I’ve had the chance to work with Josh for the last 2 years. You’re absolutely right that this is one of those unicorn pitches. He combines: outlier carry (18-21” VB), velo (up to 100), vertical approach angle and horizontal approach angle. Regarding how he does it, my hope is to collect our own slo motion video with him at our facility this off-season (can’t share the edger footage he’s sent me), but he’s doing what I call a Reverse Seam Shift sinker. This is actually because he is a very very strong pronator (not a supinator, which would lead to a classic SSW sinker), so he gets so far to the inside of the ball that the seam effects actually work in the opposite direction (adding lift and cut instead of sink and run). I asked him throw a fourseam in a bullpen to see how much of a seam effect he was getting, and he averaged 14-15” of VB with a fourseam. So he’s getting about 4-5” of extra lift from this seam effect on his sinker. That’s 4-5” more lift than hitters would be used to seeing on a fastball from his arm slot. He’s learned to throw the pitch primarily at the top rail to play into this outlier quality and generate whiffs under the ball. I do think other pronators could throw this pitch, so we’re looking into whether this can be designed or not for other players.
I've read a decent amount about seem shifted wake but the people who write about it aren't so good with words, or not overcomplicating things. Never heard the concept of air pockets pushing on the ball. Makes so much more sense explaining it that way than the way they all did.
Haders bad year was also when his baby was first born, I think he might have been distracted/tired with the new born so his down year should not be looked down on as much as people do. He was electric in Millwaukee and if we didn't have Willams in the tube to take over.
it would seem almost insane that pitching instructors all throughout the league are not looking at their pitchers hands to try to teach them pitches that would most likely work better for them. even more so now that they can see arm angles, release points, spin rates and all of that. your hands or more specifically finger size, play such a big role in that. what fastball to use and even if you are capable of a splitter, that type of stuff.
2 - Scary good lefty for so long! I would feel so nervous standing in the box against most MLB pitchers. But standing in with Hader on the mound I’d probably poop my pants.
Looking at his release and how much he stays through the ball, real high efficiency, is it possible he gets the movement by pronating through it harder than most can?
There's another unicorn pitch in MLB that deserves its own video -- Emmanuel Clase's cutter. He might be the closest thing to Mariano, especially these days.
Hey Trevor, big fan of the videos. I’m 17 and in bullpens w track man my fastball has consistently had 23+ HB and 18+ VB. Would you consider these outlier metrics?
So it's a two-seamer that acts like a 4-seamer on the way to the plate. Gotta be a bit of a mind fuck. It almost seems too simple for a hitter to try and react to the pitch like it was a 4-seam when it looks like that in the hand.
I think the finger length thing could do bad. We already have a significant bias against pitchers with heights that start with 5. I'm not sure we need baseball to suddenly become biased against those with shorter fingers. There is no actual science saying shorter pitchers are less durable or that they can't throw hard. Saying they won't get as much extension is stupid because there will always be guys with poor extension. A lot of them are quite tall too. You look at a guy like David Robertson who is 5'11 and gets over 7 feet of extension. I love baseball but sometimes it can make me cringe. I feel like I'm living in another world when everyone is calling 6'0 Spencer Strider short. There's such an obsession with science and numbers and big picture gets ignored. Think Blake Sell in the world series. If your 5th starter is having an awesome start why take him out after 5/⅔ just because 3rd times through? Shouldn't you trust your hot pitcher and have a shorter leash with your struggling one instead of doing the math of all outings and averaging them out and assuming every outing will be average? I don't think every old school baseball thought is dumb and I don't think every new one is smart. Getting so obsessed with analytics when it's constantly changing seems a little crazy to me. It's information, not religion, and it changes a lot. 5 years ago it was high fastballs low curveballs because that tunnels very well but now it's don't throw a curveball throw a slider or ugh... sweeper because a curveball is too slow. Ignoring the heavy platoon splits of sliders and the slightly negative platoon splits of curveballs. Not everyone is the same and the fans don't like everything cookie cutter. Brent Suter got non tendered after having a very nice year and had a great resume but oh no bullpe FIP over 4 and he can't throw hard. He has only continued to have success. By the way how many guys that throw hard out of the pen have FIPs over 4, have a significantly worse resume and get given another chance. I know this is a tangent but baseball needs not just analytics but people using their brains, not computers, seeing the actual big picture.
This in depth nerdy shit is so fun to learn about
I’ve had the chance to work with Josh for the last 2 years. You’re absolutely right that this is one of those unicorn pitches.
He combines: outlier carry (18-21” VB), velo (up to 100), vertical approach angle and horizontal approach angle.
Regarding how he does it, my hope is to collect our own slo motion video with him at our facility this off-season (can’t share the edger footage he’s sent me), but he’s doing what I call a Reverse Seam Shift sinker.
This is actually because he is a very very strong pronator (not a supinator, which would lead to a classic SSW sinker), so he gets so far to the inside of the ball that the seam effects actually work in the opposite direction (adding lift and cut instead of sink and run).
I asked him throw a fourseam in a bullpen to see how much of a seam effect he was getting, and he averaged 14-15” of VB with a fourseam. So he’s getting about 4-5” of extra lift from this seam effect on his sinker. That’s 4-5” more lift than hitters would be used to seeing on a fastball from his arm slot. He’s learned to throw the pitch primarily at the top rail to play into this outlier quality and generate whiffs under the ball.
I do think other pronators could throw this pitch, so we’re looking into whether this can be designed or not for other players.
A 2 seam with ride is crazy. Cool breakdown Trevor!
I f*cking WISH this channel would've been around when I was pitching. I learn more watching 10 mins of this than I did from 10 years of coaching
I have been obsessed with Josh Hader since I first saw him throw like 6 consecutive 101mph pitches early in his career
9:11 thank you so much for this, you just helped my realize why my change up never had any change in velocity 😭
This breakdown rocks. Thank you,Trevor!
breakdowns like this are waaay cool
Good breakdown!
Love this content! Now I need to see a Trevor May and @melinbrand collaboration.
Fantastic breakdown. TH-cam videos have been great.
Am I weird that I don’t have a baseball team but love watching all the in depth analysis and history
I've read a decent amount about seem shifted wake but the people who write about it aren't so good with words, or not overcomplicating things. Never heard the concept of air pockets pushing on the ball. Makes so much more sense explaining it that way than the way they all did.
Thanks for this breakdown
Andrew Miller used to throw like this and I think Randy Johnson also, unhittable sliders from tall left handers...
this rocks. you should do one on how Jhoan Duran throws his splinker!!
Haders bad year was also when his baby was first born, I think he might have been distracted/tired with the new born so his down year should not be looked down on as much as people do. He was electric in Millwaukee and if we didn't have Willams in the tube to take over.
it would seem almost insane that pitching instructors all throughout the league are not looking at their pitchers hands to try to teach them pitches that would most likely work better for them. even more so now that they can see arm angles, release points, spin rates and all of that. your hands or more specifically finger size, play such a big role in that. what fastball to use and even if you are capable of a splitter, that type of stuff.
Hader has been my favorite pitcher for the last 4 years
Pedro always attributed his movement to the longer middle finger.
Having a 2 seam that gives the appear of rising is insane, it’s gotta be his unique arm slot
its the wabbling of the ball that kicks air on the sides incorrectly instead of sinking it acts like a righty one and rises
2 - Scary good lefty for so long! I would feel so nervous standing in the box against most MLB pitchers. But standing in with Hader on the mound I’d probably poop my pants.
How do you feel about Emanuel Clase cutter
Looking at his release and how much he stays through the ball, real high efficiency, is it possible he gets the movement by pronating through it harder than most can?
There's another unicorn pitch in MLB that deserves its own video -- Emmanuel Clase's cutter. He might be the closest thing to Mariano, especially these days.
Mariano never threw that hard and classé will never have his cutter move as much as Rivera's. They're not really similar.
Hey Trevor, big fan of the videos. I’m 17 and in bullpens w track man my fastball has consistently had 23+ HB and 18+ VB. Would you consider these outlier metrics?
velo?
@@izanmaciasgallardo1658 90 LHP
What would be a cool video is breaking down to who invented all these pitches
Please do a glove collection video
So it's a two-seamer that acts like a 4-seamer on the way to the plate. Gotta be a bit of a mind fuck. It almost seems too simple for a hitter to try and react to the pitch like it was a 4-seam when it looks like that in the hand.
Break down rivera's cutter
i have a much longer middle finger than index finger, i always have trouble with my 4 seam cutting
What a fun video
I gotta see a Clase breakdown
Hello Trevor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i heard he rather the turning the ball slightly left(from the perspective of a right)he actualy turns it right
Trevor “Baseball” May
Bud freaking Norris. Not that Angelos wouls have paid him, but still.
Reupload why?
Clase exists
He throws a side arm 2 seam. Makes hella sense to me. It arm side run.
What’s with the Muslim imam crap at 0:19? Bad idea.
I dislike your editor.
No one cares.
I think the finger length thing could do bad. We already have a significant bias against pitchers with heights that start with 5. I'm not sure we need baseball to suddenly become biased against those with shorter fingers. There is no actual science saying shorter pitchers are less durable or that they can't throw hard. Saying they won't get as much extension is stupid because there will always be guys with poor extension. A lot of them are quite tall too. You look at a guy like David Robertson who is 5'11 and gets over 7 feet of extension. I love baseball but sometimes it can make me cringe. I feel like I'm living in another world when everyone is calling 6'0 Spencer Strider short. There's such an obsession with science and numbers and big picture gets ignored. Think Blake Sell in the world series. If your 5th starter is having an awesome start why take him out after 5/⅔ just because 3rd times through? Shouldn't you trust your hot pitcher and have a shorter leash with your struggling one instead of doing the math of all outings and averaging them out and assuming every outing will be average? I don't think every old school baseball thought is dumb and I don't think every new one is smart. Getting so obsessed with analytics when it's constantly changing seems a little crazy to me. It's information, not religion, and it changes a lot. 5 years ago it was high fastballs low curveballs because that tunnels very well but now it's don't throw a curveball throw a slider or ugh... sweeper because a curveball is too slow. Ignoring the heavy platoon splits of sliders and the slightly negative platoon splits of curveballs. Not everyone is the same and the fans don't like everything cookie cutter. Brent Suter got non tendered after having a very nice year and had a great resume but oh no bullpe FIP over 4 and he can't throw hard. He has only continued to have success. By the way how many guys that throw hard out of the pen have FIPs over 4, have a significantly worse resume and get given another chance. I know this is a tangent but baseball needs not just analytics but people using their brains, not computers, seeing the actual big picture.
Do you think his poor spin rate helps or hinders that effect?