Well, despite not "winning" in your comparison, I'll still thank you for the kind words! As another commenter pointed out, we have all those S&W classes and races, and more, just in the supplement section of our Downloads page. Basic Fantasy RPG isn't just a game, and it's not just my work... BFRPG is a community. Also, regarding character sheets... check our downloads page for an extensive list of options. In another comment you mention reading Delving Deeper; I'd suggest that you might find some aspects of my "other" game, Iron Falcon RPG, at least a little bit interesting. But again, thanks for your fair coverage of Basic Fantasy RPG!
See my question and comment regarding the monster comparison (i.e. So "Monstrosities" [the source of the SW monsters in the comparison] is a separate book that can be used with either Basic Fantasy or Swords and Wizardry - so on this point the reviewer wasn't really comparing BF and SW (i.e. the monster material in BF with the monster material in the SW complete rulebook).
Hi Chris Gonnerman: After finally getting around to looking through Iron Falcon, i pulled the trigger and bought 4 hardcover books. My buddy Chuck walked me through the game and it seems to be very awesome by design. It is an early birthday present to myself. You might ask why 4 copies... I (like many OSR DMs) supply the table with refrences for play (for character creation and spells etc). Really looking forward to recording and posting a play through with my crew. Take care!
BFRPG is my favorite RPG system. I haven't played S&W yet, but based on my first read-through it seems like it's a solid choice too. Honestly, at the end of the day, as long as people are playing OSR, I don't care what they're playing.
Re: character sheets in the early 80s. Consider: most of us had no home computer with laser, inkjet, or even dot-matrix printer, and the closest photocopier was at the public library and cost enough money per page that as high school students we didn't want to dump our video-arcade money into photocopies. No tablets, no smart phones. But 3-ring-binder notebook paper was plentiful, as were pencils and erasers. Plastic sheet protectors were also a thing. Grease pencils were cheap and available -- dry erase and water-based not so much. I don't want to go back to that, and honestly my 16-year-old self is over-the-moon that my 56-year-old-self has a color laser printer and inkjet printer and online and computer-based tools at his disposal for all things RPG :-)
I started in 1980 with AD&D. I’ve carefully considered a few OSR games over the past two years, actually started with OSE. BFRPG hits the spot for me, not just the rule book, which is almost exactly how I want to play, but also the numerous adventures and supplements, including an active website where people are working on the game to this very day. Without looking at the website, and noticing it’s structure and all the information available, one is missing a large component of BFRPG.
I love the way you wrote this. BFRPG is the game you want to play, with an active community. I love the fact that Chris Gonnerman compiled this with the intent on having people enjoy the game over profit. That is my philosophy (to the point i don't get sued for copyright infringement).
Great video John. And you should do a part 2 if you feel like it. I would love to hear a deeper contrast of the two systems from your perspective. I'm sure others would as well.
@@smugzoid5156 Yep I can play. I need to fill out my character that you sent me. I will get that done at some point today or tomorrow and send it to you.
Thanks for the video, it's a pretty good run-through comparison. I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that BFRPG has a ranger, paladin, monk, etc all on the website (freely available). I love the community and think the at-cost nature of the product is laudable and the community around the product is second to none. That being said S&W is the 20-year-old Mike Tyson of OSR D&D games, it was never going to lose this fight (I doubt I could think of a better OSR). I enjoy both but I would never pick to play BFRPG over S&W Complete. Neither is a "faithful" clone (which is a net positive), and decisions made in S&W all came to better conclusions. You also forgot to mention that S&W makes the old saves available as an optional rule. Thanks again, good rundown.
I agree, my analysis is very rudimentary and is missing a bunch of details. I was unaware of the other possible characters on the BFRPG website, which is very cool. I read through "Delving Deeper" which is "supposed" to be the most similar to the real OD&D 1974 ruleset. It did inspire me to try 2d6 checks and also using a roll higher 1d6 system (which I now use in all my games). However, I do not think I would ever run a delving deeper session, because I like the way WB FMAG organizes the info better. I really enjoyed the Iron Mike Tyson reference.... I believe Matt Finch would like that.
@@smugzoid5156 The most faithful OSR to OD&D I've come across is Full Metal Plate Mail (free) and the closest to B/X is Old School Essentials (not free). I'd recommend the subjects in the video before either, for reasons I already specified.
@@Eron_the_Relentless i will check out full metal plate mail. I won't even look at OSE. Because i still probably like it and want to buy all the books. Gotta have limits.
I agree, I investigated them all (pre- OSE), What really sold me (and this may seem trivial), is the way the books were built with sewn in binding. Also the Erol Otis Painting on the front is simply Bad A**. The format of the layout (shown in the video) makes it very very easy to find what you are looking for (BIG +).
Yes. Most of us don't actually have time and/or don't have opportunities to actually try all the varieties of Old School available now... "VS" implies a more comprehensive examination of comparisons and contrasts. Useful.
I like the gameplay of swords and wizardry, because it goes in to things like using ascending armor class vs descending armor class. So, it kind of combines the simplicity of the older editions with some of the easier parts of later editions. However, the Basic Fantasy community is amazing the way they came together to put basic fantasy in the creative commons when WOTC was trying to pull the SRD away from us was swift and precise
Great analysis. Both games are superb, highly similar, easily modified, and provide a more satisfying experience than 5e. As someone who began with the little brown books, I love that Matt Finch puts snippets of D&D history into the S&W book. I'm not sure if other players would have an interest in that, though. Gonnerman gets a free pass to heaven for offering BF at cost, but I must also admit that much of the BF artwork makes me cringe.
The artwork fluctuates, but I think that is keeping with he spirit of the original stuff. like this... 3.bp.blogspot.com/-GSb5ze7drNM/UikEq6Yf7VI/AAAAAAAADZ0/bQVr6jzF-oE/s1600/Behold.gif
@@DrJamesBWood i prefer the old school line drawing art (what is seen in swords wizardry whitebox and complete). WB:FMAG Causland has excellent art. Also Spahn's omnibus and white star. My favorite is the original Monster manual and fiend folio
I've watched this comparison many times through and what comes through most strongly is a preference for a title that presents rule concisely and directly. Less complex and more efficient when run by a GM - BUT I think BFRPG holds a special place for those who have had a start with later with more modern editions of 'the game' - BFRPG is kind of a gateway into the OSR and lets people move on if they need to or stay with it if they are comfortable. Anyway, excellent analysis in terms of the texts themselves. Iron Falcon - kind of scratches the OD&D itch for me at least.
@@rolanejo8512 Many times I can't help but look at the game analytically.... What is the difference between "A" and "B" and how much of a difference will it make?
@@smugzoid5156 it is great for people new to the scene, a year ago i had this dilema bfrpg or s&w?! A year later got them both and i agree with you. Still using BF more for the time being. But will do more of the d&d old modules alternating between these 2 systems.
@@blamp666 i love the modules of BF. However i find S&W easier and quicker to DM and find info when playing. I think its is awesome that Gonnerman gives it away at cost on Amazon. The same for WBFMAG
BFRPG does have more character class and race options with the many supplements on the website. There is druid, assassin, barbarian, necromancer, illusionist, etc. And many expanded race options.
BFRPG is the best $5 in gaming but it relies a lot on the (free) community created material online. S&W is more of a for-profit venture but it has some really good printed supplements, especially for monsters. I had to choose between them for a campaign I just started recently and I went with S&W because otherwise I would have been shoehorning BFRPG into a ton of S&W supplements and adventures. S&W definitely wins the adventure comparison. BFRPGs adventures are fine but they don't have anything like Rappan Athuk or Lost City of Barakus. Not even close.
I think both mike and i werre home sick when we started the experinents. Took advantage of being home and made videos.... I eventually compare battle sequences between the two games. I know it is super nerdy, but we thought it was fun.
Better question: Which version of S & W has the little monster scenarios (and the artwork you displayed)? I have the S & W Complete, and they are not in there. Nor are they in S & W White Box or S & W Continual Light.
@@smugzoid5156 I see. So this is a separate book that can be used with either Basic Fantasy or Swords and Wizardry - so on this point you weren't really comparing BF and SW (i.e. the material in BF with the material in SW). Thank you for the link, though. I appreciate it.
@smugzoid5156 I think it finding what we like. Sort like going 31 Flavors. Some flavors we don't like other we do but maybe try new flavor we never heard about.
@@jemnai that does make sense, I guess after trying different flavors, I keep returning to vanilla white box rule set in didn't genres (D&D, white star, white lies, eldritch tales). I find it distracting to the game, to have too crunchy or granular of a system. Go figure
@@smugzoid5156 Can you reply with the link to the book you have? I don't think the boxed set has these scenarios in them either (I watched a flipthrough to check and didn't see them there). I don't know what you mean by the "smythe sown" version.
@@captainnolan5062 Unfortunately it appears to be out of print. www.amazon.com/Swords-and-Wizardry-Complete-Rulebook/dp/1622831713 and it is not listed on the Frog God Games site (just the boxed set). They sometimes show up on ebay though...
Well, despite not "winning" in your comparison, I'll still thank you for the kind words! As another commenter pointed out, we have all those S&W classes and races, and more, just in the supplement section of our Downloads page. Basic Fantasy RPG isn't just a game, and it's not just my work... BFRPG is a community. Also, regarding character sheets... check our downloads page for an extensive list of options. In another comment you mention reading Delving Deeper; I'd suggest that you might find some aspects of my "other" game, Iron Falcon RPG, at least a little bit interesting. But again, thanks for your fair coverage of Basic Fantasy RPG!
I'm in awe of all your amazing work. Thank you so much for all you have done!! I will check out the iron falcon at my earliest convenience.
See my question and comment regarding the monster comparison (i.e. So "Monstrosities" [the source of the SW monsters in the comparison] is a separate book that can be used with either Basic Fantasy or Swords and Wizardry - so on this point the reviewer wasn't really comparing BF and SW (i.e. the monster material in BF with the monster material in the SW complete rulebook).
Hi Chris Gonnerman:
After finally getting around to looking through Iron Falcon, i pulled the trigger and bought 4 hardcover books. My buddy Chuck walked me through the game and it seems to be very awesome by design.
It is an early birthday present to myself.
You might ask why 4 copies...
I (like many OSR DMs) supply the table with refrences for play (for character creation and spells etc).
Really looking forward to recording and posting a play through with my crew.
Take care!
@@smugzoid5156 Let me know when you post it, I look forward to seeing what you do with the game!
@@smugzoid5156 I am awaiting the revised edition before I buy that many.
BFRPG is my favorite RPG system. I haven't played S&W yet, but based on my first read-through it seems like it's a solid choice too. Honestly, at the end of the day, as long as people are playing OSR, I don't care what they're playing.
100% Agree
Yes I have room for 3 more players
Re: character sheets in the early 80s. Consider: most of us had no home computer with laser, inkjet, or even dot-matrix printer, and the closest photocopier was at the public library and cost enough money per page that as high school students we didn't want to dump our video-arcade money into photocopies. No tablets, no smart phones. But 3-ring-binder notebook paper was plentiful, as were pencils and erasers. Plastic sheet protectors were also a thing. Grease pencils were cheap and available -- dry erase and water-based not so much. I don't want to go back to that, and honestly my 16-year-old self is over-the-moon that my 56-year-old-self has a color laser printer and inkjet printer and online and computer-based tools at his disposal for all things RPG :-)
Funny, we used big 4x6 notecards, and kept adding notecards when we recovered more treasure. Never had a problem recording and recalling information.
I started in 1980 with AD&D. I’ve carefully considered a few OSR games over the past two years, actually started with OSE. BFRPG hits the spot for me, not just the rule book, which is almost exactly how I want to play, but also the numerous adventures and supplements, including an active website where people are working on the game to this very day. Without looking at the website, and noticing it’s structure and all the information available, one is missing a large component of BFRPG.
I love the way you wrote this. BFRPG is the game you want to play, with an active community. I love the fact that Chris Gonnerman compiled this with the intent on having people enjoy the game over profit. That is my philosophy (to the point i don't get sued for copyright infringement).
Great video John. And you should do a part 2 if you feel like it. I would love to hear a deeper contrast of the two systems from your perspective. I'm sure others would as well.
Thanks, trying to get a white-star game with you and Mike for Friday, with Frederick running it. You in? it will be around 9pm
@@smugzoid5156 Yep I can play. I need to fill out my character that you sent me. I will get that done at some point today or tomorrow and send it to you.
Thanks for the video, it's a pretty good run-through comparison.
I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that BFRPG has a ranger, paladin, monk, etc all on the website (freely available). I love the community and think the at-cost nature of the product is laudable and the community around the product is second to none.
That being said S&W is the 20-year-old Mike Tyson of OSR D&D games, it was never going to lose this fight (I doubt I could think of a better OSR). I enjoy both but I would never pick to play BFRPG over S&W Complete. Neither is a "faithful" clone (which is a net positive), and decisions made in S&W all came to better conclusions. You also forgot to mention that S&W makes the old saves available as an optional rule.
Thanks again, good rundown.
I agree, my analysis is very rudimentary and is missing a bunch of details. I was unaware of the other possible characters on the BFRPG website, which is very cool. I read through "Delving Deeper" which is "supposed" to be the most similar to the real OD&D 1974 ruleset. It did inspire me to try 2d6 checks and also using a roll higher 1d6 system (which I now use in all my games). However, I do not think I would ever run a delving deeper session, because I like the way WB FMAG organizes the info better.
I really enjoyed the Iron Mike Tyson reference.... I believe Matt Finch would like that.
@@smugzoid5156 The most faithful OSR to OD&D I've come across is Full Metal Plate Mail (free) and the closest to B/X is Old School Essentials (not free). I'd recommend the subjects in the video before either, for reasons I already specified.
@@Eron_the_Relentless i will check out full metal plate mail. I won't even look at OSE. Because i still probably like it and want to buy all the books. Gotta have limits.
@@smugzoid5156 Best to resist completism. It doesn't help.
Loving S&W more and more. I started with the BX OSR variants but have moved closer to ODND style play
I agree, I investigated them all (pre- OSE), What really sold me (and this may seem trivial), is the way the books were built with sewn in binding. Also the Erol Otis Painting on the front is simply Bad A**. The format of the layout (shown in the video) makes it very very easy to find what you are looking for (BIG +).
Yes. Most of us don't actually have time and/or don't have opportunities to actually try all the varieties of Old School available now... "VS" implies a more comprehensive examination of comparisons and contrasts.
Useful.
... but I'm feeling that I'll have to try them out to see what those differences really mean.
I like the gameplay of swords and wizardry, because it goes in to things like using ascending armor class vs descending armor class. So, it kind of combines the simplicity of the older editions with some of the easier parts of later editions.
However, the Basic Fantasy community is amazing the way they came together to put basic fantasy in the creative commons when WOTC was trying to pull the SRD away from us was swift and precise
Basic fantasy is an amazing contribution to the world of ttrpg. Right now I playing Gonnerman's iron falcon from him, and am really loving it.
Great analysis. Both games are superb, highly similar, easily modified, and provide a more satisfying experience than 5e. As someone who began with the little brown books, I love that Matt Finch puts snippets of D&D history into the S&W book. I'm not sure if other players would have an interest in that, though. Gonnerman gets a free pass to heaven for offering BF at cost, but I must also admit that much of the BF artwork makes me cringe.
The artwork fluctuates, but I think that is keeping with he spirit of the original stuff. like this... 3.bp.blogspot.com/-GSb5ze7drNM/UikEq6Yf7VI/AAAAAAAADZ0/bQVr6jzF-oE/s1600/Behold.gif
@@smugzoid5156 I remeber that. Low-budget art at its worst. I also remember the Dragon Lance art - WOW!
@@DrJamesBWood i prefer the old school line drawing art (what is seen in swords wizardry whitebox and complete). WB:FMAG Causland has excellent art. Also Spahn's omnibus and white star.
My favorite is the original Monster manual and fiend folio
I've watched this comparison many times through and what comes through most strongly is a preference for a title that presents rule concisely and directly. Less complex and more efficient when run by a GM - BUT I think BFRPG holds a special place for those who have had a start with later with more modern editions of 'the game' - BFRPG is kind of a gateway into the OSR and lets people move on if they need to or stay with it if they are comfortable. Anyway, excellent analysis in terms of the texts themselves. Iron Falcon - kind of scratches the OD&D itch for me at least.
My jam is Whitebox FMAG so I am closer to S&W, particularly with the Omnibus.
Whats your opinion of Morale in Whitebox FMAG?
@@rolanejo8512 i use a simple saving throw. Of course... undead get no saving throw.
@@smugzoid5156 i love this OSR science content.
@@rolanejo8512 Many times I can't help but look at the game analytically.... What is the difference between "A" and "B" and how much of a difference will it make?
Finally someone did this! Thank you very much!
You are quite welcome... Although it is quite rudimentary, it hits the obvious points.
@@smugzoid5156 it is great for people new to the scene, a year ago i had this dilema bfrpg or s&w?! A year later got them both and i agree with you. Still using BF more for the time being. But will do more of the d&d old modules alternating between these 2 systems.
@@blamp666 i love the modules of BF. However i find S&W easier and quicker to DM and find info when playing.
I think its is awesome that Gonnerman gives it away at cost on Amazon. The same for WBFMAG
@@smugzoid5156 did a run through the "Death frost doom" adventure by LMOFP with WB rules and it was a total carnage loved it.
@@blamp666 that is what makes OSR awesome, cross compatible
BFRPG does have more character class and race options with the many supplements on the website. There is druid, assassin, barbarian, necromancer, illusionist, etc. And many expanded race options.
Nice, didn't know that
This is like comparing
Original D&D vs. B/X
I Dunno.... Swords & Wizardry feels more Like AD&D to me except for the higher bonuses
I have Basic Fantasy and still going through the rules. But I like the simplicity and it's cheap!
That is very true. I prefer iron falcon to basic fantasy. You should check it it out and compare the two.
Great video!
Thanks, I haven't made a new video in a while. I'm waiting for the new whitebox cyclopedia to come out.
BFRPG is the best $5 in gaming but it relies a lot on the (free) community created material online. S&W is more of a for-profit venture but it has some really good printed supplements, especially for monsters.
I had to choose between them for a campaign I just started recently and I went with S&W because otherwise I would have been shoehorning BFRPG into a ton of S&W supplements and adventures.
S&W definitely wins the adventure comparison. BFRPGs adventures are fine but they don't have anything like Rappan Athuk or Lost City of Barakus. Not even close.
I agree, i have both Rappan and Barakus, they are amazing adventures. I also am in love with the hard bound smith sewn binding of SW books.
bro this is really cool but are you ok?
You're taking a lot of deep breaths
I think both mike and i werre home sick when we started the experinents. Took advantage of being home and made videos....
I eventually compare battle sequences between the two games.
I know it is super nerdy, but we thought it was fun.
@@smugzoid5156 it was I was genuinely concerned tho
Better question: Which version of S & W has the little monster scenarios (and the artwork you displayed)? I have the S & W Complete, and they are not in there. Nor are they in S & W White Box or S & W Continual Light.
Ahhh... monstrosities....
www.froggodgames.com/product/swords-wizardry-monstrosities/
Also check out, tomb of horrors 1-3, and #4
@@smugzoid5156 I see. So this is a separate book that can be used with either Basic Fantasy or Swords and Wizardry - so on this point you weren't really comparing BF and SW (i.e. the material in BF with the material in SW). Thank you for the link, though. I appreciate it.
I like both systems
Me too. What is strange, is that we as gamers are always trying out new systems. I wonder why that is?
@smugzoid5156 I think it finding what we like. Sort like going 31 Flavors. Some flavors we don't like other we do but maybe try new flavor we never heard about.
@@jemnai that does make sense, I guess after trying different flavors, I keep returning to vanilla white box rule set in didn't genres (D&D, white star, white lies, eldritch tales).
I find it distracting to the game, to have too crunchy or granular of a system. Go figure
@smugzoid5156 well never met anyone who doesn't like ice cream.
Is the S&W in your description the digest size paperbacks (boxed set)?
I'm using the hardback smythe sewn variety... but the content is the same i believe as the box set.
@@smugzoid5156 Can you reply with the link to the book you have? I don't think the boxed set has these scenarios in them either (I watched a flipthrough to check and didn't see them there). I don't know what you mean by the "smythe sown" version.
@@captainnolan5062 Unfortunately it appears to be out of print. www.amazon.com/Swords-and-Wizardry-Complete-Rulebook/dp/1622831713 and it is not listed on the Frog God Games site (just the boxed set).
They sometimes show up on ebay though...
@@smugzoid5156 You had better redo the comparison then, comparing S & W "as is" (i.e. with the current monsters in SW Complete) with BF.
@@captainnolan5062 i didn't know there was a difference. How different are they?
I accidentally got BF and see like you I'd prefer S&W. Luckily I have a game system
I Love called
D100 Dungeon.
I just picked up Iron falcon and will give it a spin.