I believe that spencer wanted to use the real tony and write a scene where tony broke his sobriety to have a drink to show how broken he felt over seeing his best friend turn to hydra and that’s why the AI tony is “drunk”
What I do remember is the backlash against this whole storyline. It's always been my opinion that Marvel editorial heard this backlash and despite writers and artists saying that it wouldn't end with Cap punching out the bad guy it's the ending that Spencer had to go with. I do believe that editorial sat Spencer down and told him to change things so that they're are two Caps. Bad Cap and Good Cap. This way there's an "out" for everything Cap does in this story. I'm really interested in what the original ending was to have been. Personally I think it was going to end with the Cosmic Cube repairing Cap's history but, Steve would remember everything he's done including accidentally killing Black Widow then we'd have Cap going through a crisis of self and having to rebuild not only himself but the world's trust in him. That would have been something to see and read.
I imagine Spencer's original ending would have been Hydra Cap in a cell having an ethical/moral debate over his actions and their results with one of the heroes (probably Tony) with the big question if he should turn Cap back to normal. Honestly _Secret Empire_ probably would have been pretty good if Image Comics published it and it was full of OCs. This would have given them the freedom to setup their own world instead of having to ignore established continuity like how Hydra was a Nazi organization. It would have been comical if it wasn't so sad how Marvel kept backtracking that.
I would've preferred A.I. Tony to say he wishes he could drink (or allude to it), rather than trying to make sense of a computer "drinking" on purpose.
An actual quote said by Marvel in the middle of the event: "Oh, and let me say again: we’re not going to use the Cosmic Cube to simply reverse everything away-the stakes matter, maybe more than they ever have before."
Rick stayed dead, Widow stayed dead, and Las Vegas stayed destroyed. Cap is still getting crap for it and Punisher went through a pretty neat arc with the war machine armor. Did the cosmic cube fix any of that?
@@Nerwrax15 Nope but they were all fixed within a few months. Widow came back in a deaged clone body with all her memories, Rick came back in Immortal Hulk like all other Hulk Family members, Cap is on the Avengers and banging Sharon again and Punisher got to kill more mooks while expanding his rogue gallery with Zemo and had Widow and Bucky support him and break him out of prison the moment the heroes caught him.
@@YouCalledForTheDoc so, comic books happened? Your comment was made with the intent of saying marvel was full of crap, but no, marvel was right, the cosmic cube didn't fix everything. And people being revived and things being fixed after the fact doesn't make them liars, Steve lifting up the cosmic cube and erasing secret empire from history, THAT would have been them lying. Im sure i don't have to explain how Marvel/DC comics work, but if you aren't sure, any book you're reading? All those stakes? One way or the other it'll be fixed down the road, could be months, could be years down the line, and could be by different writers or pitches who had nothing to do with the original choices being made.
There is a way to write Punisher doing something out of character and make it work, and it appeared in the Dolph Lundgren movie of all places: have him agree to doing something he would never do, and then he follows it up with: "Okay, but know this. When its over, yor dead!"
Cap actually points out to Spidey, how it's the same as him and his problems with J Jonah, and how even tho he receives public distrust and hate, he still risks his life striving to do the right thing and save people anyway, because he knows the truth. With my favorite part being when after the speech, Spidey asks if he can be Caps side kick.
Reminds me of a comic where Cap and Spidey team up, and after seeing the headline smearing spidey, rogers gives Jonah a talking to and insults his brush stache. Also reminded me of when Ultimate Cap told a dying Peter Parker he was wrong to sacrifice himself and he was an irresponsible kid. Before said kid fought off the sinister six with a sniper bullet in him to save his neighbourhood. There really is a reason nobody talks about marvel ultimate beyond spiderman lol
I was going to listen to this while at work tomorrow, but like an impatient child I'll watch it right now. I guess I'll just listen to it again, like I do every episode of Back Issues.
Aww, no more Bat Issues :( I'd love to see you guys do Arkham Asylum: Living Hell. A handy dandy little book written by one Dan Slott that only actually features Batman in about two scenes.
Now I'm wondering why didn't they use a Comics Explained pull quote? "Maaaaan, let me tell ya. Secret Empire. Secret!!!! Empire!!!! Maaaaaannnnn........(chuckles) it's amaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazzzzzzing!." -Comics Explained. That's a pull quote! Dammit Marvel.
I felt like they really dropped the ball on this one. I really enjoyed how it started, but the way it ended with the two Steves fighting each other wasn’t my cup of tea. It felt like a cop-out.
Yeah I agree. And I dont care how much Spencer tries to deny it. Cause it did seem like the ending had to be changed do to behind the scenes politics(I mean, did you see how shoved in that whole "Generations" lead up had to be forced into the end of Secret Empire?
The only time that a “Hail HYDRA” from Cap is acceptable is from Endgame. And the only time that “HYDRA World” is acceptable is in Agents of SHIELD, in the Framework.
Something that happened with Secret Wars, and then Secret Empire and even now with War of the Realms, is that I've found myself interested far more in the tie-ins or subplots more than the actual main plot. Like in Secret Empire, I wanted to see more of the Defenders and street level heroes trapped inside the Darkforce Dimension, and the toll it took on Cloak and Dagger.
Sal saying you might think the Punisher is a toolbox right as I was thinking Punisher is a toolbox was the moment I knew this was going to be one of my favorite Back Issues.
i like this newer style of Back Issues where instead of just going through the book page by page this is more of an overview discussion that hits on all the major points. There seems to be more room to engage the other people on the couch with this style.
I really liked Secret Empire. The idea of having Hydra Cap stick around as a villain is cool, but unfortunately hes killed off already. Tho i do like how Cap is still dealing with the fallout from this in Tanehasi Coates' run.
Hydra Thor was my breaking point in this. I enjoyed Stevil for what he was, but Thor getting swayed to his side so easily got me to say "Fuck this book" and stop reading it. Don't just bend the characters to fit what you want in a story.
I seem to remember a story where the hood (I think) gives frank his family back and they're all alive and he's like, "no. my family is dead." and the proceeds to gun down his newly brought back to life family. no way would frank be on evil cap's side just for that.
I have now accomplished quite possibly the strangest goal I ever set out for myself, and i don't think i ever would have thought to try if it wasn't for you. I have now read every venom mini-series they made with Eddie Brock. The sure 90's silly fun you represented either your episodes about them made it seem like the perfect fun to blow off some steam in the evenings after work. Thank you!
Watching this video reminded me of so many amazing game changing moments from this event. This was definitely one of my favorite events within the last ten years or so.
Actually looking back on that period for Iron Man, there kinda was a reign of the superman parallel. Riri is superboy, Doom is Erradicator, AI Tony is Cyborg Superman, but I can't for the life of me think of a Steel parallel.
At 50:50, yes, thank you Sal. Exactly what I thought 2 years ago when they rumored the ending. The best resolution would have been to absorb Stevevil into TruCap and have some atonement. Very suitable and poignant and reflective. That would have been my ending. Live with your demons and rebuild.
They retconned it so that HYDRA Steve was actually from another universe (Earth-61311), so when he was changing the universe, he was actually just overwriting 616 with his universe. Kobik replaced 616 Steve with HYDRA Steve, while 616 Steve was shunted into the Vanishing Point. I still hate Secret Empire, but that makes it more palatable for me.
The one thing I hate about hydra punisher is that they in context IF cap did keep his promise and bring back his family, They would not be okay with what frank has done not just as a member of hydra, But as the punisher alone they’d leave him as soon as they got a hint of what he did, the people he’s killed even if they were bad people they were people and the fact they thought that would be a good reason for him to join and not the simple fact Punisher is a fan of Cap and respects him and worked with him enough to know who cap is, this wasn’t a good reason enough makes me hate this punisher.
Ben: "What reason [does Frank Castle] have to be Punisher if [his] family's alive?" Frank Castle's motivation for being the Punisher is made clear in _Punisher Max_ as written by Garth Ennis (particularly in _Born_ ) and Jason Aaron (particularly in _Frank_ ). Frank Castle didn't become the Punisher because his family died, he became addicted to killing in Vietnam, essentially becoming the Punisher there. When the war ended and he went home, he tried to live a normal life but was miserable because he wasn't doing what he loved. When his family died, his only motivation to _not_ murder people was gone. Given the choice, it would be against the Punisher's character to bring his family back from the dead, because he would see them as a weakness for his enemies to exploit (unless there was some way to hide them from everyone). This is why the Punisher is not an anti-hero, he's a full-on villain who just happens to be fighting against the same people that the heroes fight against.
Here's the thing, you guys are great at detailing the plots of these back issues. I'm sitting here listening to you unfurl this mess and I'm like....whaaaat?!?
What is the name of other similar video series? Is it in the back issues playlist? Cause I am currently watching back issues on my own playlist that I made in release order and jumped forward cause I just listened to Civil War 2.
While Secret Empire's terribleness is more upfront, I'd argue that Civil War II did far more damage to Marvel's brand as a whole... Hydra Steve was just Marvel's Emerald Twilight, an attempted passing of the torch via heel turn... They made all the same mistakes and Paralax'd it away just as quickly... There's no easy out for Bendis' butchering of Carol's character in CW2...
I'm sorry, but Steve doesnt just believe in things because of how he was raised. You are not a good man if you just parrot what you're told. You have to be able to see wrong when its right in front of you.
But what’s not right about...whatever Hydra believes in? Racial purity sometimes, sometimes they pray to a giant alien squid or something? Something about science
Kobik, the child cosmic cube, acts arbitrarily and capriciously in fixing the damage she caused by screwing with Caps history. For shame super powered cosmic being who looks like a little human girl. For shame!
Been a fan for years now... I think my first comment was to ask for annihilation... So ... just to keep it up. Can we have it for the 300 episode? Jajaja
@@treelover420xx But, the creators being Jewish doesn’t matter. It’s shown that Cap has been essentially brainwashed, so they should know that he’s gonna be back to normal. Most of the people who complained were mainly reactionaries or people who don’t read comics/are aware of the tropes of the industry.
Always much more annoying when writers try to shove a huge shake up in your face like it's a big deal, promising its not gonna be mind control or other crap, only for it to in fact be lazy mind control.
Also, people complained about how Marvel kept saying this WAS a real change with stakes, only to back out on it in the end in a display of spectacularly cheap writing. Most people weren't simply mad about cap going hydra, they were calling out that it was a cheap attempt to get more viewers that wouldn't matter. And guess what? It didnt.
The TL;DR of the ending wonk is critics were losing their damn minds accusing Marvel of supporting Nazism so Marvel ultimately ended up caving to the backlash.
Also remember how it was sort of ultimate universe hulk that was resurrected, kinda grey ish and the used the ultimate universe font for the lettering.
Secret empire, a pretty ok story that was released in the WORST WORST WORST era. This is a time where Captain America to be his classic role model self, not a hydra replacement.
Yep, nothing like turning a symbol of America’s moral compass into a Nazi during an administration in the White House that had literal issues with Nazis to make some half ass incompressible edgelord Political statement.
@@thelinedrive my favorite part was where red skull said milquetoast nationalist stuff and that was supposed to show how that leads to people being super nazis in hydra
Also, as Linkara points out in his own review of the book, it does a horrible fucking job of actually demonstrating radicalization and how so many people would get swept up in fascism and propagates the myth that a fascist state/the Nazi regime is basically fucking awesome just really racist as opposed to being a shit show that is just barely keeping it together.
A book whose premise started with unabashed boldness and a daring concept I was down for, spiraled out into event book nonsense and an ending the writer “promised” would not happen! Cant wait to watch this episode! lol
CryptidZeker415 Which was such a mistake imo. Most of the backlash came from people who hadn’t & weren’t reading comics, let alone Captain America itself. It was a great story, just mired in outside meddling.
@@langleymneely believe me I know man. Cause it was funny how people were so butt hurt about cap being hydra. Saying its disrespectful to his creators and what not. Yet IMMIDIATLY after spencor was done, mark waid came in. And wrote a cap run where cap was being celebrated, had parades, free meals, had people love him, frankly, he was one town away from getting a tiara/sash and etc. Yet nobody cared about it. And the story was just bland and pointless
CryptidZeker415 Yes! Omg that shit was ridiculous! I had an idiot who admitted to not reading comics tell me it was anti semitic because Caps creators were Jewish! Never mind that those same Jewish writers wrote an early issue of the book where Cap was a brainwashed traitor and answered to Hydra AND the Nazis! Lmao!
It seemed clear that the intention was cap was always hydra but was whammied. Then they retconns it to make more sense. Good retcon but iirc articles att made it clear hydra cap was the real cap.
Maybe I'm reaching but the allegory (before they chickened out) would seem to support the idea that the hydra cap was real cap. In fact, I'd guess that's on e reason the solution got muddled. Kinda hard to make a hand wave ending if the thrust of yr point is sorta in opposition to cap as a symbol. But maybe they just went overboard on the selling that this was not a trick. If so I wouldn't think the ending would be so clearly zero hour redo, but maybe...
I never understood Marvel's butchering the X-men over the film rights, there was 0 benefit as people would still see the films even without them in the comics 🤦
So apparently the Hank hitting Janet thing was suppose to be an accident like Hank would through his arms up and accidental hit Janet but the artist was having trouble with it so he just had him hit her or at least that’s what I’ve heard or saw in like a Comics misconception video by Nerdsync
I'm convinced that Nick Spencer wrote Secret Empire with the belief that Tony would still be on the table after the massively delayed Civil War II, only for Bendis to end the story with Tony in a Carol-induced coma... Thus they hastily changed it to Holo-Tony after the inking phase... Why would you EVER program your A.I. to be drunk?
on the punisher thing i kinda think he secretly dont want his family back. Maybe even if they would have lived he wuld still have become punisher for some reason cause maybe hes just mad.
You know, now that you mentioned the reign of superman thing: Doom/IronMan=Cyborg Superman, AI Tony=Eradicator Superman, Riri IronHeart=Steel, Superboy=?
I think for me my issue with this is that I knew how it was going to end. It's a really pointless excursion that was going to be undone the moment the event was finished.
(Around 47:37) His "Captain Hydra Suit" seriously is just a rip off of Civil Warrior from the Marvel Contest of Champions App Game... (Civil Warrior is a Captain America that lost Tony in Civil War and took his Iron Man Suits and Arc Reactor to make himself basically an Iron America in his honor)
I feel like this whole concept would have been better served as a one-off or a little What If? miniseries. Get rid of all the cosmic cube reality re-writing bullshit and just show a straightforward story about how buying into American exceptionalism is a slippery slope into fascism. Like a superhero version of "It Could Have Happened Here".
Funny how nobody ever talked about the original "Secret Empire" Captain America story from back in the day. Interesting to draw up political parallels.
![ปฏิเสธไม่ไหว (Crush on you) - LIPTA feat. No One Else [TEASER MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VC689EgdSIw/mqdefault.jpg)
“It’s a genie, but without all that bullshit” is a really really good observation of the cosmic cube.
Ohhhh yeahhhhh, I forgot about the ironic wish backfire thing.
If you think about it .
This is Captain America : Shadowland.
A Simple Commenter i...you genius.
*insert applause
O M G
Oh no 😂😂😂😂
Shadowland, now with 80% less Ghost Rider and somehow even less Daredevil
Me when I found out Sal is a teacher:
*Gets Down on my knees, my hands out*
Teach me
Mystic Arts
@jimbo 1288 English, I believe.
I’d love to have sal as a teacher, he’ll maybe I’d actually pay attention in my classes
I believe that spencer wanted to use the real tony and write a scene where tony broke his sobriety to have a drink to show how broken he felt over seeing his best friend turn to hydra and that’s why the AI tony is “drunk”
What I do remember is the backlash against this whole storyline. It's always been my opinion that Marvel editorial heard this backlash and despite writers and artists saying that it wouldn't end with Cap punching out the bad guy it's the ending that Spencer had to go with. I do believe that editorial sat Spencer down and told him to change things so that they're are two Caps. Bad Cap and Good Cap. This way there's an "out" for everything Cap does in this story. I'm really interested in what the original ending was to have been. Personally I think it was going to end with the Cosmic Cube repairing Cap's history but, Steve would remember everything he's done including accidentally killing Black Widow then we'd have Cap going through a crisis of self and having to rebuild not only himself but the world's trust in him. That would have been something to see and read.
I imagine Spencer's original ending would have been Hydra Cap in a cell having an ethical/moral debate over his actions and their results with one of the heroes (probably Tony) with the big question if he should turn Cap back to normal.
Honestly _Secret Empire_ probably would have been pretty good if Image Comics published it and it was full of OCs. This would have given them the freedom to setup their own world instead of having to ignore established continuity like how Hydra was a Nazi organization. It would have been comical if it wasn't so sad how Marvel kept backtracking that.
An extremely controversial book on one of the best shows on TH-cam? Yes please.
BACK ISSUES : Literally the best
Back Issues talking about Avengers EMH : EVEN BETTER
I definitely agree. When Sal brought it up I was just glad that show was getting the appreciation it deserves.
I would've preferred A.I. Tony to say he wishes he could drink (or allude to it), rather than trying to make sense of a computer "drinking" on purpose.
An actual quote said by Marvel in the middle of the event:
"Oh, and let me say again: we’re not going to use the Cosmic Cube to simply reverse everything away-the stakes matter, maybe more than they ever have before."
Rick stayed dead, Widow stayed dead, and Las Vegas stayed destroyed. Cap is still getting crap for it and Punisher went through a pretty neat arc with the war machine armor.
Did the cosmic cube fix any of that?
@@Nerwrax15 rick and widow are alive again albeit not from the cube.
@@Nerwrax15 Nope but they were all fixed within a few months. Widow came back in a deaged clone body with all her memories, Rick came back in Immortal Hulk like all other Hulk Family members, Cap is on the Avengers and banging Sharon again and Punisher got to kill more mooks while expanding his rogue gallery with Zemo and had Widow and Bucky support him and break him out of prison the moment the heroes caught him.
@@ghareebcolt3954 so no, the cosmic cube didn't reverse everything.
@@YouCalledForTheDoc so, comic books happened? Your comment was made with the intent of saying marvel was full of crap, but no, marvel was right, the cosmic cube didn't fix everything.
And people being revived and things being fixed after the fact doesn't make them liars, Steve lifting up the cosmic cube and erasing secret empire from history, THAT would have been them lying.
Im sure i don't have to explain how Marvel/DC comics work, but if you aren't sure, any book you're reading? All those stakes? One way or the other it'll be fixed down the road, could be months, could be years down the line, and could be by different writers or pitches who had nothing to do with the original choices being made.
#RestInPeaceBatIssues you’ll never be forgotten for the great episodes that were produced.😓 🦇 📚
As a stupid huge bat fan. That news hurt so bad!
Still got that Bat issues for Batman's 80th though!
Marvel: "So Comic Pop, any quotes for the Secret Empire trade?"
Comic Pop: "Damn".
I'd buy any book that has that quote on the back
@@alexsilva28 Same. It's either wonderful or terrible. Either way, a fun read
@@jonfrombuckland_3784 exactly
As a Punisher fan, I am not happy with this story. Frank, despite his faults, would not fall into temptation this easily.
There is a way to write Punisher doing something out of character and make it work, and it appeared in the Dolph Lundgren movie of all places: have him agree to doing something he would never do, and then he follows it up with: "Okay, but know this. When its over, yor dead!"
Hes a psychopathic murderer of course he would
He idolized captain America he would side with cap
@@tilghman5237 that too
Yeah, I feel the Punisher is super duper anti-authoritarian, fascist, etc.
Cap actually points out to Spidey, how it's the same as him and his problems with J Jonah, and how even tho he receives public distrust and hate, he still risks his life striving to do the right thing and save people anyway, because he knows the truth. With my favorite part being when after the speech, Spidey asks if he can be Caps side kick.
Reminds me of a comic where Cap and Spidey team up, and after seeing the headline smearing spidey, rogers gives Jonah a talking to and insults his brush stache.
Also reminded me of when Ultimate Cap told a dying Peter Parker he was wrong to sacrifice himself and he was an irresponsible kid. Before said kid fought off the sinister six with a sniper bullet in him to save his neighbourhood.
There really is a reason nobody talks about marvel ultimate beyond spiderman lol
Marvel: So we just screwed Carol Danvers over, who’s next?
Nick Spencer: Get a load of this...
Fuck Carol Danvers anyway
I have to write a paper, but an hour break isn't too bad. It's only 10 PM here.
Awww Steve in the vanishing point meeting his past self before he got the super-soldier serum feels like such a missed opportunity.
Somewhere out there, original steve is still in jail...
I was going to listen to this while at work tomorrow, but like an impatient child I'll watch it right now. I guess I'll just listen to it again, like I do every episode of Back Issues.
Aww, no more Bat Issues :( I'd love to see you guys do Arkham Asylum: Living Hell. A handy dandy little book written by one Dan Slott that only actually features Batman in about two scenes.
I’m sure they’ll still do Batman stories, they just won’t have a whole separate series for it.
Has Sal been working out? Dude looks kinda beefy this episode
@i am good man He's like the Kingpin. It's all muscle
Now I'm wondering why didn't they use a Comics Explained pull quote?
"Maaaaan, let me tell ya. Secret Empire. Secret!!!! Empire!!!! Maaaaaannnnn........(chuckles) it's amaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazzzzzzing!." -Comics Explained.
That's a pull quote! Dammit Marvel.
Rob IS awesome.
Scratch that, AMAAAAZING!!
Figures. Steve loses confidence in everything the longer he can't get it up like he used to. Mjolnir, I mean.
9:32 Probably my favorite Tiffany quote.
I felt like they really dropped the ball on this one. I really enjoyed how it started, but the way it ended with the two Steves fighting each other wasn’t my cup of tea. It felt like a cop-out.
Yeah I agree. And I dont care how much Spencer tries to deny it. Cause it did seem like the ending had to be changed do to behind the scenes politics(I mean, did you see how shoved in that whole "Generations" lead up had to be forced into the end of Secret Empire?
Yes, having the best of America fight the worst of America was a bad thing and definitely a poor allegory.
The only time that a “Hail HYDRA” from Cap is acceptable is from Endgame.
And the only time that “HYDRA World” is acceptable is in Agents of SHIELD, in the Framework.
When I saw _Endgame_ I interpreted that moment to be MCU saying "we put this moment here just so that no one ever makes a movie out of it"
Something that happened with Secret Wars, and then Secret Empire and even now with War of the Realms, is that I've found myself interested far more in the tie-ins or subplots more than the actual main plot. Like in Secret Empire, I wanted to see more of the Defenders and street level heroes trapped inside the Darkforce Dimension, and the toll it took on Cloak and Dagger.
Sal saying you might think the Punisher is a toolbox right as I was thinking Punisher is a toolbox was the moment I knew this was going to be one of my favorite Back Issues.
i like this newer style of Back Issues where instead of just going through the book page by page this is more of an overview discussion that hits on all the major points. There seems to be more room to engage the other people on the couch with this style.
I really liked Secret Empire. The idea of having Hydra Cap stick around as a villain is cool, but unfortunately hes killed off already. Tho i do like how Cap is still dealing with the fallout from this in Tanehasi Coates' run.
Hydra Thor was my breaking point in this. I enjoyed Stevil for what he was, but Thor getting swayed to his side so easily got me to say "Fuck this book" and stop reading it. Don't just bend the characters to fit what you want in a story.
@@CapLives no one likes Civil War. Everyone was an asshole and the X-Men had the right idea.
i mean thors been getting bent since jane thor
I seem to remember a story where the hood (I think) gives frank his family back and they're all alive and he's like, "no. my family is dead." and the proceeds to gun down his newly brought back to life family. no way would frank be on evil cap's side just for that.
Sorrentinos art was beautiful as ever
49:55 “Straight up Steve Rogers” lol
This actually sounds like more of a mess than I already thought it was when it was originally coming out. Thank God for Back Issues, let me tell ya.
I gata say i love how often you guys are uploading this and redletter media are like crack to me
I have now accomplished quite possibly the strangest goal I ever set out for myself, and i don't think i ever would have thought to try if it wasn't for you.
I have now read every venom mini-series they made with Eddie Brock. The sure 90's silly fun you represented either your episodes about them made it seem like the perfect fun to blow off some steam in the evenings after work. Thank you!
I really liked Hydra Cap. But I hated hydra Punisher.
Toss it on the pile of "corporate needed us to change this thing due to current use of IP in movies" along with the Inhumans/X-Men debacle.
Thor being perfectly fine with Uncle Chthon possessing Wanda (who, btw, speaks no dialogue at all), what a hero Thor is in this story, eh?
Because he's unworthy Thor. Which means he needs to be oblivious to the stupidity of his own actions.
yay secret empire this should be really tons of fun :)
No. It's dull, cold, and lifeless.
@@Ubermensch9240 i was referring too the review of secret empire :)
@@TevyaSmolka Hard to give life to that. Even Linkara couldn't review it without getting somber.
Watching this video reminded me of so many amazing game changing moments from this event. This was definitely one of my favorite events within the last ten years or so.
But to be fair the ending with memory Steve was kind of weird and lame.
Actually looking back on that period for Iron Man, there kinda was a reign of the superman parallel. Riri is superboy, Doom is Erradicator, AI Tony is Cyborg Superman, but I can't for the life of me think of a Steel parallel.
“How does your brain work?” - Tiffany to Ben.
Oooh sweet... gotta say though, i liked the deadpool stories from this. Was pretty cool seeing him manipulated by evil cap.
Right! He was seriously wrecked emotionally for awhile. More so than usual.
But it doesn't make any sense.
The first 10 minutes of this episode is a reminder of why I dropped 95 percent of my Marvel books at the time.
At 50:50, yes, thank you Sal. Exactly what I thought 2 years ago when they rumored the ending. The best resolution would have been to absorb Stevevil into TruCap and have some atonement. Very suitable and poignant and reflective. That would have been my ending. Live with your demons and rebuild.
They retconned it so that HYDRA Steve was actually from another universe (Earth-61311), so when he was changing the universe, he was actually just overwriting 616 with his universe. Kobik replaced 616 Steve with HYDRA Steve, while 616 Steve was shunted into the Vanishing Point. I still hate Secret Empire, but that makes it more palatable for me.
And he's dead.
The one thing I hate about hydra punisher is that they in context IF cap did keep his promise and bring back his family, They would not be okay with what frank has done not just as a member of hydra, But as the punisher alone they’d leave him as soon as they got a hint of what he did, the people he’s killed even if they were bad people they were people and the fact they thought that would be a good reason for him to join and not the simple fact Punisher is a fan of Cap and respects him and worked with him enough to know who cap is, this wasn’t a good reason enough makes me hate this punisher.
I bought this book in June. I thought there were some cool parts but it’s awesome you guys are doing this now!!!
Secret Empire is a better Civil War 2 than the actual event.
Ben: "What reason [does Frank Castle] have to be Punisher if [his] family's alive?"
Frank Castle's motivation for being the Punisher is made clear in _Punisher Max_ as written by Garth Ennis (particularly in _Born_ ) and Jason Aaron (particularly in _Frank_ ). Frank Castle didn't become the Punisher because his family died, he became addicted to killing in Vietnam, essentially becoming the Punisher there. When the war ended and he went home, he tried to live a normal life but was miserable because he wasn't doing what he loved. When his family died, his only motivation to _not_ murder people was gone. Given the choice, it would be against the Punisher's character to bring his family back from the dead, because he would see them as a weakness for his enemies to exploit (unless there was some way to hide them from everyone). This is why the Punisher is not an anti-hero, he's a full-on villain who just happens to be fighting against the same people that the heroes fight against.
Here's the thing, you guys are great at detailing the plots of these back issues. I'm sitting here listening to you unfurl this mess and I'm like....whaaaat?!?
Don't be throwing shade at our Critters Ben! Recently rewatched those first two and they still hold up! They're the low budget sale price Gremlins
At least the dinner scene with Pym-tron was fun
What is the name of other similar video series? Is it in the back issues playlist? Cause I am currently watching back issues on my own playlist that I made in release order and jumped forward cause I just listened to Civil War 2.
th-cam.com/play/PLDHGagKHrNsVhegSneNIXzD40CEbYTdqG.html
@@comicpop folded in got it thx ;)
While Secret Empire's terribleness is more upfront, I'd argue that Civil War II did far more damage to Marvel's brand as a whole...
Hydra Steve was just Marvel's Emerald Twilight, an attempted passing of the torch via heel turn... They made all the same mistakes and Paralax'd it away just as quickly...
There's no easy out for Bendis' butchering of Carol's character in CW2...
I'm sorry, but Steve doesnt just believe in things because of how he was raised. You are not a good man if you just parrot what you're told. You have to be able to see wrong when its right in front of you.
But what’s not right about...whatever Hydra believes in? Racial purity sometimes, sometimes they pray to a giant alien squid or something? Something about science
It would have been cool, if evil Steve had became the new Red Skull in the end.
I love how nick Spencer had no intention of having Tony be an ai 😂
This is one my favorite Cap arcs by far, thanks for talking about it!
Kobik, the child cosmic cube, acts arbitrarily and capriciously in fixing the damage she caused by screwing with Caps history. For shame super powered cosmic being who looks like a little human girl. For shame!
Oh damn, what a very interesting episode!
Been a fan for years now... I think my first comment was to ask for annihilation... So ... just to keep it up. Can we have it for the 300 episode? Jajaja
Sooner than later!
Rick Jones singing Queen is cool as hell.
Always so annoying when fans complain about a character change that you KNOW isn't gonna be permanent and a GREAT concept
I think its the fact that the creators on cap were jewish an him being a nazi kinda messed up but cool idea as like a elseworld
@@treelover420xx But, the creators being Jewish doesn’t matter. It’s shown that Cap has been essentially brainwashed, so they should know that he’s gonna be back to normal. Most of the people who complained were mainly reactionaries or people who don’t read comics/are aware of the tropes of the industry.
Agreed but the thing that’s even worse than that is big media making huge stories with headlines like “Hold the phone, captain America is a Nazi”
Always much more annoying when writers try to shove a huge shake up in your face like it's a big deal, promising its not gonna be mind control or other crap, only for it to in fact be lazy mind control.
Also, people complained about how Marvel kept saying this WAS a real change with stakes, only to back out on it in the end in a display of spectacularly cheap writing.
Most people weren't simply mad about cap going hydra, they were calling out that it was a cheap attempt to get more viewers that wouldn't matter.
And guess what? It didnt.
I thought the build up to the event itself was much more interesting than the main Secret Empire book.
The TL;DR of the ending wonk is critics were losing their damn minds accusing Marvel of supporting Nazism so Marvel ultimately ended up caving to the backlash.
Lovecraftian pirates sounds like a good comic line
Yes! I’ve waited so long for this one!
Do Daredevil back in black...please
Secret Empire: Good Concept Bad Execution
And the absolute worst timing.
*insert official ComicPop battlecry here
Spoon?
ben saying 'skull part of the logo' and my mind goes straight to that great Mitchell and Webb skit Are we the baddies!?
Also remember how it was sort of ultimate universe hulk that was resurrected, kinda grey ish and the used the ultimate universe font for the lettering.
Secret empire, a pretty ok story that was released in the WORST WORST WORST era. This is a time where Captain America to be his classic role model self, not a hydra replacement.
Yep, nothing like turning a symbol of America’s moral compass into a Nazi during an administration in the White House that had literal issues with Nazis to make some half ass incompressible edgelord Political statement.
@@thelinedrive my favorite part was where red skull said milquetoast nationalist stuff and that was supposed to show how that leads to people being super nazis in hydra
Also, as Linkara points out in his own review of the book, it does a horrible fucking job of actually demonstrating radicalization and how so many people would get swept up in fascism and propagates the myth that a fascist state/the Nazi regime is basically fucking awesome just really racist as opposed to being a shit show that is just barely keeping it together.
@@thelinedrivewhat?
It wasn't so much a wink as it was a middle finger.
Spencer wrote The Superior Foes of Spider-Man so I'll always forgive his less successful works.
His run on spiderman has also been pretty good
Anyone know the name of the comic they’re talking about at 31:56?
A book whose premise started with unabashed boldness and a daring concept I was down for, spiraled out into event book nonsense and an ending the writer “promised” would not happen! Cant wait to watch this episode! lol
in all fairness, the ending seemed like it had to be changed due to all the backlash.
CryptidZeker415 Which was such a mistake imo. Most of the backlash came from people who hadn’t & weren’t reading comics, let alone Captain America itself. It was a great story, just mired in outside meddling.
@@langleymneely believe me I know man. Cause it was funny how people were so butt hurt about cap being hydra. Saying its disrespectful to his creators and what not. Yet IMMIDIATLY after spencor was done, mark waid came in. And wrote a cap run where cap was being celebrated, had parades, free meals, had people love him, frankly, he was one town away from getting a tiara/sash and etc.
Yet nobody cared about it. And the story was just bland and pointless
CryptidZeker415 Yes! Omg that shit was ridiculous! I had an idiot who admitted to not reading comics tell me it was anti semitic because Caps creators were Jewish! Never mind that those same Jewish writers wrote an early issue of the book where Cap was a brainwashed traitor and answered to Hydra AND the Nazis! Lmao!
It seemed clear that the intention was cap was always hydra but was whammied. Then they retconns it to make more sense. Good retcon but iirc articles att made it clear hydra cap was the real cap.
they also said it wasnt mind control when it pretty much is
Maybe I'm reaching but the allegory (before they chickened out) would seem to support the idea that the hydra cap was real cap. In fact, I'd guess that's on e reason the solution got muddled. Kinda hard to make a hand wave ending if the thrust of yr point is sorta in opposition to cap as a symbol. But maybe they just went overboard on the selling that this was not a trick. If so I wouldn't think the ending would be so clearly zero hour redo, but maybe...
I used this story for an English project last year
Sooo,was it the Evil Cap that turned old? Or was that the normal Cap? Sigh,ohhh well
Erik S I think old cap became evil cap that then became two caps one of which was normal cap. Makes sense right?
Waited a long time for this one!
the minute they did two Steves is the minute i nope'd out. that was really dumb
I never understood Marvel's butchering the X-men over the film rights, there was 0 benefit as people would still see the films even without them in the comics 🤦
COMIC POP FOR LIFE
So apparently the Hank hitting Janet thing was suppose to be an accident like Hank would through his arms up and accidental hit Janet but the artist was having trouble with it so he just had him hit her or at least that’s what I’ve heard or saw in like a Comics misconception video by Nerdsync
We know.
I'm convinced that Nick Spencer wrote Secret Empire with the belief that Tony would still be on the table after the massively delayed Civil War II, only for Bendis to end the story with Tony in a Carol-induced coma... Thus they hastily changed it to Holo-Tony after the inking phase... Why would you EVER program your A.I. to be drunk?
What Bendis’ half assed writing screws up continuity colored me not shocked after his terrible Guardians run.
Sal you're a brave one. I couldn't read this beyond issue 2
on the punisher thing i kinda think he secretly dont want his family back. Maybe even if they would have lived he wuld still have become punisher for some reason cause maybe hes just mad.
You know, now that you mentioned the reign of superman thing: Doom/IronMan=Cyborg Superman, AI Tony=Eradicator Superman, Riri IronHeart=Steel, Superboy=?
This was the first Marvel event I ever bought as it was coming out, and I got burned out after three weeks of tie ins with the main story.
I’m still kind of annoyed at how trash SXIS was. The lead-up Uncanny Avengers books were awesome
I think for me my issue with this is that I knew how it was going to end.
It's a really pointless excursion that was going to be undone the moment the event was finished.
I have never clicked on something so fast
:24 Um....wait....IS BAT ISSUES GONE??? Y? I LOVED THAT SHOW!!!
(Around 47:37) His "Captain Hydra Suit" seriously is just a rip off of Civil Warrior from the Marvel Contest of Champions App Game... (Civil Warrior is a Captain America that lost Tony in Civil War and took his Iron Man Suits and Arc Reactor to make himself basically an Iron America in his honor)
Awesome episode.
I feel like this whole concept would have been better served as a one-off or a little What If? miniseries. Get rid of all the cosmic cube reality re-writing bullshit and just show a straightforward story about how buying into American exceptionalism is a slippery slope into fascism. Like a superhero version of "It Could Have Happened Here".
Funny how nobody ever talked about the original "Secret Empire" Captain America story from back in the day. Interesting to draw up political parallels.