Nice to see someone analyze and to conceptualize the code with logical reasons explaining interpretation of the guidelines giving by the NEC Codes and tie it all together thats sensibly explained in simpler terms communicating the NEC CODES
Dude I just want to say THANK YOU!!! You have no idea how helpful your videos have been for me. I work for my father-in-law who hardly speaks English and we have one hell of a language barrier between us to put it mildly. I’ll get enough English info on a job or visual reference that lets me find it in your videos at the end of the day I get home. I love this trade and just wanted to say thanks for the content. Bet you didn’t know u had an online apprentice lol
Really neat set of rules. They make even more sense than they did before. A split bus system is something I've not come across, other than having a contactor in the middle, like for a lighting panel, and the bus underneath being controlled by the contactor.
I found it interesting. When we bought our house, it had a Federal Pacific split buss, fully loaded and overloaded before the main. Swapped it out before moving in. I feared a fire hazard. I’m not licensed, but still passed inspection. Chances are, mainly because the inspector saw the old panel and decided the change was safer. Went with SqareD qo. It was the only brand I could find with enough spaces with a 125A main. I really wish I upgraded to 200A, but $ at the time was an issue.
You always could've just got a 200A panel and bought a 125A breaker to use as your main--thats what I did a couple years ago. I'll upgrade the service size later when I'm not broke but at least I won't have to replace the panel again
Never saw a panel with a 125 amp main breaker. A 200 amp panel was always the same price as a 150 amp. Would only be less then $20 for difference in price of 125 amp aluminum service cable verses 200 amp cable.
9:10 This right here is why I paid to take a class on “how to read, find, and interpret” the NEC Code Book. Got some slack from co-workers when did this long ago when was going for journeyman test; but, don’t care…..cuz for me, money well spent and helped me out.
It's really common here in Alabama to have a main lug only panel or a "meter/load center combo" with space for 6 240v breakers, one of which feeds an indoor subpanel that supplies all interior 120v circuits. Sometimes the outside panels will end up with 120 breakers for outdoor lighting or outlets.
NFPA is _supposed_ to be written by the manufacturers -- who are motivated by their profits -- but, of course, it is. (that's why GFCI, AFCI, and both are required in all manner of [censored] stupid situations, like a 50A drier plug.) These sort of constructs are just sub-panels that share a box. :-) As long as there's a single main disconnecting means -- i.e. big knife blade thingy -- there's nothing wrong with them. (other than their obvious oddball nature.) Note: we had something similar wired into the RV... to "convert" from 240 split, to single 120. (breaker that shorts the A and B buses... if you forget to open that breaker before connecting to 240, well, it opens for you. :-) )
Couldn’t agree more. Go read a Toyota or Honda service manual. They are the absolute top of the line. Makes American manufacturers manual look like garbage.
Man I know a code guy. Its pretty interesting. When we have a strange question about what the hell we should do, he will disappear, make love to the book and then have a crazy plan. To the book. Good guy.
I've got an old wadsworth i'm about to swap out (my own personal panel lol), but the curious thing about the panel that I always wondered about, It has a fused main disconnect but has a 100 amp breaker for a subpanel feed that came with the panel. I guess because it's an ancient 200 amp panel? I never thought about the availability of larger breakers back then. It also has the strange quad double poles with the outer two and inner two tied together.
Let me tell you something I’m working on the split bus last week. It was so damn confusing. It was a three phase coming in the disconnect. I didn’t even bother checking out because I didn’t check it. I did everything I had to do remove all the GFCI’s because one of the half of the building wasn’t lighting up that’s what I’ll get you. The GFCI‘s open replacing no power still replaced all the electrical outlets on that side no power still replaced some of the bad breakers that weren’t working right replaced. It was no power steel. It was a damn fuse in the disconnect pisses me off, took me three days to figure it out. I told him 10 hours anyway, I appreciate you my guy.
I enjoyed the video. I have a Split bus panel. And I’m thinking about adding a sub panel. I also thought one day to add a single disconnect outside. I enjoyed the video.😎😎
I have installed a split bus panel in NEW comical construction last year on Fort Bragg n.c. brand New... So yes they are still used quite a bit here...
Interesting with the multiple services, what came to my mind was something like a datacenter or hospital that has to be operational in case of one outage and would want multiple main feeds from different directions and multiple redundant backups
Weirdly, I've never seen a residential split-bus panel. Lots of office/ warehouse type uses running a split 240V / 480V from different transformers though, most unmarked. Those are always fun...
The newest version of NFPA 70 says that a service disconnect is required on the exterior of single family dwellings. A surge protection device is also required for the entire service.
I had one in St.Pete Fl, over on 38th ave, # 6870. she had gas dryer and water htr, range and stove top, took 2 dbl brkrs, A/c too a dbl brkr air handler took a dbl brkr, dryer took a dble and a dbl brkr worked the lower half of that panel for all 120 volt circuits. we used the dryer for Gen when Irma came thru, I pulled the meter to avoid juicing a linesman.
Love the videos! I thought it was funny when you said 100 amp service. The house I work on are 400 amp service, 600 and 800. These house are beautiful!!!!
@@jt9437 last summer I helped rough in a house that had 1000 amp service, near Clemson SC. Had an indoor movie theater, two hot tubs and a pool, and an indoor volleyball court in an outbuilding. I'm told the homeowner was a trial lawyer with his own practice and has a handful of offices in the state, plus he is a professional poker player on the side.
If it was done by Apple you would just throw out the whole electrical system and rebuild it from nothing any time you have to change a lightbulb...all boxes and panels would be glued or welded shut and non-serviceable. Connections would be welded instead of terminals so even if you cut it open you can't change it.
I used to belong to an organization that has printed suggested standards and reccommened for over 100 years. The text pages are organized in chapters and bound in post-bound books (2 books) similar to loose-leaf binders. When changes are made, only the pages involved are printed and disseminated to holders of the books to be inserted while the old pages are removed. This has been successfully done for over 100 years. Each book is thicker than one of your NEC books.
That's not how NFPA does it. They want ("need" by their definition) to sell you a new $$$ book every 3 years. So much so that there's no PDF version anymore. You have to subscribe to their stupid web service. Thankfully, not every jurisdiction adopts new code every 3 years. (I've heard rumors some cities have refused to accept 2020 because there's no electronic document.)
You gotta do a video being on a bucket truck and explaining parking lot light or commercial outdoor lights, manufacturers, photocells, and timers that run off 277/480
Great vid man. I used to get really annoyed by you but had to admit I learn so much in almost all your videos. You do a great job and are filling a true void here on YT. Keep it up man I hope you enjoy more and more success
9:41 disagree with your take on how they write NEC... What we do is very complicated and requires a shit ton of information because so many things in our world demand electricity... Code is not at all an instruction manual, it simply guarantees a SAFE install... Doesn't have to be efficient, convenient, or economical but rather a safe install to be NEC compliant. If you follow the code you will have a safe system THAT'S IT... 🤓⚡🤷🏻♂️
@@Wayne3nterprises right and if you know how to navigate the code book you'll appreciate the indexing such as sections 240 and 250. Or article 320 and 334. It's written by very competent people who revise it every 3yrs..!! What else do you want...??? If it were easy everyone would do it...!!
Hrm.. If I understood that correctly, you are saying that my service panel is not to code. I seem to have dual 150 amp service coming from the meter to the main panel next to it. This panel has a few breaker slots below, but mostly it has two main breakers that each feed one sub-panel inside the house, so to shut off all of the power, you have to flip both of the main breakers in the main panel.
Was surprised to see a large hospital that I retired from had the 1970 dual 13,200 volt service in one end of a basement and a 1998 dual 13,200 volt service in a addition to 10 story building. Sure that circuits were added from new addition to original building. So you would have to go to 2 locations maybe 800' walk to secure normal power then go up to roof to secure halve of the emergency power feed from 3 generators. Had 4 other gen sets next to newer service.
Apple would install non-replaceable light bulbs and require the entire house to be brought to the Apple Store to have the fixture replaced. The would void the warranty on the house if you make any repairs.
They are interestin' if u never saw one before. U will see a lot of them down in St.Pete FL. I had one. house had a gas wtr htr and dryer so the big stuff was stove and oven and the central A/C and a 2 pole breaker to feed the lower half for 2 wire branch circuits. There are no MAINS though. So when Irma came though I fed the house from generator through the dryer ckt. and pulled the meter to avoid juicing a linesman. I did of course cover the meter so no water would enter the meter box.
@7:05 I'm surprised there's no section highlighting the new revisions, changes or additions. You would think something like that would be not only useful, but important.
California utilities will bring in a 2nd service just for high current car chargers (e.g. dual 50 amp tesla chargers) with their own meter & panel. It's actually easier than trying to upgrade an old home 60/100 amp panel to 200.
As a fire inspector, I very much appreciate your code-change rant. Although I'm sure the "old guys" tasked with writing the code revisions might not. 😂 I've got NFPA 1 & 101 every three years, with frequent reference to 70, 72, 25, 13, 10, 96; then there's 80, 85, 88s, 92s, 220, 230s... I have to say though, when our building official gifted me his old NEC Handbook, I was as confused as I was thrilled. I still have trouble navigating article numbers instead of chapters. But I guess 1:11.1.7.3.1 isn't really any easier to get to than 70:110.22. 🤷🏼♀️
If i have a main panel that has no main breaker but instead has main lugs, could i just add two 100amp breaker where the circuit breakers go and backfead them with the red and black hots that supose to go on the main bus, instead of buying the entire main breaker convertion kit?
Good data!! Now i have to replace my panel lol, ive got a split panel lol, main bus splits down to four (4) sub busses, and there's no main breaker lol, its direct wired to the meter, thank you 1974 construction lol
Never ran into a split bus panel. I'm sure they are around the east coast though. Especially in the southest they use anything that looks like it can be reused.
So bottom line, do I have to replace my panel? I have 6 220v breakers, 1 x 60amp feeds my lower bus, 1 for dryer, 2 x 40amp x 220v for an on demand water heater, 1 for appliances (split outlets) and 1 for the oven... U want a paid vacation in Seattle 🙂
At the time this was adopted a typical modern all-electric house had (5) 220 circuits; oven, A.c., dryer, water heater, air handler, the sixth handle would feed your general lighting branch ckts. Fun fact
The NEC is very similar to how someone tells a long story. They have to include every intricate detail about every single person, place, and situation that they encountered. If you try to get them to jump ahead they'll say, "But wait! This is important to know and it ties into what I'm about to say next." And you're completely LOST because there's too many things to keep track of which makes the story harder to follow. 🤣
What's even worse is you heard a slightly different story in the last version, and now you can't remember if that plot twist is in this version or the last version.
Not gonna lie thought that was grandfathered listed equipment for paralleling lower gauge wire directly from the panel in some old code, instead of using a nipple to an enclosed distribution block.
My house has a 125 amp split bus panel, I did a bunch of electrical work shortly after we bought it and the inspector suggested I make replacing that panel my next project.
Okay, given some jurisdictions require a main service disconnecting means at the meter, could that theoretically make otherwise "illegal" panels fair game again? It would be terrible practice, but could someone do it?
The work flow process is still the same from the firefighting/emergency response perspective. You’re still looking for a single exterior service disconnect first, then a single interior disconnect. Then you go for the 2-6 disconnecting means within the first panelboard/switchgear/etc. This revision to code prompts that the default is a single disconnecting means, which is a much safer design.
and how about K&T yup good ole knob and tube? fun fun fun! seen houses on Cape Cod registered with the historical society, also had screw-in plug sockets.
i worked at a apartment complex that had around 50 of those exact FPE stab lok split panels he has on the wall...i warned management about them but what do i know right??
How do you think this relates to Solar Generating systems? It seems common (on youtube) to use say the right hand side of the panel for incoming legs of 120 from several inverters, and loads on the left hand side. Do you think this pattern is up to code as long as there's less than 6 handles?
"Six operations of the hand" doesn't necessarily mean 6 breakers. Many inspectors consider opening a panel door as the first step. I've never heard it referred to as the "6 handle rule" in Northern Ohio.
6 switch. Weather single pole, 240 or tandem single. No more than 6 switch in a single can under 125 a service as I recall.. I did solar. Alot of hacking...
Question: Is this discussion applicable to sub-panels? For example, if I have say a 200A main panel in the house feeding a 100A sub-panel in a detached garage, do I have to have a single point disconnect for the sub-panel in both enclosures or is it ok to only have the sub-panel disconnect (breaker) located in the main panel?
I think you are okay. My 1975 house I bought in 2017 has that and I've got a million 120v plugs and a 220v plug in the garage. Figuring out which turns off what is the biggest headache though
Dustin does the 2020 apply to service generator panels that are outdoors and manual switching mains that alternate as the main switch securely locking out the alternate switch until manually switched again( Eaton CH48GEN3060R ). Gregory.
I do know if using triplex with a single Romex you must trip tie the breaker. Solar derates mcb all the time to keep the 125% rule or the 6hand rule. It's up to the field tech to check for safety. Would you do it to grandmas house!
If you want things to be simpler on the surface, sure, someone from Apple might be able to help, but you will have to put up with a lot of arbitrary changes still since Apple loves to do that...
im still a bit lost on all of this 6 handle rule shit. so does this affect a sub=panel with no main disconnect? another scenario, you have your 200A service coming in to your main box. in that main box you have a 100A breaker that goes to a sub-panel which also has a 100A main disconnect. in that sub-panel ther is a 60A breaker that goes out to.... lets say a 220v heat pump. outside at that heat pump, there is a service disconnect. is this the type of thing this 6 handle rule is aimed at? i always though tthis kind of thing was ok (albeit, imo, a bit sloppy) ???
Apple is the last place I'd want to redo the code. You're thinking linux, that way they could still keep it a little confusing but it would be navigable.
Dustin, "illegal " is not really the correct language to use. The correct term is "non-code compliant". My instructor( who was also an Electrical Inspector with my local County) corrected me on this one day 25 years ago, when I was still an apprentice. Great video otherwise. Thanks, Russ from Oregon
If something doesn't comply with code and you refuse to fix it, they will cone arrest you and seize the property, with no compensation for what was taken.
@@timramich if you have a house build 25 years ago and the code changed 15 years ago. It was built to code but is no longer code complaint. If you tried to use 25 year old code for today then it would be illegal.
To drag this into the weeds a bit regarding multiple services on the same property - I know some places (sports stadiums in particular, but could also happen with office buildings, hospitals, and others) have multiple feeds from the local electric utility (often fed from separate substations). Theory being that under normal operations they can load balance between the two feeds and if one goes down they can shift everything over to the other and if both feeds go down they can use generators. Would this count as two services or no? If it does count as two services, is there a specific an exception in the NEC that would allow it? Understand I am not an electrician or an NEC geek by any stretch, just asking for my own edification.
I'm wondering that also. My school campus has 2 underground feeders from the street. Most buildings have an A/B switch to change feeders if one goes down.
I see a purpose to the code being written in a certain format. But not everyone who passes the code test is all worth their salt. So, it's just more difficult for some others to read through the code book and gain the knowledge.
The split bus panel design made me wonder if there is another type of panel or device that can have two services come in but would have a switch that determines which of those services is engaged. curious if there is a solution to manually switch the source for a downstream subpanel of a residential 2-unit building. The purpose is to be able to change on demand from which unit the detached garage or workshop is powered. If there is no such switch, wondering how it would be designed to accommodate such a requirement. I can imagine that such a switch would need to have 2 independent buses to make sure hots and neutrals come from a subpanel that services a specific unit but not sure whether each bus would need an independent ground or they could share just one ground.
You said the quiet part out loud. NEC and NFPA are all staffed by device manufacturers and most changes are to make their new toys relevant. Ehem, arc fault.
Please make more code type videos. Hell I'd be happy if you start a series going through the code book.
Nice to see someone analyze and to conceptualize the code with logical reasons explaining interpretation of the guidelines giving by the NEC Codes and tie it all together thats sensibly explained in simpler terms communicating the NEC CODES
Dude I just want to say THANK YOU!!! You have no idea how helpful your videos have been for me. I work for my father-in-law who hardly speaks English and we have one hell of a language barrier between us to put it mildly. I’ll get enough English info on a job or visual reference that lets me find it in your videos at the end of the day I get home.
I love this trade and just wanted to say thanks for the content.
Bet you didn’t know u had an online apprentice lol
Thank you for clearing that up. Yes, I like the code talk.
Really neat set of rules. They make even more sense than they did before. A split bus system is something I've not come across, other than having a contactor in the middle, like for a lighting panel, and the bus underneath being controlled by the contactor.
I found it interesting. When we bought our house, it had a Federal Pacific split buss, fully loaded and overloaded before the main. Swapped it out before moving in. I feared a fire hazard. I’m not licensed, but still passed inspection. Chances are, mainly because the inspector saw the old panel and decided the change was safer. Went with SqareD qo. It was the only brand I could find with enough spaces with a 125A main. I really wish I upgraded to 200A, but $ at the time was an issue.
You always could've just got a 200A panel and bought a 125A breaker to use as your main--thats what I did a couple years ago. I'll upgrade the service size later when I'm not broke but at least I won't have to replace the panel again
Never saw a panel with a 125 amp main breaker. A 200 amp panel was always the same price as a 150 amp. Would only be less then $20 for difference in price of 125 amp aluminum service cable verses 200 amp cable.
9:10 This right here is why I paid to take a class on “how to read, find, and interpret” the NEC Code Book. Got some slack from co-workers when did this long ago when was going for journeyman test; but, don’t care…..cuz for me, money well spent and helped me out.
... Did they not teach you that in school as part of your apprenticeship??
I remember when we upgraded from 50A to 100A...damn near shat myself with glee!!
It's worth the aggravation, to learn more about the changes, as well as how to find the information. Thank you!
It's really common here in Alabama to have a main lug only panel or a "meter/load center combo" with space for 6 240v breakers, one of which feeds an indoor subpanel that supplies all interior 120v circuits. Sometimes the outside panels will end up with 120 breakers for outdoor lighting or outlets.
NFPA is _supposed_ to be written by the manufacturers -- who are motivated by their profits -- but, of course, it is. (that's why GFCI, AFCI, and both are required in all manner of [censored] stupid situations, like a 50A drier plug.) These sort of constructs are just sub-panels that share a box. :-) As long as there's a single main disconnecting means -- i.e. big knife blade thingy -- there's nothing wrong with them. (other than their obvious oddball nature.)
Note: we had something similar wired into the RV... to "convert" from 240 split, to single 120. (breaker that shorts the A and B buses... if you forget to open that breaker before connecting to 240, well, it opens for you. :-) )
Dustin, don't ask for Apple. Get TOYOTA to redesign the codebook. They know how to make things simple and durable! No pointless updates!
Apple will complicate it so much more and then say, submit your question about the code and $150 every 15 minutes for us to reply with your answer
Toyota this also 90% plastic and unreliable but aye if they make good instructions 🤷🏻♂️
Couldn’t agree more. Go read a Toyota or Honda service manual. They are the absolute top of the line. Makes American manufacturers manual look like garbage.
@@fedfreds832 tell the taliban that 😂
Yeah Apple will make it so you have to scrap it all and buy another. And you're not allowed to order parts.
Man I know a code guy. Its pretty interesting. When we have a strange question about what the hell we should do, he will disappear, make love to the book and then have a crazy plan. To the book. Good guy.
I've got an old wadsworth i'm about to swap out (my own personal panel lol), but the curious thing about the panel that I always wondered about, It has a fused main disconnect but has a 100 amp breaker for a subpanel feed that came with the panel. I guess because it's an ancient 200 amp panel? I never thought about the availability of larger breakers back then. It also has the strange quad double poles with the outer two and inner two tied together.
Yesterday watched 2hr and 40min on code, so your little video no problem, thanks for the clarification...
Keep up with the code talk... I am such a code nerd. It helps keep my knowledge fresh.
My house was built in 1976 and was wired for 200A when built. Must have been quite fancy back then.
1966, 200A service.
Show off
@@reignorshine. To be fair, it was a Federal Pacific panel.
Let me tell you something I’m working on the split bus last week. It was so damn confusing. It was a three phase coming in the disconnect. I didn’t even bother checking out because I didn’t check it. I did everything I had to do remove all the GFCI’s because one of the half of the building wasn’t lighting up that’s what I’ll get you. The GFCI‘s open replacing no power still replaced all the electrical outlets on that side no power still replaced some of the bad breakers that weren’t working right replaced. It was no power steel. It was a damn fuse in the disconnect pisses me off, took me three days to figure it out. I told him 10 hours anyway, I appreciate you my guy.
Love your shit man. I’m new to the general home inspection game and your learning me up appreciate it!!!
I enjoyed the video. I have a Split bus panel. And I’m thinking about adding a sub panel. I also thought one day to add a single disconnect outside. I enjoyed the video.😎😎
I have installed a split bus panel in NEW comical construction last year on Fort Bragg n.c. brand New... So yes they are still used quite a bit here...
Interesting with the multiple services, what came to my mind was something like a datacenter or hospital that has to be operational in case of one outage and would want multiple main feeds from different directions and multiple redundant backups
Weirdly, I've never seen a residential split-bus panel. Lots of office/ warehouse type uses running a split 240V / 480V from different transformers though, most unmarked. Those are always fun...
Thank you for your all the great information you give us. Really enjoy your videos.
Hey bud. North Texas journeyman here. Talk about resetting big breakers like the big stuff. Thanks♥️👍🏻
The newest version of NFPA 70 says that a service disconnect is required on the exterior of single family dwellings. A surge protection device is also required for the entire service.
I had one in St.Pete Fl, over on 38th ave, # 6870. she had gas dryer and water htr,
range and stove top, took 2 dbl brkrs, A/c too a dbl brkr air handler took a dbl brkr,
dryer took a dble and a dbl brkr worked the lower half of that panel for all 120 volt
circuits. we used the dryer for Gen when Irma came thru, I pulled the meter to avoid
juicing a linesman.
Love the videos! I thought it was funny when you said 100 amp service. The house I work on are 400 amp service, 600 and 800. These house are beautiful!!!!
800 A service? That’s a big house!
@@MrDontcareify we do custom multi million dollar homes lol. Yeah they are!
@@jt9437 last summer I helped rough in a house that had 1000 amp service, near Clemson SC. Had an indoor movie theater, two hot tubs and a pool, and an indoor volleyball court in an outbuilding. I'm told the homeowner was a trial lawyer with his own practice and has a handful of offices in the state, plus he is a professional poker player on the side.
Awesome work. The details matter!
If it was done by Apple you would just throw out the whole electrical system and rebuild it from nothing any time you have to change a lightbulb...all boxes and panels would be glued or welded shut and non-serviceable. Connections would be welded instead of terminals so even if you cut it open you can't change it.
I used to belong to an organization that has printed suggested standards and reccommened for over 100 years. The text pages are organized in chapters and bound in post-bound books (2 books) similar to loose-leaf binders. When changes are made, only the pages involved are printed and disseminated to holders of the books to be inserted while the old pages are removed. This has been successfully done for over 100 years. Each book is thicker than one of your NEC books.
That's not how NFPA does it. They want ("need" by their definition) to sell you a new $$$ book every 3 years. So much so that there's no PDF version anymore. You have to subscribe to their stupid web service. Thankfully, not every jurisdiction adopts new code every 3 years. (I've heard rumors some cities have refused to accept 2020 because there's no electronic document.)
Grew up with a FPE split bus panel, no main disconnect for the bus to change breakers
What would be really cool is a video on what wiring a garage for electric car support. Going to be a ton of demand there.
same lawyers tht make the usa tax code must help with the NEC lol
You gotta do a video being on a bucket truck and explaining parking lot light or commercial outdoor lights, manufacturers, photocells, and timers that run off 277/480
Great vid man. I used to get really annoyed by you but had to admit I learn so much in almost all your videos. You do a great job and are filling a true void here on YT. Keep it up man I hope you enjoy more and more success
9:41 disagree with your take on how they write NEC... What we do is very complicated and requires a shit ton of information because so many things in our world demand electricity... Code is not at all an instruction manual, it simply guarantees a SAFE install...
Doesn't have to be efficient, convenient, or economical but rather a safe install to be NEC compliant. If you follow the code you will have a safe system THAT'S IT... 🤓⚡🤷🏻♂️
His rant was about how it ordered information and how it was organized for ease of navigation though.
That's is correct
The NEC is a minimum safety standard - Mike Holt
@@Wayne3nterprises right and if you know how to navigate the code book you'll appreciate the indexing such as sections 240 and 250. Or article 320 and 334. It's written by very competent people who revise it every 3yrs..!! What else do you want...??? If it were easy everyone would do it...!!
I used a company called bay power. Thay are certified in breaker reconstruction. If you had to use a old one go through a similar source..
Hrm.. If I understood that correctly, you are saying that my service panel is not to code. I seem to have dual 150 amp service coming from the meter to the main panel next to it. This panel has a few breaker slots below, but mostly it has two main breakers that each feed one sub-panel inside the house, so to shut off all of the power, you have to flip both of the main breakers in the main panel.
Was surprised to see a large hospital that I retired from had the 1970 dual 13,200 volt service in one end of a basement and a 1998 dual 13,200 volt service in a addition to 10 story building. Sure that circuits were added from new addition to original building. So you would have to go to 2 locations maybe 800' walk to secure normal power then go up to roof to secure halve of the emergency power feed from 3 generators. Had 4 other gen sets next to newer service.
If the NEC was Apple you'd be required to buy a new house for anything beyond a light bulb replacement. 🤣
Yeah no shit. They'd have their hand in all the manufacturing before long too--DONT FORGET TO BUY BRAND NEW BREAKERS EVERY YEAR
Or even worse they'd lower your breakers amperage rating every month after the new apple panelboard is released...🤬🤬🤣
Apple would install non-replaceable light bulbs and require the entire house to be brought to the Apple Store to have the fixture replaced. The would void the warranty on the house if you make any repairs.
They are interestin' if u never saw one before. U will see a lot of them down in St.Pete FL.
I had one. house had a gas wtr htr and dryer so the big stuff was stove and oven and the
central A/C and a 2 pole breaker to feed the lower half for 2 wire branch circuits. There are
no MAINS though. So when Irma came though I fed the house from generator through the
dryer ckt. and pulled the meter to avoid juicing a linesman. I did of course cover the meter
so no water would enter the meter box.
Great video bro!!
@7:05 I'm surprised there's no section highlighting the new revisions, changes or additions. You would think something like that would be not only useful, but important.
California utilities will bring in a 2nd service just for high current car chargers (e.g. dual 50 amp tesla chargers) with their own meter & panel. It's actually easier than trying to upgrade an old home 60/100 amp panel to 200.
Word. And you don't have to bring existing to code....
Code required a 200a can and feeder. But some ahj allow mcb derates to existing amps. Falls on utility to approve....
As a fire inspector, I very much appreciate your code-change rant. Although I'm sure the "old guys" tasked with writing the code revisions might not. 😂
I've got NFPA 1 & 101 every three years, with frequent reference to 70, 72, 25, 13, 10, 96; then there's 80, 85, 88s, 92s, 220, 230s...
I have to say though, when our building official gifted me his old NEC Handbook, I was as confused as I was thrilled. I still have trouble navigating article numbers instead of chapters. But I guess 1:11.1.7.3.1 isn't really any easier to get to than 70:110.22. 🤷🏼♀️
Also, I'm not familiar with split buses but I do look for the main disconnect when I'm at an existing commercial or +2-family residential.
If i have a main panel that has no main breaker but instead has main lugs, could i just add two 100amp breaker where the circuit breakers go and backfead them with the red and black hots that supose to go on the main bus, instead of buying the entire main breaker convertion kit?
Good data!! Now i have to replace my panel lol, ive got a split panel lol, main bus splits down to four (4) sub busses, and there's no main breaker lol, its direct wired to the meter, thank you 1974 construction lol
DUSTIN BIG FRANK HERE, you explain the Code booK good , you should do a subject once each week!! Please!!!
Never ran into a split bus panel. I'm sure they are around the east coast though. Especially in the southest they use anything that looks like it can be reused.
So bottom line, do I have to replace my panel? I have 6 220v breakers, 1 x 60amp feeds my lower bus, 1 for dryer, 2 x 40amp x 220v for an on demand water heater, 1 for appliances (split outlets) and 1 for the oven... U want a paid vacation in Seattle 🙂
I still have a square d split bus panel, the dryer, well pump, range and the lower bus main is up top. The lower bus main is only a 50amp.
The code book is written like a law book. Once you know how to read it which doesn't take that long to learn, Keeping Up With The Changes is easy
At the time this was adopted a typical modern all-electric house had (5) 220 circuits; oven,
A.c., dryer, water heater, air handler, the sixth handle would feed your general lighting branch ckts. Fun fact
Love your videos! But maybe try getting your mic off the table... Every time you touch it there's an audible thud
I’ve actually seen 2 of these here in Vegas.
The NEC is very similar to how someone tells a long story. They have to include every intricate detail about every single person, place, and situation that they encountered. If you try to get them to jump ahead they'll say, "But wait! This is important to know and it ties into what I'm about to say next." And you're completely LOST because there's too many things to keep track of which makes the story harder to follow. 🤣
What's even worse is you heard a slightly different story in the last version, and now you can't remember if that plot twist is in this version or the last version.
Not gonna lie thought that was grandfathered listed equipment for paralleling lower gauge wire directly from the panel in some old code, instead of using a nipple to an enclosed distribution block.
Thank you very interesting i learn something new
My house has a 125 amp split bus panel, I did a bunch of electrical work shortly after we bought it and the inspector suggested I make replacing that panel my next project.
That suggestion was a good gift
@@3dplayer- It's such a big project though. Personally I think replacing the cloth-covered service entrance is a higher priority, but that's just me.
Your right. One project or projects.
Okay, given some jurisdictions require a main service disconnecting means at the meter, could that theoretically make otherwise "illegal" panels fair game again? It would be terrible practice, but could someone do it?
The work flow process is still the same from the firefighting/emergency response perspective. You’re still looking for a single exterior service disconnect first, then a single interior disconnect. Then you go for the 2-6 disconnecting means within the first panelboard/switchgear/etc. This revision to code prompts that the default is a single disconnecting means, which is a much safer design.
Yes I like it. I have seen those panels from the 70's that are split panels. One may even have had screw fuses so that is way older than 1970.
and how about K&T yup good ole knob and tube? fun fun fun! seen houses on
Cape Cod registered with the historical society, also had screw-in plug sockets.
I learn about changes in the code book like most guys. By inspectors catching violations and making me change it.
i worked at a apartment complex that had around 50 of those exact FPE stab lok split panels he has on the wall...i warned management about them but what do i know right??
How do you think this relates to Solar Generating systems? It seems common (on youtube) to use say the right hand side of the panel for incoming legs of 120 from several inverters, and loads on the left hand side. Do you think this pattern is up to code as long as there's less than 6 handles?
Were there split buss panels with a main breaker?
"Six operations of the hand" doesn't necessarily mean 6 breakers.
Many inspectors consider opening a panel door as the first step.
I've never heard it referred to as the "6 handle rule" in Northern Ohio.
6 switch. Weather single pole, 240 or tandem single. No more than 6 switch in a single can under 125 a service as I recall.. I did solar. Alot of hacking...
Question: Is this discussion applicable to sub-panels? For example, if I have say a 200A main panel in the house feeding a 100A sub-panel in a detached garage, do I have to have a single point disconnect for the sub-panel in both enclosures or is it ok to only have the sub-panel disconnect (breaker) located in the main panel?
I think you are okay. My 1975 house I bought in 2017 has that and I've got a million 120v plugs and a 220v plug in the garage. Figuring out which turns off what is the biggest headache though
I've installed NEW dual buss. Notching only in the bottom for single tandem and quads. I.e. square D. It's still a thing. S f. Bay a.h.j. a mess.
My home has one,built 1980, has narrow ge breakers
Dustin does the 2020 apply to service generator panels that are outdoors and manual switching mains that alternate as the main switch securely locking out the alternate switch until manually switched again( Eaton CH48GEN3060R ). Gregory.
I do know if using triplex with a single Romex you must trip tie the breaker. Solar derates mcb all the time to keep the 125% rule or the 6hand rule. It's up to the field tech to check for safety. Would you do it to grandmas house!
depends on nice Granny was. . .
If you want things to be simpler on the surface, sure, someone from Apple might be able to help, but you will have to put up with a lot of arbitrary changes still since Apple loves to do that...
I enjoy your code vijeos.
So main disconnects are allowed as long as they all have a master disconnect in each
Na man continue to rock on my dude!
im still a bit lost on all of this 6 handle rule shit. so does this affect a sub=panel with no main disconnect?
another scenario, you have your 200A service coming in to your main box. in that main box you have a 100A breaker that goes to a sub-panel which also has a 100A main disconnect. in that sub-panel ther is a 60A breaker that goes out to.... lets say a 220v heat pump. outside at that heat pump, there is a service disconnect. is this the type of thing this 6 handle rule is aimed at? i always though tthis kind of thing was ok (albeit, imo, a bit sloppy) ???
Apple is the last place I'd want to redo the code. You're thinking linux, that way they could still keep it a little confusing but it would be navigable.
🙋🏾♂️Question ⁉️ do the 2014 NEC book still relevant enough to take the test in Oklahoma?
Dustin, "illegal " is not really the correct language to use. The correct term is "non-code compliant". My instructor( who was also an Electrical Inspector with my local County) corrected me on this one day 25 years ago, when I was still an apprentice. Great video otherwise. Thanks, Russ from Oregon
If something doesn't comply with code and you refuse to fix it, they will cone arrest you and seize the property, with no compensation for what was taken.
@@timramich I would call it illegal. It is very much law. Don't mistake that. It will be used against you in the court of law.
@@timramich if you have a house build 25 years ago and the code changed 15 years ago. It was built to code but is no longer code complaint. If you tried to use 25 year old code for today then it would be illegal.
@@FishFind3000 I stand by what I said
Can you talk about hot buss panels. Square d homeline makes a meter main with no main breaker just 8 spaces
I work for apple. The bull is just more complicated with less language to explain... A bigger gray zone...
To drag this into the weeds a bit regarding multiple services on the same property - I know some places (sports stadiums in particular, but could also happen with office buildings, hospitals, and others) have multiple feeds from the local electric utility (often fed from separate substations). Theory being that under normal operations they can load balance between the two feeds and if one goes down they can shift everything over to the other and if both feeds go down they can use generators. Would this count as two services or no? If it does count as two services, is there a specific an exception in the NEC that would allow it? Understand I am not an electrician or an NEC geek by any stretch, just asking for my own edification.
I'm wondering that also. My school campus has 2 underground feeders from the street. Most buildings have an A/B switch to change feeders if one goes down.
My house has one of these. Confused the hell out of me. (My house was built in the mid-80s.)
So glad they did away with residental split buss panels. Now believe the 6 operations to disconnect a service must be in 6 seperate enclosures.
Hey D, making me nervous you touching bare panel leads.
Ha ha , i flinched when he did that
I see a purpose to the code being written in a certain format. But not everyone who passes the code test is all worth their salt. So, it's just more difficult for some others to read through the code book and gain the knowledge.
The split bus panel design made me wonder if there is another type of panel or device that can have two services come in but would have a switch that determines which of those services is engaged.
curious if there is a solution to manually switch the source for a downstream subpanel of a residential 2-unit building. The purpose is to be able to change on demand from which unit the detached garage or workshop is powered.
If there is no such switch, wondering how it would be designed to accommodate such a requirement. I can imagine that such a switch would need to have 2 independent buses to make sure hots and neutrals come from a subpanel that services a specific unit but not sure whether each bus would need an independent ground or they could share just one ground.
Industrial switch gear exists for datacenters etc. Multiple utility services switched automatically.
@@cheddarcheese I think for my case I need a double pole disconnect switch that should solve my issue. Thanks for the follow up!
You're talking about a "Main Disconnect" situation "with up to six to six handle throws."
Also solar is one of the 6... Can't wait for 2020 when no longer meets code
If i come across this i will just suggest a new panel, might as well i would hate to try and find old breakers like that
Just ripped a split bus panel out of a home last week
Draw this out on a white board, and eliminate the confusion.
That is exactly what I was thinking. Draw it out and it's easier to explain, and easier for us to understand.
You said the quiet part out loud. NEC and NFPA are all staffed by device manufacturers and most changes are to make their new toys relevant. Ehem, arc fault.
Feel like I'm back in high school diagraming sentences.
NEC is like the pirates code.. more like guidelines..... Especially if retrofitting existing....
I still winced when you touched the BUS bar
Panels be BUSSIN
things effecting copper prices? i got bought a 500' roll of #6 and shit my pants a little buying it. that used hot tub wasn't so cheap after that.
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