How to Choose the Right Spring Rate - Rock Rods Tech with Jake Burkey
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2017
- On this Episode of Rock Rods Tech Jake Burkey the driver of the Riot Buggy Rock Bouncer gives you an in depth look of how to choose the correct spring rate and size for your Coilover Suspension. This method works whether you have a rock bouncing buggy, rock crawler, or even an Ultra4 Car. He goes over everything from how to account for the angle of your shock as well as trailing arm vs normal axles mounted shocks. Check out this video as well as our other rock rods tech tips as we wrap up the complete shock tuning segment with our final video coming out soon.
You can get ahold of jake and order all the suspension parts you might need at www.bustedknuckleoffroad.com
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You all prolly dont care at all but does anybody know a method to get back into an Instagram account??
I was dumb forgot my account password. I appreciate any tricks you can give me
@Josue Jasper Instablaster ;)
@Wesson Miller I really appreciate your reply. I found the site through google and Im trying it out now.
Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Wesson Miller it did the trick and I actually got access to my account again. I am so happy:D
Thanks so much you saved my account !
@Josue Jasper Glad I could help =)
Jake, you're my hero man. Not just cause you drive a bad ass buggy. The amount of effort you guys put into explaining theory in these tech tips is fantastic.
Thank you Jake and BustedKnuckleVideo! Wish there was more of this open sharing in the 4x4 world.
Should have some more tech videos coming as soon as we get moved into the new shop
Finally someone who shows the math of what is going on. Everyone seems to have a different way they say it should be done, but no one will say why they are right and the other guy is wrong.
The offroad professor
This is about the third time I have watched this series of videos. Definitely helps with my daughters build, it's my first rock crawler from scratch and these videos helped out a bunch from the hard lessons. Thanks
Glad to help!
Jake your videos are the best out there on suspension. Keep up the good work.
He knows his stuff
This was the best explanation about springs I have seen good job Jake now I want to change my springs on my truck.
We are offering 10% off all pac racing springs www.bustedknuckleoffroad.com code Pac10
Just the info i needed to even begin thinking about ordering springs. Thank you for the extremely in depth explanations of the maths.
Glad it was helpful!
I have a tough enough time choosing the spring rate on my mattress! 😂
hahaha "whats your sleep number" hahahah
jake burkey typically I put it on "rock crawler "
That is one of the most useful videos about springs and suspensions I saw around the web. Thanks!
Greetings from Ukraine!
Glad it was helpful!
Straight up awesome info! Thank you for offering us so much of what could've been kept from people like me seeking guidance in the crazy world of suspension geometry, setting up everything and the what, why, and hows that surround it all. ... The knowledge you learned in the full sized 4x4 world works the same when it comes to my little RC rock crawlers!
If you ever revisit these topics in future videos, perhaps you could demonstrate all these suspension tech videos with a 1/10th scale RC rock crawler chassis. The latest tech in scale RC makes it possible to do custom builds that would blow your mind and actually look like AND react/work like the real thing. Not just RC but "scale RC" has come a long way and they are exact replicas of the full size versions. All the suspension parts, geometry and tuning & driving... everything is directly related and works the same as full size off-road vehicles just down to a 1/10th scale more manageable size. These RC models are fully operational and therefore you could take several out on the rocks and easily record them to slowly show the aspects of how different suspension set ups really work.
We don't have any RC crawlers, but you are right that would be a good way to show the differences
ok I have to run now to pickup a friend, really don't have the time to sit through a long video like this. But, I'm super excited to have just found this channel. I saw the whiteboard with equation and understood this is what I need.
Whenever I talk to 'car guys' about fine tuning my car, everyone says it's a trial and error method...really? I don't have that much money...coming from science background I do believe every force acting in a car can be and must be expressed mathematically. There has to be a formula, engineering isn't playing dice! I will watch this and the whole series later. Thanks mate.
Jake knows his stuff!
So...much...information. Awesome video, man. Thanks for putting this out into the universe.
glad to help
Another awesome video... Thanks Jake!
the professor
You are100% right. You've got it right, all the way throught the video.
Love it Jake! Best video yet. Keep up the great work! The only thing I didn't follow is the correlation between vehicle speed and frequency, guess I'll need to do some googling. Thanks for all your hard work!
Maybe that the faster you want to go the heavier spring you need.
think of bumps in terrain as a sine wave. You want your suspension frequency to equal the frequency of the bumps. The faster the bumps are hitting your suspension the faster the suspension frequency needs to be. Whats really difficult to do is get the rear suspension frequency higher than the front. Its counter intuitive but a higher rear suspension frequency will make a buggy handle whoops better and have greater control at speed.
Great information and examples. I'll definitely be looking forward to learning more from you. Glad I learned something new and hopefully soon will get to apply it.
hope it helps
@@BustedKnuckleVideo loving all your videos, I havent stopped watching yet. I just wish I stumbled across them sooner. You have a great understanding of suspension and do a great job of explaining the results and what to expect. Great video quality too!
At the very least thank you for this in depth explanation. 1993 landcruiser dual spring rate in the rear only since it sags when loaded. Thanks again.
glad to help
Fantastic info, keep it up bro.
Thanks for tuning in
Easy to understand, great job 😉
jake is a good professor
Jake Burkey knows how to teach! You should have some kind of rock bouncer consultant title! Lol
haha the professor!
Excellent content, certainly helps! Thanks !
Glad it was helpful!
I’m a little too late but mannnn great info!! Amazing job
Appreciate it!
thank you jake information.
Welcome!
Thanks for taking the time to make these videos. Continued success to you. Thanks
Thanks!
Awesome video, thanks a lot for taking the time man!. Generally, would it be better to choose the softest spring possible while maintaining ride height so the high-end shock could do all the work? "Ride Quaility"
pretty much, the proper spring rate will give you the right ride ride with the correct preload
Great videos, short and to the point. Will all this be tied together later in a designing a frame layout?
we have a few chassis to choose from at www.bustedknuckleoffroad.com
Jesus I'm too tired for this! Awesome tho! Gotta save this for after night shifts!!
Its a lot of knowledge to take in
Really appreciate the help 👍
Thank you
Very welcome!
Thanks for the info!
You bet!
Like the couch analogy😂😂 good shit
Only Jake lol
Love the couch analogy
it makes sense
So will a primary/secondary spring setup allow you to have both a certain primary rate plus a stiffer rate once the softer spring goes into coilbind?
Is that the same as having a progressive spring?
Would you advince for or against such a setup for a ”agressive road” car where comfort is still interesting?
Or is it just adding an unknow risk?
Cool.and now I think I know how spring scales work !
Great!
Great job thanks
Thanks for tuning in
Knowledge isn't cheap another reason why i keep my 4x4 magazines 👍👍🇺🇸🇩🇪
Right on
Jake, excellent video. Nice explanation. I am not sure if it is my internet connection, but you sound lags behind. Do not have that issue with other youtube videos.
weird
What sprung mass natural frequency should you aim for in the vertical direction for 65 mph typical speed? Is the unsprung mass natural frequency (wheel hop natural frequency) important to consider?
Awesome video Jake!! 6:02 i have this setup as an independant suspension on my duke 390. Is there an oreintation to install like the wound up part on top or bottom closer to ground? And whats the difference please?
The orientation (top and bottom) of the springs doesn't change the spring rate. From 6:02, you can flip the springs top and bottom - the spring rate will be unchanged.
We now that the mass effects the natural freuquency spring but are we considering in a static position the mass of the vehicle with the unpsrung mass or without the unsprung mass ?
What is a good frequency to shoot for front and rear on a typical old school bouncer build. Shocks directly over axle with a bit of angle to them.
Great info
Glad it was helpful!
Busted Knuckle - Your reference to "alpha" confused me slightly. I understand I need to take the Cosine, however the way you explained the angle alpha I don't understand how to calculate it. If my shock is pitched in a 10 degrees at the top, but also the top is farther to the rear of the vehicle than where it sits on the axle (say 5 degrees), how do you calculate alpha?
Thanks for making this great video.
I drive 2022 ram 2500 truck that is loaded with 1000lbs of tools and camping stuff.
I use if for off roading as well as it's my every day ride.
How do i know what is the best natural frequency for my needs?
for factory applications your best bet is to contact someone like Carli for shocks
good info
Glad it was helpful!
This might be a stupid question but why is it that the tender springs on my turbo xp4 have already collapsed? Also what springs would you recommend for rocks/ruts/creeks? I'm about to go full ORB components.. and thought about changing my tender springs as well.
We have a set of FCR tender springs on order for our machine, they seem to be the ticket
Good vid!!! OK, what about air shocks? can I use the same math? I would think I have to figure out the cylinder size X air pressure to get spring rate. Then use your math for a single spring? Am I thinking right?
Air shocks are a whole nother can of worms, but that sounds about right.
I’m about to purchase a 2019 Ram Rebel I wanted to know which suspension is better for off road use the air suspension or the coil suspension
I would say coil spring, not sure that the bags could tag the abuse off road
getting right spring & shocks or coilovers is as tuff 1st time out as picking right RV or trailer, but not as expensive a mistake. Most ppl will just let the pros pick shocks for lift kit, but dialing in & length & wt of springs & factoring in the installation setup/lean of shocks.
I have a 93 range rover Classic that I use mainly for cruising not off roading. Any ideas on springs for smoothest ride best handling? It was converted to springs a while back. Thx
ask on some forum would be your best bet
Will you by chance share your excel sheets?
right on its hard to choose
Where do you learn this stuff?? And the degrees on setting up a 4 link? Is there a geometry to that or did you use trial and error?
years of trial and error combined with years of engineering school and years of internet lol
jake burkey awesome thanks for taking the time to share these videos and answer questions.
Great video! On my SXS I have 300/300 Drs on the front and my ride height is a little too low. I already have the preload cranked down. Should I get a stiffer upper or lower spring?
SXS are a different ball game as most of them are not actual dual rate
@@BustedKnuckleVideo my spring setup is an aftermarket dual rate with crossover rings.
I am curious about the right front shock, because of engine torque causes more tension on that side during acceleration, is that something to calculate for when figuring for correct set up?
Sway bar helps even that out
Hi i have changed all suspension and coil spring from my fortuner. Now I m using ironman foamcell Pro, but I found it stiffer as compare to oem. I am doing off raod only sometime, when the car has weight It feel soft and without passenger its stiffer n bumpy, so can i replace the rear spring by using oem and leaving ironman suspension as it is. Kindly suggest me your thought on it. Ironman suspension sets are 2 inch lift for your notice.
lots of variables are needed before making that decision
So how do I get a hold of you for some help. Doing a Jeep build and what to do it right.
these videos should set you up pretty well and you can order parts from us at www.BustedKnuckleOffRoad.com
Hi Jake ! I need a help in selecting my spring for a three wheeler in the designing phase of the vehicle. because all the ways you have told was logical when you have the vehicle infront of you,but what about when you are designing your vehicle from scratch.
It would be very helpful if you can throw some light unto it.
a 3 wheeler?
@@BustedKnuckleVideo yeah, like piaggio auto
Hi. I live in the uk and I’m trying to learn abit to help a friend out that races national hotrods. We over here only turn right. He has told me that he should have a higher kg/mm on the left than the right. His car is 800kg and is aloud 54% right weight and 45% rear
Is that normal to have different spring rates on oval racing setup cars?
Cheers. Ben
could be, never have raced oval track
Thanks
Thanks for tuning in.
So what natural frequency should you be aiming for exactly then? It depends on the speed you're going and how much handling/control you want, but what are some baseline frequencies and their applications? Also, how do you decide up travel vs down travel?
we typically split the travel 50/50
@@BustedKnuckleVideo thanks for the quick reply!
What about the natural frequencies, theres very little information out there about natural frequencies for offroad.
What does he mean when he says 100 pound spring?is it the weight of the spring or is it the the load acting on the spring?
weight rating of the spring
Jake is a dam good looking man!
lmao comment of the year!
yall don't be giving him the big head
BustedKnuckleVideo Now come on Matt you're right up there to.
This is dope what do you recommend for my 19 frontier i practically live in the desert i hardly ever rock crawl. Those beautiful golden soft hills call out my name but my stock with 5100s is not the bees knees
Coilovers for the Desert, bypasses in the rear with some good deaver springs
@@BustedKnuckleVideo hell yea what spring rate for the front im eventually adding the titan engine into it
I would just buy a kit from a company that has knowledge of Frontiers
Hey can you help me dial in my drift car? I need to set droop and how much preload I would want. Where can we talk?
I would think suspension on a Drift car would be nothing like an off road rig
Hello Sir,
I’m Pranav Solanki a student of VIIT Pune India. Our college takes part in sae E-BAJA ATV Competition. I have seen your videos about the suspension system and springs, but I still confused about the spring stiffness for dual stage spring. Our weight of the car is 240kg(with driver).For dual if the spring rate of primary coil is 200lbs/in(10inch length) and secondary coil is 300lbs/in(10”) and mean is 120lbs/in will it compress the same as single spring of 120lbs/in(14”) spring rate when is there is loading acting of 120lbs will both(dual stage and single stage) compress 1inch ?
And is spring rate for rear side (Primary rate 200lbs/in 10”and secondary spring rate 300lbs/in 4”) and for front (primary spring rate 125lbs/in 10” and secondary spring rate 300lbs/in 4”) and I need 0.5inch preload compression and 1 inch compression when is ATV is on wheel will it be achieved with these spring rate?
Damper eye to eye length is 20inch and it has 7inch travel. Ground Clearance is 13.77inch.
I hope a response from you sir. Please Help Sir
Thank You Sir .
the driving is biggest factor, crawling, rock bouncing, trail, vs baja, or just going down the road lifted vs normal ride ht.
If the vehicle is submerged under water do these calculations still apply? Doe the suspension behave differently underwater in general (ignoring the buoyancy of the vehicle)
Super random
@@BustedKnuckleVideo not really, I was asking if the suspension being under water effects the spring rate
What spring length is needed for dual spring coil overs? Does a 12" travel shock need 2 12" springs, or 1 12" spring and 1 14" spring?
12 top, 14 bottom
@@BustedKnuckleVideo, does having unequal bump and droop change the lengths? For example, if there was only 4" of bump and 10" of droop on a 14" or 4" and 8" on a 12" (e.g., on a WJ). Would that require the upper spring to be longer?
Would the long droop require a tender spring to keep the combined rate from being too low?
I take it Jake is a formally educated mechanical engineer? Love the content. Give us the math!
he is an engineer
Question. I weigh 255lb, riding liter naked with adjusted suspensions to the max of 180-190lb rider. If I get stiffer springs appropriate for my weight, what sort of improvement could I get?
proper ride height and your vehicle suspension working correctly
@@BustedKnuckleVideo can you elaborate about "working correctly" part?
What about this: Caddy versus Vette--what if the stabilizer bar and other cross-vehicle stiffners are stronger, bigger, stiffer to help reduce body roll? or other methods to reduce body roll? Because some cars, like Audi for example, make sport luxury cars that drive smoothly without breaking your back and can still corner very well.
This is more of an offroad vehicle setup with solid axles and 4 link suspension
👍Yea buddy 👍
good info
Yea buddy your the best my man we learned that in aviation school. 3 types of fulcrums as well as weight and balance. That’s how planes fly as well as your rocket ships. PEACE!
Nice
When you have a high quality, tunable shock, you want the spring to just support the weight of the vehicle, and as far as absorbing the energy when landing etc you want the shocks to to the job, right?
Then what is the point of having a two step springrate?
they work together as a system.
How should I set the ride height with coilovers without changing the mounting point?? Because when you take softer springs the truck will drop but your spring rate wont be the "perfect" one?
run the adjusters down
@@BustedKnuckleVideo And the adjusters are something different than the preload or?? I don't have them yet but I'm trying to understand them before I do anything.
set preload bc last bit of shock is not the same rate, cool ck; out of plume is diff rate ck; double stacking 2 springs cuts rate in 1/2 & can b a true dual rate spring.
hey how to calculate the duel rates???????
A link to this video should be the reply to every newb Jeep owner/off-roader who post the question (without searching thru archives first), “What’s the best lift kit for my ...yadda yadda, blah blah blah?” Very few young people want to take the effort to Educate Themselves. It’s too easy to just ask a question. And I often see when someone asks for advice THEN wants justification for their opinion!?!😩. I just bought a JKU Rubi w/ 2 1/2” spacers... I HATE SPACERS other than for leveling or tweaking your height. I want to replace w new springs and maybe gain an inch. Without learning this, there’s NO WAY I could make an informed decision on what spring from what company. EVO, Rock Crawler, Synergy, Eibach, Metal Cloak, OME...
It’s insane... THEN... SHOCKS!!!!!!😳
there is a lot to it
someone told me that heavier springs in the rear is better for hill climes is that true?
not true.
So the one thing I don’t understand is how do you calculate ride height? Can ride height be adjusted? Bit confused how that blends in
ride height is adjustable.
your sprung mass vs lb/in rating of your spring will give you the static ride height and determines your uptravel and droop
What is the average spring rate on a Rock bouncer what's an average spring rate on each spring and the overall
It depends on the suspension design
11:56 I lost it laughing
😂😂😂
Hello I´m having trouble with coil over, I'm using 2 12" travel FOA shock and 300/300 lb spring on a hyundai santafe 06 project, but it does not support the weight. How can I contact you for support?
300/300 seems like a lot, do you have nitrogen in them?
Ok i will check it out. Thanks.
How mucho gas do you Put in?
BustedKnuckleVideo hello I am having trouble with coil over ,I am using 2.0 12” king shock and 250/200 lb springs on 94 hardbody swap straight axle (it’s compressed live 5” ) it’s my daily and feel hard I want something smooth what spring rate you recommended
Hi bro
What is best rear spring for sonata 2014 for comfort drive
How the hell should we know? 😂
@@BustedKnuckleVideo from your experience
Of driving a Sonata?
What is the reasoning for using springs that are 50 lb diff difference between upper and lower?
soft ride
Damnit I thought I had this shit somewhat figured out, now I'm more confused. My Samurai project is close but I don't wanna throw a ton of money away on the wrong springs... I will have to do more studying
5 estrelas --- From PORTUGAL
obrigado
How many % sag is correct for trackday/ street cars?
not sure on street cars
@@BustedKnuckleVideo tks from Brasil. Nice videos
How can I stop the rear of the car from going down so much when carrying passengers
Thanks
stiffer springs or air bags or don't go by McDonalds on the way.
okay so maybe I missed it but why can't you use longer coil springs instead of adding a tender spring ?
you absolutely can. Tender springs are a bandaid
En español por favor!!!
Had to stop when he pulled out a 4ft long shock. In just trying to figure out the best spring rate for my car and lowering it...
This is an off road related channel lol
East coast? Aren’t y’all in Alabama?
close enough
Hello friend greetings, would you like to help me choose lor springs and coilovers flattened for my jeep and j designed for off road rally, its weight is approximately 1900 kg, suspension four rear link and front three link. swamper tires 38.5-11.00 r 16.
this video should help
@@BustedKnuckleVideo I DO NOT SPEAK ENGLISH I USE A TRANSLATOR TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE ME, IT WOULD BE A LOT OF HELP IF YOU TELL ME THE BOOKS I CAN USE FOR WHAT I NEED THANKS, THE SHOCK ABSORBERS ARE FOX 2.0 OF 14 INCHES AND 16 INCHES BACK
It requires more information than that
@@BustedKnuckleVideo
the use that I will give the vehicle for high speed on steep terrain and with obstacles, I need stability and comfort in driving that is safe
How does a guy get a hold of you build mini buggy long travel apr weight will be 800lbs with out me in it ad 260 with me in
we only build production rock bouncers now
I need some guidance for figuring out what kinda spring to use for my suspension. Kindly send me your email as I was unable to find any in this post. I will then send you details on my issue. Thanks.
How can I help you?
1;44/8:25
honestly....frequency comes into play with materials more...Ti has a better working frequency than steel...and it's lighter so you're losing sprung weight also.
What?
Titanium?
1;53/8:33
If u set spring preload & ride ht is off your rate is cause ck.
I smell a fellow engineer......
nailed it