It looks like they're wrapping the tube with electrical tape and no overlap.
I should think it should have been wrapped with multiple strips of carbon fiber simultaneously and at a bias between layers so that each layer crosses the layers above & below it at a 60degree included angle. The end rings should have been embedded in the tube like 11in @ 30degree taper for a 7in wall thickness tube. The end ring taper could have had grooves cut into it to "key" it into the c-f. Humidity is a big deal. It has to have really low humidity when gluing the end rings.
They should have tested it multiple times to desired depth. Then spark-tested it with an electrical wand after each submergence cycle. Keep doing that until it fails by implosion. Then, at least you have some data and an inkling of what it will do before it transports humans. Most devices have a built-in safety factor of 150%.
With the amount of corners cut I'm surprised they didn't just use Flex Seal.
Flex seal actually has good composite cycling properties. Jk
Yep, get the same idiot who rides in the boat to do the commercial.....we wrapped this sub with flex seal and took to the titanic ..
If they had, all would be well cause Flex Seal keeps the water where it should be - out !
Flex Seal would probably have hilariously and ironically worked. The carbon fibre and titanium would have failed... But they'd have made it back to the surface, thanks to thick layers of flex seal and flex tape holding it together anyway.
May have actually been safer due to perhaps not getting to lethal depth.
According to James Cameron it was badly designed and wasn't built to withhold the pressure of diving that deep. He warned this guy that the design they came up with was not safe and they should not use it. Rush chose to ignore the warning and every other warning experts gave him.
No he did not warn ocean gate. He warned a guy years ago who was trying to build one like it about it. If that was the same engineer is unkown.
Cameron explicitly stated that he did not know of the details of Titan, as he was busy with Avatar 2. He said he assumed it was designed by capable engineers and certified. He later heard about the warnings other made, and did not add his voice to those warnings. He knew it was doomed to fail at some point.
As soon as you mention glue, there's a problem. You need one continuous casting at those depths. This thing was inadvertently set up to last just long enough - 13 previous dives - to get 5 people to trust it again. But the brittle carbon fibre was a ticking time bomb. It lasted just long enough to get them deep enough to a pressure where it instantly ended their lives. 😟
Yeah that scared the hell out of me seeing that!
I don't think the hull that failed was the same one that did the previous dives...it failed testing and had to be replaced. Found this: During 2020 and 2021, the Titan’s hull was either repaired or rebuilt by two Washington state companies, Electroimpact and Janicki Industries, that largely work in aerospace
So the previous dives did damage it as expected.
And after seeing the minimal purchase the titanium ring glue joint had on the CF....it's just unbelievable that anyone calling themselves an 'engineer' would do such a thing.
@@recoilrob324 I know I'm not an engineer but I'm sure the glue joint is where the failure occurred, it seems bizarre that anyone would think that was safe. Glue performs ok when not put under stress or the elements but used like this with minimal purchase between the CF and titanium and exposed to salt water and numerous compression cycles then I don't think its acceptable for construction of subs.
Ya - 'bond breaks', in the composite CF structure are CUMULATIVE ... right? Break enough over time and - ???
Any air trapped between the filament laminations or glue joint would compress and expand wildy causing further delamination.
Let’s be honest the engineer who designed this was pretty smart. This should not have worked and surprisingly it did like 12-14 times. The negligence however is unimaginable; It was like they decided to stress test a experimental machine with live occupants.
Blows me away…
That's an endorsement of the material, not the engineer. There's absolutely nothing smart about this engineering.
Nothin smart about the design tho, true engineers know that, this sub was horrifically built, and the sub only dove 5 times
If they has some knowledge abt engineering, they would think to atleast reinforce the middle of CF hull with 2 more extra titanium ring acting as hull transversal web. This is not smart engineering but insanity. Even a first year Naval architect student can tell that this design has weak point in the middle of the CF tube.
@@andanandan6061 I've been calling this one of the greatest accidental validations of CF, in history - did you see how they made it? _"THE TAPE WASN'T EVEN WOVEN! It was laid in a continuous, simple loop, just round and round the diameter, up and down the tube, and back again!! 5 inches worth!....*_
Poorly specified material, for a poorly conceived design, that was improperly manufactured to a low standard, using raw material of questionable quality, in poor, totally uncontrolled, conditions: the result, totally unverified, abused in practice and completely unmaintained.....
That tub was such a misadventure that it should have gone on its first dive - and never been seen again!.. It's amazing that it came back, and the fact that it actually achieved that cycle more than once, is astonishing.
The thing should never have worked, but CF actually managed to save these lunatics, despite all their determined efforts to embrace Death, until even CF could fight it anymore....
It's an incredible validation of that material.
Essentially what they built was a disposable sub, pretty risky but fine by all measures as long as you know what the lifespan of the sub is. The real problem is apparently they didn't know it was disposable.
It just goes to show you how experienced these guy were in building the sub in a warehouse with all the dust and other contaminates floating around
And everybody just wearing their street clothes.
Sir Richard Branson built a submersible that had an outer casing made of carbon fibre composites. His goal was to have the submersible dive to the bottoms of the 5 oceans and to, eventually, take paying guests. High pressure tests showed that the submersible was good for ONLY 1 dive. He shelved the venture.
I heard he bought it off somebody who had already done 1 dive then found out.
@@TheFrenchPug Yes, the person who originally ordered the submersible died just before it was finished. It ended up sitting at the manufacturer for 3 years, before a company (sponsored by Virgin Oceanic) purchased the submersible from the original owner's estate. The builder finished the sub and deep pressure tests were finally done. The manufacturer found out that Virgin Oceanic planned on making 5 dives and warned them that it was only built for 1 dive, which the deep pressure tests proved to be the case.
@mrkman62 That's a great story. Only 1 dive though. Wow.
The only carbon fibre sub to go to that depth. He was spot on with that.
There was a single use fibre one before from what I understand.
I remember seeing an interview where he said he'll be remembered for the rules he broke....
He set a world record for eternity.
@@tetrazole567 Using carbon fiber to construct a submarine can offer several advantages, such as increased strength-to-weight ratio, improved corrosion resistance, and enhanced maneuverability. However, there are some considerations to keep in mind.
Firstly, carbon fiber composites can be susceptible to damage from impact or excessive pressure. Therefore, it is crucial to carefully evaluate the design and ensure that it can withstand the expected conditions and forces underwater. Extensive testing and analysis should be conducted to validate the structural integrity and safety of the submarine.
Additionally, carbon fiber composites require proper manufacturing techniques and quality control measures to ensure their reliability. The process of winding carbon fiber can be complex, and any flaws or improper winding can weaken the structure and compromise its safety. Stringent manufacturing standards and inspections should be implemented to mitigate these risks.
Furthermore, long-term durability and maintenance should be considered. Carbon fiber composites may be prone to degradation over time, especially when exposed to harsh underwater environments. Regular inspections and maintenance protocols are necessary to identify and address any signs of damage or deterioration.
In summary, while carbon fiber offers benefits for submarine construction, it's essential to conduct thorough testing, adhere to proper manufacturing techniques, and establish appropriate maintenance procedures to ensure the safety and reliability of the submarine. Here however all these failed to be adhered to. No classification, shody worksmanship etc.
Imagine knowing there is material stronger than carbon fiber you can use but you proceed to use carbon fiber anyway.
Submersibles aren’t made of the strongest materials available. Trieste went to 10,000 m depth of normal steel construction, like 5 inch thick. Obviously it depends on the size of the vessel, but the point is, you don’t need tungsten or some crazy alloys to make it happen, just a proper design. It’s not the strength of the carbon fiber that was ever the issue here, either. It’s just a problematic choice for that application.
Carbon fiber can be stronger than steal... That's not the problem, the craft was poorly designed, and after numerous uses they never fixed the lamination on the carbon fiber. Which they probably never knew they had too because they never did any ultra sounds....
@@ThatOneGuyWhoLostHisHandle Carbon fiber can only be as strong as steel in TENSION, but is always weak in COMPRESSION, for the same reason that you can pull a rope but you can't push a rope.
@@bradleywalker8642 Yes i keep repeating that also myself, and you don't even need equations to get the intuition of the problem but...
@@bradleywalker8642 You can push a rope! Just cover it in carbon fiber first!
It's very disturbing listening to other reports about the cracking sounds durring other dives, this was glass and glue breaking each time and they failed to understand that. Having owned a few fiberglass hulled boats a cracking sound indicated a break in the hull.
they prolly thought its "normal" bc it occurs in steel subs too, but the big difference is they get back to their proper state when pressure gets lower, while the cracks in the carbon or epoxy keep being cracks and never get good again
Dont think it wad glasd and glue but carbon fiber getting delaminated by what other ppl are saying carbon fiber isnt a good material for this stuff and it wore out it was only a matter of time before it failed all the passangers gambled their lives by signing up for the trip but CEO singed his own detah sentance cuz he went on every trip and sub imploding was inevitable
it was carbon fiber delaminating. but yeah, could be the glue too, since different materials would behave differently under pressure, and also temperature.
When you watch fiber wound tanks for 10,000 psi SCBA set ups you notice that the fiber is wound not only circumferentially but diagonally and longitudinally and the metallic valve ports are integrated in the weaving not just glued in afterwards.
Yes that struck me as odd, it's all just longitudinal... at that point it's mostly the epoxy giving it compression or sheer strength.
Yeah the structure as built would handle the hoop stresses well, but it looks like the column stresses from the endcaps would be taken entirely by the resin matrix. Which makes me wonder how it survived as long as it did!
@@nerd1000ify I'm just getting into fiberglass and I couldn't list the amount of times, I've been wildly impressed by epoxy.
It is a terrible design but nothing was screwed into or penetrated the carbon fiber tube. There's been some people insisting that the monitor mounts were screwed into the CF tube, even after they've been showing images showing how there's an interior liner with wires, lights etc between it and the inside of the CF tube, and the monitor mounts have to be attached to the liner. All of the connections between things inside and outside went through the aft titanium dome. Everything on the exterior was attached to the titanium domes or the end rings.
The only thing really structurally wrong with the design was the carbon fiber tube. A titanium tube of the right thickness could handle the pressure, so could aluminum. Between 1964 and 1970 Aluminaut made 251 dives, some as deep as Titanic, with a cylindrical aluminum hull 6.5" thick, and of an interior diameter large enough for crew to walk upright.
@greggv8 I read a bit about Aluminaut and found myself questioning why they didn't just copy her but with more modern fittings. A proven concept, much bigger (could take maybe a dozen tourists) and way more comfortable with standing room for the passengers. Plus aluminium is hardly an expensive material, and certainly much cheaper than titanium which they already used for the end caps.
This vessel's CF hull has now been officially pressure-tested. Interested in the NTSB's release of final ship-to-sub text messages and video footage of wreckage.
Gonna be the wildest NTSB report ever.
3 dives to 4000m max
I would be surprised if the NTSB will investigate this since it’s not a regular mode of transportation. They investigate ship accidents but an experimental submarine with five people on board sounds like something for the coast guard to handle.
@@GRosa250 They already are.
@@johno1544 They had done over a dozen successful dives to the Titanic....
One thing you learn very early in engineering school is how materials function in compression and tension. Using carbon fiber for a tank designed to take extreme external pressure doesn't make much sense, especially one designed for continuous expansion and contraction over time. Also, multiple different types materials all expanding/contracting at different rates is/was a recipe for disaster.
I’m not an expert on manufacturing but usually when you need exacting tolerances you don’t put it on by hand like that.
You dont have any clue what you're talking about.
I suspect that this is what went wrong, I know that Carbon Fibre is getting a rough time, but at 5 inches thick, if you know anything about how much force 10 millimetres of it can take in a racing car accident, you'd have to think that the tube was virtually indestructible and only where the joins are with the metal would be a possible failure point.
Applied by hand. In a shed. No temperature control. No dust control. No humidity control. No vaccum bagging.
The only surprise is that it actually lasted as long as it did.
Also should of been in a dust free environment..
My thought exactly, I would think they would have pressed in on with a hydraulic press, and the depth of the interface was too shallow, maybe 3-5 inches. I wonder if the even had tolerances.
*If a goal is to reach 4000m then a sub should be designed for 6000m, taking into consideration the fatigue of the materials being used - it's simple as it is. it is default Engineering basics I'd say!*
"But we tested to 4000 m and will now be taking passengers, sorry I mean mission specialists to 3840 m."
if you use the wrong materials, it will break even if you design it for greater pressures, at it deteriorates rapidly over time.
The cylinder specification was 4000m with 2.25 safety factor, rounded up to 5 inches.
@@sigkil Uhm 2.2 safety factor means it's good for below 8000 m. No submarine ever has a safety factor that big. Crush depth is typically 20-40% below test depth and Titan test depth was 4000 m. Crush depth only theoretical.
@@221b-l3t You can read it in an article called "Composite submersibles: Under pressure in deep, deep waters". I quote: "Spencer Composites’ president Brian Spencer signed a contract with OceanGate for the Cyclops 2 hull in early January 2017 and was presented with very basic - but challenging - performance parameters: Length, 2,540 mm; outside diameter, 1,676 mm; service pressure, 6,600 psi; pressure safety factor, 2.25. “They basically said, ‘This is the pressure we have to meet, this is the factor of safety, this is the basic envelope. Go design and build it,’” Spencer reports. And he was given six weeks in which to do it.
Not sure if this was ever done, but surely if you're determined to come up with a radical new design for going that far under water you'd make prototypes and send them down repeatedly unmanned or have some ither simulation, then inspect it microscopically each time before you would even think about putting people in?
It's taken for granted with any new creation which carries human beings, and something I deeply wondered as well. But I also haven't heard any reference to this with prototypes ever being done. Sad, and stupid move.
*Apparently* the CEO believed that *proper testing* and *third party independent certifications* were only things that "stymied innovation" and that (quoting by memory) "If you do not want to take risks, do not get out of your house to begin with".
They did build a prototype of 1/3 of the size for destructive testing. One of their engineers brought up saftey concerns afterwards and said more testing is necessary. They fired him and sued him for "NDA".
Sounds expensive.
not if your boss thinks he's a pioneer and everybody else is just too stupid to understand his genius.
1:32 “It’s pretty simple… but, if we mess it up, there’s not a lot of recovery.” How prophetic Mr. Rush!
Carbon filament winding is common for pressure vessels. But only for possitive pressure: inside higher than outside. Submersibles are exposed to negative pressure: Outside high, inside low. This causes buckling in the fibres, which in turn causes tensile stress on the epoxy matrix. Insane design choice!
And even for that purpose you need a woven structure to catch the forces along the pipe.
However, Carbon fiber cannot withstand pressure but only tension.
he was a brilliant idiot, wasn't he?
The CEO seemed like a money first, safety last kind of guy. People warned him, he didn’t listen. Didn’t even want to get his sub certified, maybe because he knew he cut corners and knew the design wasn’t up to standards. It’s unfortunate he took other people down with him.
Meh dont think he made it out of carbon cuz of money i think its just EGO he wanted to be an inventor and make a carbon sub even when everyone told him its a very bad idea still he did it anyways cuz he hoped more ppl would do it and he could brag about how he started it
@@olorin3815 yes that’s possible as well. People with large egos, they liked to be recognized.
True. He wants to make sub with carbon filter hull because that is the only way he can put more people in the sub. More people more money 😂😂😂
he was arrogant
look up the meaning of the word 'hubris'
that's him
@@tetrazole567 which companies refused to certify the Titan? From what I read the CEO never cared to have it certified.
I'm no Engineer, but I was in the composite business for 30 years. I have filament wound structure beams from Glass and Epoxy resin. Watching them wind the it looks like the carbon is kind of dry and not much angle on the bands. We used a combination of what we called Circ's, bands laying next to each other and Helix witch
Had a sharp angle running more end to end. Kind of like a basket weave length wise. The Circ's gave it crush strength and the Helix tied it all together and gave it strength end to end.
Ages ago I investigated the use of AO Smith composite tubes for uranium leaching operations. Very low stress compared to the oilfield applications I was accustomed to for tubulars. The Smith pipe had essentially zero collapse strength and we looked at how it might be enhanced.... it was impractical, like reinforcing a woven basket. The stuff is intended for tension loads.
So sad when engineers and others step outside their areas of expertise without consulting experts and understanding what they tell you.
This is like watching a guy nailing together his own coffin, haha. The Grim Reaper is comin', Stockton! Clock is ticking!
bonus reason this failed:
no effort was devoted to manufacturing this in a clean ( dust ), sterile or climate controlled ( humidity and temp ) environment.
.
that's in addition to requiring microscopic tolerances when you're smearing on epoxy by hand.
Curious that I didn't see any vent holes when the titanium rings were glued onto the carbon fiber tube. The adhesive is thick and will trap air when the ring is cropped onto the carbon fiber tube. If you don't give the air a way to get out, you end up with voids in your adhesive joint.
Exactly! That seal, for the exact reason you state, is why I suspect it was either the reason, or a contributing factor. If air was trapped under that ferrule, it would certainly be looking for a way out.
I would have thought they would want to hydraulically press the ring on and keep in under compression of a few/several tons while it cured. I'm also surprised that they didn't have 4 compression rods holding the front and rear rings together the length of the tube.
Exactly.
I'd at least put a big vacuum degassed bead in the middle and squeeze the excess out on both sides, to get an air free glue joint.
Smearing glue all over the place is best procedure to trap lots of air, in there.
Or do the whole glue procedure remotely in a vacuum chamber, so there is no air in there.
I may be mistaken but I don’t believe the glued joint between the dome end and the cylinder section is carbon fibre bonded to titanium. The glued joint is titanium to titanium. The carbon cylinder was constructed by winding the fibres onto a machined titanium tube which has a 5” flange at either end. The carbon is layered to a depth level with the flange face . It’s the machined faces of the metal base cylinder and the dome end that are being glued.
The fact that the carbon cylinder is wound onto the titanium base cylinder and expected to remain intact is baffling.
Titanium cannot be 'glued' or 'bonded' with any other material. The idea was to 'seal' it with an epoxy like resin. This whole construction would be ok for few hundred feet. Not 3000 meters.
As the Enterprise's chief engineer, Scotty famously said 'Ye canna' change the laws of physics, Captain!"
On a less flippant side, I make underwater cameras for manned and ROVs that have been as deep as the oceans go and in general the deep sea footage you see is from one of our cameras. The more I see of this "vessel" and the practices of Ocean Gate I'm stunned.
The warping of the Engineering is bad but the twisted deception practicing it's operation between cracks in the legal system is criminal. Even the co-founder after the tragedy was announced was still claiming the venture was a success.
Sheer lunacy.
Sometimes thicker doesn't automatically equal stronger. Years ago I saw a post from a company that made housings for deep submersion cameras. It showed two round windows. One was uniform thickness with a ring of bolt holes around the edge. It went down a few thousand feet with no problem. So they figured it could go deeper if they doubled the thickness, but to simplify things they took a piece of the plastic twice as thick and milled the edge down with a flange the same thickness as the first window. Before the housing reached the same depth the original window had, the pressure punched the 2x thicker window into a bowl shape, ripping out all the bolt holes around the edge. The edge step caused a stress concentration where the thinner uniform thickness window had the stress evenly distributed.
If they had made a new retaining ring and used longer bolts to accommodate a 2x thicker window without a stepped edge it would not have failed at a shallower depth. IIRC the person who wrote the forum post said that subsequent versions of the housing for deeper use were made with a full thickness, thicker window.
Star Trek ignored the laws of physics. If the transporter converted matter to energy it would vaporise the Enterprise.
arrogance killed them, not so much lunacy
That round metal piece, that was glued to the body of the sub - was recovered, in one piece. That tells me that glue joint has most-likely something to do with the malfunction of the sub. Tony Nissen, the head engineer who calls the glue a peanut butter glue, is probably in jail today, charged with deaths of four people.
Actually he isn't. He just testified at the US Coast Guard Hearing. I found it surprising that he told Stockton he would never get on the sub he was the lead engineer on. I guess he didn't have much faith in his composite glue job submersible.
@@Romulan2469 That should have been the biggest clue and not to enter the sub.
@@elmono3939 Agreed. I just think stuff like that should be fully disclosed to those paying to board the submersible. They were obviously duped by Stockton into thinking it was safe but when the lead engineer refuses to board it, that's a huge red flag right there. I would expect Nissen to face charges anyway, he was responsible for designing that thing.
@@elmono3939 The people who were "Mission Specialists" had no awareness of this trivia that came to light after the tragedy, but they certainly had an awareness of the waivers they signed which mentioned death 3 times on page 1. They knew the risks and ignored them.
I mean what engineer is stupid enough to glue together two dissimilar materials like that with different properties and just hope for the best? I am willing to bet that the glue was the failure, in fact, if you look at the recently released wreckage videos you can see that this was the case so you were correct in your hypothesis.
Thank you for posting this video. Everyone should be able to see the type of material and procedures that was being used to build the Titan submersible vehicle. I worked at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Bremerton, Washington for many years in the machine shop. US Navy submarine parts are very heavy duty and each part has a unique Subsafe number on it to show where the material came from so any failure can be traced even back to the steel mill where it originally was cast or forged. Extensive quality assurance testing and record keeping is performed on these parts after they are made and before the part is installed in any submarine. I was shocked when I saw the parts for the Titan submersible being glued together for final assembly. This company was building death traps for it's customers simply because the CEO thought he knew more about submarines than the professionals do.
To say nothing about NDT for initial weld quality and inspection of emerging cyclic issues.
This Rush fellow strikes me as someone who derived this project NOT from science and engineering but from the pages of Jules Verne’s 20 Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. I’m surprised he didn’t name this thing Nautilus. Life’s a self-cleaning oven; give reality the double barreled middle finger, you get dead.
Good point. In Aviation a guy making say an Aluminum hinge or whatever will, upon receiving his raw material, cut a section of it and send it out to a test lab to verify it is the material he specified. before he ever make a part. Once approved he can release the material from reveiving and use it. No chances are taken it's all about risk mitigation. It's expensive but flying is a very safe way to travel.
@@piglord3.05 This is precisely what gets to me about Stockton Rush: He was a credentialed aeronautical engineer. He should have been aware of the basics ensuring the safety of humans when inside his vessel.
Your explanation just about hits the nail on the head! If he was making a prototype for use in a film or his own swimming pool you could understand the reason behind this design?
He simply didn’t want to spend the money that is required to build a proper sub for those depths, that thing was probably 1/8 of what it should have cost.
Does anyone know what Titan it cost? The DSV limiting factor rated and certified for the challenge deep cost $37 I believe.
And he was boasting about it.
@@johno1544 would be interesting to know. I saw some "amateur guy" who built his own sub for 1000m, it looked like a porsche 911 compared to that titan soapbox in terms of professionalism
@@strammerdetlef I know right, any other DSV I've seen the inside of looks like the cockpit of Darth Vader's Tie fighter in comparison.
A thick wall steel pipe based submarine would have been much cheaper.
A couple observations. I too was surprised to see the titanium end bells glued to the carbon fiber tube, looked like a disaster waiting to happen. These dissimilar materials would deform at different rates as the external pressure changed, creating unwanted stress on the joint. There is no such thing as a perfectly rigid structure, and this sub was no exception. The 5" thick tube would deform measurably under the intense water pressure it was supposed to withstand. The titanium end bells would also deform, but probably not as much, owing partially to their spherical shape. The result would be a shear force on the glued joint between them. Not good. That being said, this is my second choice for why the sub failed.
Another idea that keeps coming up is that carbon fiber is good for pressure vessels when the pressure is on the inside. Makes sense. The reason is that carbon fiber is extremely strong in tension. When the pressure is on the inside of a vessel, it puts the carbon fiber in tension, asking it to do what it does best. When the pressure is on the outside, it tends to put the strands in compression, requiring the bonding resin to keep the strands from getting slack. I think that the cracking sounds associated with increased depth were a result of the resin / fiber bonds failing when the carbon fiber was slacking. This probably led to water intrusion and further de-lamination until catastrophic failure occurred. I would bet that they thought that the thickness would make up for a less than optimal design and they were wrong. I think this was the actual cause of the disaster
Agreed. The end bells were flanged to offer mechanical support to the CF sleeve. Structurally the highest stress/deformation should have been mid-cylinder, but their wrapping was so cavalier there's no way of knowing where the stresses ended up.
five inches thick doesn't seem like much to me at all for those sorts of pressures
@@bushmanphotosMy wife thinks 5 inches is enough.
Your first analyses was the right one or kind of both. That titanium ring clued to the carbon fiber body was the reason this submercible imploded.
Unvestigators also said that because the different pressures the water leaked between the clued parts and clue didnt keep anymore.
Based on recent testimony it sounds like you are exactly right.
The carbon fiber loom is anisotropic being cylindrically wound. This is a really troubling weakness in addition to all the other concerns. The other glaring issue I see is the guarantee of getting voids in the bonding material due to the way that bond was formed by mating two coated surfaces rather than compressing a bead to fill the gap. They will have manufactured this cylinder again if it's their first attempt (I think it is), because this cylinder suffered audible delamination cracks during a test dive in the Bahamas.
Now that is one fancy coffin.
Just imagine all these guys, who worked in building the doomed submarine, are feeling today - absolutely devastated to have followed the instructions of a CEO who never grew up from his childhood dream. May the lost souls who trusted him, rest in peace!
They should be arrested and do jail time
It looked like this was just a general manufacturing plant that said, "yeah, we'll put that together for ya!"
I’m no engineer, but if I were going to go down in this glorified beer can and saw the manufacturing process before hand I would have backed out double quick! something just doesn’t seem right about gluing any part of the pressure vessel together, especially with wall putty scrapers.. WTF were they thinking?
@rebelphoto I wonder if we would have thought the same way if we saw it before the accident. We are very biased now.
I have worked in composites all my life. This is what I figured, I know from experience when carbon fiber fails it gives little warning. Also one microscopic bubble at altittude or depth will cause major problems.
WOW, we did things in a heavy equipment repair shop that looked more precise than that. Poor souls, RIP.🙏😟
"I'm not a submarine engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night." - OceanGate CEO probably.
So "it has to be small, but not too small". This guy sounds like a technical genius.
Exactly but to the untrained?
@@lesleywild8706
Untrained ? He evaporated along with 4 innocent people. How trained was he?
It was a DEATH TRAP. The entire design was filled with fatal flaws. The CEO ignored historical incidents which could have provided valuable lessons to improve this design. Instead he took the easy, lazy way to put a product on the market.
This design was at the limit of his engineering abilities and his ego prevented him for taking advice from others.
@@shoersa honestly even a teenager could have designed it better
I hope at bare minimum the Oceangate tragedy, opens up the eyes of many people, who are involved in any kind of exploration/engineering and set their ego aside.
I worked in composites for a few years... as soon as I heard the main cylinder was made of CF, I stopped wondering. It's used in pressure vessels a lot but obviously at much lower pressures, and under tension not compression. This thing would have been stronger holding pressure inside, not withstanding it from the exterior. Regardless, with these types of pressures you don't want to be relying on CF or resin.
I was head of QC and testing (both non-destructive and destructive) so have seen very strong vessels fail. Hydrostatically, of course. I'd never set foot near a pressure vessel being tested with a gas. Nor would I get inside a CF sub under these types of stresses. I'd happily go down a few hundred feet in it though.
Another problem among many: If there was any air gap left under the cap, it would allow a sudden small collapse at extreme pressure during the dive, hitting like a hell of a hammer.
Good point
theres plenty of air left within the carbon hull anyway if u look closely lol
I would think that that straight wound CF tube has very low shear strength parallel to the fibers but you would get major shear forces when the tube is compressed relative to the Titanium ring...
My thoughts exactly. I think the most likely failure mechanisms are the carbon fibre failed in shear at the connection interface or the epoxy holding the two materials together did.
Based on testimony this week it seems like you are exactly right... the interior lip of the titanium ring was totally sheared off all the way around.
Even the CEO himself looked concerned during the build process.
I didn't see any concern at all on his face apart from the "how much of the cost of this is going to set me back..." look. He was greedy and only cared about how much money he could make in his cheap as chips death trap sub.
Stockton Rush boasted of his abiity to "think outside the box," but he was trapped inside a box he couldn't escape from: his own ego.
ABSOLUTELY.... MEGA EGO and arrogance.........
Crushed by his ego
He lived Woke and DIED Woke. [APPLAUSE]
Let's hope his mistake serves as a dire warning to the rest who have merely sacrificed their sanity to the gods of the Woke faith.
Well, he ended up pretty well distributed outside the box in the end.
@@hilaryinthewoods
can't aim right with a big chip on your shoulder ;>)
He ignored all the cracking sounds WTF? That carbon fiber gave him countless audible warnings. I wonder how he convinced his customers to not worry about that ?
He said to one "it has to get thru 5 more inches yet"
It's so obvious to me; the water found a way around that bead of glue. How they can't see it as a likely point of failure, will forever remain a mystery to me.
It was an explosive collapse of the CF cylinder, likely starting at the ends or in the middle - those are the places where the highest stresses were.
My exact thoughts. Also appears likely air was entrained within that seal.
@@justinbelt8032 if i was the engineer, I'd be like "what about 5000 PSI do you not understand!?!?"
Notice that carbon fiber is laid in circles, that means the pressure from the titanium half domes is mostly supported by epoxy. Even on a carbon fiber bike frame, they have to go different directions.
An adhesively bonded aerospace structure is done in a clean room (this looks more like a foundry) after first surface prepping the materials: grit blast, acid etch, etc.
The carbon fiber is strong enough. It’s the bonding process they f. This is no different then using JB weld on a radiator.
Carbon fibre is extremely strong in tensile strength. . . Like a string that is very very hard to stretch and break.
IDEAL for making pressure vessels . . . . THAT IS pressure vessels for CONTAINING pressure, not for *RESISTING EXTERNAL PRESSURE!* .
We have had pressure vessels made from carbon fibre for decades. . SCUBA tanks etc. They are perfect for that.
Imagine a SCUBA tank with very high pressure inside. The pressure is pushing outwards, trying to stretch and snap all those fibres, but they are tremendously strong and resist that force. . . .
The internal pressure is not trying to bend the strings, but to strech them. . . the vessel maintains it's shape and resists the force trying to make it balloon out.
Now imagine those strings in a cylinder that is being *_pushed from the outside_* . . . The strings CAN and WILL BEND . . They don't have any super-strength to resist bending, only strength to resist stretching.
All it takes is for one tiny part to start to bend inwards and then it all fails rapidy. . .
No... fiberglass is only really used in atmospheric ( < 1 psig) rated sump tanks.
no engineer worth a damn uses this crap for any process equipment or high pressure vessel.
Engineer here, albeit a complete layman in terms of submersibles, but I'll just say this. Nobody knows what the mode of failure is, could have been the hatch, we just don't know yet. This construction probably was an ok concept for lower pressures, though when you start to get to silly pressures like 400Bar then things change exponentially. This company had a cavalier regard for safety because they knew they were dealing with these compressive loads. Tragedies such as BOAC flight 911 can't happen with a modern airliner, because although non uniform materials such as composites are used, we now have FEA simulations which mean we can make things cheaper, more lightweight and with ten times the strength than we could back in the 1960s and that is why kit designed within the last 20 years shouldn't catastrophically fail due to design. We wait and see what happens, it will be interesting to learn the facts.
Remember American Airlines 587?
What we do know is that the hull is in many many pieces.
And aerospace companies don't just depend on the simulations. They perform extensive physical testing on production prototypes - testing them until they fail so they know they understand the limits.
As an engineer you SHOULD KNOW that carbon fibre is for TENSION not compression.
@@OffGridInvestor Works better in tension. Is prone to delamination under compression, that is clear.
Had some experience with carbon fiber in Formula 3 chassis ( Dallara).......its amazing stuff, however, its a known that it can de-laminate when exposed to repeated stress. Unlike steel which bends or deforms, carbon fiber fractures, or shatters.
Every time they took it down they could hear the fiber tearing. Previously a carbon fiber vessel taken to depth was specifically "one time use" for this very reason. Every dive the vessel was weaker than the previous dive. This was a disaster caused be gross negligence that Stockton and OceanGate were fully aware of.
Crush depth = test depth of you try often enough
I can't imagine any businesses hiring engineers who worked at Ocean Gate.
You know ONLY THE CEO was am AERONAUTICAL engineer right? The one other engineer had submarine experience but he fired him AND SUED for defamation when he said it was a death trap design. Everyone else wasn't a qualified engineer
Getting fired from Ocean Gate is a great thing to have on your resume though.
.... fries ?
" It's pretty simple but if we mess it up, there's not a lot of recovering" you're not wrong there. I just can't get my head round what happened to them poor guys and the pain their poor families are going to have to live with. Someone's dad, son, grandad, brother turned into soup. It's like something off a horror movie.
How preventable it was is extra tragic to me. Say it had been certified and it had been tested and suffered sone sort of accident or an unforseen, previously unknown mode of failure then... at least everything humanly possible to prevent it would have been done. Sometimes you draw the short straw. That's life. Byt to die in a completely preventable way due to the hubris of a man with big dreams. That just sucks. I feel especially sorry for Mrs Daewood. She gave her spot to her son because he seemee excited to go. I can't possible begin to imagine the amount of regret and pain that leaves you with.
Looking at that fibre winding machine it doesn’t look like there was much ability to wind the fibre in the axial load direction - with those large end plates the axial load will be very high and it won’t surprise me if the failure mode relates to this.
Retired aerospace composites engineer here. I recall reading about the fabrication of this cylinder in a an industry trade magazine (Composites World??) a few years ago. Much more detail than in this video. This layup also included some plies of plain weave fabric for longitudinal support, but was primarily would tape as shown in the video. Presumably there should have been intermediate vacuum bagging steps to consolidate as layup progressed. Article only stated that the final layup of about 500 plies was vacuum bagged at one atmosphere for final low temperature cure and claimed maximum cured porosity of 1%. Titanium end fittings then bonded on with some low temperature curing epoxy. Seems dodgy in hindsight, but have not seen any details on the overall engineering rationale for the manufacturing process.
Shouldn't have this process been performed in a clean/temperature controlled environment?
It seems that there were too many opportunities for improper bonding and foreign object introduction into the CF winding.
@@BELCAN57all this survival safety stuff really takes valuable time away from the bipolar manic high.
Ah, makes sense that there is some axial fiber, he must have been hiding that, trade secret and all. I've always seen these wound with something that looks like a shuttle in a loom, moving back and forth so every layer is woven to right angles.
That sounds great. You're fired! 🤡 /sarc.
Ain’t no way they expected a 1.5” lip on that titanium ring to withstand 6,000 psi of force.
Ohhhhhhh YES they did.
And that lip was about a 1/4 inch thick. To resist millions of pounds of force. How did this thing even work once?
Turns out, that lip sheared completely off and was the likely point of failure.
_"It's pretty simple, but if we mess it up, there's not a lot of recovery"_ - Stockton Rush. Prophetic words, tragically.
I'd trust the guy who makes parachutes from old t-shirts more than I'd trust the geniuses who built that submersible coffin
Maybe the guy that made Mad Mike Hugh's rocket helped with the plans
I think if he hired the myth busters guys, this wouldn't have happened
Sad that 4 other people had to perish bcuz of the CEO’s fatal errors.
Each of the people who got into that sub made their own fatal error.
Aww yea boo hook! Rich people made a bad decision and died.... knowing the dangers. Along with the guy who designed it... still had a more Interesting life than you ever had
The man went down each time with it? He didnt just sit back, collect checks and sip tea. He was killed along with the others. And with all the demonization of this guy, I'm starting to think it was more like a sabotage. Next comes regulations as to keep private sector from being able to explore yet again. Gee might find or see something we shouldn't see! Might even find a way out of here! Good lord cant have people doing that lol
@@QuartzMatrixed becoming a pancake is quite interesting.
@@QuartzMatrixed - And much more interesting than your life too!!!
And the results were smashing . . .
If the search looks closer in the debris field, they might even come across some duct tape, baling wire and a crushed container of water proof glue!
I can see EXACTLY where the failure occurred! It was only a face bond between the carbon fiber cylinder and the titanium receiver rings for the 1/2 sphere caps. Just the carbon alone wasn't strong enough since it's less than 1/2 as strong on compression as in tension, but there was no overlapping of the surfaces, only an edge bond. SERIOUS flaw and most likely the failure point. Once the main structure is recovered we'll see.
no the titanium had a cavity that went around the outside and inside of the carbon . looks like maybe 1 1/2 - 2 inches deep. i would have made the inside of that flange much thicker and much deeper . then again i wouldn't have used carbon fiber in the first place or at least have an inner liner of steel.
You're right, he needed at least a 12 inch titanium slot for the carbon fiber to fit in, to give him more gluing surface to better hold the joint together. That epoxy resin, or what we buy in the stores called JB weld, has a tensile strength of 5020 psi, but the titanic depth has a pressure of 6000 psi. I think the whole idea of joining titanium with carbon fiber was ridiculous, but what he should have done was had a 12 inch or more slotted flange and glued it to the carbon fiber cylinder, then wrapped more carbon fiber around the 12 inch flange and the cylinder so that it would be embedded in the carbon fiber. It would have still been sketchy, but would have been a stronger joint. Like you said, this was most likely the fail point. He was going from warm surface temps which would expand the titanium, and then diving down to freezing temps and contracting it, which probably busted that glue joint and led to its demise. He might have damaged that joint on the last trip and didn't know it, and on his way down it sprung a leak and exploded the thing to smithereens.
@hillbillybeerdranker6678 since carbon fiber is weak in compression it should have been made entirely out of titanium!
@@GrantOakes I totally agree. for some reason he was monkeying around with that carbon fiber. Maybe trying to save money since titanium is more expensive?
@@hillbillybeerdranker6678 probably
Laid a new roof section on my RV with fiberglass. Laid the cloth layers down in different orientations. Even I know that's what makes it stronger.
Oh yeah, that will hold up in a tornado for sure Mr. Dirt
@@thechampagneroom1 It's on wheels. I drive it AWAY from tornados. Alternating fiberglass layers is known by anyone NOT an ignoramus.
@@Bohonk212
i would assume this fact would even be known by anyone who ever thought a bit about why plywood looks the way it does.
@@Exgrmbl Indeed.
Never was the phase "You can't push a rope up a hill" more appropriate. None of Stockton Rush's subordinates were going to convince him fibre has little strength in compression
I just used that rope expression in my comment.
I omitted the "up the hill" part, as that only applies to the marshmallow with the sharp stick on a warm day metaphor.
@@77thTrombone That expression of coarse comes from people saying you can't improve a company from the bottom, when someone at the top resist change. But after about a week of discussion with others on the shortcomings of fibre in compression, I thought I would combine those two thoughts.
@@craig7350The other relevant expression regarding leadership is “A fish rots from the head down.”
One guy tried to warn him. He was sacked for his trouble. That quip from Rush's press release about boring 50 year old white guys was probably directed at this employee who happened to be a qualified and experienced marine engineer.
I get your point, and obviously it is weaker in compression, but to be quite picky and because im genuinely curious. Isn't that more to do with the tensile forces (aka bursting forces) that develop in the polymer matrix? Because steel bar, cable and fibres are relied upon in compression all the time because the concrete restrains them from buckling, much like the polymer should for any FRP structure. So isnt it more a poissons ratio type issue, where you think the stiff/strong material takes all the load and forget about the binder material?
Unfortunately, tragedies like these are needed time to time to keep us grounded
and to keep us advancing technologically
This looks like a backyard build with lots of corner cutting I wonder how the guys who built it with such confidence in it feel now.