Pain. Pain. Pain. Creepy shit, and the Die Me. Die Me. thing was freaky too, because the patients can't even tell you to kill them properly anymore. The Razor dialogue is awesome, with the "Mainly the tea" dialogue.
This is what I want to see more of in Cybermen stories. That entire sequence of Bill wandering throughout the hospital was fantastic! And did a far greater job of showcasing just how chilling the Cybermen can truly be far better than any televised Cyberman story I've seen thus far.
To be honest, while I liked The Doctor Falls, the original Mondasian Cybermen doing the jet pack thing just took away from the horror. Imagine one of the 'Pain Pain Pain' people going "wee!" as they jet pack up.
Biggest flaw for this episode: The only reason the Doctor was late to saving Bill was because he took 5 minutes to explain time dilation caused by close proximity to a black hole to the blue guy. Blue guy didn't ask, and the explanation was mainly for the audience's sake, not blue guy.
@@michaeltaylor4375 I think he would have always been too late, as the Master would have brought Bill to be converted as soon as the Doctor got into the lift, however quickly he did that
This comment is super old but uh, the blue guy still had a gun on them and wouldn't let them leave. The Doctor did the explanation while waiting for him to let his guard down so he could disarm him.
My first ever exposure to the Cybermen was I think Death in Heaven, and then I watched Doomsday after that. The combined effect of those two episodes was to make me think the Cybermen were about as threatening as a water soaked tissue, so I didn't initially understand why Stu seemed to think they were so awesome. Then, however, I saw this, and I think I'm beginning to understand. The Cybermen might be relatively easy to kill, but that isn't what makes them threatening. It's the body horror aspect that makes them scary.
I hate what modern "Who" has done to the Cybermen. This episode shows what it takes to make them scary again: focus on the flesh and the living being inside not double down on the machine part and make the less human/flesh and blood. The horror is built right in, especially when it's people being taken, against their will, and cyber converted. The first time they appeared in the new series they touched on that once or twice (remember Sally, I think it was, "so cold, so cold" and Jackie Tyler from that Earth). They just either lost the nerve to keep playing that up for got lazy for quick, just blow them all up because they're just robots, ending for Cybermen stories. It's like they decided they wanted endings like that and it was, morally, more clean to present then as robots so the good guys could blow them up without have to show remorse or regret.
to be fair though if you've seen the Borg on Star Trek the Cybermen are pretty tame in comparison. not necessarily cause of the body horror (cause in some places the Cybermen do that better) but because Trek (at least in their early appearances) made them feel like a big deal that was a major threat to the good guys and a very affront and subversion of their way of life.
I purchased it on the big finish website then downloaded it onto my phone through the app and listened on a train journey but their are other options. www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/spare-parts-200
I think the Master's presence actually does more than you give it credit for. After all this episode opened with us trying to see if Missy could become good (as well as a good chunk of the season for that matter). In that sense John Simm's Master is the ultimately wrench in that question. Essentially in this story he is the personification of all the Master's dickish tendencies, the devil on the shoulder as Missy is trying to do good. It's also the ultimate reminder of how the Master's past crimes will never truly go away because they are haunting him/her in the present. As Angel has said redemption is not an easy thing and you can never really wash your past actions away and the temptation to just give up because of that fact is always looming over you. Plus this whole thing with Bill is probably one of the most sadistic things that Master has ever done. He befriended Bill for 10 bloody years just so he could make her eventual conversion that much more horrible.
The problem with that is despite it being a good idea it doesn't really work when they've spent so little time on the Master's redemption arc. At no point was I convinced that Missy was genuinely reconsidering her actions. All they did to build this up was show her shed a tear on two occasions. That's not good enough. Especially for a character that's been a major villain for such a long time.
Considering the show's love for status quo I'm not gonna hold my breath if The Master does a whole "Mwahahaha! You are a fool Doctor? To think I could become a good guy. How foolish"
Yes - this becomes very obvious in The Doctor Falls. I thought Simm's portrayal was excellent, but because he was essentially there to act as a foil to Missy he wasn't really given anything to do. I would love to see more of him, tbh. The explanation of what had happened with him prior to this episode was incredibly sketchy; plus it was left deliberately ambiguous as to whether he actually does regenerate at the end of TDF.
I guessed it was him around mid-way through when he was talking to Bill. The fact that he clearly was wearing prosthetics, but wasn't non-human in anyway gave it away.
apparently "some individuals" got offended about the level of horror in this episode.......Lol, This is exactly how the cybermen should be...the most chilling and "adult" villian in the Doctor Who world. This one kept me on the edge of my seat in revulsion.....Rise Of The Cybusmen put me to sleep in 5 minutes. LOL
Just gonna say now, i think the next part was actually pretty good. It was just so full of every moffat trope that if i was completely unfamilliar with moffats work that i'd have liked this one a hell of a lot more than i did.
The main gripe I have with this episode is that Bill became like the 4th girl in a Moffat episode who waited. Also I think the Mondasian cybermen were supposed to be a surprise, but the BBC got paranoid that they either couldn't keep it a secret or couldn't get the viewing figures without revealing them. But it's more of a shame that this is basically all we see the Mondasian cybermen do (aside from cyberBill).
I think the execution of an idea can be just as important as the idea itself. I honestly forgot that this was another waiting woman story because of the framework and context.
Like being the 2017 young millennial I am, for some reason I can watch the entire of you videos without getting the sudden urge to skip to another video, well done! gold star
The cyberman stuff in this was great, stuff around it was a bit more wobbly. The Doctor Falls isn't amazing but it is a solid finale that is by far the best of his tenure.
I think it says something about how low my expectations were when the mere fact they tried explaining why Bill was still Bill, even as a Cyberman, totally blew me away. I doubt Stuart will be as kind.
I think, dramatically, it would've been much better if Bill has sacrficed herself taking out the other Cybermen rather than being given the out of traveling the universe with her water sprite girlfriend or whatever the hell she is.
The Doctor Falls was... Alright. Loved a majority of the 'LAST STAND' feel that it had, alongside Missy going full ball on the redemption idea as she kills the Simm Master and I thought it gave Nardole a decent send off while jam packed with a few nice moments regarding Bill's unawareness of her Cyber conversion early on. That and Capaldi blasting away Cybermen was fantastic. Unfortunately though the episode is bogged down with a few nitpicks like Bill's "Death", Capaldi reaching back into the Tennant well of "I don't wanna go", and a few scenes which I feel could've benefited from a little bit more subtlety rather than New Who's overt usage of over dramatising emotional moments to the point where they lose a lot of their meaning.
Yes, the purposelessness of Simm´s Master was also the thing, that bothered me the most about this episode! They could´ve at least added some awesome flashback, that explains how he landed back on Galifrey, how things went there and how he ended up on that spaceship!
Nice Review. In all honesty I think after his last christmas special you should do an overall on the Moffat Era like as in his strengths, his flaws, his best wnd his worst. I woukd watch that.
I absolutely love this episode. Definitely my favorite of Nu Who. My favorite part about the episode is, looking back on it, Bills conversion is kinda the Doctors fault. If he hadn't blabbered on so much at the top of the ship, for example the whole Venusian Akido exchange, he would have gotten to Bill on time.
Meh, apart from that, yeah. I think Bill's departure is much more logical than Clara's, because we knew Heather existed and has a relationship with Bill...
Spare Parts still wins out, but this is probably my favourite Moffat written story (even if the follow up fell into The Moff's usual trappings... Albeit less egregious than Hellbent) Part of me did have a few nitpicks and desires to tweak certain scenes for added horror factor, but on the whole, I loved World Enough and Time's build up and portrayal of the Mondas Cybermen, with some of the best scenes dedicated to Bill slowly learning more about the plight aboard the ship and the pain in which its people were in. Can't really say much about The Master's redemption arc since I'm convinced that come next showrunner its all gonna be undone as "MWAHAHAHAHA! You never truly thought I could be a good guy right Doctor?" The show loves itself some status quo and I doubt The Master's redemption is gonna stick in her next incarnation. It does kinda piss me off though... Maybe a little too much. Maybe I should go to Mondas where I will have no need of emotions. In fact, why don't we all go to Mondas. You will become like us.
7thWhoKnots and I are currently in the making of a Cyberman film, and we're doing a rather good job of recreating the costumes here. It's a Doctorless fanfilm and I really hope you get to watch it when it comes out.
I think the tear was relevant because it shows that Bill wasn't fully converted as she still was able to shed tears which is a human trait. Secondly, it also foreshadows that Heather (the puddle girl) left her tears to Bill, so that when it comes into play later, it would make sense.
RobTFilms My issue with Bill is that when she leaves the TARDIS, it's the EXACT SAME companion exit that Moffat wrote for all his companions (Amy, Rory, & Clara). "I'm not technically dead, but I'm leaving in a way that promises there will be no chance of you ever seeing me again." That's partially why I'm so excited for the Christmas special. Because Bill comes back
I guess John Sims master was kinda included for two reason 1: Making Fans sqeeeeee 2: Making sense in Canon with Spare Parts, because of the second brain-lobe stuff that was taken from the Doctor's Timelord Biology in, judging that the Master is also a Timelord.
One other thing I liked about the whole prelude to Bill getting shot thing that you didn't mention is how they subverted the Doctor speech thing. Usually in these situations the Doc is able to talk a person down into doing what he wants (in fact the speech he uses here is lifted from Oxygen). But instead it fails and in the heat of the moment Bill gets shot which makes the moment have even more impact.
The Cybermen should really be the doctor's worst enemy as they have killed 2 of his companions. Unlike Gallafriy they didn't get brought back and face it the Doctor always held the time Lords in contempt anyway.
Another thing about that zoom in shot of Cyber-Bill's eye is that her tear comes from the wrong end of her eye. Tears come from the red tear generator thingy at the side closest to the nose not the outer side. That annoyed me
I'm convinced that Moffat has a split personality; one personality who actually tries to write engaging and interesting stories and another personality who just cares about mystery boxes and fan service
Yes. Thank you. I hated the forced Danny Pink relationship. In his first few minutes, they drop his clunky melodramatic backstory right in our laps like a ton of bricks, as a single tear rolls down his cheek. And there we go. We're told, in all caps, that this is a sympathetic character that we're meant to sympathize with... so start sympathizing, damn it! Remember how Rory came off as kind of a pathetic drip for 2 or 3 episodes, and slowly he revealed himself as the goofball with a heart of gold? Somebody worth liking, as a character? Yeah, screw that noise! We'll take care of that with a 20-second flash-back of a boilerplate tragic sob-story and an unconvincing tear.
Capaldi's Doctor isn't a good nor bad man. He is an idiot with a box. He is just a kind man floating through the universe, trying to help people whenever and however he can.
8:51 it's just a different group of humans coming up with the cyber men, on the ship far away from mondas. Something like how the doctor describes the cyber men rising in different times and different places, or what he termed 'parallel evolution'
I don't see how this'll conflict with Spare Parts, since this just a colony ship and it's trapped in a black hole now. The Master's influence could've been what steered them towards the Mondasian cyberman design or it could've been they had the cybermen planned all along as a fallback.
The Doctor Falls does pretty much say that Spare Parts and all these other Genesis of the Cybermen stories could still take place due to "parallel evolution", y'know the Cybermen still happen on Mondas, Telos, Marinus, etc., just coinidentially seperate from each other
I always got the impression that there wasn't enough space for the whole planet on the ship so those who went on the ship became "Razor Cybermen" which eventually colonized the stars on Telos, Marinus, Etc. While those who stayed behind on Mondas eventually became the true Mondasian Cybermen who would be in stories like Spare Parts, The Silver Turk, Tenth Planet, ETC...
The garden scene also had me imagining Moffat, Peter Capaldi and Pearl Mackie suddenly appearing out of the bushes. Mackie would give Stu a big hug, while Moffat would give him a hard punch in the face. ;)
Why did the half finished cybermen from the hospital spend months (of their time) going to get a human (Bill) from the other end of their ship when they had a whole city full of people.? The same question goes for their "raids" to snatch kids off the higher levels when these went wrong and were met with resistance why did they continue? I hated that the mondasian cybermen had to evolve into the "new who" ones despite the really obvious higher level of technonolgy in the mondas ship compared to early twentyfirst century earth (even the alternative reality one) where the new Who cybermen arose. I do like the idea that Mondas culture was just about to give rise to cyberman society at the point when the big ship left so they were culturally or historically determined to do that. I liked the whole classic who idea of the cybermen they could have been the borg of their day and "Genesis of the cybermen" along the lines of genesis of the daleks is a missing story that should have been written years ago. Genesis of the cybermen............ The doctor goes to mondas and stops the cybernetics research or else backs a faction that opposes it's implementation. He maybe does this because all these regenerations later he now wishes that as tom baker he had actually done his job on skaro properly ! Or maybe he is using the whole thing to teach a new companion how usless it is to try and change "timey wimey stuff" I'd love to see the doctor agonising as a nice democratic mondas is being seduced by the lure of a promised hi tech answer to the problems of it's society. The result of his time meddling is that when he returns (a couple of episodes later)mondas society has suffered a great plague or civil war that would otherwise not have happened and realising it was due to alien interference they then develop into a hugely xenophobic society or are in some other way worse than they would have been (maybe by delaying the process better speech modulation or weapons tech goes on in the meantime and they are more successful as cybermen) So with tears in his eyes the lad from gallifrey goes back to mondas just after his meddling visit and undoes his work this time teaching them cybernetics or blackmailling the nice leader of the "anti-cybernetic opposition faction" Becoming in effect the davros of the cybermen !! Maybe even Our boy could be forced into this not by his own conscience but by a survivor of a time sensitive species who's planet has been knackered by the cybermen whilst they know it should have had a nice future. They could be all lovely and spiritual and able to see in time but not corporeal and so unable to actually manipulate objects and build time machines and weapons and stuff. I'm rambling now but I think gallifrey was once invaded by (along with sontarants) some sort of transdimensional things that only manifested is this universe as ethereal music and a shade of light on some cellophane stuff. They could come back as a reward to old geeks !
I knew it was John Simm IMMEDIATELY. It's John Simm, nobody has that evil-face-range. The rest of the episode's great. Especially Capaldi's face when he sees the Simm Master.
He's so inconsistent. He's been all around great in Series 10, with The Pilot, Extremis, WEAT and The Doctor Falls, only stumbling with Pyramid because his mom fell ill and was literally on her deathbed (and died). In terms of his good stories, Moffat is one of the best writers in NuWho, but he has so many poor stories its mind-boggling and makes me wonder if there are two Moffats and they keep fighting to see who writes the next story.
Ignore him. While JustSomeRandomGuy Online is right sometimes, he generally hates everything Moffat touches, even if Moffat didn't write it. He hates Heaven Sent the most, and RTD is basically a god to him.
Except for that stupid save Moffett, once again pulled, to get Bill out of being a Cyberman. Why won't he just let characters die? There IS dignity and honor and true emotion in a meaningful death. It's like he doesn't understand that pulling some 'magical' trickery to save a character is worth than just giving them a heroic exit.
I can see why people would dislike her exit but I liked it. We'll have to wait and see what Stu thinks of it. There are good arguments to be made for both sides.
I think the inclusion of John Simm's Master just emphasised how much he really doesn't belong alongside Twelve. Twelve is a flawed, serious, authentic adult, and here Simm just comes across as a juvenile, psychopathic cartoon character, stroking his goatee and going, "I'm so EEEEEVIL. Bwahahahahaha." To a small extent Michelle Gomez does that, yes; but I thought Simm's response to Twelve's speech about kindness just made him look like a pointlessly vindictive child, more than anything else. I think it's that although Gomez's theatrics were a lot of fun, in general, psychopaths like the Master don't really interest me much. "Oh, it's you again. Can someone pass me a shotgun?"
A flawed, serious, authentic adult... that's how you could describe Hartnell, not the guy whose personality changes depending on what gag Moffat finds funny this week.
I actually thought that Simm's portrayal here was very restrained for the most part (which is how he originally wanted to play the character). His petulance & petty cruelty has always been a facet of the Master. This episode demonstrated how ultimately useless such aspects are & how Missy has (mainly) developed beyond them. When he tells 12 "Take a good look at this face. It's the one that never listened to a word you said" I took that as an acknowledgement that he realises that his future incarnation will change all this - a betrayal of identity, to his mind. It makes the two Masters' ending a poetic inevitability.
I think that's slightly unfair tbh. Doctor Falls wasn't amazing but it was much better that the usual Moffat finales apart from the deus ex-macina with Heather. If it didn't have to set up a Christmas episode it could have been brilliant.
Captain Rex of the 501st while I really like how it fixes Cyberman continuity, I find it very ironic that this 2 parter does the thing fans have been wanting for ages in new who (bringing back the mondasian/"true" Cybermen ) but then basically says the Cybermen's origin doesn't matter.
Brandon Hudson the original Cybermen where in nightmare in silver. They were likely the Cybermen in series 6. Writers think that the Cybus Cybermen met the Original Cybermen and combined.
Moffat's thought process: "hmmm I want to deliver a gut punch by killing a character, but I also don't want the audience to feel too sad :(, I know lets Deux ex-machine them back to life. That won't cheapen the emotional impact of the previous moment at all. It's a kids show, I can't let the characters be beaten by death, that's for adults, so there's no need to set up and establish the possibility the character can be saved. I'll just do it. It'll be a surprise. "
I would have preferred if Bill had slowly started to lose faith in the Doctor and had become darker. I mean, she was trapped there for at least 10 years with only one person to talk to. I wanted it to kind of be like future Amy in The Girl Who Waited, where she gave up on the Doctor and adjusted to life in that place. It was just not realistic for me that Bill remained the exact same for 10 years. She was away from home, away from friends, away from family, she had little entertainment, she could barely go anywhere...and yet she didn't change at all? Okay... >_>
Yes Stuart, but the fact that you were so invested in Bill and Razors relationship is what makes the Masters whole evil scheme that much more twisted.
It's a stubagsian cyberman
Weeeee waited fooor his Videoooooo!
The Doctor Eh, bit of a stretch for a pun.
Lawrence Gist nahh
Pain. Pain. Pain.
Creepy shit, and the Die Me. Die Me. thing was freaky too, because the patients can't even tell you to kill them properly anymore.
The Razor dialogue is awesome, with the "Mainly the tea" dialogue.
This is what I want to see more of in Cybermen stories.
That entire sequence of Bill wandering throughout the hospital was fantastic! And did a far greater job of showcasing just how chilling the Cybermen can truly be far better than any televised Cyberman story I've seen thus far.
Why were the Mondasian Cybermen doing the stompy stomp though?
Obviously because they needed to pack in those new JET BOOSTERS!!!
"I AAAAAAAM SUPERMAAAAAAN!!!"
To be honest, while I liked The Doctor Falls, the original Mondasian Cybermen doing the jet pack thing just took away from the horror. Imagine one of the 'Pain Pain Pain' people going "wee!" as they jet pack up.
Yeah, I'm in agreement with a lot of that.
Also could've done without the Cybus or NiS Cybermen now that I think about it.
Biggest flaw for this episode:
The only reason the Doctor was late to saving Bill was because he took 5 minutes to explain time dilation caused by close proximity to a black hole to the blue guy. Blue guy didn't ask, and the explanation was mainly for the audience's sake, not blue guy.
actually...now i think about it.....the second he realised about the dilation...shouldnt he have literally run in desperation to try and save bill?
@@michaeltaylor4375 I think he would have always been too late, as the Master would have brought Bill to be converted as soon as the Doctor got into the lift, however quickly he did that
This comment is super old but uh, the blue guy still had a gun on them and wouldn't let them leave. The Doctor did the explanation while waiting for him to let his guard down so he could disarm him.
My first ever exposure to the Cybermen was I think Death in Heaven, and then I watched Doomsday after that. The combined effect of those two episodes was to make me think the Cybermen were about as threatening as a water soaked tissue, so I didn't initially understand why Stu seemed to think they were so awesome. Then, however, I saw this, and I think I'm beginning to understand.
The Cybermen might be relatively easy to kill, but that isn't what makes them threatening. It's the body horror aspect that makes them scary.
I hate what modern "Who" has done to the Cybermen. This episode shows what it takes to make them scary again: focus on the flesh and the living being inside not double down on the machine part and make the less human/flesh and blood.
The horror is built right in, especially when it's people being taken, against their will, and cyber converted. The first time they appeared in the new series they touched on that once or twice (remember Sally, I think it was, "so cold, so cold" and Jackie Tyler from that Earth). They just either lost the nerve to keep playing that up for got lazy for quick, just blow them all up because they're just robots, ending for Cybermen stories.
It's like they decided they wanted endings like that and it was, morally, more clean to present then as robots so the good guys could blow them up without have to show remorse or regret.
If you liked this then Spare Parts is worth a listen.
to be fair though if you've seen the Borg on Star Trek the Cybermen are pretty tame in comparison. not necessarily cause of the body horror (cause in some places the Cybermen do that better) but because Trek (at least in their early appearances) made them feel like a big deal that was a major threat to the good guys and a very affront and subversion of their way of life.
I'd love to listen to it myself. Where do I find it?
I purchased it on the big finish website then downloaded it onto my phone through the app and listened on a train journey but their are other options.
www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/spare-parts-200
I think the Master's presence actually does more than you give it credit for. After all this episode opened with us trying to see if Missy could become good (as well as a good chunk of the season for that matter). In that sense John Simm's Master is the ultimately wrench in that question. Essentially in this story he is the personification of all the Master's dickish tendencies, the devil on the shoulder as Missy is trying to do good. It's also the ultimate reminder of how the Master's past crimes will never truly go away because they are haunting him/her in the present. As Angel has said redemption is not an easy thing and you can never really wash your past actions away and the temptation to just give up because of that fact is always looming over you. Plus this whole thing with Bill is probably one of the most sadistic things that Master has ever done. He befriended Bill for 10 bloody years just so he could make her eventual conversion that much more horrible.
The problem with that is despite it being a good idea it doesn't really work when they've spent so little time on the Master's redemption arc. At no point was I convinced that Missy was genuinely reconsidering her actions. All they did to build this up was show her shed a tear on two occasions. That's not good enough. Especially for a character that's been a major villain for such a long time.
Simm's purpose in the story is to validate Missy's redemption.
Which I'm sure will be invalidated soon enough once Captain Chibbers decides to bring The Master back in his run.
The Master is too great a villain to stay dead.
Considering the show's love for status quo I'm not gonna hold my breath if The Master does a whole "Mwahahaha! You are a fool Doctor? To think I could become a good guy. How foolish"
I heard John Simm wanted to do more, so Chibnall might just insert more stories set right after he left Gallifrey.
Yes - this becomes very obvious in The Doctor Falls. I thought Simm's portrayal was excellent, but because he was essentially there to act as a foil to Missy he wasn't really given anything to do. I would love to see more of him, tbh. The explanation of what had happened with him prior to this episode was incredibly sketchy; plus it was left deliberately ambiguous as to whether he actually does regenerate at the end of TDF.
Sorry, but John Simm's reveal was incredible. Loved and agreed with everything else though.
When I put together who that character actually was I was like SHHHHHHIIIIIITTTTTT.
I guessed it was him around mid-way through when he was talking to Bill. The fact that he clearly was wearing prosthetics, but wasn't non-human in anyway gave it away.
It probably would've been better if we didn't know John Simm was returning.
apparently "some individuals" got offended about the level of horror in this episode.......Lol, This is exactly how the cybermen should be...the most chilling and "adult" villian in the Doctor Who world. This one kept me on the edge of my seat in revulsion.....Rise Of The Cybusmen put me to sleep in 5 minutes. LOL
Just gonna say now, i think the next part was actually pretty good. It was just so full of every moffat trope that if i was completely unfamilliar with moffats work that i'd have liked this one a hell of a lot more than i did.
"I hAve bEEN wAitING FOR thIS reViEEW"
Talking as Mondasian Cybermen is really fun.
I get the feeling Moffet watched Interstellar before writing this episode.
I knew Moffat was watching, always watching
I KNEW YOUR MOFFAT
The main gripe I have with this episode is that Bill became like the 4th girl in a Moffat episode who waited.
Also I think the Mondasian cybermen were supposed to be a surprise, but the BBC got paranoid that they either couldn't keep it a secret or couldn't get the viewing figures without revealing them. But it's more of a shame that this is basically all we see the Mondasian cybermen do (aside from cyberBill).
Bill actually even sits in an inverted tower. *sigh* and yeah, it's a big Moffat issue, the Waiting Women thing.
I think the execution of an idea can be just as important as the idea itself. I honestly forgot that this was another waiting woman story because of the framework and context.
I guess Moffat's just trying to make the character relatable because we're all waiting for Moffat to leave.
Like being the 2017 young millennial I am, for some reason I can watch the entire of you videos without getting the sudden urge to skip to another video, well done! gold star
The cyberman stuff in this was great, stuff around it was a bit more wobbly. The Doctor Falls isn't amazing but it is a solid finale that is by far the best of his tenure.
the doctor falls had some amazing shots in it.
JackIntheBoxGaming it's a load of fun explodey bollocks.
I think it says something about how low my expectations were when the mere fact they tried explaining why Bill was still Bill, even as a Cyberman, totally blew me away. I doubt Stuart will be as kind.
I think, dramatically, it would've been much better if Bill has sacrficed herself taking out the other Cybermen rather than being given the out of traveling the universe with her water sprite girlfriend or whatever the hell she is.
The Doctor Falls was... Alright.
Loved a majority of the 'LAST STAND' feel that it had, alongside Missy going full ball on the redemption idea as she kills the Simm Master and I thought it gave Nardole a decent send off while jam packed with a few nice moments regarding Bill's unawareness of her Cyber conversion early on.
That and Capaldi blasting away Cybermen was fantastic.
Unfortunately though the episode is bogged down with a few nitpicks like Bill's "Death", Capaldi reaching back into the Tennant well of "I don't wanna go", and a few scenes which I feel could've benefited from a little bit more subtlety rather than New Who's overt usage of over dramatising emotional moments to the point where they lose a lot of their meaning.
Yes, the purposelessness of Simm´s Master was also the thing, that bothered me the most about this episode! They could´ve at least added some awesome flashback, that explains how he landed back on Galifrey, how things went there and how he ended up on that spaceship!
Pain pain pain. That I feel is pity for Mondasian Cybermen.
3:27-3:35 So Moffat is like Ego from Gaurdians of the Galaxy 2. Starts off as a decent guy then reviles that he is a giant winy greedy parasite.
He Who Mondas
Lawrence Gist more like he who moandas
Razor's mask is torn off, reveals a bald man with sinister eyes and charming smile.
"I'm the Master... Hello me!"
What I wish had happened.
Caxkj0 If only. Dark Eyes, Vampire of the Mind, and The Two Masters were amazing.
Nice Review. In all honesty I think after his last christmas special you should do an overall on the Moffat Era like as in his strengths, his flaws, his best wnd his worst. I woukd watch that.
I absolutely love this episode. Definitely my favorite of Nu Who. My favorite part about the episode is, looking back on it, Bills conversion is kinda the Doctors fault. If he hadn't blabbered on so much at the top of the ship, for example the whole Venusian Akido exchange, he would have gotten to Bill on time.
Okay, this is weird. Am I the only one who thinks The Doctor Falls was fucking awesome?
Apart from it giving us "Two magical lesbians set off to explore the universe," again, you mean?
Meh, apart from that, yeah. I think Bill's departure is much more logical than Clara's, because we knew Heather existed and has a relationship with Bill...
Well it certainly wasn't as bad as Hell Bent that's for sure! I thought it was good, but not perfect.
Spare Parts still wins out, but this is probably my favourite Moffat written story (even if the follow up fell into The Moff's usual trappings... Albeit less egregious than Hellbent)
Part of me did have a few nitpicks and desires to tweak certain scenes for added horror factor, but on the whole, I loved World Enough and Time's build up and portrayal of the Mondas Cybermen, with some of the best scenes dedicated to Bill slowly learning more about the plight aboard the ship and the pain in which its people were in.
Can't really say much about The Master's redemption arc since I'm convinced that come next showrunner its all gonna be undone as "MWAHAHAHAHA! You never truly thought I could be a good guy right Doctor?"
The show loves itself some status quo and I doubt The Master's redemption is gonna stick in her next incarnation.
It does kinda piss me off though... Maybe a little too much.
Maybe I should go to Mondas where I will have no need of emotions.
In fact, why don't we all go to Mondas.
You will become like us.
I agree with pretty much with everything you said here.
Ngl I really feel that they missed the opportunity to call one part Exodus of the Cybermen.
Dude, I´VE LOST MY SHIT at the *"Moffat´s massive, massive brain"* part! That´s YOUR joke! Now and forever.
7thWhoKnots and I are currently in the making of a Cyberman film, and we're doing a rather good job of recreating the costumes here. It's a Doctorless fanfilm and I really hope you get to watch it when it comes out.
He's getting better because he's leaving. That way we'll miss him even though so much of his tenure was garbage.
Series 10 really surprised me with how good it was. After hell bent I was just completely burned and expecting things would never get better.
I think the tear was relevant because it shows that Bill wasn't fully converted as she still was able to shed tears which is a human trait. Secondly, it also foreshadows that Heather (the puddle girl) left her tears to Bill, so that when it comes into play later, it would make sense.
Even though it has flaws, I actually liked "The Doctor Falls" But I'll talk about that more on your next video.
"Thought I'd remind you I'm a lesbian, Doctor, okay"
RobTFilms My issue with Bill is that when she leaves the TARDIS, it's the EXACT SAME companion exit that Moffat wrote for all his companions (Amy, Rory, & Clara). "I'm not technically dead, but I'm leaving in a way that promises there will be no chance of you ever seeing me again."
That's partially why I'm so excited for the Christmas special. Because Bill comes back
Bill was cool, I just think they really needed another series last year, think about a series with 12 and Nardole having fun adventures!
Also, Bill's exit with a female character is the same as Clara's, pretty much
@@RobTFilms yeah but it made more sense this time. With Clara it was just because Moffat didn't want to kill her off properly
This episode actually made the Cybermen great again! I loved it!
I guess John Sims master was kinda included for two reason
1: Making Fans sqeeeeee
2: Making sense in Canon with Spare Parts, because of the second brain-lobe stuff that was taken from the Doctor's Timelord Biology in, judging that the Master is also a Timelord.
I'm glad you enjoyed this episode, I was looking forward to hearing your thoughts! Can't wait for the next one...
This episode actually actually scared the shit out of my little brother when we sat down to watch it on ABC3, and he's 14!
One other thing I liked about the whole prelude to Bill getting shot thing that you didn't mention is how they subverted the Doctor speech thing. Usually in these situations the Doc is able to talk a person down into doing what he wants (in fact the speech he uses here is lifted from Oxygen). But instead it fails and in the heat of the moment Bill gets shot which makes the moment have even more impact.
The Cybermen should really be the doctor's worst enemy as they have killed 2 of his companions. Unlike Gallafriy they didn't get brought back and face it the Doctor always held the time Lords in contempt anyway.
Just stumbled onto your channel and oh my gosh I love your reviews
Another thing about that zoom in shot of Cyber-Bill's eye is that her tear comes from the wrong end of her eye. Tears come from the red tear generator thingy at the side closest to the nose not the outer side. That annoyed me
I'm convinced that Moffat has a split personality; one personality who actually tries to write engaging and interesting stories and another personality who just cares about mystery boxes and fan service
haha i loved my cameo. fantastic review. also felt this episode was great, part 2 is good, much better than hell bent.
joshua powell good but could have been great if Bill was mercy killed by the doctor
Joey Kevorkian Bill shouldn't have been brought back to life
joshua powell the video been up for 2 hours how did you comment 21 hours ago?
Curtis Easton pareons who donate over $5usd (£4ish) get videos 24hrs early and get cameos everyother review or so hence me in my scarf slaping stu.
joshua powell early access is included in cheapo package
For goodness sake Stuart that review was terrifying.
Yes. Thank you. I hated the forced Danny Pink relationship. In his first few minutes, they drop his clunky melodramatic backstory right in our laps like a ton of bricks, as a single tear rolls down his cheek. And there we go. We're told, in all caps, that this is a sympathetic character that we're meant to sympathize with... so start sympathizing, damn it!
Remember how Rory came off as kind of a pathetic drip for 2 or 3 episodes, and slowly he revealed himself as the goofball with a heart of gold? Somebody worth liking, as a character? Yeah, screw that noise! We'll take care of that with a 20-second flash-back of a boilerplate tragic sob-story and an unconvincing tear.
Capaldi's Doctor isn't a good nor bad man. He is an idiot with a box. He is just a kind man floating through the universe, trying to help people whenever and however he can.
Oh, I was waiting for this!
I still don't know what to think about the next episode
Next week you'll be headbutting the desk
8:51 it's just a different group of humans coming up with the cyber men, on the ship far away from mondas. Something like how the doctor describes the cyber men rising in different times and different places, or what he termed 'parallel evolution'
I don't see how this'll conflict with Spare Parts, since this just a colony ship and it's trapped in a black hole now. The Master's influence could've been what steered them towards the Mondasian cyberman design or it could've been they had the cybermen planned all along as a fallback.
Yah! Who Reviews...also known as the highlight of my day! I'm so very, very sad!
Also I inflicted violence on you! Yah!
The Doctor Falls does pretty much say that Spare Parts and all these other Genesis of the Cybermen stories could still take place due to "parallel evolution", y'know the Cybermen still happen on Mondas, Telos, Marinus, etc., just coinidentially seperate from each other
I always got the impression that there wasn't enough space for the whole planet on the ship so those who went on the ship became "Razor Cybermen" which eventually colonized the stars on Telos, Marinus, Etc. While those who stayed behind on Mondas eventually became the true Mondasian Cybermen who would be in stories like Spare Parts, The Silver Turk, Tenth Planet, ETC...
Operation Exodus is the second part of the continuing initative made in Spare Parts
The garden scene also had me imagining Moffat, Peter Capaldi and Pearl Mackie suddenly appearing out of the bushes. Mackie would give Stu a big hug, while Moffat would give him a hard punch in the face. ;)
hmm.... that end gives a whole new meaning to your intro!
that end skit was great.
Why did the half finished cybermen from the hospital spend months (of their time) going to get a human (Bill) from the other end of their ship when they had a whole city full of people.?
The same question goes for their "raids" to snatch kids off the higher levels when these went wrong and were met with resistance why did they continue?
I hated that the mondasian cybermen had to evolve into the "new who" ones despite the really obvious higher level of technonolgy in the mondas ship compared to early twentyfirst century earth (even the alternative reality one) where the new Who cybermen arose.
I do like the idea that Mondas culture was just about to give rise to cyberman society at the point when the big ship left so they were culturally or historically determined to do that.
I liked the whole classic who idea of the cybermen they could have been the borg of their day and "Genesis of the cybermen" along the lines of genesis of the daleks is a missing story that should have been written years ago.
Genesis of the cybermen............
The doctor goes to mondas and stops the cybernetics research or else backs a faction that opposes it's implementation.
He maybe does this because all these regenerations later he now wishes that as tom baker he had actually done his job on skaro properly ! Or maybe he is using the whole thing to teach a new companion how usless it is to try and change "timey wimey stuff"
I'd love to see the doctor agonising as a nice democratic mondas is being seduced by the lure of a promised hi tech answer to the problems of it's society.
The result of his time meddling is that when he returns (a couple of episodes later)mondas society has suffered a great plague or civil war that would otherwise not have happened and realising it was due to alien interference they then develop into a hugely xenophobic society or are in some other way worse than they would have been (maybe by delaying the process better speech modulation or weapons tech goes on in the meantime and they are more successful as cybermen)
So with tears in his eyes the lad from gallifrey goes back to mondas just after his meddling visit and undoes his work this time teaching them cybernetics or blackmailling the nice leader of the "anti-cybernetic opposition faction" Becoming in effect the davros of the cybermen !!
Maybe even Our boy could be forced into this not by his own conscience but by a survivor of a time sensitive species who's planet has been knackered by the cybermen whilst they know it should have had a nice future. They could be all lovely and spiritual and able to see in time but not corporeal and so unable to actually manipulate objects and build time machines and weapons and stuff. I'm rambling now but I think gallifrey was once invaded by (along with sontarants) some sort of transdimensional things that only manifested is this universe as ethereal music and a shade of light on some cellophane stuff. They could come back as a reward to old geeks !
Ahh the cyber stubagful is terrifying
I hope you catch the slight Frobisher reference in part 2 Stu!
In my opinion it was the best finally episode of he new who
Finally the review is up!
When I watched originally, I swore it was written explicitly for you personally.
This review was hilarious and fantastic
Also nice one on admitting the tenth planet isn't that great. Because I think it's very overrated
this review is a little similar to mine...
Stubagful watches The Whoniversals confirmed?
I knew it was John Simm IMMEDIATELY. It's John Simm, nobody has that evil-face-range.
The rest of the episode's great. Especially Capaldi's face when he sees the Simm Master.
Great episodes like this make Moffat's crap episodes even more annoying.
He's so inconsistent. He's been all around great in Series 10, with The Pilot, Extremis, WEAT and The Doctor Falls, only stumbling with Pyramid because his mom fell ill and was literally on her deathbed (and died).
In terms of his good stories, Moffat is one of the best writers in NuWho, but he has so many poor stories its mind-boggling and makes me wonder if there are two Moffats and they keep fighting to see who writes the next story.
But this isn't a great episode
JustSomeRandomGuy Online yes it is. Best since heaven sent.
Ignore him. While JustSomeRandomGuy Online is right sometimes, he generally hates everything Moffat touches, even if Moffat didn't write it. He hates Heaven Sent the most, and RTD is basically a god to him.
Wings of Darkness what do you expect? Heaven Sent is so poorly Written and I don't think RTD is God but I know he wouldn't write rubbish like that
Don't worry Stu, part 2 is just as good, if not better.
Except for that stupid save Moffett, once again pulled, to get Bill out of being a Cyberman. Why won't he just let characters die? There IS dignity and honor and true emotion in a meaningful death. It's like he doesn't understand that pulling some 'magical' trickery to save a character is worth than just giving them a heroic exit.
I can see why people would dislike her exit but I liked it. We'll have to wait and see what Stu thinks of it. There are good arguments to be made for both sides.
OJWH It wasn't as bad as Hell Bent though. In fact, I liked it.
Bill Potts....was Spare Parts all along!!!! BOOOMMMM!!!!!
That little intro had some serious Adult Swim at 3am vibes lol
Don't worry Moffett DOES piss it all away in the second half and does his useal pointless 'magical' save to get Bill Potts out of trouble.
I think the inclusion of John Simm's Master just emphasised how much he really doesn't belong alongside Twelve. Twelve is a flawed, serious, authentic adult, and here Simm just comes across as a juvenile, psychopathic cartoon character, stroking his goatee and going, "I'm so EEEEEVIL. Bwahahahahaha." To a small extent Michelle Gomez does that, yes; but I thought Simm's response to Twelve's speech about kindness just made him look like a pointlessly vindictive child, more than anything else.
I think it's that although Gomez's theatrics were a lot of fun, in general, psychopaths like the Master don't really interest me much.
"Oh, it's you again. Can someone pass me a shotgun?"
A flawed, serious, authentic adult... that's how you could describe Hartnell, not the guy whose personality changes depending on what gag Moffat finds funny this week.
I actually thought that Simm's portrayal here was very restrained for the most part (which is how he originally wanted to play the character). His petulance & petty cruelty has always been a facet of the Master. This episode demonstrated how ultimately useless such aspects are & how Missy has (mainly) developed beyond them. When he tells 12 "Take a good look at this face. It's the one that never listened to a word you said" I took that as an acknowledgement that he realises that his future incarnation will change all this - a betrayal of identity, to his mind. It makes the two Masters' ending a poetic inevitability.
The wait was worth it!
This doesn’t contradict Spare Parts. That takes place on Mondas, this takes place parallel to that.
Its gonna be Hell Bent/The End of Time all over again with The Doctor Falls
TheJaviferrol is it?
Not really. Hell Bent was several metric tonnes of disappointment. The Doctor Falls was only half as disappointing as you'd expect.
The Doctor Falls was ok to be honest. It's not on par with Hell Bent though which was quite bad.
I think that's slightly unfair tbh. Doctor Falls wasn't amazing but it was much better that the usual Moffat finales apart from the deus ex-macina with Heather. If it didn't have to set up a Christmas episode it could have been brilliant.
This episode is fucking beautiful... but then the doctor falls. Don't hold your breathe on him getting better again.
At the 7:21 mark of the video is absolute joy
I still love that intro.
Hey Stu, Bojack Horseman season 4 is out now. Please review my favorite Bojack Horseman episode The old sugarman place.
Glad you enjoyed it, I certainly did.
Wait Stuart did you just upload your reviews from s8?
The Master and Cybermen also a black character gets converted
Spare parts is still canon. They talk about it in part 2. In fact it makes some of the comic origins canon. They are always beginning.
Captain Rex of the 501st while I really like how it fixes Cyberman continuity, I find it very ironic that this 2 parter does the thing fans have been wanting for ages in new who (bringing back the mondasian/"true" Cybermen ) but then basically says the Cybermen's origin doesn't matter.
Brandon Hudson the original Cybermen where in nightmare in silver. They were likely the Cybermen in series 6. Writers think that the Cybus Cybermen met the Original Cybermen and combined.
@@BH-98 I was disappointed at first but it makes it easier to just assume that the most modern cybermen are an amalgamation of the others.
Well now I'm super curious to see what you'll think about the finale.
I'm of two minds about it personally.
"Fortunately, the other one is unconscious." ;) ;) ;)
If I felt more about bill's characters or she had more of a character I would of felt more invested in his story
This was the first cyberman story in new Who to actually creep me out!!
Also sorry I couldn't get an audio saying focus Stuart to you but I had real busy weekend
1:40 potts potts potts potss
I think your going to have issue with the season final, it's got Moffat's fingerprints all over it.
Moffat's thought process: "hmmm I want to deliver a gut punch by killing a character, but I also don't want the audience to feel too sad :(, I know lets Deux ex-machine them back to life. That won't cheapen the emotional impact of the previous moment at all. It's a kids show, I can't let the characters be beaten by death, that's for adults, so there's no need to set up and establish the possibility the character can be saved. I'll just do it. It'll be a surprise. "
You have no idea how quickly I clicked on this video
Damn.
That was one narrow back garden.
I would have preferred if Bill had slowly started to lose faith in the Doctor and had become darker. I mean, she was trapped there for at least 10 years with only one person to talk to. I wanted it to kind of be like future Amy in The Girl Who Waited, where she gave up on the Doctor and adjusted to life in that place. It was just not realistic for me that Bill remained the exact same for 10 years. She was away from home, away from friends, away from family, she had little entertainment, she could barely go anywhere...and yet she didn't change at all? Okay... >_>
I feel that there are parts of the finale I feel you'll enjoy but definitely parts you'll dislike.
What did u think about the pre titles? U prob will talk next time about it but just wondering
Your thoughts on Bojack Horseman Season 4?
almost finished it. been trying to go slow and savour it. video in a week or two. Adore it as usual :)
The finalie was my kind of Fun bollocks
It's just such a shame about how meh the doctor falls is after this episode
bill potts, bill potts i waited.
I would have included the Master but not the Simm's incarnation but the Jacobi incarnation working as a doctor onboard the ship
I think he's the most underdeveloped
The ending was like pointless cyber-witterings... You will subscrib! Liek! Liek!
At least Bill didn't end up like Adric.
FOCUS STUART!
The Intro creeps me out
Bro, this was fucking amazing! And hilarious!