+Teron So many missed skillshots right? Like it's not "Darius OP nerf plz," it's learn to hit your combos/skillshots and not sit under tower like a coward and actually hit him.
+maple wings Ironic he is saying that over that last chunk of the video containing that... Thing they thought was ok and in fact got buffed Darius staying in the enemy base and just constantly solo'ing the enemy team...
The Deathmare True but the massive healing he can get (up to 30% then you can stack on 20% with SV) makes even proper play pretty damn ridiculous at times, so I still stand by that the guy needs to be taken down some notches
+maple wings You misquoted. He didn't call the Juggernauts being OP as "Fun and exciting." Rather he called this a necessary evil that helps keep the game fun and exciting. Once they get the Juggernauts balanced out the game will hopefully be more diverse or at the least, different and still fun to play. Thus his argument.
+Jellyfrosh IMO its easier just to run Jax. Doesn't matter which lane...his kit is made to basically be used constantly with no punishment (in comparison to most of the skill-shot, highly punished failure chars these days) unless, of course, you don't use his abilities every 5 seconds. It requires micromanagement of where he stands and when to hit which button (just kidding, just mash QWER in solo queue you'll do fine) but, otherwise, you just can't really miss. Darius tries to dunk? Counterattack DOJ, Darius doesn't try to dunk? Jumpstrike AND activate Counterattack midair while empowering it with W SUPER HADOUKEN DOJ.
+RaffoPhantom I'm actually glad they can't autoban right from the beginning now...it makes it a lot easier for people to actually run their main and/or the new OP char Riot wants you to pay for since, y'know, they can't be autobanned so easily now. Sure it'll make pay-2-plays even harder to deal with but that's the Riot way :D
Having broken champs is not perfect imbalance. Perfect imbalance is : "A destroys B, B destroys C, C destroys A". The juggernauts are not in a logic of perfect imbalance.The juggernauts (and this one specific item we used to call atma but we now call titanic hydra) make the whole game completely broken. Currently, the meta is driven by : A) Junglers who optimize the devourer. B) Juggernauts with heavy tanky stats but for some reason they still do a shitload of (true) dmg. C) ADCs who can kite juggernauts (Kalista/Vayne/...) And for the first two, there is little to no counterplay available. Devourer ? Invade early as devourer alone is weak. Juggernauts ? Kite them ? Kite a garen means using 3 to 4 controls on him. Pretty much a whole team worth of cc. Adcs will, or so it seems, always get crushed by an approximately fed assassin.
+Adrien Bellaiche I am a Kalista main and i can tell you, until late game with tons of attack speed you can't kite garen. He has stupid amount of speed with being able to kill you in 1 combo which is op. He is too tanky for me to kill him unless i get some help from my team. Garen(skarner, darius and morde are easy to kite) is a tank, i shouldn't be able to kill him but hell he shouldn't be able to kill me. He should be able to take with q about 200 dmg e full 500 dmg tops and ult 800 dmg tops which i can survive. The problem in the game is that there is too much dmg. Ap carry shouldn't be able to kill you in one combo which they can when they get 2 items. But if you do this you must reduce lifesteal and dmg from an adc so that apc would have a chance of killing you, but then you should nerf tanks so someone could actually kill them. Assassins should be the only champs that can kill you in 1 combo but with huge cds. Champions like zed should be able to kill you only when they have ult in this case. And you pull this off by giving him 150 s cooldown on ult. Bruisers will suffer tankines and dmg reduces too. This will make a game a bit slower but it won't be frustrating to play at all. It will require much more skill and even more tactical play. CC durations for some champions like morgana q or Leona overall cc should be reduced too. If they want to leave so much burst in the game then removing champions like annie with no counter play would be the solution. Even some items. This way you would need at least some skill like in lux case to hit your skills or hit your stun so you have a easy land on your other skills. This will be frustrating too but much less than now. But your perfect imbalance theory is right and that is the exact thing i explained. The problem is that you have devourer junglers and juggernauts that are dominating and even kalista and vayne without late game can't kite them with at least some help. In late game kalista has attack speed so she can make it and vayne has low cd tumble combined with ult and true dmg so she can find her way too. But 80% of the games don't get to late so this is not fair.
Kristian Vukajlovic I used to play assassins a lot (i'm more jungler runeglaive/devourer nowadays), and i can tell you, that if you don't have at least a randuin, a crit can remove 50 to 75% hp, and trust me it's scary. Kalista is one of the very close circle of adcs who can play without crits, so assassins works kinda well against her. The main issue with juggs atm is that they have everything. Tankiness, TRUE DMG, gapclosers/mobility (skarner w/e/r, garen q, darius e, fiora q, ....), damage per second, and finishers (garen/darius R). Gragas had the same issue when they transformed him from a Ap ranged midlaner into a melee tank with %maxhp dmg. You talked about leona & annie. I think they are both balanced. Leona doesn't have disengage nor dmg, she's all about her ccs in engaging. When your team is behind as a Leona, it's just about your ult. Annie is all about flash-stun-burst. But she has 0 escape. And if she gets behind or has no flash, she is an easy target. Both have little to no counterplay, but they don't have any unpredictable mechanic. Leona will only ult->e->q to engage a tf. Annie will only flash-stun-ult to engage a tf. They have nothing else. It's not like a riven, nidalee, ekko, yasuo, who can dash almost everywhere, relocate themselve every few seconds with few to no cost nor limitations. I honestly think the game was in an almost balanced state before the juggs reworks. Just tune up a little the unplayed champs to give them back their popularity, and we should be good.
+Adrien Bellaiche I agree with you, but why i think you should remove annie and leona and so on. They should be removed because you cna take a champion and totally outplay them without being able to do anything or you are just going to die without being able to do anything about it. I know how to exploit their weaknesses but i wanna be able to play with any champion against any champion. I understand some champions should have an upper hand. But for example when i play fizz i can wreck annie without her being able to do much about it. Maybe just when she has flash she can do something but usually she can't handle me. But when i play Katarina or Ahri for example i can either def and let her out farm me or tie in farm and feed her badly. Without a gank with this champions it is impossible to fight her. But for example when i play fizz vs lb, i have the advantage, but if she is really good unless i am better than her i will lose.
+Ender Jay He was, having good and viable counterplay and good strenghts, but now he's totally overpowered. And he is arguably the weakest of the 5 juggernaut reworks(fiora, morde, garen, darius and skarner) after skarner, since he got nerfed.
vincent schuurhof He is totally overpowered now. I've played him a lot, since I liked him before the rework. I'm platinum 1, was diamond last season, but haven't played ranked too much.
+darkwasabi2 Riot nerfed WW so hard BECAUSE HE WAS THE BEST FUCKING JUNGLER BAR NONE AT THE TIME! BY A LARGE MARGIN! Even better than fucking Skarner. As for the nerfs to Devourer, it's a Cinderhulk situation. If nobody is playing any other type of jungler then obv Devourer is the most fucking powerful enchantment in the game. Literally in the time between Sated Devourer's release and it's nerf almost every game I played had a Warwick in it, and the side with Warwick usually won even when the other team had Skarner. Also, everyone was using Devourer and Devourer junglers. Literally nothing else.
***** Yeah, because devourer enchantment always has been the worst, until they introduced Sated at which point suddenly Warwick is on top of the jungle again DESPITE the nerfs you previously mentioned because he could sustain through every fucking thing as long as he keeps attacking (once he completes sated). The thing is, nobody played Warwick because Azir was a thing by then.
***** Hey, +5 AD on Warrior. Maybe AD Kayle (as a jungler) will make a come back. I personally never played a Warwick game and always hated being against a Warwick because I like playing Cinderhulk junglers, and most Cinderhulk junglers can't duel him. Ever. Under any circumstances, so he'd just counter jungle me to death until he hits level 6 and I'd be like level 4 maybe. Obviously he's probably right now the worst jungler in the game, but he's got his uses I guess.
***** Umm, this scenario you brought up as an example already happened. Only in reverse order. You see, before Cinderhulk was a thing Sejuani and Amumu were still good enough junglers on their own merits that they could be played, then they introduced the broken as hell Cinderhulk and suddenly those two became THE junglers to play, my personal favorite of the two Sejuani in particular. Then they nerfed Cinderhulk and then they, twice I might add, nerfed Sejuani's W's damage despite that basically being the point of picking Sejuani. They also did other things, trying to make her more based on her CC and they sort of did, but their justification to me as someone who played a lot of her even before she was the thing to be (now nobody plays her once again) the reasons felt really dumb to me. As for Warwick though he's always been in this weird place. Either he's really strong and really popular because of the difficulty of the jungle camps making his sustain very powerful, or he's completely worthless because his sustain isn't that big of a deal anymore. That's the reason they nerfed his AoE attack speed buff so hard, because almost nobody values that spell much. They only value his sustain and his ultimate. Personally I think just like with the Volibear rework they promised for early 2014, I think Riot is holding off on Warwick's because of his roller coaster popularity through the last year or two.
Probably the biggest reason why it's theoretically impossible to balance a game is because of a variable that no game developer can alter. Player skill.
I dont understand why riot thought it would be smart to give darius a heal. He was perfectly fine before and I had a nice win rate with him before the rework. Darius literally now only needs a black cleaver and build all tank items and you will see him doing the most damage in game. Whats worse is in teamfights hes unkillable now. I was 1 v 4 fighting all of them. All I had to do was Q and im back to half health or more. Hella pathetic. Thank god in my elo all juggernauts are banned (Gold 3). I hope its the same in higher elos?
+TheGamingg33k in higher elos the bans are always the same: skarner , morde, darius, fiora, gangplank most of the time unless someone forgets about him and one filler, usually a strong meta pick like elise, a gamble ban if you think a main is on the other team, or the obnoxious riven
+TheGamingg33k darius is not frequently banned in diamond and above because its actually not that hard to play against him , seriously , he is not unkillable at all and if you would learn how to play / pick against him riot wouldnt nerf him till hes useless (im sure they will do )
Der Schnitzelklopfer See I would agree with that, but even riot has said they fucked up on the juggernaut patch. Go read some red posts on surrender@20. They are actually nerfing him next patch I believe.
The issue with Riot's logic for balance is that instead of implementing a small change and seeing if the improvement to balance is good enough, they implement multiple bigger changes and completely overdo it. Take the implementation of cinderhulk for example. They buffed cinderhulk and nerfed warrior at the same time, thus killing warrior and making cinderhulk even more grossly overpowered than it would have been. Also, look at these juggernauts - they simultaneously uberbuffed all 4 of these champions and introduced multiple new items that synergise with these champions' kits and cover their weaknesses. This is why they're overpowered, and as soon as the next patch comes out, where they inevitably gut the numbers on their kits AND ruin the new items, they will disappear from the meta most likely. Baby steps are what is needed in balance changes but Riot doesn't seem to get that. Also, claiming that the changes they make are to make the game more "fun" pretty much belittles players. Players will have more fun if they feel like they're playing on an even level with their opponent, and if they want to have the odds swung in their favour dramatically, League, and all other MOBA's, are probably the wrong games for them.
League of Legends is a fun game? Did you drink as a fetus? Look, I love League of Legends (I drew Veigar for my avatar, so :/), but only as a point of creation. It's interesting to see the characters and lore of the game, and its fandom and fanon is well-deserved in that regard, but as a game, it's one of the most dismal things I've played. A 30+ minute game without drop-in-drop out that revolves requires teamwork with random people in a complete crap shoot who, since this is the internet, are mostly likely either stupid, toxic, or some hellish combination of both (so much for removing RNG mechanics, Riot), and boiling down to: 20 minutes of farming and the rest of the game wandering around the map and fighting people you happen to come across, and receiving punishment up the ass by anonymous jerks most likely you've been assigned to call your "team," a development team that's constantly focusing on addressing minute complaints without even addressing the much larger, more serious ones, in a game that's so deep in mechanics, making itself so fucking hard to balance that I firmly believe will never, ever, EVER be balanced even if the game keeps getting updated for the next century. I love the game only as a venue for ideas (Kindred looks fucking awesome!), but as a game itself, it can fist itself. I quit long before Dunkey did so, so I've gotten a pretty objective overview of it. I love League of Legends. But it's a bad game, and not in the enjoyable way. There's no dancing around that fact.
+Number Nine its still the most played game in the world so something about it has to be fun. The only thing that is not fun is the community. Also I dont know what u consider being balanced. Because there has never and there will never be a perfectly balanced game, because there will always be a certain meta.
Stego1819 That's like saying the no. 3 song right now is a Justin Beiber song, so something about it has to be good. That's because Riot is appealing to what is called the "lowest common denominator," in that it attempts to appeal to everybody of any potential audience ever. Here's a few pitfalls however: 1) You cannot make a giant blanket game for an audience only to say you want to make something specific for a specific audience. As a result, a lot of things appealing to the LCD lose a lot of their artistic integrity for MONEY." 2) Gaining a larger audience on the internet is kind of a crap idea, because if you've played any game of LoL, a lot of the people on the internet can be dicks to each other. 3) IT'S A COMMUNITY GAME. If the community sucks in a game that requires you to interact with said community BY NATURE IN ALL OF ITS GAMEPLAY, it's a bad game. 4) Certain meta my ass. We just got juggernauts in the top lane that are utterly crushing any other reason to play anything else, tanks are going down the crapper, and we just got a rework of a caster mage meant to be a bot lane APC and Riot's losing ideas to make right-clicking interesting, so the next ADC is a jungler. Not to say LoL CAN'T be fun, but it's not worth putting up with all this other shit for those rare gleams of hope.
+Number Nine THe only real point which can make lol not fun to play is your point 3. Lol IS a team game, but this can be completely eliminated y playing it in 5 man premade groups. Those games have ALWAYS been the most fun for me. I play alone as well, but forming your own team before starting the game will always result in a much better experience, because as many of my friends might say, I am useless if I don't get my mid lane (not "useless", no where near as useful). As for the juggernauts, yeah they're annoying, but I really think their strength is over rated. However I might just be saying that simply because my main picks tend to counter them quite nicely (a particular blue bird comes to mind).
Garen is fucking broken. Let me tell you why: -Extremely hard to kill once he gets a few tanky items (especially warmogs + visage ) Not to mention W passive -I mean,yeah he can be kited but bc movement speed and q? -% True damage with e and r. (I mean,whose idea was this?) -Low cooldowns,manaless + silence = OP -So,yeah. Late game if he makes it alive in teamfights with just a sliver of health,no fucking problem! 10 seconds later he'll be at full hp again,ready once more to make your life miserable!
4:43 and yes that is true. If the game was perfectly balanced there would be no meta game, but a lot of different strategies, like in Starcraft. However, even tough the game is a lot of fun, imo I don't think it is with so many powerpicks. Sure we can ban the Juggernauts, but then Shyvanna, Master Yi, Fiora remain playable. I don't mind having to deal with "God tier" meta picks, but playing agaisnt a powerpick is just not fun at all. Also, I don't think Juggernauts should be able to deal that amount of dmg, the funny thing about tanks was that they were unkillable, but dealt little dmg, they didn't have burst like Darius or Garen. That is even worse than assasins from last season.
JEREMIEEEHHHHH!!!! Thank you for hearing the outro of your vids and knowing more about the band "deluxe".Now it is one of my fav bands to hear and nice vids too...big up from Romania!!!
+Peanut i agree it is not fun anymore. i have been getting very angry in my games when before i rarely ever raged. i dont rage in chat i just rage to myself about somthings
+blep “amensentis” blop I have found the game alot more fun now. It just feels more skill based when it's something with obvious counter play that is op. (darius is pretty easy to kite so is garen)
A counters B counters C counters A. That's perfect imbalance. garen darius skarner and morde shit on everyone else is riot not caring when they balance things.
+jpz719 Its impossible to balance a game as vast and mechanically intensive as a MOBA straight to this system, but its incredibly important to always use it as your frame work. Riot seems to have went "its impossible to balance to the A>B>C system, so we're not gonna do it at all" You cant throw off the balance the way they've been doing it with Juggernauts and how they did it with assassins back when they were unbeatable. A game unbalanced so that things are unbeatable is not fun - period. Should it be hard to kill a juggernaut? Yes, thats the point of a Juggernaut. Should a juggernaut be able to 1v5 and win because they vamp/regen too much, too quickly, while dealing an obtuse amount of damage and not being able to be juggled around by supports/disablers because of high tenacity? No. Thats not a part of "perfect imbalance" (a phrase that should never be used in the positive when referring to league anyway) thats just broken. Right now all the recipe for victory in LoL is: "build health/regen and armor" Thats not fun for anyone. Riot you have an entire pantheon of champs for people to play and use - stop focusing on one type, any amount of tunnel vision you get in the development process will lead to the state the game is in now: Not enjoyable.
+Ívan Skelfilegi Go download steam and then download a game called DOTA2. There is literally no reason to complain that Riot, the people who actually copied Dota/dota2, would actually make things other than cosmetics free. Dota has better graphics, more characters, a MUCH larger prize for the world championship, and overall a better feel for most. Everything you want already exists in a completely better game platform. Don't get me wrong...I use to love and still kinda like playing League of Legends...but they're not going to be able to beat Dota at it's own game. This is why they use runes and attract losers who like to spend money to pretend they have "skill" just like on Facebook games.
theyve said that they will do More of these reworks of a specific group of Champions ( just like the juggernauts) but i dont know who theyre aiming for next
There should be a tankbuster class. You know, the more health, armor and magic resist an enemy has, the more damage the tankbuster deals, this to prevent from deleting squishies in one hit.
A good passive for a champion like that would be damage absorption, like for example, if an ADC attacks you you get like a 15% resistance to all damage (except for true damage).
Yeah sure, having really silly bs in your kit is fun for the person playing that champ, but not for the other 5 players on the enemy team. It's no fun when I'm against a Zed and he can literally do whatever he wants with no consequences. Fail an execute with ult? Vanish back to safety, because fuck it.
+randomintrestsperson As a zed main, i DESPISE laning against him. One of the worst things to do in league. If he's good and you didnt choose one of his few counters youre gonna lose lane, no doubt. But as a zed main i can also understand that he's acc really weak right now, and struggles hugely in teamfights and even split pushing in this juggernaught meta. This doesnt excuse his impossible to deal with laning phase, but it helps laning against him if you remember that if you play safe and dont die youre gonna have more of an impact later on
+NotBothered10 Zed is one of those champions that, if you picked the right champ or at least have the right team comp, he won't really be a problem. But, if you picked the WRONG champion . .. you're gonna have a really bad day. xD
Riot when making yasuo... Hmm lets give him a passive that shields dmg... Maybe give him x2 crit chance to...... Lets give him a q that deals a fkton of dmg and has low cd and knockup.... Hmmm maybe a w that deletes everything even ults... An e with infinite mobility... I dont fuckin care anymore lets give him an ultymate that has a fuckton of aoe dmg and lets put it on 29s cd... Legit... So balanced
+Rumpelstinski Mc It's not because you got pwnd by a yasuo once that he's op. He's actually very easy to shut down, you have no idea how he was on release lol
+Louis Blazejczak Then how do you suppose you "shut him down" sense it's so easy. Do you want me to play rammus and pray to god he can't get his ult off so he doesn't get the armor pen from it and just shred me.
The game was in its best moments after a year from its release. Now it's nothing but an unbalanced and unplayable piece of crap. Give up playing this; stop wasting your life in a game which isn't even fun to play. Being fun is the last thing you can ask for. League of Legends doesn't provide any fun at all. This situation won't get better, Riot is too busy releasing new champions and easy-cash skins to fix their shit. Neither new maps, nor gamemodes. Only moneygrab content. Broken game; and shitty developers. Better leave.
You say they can't use PBE to balance the game, but they could at least try. An indicator to something being balanced is better than just sending it Live. They currently don't use PBE for balance, only for testing bugs. It's like a massive waste of a tool. There's also the fact that the Community usually have an idea of when something is Weak or OP. Obviously not all the Community is right but if a vast majority say 'Garen will be OP with the next Patch', I think they're going to be right. I hate the fact that Riot only listen to the LCS at the moment when they only play at a fixed 'professional level'; they don't play at a standard below this which the majority of the Community do, so why only listen to them?
K9 Tirion That's like saying mercury is safe in comparison to plutonium. Technically true, but still they're toxic as hell and you wouldn't want to stick your hand near either.
One simple thing that would've baind-aid the problem by a lot is just not leaving Dead Man's Plate after the GP event, since it just a stupidly awesome item for the juggernaughts, since it helps them overcome the "I-cant-catch-up" problem they have.
"Interesting abilities and interactions"...like the interaction between that 3rd Morde Q proc and his opponent giving him the ability to one shot them.
sorry, gotta disagree entirely with you. Riots balance philosophy is utter trash. In-fact you point out exactly why it is "They focus on making fun game-play above all else. This is why champs released with broken and over powered kits, because they are fun to play, but then balanced to fit the meta" .... Epic fail logic. Because those kits are NOT fun to play against. Fun to play doesn't balance not fun to play against. Back in Season 1 and 2 champions were not released with broken, over loaded kits that could do everything and anything like they are now, with virtually no resource management required, insanely low cd's, and tanky ass stats no matter what. The game was relatively balanced. Both Mages and melee needin to balance mana, Mages more so, but in return as balance they did more damage. This created a fun environment, both to play in and against. They also did not focus on the "meta". Allowing champions to go in several different lanes and still be alright, creating unique, and interesting games every day. Then they started releasing entirely broken, resource less champions loaded to the brim with CC, damage, tankyness, and again, no resource.. So much infact they needed to buff mages mana regen, drop the cost of spells across the board, and introduce mega mana regen items for common items in mage builds just to stay competitive. So much so again, that now "Oh no, I need to worry and balance my mana" said no one ever in the last 2 years. Now even champions with mana costs need not worry about their mana.. almost ever, except a few select mages, or very very early game, melee champions with mana might as well have it removed entirely themselves since they never hit the bottom of their mana pool ever... Now Riot focuses on nothing but releasing bs patches in most cases to keep the game "interesting" Not even fun.. just interesting, so pepole who think they are trying to balance, or hopefully htis patch will be better than next, will come back and keep playing, while they continue to flood the champion pool with increasingly more broken and annoying champs to fight against. This is why in and of itself the community is as toxic as it is. Fighting most of the champions you go up against is a pain in the ass and not fun for many people, some people compensate this by not taking the game nearly as seriously as they should, only pissing off other people on their team, snow balling into a toxic environment, all because Riot balance team suck at everything they do. "The meta" only exists because Riot enforces it, regardless of what they say. It's apparently obvious when patch after patch for the last 4 years always reflects the E games that are going on, and directly nerfs certain mechanics being played in those games, and champions being balanced by professional league, rather than the player base itself. Again adding even more toxicity to the over all community due to this once again incompetent way of balancing. Then you have of course have the runes and masteries which just add even more problems to the balance aspect... League isn't a good game. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy it. I play it everyday. But I'm not so dissillusioned to think its a good and balanced game. Over all the game is pretty trash. I enjoy it because the art, and fluidity of the controls is better than any other moba, so I continue to play it.. But again... It's not a good game, because it's anything but balanced, and most of the time not even all that fun truly, especially with the toxic community.
***** I concur and agree, though I'd like to point out I was implying that champs today are even more overloaded and OP than they were before. I never said it never used to be like that, I remember when Jax, Tryn, Yi, and Xin were released. I remember when thornmail was trash, and when tehre was virtually no counter to them anywhere in the game. I remember when the Dodge mechanic was in the game with dodge runes, and those champs could stack dodge % chance and just wail the fuck out of everyone as you miss ove rhalf your shit. What I'm saying is that its even worse today than before. Before it was a few champs here and there released in that state, now its damn near every fucking one released, minus a very select few. But even those few that aren't have extremely annoying gameplay and mechanics revolving around them. But yes, I agree with everything else as well. The game of League is a wonderous mash of, poor choices, ignorance, arrogance, and abhorrent and obvious "We don't give a fuck, deal with it", and I'm not talking about the players either.
+Eternally Angelic why balance to the meta?! That only gives retards MORE of an excuse not to play the non meta champions cause they don't utterly counter and dominate their role.
+Jean Paul Blanchette Except she does no damage unless she can pull a spirit or ult a bunch of champs. She has to choose either damage or tank if she wants to ult teams like that. Garen and voli are stupid tanks that do a shit ton of damage, are fast as fukk, and have health regen BEFORE buying any items.
+Josh Zink Not entirely true. She still can dish crazy damage while still being remarkably tanky (speaking from experience). Her soul pulling skill is just imo unfair, more so in ARAM. There are other things too but you get the point.
the fundamental fault with juggernauts is that they took a design archetype they accidentally created in nasus, but didn't respect it's primary balancing factor. nasus can't force you to fight him. his only CC is a slow that offers a lot of response time. if nasus is killing you, it's because something else is enabling him. whether that's a harder CC from someone else or him threatening an objective, something outside of you and nasus is forcing you to get clubbed in the face. this principle was most flagrantly ignored with the star problem child of darius. because of apprehend, you cannot interact with him and hope to escape unless you are a very select group of champions. this is also supported by garen being largely ignored. ya his numbers were(or maybe still are) a little off, but he maintained the basic idea of "really scary *IF* you try and take him head on"
Playing as a juggernaut seems to do a good job of making the player feel good by playing out a power fantasy, but the way they've gone about it and their hesitation to undo the pick/ban status of these champs is unfortunate. First, so many champs were reworked around the same time (Garen, Skarner, Darius, Mordekaiser, Gangplank, Fiora), and they were each left in a fairly strong state that picking and banning champs were almost not a choice, and unranked games on Summoner's Rift were full of them. Considering how four of those reworks are also common top lane picks, top lane has become a bit of a one-sided competition unless both players were playing reworked characters or both were playing character that haven't been reworked. With there still being a lot of power in other specific parts of the game such as sated devourer being able to make someone an unstoppable monster outside of teamfights, Vayne supposed to be filling the role of a great late game champ but also being both strong and safe early game as well, Thresh being picked every game because he's got a great kit and is able to work well with nearly any team composition, the game's recent state seems to have changed from "do what you can/like and you can make it work" to "learn to use certain strategies or you'll have a tough time against those that did". Riot has also stated that they tend to not like the state of things when a champion gets hard-countered in game, yet the numbers and mechanics on the reworked champions makes them able to hard counter certain champions with very little chance of winning outside of constant ganks. Riven, Nasus, and many other melee top laners do not have the kits nor stats able to win lane against certain 1v1 lane matchups now that the changes have gone through, letting the smallest lead given to your opponent make them win lane and not allowing their opponent to so much as kill minions. These incredibly durable characters with high damage now also snowball like assassins, meaning multiple champions would feel forced to use all of their crowd control and burst on a single durable character. I remember when Mordekaiser was a top laner and people would say things like "he had a lot of damage which also gave him lots of durability, that's why he can't be mobile or have cc", and yet the reworks seem to say that having damage, tankiness, and cc is ok as long as your only means of mobility is tier 2 boots and Deadman's Plate. If every champion was like this I could see the game being a spectacle, but with a pool of champs both too big to ban yet too small to make feel fair to players that don't play those champs, playing the game can feel much more repetitive, snowbally, and irritating than it used to. I can only hope that once the big leagues finish up Riot is able to address some of the balance concerns that have come up so that I can go back to playing on Summoner's Rift again. Unfortunately though I can see Riot still being very careful with nerfs after they're done, making these champs balanced somewhere towards the end of November. I can only play ARAM and Dominion so many times before the RNG in ARAM and me realizing Riot considers Dominion a mistake makes me want to step away from League for a week. I was really hoping I'd be able to jump from platinum last season to diamond this season, but because I don't feel like learning one of Riot's favorite ten champs at the moment, I guess my season will end as platinum again. TLDR - Riot did too much too fast and is now too slow to nerf. Juggernauts break certain old balance principles while not even being the only problem cases this patch.
If you have decent ping(and mechanics) *consider this* to counter the bruisers toplane. I was surprised. Exhaust-Flash-Ashe with this build: Start: Boots, 3 healthpots, 1 mana pot. . . Start with Volley then max q>w>e Buy order: .1) Tear .2) Phage .3) Manamune .4) Black Cleaver .5) Zerker's Furor .6) Youmuu's .7) Blood Thirster .8) Last Whisper Really good against Darius. Don't use against Renekton or Garen. Personally, still worked for me against Riven, but it's iffy.
this is a good video and i hope your position on this issue gets more recognition. frankly i'm getting really tired of the whole juggernauts op circlejerk.
Problem with Riot is this that they wanna have 3 carry lanes. They want tanky carries on top, AP carries and countering them assassins on mid, and most important AD carries with their support on bot + jungler helping those carries. The problem is that by putting 3 ''tanky carries'' top they destroy the whole concept because champions with no mistake-punish, tanky and with high damage are always and will be always OP. Right now Riot should either add 2 more bans to draft mode or nerf 10 champions.
The imbalance is to be expected in a game with more than a hundred characters, though. Hell, even in games with less than twenty have balance trouble. Compare League to Street fighter III: Third Strike. League has over a hundred characters and struggles to stay balanced even with the addition of patches. Capcom released two versions of Third Strike, which has only nineteen playable characters, twenty-one if you count Shin Akuma and Gill. The most popular version of the game is the version that contained glitches and bugs because they made for a more competitive atmosphere. Urien's unblockable setups, for example, were removed in the latter version. The thing is, these setups were notoriously hard to pull off and only the best of the best could do them anyway. League has a number of unbalanced champions, but so did Third Strike. The difference between them is that Riot can patch their balance troubles, Capcom couldn't (at the time). In Third Strike we have Chun-Li with her crazy neutral game and Yun with his ability to build a full bar of meter over the course of a single combo, then pop Genei-Jin to keep you airborne for a hefty chunk of your life. How do you counter both of them? Don't let Chun get a solid poke distance from you, punish her with rush down tactics and pressure. Get into the Chun player's head and parry what they least expect. Countering Yun means out-playing the supposedly un-out-playable. He's fast, you have to be faster. He hits like a truck, you have to hit like a train. In both instances, Makoto is a strong pick against them due to her heavy-hitting, high-pressure game. My point is that no game is perfectly balanced, but they can be "perfectly imbalanced" as Jeremy said. Playing against the broken champions isn't really fun until you can figure out how to exploit their weaknesses. Once those weaknesses are made clear, they are no longer overpowered. That is, until the next patch that buffs them/nerfs the champs that counter them.
the thing is that a balanced game makes the game interesting for all players, one of the big mistakes with the juggernauts was that their biggest weakness are kiting champions, but then again, how many kiting champions do you see going top against a Darius?
I'd say with the juggernauts now its a terror top lane, but it doesn't affect ranked because most people ban the reworked champs (including fiora). The only one that doesn't get banned regularly is gangplank. So it is what it is. That last clip of Darius was just painful to watch how he did that.
Yes, some champions have some things about their kits that aren't balanced, although i feel riot is putting to much focus onto kit power, and away from item power. In that base damage is more prevalent than scaling damage, and that the result is games where the lane or whole game has been decided by the load screen, given roughly even competency. It's become less about playing interaction correctly, more about picking the champions who have the smallest window to be completely stomped or have the largest window to faceroll over anyone else.
Hey I'd like to precise what you say about some elements being purposefully unbalanced : When you try to get near the notion of a "balanced" game, you will need to approach every character to a standard so you can compare each one to the same standard, and then each standard to another, theorically. But the thing is, for the game to be fun you need to have a diversity of options, which means each champion having its own identity into the game, not just to be placed on a scale of power inside its own standard role group (The most OP tanks aka juggernauts, the OP toplaners or junglers aka tanks, the unplayable underpowered junglers aka pre-rubeglaive mages). Urgot for example can't really be placed in the category of tanks, nor in the one of ADCs, because his gameplay includes both antagonistic playstyles : he is just Urgot. The meaning of Riot when they balance champions is to make every one of them "a viable option, that can be picked if it fits the team's needs, or counters well another champion, or just pleases the summoner" , while on the other side, pro-players will always be thinking "what is the objectively strongest option in this/any case "
I'm not 100% on board with the "imbalance keeps the game interesting and fun." When the game gets to these states, I often just stop playing and wait it out, because you have to play broken things to win, and playing broken champs is easy, and easy games don't equate to fun with me. Part of what makes some of Riot's best designed champs so great is the challenge of working their mechanics perfectly. Your opponent has counterplay opportunities, you have outplay opportunities, and when you get a kill using that kit, you won because you knew your opponent better, not because you clicked on them harder.
How do i feel? i feel like not only some champions or roles should be fun every role should be fun. because of the juggernaut update 1 out of 10 people every game will be having fun unless you like being carred or having every kill taken from you. the tanky Juggernaut meta is not just unbalanced it is broken it changes the way the game is the supposed to be played. idk if its just me but in my opinion it is not ok to be able to have 2000 hp and still be able to 3 shot the Enemy team. Honestly it might be a better idea for me to just play a juggernaut in the mid lane because once im lvl 10 you can not kill me unless i am majorly out of place.
actualy some champs were balanced on release but ppl were like "hurdur dunno how to play against it yet so lets call it OP and overnerf it". examples are Ekko and Yasuo.
+NightcoreAnimeLoLAssassinPlayer You're kidding, right? Yasuo had such a low win rate on release... and Ekko's numbers were ridiculously high. His ult has no counterplay to it, so it wasn't fair the amount of burst/healing it did. You're just a butthurt ekko fuckboi.
+WIZA327 ekkos ult is so easy to deal with on terms of not getting hit by it for damage. maybe for escapes yeah, but if you can't pay attention to the little shadow thing then that's your fault for getting that giant burst of damage
yOU tHOT no duh. I'm talkin about being able to punish him for over extending. You can catch him out, but all he has to do is ult away, and before the nerfs, he could stick around and fight anyway even if he was out of position and possibly get something out of making a bad decision.
+NightcoreAnimeLoLAssassinPlayer Yasuo on release was the most overpowered champion to be released in a while. Have you seen him? 800 Shield on the passive with a W which gave you passive flow? He's perfectly fine right now , but don't go high and say he was balanced at first because he clearly wasn't. Ekko is the same , an ultimate with 120% AP ratio which heals you on 0 mana cost? What the fuck? Again , he's fine now. You can no longer be brainded , spam skills and then escape with the ult even if you have 10 mana. Finally you have to use your brain.
IMO The reworks were decent, they could be toned down but they did manage to capture the essence of the characters (darius has always been about dunking every one same as a katarina or a yi) however the problem with the juggernauts is that at the same time they updated them they gave them a shit ton of new tools that break them. Stereks prevents burst, dead man gets over that pesky kiting problem, and titanic gives them more damage for being tankier, which is why I thought they removed atmas in the first place. If we had only the reworks w/o the new items darius and garen would not be broken like they are. Strong probably, but not broken
The system of perfect imbalance is a necessary evil, and though it hurts my soul playing against these juggernauts, it is understandable why they were introduced into the game (kind of). Another thing we have to consider is that the game is largely balanced for higher level play, ie. competitive, and so mechanics that may seem facerolly at low levels of play are countered quite easily in the competitive scene. Using Riven, everyone's favorite hate-magnet, as an example, you never see her in competitive play, though she is one of the best champions for snowballing and being uncontrollable in lower tiers.
Hi, can you make some tips for twisted treeline ranked teams? Just started play with friends ranked and wanted to know some advice, but there is no new video about treeline
When a game usually does this, I feel like it's okay. Having these sort of unbalances, albeit sometimes frustrating to play against, create a changing landscape that doesn't really get boring. In most competitive games, we have METAs, which I heard stands for 'Most Effective Tactic Available.' Pros in any game are going to play what works the best, right now being the juggernauts, a couple patches ago being the tanks. If it were all just balanced, then the game would be kind of gray. No champion would ever get their spotlight, as all champions eventually do. I'd be okay with assassin metas, juggernaut metas, tank metas, support metas, ADC metas, as long as it keeps the game from going stale.
The Juggernaut update is easily one of the worst updates brought to league, brining with it the highest ever win rate on a champion the game has ever seen. The HIGHEST EVER.
+Tyler Mulford You must have been against pretty bad skarners or been lucky with your team actually warding... First of all are his pre 6 ganks which can be pretty strong considering his speed and the range of his e. then he needs to aa you once in order to stun you. That makes it easier for the team he is on to chain cc. Then his ultimate, even if you build an item to stop it (quicksilver sash, Mikaels Crucible) your teammates sometimes wont. Then there is the CD on all his abilities which are pretty low, even when fighting outside of his passive. He has a lot of problems now. I've never usually have too many problems with skarner either because I build around him or know how to counter him but my team ALWAYS has problems with him.
So basically, make it fun for the person playing the champ and the team getting carried because of some insane buff or change, and make it hell for the team fighting that champion. This video wraps around the general idea of imbalances and I respect the perspective Jeremy has on the topic but as for the specifics, there are things with certain kits (such as Darius or Morde) that can be solved with scaling nerfs or ability tweaks, I just find that Riot often lacks the ability to see certain things and that their methods of balancing are questionable. While there are methods of counter play to these "OP champs", sometimes games are ruined because of the inability of team mates being able to utilize those counter play tactics often involving a lot of coordination and focus that they simply can't pull off due to the enemy team having such a lead from their powerhouse of a champion on their team. This is my view of the situation, I've gathered my opinions from being in games with these changes in play, and no not just on first release, I understand it is hectic when things are first changed, but I'm talking about when things are crazy, they stay crazy, become part of the game and we just have to "deal with it". I'll agree that the League community can be a toxic one, and I'm not trying to be part of that with this post, but if a large group of people have the same negative opinion on specific things something must be wrong. Thanks for reading, good luck out there summoners! :)
maybe if they released the change on a server where a players from all skill ranges play there to test the patches OH WAIT ITS CALLED THE PBE BUT RIOT NEVER LISTENS
+John Green PBE is for Bug testing. Balance Changed get placed on there to see if it is bugged or not. Nobody on the PBE complains to Riot that "This is OP! Please nerf!" Because it's never on there long enough to have an effect on that servers Meta because EVERYONE plays it. It's like if you played a game of Mirror mode and tried to balance the champions based on what they did. I play Darius versus... Darius. Ok, let's see what's broken! Well... His laning phase seems pretty... Average. His team fight is pretty cool and exactly what we wanted it to be! Let's look at Skarner! Skarner has a really nice clear speed! Let's see how good he is in ganks... He was on par with the other one! That's def not broken!
+John Green The PBE testers and the league boards are the reason the juggernauts are overpowered. Skarner isn't overpowered now, Garen isn't overpowered but the Villain mechanic is bull, Mordekaiser and Darius are broken.
at least in cinderhaulk i knew that 80% of my champ pool was open this juggernaut meta took a massive dump on that. i honestly never raged out in a game till this meta and i have been playing since patch 2.15 when tp revive karthus was a thing
The problem with the Juggernaut update wasn't necessarily that they were overtuned (though they were that, to quite an obscene degree), the problem with the update is that the Balance team seems to think that the best way to make their job manageable is to give every character a thousand and one nobs to balance with: Say, need to nerf Garen? Well we'll just give him a dozen things to do and pop one of them down a peg when it gets problematic. The inherent issue with this philosophy is that, unless your balance team has some amazing metrics to pull from and are data-crunching geniuses, knowing WHERE a problem is becomes impossible. Long story short, the Juggernaut update's great hubris wasn't the objective power they gave the reworked champs (Though again, holy shit were these numbers overtuned as hell), the problem was they made the champions OBSCENELY complex in ways that are both hard to retune when they become problematic and hard to grasp as to why they're a problem: Garen's power spikes that are out of sync with what he's maxing in the increased spin-to-win hits is an example of a problem that, unless you play Garen, you aren't likely to know the cause of but can feel the effects. That and there are just some edge cases where common sense seemed to leave the building, like giving Skarner 100 bonus MS whenever he impales someone. That's just obscene.
When every champion and item is imbalanced, then the game is balanced. For example, make Flash 50s cooldown and can disjoint target spells seems op, but also make Annie's target Q or Darius's targeted R less OP and offer some sort of counter play. I hope you got what i mean. Also, give items have an active that makes you invincible to certain damage, For example, Thornmail will remove it's passive and add an active that makes you incincible to physical damage and reflect a portion of that damage taken to the attackers will add a nice conunter and counter play to AD Carries, AD assassins, like....... watching Death mark kill Zed himself.... This will also make Poppy, Kayle, Tryndamere less OP, but it won't make then useless because they are built in. And i believe these new items will also allows some champions to become viable.
Nice to see a reasonably well thought out vid. Everyone's going to have their own opinions about what is balanced and when X was balanced and Y was OP, but I honestly don't give a fk about any of that (because most people are wrong on such points). The points laid out by Jeremy were actually insightful and mostly correct (excluding certain examples, of course). Good job. P.S. Ditch that awful fkn outro song. Makes the ears bleed so much.
honestly, as someone who loves playing assassins, i hate the juggernaut update. i hate the fact that a garen, that builds only tank items, can kill an adc faster and more reliably than the sort of character that was meant for that exact purpose. but i guess riot just heard way too much of: "this champ is so broken" about katarina and fizz etc. so they decided to make them obsolete, by making tanks better at assassinating than assassins.
my idea why the juggernauts are actually broken : Riot wanted to give the juggernauts an actual ability to stick to the most annoying of adcs (marksmans) and the most annoying of supports. However this made them completly overpowered when they go up against a melee champion instead. for example, morde's q have both a huge amount of damage and a ridicously low cooldown, which makes so even if you go all in at the exact moment en use his 3rd q on a minion, you'll get destroyed, because he will have his q back so early you won't have a single moment where you can outrade him.
The junggernauts were def overpowered, but not as much as everyone says they are IMO. They're certainly meta changing. Garen in particular has minimal CC or utility and no true gap closer or escape despite being melee. He just has raw damage and tankiness. These kinds of champions can't be fought 1v1 in melee range but can be kited and CC'd. They end up being the focus of a teamfight in the same way that ADCs are generally seen as the focus of teamfights in the "meta". Nobody sees the concept of an ADC as overpowered fundamentally though. While they might need to be toned down a bit, I'd like to see juggernauts as a viable carry option. Juggernauts (especially Garen and Morde) are all damage + tankiness with no utility, so they inherently need to have higher raw damage output and tankiness than their alternatives in order to stay viable.
+Pegasus pushing reply tags the person. Also, I agree that juggernauts are ridiculous. They nerfed cinderhulk, but they failed hardcore at killing the tank meta, instead making it worse.
+VengfulDarkness yeah powerful tanks are ok but when they have everything and the health to just jack off on the team and win it gets kinda annoying to even see their splash.
Part of the balancing issue in league is that there are too many champions with similar designs. Darius and Garen, Kennen and Yasuo, alot of adcs fall under this category even after the recent preseason, meaning that the meta is often like "I'm you but better". Now I don't want to start a fanwar but in DOTA, the designs of the heroes are not like in league and are more designed in each hero being unique without a kit similar to someone else and excelling the hero in one area that can be easily countered. This is why the game is alot more balanced than league and why balancing the game is a nightmare
Definitely can't agree to the first one in terms of Juggernauts. The numbers alone are ridiculous, and together with the 3 new items that were designed especially for these juggernauts it was SO obvious that they were going to be insanely op. You can clearly see that in one or two games.
It's not fun when a darius perma slows you with his flash, e, w and dead man's plate as an adc or squishy. And when you are able to kite him, Sterak procs or He heals with Q.
I think the problem with juggernauts is that u cant have a tank do as much damage as a carry. when u can build near full tank and out damage the midlaner/adc ur busted. People always say "don't focus the tank" but what if the tank does the most damage?
I think rito sometimes intentionally go overboard with changes to both change up the meta and experiment with balance. Its probably faster to make a champ OP then nerf it then make it weak so it doesnt see any play and buff it slowly.
0:35 Like Zed - SLIGHTLY below average give him a buff, WAY overpowered give him what ends up being a buff if you play it right u_u - meanwhile Yorrik is allowed to be at the bottom of the totem pole for YET ANOTHER month...
Speaking of juggernauts; Yorick walks into a bar, there is no counter But seriously though I've been playing yorick recently and all the indirect changes have made him pretty viable mid and top
Its really odd that juggernauts only weakness is movement speed really...but garen has his q,Skarner is skarner,darius has his pull (E?) and morde is morde...
The game would be better if every single champions dmg/effectiveness was nerfed by like 25%. It would also better without a select few champs that are cancer to the game (looking at fizz, WW, annie, and yasuo)
![Pointers in C / C++ [Full Course]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zuegQmMdy8M/mqdefault.jpg)
That last clip was just so frustraiting to watch
+Teron So many missed skillshots right? Like it's not "Darius OP nerf plz," it's learn to hit your combos/skillshots and not sit under tower like a coward and actually hit him.
Hey! I'm Jinx! let's run right up to Darius to kill him! :D what can go wrong?
+Teron probs bronze
+vincent schuurhof and u challenger?
+Teron i must admit it was hard to not laugh at that
"Fun and exciting" is not how i describe playing a gainst the juggernauts :/
+maple wings Ironic he is saying that over that last chunk of the video containing that... Thing they thought was ok and in fact got buffed Darius staying in the enemy base and just constantly solo'ing the enemy team...
+Kokurai Senshi That darius did that because my god the other team sucked they missed EVERY single skill shot and hid undertower doing nothing
The Deathmare True but the massive healing he can get (up to 30% then you can stack on 20% with SV) makes even proper play pretty damn ridiculous at times, so I still stand by that the guy needs to be taken down some notches
+maple wings You misquoted. He didn't call the Juggernauts being OP as "Fun and exciting." Rather he called this a necessary evil that helps keep the game fun and exciting. Once they get the Juggernauts balanced out the game will hopefully be more diverse or at the least, different and still fun to play. Thus his argument.
+Kokurai Senshi He was 4 levels higher. Don't always look at the champion, look at the stats.
that Darius was enjoying himself .
how to win LoL solo queue:
step 1: play any of the juggernauts
step 2: ban all the other ones
step 3. you win.
+Jellyfrosh Problem. You can only ban 3.
MrMaxer13 ban the 3 you aren't gonna play then pick the one you didn't ban
+Jellyfrosh suddenly: enemy firstpick and/or banning the fourth
+Jellyfrosh IMO its easier just to run Jax. Doesn't matter which lane...his kit is made to basically be used constantly with no punishment (in comparison to most of the skill-shot, highly punished failure chars these days) unless, of course, you don't use his abilities every 5 seconds. It requires micromanagement of where he stands and when to hit which button (just kidding, just mash QWER in solo queue you'll do fine) but, otherwise, you just can't really miss. Darius tries to dunk? Counterattack DOJ, Darius doesn't try to dunk? Jumpstrike AND activate Counterattack midair while empowering it with W SUPER HADOUKEN DOJ.
+RaffoPhantom I'm actually glad they can't autoban right from the beginning now...it makes it a lot easier for people to actually run their main and/or the new OP char Riot wants you to pay for since, y'know, they can't be autobanned so easily now. Sure it'll make pay-2-plays even harder to deal with but that's the Riot way :D
"The juggernauts are deadly if they can reach you" BITCH THEY HAVE TEAM TO HELP THEM TO CATCH ME RIOT WTF
+kemya ali And u have a team to help you peel
+Rafael Cardinal not in elo hell u get friendzoned All the time, gg.
+kemya ali and all of them except morde have some kind of mechanic to get to you. Especially darius and his stupid buggy pull.
+Platinum Bard They actually fixed his pull so if you leave the hitbox before it goes off, you dont get pulled.
+Platinum Bard or garen with the deadman's plate movespeed+his q. very immobile. so slow
I'm proud to see my Garen plays in this video, thanks for your work! :)
+Stratera MOBA Dora abi seni burada görmek.Beni çok mutlu etti ;)
+Stratera MOBA LELELELELELELELELELEL
+Stratera MOBA nickini görünce çığlık attıydım
Sende bizdensin ;)
Garen "plays" kappa
Having broken champs is not perfect imbalance.
Perfect imbalance is : "A destroys B, B destroys C, C destroys A".
The juggernauts are not in a logic of perfect imbalance.The juggernauts (and this one specific item we used to call atma but we now call titanic hydra) make the whole game completely broken.
Currently, the meta is driven by :
A) Junglers who optimize the devourer.
B) Juggernauts with heavy tanky stats but for some reason they still do a shitload of (true) dmg.
C) ADCs who can kite juggernauts (Kalista/Vayne/...)
And for the first two, there is little to no counterplay available. Devourer ? Invade early as devourer alone is weak. Juggernauts ? Kite them ? Kite a garen means using 3 to 4 controls on him. Pretty much a whole team worth of cc.
Adcs will, or so it seems, always get crushed by an approximately fed assassin.
The patch just right before juggernauts was possibly the most balanced I've ever seen League in quite some time.
well said
+Adrien Bellaiche I am a Kalista main and i can tell you, until late game with tons of attack speed you can't kite garen. He has stupid amount of speed with being able to kill you in 1 combo which is op. He is too tanky for me to kill him unless i get some help from my team. Garen(skarner, darius and morde are easy to kite) is a tank, i shouldn't be able to kill him but hell he shouldn't be able to kill me. He should be able to take with q about 200 dmg e full 500 dmg tops and ult 800 dmg tops which i can survive. The problem in the game is that there is too much dmg. Ap carry shouldn't be able to kill you in one combo which they can when they get 2 items. But if you do this you must reduce lifesteal and dmg from an adc so that apc would have a chance of killing you, but then you should nerf tanks so someone could actually kill them. Assassins should be the only champs that can kill you in 1 combo but with huge cds. Champions like zed should be able to kill you only when they have ult in this case. And you pull this off by giving him 150 s cooldown on ult. Bruisers will suffer tankines and dmg reduces too. This will make a game a bit slower but it won't be frustrating to play at all. It will require much more skill and even more tactical play. CC durations for some champions like morgana q or Leona overall cc should be reduced too. If they want to leave so much burst in the game then removing champions like annie with no counter play would be the solution. Even some items. This way you would need at least some skill like in lux case to hit your skills or hit your stun so you have a easy land on your other skills. This will be frustrating too but much less than now. But your perfect imbalance theory is right and that is the exact thing i explained. The problem is that you have devourer junglers and juggernauts that are dominating and even kalista and vayne without late game can't kite them with at least some help. In late game kalista has attack speed so she can make it and vayne has low cd tumble combined with ult and true dmg so she can find her way too. But 80% of the games don't get to late so this is not fair.
Kristian Vukajlovic
I used to play assassins a lot (i'm more jungler runeglaive/devourer nowadays), and i can tell you, that if you don't have at least a randuin, a crit can remove 50 to 75% hp, and trust me it's scary.
Kalista is one of the very close circle of adcs who can play without crits, so assassins works kinda well against her.
The main issue with juggs atm is that they have everything. Tankiness, TRUE DMG, gapclosers/mobility (skarner w/e/r, garen q, darius e, fiora q, ....), damage per second, and finishers (garen/darius R).
Gragas had the same issue when they transformed him from a Ap ranged midlaner into a melee tank with %maxhp dmg.
You talked about leona & annie. I think they are both balanced.
Leona doesn't have disengage nor dmg, she's all about her ccs in engaging. When your team is behind as a Leona, it's just about your ult.
Annie is all about flash-stun-burst. But she has 0 escape. And if she gets behind or has no flash, she is an easy target.
Both have little to no counterplay, but they don't have any unpredictable mechanic.
Leona will only ult->e->q to engage a tf. Annie will only flash-stun-ult to engage a tf.
They have nothing else.
It's not like a riven, nidalee, ekko, yasuo, who can dash almost everywhere, relocate themselve every few seconds with few to no cost nor limitations.
I honestly think the game was in an almost balanced state before the juggs reworks.
Just tune up a little the unplayed champs to give them back their popularity, and we should be good.
+Adrien Bellaiche I agree with you, but why i think you should remove annie and leona and so on. They should be removed because you cna take a champion and totally outplay them without being able to do anything or you are just going to die without being able to do anything about it. I know how to exploit their weaknesses but i wanna be able to play with any champion against any champion. I understand some champions should have an upper hand. But for example when i play fizz i can wreck annie without her being able to do much about it. Maybe just when she has flash she can do something but usually she can't handle me. But when i play Katarina or Ahri for example i can either def and let her out farm me or tie in farm and feed her badly. Without a gank with this champions it is impossible to fight her. But for example when i play fizz vs lb, i have the advantage, but if she is really good unless i am better than her i will lose.
"Darius is a fair, balanced and skillbased champion"
+Ender Jay Since release, definitely.
+Ender Jay He was, having good and viable counterplay and good strenghts, but now he's totally overpowered. And he is arguably the weakest of the 5 juggernaut reworks(fiora, morde, garen, darius and skarner) after skarner, since he got nerfed.
+Kristin Olsen darius op? are you fucking bronze?!?!
vincent schuurhof He is totally overpowered now. I've played him a lot, since I liked him before the rework. I'm platinum 1, was diamond last season, but haven't played ranked too much.
+Kristin Olsen fiora isn't a juggernaut
Does anyone remember patch 4.20 Warwick with Devourer? Totally lived up to patch's number
+Stanley Fielding You mean WEEDWICK? That shit still works today.
+darkwasabi2 Riot nerfed WW so hard BECAUSE HE WAS THE BEST FUCKING JUNGLER BAR NONE AT THE TIME! BY A LARGE MARGIN! Even better than fucking Skarner. As for the nerfs to Devourer, it's a Cinderhulk situation. If nobody is playing any other type of jungler then obv Devourer is the most fucking powerful enchantment in the game. Literally in the time between Sated Devourer's release and it's nerf almost every game I played had a Warwick in it, and the side with Warwick usually won even when the other team had Skarner. Also, everyone was using Devourer and Devourer junglers. Literally nothing else.
***** Yeah, because devourer enchantment always has been the worst, until they introduced Sated at which point suddenly Warwick is on top of the jungle again DESPITE the nerfs you previously mentioned because he could sustain through every fucking thing as long as he keeps attacking (once he completes sated). The thing is, nobody played Warwick because Azir was a thing by then.
***** Hey, +5 AD on Warrior. Maybe AD Kayle (as a jungler) will make a come back. I personally never played a Warwick game and always hated being against a Warwick because I like playing Cinderhulk junglers, and most Cinderhulk junglers can't duel him. Ever. Under any circumstances, so he'd just counter jungle me to death until he hits level 6 and I'd be like level 4 maybe. Obviously he's probably right now the worst jungler in the game, but he's got his uses I guess.
***** Umm, this scenario you brought up as an example already happened. Only in reverse order. You see, before Cinderhulk was a thing Sejuani and Amumu were still good enough junglers on their own merits that they could be played, then they introduced the broken as hell Cinderhulk and suddenly those two became THE junglers to play, my personal favorite of the two Sejuani in particular. Then they nerfed Cinderhulk and then they, twice I might add, nerfed Sejuani's W's damage despite that basically being the point of picking Sejuani. They also did other things, trying to make her more based on her CC and they sort of did, but their justification to me as someone who played a lot of her even before she was the thing to be (now nobody plays her once again) the reasons felt really dumb to me.
As for Warwick though he's always been in this weird place. Either he's really strong and really popular because of the difficulty of the jungle camps making his sustain very powerful, or he's completely worthless because his sustain isn't that big of a deal anymore. That's the reason they nerfed his AoE attack speed buff so hard, because almost nobody values that spell much. They only value his sustain and his ultimate. Personally I think just like with the Volibear rework they promised for early 2014, I think Riot is holding off on Warwick's because of his roller coaster popularity through the last year or two.
Probably the biggest reason why it's theoretically impossible to balance a game is because of a variable that no game developer can alter.
Player skill.
I dont understand why riot thought it would be smart to give darius a heal. He was perfectly fine before and I had a nice win rate with him before the rework. Darius literally now only needs a black cleaver and build all tank items and you will see him doing the most damage in game. Whats worse is in teamfights hes unkillable now. I was 1 v 4 fighting all of them. All I had to do was Q and im back to half health or more. Hella pathetic. Thank god in my elo all juggernauts are banned (Gold 3). I hope its the same in higher elos?
+TheGamingg33k Diamond V. The four of them still banned up here
Plastic IV. Nope,all of em banned.
+TheGamingg33k in higher elos the bans are always the same: skarner , morde, darius, fiora, gangplank most of the time unless someone forgets about him and one filler, usually a strong meta pick like elise, a gamble ban if you think a main is on the other team, or the obnoxious riven
+TheGamingg33k darius is not frequently banned in diamond and above because its actually not that hard to play against him , seriously , he is not unkillable at all and if you would learn how to play / pick against him riot wouldnt nerf him till hes useless (im sure they will do )
Der Schnitzelklopfer See I would agree with that, but even riot has said they fucked up on the juggernaut patch. Go read some red posts on surrender@20. They are actually nerfing him next patch I believe.
The issue with Riot's logic for balance is that instead of implementing a small change and seeing if the improvement to balance is good enough, they implement multiple bigger changes and completely overdo it. Take the implementation of cinderhulk for example. They buffed cinderhulk and nerfed warrior at the same time, thus killing warrior and making cinderhulk even more grossly overpowered than it would have been. Also, look at these juggernauts - they simultaneously uberbuffed all 4 of these champions and introduced multiple new items that synergise with these champions' kits and cover their weaknesses. This is why they're overpowered, and as soon as the next patch comes out, where they inevitably gut the numbers on their kits AND ruin the new items, they will disappear from the meta most likely. Baby steps are what is needed in balance changes but Riot doesn't seem to get that. Also, claiming that the changes they make are to make the game more "fun" pretty much belittles players. Players will have more fun if they feel like they're playing on an even level with their opponent, and if they want to have the odds swung in their favour dramatically, League, and all other MOBA's, are probably the wrong games for them.
Jeremy its so hard to pay attention to what you have to say when you have a darius 1v10ing the enemy
League of Legends is a fun game? Did you drink as a fetus?
Look, I love League of Legends (I drew Veigar for my avatar, so :/), but only as a point of creation. It's interesting to see the characters and lore of the game, and its fandom and fanon is well-deserved in that regard, but as a game, it's one of the most dismal things I've played. A 30+ minute game without drop-in-drop out that revolves requires teamwork with random people in a complete crap shoot who, since this is the internet, are mostly likely either stupid, toxic, or some hellish combination of both (so much for removing RNG mechanics, Riot), and boiling down to:
20 minutes of farming and the rest of the game wandering around the map and fighting people you happen to come across, and receiving punishment up the ass by anonymous jerks most likely you've been assigned to call your "team," a development team that's constantly focusing on addressing minute complaints without even addressing the much larger, more serious ones, in a game that's so deep in mechanics, making itself so fucking hard to balance that I firmly believe will never, ever, EVER be balanced even if the game keeps getting updated for the next century.
I love the game only as a venue for ideas (Kindred looks fucking awesome!), but as a game itself, it can fist itself. I quit long before Dunkey did so, so I've gotten a pretty objective overview of it.
I love League of Legends. But it's a bad game, and not in the enjoyable way. There's no dancing around that fact.
+Number Nine I agree immensely. The sole reason I got into this game is because I liked trying to break it('s systems).
+Number Nine its still the most played game in the world so something about it has to be fun. The only thing that is not fun is the community. Also I dont know what u consider being balanced. Because there has never and there will never be a perfectly balanced game, because there will always be a certain meta.
Stego1819 That's like saying the no. 3 song right now is a Justin Beiber song, so something about it has to be good.
That's because Riot is appealing to what is called the "lowest common denominator," in that it attempts to appeal to everybody of any potential audience ever. Here's a few pitfalls however:
1) You cannot make a giant blanket game for an audience only to say you want to make something specific for a specific audience. As a result, a lot of things appealing to the LCD lose a lot of their artistic integrity for MONEY."
2) Gaining a larger audience on the internet is kind of a crap idea, because if you've played any game of LoL, a lot of the people on the internet can be dicks to each other.
3) IT'S A COMMUNITY GAME. If the community sucks in a game that requires you to interact with said community BY NATURE IN ALL OF ITS GAMEPLAY, it's a bad game.
4) Certain meta my ass. We just got juggernauts in the top lane that are utterly crushing any other reason to play anything else, tanks are going down the crapper, and we just got a rework of a caster mage meant to be a bot lane APC and Riot's losing ideas to make right-clicking interesting, so the next ADC is a jungler.
Not to say LoL CAN'T be fun, but it's not worth putting up with all this other shit for those rare gleams of hope.
+Number Nine THe only real point which can make lol not fun to play is your point 3. Lol IS a team game, but this can be completely eliminated y playing it in 5 man premade groups. Those games have ALWAYS been the most fun for me.
I play alone as well, but forming your own team before starting the game will always result in a much better experience, because as many of my friends might say, I am useless if I don't get my mid lane (not "useless", no where near as useful).
As for the juggernauts, yeah they're annoying, but I really think their strength is over rated. However I might just be saying that simply because my main picks tend to counter them quite nicely (a particular blue bird comes to mind).
amen!
I have a suggestion to balance out the game.. Riot should make Blitzcrank's Q a targetted ability and increase it's range by 500 units..
Garen is fucking broken. Let me tell you why:
-Extremely hard to kill once he gets a few tanky items (especially warmogs + visage ) Not to mention W passive
-I mean,yeah he can be kited but bc movement speed and q?
-% True damage with e and r. (I mean,whose idea was this?)
-Low cooldowns,manaless + silence = OP
-So,yeah. Late game if he makes it alive in teamfights with just a sliver of health,no fucking problem! 10 seconds later he'll be at full hp again,ready once more to make your life miserable!
I kinda stopped playing league for the last weeks just because the juggernauts are op.
+careljan1999 Been playing aram because of that lol
+careljan1999 I quit LoL because Riot obviously doesn't care about the players anymore.
Well. That makes 3 of us. Can't win a single match. They are just making me give up.
+MrMaxer13 Yeah the preseason is even worse! every game an afk or u get stomped and ff @20.
4:43 and yes that is true. If the game was perfectly balanced there would be no meta game, but a lot of different strategies, like in Starcraft. However, even tough the game is a lot of fun, imo I don't think it is with so many powerpicks. Sure we can ban the Juggernauts, but then Shyvanna, Master Yi, Fiora remain playable. I don't mind having to deal with "God tier" meta picks, but playing agaisnt a powerpick is just not fun at all.
Also, I don't think Juggernauts should be able to deal that amount of dmg, the funny thing about tanks was that they were unkillable, but dealt little dmg, they didn't have burst like Darius or Garen. That is even worse than assasins from last season.
Why do people care about being "early" on a video... smh
I actually prefer being later, as it means there are lots of comments to read.
+xKarpfen no comments for the plebs
+Karpfador because videos take some time to be processed into higher quality after being uploaded.
madeofukf you know your comment does not make any sense in relation to my question?
Ah I mistook the "care" for "complain" mb Karpfador
JEREMIEEEHHHHH!!!! Thank you for hearing the outro of your vids and knowing more about the band "deluxe".Now it is one of my fav bands to hear and nice vids too...big up from Romania!!!
League is NOT fun right now :(
+Peanut i agree it is not fun anymore. i have been getting very angry in my games when before i rarely ever raged. i dont rage in chat i just rage to myself about somthings
+drozd1329 exactly the same here. So many frustrating things that are extremely anti fun right now.
+blep “amensentis” blop I have found the game alot more fun now. It just feels more skill based when it's something with obvious counter play that is op. (darius is pretty easy to kite so is garen)
+Peanut yeah I agree with you, I don't know what it is, but League is no longer fun. I tried to play again, but It's just kinda boring to play
A counters B counters C counters A. That's perfect imbalance. garen darius skarner and morde shit on everyone else is riot not caring when they balance things.
+jpz719 agreed.. they dont how coutner play once they get fed and their core items going.
André Fortin It's almost never the same first item neither, atleast from what I've seen. But when they do that get first item it's a roflstomp.
+jpz719 Unfortunately that "A counters B counters C counters A" model isn't used in league of legends so I don't know how that's relevant.
+jpz719 Its impossible to balance a game as vast and mechanically intensive as a MOBA straight to this system, but its incredibly important to always use it as your frame work. Riot seems to have went "its impossible to balance to the A>B>C system, so we're not gonna do it at all" You cant throw off the balance the way they've been doing it with Juggernauts and how they did it with assassins back when they were unbeatable. A game unbalanced so that things are unbeatable is not fun - period. Should it be hard to kill a juggernaut? Yes, thats the point of a Juggernaut. Should a juggernaut be able to 1v5 and win because they vamp/regen too much, too quickly, while dealing an obtuse amount of damage and not being able to be juggled around by supports/disablers because of high tenacity? No.
Thats not a part of "perfect imbalance" (a phrase that should never be used in the positive when referring to league anyway) thats just broken. Right now all the recipe for victory in LoL is: "build health/regen and armor"
Thats not fun for anyone. Riot you have an entire pantheon of champs for people to play and use - stop focusing on one type, any amount of tunnel vision you get in the development process will lead to the state the game is in now: Not enjoyable.
+Ívan Skelfilegi Go download steam and then download a game called DOTA2.
There is literally no reason to complain that Riot, the people who actually copied Dota/dota2, would actually make things other than cosmetics free. Dota has better graphics, more characters, a MUCH larger prize for the world championship, and overall a better feel for most. Everything you want already exists in a completely better game platform.
Don't get me wrong...I use to love and still kinda like playing League of Legends...but they're not going to be able to beat Dota at it's own game. This is why they use runes and attract losers who like to spend money to pretend they have "skill" just like on Facebook games.
I'd like to see this kind of "Juggernaut" update with champs like Katarina, Akali, Talon, since they're assasins that are like almost the same.
+Esau Alfaro So you WANT champs like Kat, Akali and Talon to suddenly become the top picks again?
+Esau Alfaro What?
theyve said that they will do More of these reworks of a specific group of Champions ( just like the juggernauts) but i dont know who theyre aiming for next
They all ready confirmed that poppy and taric are going to be the next reworks
Cody Batterson What does that have to do with the juggernauts?
That Darius play...
Am I the only one who was not listening to Jeremy but watching the Darius footage pwning this poor team?
There should be a tankbuster class.
You know, the more health, armor and magic resist an enemy has, the more damage the tankbuster deals, this to prevent from deleting squishies in one hit.
A good passive for a champion like that would be damage absorption, like for example, if an ADC attacks you you get like a 15% resistance to all damage (except for true damage).
It's called...
Kogmaw.
AADSUP23VIDEOS
I tried Vayne, nevermind.
that description though, "from time to time" bitch they be messing that shit up 24/7
Yeah sure, having really silly bs in your kit is fun for the person playing that champ, but not for the other 5 players on the enemy team. It's no fun when I'm against a Zed and he can literally do whatever he wants with no consequences. Fail an execute with ult? Vanish back to safety, because fuck it.
+Lolgamernew New ikr
+randomintrestsperson As a zed main, i DESPISE laning against him. One of the worst things to do in league. If he's good and you didnt choose one of his few counters youre gonna lose lane, no doubt. But as a zed main i can also understand that he's acc really weak right now, and struggles hugely in teamfights and even split pushing in this juggernaught meta. This doesnt excuse his impossible to deal with laning phase, but it helps laning against him if you remember that if you play safe and dont die youre gonna have more of an impact later on
+NotBothered10 Zed is one of those champions that, if you picked the right champ or at least have the right team comp, he won't really be a problem. But, if you picked the WRONG champion . .. you're gonna have a really bad day. xD
Riot when making yasuo... Hmm lets give him a passive that shields dmg... Maybe give him x2 crit chance to...... Lets give him a q that deals a fkton of dmg and has low cd and knockup.... Hmmm maybe a w that deletes everything even ults... An e with infinite mobility... I dont fuckin care anymore lets give him an ultymate that has a fuckton of aoe dmg and lets put it on 29s cd... Legit... So balanced
+Rumpelstinski Mc It's not because you got pwnd by a yasuo once that he's op. He's actually very easy to shut down, you have no idea how he was on release lol
+Louis Blazejczak Then how do you suppose you "shut him down" sense it's so easy. Do you want me to play rammus and pray to god he can't get his ult off so he doesn't get the armor pen from it and just shred me.
+Connor Griffin quinn jungle, gg.
+Louis Blazejczak
WHO THE FUCK PLAYS QUINN!
+magnusm4 Literally everyone have you not seen the LCS?
This is a good reason why I stopped caring for the game and think it's just awful...
The game was in its best moments after a year from its release. Now it's nothing but an unbalanced and unplayable piece of crap. Give up playing this; stop wasting your life in a game which isn't even fun to play. Being fun is the last thing you can ask for. League of Legends doesn't provide any fun at all. This situation won't get better, Riot is too busy releasing new champions and easy-cash skins to fix their shit. Neither new maps, nor gamemodes. Only moneygrab content. Broken game; and shitty developers. Better leave.
+Danielviomusic I dunno about you, I still have fun playing gangplank. YARRRRRR
+Danielviomusic I disagree. LoL is fun !
+Danielviomusic yeah sure whatever you say.
+Danielviomusic
They0eve been catering to pro players only, that's why,
Fuck the LCS
LOL people love league. Gtfo
The darius clip at the end just hade me physically facepalming
You say they can't use PBE to balance the game, but they could at least try. An indicator to something being balanced is better than just sending it Live. They currently don't use PBE for balance, only for testing bugs. It's like a massive waste of a tool.
There's also the fact that the Community usually have an idea of when something is Weak or OP. Obviously not all the Community is right but if a vast majority say 'Garen will be OP with the next Patch', I think they're going to be right. I hate the fact that Riot only listen to the LCS at the moment when they only play at a fixed 'professional level'; they don't play at a standard below this which the majority of the Community do, so why only listen to them?
What are you talking about? They listen to the community more than the pros.
+Booya "LoL is casual."
...are you high?
+Number Nine Compared to dota lol is fuckin casual.
K9 Tirion That's like saying mercury is safe in comparison to plutonium. Technically true, but still they're toxic as hell and you wouldn't want to stick your hand near either.
***** That doesn't make it casual. Less complicated =/= easily accessible.
One simple thing that would've baind-aid the problem by a lot is just not leaving Dead Man's Plate after the GP event, since it just a stupidly awesome item for the juggernaughts, since it helps them overcome the "I-cant-catch-up" problem they have.
Halo gives everyone the same weapon to start a match, that is true balance.
+L Lawliet You're comparing an fps to a moba...
Devlin Carter Both are games.
Mitch Conner I do.
The fuck u doing here
Crackonacid 01 I wonder.
that dunkmaster at the end treated the enemy team like toilet water
Juggernauts were not broken... THEY ARE STILL BROKEN!!
+enzoTHEferrari you'd rather have release leblanc back? assasin meta back?
+Angel of Death Light and Darkness yup, more fun, but killable
RELEASE LEBLANC NEVER AGAIN!!!
"Interesting abilities and interactions"...like the interaction between that 3rd Morde Q proc and his opponent giving him the ability to one shot them.
sorry, gotta disagree entirely with you. Riots balance philosophy is utter trash. In-fact you point out exactly why it is "They focus on making fun game-play above all else. This is why champs released with broken and over powered kits, because they are fun to play, but then balanced to fit the meta" .... Epic fail logic. Because those kits are NOT fun to play against. Fun to play doesn't balance not fun to play against.
Back in Season 1 and 2 champions were not released with broken, over loaded kits that could do everything and anything like they are now, with virtually no resource management required, insanely low cd's, and tanky ass stats no matter what. The game was relatively balanced. Both Mages and melee needin to balance mana, Mages more so, but in return as balance they did more damage. This created a fun environment, both to play in and against. They also did not focus on the "meta". Allowing champions to go in several different lanes and still be alright, creating unique, and interesting games every day.
Then they started releasing entirely broken, resource less champions loaded to the brim with CC, damage, tankyness, and again, no resource.. So much infact they needed to buff mages mana regen, drop the cost of spells across the board, and introduce mega mana regen items for common items in mage builds just to stay competitive. So much so again, that now "Oh no, I need to worry and balance my mana" said no one ever in the last 2 years. Now even champions with mana costs need not worry about their mana.. almost ever, except a few select mages, or very very early game, melee champions with mana might as well have it removed entirely themselves since they never hit the bottom of their mana pool ever...
Now Riot focuses on nothing but releasing bs patches in most cases to keep the game "interesting" Not even fun.. just interesting, so pepole who think they are trying to balance, or hopefully htis patch will be better than next, will come back and keep playing, while they continue to flood the champion pool with increasingly more broken and annoying champs to fight against.
This is why in and of itself the community is as toxic as it is. Fighting most of the champions you go up against is a pain in the ass and not fun for many people, some people compensate this by not taking the game nearly as seriously as they should, only pissing off other people on their team, snow balling into a toxic environment, all because Riot balance team suck at everything they do.
"The meta" only exists because Riot enforces it, regardless of what they say. It's apparently obvious when patch after patch for the last 4 years always reflects the E games that are going on, and directly nerfs certain mechanics being played in those games, and champions being balanced by professional league, rather than the player base itself. Again adding even more toxicity to the over all community due to this once again incompetent way of balancing.
Then you have of course have the runes and masteries which just add even more problems to the balance aspect...
League isn't a good game. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy it. I play it everyday. But I'm not so dissillusioned to think its a good and balanced game. Over all the game is pretty trash. I enjoy it because the art, and fluidity of the controls is better than any other moba, so I continue to play it.. But again... It's not a good game, because it's anything but balanced, and most of the time not even all that fun truly, especially with the toxic community.
*****
I concur and agree, though I'd like to point out I was implying that champs today are even more overloaded and OP than they were before. I never said it never used to be like that, I remember when Jax, Tryn, Yi, and Xin were released. I remember when thornmail was trash, and when tehre was virtually no counter to them anywhere in the game. I remember when the Dodge mechanic was in the game with dodge runes, and those champs could stack dodge % chance and just wail the fuck out of everyone as you miss ove rhalf your shit. What I'm saying is that its even worse today than before. Before it was a few champs here and there released in that state, now its damn near every fucking one released, minus a very select few. But even those few that aren't have extremely annoying gameplay and mechanics revolving around them.
But yes, I agree with everything else as well. The game of League is a wonderous mash of, poor choices, ignorance, arrogance, and abhorrent and obvious "We don't give a fuck, deal with it", and I'm not talking about the players either.
*****
Agreed.
+Eternally Angelic
why balance to the meta?!
That only gives retards MORE of an excuse not to play the non meta champions cause they don't utterly counter and dominate their role.
that darius at the end blew my mind
Illaoi
Illaoi
Illaoi
Illaoi
Ikr
+Jean Paul Blanchette Except she does no damage unless she can pull a spirit or ult a bunch of champs. She has to choose either damage or tank if she wants to ult teams like that. Garen and voli are stupid tanks that do a shit ton of damage, are fast as fukk, and have health regen BEFORE buying any items.
+Josh Zink Not entirely true. She still can dish crazy damage while still being remarkably tanky (speaking from experience). Her soul pulling skill is just imo unfair, more so in ARAM. There are other things too but you get the point.
"She does no damage..."
Damn. You must be playing the Non-Broken LoL then
Please LMAO low elo players get rekt by illaoi only because they don't know how to kite the shyt out of her and camp her early game be4 she reach 6
god, that last game play clip, so hard to watch how op he is, or was, idk if that's current
jeremy Just being salty..............REALY SALTY!!!!!!
+x Pandaren like always
the fundamental fault with juggernauts is that they took a design archetype they accidentally created in nasus, but didn't respect it's primary balancing factor. nasus can't force you to fight him. his only CC is a slow that offers a lot of response time. if nasus is killing you, it's because something else is enabling him. whether that's a harder CC from someone else or him threatening an objective, something outside of you and nasus is forcing you to get clubbed in the face.
this principle was most flagrantly ignored with the star problem child of darius. because of apprehend, you cannot interact with him and hope to escape unless you are a very select group of champions.
this is also supported by garen being largely ignored. ya his numbers were(or maybe still are) a little off, but he maintained the basic idea of "really scary *IF* you try and take him head on"
Playing as a juggernaut seems to do a good job of making the player feel good by playing out a power fantasy, but the way they've gone about it and their hesitation to undo the pick/ban status of these champs is unfortunate.
First, so many champs were reworked around the same time (Garen, Skarner, Darius, Mordekaiser, Gangplank, Fiora), and they were each left in a fairly strong state that picking and banning champs were almost not a choice, and unranked games on Summoner's Rift were full of them. Considering how four of those reworks are also common top lane picks, top lane has become a bit of a one-sided competition unless both players were playing reworked characters or both were playing character that haven't been reworked. With there still being a lot of power in other specific parts of the game such as sated devourer being able to make someone an unstoppable monster outside of teamfights, Vayne supposed to be filling the role of a great late game champ but also being both strong and safe early game as well, Thresh being picked every game because he's got a great kit and is able to work well with nearly any team composition, the game's recent state seems to have changed from "do what you can/like and you can make it work" to "learn to use certain strategies or you'll have a tough time against those that did".
Riot has also stated that they tend to not like the state of things when a champion gets hard-countered in game, yet the numbers and mechanics on the reworked champions makes them able to hard counter certain champions with very little chance of winning outside of constant ganks. Riven, Nasus, and many other melee top laners do not have the kits nor stats able to win lane against certain 1v1 lane matchups now that the changes have gone through, letting the smallest lead given to your opponent make them win lane and not allowing their opponent to so much as kill minions. These incredibly durable characters with high damage now also snowball like assassins, meaning multiple champions would feel forced to use all of their crowd control and burst on a single durable character.
I remember when Mordekaiser was a top laner and people would say things like "he had a lot of damage which also gave him lots of durability, that's why he can't be mobile or have cc", and yet the reworks seem to say that having damage, tankiness, and cc is ok as long as your only means of mobility is tier 2 boots and Deadman's Plate. If every champion was like this I could see the game being a spectacle, but with a pool of champs both too big to ban yet too small to make feel fair to players that don't play those champs, playing the game can feel much more repetitive, snowbally, and irritating than it used to.
I can only hope that once the big leagues finish up Riot is able to address some of the balance concerns that have come up so that I can go back to playing on Summoner's Rift again. Unfortunately though I can see Riot still being very careful with nerfs after they're done, making these champs balanced somewhere towards the end of November. I can only play ARAM and Dominion so many times before the RNG in ARAM and me realizing Riot considers Dominion a mistake makes me want to step away from League for a week. I was really hoping I'd be able to jump from platinum last season to diamond this season, but because I don't feel like learning one of Riot's favorite ten champs at the moment, I guess my season will end as platinum again.
TLDR - Riot did too much too fast and is now too slow to nerf. Juggernauts break certain old balance principles while not even being the only problem cases this patch.
If you have decent ping(and mechanics) *consider this* to counter the bruisers toplane. I was surprised.
Exhaust-Flash-Ashe with this build:
Start: Boots, 3 healthpots, 1 mana pot. . . Start with Volley then max q>w>e
Buy order: .1) Tear .2) Phage .3) Manamune .4) Black Cleaver .5) Zerker's Furor .6) Youmuu's .7) Blood Thirster .8) Last Whisper
Really good against Darius. Don't use against Renekton or Garen. Personally, still worked for me against Riven, but it's iffy.
this is a good video and i hope your position on this issue gets more recognition. frankly i'm getting really tired of the whole juggernauts op circlejerk.
"Things with no counterplay will directly be removed..."
Meanwhile yorick 7/0 top lane...
Problem with Riot is this that they wanna have 3 carry lanes. They want tanky carries on top, AP carries and countering them assassins on mid, and most important AD carries with their support on bot + jungler helping those carries.
The problem is that by putting 3 ''tanky carries'' top they destroy the whole concept because champions with no mistake-punish, tanky and with high damage are always and will be always OP.
Right now Riot should either add 2 more bans to draft mode or nerf 10 champions.
The imbalance is to be expected in a game with more than a hundred characters, though. Hell, even in games with less than twenty have balance trouble.
Compare League to Street fighter III: Third Strike. League has over a hundred characters and struggles to stay balanced even with the addition of patches. Capcom released two versions of Third Strike, which has only nineteen playable characters, twenty-one if you count Shin Akuma and Gill. The most popular version of the game is the version that contained glitches and bugs because they made for a more competitive atmosphere. Urien's unblockable setups, for example, were removed in the latter version. The thing is, these setups were notoriously hard to pull off and only the best of the best could do them anyway. League has a number of unbalanced champions, but so did Third Strike. The difference between them is that Riot can patch their balance troubles, Capcom couldn't (at the time).
In Third Strike we have Chun-Li with her crazy neutral game and Yun with his ability to build a full bar of meter over the course of a single combo, then pop Genei-Jin to keep you airborne for a hefty chunk of your life. How do you counter both of them? Don't let Chun get a solid poke distance from you, punish her with rush down tactics and pressure. Get into the Chun player's head and parry what they least expect. Countering Yun means out-playing the supposedly un-out-playable. He's fast, you have to be faster. He hits like a truck, you have to hit like a train. In both instances, Makoto is a strong pick against them due to her heavy-hitting, high-pressure game.
My point is that no game is perfectly balanced, but they can be "perfectly imbalanced" as Jeremy said. Playing against the broken champions isn't really fun until you can figure out how to exploit their weaknesses. Once those weaknesses are made clear, they are no longer overpowered. That is, until the next patch that buffs them/nerfs the champs that counter them.
So what do we do, play the op champs to have fun untill next patch?
that last clip pained me right in my jayce burst combo.
the thing is that a balanced game makes the game interesting for all players, one of the big mistakes with the juggernauts was that their biggest weakness are kiting champions, but then again, how many kiting champions do you see going top against a Darius?
Vel'koz was released a year and a half ago?
Damn im old.
I honestly haven't played the game since the Juggernaut patch because of how frustrated I got within the first few games of that patch that I played.
I'd say with the juggernauts now its a terror top lane, but it doesn't affect ranked because most people ban the reworked champs (including fiora). The only one that doesn't get banned regularly is gangplank. So it is what it is. That last clip of Darius was just painful to watch how he did that.
Yes, some champions have some things about their kits that aren't balanced, although i feel riot is putting to much focus onto kit power, and away from item power. In that base damage is more prevalent than scaling damage, and that the result is games where the lane or whole game has been decided by the load screen, given roughly even competency. It's become less about playing interaction correctly, more about picking the champions who have the smallest window to be completely stomped or have the largest window to faceroll over anyone else.
Illaoi is not fair... The first time i played illaoi i managed to get a quadra kill 1v4... And i werent even fed. And i was not surprised.
Hey I'd like to precise what you say about some elements being purposefully unbalanced : When you try to get near the notion of a "balanced" game, you will need to approach every character to a standard so you can compare each one to the same standard, and then each standard to another, theorically. But the thing is, for the game to be fun you need to have a diversity of options, which means each champion having its own identity into the game, not just to be placed on a scale of power inside its own standard role group (The most OP tanks aka juggernauts, the OP toplaners or junglers aka tanks, the unplayable underpowered junglers aka pre-rubeglaive mages). Urgot for example can't really be placed in the category of tanks, nor in the one of ADCs, because his gameplay includes both antagonistic playstyles : he is just Urgot. The meaning of Riot when they balance champions is to make every one of them "a viable option, that can be picked if it fits the team's needs, or counters well another champion, or just pleases the summoner" , while on the other side, pro-players will always be thinking "what is the objectively strongest option in this/any case "
Irelia actually benefits a lot from the new juggernaut items as well after triforce is built. She has become a pretty unstoppable force recently.
I'm not 100% on board with the "imbalance keeps the game interesting and fun." When the game gets to these states, I often just stop playing and wait it out, because you have to play broken things to win, and playing broken champs is easy, and easy games don't equate to fun with me. Part of what makes some of Riot's best designed champs so great is the challenge of working their mechanics perfectly. Your opponent has counterplay opportunities, you have outplay opportunities, and when you get a kill using that kit, you won because you knew your opponent better, not because you clicked on them harder.
Why didnt u manage meta shifts? like morde buffs what it does to the botmeta and what it ll lead to
How do i feel? i feel like not only some champions or roles should be fun every role should be fun. because of the juggernaut update 1 out of 10 people every game will be having fun unless you like being carred or having every kill taken from you. the tanky Juggernaut meta is not just unbalanced it is broken it changes the way the game is the supposed to be played. idk if its just me but in my opinion it is not ok to be able to have 2000 hp and still be able to 3 shot the Enemy team. Honestly it might be a better idea for me to just play a juggernaut in the mid lane because once im lvl 10 you can not kill me unless i am majorly out of place.
actualy some champs were balanced on release but ppl were like "hurdur dunno how to play against it yet so lets call it OP and overnerf it". examples are Ekko and Yasuo.
+NightcoreAnimeLoLAssassinPlayer You're kidding, right? Yasuo had such a low win rate on release... and Ekko's numbers were ridiculously high. His ult has no counterplay to it, so it wasn't fair the amount of burst/healing it did. You're just a butthurt ekko fuckboi.
+WIZA327 ekkos ult is so easy to deal with on terms of not getting hit by it for damage. maybe for escapes yeah, but if you can't pay attention to the little shadow thing then that's your fault for getting that giant burst of damage
yOU tHOT no duh. I'm talkin about being able to punish him for over extending. You can catch him out, but all he has to do is ult away, and before the nerfs, he could stick around and fight anyway even if he was out of position and possibly get something out of making a bad decision.
+NightcoreAnimeLoLAssassinPlayer
Yasuo on release was the most overpowered champion to be released in a while.
Have you seen him? 800 Shield on the passive with a W which gave you passive flow?
He's perfectly fine right now , but don't go high and say he was balanced at first because he clearly wasn't.
Ekko is the same , an ultimate with 120% AP ratio which heals you on 0 mana cost? What the fuck?
Again , he's fine now. You can no longer be brainded , spam skills and then escape with the ult even if you have 10 mana. Finally you have to use your brain.
+WIZA327 You went from 1 to 10 in one paragraph you salty sea-squirt, keep your toxicity on League.
IMO The reworks were decent, they could be toned down but they did manage to capture the essence of the characters (darius has always been about dunking every one same as a katarina or a yi) however the problem with the juggernauts is that at the same time they updated them they gave them a shit ton of new tools that break them. Stereks prevents burst, dead man gets over that pesky kiting problem, and titanic gives them more damage for being tankier, which is why I thought they removed atmas in the first place. If we had only the reworks w/o the new items darius and garen would not be broken like they are. Strong probably, but not broken
The system of perfect imbalance is a necessary evil, and though it hurts my soul playing against these juggernauts, it is understandable why they were introduced into the game (kind of). Another thing we have to consider is that the game is largely balanced for higher level play, ie. competitive, and so mechanics that may seem facerolly at low levels of play are countered quite easily in the competitive scene. Using Riven, everyone's favorite hate-magnet, as an example, you never see her in competitive play, though she is one of the best champions for snowballing and being uncontrollable in lower tiers.
Hi, can you make some tips for twisted treeline ranked teams?
Just started play with friends ranked and wanted to know some advice, but there is no new video about treeline
I don't always test, but when i do, it's in production
When a game usually does this, I feel like it's okay. Having these sort of unbalances, albeit sometimes frustrating to play against, create a changing landscape that doesn't really get boring. In most competitive games, we have METAs, which I heard stands for 'Most Effective Tactic Available.' Pros in any game are going to play what works the best, right now being the juggernauts, a couple patches ago being the tanks. If it were all just balanced, then the game would be kind of gray. No champion would ever get their spotlight, as all champions eventually do.
I'd be okay with assassin metas, juggernaut metas, tank metas, support metas, ADC metas, as long as it keeps the game from going stale.
The Juggernaut update is easily one of the worst updates brought to league, brining with it the highest ever win rate on a champion the game has ever seen. The HIGHEST EVER.
+Tyler Murphy who would that be
Tyler Mulford It would be skarner... :(
ive never really had a problem with Skarner. Whats so bad about him?
+Tyler Mulford You must have been against pretty bad skarners or been lucky with your team actually warding...
First of all are his pre 6 ganks which can be pretty strong considering his speed and the range of his e. then he needs to aa you once in order to stun you. That makes it easier for the team he is on to chain cc. Then his ultimate, even if you build an item to stop it (quicksilver sash, Mikaels Crucible) your teammates sometimes wont. Then there is the CD on all his abilities which are pretty low, even when fighting outside of his passive. He has a lot of problems now.
I've never usually have too many problems with skarner either because I build around him or know how to counter him but my team ALWAYS has problems with him.
ah now I see
So basically, make it fun for the person playing the champ and the team getting carried because of some insane buff or change, and make it hell for the team fighting that champion. This video wraps around the general idea of imbalances and I respect the perspective Jeremy has on the topic but as for the specifics, there are things with certain kits (such as Darius or Morde) that can be solved with scaling nerfs or ability tweaks, I just find that Riot often lacks the ability to see certain things and that their methods of balancing are questionable. While there are methods of counter play to these "OP champs", sometimes games are ruined because of the inability of team mates being able to utilize those counter play tactics often involving a lot of coordination and focus that they simply can't pull off due to the enemy team having such a lead from their powerhouse of a champion on their team. This is my view of the situation, I've gathered my opinions from being in games with these changes in play, and no not just on first release, I understand it is hectic when things are first changed, but I'm talking about when things are crazy, they stay crazy, become part of the game and we just have to "deal with it". I'll agree that the League community can be a toxic one, and I'm not trying to be part of that with this post, but if a large group of people have the same negative opinion on specific things something must be wrong. Thanks for reading, good luck out there summoners! :)
There was a pretty balanced patch right before the Juggernauts that made a lot of people ask Riot what had happened to the game.
maybe if they released the change on a server where a players from all skill ranges play there to test the patches
OH WAIT ITS CALLED THE PBE BUT RIOT NEVER LISTENS
+John Green PBE is for Bug testing. Balance Changed get placed on there to see if it is bugged or not. Nobody on the PBE complains to Riot that "This is OP! Please nerf!" Because it's never on there long enough to have an effect on that servers Meta because EVERYONE plays it. It's like if you played a game of Mirror mode and tried to balance the champions based on what they did. I play Darius versus... Darius. Ok, let's see what's broken! Well... His laning phase seems pretty... Average. His team fight is pretty cool and exactly what we wanted it to be! Let's look at Skarner! Skarner has a really nice clear speed! Let's see how good he is in ganks... He was on par with the other one! That's def not broken!
+John Green The PBE testers and the league boards are the reason the juggernauts are overpowered. Skarner isn't overpowered now, Garen isn't overpowered but the Villain mechanic is bull, Mordekaiser and Darius are broken.
at least in cinderhaulk i knew that 80% of my champ pool was open this juggernaut meta took a massive dump on that. i honestly never raged out in a game till this meta and i have been playing since patch 2.15 when tp revive karthus was a thing
The problem with the Juggernaut update wasn't necessarily that they were overtuned (though they were that, to quite an obscene degree), the problem with the update is that the Balance team seems to think that the best way to make their job manageable is to give every character a thousand and one nobs to balance with: Say, need to nerf Garen? Well we'll just give him a dozen things to do and pop one of them down a peg when it gets problematic. The inherent issue with this philosophy is that, unless your balance team has some amazing metrics to pull from and are data-crunching geniuses, knowing WHERE a problem is becomes impossible.
Long story short, the Juggernaut update's great hubris wasn't the objective power they gave the reworked champs (Though again, holy shit were these numbers overtuned as hell), the problem was they made the champions OBSCENELY complex in ways that are both hard to retune when they become problematic and hard to grasp as to why they're a problem: Garen's power spikes that are out of sync with what he's maxing in the increased spin-to-win hits is an example of a problem that, unless you play Garen, you aren't likely to know the cause of but can feel the effects. That and there are just some edge cases where common sense seemed to leave the building, like giving Skarner 100 bonus MS whenever he impales someone. That's just obscene.
When every champion and item is imbalanced, then the game is balanced.
For example, make Flash 50s cooldown and can disjoint target spells seems op, but also make Annie's target Q or Darius's targeted R less OP and offer some sort of counter play.
I hope you got what i mean.
Also, give items have an active that makes you invincible to certain damage, For example, Thornmail will remove it's passive and add an active that makes you incincible to physical damage and reflect a portion of that damage taken to the attackers will add a nice conunter and counter play to AD Carries, AD assassins, like....... watching Death mark kill Zed himself....
This will also make Poppy, Kayle, Tryndamere less OP, but it won't make then useless because they are built in.
And i believe these new items will also allows some champions to become viable.
Nice to see a reasonably well thought out vid. Everyone's going to have their own opinions about what is balanced and when X was balanced and Y was OP, but I honestly don't give a fk about any of that (because most people are wrong on such points). The points laid out by Jeremy were actually insightful and mostly correct (excluding certain examples, of course). Good job.
P.S. Ditch that awful fkn outro song. Makes the ears bleed so much.
Yea. That darius video seemed really fun to play against
honestly, as someone who loves playing assassins, i hate the juggernaut update. i hate the fact that a garen, that builds only tank items, can kill an adc faster and more reliably than the sort of character that was meant for that exact purpose. but i guess riot just heard way too much of: "this champ is so broken" about katarina and fizz etc. so they decided to make them obsolete, by making tanks better at assassinating than assassins.
my idea why the juggernauts are actually broken : Riot wanted to give the juggernauts an actual ability to stick to the most annoying of adcs (marksmans) and the most annoying of supports. However this made them completly overpowered when they go up against a melee champion instead. for example, morde's q have both a huge amount of damage and a ridicously low cooldown, which makes so even if you go all in at the exact moment en use his 3rd q on a minion, you'll get destroyed, because he will have his q back so early you won't have a single moment where you can outrade him.
The junggernauts were def overpowered, but not as much as everyone says they are IMO. They're certainly meta changing. Garen in particular has minimal CC or utility and no true gap closer or escape despite being melee. He just has raw damage and tankiness. These kinds of champions can't be fought 1v1 in melee range but can be kited and CC'd. They end up being the focus of a teamfight in the same way that ADCs are generally seen as the focus of teamfights in the "meta". Nobody sees the concept of an ADC as overpowered fundamentally though.
While they might need to be toned down a bit, I'd like to see juggernauts as a viable carry option. Juggernauts (especially Garen and Morde) are all damage + tankiness with no utility, so they inherently need to have higher raw damage output and tankiness than their alternatives in order to stay viable.
THAT DARIUS PLAY WAS SO DANK
when zionspartan asked if juggernauts will be nerfed. Riot said no. Why. cuz riot dont care about players opinion. Worst Patch ever
+Pegasus I understand that riot can only see if something is unbalanced in live (cuz pbe is stupid) but these juggernauts are fucking retarded
+Pegasus pushing reply tags the person. Also, I agree that juggernauts are ridiculous. They nerfed cinderhulk, but they failed hardcore at killing the tank meta, instead making it worse.
That last Dyrus clip... HOLY SHIT
because when tanky cahmpions are strong the game is unbalanced...
+VengfulDarkness yeah powerful tanks are ok but when they have everything and the health to just jack off on the team and win it gets kinda annoying to even see their splash.
+VengfulDarkness Because when tanky champs that can 2shot you and tank 5 veigar ults are popular the game is the opposite of balanced.
ya, those were the words I meant to use guys. just could not find quite the right ones to describe the bs enough.
Part of the balancing issue in league is that there are too many champions with similar designs. Darius and Garen, Kennen and Yasuo, alot of adcs fall under this category even after the recent preseason, meaning that the meta is often like "I'm you but better". Now I don't want to start a fanwar but in DOTA, the designs of the heroes are not like in league and are more designed in each hero being unique without a kit similar to someone else and excelling the hero in one area that can be easily countered. This is why the game is alot more balanced than league and why balancing the game is a nightmare
"Because its fun!" Yeah, it's fun. As long as you're not on the receiving end of that 3rd Mordekaiser Q.
That quadra was so epic to watch.
That darius clip was insane
riots idea of a rework: how can we make a champion hard to kill/tanky, easy to play, and do tons of damage?
Definitely can't agree to the first one in terms of Juggernauts. The numbers alone are ridiculous, and together with the 3 new items that were designed especially for these juggernauts it was SO obvious that they were going to be insanely op. You can clearly see that in one or two games.
I love how Darius just stayed in the enemy base and killed everyone tried to kill him
It's not fun when a darius perma slows you with his flash, e, w and dead man's plate as an adc or squishy. And when you are able to kite him, Sterak procs or He heals with Q.
I think the problem with juggernauts is that u cant have a tank do as much damage as a carry. when u can build near full tank and out damage the midlaner/adc ur busted. People always say "don't focus the tank" but what if the tank does the most damage?
I think rito sometimes intentionally go overboard with changes to both change up the meta and experiment with balance. Its probably faster to make a champ OP then nerf it then make it weak so it doesnt see any play and buff it slowly.
0:35 Like Zed - SLIGHTLY below average give him a buff, WAY overpowered give him what ends up being a buff if you play it right u_u - meanwhile Yorrik is allowed to be at the bottom of the totem pole for YET ANOTHER month...
Speaking of juggernauts; Yorick walks into a bar, there is no counter
But seriously though I've been playing yorick recently and all the indirect changes have made him pretty viable mid and top
Its really odd that juggernauts only weakness is movement speed really...but garen has his q,Skarner is skarner,darius has his pull (E?) and morde is morde...
The game would be better if every single champions dmg/effectiveness was nerfed by like 25%. It would also better without a select few champs that are cancer to the game (looking at fizz, WW, annie, and yasuo)
Which champs are the juggernauts?