Hey there! I was the pilot of N134VU in the first clip. I was on my instrument cross-country flight with my instructor in the right seat while I was under the foggles. Plan was to touch-and-go at KSLN, then proceed back north for another t&g at another airport (I forget which, this was a few years ago), then back home to KLNK. We were cleared for the RNAV 17 approach into KSLN, then kicked over to tower by Center. The tower controller instructed us to report crossing the final approach fix at ODGOC, which you can hear me do in the video. The graphic in the video may be a bit misleading as we didn't pass over the field until the go-around. The whole time, I was listening to the exchange between the controller and N1307G and my instructor and I were like: "What is going on with this dude?" He sounded to us like a student pilot on their cross-country solo and very unsure of himself and what he was supposed to be doing. He began moving out onto the runway just as we reached minimums on the approach (250 feet AGL). I took the foggles off and made visual contact. As soon as I saw that plane moving I immediately executed a go-around. The voice you heard announcing the go-around was my instructor who told me: "Just fly. I've got the radio." while I was busy flying the aircraft. Pretty scary moment. But the rest of the flight was uneventful and completed safely. I do feel like the controller was being unnecessarily rude with N1307G. But that doesn't excuse the pilot (or his instructor) for him being unprepared. I don't feel like there was any need for the controller to hold him so long as the FAF is 5 miles out and there was no one in front of us on the approach and no one in the pattern if I recall. He could have launched him ahead of us with no conflict at all. His use of nonstandard phraseology "continue holding" is questionable as well. "Hold position", or "Hold short" would have been more correct. But again, this doesn't excuse 07G. You should never take the runway unless you hear "clear to cross" or "clear for takeoff" with the runway number assignment. Which you should read back and briefly pause before moving in case you heard incorrectly and they need to respond to you and correct you. This also highlights that when you're on a radio frequency, pay attention to who's where and doing what and build your situational awareness. Don't just zone out until you hear your callsign. If you hear that another aicraft is "cleared to land", you can probably expect to hold your position short of the runway. That's part of what allowed me to react so quickly, because I was listening and knew that there was another aircraft holding short as we were on the approach. The controller needs to work on his patience, especially with student pilots. But I'm glad that he didn't file a pilot deviation on him. I think he knew that his unclear instructions would have been in question if there was an investigation and the recordings were pulled. I also hope that the 07G pilot continued his training and learned a valuable lesson. I know I did! EDIT: Just so I don't get roasted, my "Good luck!" signoff was not a dig at N1307G. For additional context, as we were on the approach, things were sounding pretty hectic with another aircraft having to return to the ramp due to a malfunctioning cowl flap along with a couple other things. It sounded like the controller was having a bit of a rough day! Folks were sounding pretty stressed, so I figured a bit of levity might help. Wasn't trying to be an ass to the pilot.
Thanks for giving us more backstory. I have to say though I don't think the controller was that rude or impatient. He didn't even give him a phone number. To me he sounded more like a chiding parent. Also I definitely thought the "Good Luck" was a jab from you haha!
@coolaidmedic5553 I think the only reason the controller didn't deviate the pilot is that he realized his nonstandard phraseology would have been cited as a contributing factor to the incursion. I feel like he was being very short and condescending with the student pilot, which probably stressed the poor kid out more. Both of them hold some blame for the events.
I agree with you that the hold seemed a bit long but you don't know what else is going on. Even when the controllers aren't talking on frequency they could be on the phone talking to departure/approach. And as the video showed there was some other transmissions that were cut out in that 3 minutes wait. I know at our airport when someone is expected to arrive on an instrument approach we can usually expect delays. Even departures can cause a delay because when NY is ready for the departure they're ready right now. "Continue holding" would be confusing. When I heard it I had to cringe a bit too which is probably why the controller didn't give the pilot a harder time. It's like how I make sure we say "I am descending to..." and not "I am going down to..." That said, this student, and I'm also assuming, really should have been paying more attention. And always say "student solo" if you're a student pilot flying solo. All controllers will generally slow down their instructions for you because they know you're nervous. If they said "student solo" I bet the controller wouldn't have told him to make a 180-degree turn.
@@fivestringslinger I respect what your saying and agree with you about the phraseology, but would you still assign blame to the controller if his only fault was being a bit short? I know we don't want to destroy the confidence of the pilot, but at the same time we should hold pilots to a high standard and its not the controllers job to coddle and tiptoe around pilots either. Like I said, I get what your saying and maybe if this controller was more positive then this wouldn't have occurred.
@xplayman I absolutely agree with you there. Students should definitely be encouraged to identify themselves as such. I was, and I think it helped. And you're also right the controller may have had other things going on. Easy to forgot that as a pilot and think we always have their undivided attention whenever we hit the PTT switch.
Was going to say the same thing. This is a prime example of why you don't use the word "continue" in hold instructions. Some pilots, anxious to be somewhere else, only hear the word continue and block out the other part of the instructions. I was taught this at a very early point of my career. If an aircraft needs to hold, even after previously issuing hold instructions, you tell the aircraft "hold position" and nothing more. Yes, the local controller deserves some of the blame here.
Cmon, after the first instruction to HOLD short, the next instruction to CONTINUE would mean continue HOLDING. Who would get continue ROLLING out of that situation?
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183yep ,and then that idiot made a request to takeoff ,and that's when the control tower told him to continue holding .Once atc tells you to hold short, that's what you do until he clears you on to the runway .Btw ,I have landed at this airport. It's 12,300 ft long and 150 ft wide .An old ww2 bomber base and there's hardly anything there now
@@DaytonaDan-bi2wb I did not know that. I’ve never been there. But I love those kind of airports with all that history. I fly for a living, but someday I’ll buy myself a small aircraft and I’d visit these kinds of airports. I’ll keep this airport in mind. And when I get there, I will think of this convo. 😂😂
@@navinjohnson2010m My point was that ATC is held to a very high standard. Pilots play fast and loose with the phraseology, but if something happens ATC will be judged on their correct phraseology. I feel for the controller. He was dealing with a risky situation the best he could.
Local controller should have immediately told aircraft on short final to go around. Instead he tried to get 40G to stop rolling but it was too late at that point. Pilot on short final took evasive action on his own.
Feel for the guy stuck inside the Grumman Cheetah. I flew Grumman Cheetahs and Tigers while going for my PPL in the early to mid 80s. Love that little plane and it was nice to taxi with the canopy slid back on a hot day but on cold days I was aware that water could turn to ice and make that canopy more difficult to deal with.
Certainly, it is the fault of the pilot, but I believe that after observing the pilot's unfamiliar skills, it would be better if ATC could provide him with more detailed instructions. It is quite apparent that he is not aware of what he is doing. Providing him with clear instructions such as "keep holding position" or supplementing with a message like "there will be an aircraft preparing to land" may be more beneficial.
I get the student is at fault here, but it's not 100% on the student. The controller using verbiage like "continue holding" is like someone saying "proceed to stop". Radios aren't always clear and I can see how the student would mess this up. Simply repeating "hold short rwy # at X" is all he needed to do. When I was a student, I had a message from tower on a parallel runway landing once that came in garbled. There was a ground unit on the runway I was on a 2 mile final for and I was getting worried. The message from tower was something like "NXXXX, unit on rwy L will clear, traffic continuing final on R". Since it came in broken, I mistook it as "NXXXX, unit on rwy L, cleared final on R" and started to switch but then got worried so I went around. That was nearly disastrous. There was no need to mention the traffic on the parallel runway when I was on a 1-2 mile final, and they were already established on final. Either way, shit happens and glad everyone was OK.
Sounds like you dont listen ethier .What did the controller tell him to do before that guy called him back and said I want to take off now and depart to the sw ?
This is why certain prowords and phrases are used for takeoff, landing, and crossing instructions. Runway incursions are always dangerous and frequently deadly.
Even if "continue holding" is not standard, the pilot was never given any other instructions besides "hold". So "continue rolling" makes even less sense. He was never given an instruction to move at all. So literally the only thing he can "continue" doing is...holding. This is 100 percent on the pilot.
I don’t understand what you’re saying but “continue holding” on the radio can easily be interpreted as “continue rolling” which is why it’s so important to use standard phraseology. “Hold short of _” is clear and hard to misinterpret. Regardless of how the pilot overall performed, had the controller used standard phraseology like he was trained to do that incursion would have been prevented.
@@SEAAviator My point is even if the pilot thought he heard "continue rolling" he should have not moved. He heard the "continue" part we agree? Well, he was never given an order to move in the first place, so what could he possibly "continue" doing other than holding?
That second story, with the guy locked inside his own airplane, is from another TH-camr called "Fly With Bruno". He posted a video describing what happened, with video, on his own channel.
ATC should be more attentive to situations like this. The pilot might be feeling bad or be having some medical conditions. More stress is not the answer. ATC should have had someone to check on that pilot via radio... and even visually if necessary.
I think that the phrasing "continue" in combination "holding" is very inviting for errors. Either you continue taxi / rolling or you keep holding. The controller made an effort to speak more clearly after the incident. It can be mistaken for sounding a bit hostile, but I believe he was actually concerned about being understood wrong over radio.
Seems like “continue holding, for landing traffic” or “for aircraft on short final” would have been more clear, and scary enough to keep the plane off the runway.
Easy to say behind a keyboard. In reality we can't just ban every single phrase you don't like. Controllers aren't robots (yet) and there is no way "continue holding" should have been interpreted as permission to enter the runway.
The controller acted not very professionel. He used a wrong phraseology that led to this incident. Furthermore he made the pilot feel bad about that, which very likely might have affected/distracted him on his further flight.
Why is it that with all the advanced technology we have nowadays that the radio transmissions are so garbled and staticky coming from the pilots?? How do the flight controllers even understand the pilots?? I wouldn't be able to understand what they're saying without the subtitles.
You know this isn’t the actual ATC tapes right? This was just from someone’s scanner that’s broadcasted online so everyone can hear. So none of these recordings you hear online are the real recordings straight from the FAA. I can assure you the real tapes sound very clear. 👍🏼
They are typically very clear when you’re in the plane. It’s usually only heavy static if you’re flying low while far away, if there’s terrain in the way, or at some airports certain areas on the ground which is typically the only one that can actually lead to issues.
1307G heard what he wanted to hear, not what was said after probably getting impatient. I know "continue holding" is not the best (HOLD SHORT), but no one is ever going to say "continue rolling". Maybe a English as a second language issue, but it doesn't matter, English is the language of aviation in Salina, KS, so you better be able to speak and understand it.
The first pilot sounded extremely tired. Maybe the controller should have delayed him until he was checked by medical personnel and cleared to fly. Imo 🤔
@@Flight_Followerit is once you have been instructed to " hold short runway 17 ...but you don't listen and instead call back and say " I want to take off now and depart to the sw ...that's when the tower tells him no continue holding .The controller just didn't pick up on the fact that he's an idiot and not listening the first time or I'm sure he would have spelled it out for him again...hold short runway 17 ,means you can't take off now
Hey there! I was the pilot of N134VU in the first clip. I was on my instrument cross-country flight with my instructor in the right seat while I was under the foggles. Plan was to touch-and-go at KSLN, then proceed back north for another t&g at another airport (I forget which, this was a few years ago), then back home to KLNK. We were cleared for the RNAV 17 approach into KSLN, then kicked over to tower by Center. The tower controller instructed us to report crossing the final approach fix at ODGOC, which you can hear me do in the video. The graphic in the video may be a bit misleading as we didn't pass over the field until the go-around. The whole time, I was listening to the exchange between the controller and N1307G and my instructor and I were like: "What is going on with this dude?" He sounded to us like a student pilot on their cross-country solo and very unsure of himself and what he was supposed to be doing. He began moving out onto the runway just as we reached minimums on the approach (250 feet AGL). I took the foggles off and made visual contact. As soon as I saw that plane moving I immediately executed a go-around. The voice you heard announcing the go-around was my instructor who told me: "Just fly. I've got the radio." while I was busy flying the aircraft. Pretty scary moment. But the rest of the flight was uneventful and completed safely.
I do feel like the controller was being unnecessarily rude with N1307G. But that doesn't excuse the pilot (or his instructor) for him being unprepared. I don't feel like there was any need for the controller to hold him so long as the FAF is 5 miles out and there was no one in front of us on the approach and no one in the pattern if I recall. He could have launched him ahead of us with no conflict at all. His use of nonstandard phraseology "continue holding" is questionable as well. "Hold position", or "Hold short" would have been more correct. But again, this doesn't excuse 07G. You should never take the runway unless you hear "clear to cross" or "clear for takeoff" with the runway number assignment. Which you should read back and briefly pause before moving in case you heard incorrectly and they need to respond to you and correct you. This also highlights that when you're on a radio frequency, pay attention to who's where and doing what and build your situational awareness. Don't just zone out until you hear your callsign. If you hear that another aicraft is "cleared to land", you can probably expect to hold your position short of the runway. That's part of what allowed me to react so quickly, because I was listening and knew that there was another aircraft holding short as we were on the approach.
The controller needs to work on his patience, especially with student pilots. But I'm glad that he didn't file a pilot deviation on him. I think he knew that his unclear instructions would have been in question if there was an investigation and the recordings were pulled. I also hope that the 07G pilot continued his training and learned a valuable lesson. I know I did!
EDIT: Just so I don't get roasted, my "Good luck!" signoff was not a dig at N1307G. For additional context, as we were on the approach, things were sounding pretty hectic with another aircraft having to return to the ramp due to a malfunctioning cowl flap along with a couple other things. It sounded like the controller was having a bit of a rough day! Folks were sounding pretty stressed, so I figured a bit of levity might help. Wasn't trying to be an ass to the pilot.
Thanks for giving us more backstory. I have to say though I don't think the controller was that rude or impatient. He didn't even give him a phone number. To me he sounded more like a chiding parent. Also I definitely thought the "Good Luck" was a jab from you haha!
@coolaidmedic5553 I think the only reason the controller didn't deviate the pilot is that he realized his nonstandard phraseology would have been cited as a contributing factor to the incursion. I feel like he was being very short and condescending with the student pilot, which probably stressed the poor kid out more. Both of them hold some blame for the events.
I agree with you that the hold seemed a bit long but you don't know what else is going on. Even when the controllers aren't talking on frequency they could be on the phone talking to departure/approach. And as the video showed there was some other transmissions that were cut out in that 3 minutes wait. I know at our airport when someone is expected to arrive on an instrument approach we can usually expect delays. Even departures can cause a delay because when NY is ready for the departure they're ready right now.
"Continue holding" would be confusing. When I heard it I had to cringe a bit too which is probably why the controller didn't give the pilot a harder time. It's like how I make sure we say "I am descending to..." and not "I am going down to..." That said, this student, and I'm also assuming, really should have been paying more attention. And always say "student solo" if you're a student pilot flying solo. All controllers will generally slow down their instructions for you because they know you're nervous. If they said "student solo" I bet the controller wouldn't have told him to make a 180-degree turn.
@@fivestringslinger I respect what your saying and agree with you about the phraseology, but would you still assign blame to the controller if his only fault was being a bit short? I know we don't want to destroy the confidence of the pilot, but at the same time we should hold pilots to a high standard and its not the controllers job to coddle and tiptoe around pilots either. Like I said, I get what your saying and maybe if this controller was more positive then this wouldn't have occurred.
@xplayman I absolutely agree with you there. Students should definitely be encouraged to identify themselves as such. I was, and I think it helped.
And you're also right the controller may have had other things going on. Easy to forgot that as a pilot and think we always have their undivided attention whenever we hit the PTT switch.
This is why we have standard phraseology. "Continue holding" isn't correct. "Hold short of runway 17 at F."
Was going to say the same thing. This is a prime example of why you don't use the word "continue" in hold instructions. Some pilots, anxious to be somewhere else, only hear the word continue and block out the other part of the instructions. I was taught this at a very early point of my career. If an aircraft needs to hold, even after previously issuing hold instructions, you tell the aircraft "hold position" and nothing more. Yes, the local controller deserves some of the blame here.
What I liked most in the first situation is that the controller remained patient and wasn't rude.
I enjoyed that as well. I kept waiting on the pilot to give the controller a number to copy lol
Continue holding may not be standard. Hold short with a runway number is the correct phraseology I'm pretty sure.
Cmon, after the first instruction to HOLD short, the next instruction to CONTINUE would mean continue HOLDING. Who would get continue ROLLING out of that situation?
He already told him to hold short the proper way.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183yep ,and then that idiot made a request to takeoff ,and that's when the control tower told him to continue holding .Once atc tells you to hold short, that's what you do until he clears you on to the runway .Btw ,I have landed at this airport. It's 12,300 ft long and 150 ft wide .An old ww2 bomber base and there's hardly anything there now
@@DaytonaDan-bi2wb I did not know that. I’ve never been there. But I love those kind of airports with all that history. I fly for a living, but someday I’ll buy myself a small aircraft and I’d visit these kinds of airports. I’ll keep this airport in mind. And when I get there, I will think of this convo. 😂😂
@@navinjohnson2010m
My point was that ATC is held to a very high standard. Pilots play fast and loose with the phraseology, but if something happens ATC will be judged on their correct phraseology. I feel for the controller. He was dealing with a risky situation the best he could.
Local controller should have immediately told aircraft on short final to go around. Instead he tried to get 40G to stop rolling but it was too late at that point. Pilot on short final took evasive action on his own.
Ya I also thought it was strange that the controllers first reaction wasn't to immediately order the go-around.
You guys are right but maybe he already saw it going around. Chances of that are slim though..
"Cessna 1307G, do you promise to listen more carefully in the future, or do you need me to give you a phone number?"
Honestly... while not excusing the pilot, this is largely on ATC. That was some pretty poor communication.
Standard radio phraseology is there for a reason....
My thoughts exactly. Pilot needs more practice, but the error was fully created by tower controller's lack of standard phraseology
'Continue' can be misunderstood. ATC should have said Hold short.
That actually make the pilot confused
Feel for the guy stuck inside the Grumman Cheetah. I flew Grumman Cheetahs and Tigers while going for my PPL in the early to mid 80s. Love that little plane and it was nice to taxi with the canopy slid back on a hot day but on cold days I was aware that water could turn to ice and make that canopy more difficult to deal with.
Certainly, it is the fault of the pilot, but I believe that after observing the pilot's unfamiliar skills, it would be better if ATC could provide him with more detailed instructions. It is quite apparent that he is not aware of what he is doing. Providing him with clear instructions such as "keep holding position" or supplementing with a message like "there will be an aircraft preparing to land" may be more beneficial.
Cessna07G sounds like he’s baked af
rip headphone users 3:20
No kidding
I get the student is at fault here, but it's not 100% on the student. The controller using verbiage like "continue holding" is like someone saying "proceed to stop". Radios aren't always clear and I can see how the student would mess this up. Simply repeating "hold short rwy # at X" is all he needed to do.
When I was a student, I had a message from tower on a parallel runway landing once that came in garbled. There was a ground unit on the runway I was on a 2 mile final for and I was getting worried. The message from tower was something like "NXXXX, unit on rwy L will clear, traffic continuing final on R". Since it came in broken, I mistook it as "NXXXX, unit on rwy L, cleared final on R" and started to switch but then got worried so I went around. That was nearly disastrous. There was no need to mention the traffic on the parallel runway when I was on a 1-2 mile final, and they were already established on final.
Either way, shit happens and glad everyone was OK.
Sounds like you dont listen ethier .What did the controller tell him to do before that guy called him back and said I want to take off now and depart to the sw ?
This is why certain prowords and phrases are used for takeoff, landing, and crossing instructions. Runway incursions are always dangerous and frequently deadly.
First one is on the ATC's phraseology imo. And then making fun of him with the other aircraft on the freq doesn't make it better.
jeez, sounded like my mom when I didn't listen to instructions "CESSNA SKYHAWK TEXTRON JR. Cleared for takeoff!!!!"
Even if "continue holding" is not standard, the pilot was never given any other instructions besides "hold". So "continue rolling" makes even less sense. He was never given an instruction to move at all. So literally the only thing he can "continue" doing is...holding. This is 100 percent on the pilot.
I don’t understand what you’re saying but “continue holding” on the radio can easily be interpreted as “continue rolling” which is why it’s so important to use standard phraseology. “Hold short of _” is clear and hard to misinterpret. Regardless of how the pilot overall performed, had the controller used standard phraseology like he was trained to do that incursion would have been prevented.
@@SEAAviator My point is even if the pilot thought he heard "continue rolling" he should have not moved. He heard the "continue" part we agree? Well, he was never given an order to move in the first place, so what could he possibly "continue" doing other than holding?
That second story, with the guy locked inside his own airplane, is from another TH-camr called "Fly With Bruno". He posted a video describing what happened, with video, on his own channel.
Thats why i gave full credit to this guy
ATC should be more attentive to situations like this. The pilot might be feeling bad or be having some medical conditions. More stress is not the answer. ATC should have had someone to check on that pilot via radio... and even visually if necessary.
That's what I thought. I wouldn't want that guy in the air.
N9934Q is a real aviator! Major props and safe skies to you sir!!
Intoxicated pilots
I think that the phrasing "continue" in combination "holding" is very inviting for errors. Either you continue taxi / rolling or you keep holding. The controller made an effort to speak more clearly after the incident. It can be mistaken for sounding a bit hostile, but I believe he was actually concerned about being understood wrong over radio.
I’ve never heard a controller say: “rolling”. So that shouldn’t be confusing.
"continue holding" 🤦♂ what's gonna be next - "continue stopping immediately"?
he sounds tired
Ive never seen a pilot make a 180 on the exit runway path. Like can you even do that 😅?
Is "continue holding" standard? Never heard it.
I think another “hold short off” would be better than a “continue holding”even more considering he is a student
Seems like “continue holding, for landing traffic” or “for aircraft on short final” would have been more clear, and scary enough to keep the plane off the runway.
That is the biggest Cessna I've ever seen!
"continue holding" should be banned phrase. The command should be simply "hold position" regardless of how many times it's given to the same aircraft.
Easy to say behind a keyboard. In reality we can't just ban every single phrase you don't like. Controllers aren't robots (yet) and there is no way "continue holding" should have been interpreted as permission to enter the runway.
N9934Q sounds like the dude from Air Force Proud channel.
Where was the first incident at?
Edit: Salina Kansas. There’s a flight school there I applied and got accepted at. I almost went there 😂
The controller acted not very professionel. He used a wrong phraseology that led to this incident. Furthermore he made the pilot feel bad about that, which very likely might have affected/distracted him on his further flight.
"Guy stuck in his airplane" ☠
Why is it that with all the advanced technology we have nowadays that the radio transmissions are so garbled and staticky coming from the pilots?? How do the flight controllers even understand the pilots?? I wouldn't be able to understand what they're saying without the subtitles.
You know this isn’t the actual ATC tapes right? This was just from someone’s scanner that’s broadcasted online so everyone can hear. So none of these recordings you hear online are the real recordings straight from the FAA. I can assure you the real tapes sound very clear. 👍🏼
They are typically very clear when you’re in the plane. It’s usually only heavy static if you’re flying low while far away, if there’s terrain in the way, or at some airports certain areas on the ground which is typically the only one that can actually lead to issues.
@@JamesAMG oh I see. Makes sense
Controller should have said hold position. Continue should only be used for a taxing aircraft.
1307G heard what he wanted to hear, not what was said after probably getting impatient. I know "continue holding" is not the best (HOLD SHORT), but no one is ever going to say "continue rolling". Maybe a English as a second language issue, but it doesn't matter, English is the language of aviation in Salina, KS, so you better be able to speak and understand it.
BRUNO!!!!
Harrison Ford???????
👍
Im so suprised the first pilot didnt get a number to call, even though mistakes were made by both side
This is a runway incursion and should have been reported to the FAA, which makes GA safer for the rest of us.
That controller sucks.
The first pilot sounded extremely tired. Maybe the controller should have delayed him until he was checked by medical personnel and cleared to fly. Imo 🤔
Doesn't help that the controller gave abnormal instructions like "continue holding"
Well “continue rolling” is not a standard instruction either
@@LeeAndersonMusicit’s not that abnormal.
@@Flight_Followerit is once you have been instructed to " hold short runway 17 ...but you don't listen and instead call back and say " I want to take off now and depart to the sw ...that's when the tower tells him no continue holding .The controller just didn't pick up on the fact that he's an idiot and not listening the first time or I'm sure he would have spelled it out for him again...hold short runway 17 ,means you can't take off now
Since when is continue holding standard phraseology? And then blame the pilot for misunderstanding