It actually won the competition but lost the lobbying of congress/bureaucrats that awarded the contract. Lockheed gave more money to the corrupt politicians. YF23 had better stats all the way around.
I followed and was rooting for the YF-23! I was disappointed. However when something is that good, it doesn't die it just goes back to the table and gets better!
@@rainman6080Except it didn’t. It was slightly better in some areas and slightly worse in others. The two planes were pretty evenly matched according to the only pilot to fly both. At the end of the day, the AF decided that maintenance and support costs matter. Plus the pilots really wanted a Super Eagle, and they got one. It is an absolute myth that the 23 was a superior fighter.
If i see this flying overhead today, i would say it's some futuristic fighter concept. The fact it first flew in the early 90s, along with the F-22, is mind-blowing.
Northrop: "We made the YF-23 It's better with stealth and speed over our competition...the YF-22. Oh, and it is finished for testing one month before the YF-22." Air Force: "Yeah but the 22 can dogfight better." Northrop: "You want a stealth fighter to....dogfight?!? Don't you guys have air to air missiles that have beyond visual range kill capabilities?" Air Force: "Shut up. We're going with the 22."
Remember, that crap with missiles was tried circa 1958-1972 and that was McNamara and his band of Merry Idiots. F-4 Crews were being killed far more from MiG-17 and MigG-21's than EVER expected. There wasn't a gun (internal) to the F-4 until the 'E' model. That, and the fact that it had an extremely low turning radius/capability made the Phantom II less than desirable in the dog-fighting regime. Considering the 17 and 21's tactics, it rarely fought BVR, instead they flew low (the F-4 radar was NOT lookdown/shootdown) and the MiG's flew low to avoid the Phantoms and their radar, then spring up 'CLOSE-IN' and outflew the F-4. That was the "NVAF's" tactics. Did the "NVAF" always win against the F-4? No. However, they DID win far more often than they should have. In fact, in the main part of the Vietnamese air war, the tactics were wrote (interesting that almost thirty years later -- they were 'wrote' causing the loss of an F-117A Nighthawk (in Yugoslavia) -- again, idiot Democrats that wanted to use the same course, paths, routes, and timing and promoted piss-poor tactics. Like him or not, when Nixon came into office, he got rid of the Democrat meddling and let the Air-Force Top Brass make the necessary corrections in capability, capacity, planning and tactics. (amongst other things). You seem to either forget this or you are not versed in this!
The Yf 23 was. Leap to far, and the AF had questions about NG’s project management capabilities. I think they had a scandal a few years before this competition where they basically screwed the AF and purposely went over budget and got caught. The AF never forgot about that.
@@warrenholmes3311 I know of that history but technology has progressed far beyond not having look down/shoot down radar (the F-14 was the first to employ that kind of radar). Will America's future enemies develop tactics that will make "stealth" tech obsolete? Maybe, but will we develop tech that will defeat their tactics? Or will we counter develop tactics? Who knows. No one can accurately predict the future. The YF-23 was the better jet fighter in terms of speed, fuel consumption and low observable characteristics. What are the things the Air Force is wanting in their 6th Gen fighters? Speed, range, as low as possible observable characteristics and firepower. Side note about the downing of the F-117 - it was being tracked by one type of radar but not the other type (the type that guides the s.a.m.'s to their target). The guys manning the missile site turned their radar off so as to not attract anti radar missiles. At the moment the pilot opened his ordinance door is when the guys at the s.a.m. site decided to turn their radar back on (the one that guides the missiles) and they discovered they could lock onto the F-117. So they did and that's how it was brought down for Chinese spys to purchase parts of the wreckage.
@@DoubleMrE Back in 1990 Velocity Development released a combat flight simulator called "Jetfighter II" The F-23D was one of the four aircraft included with the sim, and an image of it was prominently displayed on the cover of the box the software came in. I spent so many hours playing that game into the wee hours of the morning that my wife started threatening me with divorce! 😉
Absolutely agree. When they finally agreed on the yf-22 I was disappointed. But I remember one of the reasons against the 23 was that the turning radius was not as superior as the 22. And the split exhaust could pose problems with IR.
@@MAGAman-uy7wh Yeah .. the 23 STILL looks like it's in the bleeding edge, 40-ish years later... Sometimes I feet bad for wishing that the cold war never ended, because of all the cool tech that came out of it- from the Blackbird and the ATF to Tang and Velcro! Cheers!
@@bholdr----0 Well, Mitsubishi altered the F-16 into a similar but different fighter. One difference is the Mitsubishi version is slightly larger than the General Dynamics version with a wing area 25% larger. So, I'm pretty sure that whoever is building Japan's version is making alterations but those alterations will be improvements.
I think a lot of rhe ideas and tech from the YF-23 is going to go into NGAD... Especially the stealth aspects, which was supposedly far superior to the F-22- but without the now unnecessary supermanuverabity- but, at the time, Northrup and McDonnelDouglas had a bad habit of cost overruns (see The B-2, etc.) It was particularly stealthy in the infrared spectrum with it's buried engines and intakes and engine nozzles, but it was far from being a dogfighter, when dogfighting was still considered a necessary thing. Anyway, a YF-23 without any tails at all (which can be done now) would be very, very stealthy, on alll spectrums amd aspects, even today - and given it's capabilities 40-ish years ago... One has to wonder what it could do with that many years more experience! I suspect that NGAD will be far more simaler to the YF-F3 than the F-22! (Or at lea, I hope so!)
Over 250 knots airspeed the YF 23 was more maneuverable, faster, more fuel efficient and a smaller radar cross section. It was also easier to maintain.
I remember guys/subcontractors working on the design. It was 3D software. A quiet bunch of technicians off in a corner at the lab. They worked in shifts.
The fact that even all these years later it still looks like the most advanced fighter ever designed. It’s one of if not the sexiest fighter ever built. It’s strange the F-22 was chosen when the YF-23 had much better stealth capabilities, much higher top speed and much better range. What they should have done was build one production version of each and then put them up against each other for a few months actually fighting them against each other and see which one comes out on top. On top of that since they deemed thrust vectoring unneeded/useless now their original claimed reasoning for selecting the YF-22 is now void and null. Betting the YF-23 would still be being prosody ed today as the focus is on BVR instead of dog fighting now.
It didn't have enough internal storage for weapons so it was pointless as a superiority fighter as it couldn't stay in the fight for long enough to be worth it. And placing extra storage on the wings defeated the purpose of the design.
When the F16 &F17 went head to head. The 17 lost but was reborn as the FA18 The same thing should have happened with this aircraft. Imagine having 180 raptors and 180 F23’s. Now that would have been some interesting situations 😂
Too much alike in mission, too different in parts and tools to justify the cost of having both. Still think it was more politics than anything else. Both are brilliant.
Let's not forget that the YF-32 had longer legs and could carry twice the payload "INSIDE" including drop tanks for recon versions. This was almost the DUMBEST decision the Air Force made.
From what I have learnt it was not the USAF that made the decision, it was the Administration that decided on the RAPTOR, it was a political decision based upon the political desire to keep the aviation industry from losing Lockheed as a major supplier to the military and not to be swallowed up by another company, like Boeing for example, but that is just what I have heard, not from any source of inside information just TH-cam channels speculation.
Looking at hose lines you can see where they might have added some internal fuel in a B or C model to add some range like they are needing on the f-22 now.... I was liking the F-23 a lot as I watched the run off. That missile launch was the punch that ruined the low level buzz caused by the "blackwidow" paint and "Grey Ghost" monikers. Marketing... I hope they picked this format for the NGAD, nimbleness with some self defense would be desirable in what would be a forward air controller/ C3I aircraft. It looks like it would have the extra space for a couple more aircrew like the EA-6 and some more gas as well.
@@Ryan_Christopher aside from the engine swap the B-1R would have looked the same. I'm suggesting replacing the tail for ruddervators. Also melding the new engines into the main body of the B-1. Curious how would having a air intake on the dorsal side effect flight? The Scaled Composite 437 Vanguard has dorsal intakes.
As an American taxpayer and USAF veteran it still pisses me off that Lockheed Martin got the contract. They have continually been over budget and behind schedule. Even today in 2024 they still have problems with the F-35 and hundreds of them are finished and in storage because they can’t be drought up to standards. Plus the early F-35’s will have to have expensive modifications to them. The F-23 would have been a better fighter for the money. We get screwed again by the Pentagon.
Overall both aircraft were very similar in their capabilities. Each was better in certain aspects, but evenly balanced overall. The clincher for the contract was the previous history of the contractors ability to build and support their aircraft in a timely and inexpensive manner. That is what determined who won the contract, not the capabilities of each fighter.
Some technical details weighed in as well. The YF-23’s missile bay had the missiles stacked vertically meaning if one failed to launch, all the subsequent weapons were effectively neutralized. Also there was a 1.4 billion cost difference between the two. Essentially the F-23 team included the total cost to include all the growth and add on items expected where the 22 team did not include them allowing the costs to follow on eventually as most programs do.
@@williestyle35 So you have NOTHING, ZIP, NADA, NO EVIDENCE concerning SUPPOSED bribery by Lockheed to gov't officials on the YF-23, just your theory that bribery must be involved in the contract.
The Soviets made great planes, but this plane is on another level As well as the F2 2 , it just goes to show. You can make two great planes and picking either one is like splitting hairs, but this plane is an absolute legend…
I’m convinced the 23 designs didn’t just go away into the shredder, what they learned is most likely part of the aircraft our children will see in the sky. Unless humanity doesn’t destroy itself first.
Knowone really won because the production run of the F-22 was cut short in favour of the JSF program anyway. ( the same probably would of happened to the YF-23 ) The Marines needing a modern high performance jump jet for there fleet of carriers to replace the old british made Harriers was 1 of the biggest reasons the F22 program was cut short to fund the JSF program while giving the Navy and Airforce new fighters at the same time.
Marine Corps uses the Harrier II, which was a US/British joint development from the original HS Harrier. It wasn't strictly a British plane, but definitely had a lot of British in it.
@GreaverBlade Correct, but the UK stopped production of Harriers and sold their Harriers and spare parts to the US Marines ( Harriers, also known as the widow maker due to how unsafe they are ) Production had stopped and were becoming outdated. The Marine Corps currently plans to have all squadrons transitioned to or start to transition to the F-35 platform by 2026.
I saw them both perform during the fly off period while I was stationed at George AFB near Edwards, it was awesome to see them do touch and gobtests at
The F23 failed because of a BS close quarters agility. A ridiculous assumption as the 22 and 23 would have killed their prey long before the enemy knew they were there. Lockheed has a HUGE kickback program AND all contracts allow for massive price hikes on software upgrades and parts. The 23 was a masterpiece of advanced thinking.
Yeah... But the F22 can super cruise at mach 1.8, vs. the YF-23's... 1.8 But, re: the EE Lightning- it was the first fighter to be able to super cruise! (At mach 1.02, but, still...) It was the only production (western) fighter which (some of them) could catch up to a Concorde from behind! Even F-15s never did THAT! (Though I suppose a YF-12 could. But, if wishes were horses,- beggers would ride, eh?)
@@davewolfy2906 . Yeah! Good info- interesting and very cool... Thanks. (The EE Lightning (thanks be that it didn't get called the 'eel', eh?) was one of the all time greats, and a massively underrated and overlooked (first gen?) jets, imho... Cheers.
Northrop was in bad books with the airforce after B2 program. The pentagon did not trust them to deliver the F23 within a reasonable budget. So it was never going to win. LM had delivered the U2 & SR 71 & F117 quickly and within budget.
Look at all the problems LM had with the F-35, way over budget and long past meeting mile posts along the way. Both are in bad name with the government now, especially Boeing with their screw up with NASA.
@ricky1231 - Except that didn't happen with the $$porky$$ F-22. It was not only delayed for years by production/teething problems, but also beset with massive cost overruns. And if those weren't enough, the cost per operational flight hour was so high that production of the large number ordered was stopped very early. The much smaller number of aircraft built, combined with losses due to attrition, has been a problem for the USAF to meet combat requirements in the current 'forever wars' warmonger philosophy. And calls over the years to produce more F-22s have been quickly rejected by the Pentagon. I wonder how this sorry scenario might have played out had the superior YF-23 been selected instead of the F-22.
At the moment the United States 🇺🇸 has the most technologically advanced military, especially the USAF, but in my opinion the aircraft need to be invincible, if the USA, NATO or any other allied nation starts a global conventional war these fantastic aircraft need to have an extremely low attrition rate, replacing them is not going to be as easy as it once was, the time required to produce just one of these aircraft is not measured in days,weeks or possibly months, and when you consider the cost element as well as the production rate it could easily diminish the superiority of the United States military,😮 and all the other countries that have procured their aircraft might not be able to obtain spare parts or even whole aircraft, it is one drawback that everyone hopes will not happen, but given the wars in Ukraine and potentially the Middle East as a whole does make this scenario very much more probable that possible.
...The Japanese liked it so much they bought it. I'm looking to see their latest offering in the stealth fighter category as I suspect it will be their version of the YF-23......
Is there any online warfare air game that has the F22 and F23? Given the game creators modeled the simulations on real F22 and F23 performance specifications, does any one who plays air warfare games know which one is better, in the game?
The actual specs are classified but DCS has mod versions of both aircraft. Growling Sidewinder a TH-cam channel has videos where he uses them both but I don't remember if they fought against each other.
Narrator voices about YF-23 its muscular structure as the moment one thinks the YF-23 airframe resembles surfaces reflecting the thickness of paper. Oh, the irony!
It is interesting how it can loose the competition and still people think it is clearly better than the F22. The F22 has done exceptionally well on all parameters except for price of construction and price of maintenance, and even though it was a close competition, I see no reason to expect that the yF23 had done significantly better. Also the F22 has trust vectoring, the yF23 does not, so on close combat manuverability, its not even a close competition.
Given the current geo-political tensions in the Middle East and Asia, the USA should be prioritizing the YF23 and the Virginia Class submarines. Any delay could be defeat.
A few AF generals when on to board jobs at Lockheed after loudly voicing their preference for the YF-22. Not that this tipped the decision towards Lockheed of course. The YF-23 beat the YF-22 in almost every category, but hey... the AF got what the generals wanted.
Which is 1. more affordable, 2 which is easier to maintain in service? More affordable means we could buy more of them,and easier to maintain means we get more service from them. Sadly,F-22A is capped at about 180 planes,and NO more can be built,all the tooling was intentionally destroyed due to politics. We need 1000s of these planes.
The YF-23 lost fair and square. The only reason people still love it is because of its good looks. Given Northrop's challenges with the maintainability of stealth features on the B-2, it would have been a very difficult plane to maintain. Given the Air Force's recent position on not going forward with current NGAD proposals and relying on multiple, more affordable Collaborative Combat Aircraft, it's not likely stealth nor speed of a fighter is at the top of their priority list.
Both should have been built, but those defense Corps charge way too much for these Jetfighters. The USA Gov. should nationalize them and make their own, way cheaper. Indeed is a testament of USA Ingenuity, the very thing I like the most of the USA, it's innovative nature
I’m so sick of the YF-23 fanboys saying that the YF-23 was superior to the F-22. This is nonsense. People saying all of these things are ignoring some FACTS! Fact#1 The YF23 and YF22 were prototypes that were used for demonstration and validation. The ATF competition did not have a competitive fly off. The purpose was to demonstrate that the technologies would actually work in a real aircraft. The dem/val was only one part of the competition. That said, the F-22 team flew their aircraft beyond the requirements set by the air force. Fact#2 The YF22 and YF23 prototypes were just that-prototypes. They were not production aircraft. Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to compare these aircraft to the actual, fully developed, production F-22. The F-22 design changed dramatically from the YF-22 prototype. And the YF-23 would have as well. People keep saying that the YF-23 was faster. It was faster, in supercruise, than the YF-22. BUT THE F-22 is faster, in supercruise, than both. And again, the F-22 is a fully developed production aircraft. People keep saying that that the YF-23 was stealthier. This is a ludicrous statement. Neither the YF-23 nor the YF-22 were fully developed stealth aircraft. All they had were stealthy shapes and composite skin. Neither prototype had a gold coated cockpit, RAM coatings and gap filler or internal radar absorbing structures. Neither of them underwent exhaustive signature verification. Moreover, every change that was made during development of the F-22, after the ATF competition, (there were a lot) had to be taken into account, while making it as stealthy as possible and maintaining the other specs. This would have been true of the F-23 as well. Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to say how a hypothetical production F-23 would have compared to the production F-22.
As an old time FTE at Edwards...........I would be interested in comparative Maintenance Man Hours PER Flight Hours (MMH/FH) comparisons between these two. It would seem that the Raptor would win that side, big time.
I agree. Darth Vader would have found the lack of faith in the F23 disturbing. If the F23 had been adopted, a squadron might have drawn Darth Vader's helmet as part of their logo.
@@Greyman-x6d Another airplane that I think Darth Vader would like is the British Victor bomber. It is so ugly and strange (from every angle, a monstrosity of function over form) that only a dark-side inhabitant would appreciate.
So our government people of responsibility went with not the lowest bidder and not the best aircraft but with the best kickbacks? Is that what all this means??
This is not a beauty contest. These planes have to do missions. This plane does not have much (internal) carrying capacity. I bet the next gen is going to look even boxier than the F-22 and F-35. Some of that carrying capacity has to be made to carry more fuel.
The YF-23 was the most beautiful modern fighter design I have ever seen, but who am I to say, just a very old pilot and history buff.
It's amazing how much love and respect the YF-23 still gets, more than 30 years after it lost the competition to the Raptor.
It actually won the competition but lost the lobbying of congress/bureaucrats that awarded the contract. Lockheed gave more money to the corrupt politicians. YF23 had better stats all the way around.
Well - we can buy them from Japan 😉
Not really look at all the Fanboys the A-10 has to this day, despite being obsolete for over 20 years
I followed and was rooting for the YF-23! I was disappointed. However when something is that good, it doesn't die it just goes back to the table and gets better!
@@rainman6080Except it didn’t. It was slightly better in some areas and slightly worse in others. The two planes were pretty evenly matched according to the only pilot to fly both.
At the end of the day, the AF decided that maintenance and support costs matter. Plus the pilots really wanted a Super Eagle, and they got one. It is an absolute myth that the 23 was a superior fighter.
If i see this flying overhead today, i would say it's some futuristic fighter concept. The fact it first flew in the early 90s, along with the F-22, is mind-blowing.
YF-23-My favorite plane of all time!
Northrop: "We made the YF-23 It's better with stealth and speed over our competition...the YF-22. Oh, and it is finished for testing one month before the YF-22."
Air Force: "Yeah but the 22 can dogfight better."
Northrop: "You want a stealth fighter to....dogfight?!? Don't you guys have air to air missiles that have beyond visual range kill capabilities?"
Air Force: "Shut up. We're going with the 22."
Pretty much... Yeah.
Sadly, yup. That YF-23 was gorgeous. 😢
Remember, that crap with missiles was tried circa 1958-1972 and that was McNamara and his band of Merry Idiots. F-4 Crews were being killed far more from MiG-17 and MigG-21's than EVER expected. There wasn't a gun (internal) to the F-4 until the 'E' model. That, and the fact that it had an extremely low turning radius/capability made the Phantom II less than desirable in the dog-fighting regime. Considering the 17 and 21's tactics, it rarely fought BVR, instead they flew low (the F-4 radar was NOT lookdown/shootdown) and the MiG's flew low to avoid the Phantoms and their radar, then spring up 'CLOSE-IN' and outflew the F-4. That was the "NVAF's" tactics. Did the "NVAF" always win against the F-4? No. However, they DID win far more often than they should have. In fact, in the main part of the Vietnamese air war, the tactics were wrote (interesting that almost thirty years later -- they were 'wrote' causing the loss of an F-117A Nighthawk (in Yugoslavia) -- again, idiot Democrats that wanted to use the same course, paths, routes, and timing and promoted piss-poor tactics. Like him or not, when Nixon came into office, he got rid of the Democrat meddling and let the Air-Force Top Brass make the necessary corrections in capability, capacity, planning and tactics. (amongst other things). You seem to either forget this or you are not versed in this!
The Yf 23 was. Leap to far, and the AF had questions about NG’s project management capabilities. I think they had a scandal a few years before this competition where they basically screwed the AF and purposely went over budget and got caught. The AF never forgot about that.
@@warrenholmes3311 I know of that history but technology has progressed far beyond not having look down/shoot down radar (the F-14 was the first to employ that kind of radar).
Will America's future enemies develop tactics that will make "stealth" tech obsolete? Maybe, but will we develop tech that will defeat their tactics? Or will we counter develop tactics? Who knows. No one can accurately predict the future. The YF-23 was the better jet fighter in terms of speed, fuel consumption and low observable characteristics. What are the things the Air Force is wanting in their 6th Gen fighters? Speed, range, as low as possible observable characteristics and firepower.
Side note about the downing of the F-117 - it was being tracked by one type of radar but not the other type (the type that guides the s.a.m.'s to their target). The guys manning the missile site turned their radar off so as to not attract anti radar missiles. At the moment the pilot opened his ordinance door is when the guys at the s.a.m. site decided to turn their radar back on (the one that guides the missiles) and they discovered they could lock onto the F-117. So they did and that's how it was brought down for Chinese spys to purchase parts of the wreckage.
I always thought the 23 looked much cooler than the 22. 👍
You are not alone!
@@MikeInExile Clearly, you are a man of high intelligence and excellent taste. 😁
@@DoubleMrE Back in 1990 Velocity Development released a combat flight simulator called "Jetfighter II" The F-23D was one of the four aircraft included with the sim, and an image of it was prominently displayed on the cover of the box the software came in. I spent so many hours playing that game into the wee hours of the morning that my wife started threatening me with divorce! 😉
Absolutely agree. When they finally agreed on the yf-22 I was disappointed. But I remember one of the reasons against the 23 was that the turning radius was not as superior as the 22. And the split exhaust could pose problems with IR.
So now Japan is building a jet based on the YF-23. Time will tell.
I wonder how much of the NGAD will end up coming from the concepts used in the YF-23? My guess is... a LOT.
@@bholdr----0 MUCHLY
@@MAGAman-uy7wh
Yeah .. the 23 STILL looks like it's in the bleeding edge, 40-ish years later...
Sometimes I feet bad for wishing that the cold war never ended, because of all the cool tech that came out of it- from the Blackbird and the ATF to Tang and Velcro! Cheers!
@@bholdr----0I wouldn't expect much from the YF-23 to make it to NGAD.
The ATF competition had very different goals than NGAD.
@@bholdr----0 Well, Mitsubishi altered the F-16 into a similar but different fighter. One difference is the Mitsubishi version is slightly larger than the General Dynamics version with a wing area 25% larger. So, I'm pretty sure that whoever is building Japan's version is making alterations but those alterations will be improvements.
I think a lot of rhe ideas and tech from the YF-23 is going to go into NGAD... Especially the stealth aspects, which was supposedly far superior to the F-22- but without the now unnecessary supermanuverabity- but, at the time, Northrup and McDonnelDouglas had a bad habit of cost overruns (see The B-2, etc.)
It was particularly stealthy in the infrared spectrum with it's buried engines and intakes and engine nozzles, but it was far from being a dogfighter, when dogfighting was still considered a necessary thing.
Anyway, a YF-23 without any tails at all (which can be done now) would be very, very stealthy, on alll spectrums amd aspects, even today - and given it's capabilities 40-ish years ago... One has to wonder what it could do with that many years more experience!
I suspect that NGAD will be far more simaler to the YF-F3 than the F-22! (Or at lea, I hope so!)
NGAD is now in question. May not happen, but if it does you’re probably right.
Over 250 knots airspeed the YF 23 was more maneuverable, faster, more fuel efficient and a smaller radar cross section. It was also easier to maintain.
I remember guys/subcontractors working on the design. It was 3D software. A quiet bunch of technicians off in a corner at the lab. They worked in shifts.
The fact that even all these years later it still looks like the most advanced fighter ever designed. It’s one of if not the sexiest fighter ever built. It’s strange the F-22 was chosen when the YF-23 had much better stealth capabilities, much higher top speed and much better range. What they should have done was build one production version of each and then put them up against each other for a few months actually fighting them against each other and see which one comes out on top. On top of that since they deemed thrust vectoring unneeded/useless now their original claimed reasoning for selecting the YF-22 is now void and null. Betting the YF-23 would still be being prosody ed today as the focus is on BVR instead of dog fighting now.
YF-23 was the best. Politics killed it.
Northrop were already building B-2's and had supposedly made a poor job of it.
It didn't have enough internal storage for weapons so it was pointless as a superiority fighter as it couldn't stay in the fight for long enough to be worth it. And placing extra storage on the wings defeated the purpose of the design.
it should be built now
*2 outstanding aircraft that never went into production*
*Vought XF8U-3 Crusader III*
*Northrop F-20 Tigershark*
When the F16 &F17 went head to head. The 17 lost but was reborn as the FA18
The same thing should have happened with this aircraft. Imagine having 180 raptors and 180 F23’s.
Now that would have been some interesting situations 😂
I remember when these planes were tested together with the F23 and F22, my thoughts were take them both. they both have their value in a war theater.
Too much alike in mission, too different in parts and tools to justify the cost of having both. Still think it was more politics than anything else. Both are brilliant.
Let's not forget that the YF-32 had longer legs and could carry twice the payload "INSIDE" including drop tanks for recon versions. This was almost the DUMBEST decision the Air Force made.
From what I have learnt it was not the USAF that made the decision, it was the Administration that decided on the RAPTOR, it was a political decision based upon the political desire to keep the aviation industry from losing Lockheed as a major supplier to the military and not to be swallowed up by another company, like Boeing for example, but that is just what I have heard, not from any source of inside information just TH-cam channels speculation.
I wish they had chosen both aircraft. The YF-22 as a dogfighter and the YF-23 for an interceptor.
The YF23 is a thing of awe and possibly even better than the Raptor.
Looking at hose lines you can see where they might have added some internal fuel in a B or C model to add some range like they are needing on the f-22 now.... I was liking the F-23 a lot as I watched the run off. That missile launch was the punch that ruined the low level buzz caused by the "blackwidow" paint and "Grey Ghost" monikers. Marketing... I hope they picked this format for the NGAD, nimbleness with some self defense would be desirable in what would be a forward air controller/ C3I aircraft. It looks like it would have the extra space for a couple more aircrew like the EA-6 and some more gas as well.
I would love to see what ruddervator would have done for the B-1 Lancer bomber.
Sounds like the Advanced B-1R proposed Missile Truck from 20 years ago.
@@Ryan_Christopher aside from the engine swap the B-1R would have looked the same. I'm suggesting replacing the tail for ruddervators. Also melding the new engines into the main body of the B-1. Curious how would having a air intake on the dorsal side effect flight? The Scaled Composite 437 Vanguard has dorsal intakes.
Prime example of sticking your foot in your mouth pretty much the same as the Avril arrow we just can’t have good things
that's "AVRO" dane
Yet limited peeps know about it (Arrow). Planned?. Great bird.
The USAF doesn't make aircraft. Never has.
Was going to say the same thing.
No, but they put in the orders.
YF23 was probably more expensive to maintain. It did not have the flexibility of the F22 to be adapted to naval or strike versions.
Don't even pay for, we do, our undisclosed price(s). Like $500 hammers/toilet seats?...they do😮😊
It was the U.S. Congress that cut production. A shortsighted move
30 years ahead of its time...
As an American taxpayer and USAF veteran it still pisses me off that Lockheed Martin got the contract. They have continually been over budget and behind schedule. Even today in 2024 they still have problems with the F-35 and hundreds of them are finished and in storage because they can’t be drought up to standards. Plus the early F-35’s will have to have expensive modifications to them. The F-23 would have been a better fighter for the money. We get screwed again by the Pentagon.
The YF‐23 should of gotten the contract, hands down and I'm not knocking the F-22,excellent aircraft.
The f22 just looks goofy next to the 23
the REAL winner of the atf program!
Is this the same model with update Aviatonic’s Japan is getting ready to produce for their own needs?
Wow, should have made both. Really Interesting information though.
Overall both aircraft were very similar in their capabilities. Each was better in certain aspects, but evenly balanced overall. The clincher for the contract was the previous history of the contractors ability to build and support their aircraft in a timely and inexpensive manner. That is what determined who won the contract, not the capabilities of each fighter.
Some technical details weighed in as well. The YF-23’s missile bay had the missiles stacked vertically meaning if one failed to launch, all the subsequent weapons were effectively neutralized. Also there was a 1.4 billion cost difference between the two. Essentially the F-23 team included the total cost to include all the growth and add on items expected where the 22 team did not include them allowing the costs to follow on eventually as most programs do.
It was more about which manufacturer was putting the most money into the right hands...
@@williestyle35 And that conspiracy theory is based on what exactly?
@@hifinsword Lockheed's history of bribery, dating back to the Starfighter "sale" to Germany.
@@williestyle35 So you have NOTHING, ZIP, NADA, NO EVIDENCE concerning SUPPOSED bribery by Lockheed to gov't officials on the YF-23, just your theory that bribery must be involved in the contract.
The Soviets made great planes, but this plane is on another level As well as the F2 2 , it just goes to show. You can make two great planes and picking either one is like splitting hairs, but this plane is an absolute legend…
Thrust vectoring is a waste of money compared to stealth. If they can't see you, you'll never need to use it. 23 > 22.
Its good for air shows.
Didja listen to the man? It WAS stealth!!
"if they can't see you" will not always be the case in real life.
@@JayWye52that's where the YF23's other feature comes in. "If u wanna hit me, first u gotta catch me"
Past will never change, and cannot be changed. The only thing we can do is to learn from our mistakes in the past and look ahead!
The fact that the F-22 also snuck in a missile launch didn't help the F-23 Dane
Wasn’t required for contract award.
I’m convinced the 23 designs didn’t just go away into the shredder, what they learned is most likely part of the aircraft our children will see in the sky. Unless humanity doesn’t destroy itself first.
Fly by wire has been around since the early 70's when the F-16 saw production.
Knowone really won because the production run of the F-22 was cut short in favour of the JSF program anyway. ( the same probably would of happened to the YF-23 )
The Marines needing a modern high performance jump jet for there fleet of carriers to replace the old british made Harriers was 1 of the biggest reasons the F22 program was cut short to fund the JSF program while giving the Navy and Airforce new fighters at the same time.
Marine Corps uses the Harrier II, which was a US/British joint development from the original HS Harrier. It wasn't strictly a British plane, but definitely had a lot of British in it.
@GreaverBlade Correct, but the UK stopped production of Harriers and sold their Harriers and spare parts to the US Marines ( Harriers, also known as the widow maker due to how unsafe they are ) Production had stopped and were becoming outdated.
The Marine Corps currently plans to have all squadrons transitioned to or start to transition to the F-35 platform by 2026.
@@GreaverBlade This transition began in 2016 when VMA-211 exchanged its Harriers for the F-35B and became VMFA-211.
I saw them both perform during the fly off period while I was stationed at George AFB near Edwards, it was awesome to see them do touch and gobtests at
F22 also had flaws at the beginning. Such a shame, Air Force didn't keep this airplane.
When you park the YF-23 next to the F-22, it makes the F-22 look like a conventional jet.
The F23 failed because of a BS close quarters agility. A ridiculous assumption as the 22 and 23 would have killed their prey long before the enemy knew they were there.
Lockheed has a HUGE kickback program AND all contracts allow for massive price hikes on software upgrades and parts.
The 23 was a masterpiece of advanced thinking.
That is one sweet jet.
Supercruise mach2. Concorde, BAC TSR2, blown flaps, reduced radar profile, 1960's technology UK. You're welcome.
EE Lightning.
Yeah... But the F22 can super cruise at mach 1.8, vs. the YF-23's... 1.8
But, re: the EE Lightning- it was the first fighter to be able to super cruise! (At mach 1.02, but, still...) It was the only production (western) fighter which (some of them) could catch up to a Concorde from behind! Even F-15s never did THAT! (Though I suppose a YF-12 could. But, if wishes were horses,- beggers would ride, eh?)
@@bholdr----0 EE Lightning,
Two 17,000lb thrust engines, quite an achievement for a 40,000,lb aircraft that carried its armament externally.
@@davewolfy2906 .
Yeah! Good info- interesting and very cool... Thanks. (The EE Lightning (thanks be that it didn't get called the 'eel', eh?) was one of the all time greats, and a massively underrated and overlooked (first gen?) jets, imho...
Cheers.
@@KLRJUNE during WW1 only three countries produced credible combat aircraft.
Some did not produce any.
AF Plant 42 aka LMCO ADP aka Skunk Works at Palmdale CA
the perfect strike fighter.
My brother was one of the designers of this plane. They should have made this along with the22
The F-22 was overall a better bet. A little less risky in design. Afterall, these where supposed to be launched from aircraft carriers too.
Imagine if some other countries could decide to take the YF23 offer from Northrop, "if US doesn't want it, we do".
At least we didn't get the F 32. We still have by far the best aircraft in the world.
Plane is clean 🔥✌️
McDonnell Douglas built the "TomCat" don't forget, good pedigree there.
I believe it was Grumman Aerospace that built the “TomCat”, that is if you are referring to the Navy F-14 shown in Top Gun?
@@SparksofOhio You are correct, Grumman it was, two Good companies swallowed up
i see yf-23 video i click n like
Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark.
Was with MD/Boeing in the 90's. I always thought the AF chose wrongly. Production 23's would have shared the 22's biggest weakness. Non modularity.
It's a gem !
Imagine if Israel build this very plane its going to be a beast
Tooling for the F-22 has long since been gone. What about the YF-23's? Use the already developed airframe, update it and equip it with new "stuff."
Northrop was in bad books with the airforce after B2 program. The pentagon did not trust them to deliver the F23 within a reasonable budget. So it was never going to win. LM had delivered the U2 & SR 71 & F117 quickly and within budget.
Look at all the problems LM had with the F-35, way over budget and long past meeting mile posts along the way. Both are in bad name with the government now, especially Boeing with their screw up with NASA.
If LM didn’t get this contract they would if been done. AF saved LM to save they contractor.
@ricky1231 - Except that didn't happen with the $$porky$$ F-22. It was not only delayed for years by production/teething problems, but also beset with massive cost overruns. And if those weren't enough, the cost per operational flight hour was so high that production of the large number ordered was stopped very early. The much smaller number of aircraft built, combined with losses due to attrition, has been a problem for the USAF to meet combat requirements in the current 'forever wars' warmonger philosophy. And calls over the years to produce more F-22s have been quickly rejected by the Pentagon. I wonder how this sorry scenario might have played out had the superior YF-23 been selected instead of the F-22.
At the moment the United States 🇺🇸 has the most technologically advanced military, especially the USAF, but in my opinion the aircraft need to be invincible, if the USA, NATO or any other allied nation starts a global conventional war these fantastic aircraft need to have an extremely low attrition rate, replacing them is not going to be as easy as it once was, the time required to produce just one of these aircraft is not measured in days,weeks or possibly months, and when you consider the cost element as well as the production rate it could easily diminish the superiority of the United States military,😮 and all the other countries that have procured their aircraft might not be able to obtain spare parts or even whole aircraft, it is one drawback that everyone hopes will not happen, but given the wars in Ukraine and potentially the Middle East as a whole does make this scenario very much more probable that possible.
The 22 was a fighter? The other a mid-bomber, huge. Many other reasons why not but...did not go unnoticed in future A/C. Paid fwd.
I love the YF-23 but also the first prototype was less refined than the YF-22 and the second was a disaster.
Opportunity is missed by most because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
...The Japanese liked it so much they bought it. I'm looking to see their latest offering in the stealth fighter category as I suspect it will be their version of the YF-23......
Is there any online warfare air game that has the F22 and F23? Given the game creators modeled the simulations on real F22 and F23 performance specifications, does any one who plays air warfare games know which one is better, in the game?
The actual specs are classified but DCS has mod versions of both aircraft. Growling Sidewinder a TH-cam channel has videos where he uses them both but I don't remember if they fought against each other.
Надо было принять на вооружение два прототипа YF-23.
Narrator voices about YF-23 its muscular structure as the moment one thinks the YF-23 airframe resembles surfaces reflecting the thickness of paper. Oh, the irony!
you ever seen the animated movies called Macross Plus ? story is two pilots , two planes ... one winner .
I'm sure there's something as good or better being built in a secret hanger somewhere
In turns there would be a contrail from the right wing tip!
Should have adopted both.
You are correct but the Air Force look like a new gen jet is even better (rumors).
The Airforce should have gone with both options.
It is interesting how it can loose the competition and still people think it is clearly better than the F22.
The F22 has done exceptionally well on all parameters except for price of construction and price of maintenance, and even though it was a close competition, I see no reason to expect that the yF23 had done significantly better.
Also the F22 has trust vectoring, the yF23 does not, so on close combat manuverability, its not even a close competition.
Given the current geo-political tensions in the Middle East and Asia, the USA should be prioritizing the YF23 and the Virginia Class submarines. Any delay could be defeat.
What politicians made the most money for denying such awesome aircraft.
A few AF generals when on to board jobs at Lockheed after loudly voicing their preference for the YF-22. Not that this tipped the decision towards Lockheed of course. The YF-23 beat the YF-22 in almost every category, but hey... the AF got what the generals wanted.
Where does this Design house the comparable Missile Systems of the F-22🤔
In fact, it looks a lot like the last Sukhoi!
Obama shut down f22 completely. This included tooling and support system.
and Mrs. Cheney was on Boeing’s board of directors .
Thanks Obama.
YF-23 is a Gen 5.5 bird.
It was all about money! The F23 is way better than F22.
The YF-23 was superior in it's era. The decision was political, and they're still paying for the mistake they've made, to this day!
It was Superior!
Northrop 30 years ahead but someone said NO.Who was it.
Why didn't they build both the 22 and 23.
Which is 1. more affordable, 2 which is easier to maintain in service?
More affordable means we could buy more of them,and easier to maintain means we get more service from them.
Sadly,F-22A is capped at about 180 planes,and NO more can be built,all the tooling was intentionally destroyed due to politics. We need 1000s of these planes.
We all know the F-22 was not the best fighter of the two, it was the most cost effective one.
Which is ironic as it had horrific cost overruns.
if it was YF-23, it could have been mass produced unlike YF-22 that was stoked by how many F-35's nowadays... IMHO
Absolutely beautiful plane! Дякуємо Збройним Силам України за захист від орків!
orc's 😂
The YF-23 lost fair and square. The only reason people still love it is because of its good looks. Given Northrop's challenges with the maintainability of stealth features on the B-2, it would have been a very difficult plane to maintain. Given the Air Force's recent position on not going forward with current NGAD proposals and relying on multiple, more affordable Collaborative Combat Aircraft, it's not likely stealth nor speed of a fighter is at the top of their priority list.
WE WERE IDOTS NOT TO KEEP the YF-22. HELL buy the prototypes and mothball the so NO ONE else would get it.
I believe one is at the Air Farce museum and the other is either at the Smithsonian or in storage at the Dryden test center...
@@danielvogel5252 I REAlly hope so. I saw something on Utube that Japan was making a version on one.
Both should have been built, but those defense Corps charge way too much for these Jetfighters. The USA Gov. should nationalize them and make their own, way cheaper. Indeed is a testament of USA Ingenuity, the very thing I like the most of the USA, it's innovative nature
Too bad that’s not how the military-industrial-financial complex is working. How else to pre-finance other projects.
I’m so sick of the YF-23 fanboys saying that the YF-23 was superior to the F-22.
This is nonsense. People saying all of these things are ignoring some FACTS!
Fact#1
The YF23 and YF22 were prototypes that were used for demonstration and validation. The ATF competition did not have a competitive fly off. The purpose was to demonstrate that the technologies would actually work in a real aircraft. The dem/val was only one part of the competition. That said, the F-22 team flew their aircraft beyond the requirements set by the air force.
Fact#2
The YF22 and YF23 prototypes were just that-prototypes. They were not production aircraft. Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to compare these aircraft to the actual, fully developed, production F-22.
The F-22 design changed dramatically from the YF-22 prototype. And the YF-23 would have as well.
People keep saying that the YF-23 was faster. It was faster, in supercruise, than the YF-22. BUT THE F-22 is faster, in supercruise, than both. And again, the F-22 is a fully developed production aircraft.
People keep saying that that the YF-23 was stealthier. This is a ludicrous statement.
Neither the YF-23 nor the YF-22 were fully developed stealth aircraft. All they had were stealthy shapes and composite skin.
Neither prototype had a gold coated cockpit, RAM coatings and gap filler or internal radar absorbing structures. Neither of them underwent exhaustive signature verification.
Moreover, every change that was made during development of the F-22, after the ATF competition, (there were a lot) had to be taken into account, while making it as stealthy as possible and maintaining the other specs. This would have been true of the F-23 as well.
Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to say how a hypothetical production F-23 would have compared to the production F-22.
Russia used the YF-23 to elaborate SU 57. .
Northrop is now out of the fighter business
As an old time FTE at Edwards...........I would be interested in comparative Maintenance Man Hours PER Flight Hours (MMH/FH) comparisons between these two. It would seem that the Raptor would win that side, big time.
The F-22 looks awesome, but I always thought the F-23 looked cooler and more "Darth Vader like" (more scary looking).
I agree. Darth Vader would have found the lack of faith in the F23 disturbing. If the F23 had been adopted, a squadron might have drawn Darth Vader's helmet as part of their logo.
@@usamwhambam 🛸🕷🕸 Long live the Empire❕
@@Greyman-x6d Another airplane that I think Darth Vader would like is the British Victor bomber. It is so ugly and strange (from every angle, a monstrosity of function over form) that only a dark-side inhabitant would appreciate.
@@usamwhambam Is that the Bomber from 007 Thunderball?
@@Greyman-x6d I think that movie features the Vulcan, no t the Victor.
The biggest problem with this plane was they spent all the money on building a better plane instead of buying the votes 🗳️
So our government people of responsibility went with not the lowest bidder and not the best aircraft but with the best kickbacks? Is that what all this means??
This is not a beauty contest. These planes have to do missions. This plane does not have much (internal) carrying capacity. I bet the next gen is going to look even boxier than the F-22 and F-35. Some of that carrying capacity has to be made to carry more fuel.
They liked the way the 22 looked over the 23. The only reason I can think of to choose the 22. Absurd. And I love the 22!