FEDERAL PACIFIC ELECTRICAL PANELS - why their panels are dangerous
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 เม.ย. 2021
- As electricians, we always hear people say "You should get rid of that FEDERAL PACIFIC panel" and replace it with a new one. What is the story behind all of this, and why is it a big deal?
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Federal Pacific panels are installed in homes all over America and Canada, and have been since the 50's and 60's. The problem with this is that the breakers oftentimes don't work. There's actually quite a long history of coverups and lies that occurred over the past several decades, which ended up in fraud charges, and ultimately the collapse of the Federal Pacific Electric Company.
The big thing to take away is that Federal Pacific was caught lying about their adherence to UL standards. They were stripped of their UL listing over the years but continued to print "UL Listed" on the packaging and continued pushing out breakers that had up to a 60% failure rate for decades.
Many replacement breakers are made today, that fit into these older systems such as Zinsco, FPE, Wadsworth, Challenger, and Pushmatic - however, some believe these products should not be used, and rather the entire panel should be replaced. The argument though, is that not everyone can afford a brand new panel replacement. When you consider the cost of adding surge protection, proper grounding, arc-fault, ground-fault, and dual-function breakers, and potentially indoor AFCI protection for circuits that cannot be protected at the panel, simply replacing breakers is a much more affordable solution.
Yep, the house I live in now had breakers made by those assholes. They started crackling and buzzing, and lights started flickering. Walked out into the garage and smelled smoke. Called my electrician and 48 hours later I had a brand new panel.
We had one of those when my middle child was born. I found out the incidence of electrical fires in our subdivision was 7x the national avg., and we immediately got it changed. My kids grew up safe and strong.
This is a great case study; and told very well!
As an engineer myself, I can throw in a few bits of info: Failure rate is often associated with the rate of failure post quality control. So, if the failure rate of a widget were, say, 1% then we can expect 1 in every 100 widgets to fail *after* they have passed quality control; typically during usage. This number is often accompanied with a "MTF" or "Mean Time to Failure" indicating the average length of time before failure occurs, which can be indicated in service time, real time, etc. Sometimes, it can be an entirely different metric like mileage, mating cycles (for connectors), etc. These numbers are typically used to calculate the warranty period, by the way...
The percentage of failure off of the assembly line (Quality Control failures, which I think is more what we're talking about here) is usually indicated by a "Yield" amount. This is usually the percentage of QC passed widgets per production run, expressed as a percentage. This number can sometimes change depending on the production run size due to the technologies implemented for that particular production scale.
This is where 6 sigma manufacturing comes in! For six sigma manufacturing your products should have a failure of 1 in a million failure which is a 0.001% failure. This is what companies target. I work for Square D and I have seen things getting manufactured and tested. I would definitely suggest replace the whole panel!
Uh... 1 in a million is not .001%. You are missing a few zeros...
@@pauls1003 you are correct! I am sorry!
It’s also not one in a million it’s 3.4.
@@pauls1003 1 ppm = 0.0001%, so only missing one zero! 😎
@@tomcapon4447 1/1000000 = .000001
My parents' house, built in 1963, had a FPE panel. Amazingly we never had a problem with it. There were two breakers that occasionally tripped---we had a crappy above-ground swimming pool and when the filter was running and my dad would decide to use power tools, it would trip the garage circuit. Another kitchen breaker would occasionally trip. Maybe those were the only good ones in the panel.. Once we entered the Internet age, I googled this panel and found all the problems that were being had. When my mom passed away and I remodeled the home and readied it for sale, I had the panel replaced and relocated from the walk-in closet it was in to the garage, as I didn't want the karma of passing along this problem to the next owner. I still have the panel as a souvenir. Even as a kid if I had to reset a breaker I thought they felt pretty shoddy and never liked the way all the handles wouldn't even line up with each other.
Yeah, my wife inherited her dad's house when he passed and I ended up rewiring the whole thing. It was all on 4 Federal pacific breakers. While working on the wiring I had all the breakers turned off but after double checking I found two of the circuits were still hot with the breakers off!!! 🤬Pulled the meter to be sure for safety! 👍
I never trust a breaker, and always check with a meter.
I worked for Schneider Electric for 16 years as a service rep in Ontario. Around 20 years ago they took the Square D design and installed that in the stab Loc breakers. That fixed the not tripping problem with those breakers. They stopped making the panels several years ago. They kept making the breakers as the base was very high and the electricians complained. This year they put out a notice that they are dropping several types and sizes of the stab loc line. I would guess it is just a matter of time they drop it all. Federal was a Canadian company and square D was US. So Schneider wants to drop the Canadian company. The Square D Breakers have always been the best breaker on the market. You could put a paper clip on it to ground and it would trip so fast you could hold the clip without burning your finger. Other breaker manufactures the paper clip would burn away. Nice video on the history I really enjoyed it. I did live and work around their products
I have a 2009 made condo with a Schneider Electric (Federal Pioneer) panel with Stab Lok breakers. Is this one good to go due to its more recent age, or no?
@@JimS870 In Ontario there are thousands of these panels still in service. If you are having no issues I would leave it alone. I have some in my place and do not see replacing them. Other manufacture had some issues with their breakers also. So some where bad and most where OK.
I remember the house we moved into 1986, brand new, with Square D QO breakers. One day, I was being dumb and thought I could try to power a Yo-yo's lights by plugging it into the outlet. A bright flash and the breaker tripped instantly.
A house we moved into, in 1992, before we had it rewired with Square D homeline, had the Federal Pacific breakers (and four fuses in the garage). I was taking apart an old Electrolux vacuum, with it plugged in (because I was trying to get it to work), and accidentally touching the contacts on the motor. Got a little shock, nothing serious, but the breakers didn't trip.
@@charlesball6519 A standard breaker doesn't protect from electrical shock, you need a GFCI to provide some level of shock protection.
@@JimS870 the panel should absolutely be replaced. Stab-Loc busbars are flawed by design. Even if newly manufactured/modern breakers actually trip when they're supposed to, the Stab-Loc bus is inferior to modern bus designs.
I’ve replaced a number of federal pacific panels. One of which was still on fire at the time.
Yep
Last panel change i did was fpe. The whole stud bay was burned from 40 inches up to the cieling
@@jesseready5667 lucky you got there before they died in a fire...unreal the kind of shit that is out there just a moment away from complete combustion!
@@jmb9518 the deadfront contained the arc flash it knocked the pud fuse out whole wall was black. Carpet nearly caught fire.
@Jesse Ready I have pulled outlets where they have had a deep friar or something with a high demand motor or heating element load...or space heater...and has burned the neutral and the blue Carlon box was melted and nothing but ash cover the once white neutral....always check the panel as it usually will burn on that end too...GEs from the late 60s early 70s had major problems too...but not like FPE etc.
It is crazy out there some of the things I see.
Federal Pacific.
One of the best welders ever made!
I actually have an entire Federal Pacific panel and some loose breakers that I bought at the junk store over the years I keep for study. I drilled out rivets on one of the breakers to study their innards. Let's just say that if the dollar store sold these breakers I would believe it. This is likely one of the earliest cases of product fraud on a scale of this size.
The thing I hated the most about the stab-loc line is that when pushing in a breaker you WILL accidentally turn that breaker on.
It’s just so crazy that these panels are STILL intact in most homes and inspectors don’t inform the new home owners that “aye this electrical apparatus is kinda fucked and is a ticking time bomb. Change it own in the near future”
@@ivanromo2030 Most home inspectors haven't got a clue about that. Wasn't covered in the one day class that made them a "home inspector."
@@tarf1a the stab lock breakers and panel identification was part of my 3 month residential inspection course at Triton Community College
@@ivanromo2030 Most home inspectors are literally idiots. Mine told me my house didn't have a sewer vent. They walked past it 20 times during the inspection. They stuck their receptacle tester in every receptacle, wrote a bunch of idiotic bullshit, and charged me $500. I'll never pay for one again.
We covered it in my 4 month inspection class and I always recommend they be replaced asap
I grew up in a Jim Walters home equipped with a Federal Pacific service panel. I'm glad we survived.
We had a "Fire Pacific" panel as the local commercial supply house said. I replaced the entire pane with a bypass switch for generator.
I used to do electrical work, and this is the only type of content I'd still watch even through it's no longer part of my money making toolset. Great presentation 🤜🤛
Great video. I’m fascinated to learn these breakers continued to be used as late as you've said. By the mid eighties (at least in NYC) the standard joke was “Federal Pacifica? Wire for fire.” We all knew not to touch the damn things and not work in buildings that had FP panels and/or breakers.
Not even in the Electrical Universe, I'm an Appliance Repair guy, but your info helps me daily. I always hear what you say and it reminds me of my father (who was an electrician for 50 years plus). You echo what he states or has taught me over the years.
THANK YOU. I'm glad to relearn and hear someone of your level "parrot" what I was taught all those years.
Also after watching vids for months now, finally became a 120V member. Keep up the great work. I'll do 480V soon.
I have a Stab-Loc Federal Pacific panel in my house. Never gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling, plan on changing it. I'm just happy I don't have aluminum wire from that era.
Ah yes, Federal Pacific breakers and aluminum wiring, what a terrific combination! Then add in the cheap contractors who used 20 amp breakers with lots of 14 gauge Romex wiring, and you have a perfect storm! Yes, my house was one of those.
I was in high school taking electrical installation in the early 70s. The teacher took us to the UL Lab in Long Island, where they did do all the testing. It was very interesting to see the way they did do all the testing on all the electric products and appliances.
When we were installing residential services in the early 1960s FPE products were easily 30% cheaper than quality panels, like Bulldog Pushmatic, Bryant, and Westinghouse.
If I'm not mistaken, the Bulldog Pushmatic breakers were also problematic.
@@1912RamblerFan01 the old units were quite reliable. The cheaper stuff slide by ITE in the late 1950s and 1960s had problems. ITE also cheapened the lug design in the panel boards. The original 1930s Pushmatic breakers were bolted down to heavy copper lugs, and so there were no problems which would arise from poor lug contacts. I’ve worked in situations where 1930s Pushmatics had been used in switching service for seventy or eighty years without failing.
Don’t forget Wadsworth
have used ge for decades, like for price and quality and hd has them
That was why they were so popular with volume builders. They could buy in qty from a supply house and with a large enough order get terms discounts and dating on the payment. Helped their cash flow and held the cost of the house down. I would say about 20% of the houses I have bought for rental use have had these panels installed. These are basic 3/1.5 or 3/2 homes. basic design. some brick, some vinyl. I just figure in replacement into the price when I am figuring on buying a house that has one of these in it.
At the risk of repeating a worn out joke we over here in Northern CA
say that FPE stands for Fire Producing Equipment!
Fire sPecific
It's definitely not a joke but a real fact
Man thank you so much for your videos, not only are they preparing me for my future apprenticeship, but also gaining me connections with people in the industry. Quick storytime: My house was built in the 60s and just today we got it looked at by an electrician... Needless to say this place could've killed us all and we'd have never known 💀 When he was here I heard him talking about Stab Lok and I thought “oh lord we've got a Federal Pacific breaker” so I told him I knew the failure rate was high. I'm pretty young so he was like “yeah that's right, but how do you know?” Thats when told him I was gonna enter the industry and he seemed very pleased. He even told me that I could come and work with him during my apprenticeship. Gotta say this probably wouldn't have happened if I hadn't discovered your channel. Thanks so much for all the free info Dustin; I feel like I'm well on my way to become a journeyman!
My mom and dad had the house remodeled in 1968, three months later there was a fire in the attic, the fire department determined it was "electrical", never looked at the breaker box. Almost died from electrocution while wet and plugging in a swimming pool filter. After mom and dad passed, an electrician was stunned to see the Federal Pacific panel and the history behind it...
Must have been a defective panel because it didn’t kill anyone!
@Les fire departments always investigate to determine origin on the fire. Btw the NEC National Electric Code book is written by the fire marshals or some other fire department.
We replaced an entire FPE panel at my wife's house a few years ago. She sold the place, we moved into a rental that also has FPE panel. Needed to replace a problem breaker (tripped at less than 80% load), and the Connecticut Electric replacement breaker was $43.00! (Could have ordered one from Lowes for $27.00, but would take a week to arrive). Been well aware of FPE problems for years, so knew what to do. The more generic "Stab-On" breakers, today, cost around $3.00. Used those at a food plant I worked at, never any problems. But FPE "Stab-Lok"? Run like hell...
I saw a huge SK screwdriver get burned in half when it accidentally shorted a 50 amp FPE protected circuit. The shaft was around an inch thick it dropped through an open hole in a sub-panel. Then burnt into two pieces in well under 15 seconds. But, of course, there was also a 100 amp main breaker. Neither one blew, but the lights dimmed in the house enough to alert them to check on me.
"They just kept makin' the fuckin' breakers!"
I refuse to do any installations in a home with FPE. I've at times reported really bad panels to the local jurisdiction having authority. The landlords don't appreciate it, but I'd rather lose a customer than someone else lose their life..
In Missouri when I go to pull permits for jobs we have to replace FPE if they have it. It’s the new normal
AHJ - Authority having Jurisdiction
I too refuse to do any electrical work that has a federal Pacific panel because of the liability , because if a fire started due to an electrical failure I could easily get the blame for it , Even though it was not my fault , Not to mention the cost to hire a lawyer to clear my name , I definitely point out to the customer of how dangerous Federal Pacific panels are and they must be replaced immediately because with these panels
They don't have any electrical protection
Federal Pacific breakers are merely on off switches and in actuality , With many independent tests , it turns out that the failure rate is 80 percent and up
@@ironmartysharpe8293 Why should you be left with the lawyer costs to clear your name if you were to be unfairly blamed? This is why the american system of legal costs of each covering his own is dumb compared to the british way.
Landlords would be complaining even more if you had not mentioned the danger of FedPac panels and they had one of their properties burn to the ground with potential injuries and deaths. You’d highly likely be subpoenaed and asked WHY did you fail to pick this up as a qualified electrician. To protect yourself establish a paper trail with the landlord that you did indeed warn them of your findings and recommendations.
Every electrician knows this! I was involved in testing 50fed pak breakers in a lab. 50% wouldn't trip at 100% overcurrent! Death traps!
I’m 3 months into my apprenticeship and I’ve already been told multiple times that if we enter a home with a fire specific panel we are to inform the homeowner that we can’t work on them and they should strongly consider a panel change and we leave.
Been in the trade 23 years. Wont even work on it unless I change it out.
sounds like you are being trained properly
Good policy. From what I can tell, if you touch it, you're now responsible for it, even if you haven't actually done anything. Safer to walk away if you can't replace the whole thing.
"Don't try and upsell me things I don't need, just fix the problem" applies here.
@@AKSoapy29 nope. If the customer says that, move along abd let someone else address that nightmare. It's not the customers fault, but I cannot afford a second home because the customer doesn't trust me. It's my license, you cannot force me to do something. I can't force you to spend money and you can't force me to do work. Done and done.
There's a reason the panel's are called Fire Prone Equipment.
Hey Dustin, I'm answering your question about outgoing failure rates. My first job in 1988 was a SRAM product engineer for Cypress Semiconductor in San Jose, CA where all manufacturing was done on site. Failure rates were measured in part-per-million or ppm. If memory serves correctly, the goal was to have an outgoing failure rate of under 100 ppm, which is 1 in 10,000 or .01%. Love your channel - please keep up the excellent work!
I owned a house built in 1980 with a zinsco panel installed in a hallway closet. I knew nothing about them until a friend who was an electrician educated me about them. I never had a problem with that panel but it did make me worry . After I no longer owned the house, ironically, it did burn up, but the cause was PGE starting the Camp fire which destroyed Paradise, California. 😖
There were LOTS of FP's in the NY/NJ metro area. I can't even count how many I replaced.
I lived in a house with a Stab-Loc breaker panel... it's always scary to hear about their troubles. My university also had TONS of old FPE switchgear and breaker panels located throughout the campus, all of which should be taken out and replaced.
Also, I believe I read somewhere that UL (or someone else) actually did a test of the breakers. But FPE had them rigged to a remote control system where someone would trip the breaker manually if it didn't trip on it's own. They were a really shady business...
Sounds like Project Farm should test the Connecticut Electric breakers.
My dad worked for Jersey Central power company in the 60's and 70's and called them "Federal no -trip"
FPE Nevertrip/Nev-R-Trip are other common and applicable names.
in addition FPE had a 600V industrial panel and breaker line , and when CSA started to test breakers it was found they cannot pass the test so that line was scrap all together
@@mike60510 sorry , i think the failure occur with CSA interrupting capacity test certification
Awesome video. I started my electrical career in 1978. So I have seen a lot of Federal Pacific and zinsco. I always do my best to talk to customer into replacing those systems. The cost of those replacement Breakers can sometimes be quadruple the cost of a normal breaker.
Went on a remodel with the Federal Pacific equipment I would ground out a circuit on the metal box to show an apprentice just exactly firsthand what's going on. Nothing makes an impression like a live experiment like that. It would also help convince the customer to change it out.
Thank you for all your hard work and effort you put into this video I learned a lot about the history of the companies that I didn't know.
ROCK ON.
I was actually changing outlets here in Brooklyn today and the insulation of the wire got nicked in the metal box and it caused a short and the breaker did not trip. The wire burned through 😳. Good old Federal Pacific
That could also be a grounding issue, could it not?
I had the same issue, I assumed that the breaker tripped and continued to work on it until it told me it was still hot, lol.
Back when I worked in a shop for an equipment reseller, we had over current testing machines that we would use for testing circuit breakers. We also had tons of fire pacific - I mean federal pacific - breakers in our warehouse. We used to take them into the shop, hook them up to the overcurrent testers and watch them burn up for fun.
Scary to think of just how many of these were in people’s homes and how many are still in service.
When I bought my house in 2000 my building inspector told me I should replace my panel because it was no good federal Pacific .my father-in-law was able to track down a couple of breakers for me when he went to Canada because I could not find them anywhere near where I lived. I ended up replacing my panel.
Just replaced two Challenger panels for a customer and there was even breakers sizzling at times. They were VERY hesitant to replace the panels but they finally decided to do it as long as there wouldn't be any AFCIs installed.
You're seriously awesome brother. I remember subscribing to your channel a few years ago, when you were just getting back to working for another company, and shutting down your own show.
These videos have gotten even better, and your views are blowing up. Love to see it.
You're a fantastic teacher - i've sent your switch loop video to so many apprentices.
The last time I encountered a FPE panel was on a call about loss of power in someone's bedroom. Turns out the circuit had been overloaded at some point and melted the wire feeding it because the breaker didn't trip..luckily their house didn't burn down
I have seen transformers trip before an FP breaker would
Just started my Apprenticeship with 2 different electrical contractors. Your the freakin man Dustin! Your videos have been helping me out TREMENDOUSLY
I replaced my federal panel in my last house after living there for 5 years... after having 4 breakers go bad I got fed up and replaced the panel with a square d panel. Never had an issue afterwords.
Did the same thing to a house I has purchased "as-is". It too had an FPE and went right into the dumper. A Square D Q0 panel please!
Great Video! Just sold my 92 year old mothers house built late 50's. I had replaced (I know shame on me) a stab lock panel a while back (Thanks for your great videos). Had to use some J Boxes, so I was nervous, fill calculations (thanks), methods etc, when home inspector walked up popped the dead front and covers off, looked it over took pictures. Thought I was busted, but it PASSED. Then they found an stab lock I didn't know about so the original house panel failed, mine passed. Had to pay an electrician this time, he came replaced panel and everything passed. Really appreciate your constant HARPING ON DOING QUALITY WORK. When I replaced the first stab lock I had never replaced a panel, but tried to follow your examples and do a neat organized panel. Secure wires, grommet through panel, wires organized, bonded properly etc. Next to your work it would look amateurish but much better than typical DIY person. Thanks for the great guidance and motivation. I can really now appreciate your skills and knowledge at doing such high quality work in a timely manner.
This is interesting. I'm a First Year Apprentice working primarily in service. I would say that the majority of panels/shut off's that we work on are Federal Pioneer. It's a running joke as to how long it will take for the breaker to trip when you're shorting a circuit to find the breaker on a Federal. They're garbage, but remarkably common in Canada.
I think you missed that the UL category requires that the equipment have a 100% fail-safe condition of failure and that the _other_ problem that FPE boxes are known for is bus incineration.
I’ve seen this myself, good call!!
To tell you the truth, I've been doing this a long time and knew that the Federal Pacific panels were junk, but I didn't know about the failure to trip, I always thought they were dangerous because of loose connections to the buss
Thankyou for your time and knowledge. I did research on FPS because a friend of mine had fp in his home. After showing him my research on this panel and breakers it didn’t take long before I had his panel and breakers replaced. We all feel much safer now. I did a 20amp short out on this fp did NOT trip.
Can verify, had a 90A 240v disabled-on by a cockroach at the appliance fuse in a compact electric furnace. When we pulled the box and replaced it with a [D] all the bus contacts were corroded.
Keep in mind that "60% were faulty" means that about 80% of the dual-throw were faulty and that the disconnect in the box was ONLY a disconnect... had to hit mine with a sledge to throw it.
Upside, the electrician my FIL knew was the guy who put the roof of that trailer together when he was 19.
I know these take a lot of time to produce and I appreciate that. THANKS
Thanks for the video, Dustin. Your speech, body language, positive energy, the research you have done, it's all very impressive.
Perfectly worded
I bet he couldn't speak without his hands 😂🤣
I had to have my whole panel/breakers replaced recently when an electrician said he wasn't allowed to do any work on the federal pacific panel due to liability. $800 ugh.
Cheaper than a funeral and house.
$800 is incredibly cheap. That’s a $2500 job all day long
you got off cheap was the guy your buddy or something?
Hmm. Panel was for my condo, maybe I got lucky with the quote or the guy was just looking for the work.
Having this information is a huge plus especially when we come up on this situation now we have this information to provide to the customer. Appreciate you Dustin. Appreciate the down to earth useful information you constantly provide. I always share your videos to help educate my crew. Thanks 😊
Another good explanation of FPC panels. As a home inspector I instruct my staff not to remove the panel covers. The breakers are also very loose on the buss bar.
We just tell clients to replace the panels. If any body resist the advice I tell them to just GOOGLE it. Once they read the nightmares they replace them. Thanks again
OK, time to turn the hat around?
I just discovered I have one of these boxes, been living here for 6 years in a mobile home. I haven't ever had a problem,breakers have tripped before when we were figuring out what plugs were on what line. But after listening to you very informative by the way I'm going to look into replacing the whole system !! Don't want my home to go up in smoke !!Thank you for posting this great Information !! I'm subscribing now !!
My parents had a Federal Pacific panel. I told them over and over to get it replaced. One day the electric stove direct shorted, blew the plug off the back of it, spewed black smoke everywhere, and filled the drywall behind it with molten metal. The breaker never tripped. I never really tried to figure out exactly what happened, but I suspect the whip got loose (my mother pulled the stove out several times per year to clean behind it), overheated, and shorted. It took almost burning the house down for my parents to get a new panel. My father still doesn't believe me when I try to give advice on HVAC/Electrical haha.
Had an overload on a breaker the other day and the FP Breaker did in deed trip and shut off power. Will still replace panel sometime anyway
I had no problem with an FPE breaker trip on an overload. But trip on a ground fault? Make sure you have a welder’s mask available.
i have an FP panel in my house lol. and im a Master Electrician! i just dont touch the thing, havent had any issues yet, but im well aware that i should have changed it out the day i moved in!
You should take care of it. Especially given your expertise as your years as an electrician. You dont wanna risk it.
Like the cobbler's children having holes in their shoes!
I replaced the one in a piece of property I own and was really appreciated the confirmation from an expert. Thanks Dustin.
"Quality control" was an oxymoron in the 1970s. I believe that about 20% of new cars had to be pushed off the end of the assembly line because parts had not been installed.
My Dad was good friends with a guy who owned the local Chrysler dealership. When I was about 12 years old, I was with him when he went to the dealership and the owner showed us a brand new Barracuda, I believe it was, where the trunk lid was misaligned with the fender by almost an inch. The dealership owner complained that his body shop had to partially rebuild many of the new cars they received. This isn't a slam on Chrysler, I'm pretty certain the same thing happened at other manufacturers as well in the 1960s and 70s.
Bought a 3 unit property with one of these panels. My real estate agent pointed it out right away as well as the home inspector and the insurance inspector. Everyone seemed very aware of this issue out here in Massachusetts. We did replace the whole panel.
Dustin, just watch your video on FPE panels. I really enjoyed it. It was a little long but the content was all there and very important. I am a retired 21 general contractor, I was a building inspector for just over 5 yrs and a home inspector also for just over 5 yrs. My knowledge of electrical was somewhat limited. Even though my father was an electrical contractors in the 50's and 60's. So your video gave me a lot a insight and much more understanding of the FPE failures. I was aware of them but was very nice to know the history as well. I also know that there are other panel manufacturers with issues, ie Zinsco, Bulldog, Challenger etc. I also like your demeaner, ( cuss words, etc. spoken like a true contractor! lol). I can tell that you are passionate in what you do. Which is rare today. So, thank you for this video. I hope others will gleam from this knowledge that will make them safe!
My (awful) ex was an indoor grower, renting a house. It had a FPE panel. Yeah, bad combination.
She hired a traffic engineer with a drug problem to wire her 15kW of lights, which he did by daisy-chaining each outlet off of the one before it. With 14 guage solid. I eventually fixed that. Ironically, the problem with a breaker came when I used my welder and it should have tripped the breaker but didn't. That's when I read up on these panels.
Same ex hired the same idiot to install a mini-split. With (water) plumbing tubing and fittings. He did at least use liquid tight flex for the power to the outdoor unit...except he ran out so the wire was exposed for the last foot. He also used his leg to hold a board he was cutting with a circular saw, and YES, he did end up in the hospital shortly thereafter with a pretty sizable cut.
Don't date selfish idiots who hire other idiots. And don't trust FPE panels.
Still have a ton of these panels along with Zinsco in condo buildings in Chicago. Along with FP and Zinsco switchgear. Scary shit.
From what I understand is that their test bench had a way to manually trip the breaker even if the breaker wouldn’t trip its self, so the test was guaranteed to trip the breaker every time!
That's correct , Federal Pacific had set up a remote control to make the breakers trip when the inspectors arrived to fool them that they worked perfectly in which they didn't work at all
@@ironmartysharpe8293 i would love to have seen that bench
One of your best shows. Thanks for keeping this info out there
In our area ALL the mobile homes built from that era had FPE boxes. After servicing one or two we all learned to fear just walking into one of those homes. Paper thin paneling on the walls with an FPE panel in a closet behind a bunch of non-fire resistant (yeah, back then they hadn’t come out with restrictions for fabrics either) polyester pants and shirts. Like hiding a self igniting lighter behind solid gasoline. I was also a volunteer fireman and the number of electrical fires in mobile homes with FPE equipment was horrifying
My dad was an electrician and a volunteer firefighter in a town with many mobile homes, most with Zinsco/FPE breakers, and aluminum wire. At least one or two burned down every week.
To test the slow-trip thermal cutout on breakers, which is a separate system usually to the electromagnetic short-circuit cutout, the easiest way is a "liquid rheostat" which is kinda dangerous cause saltwater + exposed electricity aren't supposed to mix - it's typically just used as a dummy load for testing backup generators, but it'll work for breakers too. Alternately, a TRIAC motor controller and a rack of 500W halogen floods adding up to 200% rated load, with an amp clamp to measure what current it pops at.
Thank you for this video. We had a FPE panel and had it fail. Was left with a service panel full of copper bbbs and a down power line.
I live in southern Virginia and do HVAC.i see a lot of these panels in homes still here.
I'm an HVAC guy, three years in. Never knew why my boss told us not to touch FP panels and just put in breaker-disconnects instead when a FP panel was present.
I thought HVAC guys work from the disconnect to their equipment? Atleast in my state, that’s how we do it. But I’m a refrigeration/hvac guy.
Between my uncles, cousins, father-in-law and friends who are various engineers and in the manufacturing industry (and the various conversations I've had with all of them):
Batch testing yields of failure rates aka "negative consequences" vary widely among sectors. In electronics (appliances) can be acceptable at 10 to 15%.
In pharmaceuticals, over 2% and someone is going to lose their job.
However, various factors and metrics are in place for "Quality Assurance" and separately "Quality Control"
I have one. It’s on a pole with the meter. From there to the box on my house.
Couple years ago we started having problems, finally got an electrician to come over. Nice guy, looks at the box on my house, it’s fine. We go to the pole and starts telling me his insurance does not cover him working on a FPE box. He will not touch it. But he was nice enough to look at it and tell me what was wrong and how to fix it short of swapping out the box but recommended replacing the box. He also recommended pulling the meter instead of trusting the main breaker. The common lug was corroded and burnt, moved common to the other one. He also said to reset (it only has the main breaker) main once a month until I replace the box. Nice
wow, about 5 years ago we were looking at a house to buy, but the realtor stated the buyer would have to replace the main panel to purchase because the panel was prone to fire....needless to say we didn't even think of buying the house, and this was the panel that was in place! Think I'm going to like your channel!
Very educational and informative - Thank You.
This stuff is amazing looking forward to seeing the other brands
Hello from the UK. Great channel, I love your collection of old instruments.
Excellent video. You mentioned Reliant Electric in the video. The actual name of the company was Reliance Electric, my father worked for Reliance for 40 years. Many years ago my father told me about the rigged test panel the Reliance engineers discovered and opened a whole can of worms. Also, I’m not positive but I think it was Rockwell Automation not Exxon that bought the product line, but, as often as companies are bought and sold Exxon may have owned them at one point.
Cant wait to see the others in this series
In the process of buying a house in 2014, the house was built in1955. Fortunately, our Real Estate Agent pointed out the Federal Pacific Panel, I did a little research to verify the issue which gave us the needed leverage to negotiate a lower price to cover the cost of the panel replacement. I had a licensed electrician install the new service while I did many of the branch circuits myself. Before the new panel installation, I accidentally had a dead short on a 15amp circuit. The Federal Pacific breaker did not trip, even after some wire nuts were melted. I ended up tearing out and replacing most of the wiring in the house, previous owners had done some pretty shoddy hook-ups with no regard for wire colors.
so glad i came across this video. My home has one of these panels and i'm in the process of pulling a permit to replace the panel. Its still going to be several months by the time the electrical company and the city will come to my home and disconnect the service to get the work done. I was not aware companies made replacement breakers.
My brother opened a hardware store while I was in college. He needed to do some work in his store, and I volunteered to give him a hand. My first FPE experience. My first clue was all the breaker paper face markers were all brown heated. What I found as these breakers heated from use, their breaker trip levels increased with constant heating. And that disease spread throughout the entire breaker set as time progressed! As the store grew, and more loads were added, there was never a trip warning! And things kept getting worse. By the time I saw the panel, you could actually feel the heat on your face standing in front of the panel! Thats when I realized, UL meant properly bribed to get approved! Welcome to post WW2 business in the good old US of A!
Great presentation, very informative. 1960 my parents bought a brand new house in Brick Town NJ. It was your typical tract house, 3 bedroom ranch and had the dreaded FP breaker panel. No 220 circuits in the house, natural gas heat, clothes drier and stove, no central AC. I do recall some of the breakers tripping. What was really scary was that the wall receptacles had no ground lug, one day my uncle came over and replaced every single receptacle in the house that has a ground prong. Luckily my parents sold the house in 1971 and wasn't required to update the breaker panel.
I had an uncle like that. He replaced the ungrounded outlets receptacles with outlets that had a ground...but no ground wire. It was safer just to leave them be.
Rad video as always. Lots of good info here, really looking forward to the others coming on the old junk. I think it would be rather interesting to see testing on the failure rates and maybe doing the same test with modern breakers we use.
I have been a licensed master electrician since 1981. As mentioned below, the worst breakers besides f-P are Bulldog Push-Matics, even the older GE ones would not trip. The Best are Square D QO ( not Homeline) and even Cutler-Hammer. I can pretty much say you will never have an electrical fire with Square D's. I,ve had them trip even when a light bulb burns out.
Agreed, replace the panel, it maybe cheaper than buying all replacement FP breakers. The talk in the trade was you could weld off a FB breaker. Many an electrician has been seriously hurt with this horrible FP breakers.
Might sound a little corny but your videos have helped me understand how USA power works for home to light commercial settings.
Like abstractly I knew positive negative, shock hazards, AWG wire sizes, rewiring plugs or receptacles. Why I still carry all that caution and respect for electricity but am more at ease understanding these concepts.
Thankyou
Oh god, I'm now realizing the house I grew up in had a Federal panel. I just recently found a bunch of stab-loc breakers cleaning up in the basement. And I'm 99% sure the garage sub panel is also federal. No wonder in 30+ years I have never ever ever tripped a breaker in the garage, running lights, grinders, welder, 240 compressor, etc etc and never tripped even when I was sure it was overloaded. Thanks for this video, I had no idea about these. I'll be changing that panel out asap.
Here in Puerto Rico old houses have them, each breaker is expensive and hard to find so it's better option change everything to General Electric. ✌️
I experienced the same up here in Canada. FP breakers are $120 from suppliers if you can find someone with a few in their stock. GE panels are popular and 15A breakers from GE are $7 each wholesale.
Ge sucks. Had trouble with them the entire 50 years as a sparky. Took there crack service department 2 years to secure a low voltage relay for expensive dual ended 13,200 volt switchgear that was less then 10 years old. Had to replace 2 600 amp 600 volt ge junk circuit breakers after turning them off for machine overhaul. Service department was difficult to deal with no the worst to deal with. Was doing free work for a poor school & church and needed 6 500' spools of #12 guage wire. The ge crap supply house only sold it in 5000' spools. GE contactors from size 00 to at least #4 size starters in MCC buckets always ran 30 degrees hotter than 3 other brands that I use to PM & perform an IR scan.
@@garbo8962 sorry to hear that. I use GE when it's residencial, bigger than that Square D is great quality but expensive, that would be up to the client if they want to pay the difference. I used to work for industrial pharmaceutical companies and Square D is the brand.
Cutler Hammer is the way to go...all the rest live in their shadow now that square D is in the shitter from covid
Old timer told me when I was an apprentice. Another problem with these panels is the trim screw in the middle of some the panels. Suppose to adjust that so the breakers fit tight against the cover. A lot of times it isn’t adjusted and makes a bad connection, as well as a faulty breaker.
What’s up Dustin, been wondering when you’re gonna put out more “Schematic” type vids where you explain the wiring processes of different equipment and what not. Those are really informative and I’ve gained a lot of knowledge watching them. Keep doing what you do brotha
After my dad passed, mom bought a smaller house built in 1960 it had FPE breaker equipment. I'm not an electrician by training, but I knew enough to know that I would not want this. Not only were the breakers bad, the boxes were way too small and everything was jammed together - it was dangerous to work on. Also, it had 4 "Mains", so you were never really sure what circuits were live or dead when one of the mains was tripped. For safety, I used to trip them all when I had to get into the panel.
One final note to Electric U: It was RELIANCE (not "Reliant") Electric that bought the previous owner. I know this because I was working at the former Haughton Elevator, Div, of Reliance Electric at the time. The whole deal was later bought out by Exxon as you noted.
Extremely informative thank you. I've had personal experience with these breakers too and told horror stories as well.
Thankyou for helping me with your videos👍🏼
Just changed out my parents fed pac Panel a couple months ago. Thing was the original from the 70s and had 6 total breakers, 220s included, powering the entire 1k Sq ft house. These things rarely tripped, we had to put 2 window acs, a laser cutter, and lots of normal items on a circuit to get it to trip
Great video, and I'm glad to see Dr. Aronstein mentioned. I should find the catastrophically failed Zinsco main breaker I have, and send it to your for your video on them.
My dad was an electrician who specialized in FPE replacements for a while (lots of them installed our area). He thought that a lot of these panels were installed because they were so physically compact, and could fit in the space that used to have a fusebox without needing major framing work. Also, in addition to all the failures with the breakers themselves, the bus design was extremely poor. Depending on what breakers were installed, you could have upwards of *100 amps flowing through a single 8-32 screw*.
Great history lesson. All that I’ve ever heard about FPE is “ stay away”. Well done video👍, thanks .
Wow 😮 New Subscriber
I recently was doing a shut down with Federal Pacific switchgear. I was bringing down the load by shutting off breakers so Oncor can pull the fuses on the service transformer. I shut off a 400amp fused breaker and it blew up. A fire ball came shooting out and smoke 💨 filled the E-room.
Been there with 200A and can just imagine what you experienced.. the sound, smell and sight alone wow. IIRC should switch gear be operated once in a while to satisfy maintenance requirements?
Sounds about right. Don't the let PM find out. That's good temp material
Cesar, I am sorry to hear about the trouble you had replacing the breaker. How may I be of assistance? Thank you.
~ Jessica
@@SudburyMan Try a 600 Amp 3 phase 480 Volt one. Talk about a smell that lingers. Pepe le Pew would like his to last that long.
And as far as tripping them weekly, that would not work in the environment I worked in. When research takes years and an electrical power outage can wipe out a year's work, it isn't going to be done. In fact, that is why I had to change one breaker with the panel hot and the wiring to the 3 phase breaker on. And it was all lug type connections, not ones where they clip in. Worse part, there was 480 Volts at around 5000 Amps that could be supplied by that wire from the transformer. And of course, it had to be the hottest day of the year so that meant that half way thru the change, I had to dump the sweat out of the rubber liners of the linemen's gloves.
Dustin! Good vid as always.
Absolutely the best explanation I have heard regarding FPE panels and its timeline history. I am wondering where you acquired all that information and research. You have caught my attention and I am now a subscriber. I’d like to add a comment saying, ‘these panels deliver power just fine, they just do not Fail Safely’. So if you have one in your home do not reason that you’ve never had a problem with it. Because the day there’s a short circuit, ground fault, or overload you could potentially have a fire starter.