@@MasterQuestMaster tbf that's a reasonable restriction. Consider the following: 1) in 99.99999% of cases the chainlink doesn't go anywhere near 16, I can't tell the last time I saw it in a normal game. 2) 16 is a power of 2 so it makes sense it would cap out at 16, the game designers obviously didn't expect people to try and reach that high of a chainlink. They could probably upgrade it to a 32 chainlink (next power of 2) but idk if that's worth the effort.
@@somerandomweeb4836 the highest chain link I've seen in master duel was 11 between an eldlich player activating all their traps and a drytron player chaining Beatrice and heralds' to them
tbf, the "illegal master duel" one could reach a lot more chain links, im guessing 256. they also have permaloop break and auto destroy split-second contradicting continuous effects. master duel logic isn't that foolproof yet but its very playable, just that testers let these extreme possibility slips. may the intern-kun rest peacefully in preparation for the upcoming possibly fix patches.
they have character specific counters lul, i feel like that would be obnoxious af to go through like 7k+ cards to find what uses counters and then draw a counter for almost each and every one. although they can just search for counter specific cards through a filter (current updated ygopro shows approx. 309 for ocg + tcg), much like how many of these card loops are already known. this also brings up the point that this is just one loop, or 2 card interaction out of all loops so far, and is among many of some of the most knowledgeable loop enabling cards. once people find a loop that is not popularly known, or new cards get released that contain potential loops, the idea that they actually went through everything through the game could be false.
In this Series both twitch chat and myself will digging for infinite loops testing the limits of Master Duel rullings programation. We will use mandatory effects and gimmick scenarios, and see how to the game deals with them. HOWEVER in each episode well try another loop of the next interaction that was released, not moving in Chronological order. This is the Master Duel destruction series.
This doesn't feel like a memory leak. It feels like there's something that counts how long it's been since an open game state and goes "okay you've activated 200 (or whatever) cards since the last open game state, that's not a thing that's supposed to happen, you lose now" that's there as a fail safe to prevent stuff they couldn't think of from looping forever.
That had to be intentional. It causing a connection error after x amount of loops. That way people get punished for causing them. Or maybe it is a memory problem. There was someone who tried to fusion summon using 100+ monsters and as soon as it hit the field the guy was forced into the same connection error. Either way it’s pretty impressive Konami programmed the game the way they did. That being said, the only true infinite loop I got myself in wasn’t even my fault. I was doing a solo duel in the World Chalice story and the AI was put into an infinite loop because it could not decide whether or not to tribute its own monster. It would flash one of the cards like it’s about to use it as tribute or link material and then it cancels that action. And the AI was so confused that it would repeat that infinitely. And since there’s no timer on Solo duels I had no choice but to hit Surrender and try again.
That one isnt an infinite loop persay it was a programming bug. It happens all the time in Duel links and I've only seen it once in Master duel. The A.I would get locked in an infinite loop of ( can I perform "x" action? ) Yes, (perform "x" action?) No. That's how I understood it at least I dont know how to code so that's just an estimate guess.
Konami: So, DistantCoder, we think our game is pretty solid. DC: We'll see about that... *a few moments later* DC: They thought of fricking everything here, but I bet they haven't thought of this. Konami: *surprise motherfucker*
Connection failed definitely seems like a last resort type of thing. If it was a memory leak the game would slow down, but also I don't think it gets even close to matching the memory you'd use in an average higher level game. There's simply not enough happening to use up that much memory, specially in a streamer's computer. I'm too lazy to check but I wonder what the total activations (Morphing, All out and Deep seated combined) were in both instances of the test. So far we've seen it immediately kill an automatic no chain loop with skill drain, and cap activations and chain links at 10 and 16 respectively, so this test seems like a definite outlier just outright killing the match.
I posted this in a separate comment but. The game likely has a timer that runs on the background when the player timer is not running and that gets reset every time your player timer goes down, so what's probably happening here is that the game uses that timer as a failsafe with something like "If (failSafeTimer > 5 minutes) {make the current player discconect}". This is probably why the first time you died after 11 activations and the second one after more activations, the pot likely took less reveals to trigger on the first couple of activations or you had less cards in deck to begin with, so that resulted in more activations happening in the same timeframe.
*An Explanation on What's Happening Here:* If this was a Memory Leak (Meaning Data not being released from RAM when it should be, not running out of RAM) then it would crash the entire Master Duel Program instead of Disconnecting the Player from the Duel. What seems more likely is that there is a limit to the amount of actions that the server can recieve from a Player's Client, by having an infinite quantity of actions to fulfill it would respond with a Disconnect to prevent errors. Maliscious Players are already abusing this interaction by sending Packet Data to the Servers that gets them instantly Disconnected from a Duel and it will not appear in Match History because the Duel never finalised so there was never a Winner. Of course, I don't have access to the Source Code and I'm not a Master Duel Dev so this is all complete theory - but the required Online Connection heavily suggests that the Servers are responsible for processing the interactions in a Duel and considering sending Packet Data was used to force Opponents to Surrender it reinforces that Master Duel's Servers are the ones doing any Disconnecting.
Hey there, I was (possibly) the first dood in chat to suggest it was a memory leak. I only used that term because the Shadowverse community often refers to it whenever they explain that game's various infinite loops. The difference with those loops however is that the looper's opponent disconnects instead and that is the full extent of what I know. I have never faced a looper so I wouldn't know if they ever caused the opponent's client to Alt-F4 itself. In short, what I'm saying is that I and that community have no idea what we're talking about. :^)
I also don't think it could be a memory leak, but also the server is never getting an "infinite" amount of requests. It simply processes the loop, and starts over. Not really any space for memory leaks or many server requests (except if you are implying that there is a fixed cap on the number of requests that can happen during a single game/turn, which i don't think is the case). I think they just have some simple code to check for a loop, or if too much time has elapsed with your clock not reducing, and disconnecting you is just the simplest way they found to solve that.
@@sharpedged7830 "The server is never getting an "infinite" amount of requests. It simply processes the loop, and starts over." No difference between repeating the same loop forever or trying to process an infinite amount of requests. Those are two ways of saying the same thing...
@@itsaname3986 There is a difference, imagine a recursive procedure calling itself forever, in this case the server will need to keep track of the previous calls to the procedure and will eventually break when it runs out of memory. The loop we are talking about will only take up a bit of memory on the call stack, reset the memory and loop again forever. If you left your computer running a youtube video forever on loop it will run infinitely (assuming no hardware failure / power outage), but if a virus starts spam opening windows your computer will eventually crash.
The game likely has a timer that runs on the background when the player timer is not running and that gets reset every time your player timer goes down, so what's probably happening here is that the game uses that timer as a failsafe with something like "If (failSafeTimer > 5 minutes) {make the current player discconect}". This is probably why the first time you died after 11 activations and the second one after more activations, the pot likely took less reveals to trigger on the first couple of activations or you had less cards in deck to begin with, so that resulted in more activations happening in the same timeframe.
More than likely the game has a fail safe for infinites where if the same action leads to the same result which incurs the same action, it disconnects. Just in case they overlooked something
Yeah thats the weird thing. It does have an anti loop failsafe and we know it, but DCing you isn't it. After 10 loops, the 11th activation will resolve without effect, ending the loop.
@@Nocturne989 I posted this in a separate comment but. The game likely has a timer that runs on the background when the player timer is not running and that gets reset every time your player timer goes down, so what's probably happening here is that the game uses that timer as a failsafe with something like "If (failSafeTimer > 5 minutes) {make the current player discconect}". This is probably why the first time you died after 11 activations and the second one after more activations, the pot likely took less reveals to trigger on the first couple of activations or you had less cards in deck to begin with, so that resulted in more activations happening in the same timeframe.
@@murua44 Honestly that's very likely the scenario. There could also be some kind of arbitrary range of the timer so that players don't discover an exact value and adjust their trolling/looping to get as close to the DC timer as possible without going over, a literal Chicken Game lol
Konami: Players, here is Master Duel. An official Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Simulator by First Party Company. Have fun and enjoy! Coder: Let's break this sumbitch!
Something similar happens with overload fusion btw, if you activate it with around 100 target the game just explodes the moment it tries to calculate chimera overdragon's attack. Not really a loop but it is interesting how the game doesn't like you pulling certain things.
Considering how well coded this game is, just remember the game was rumored to be released at around 2020 or late 2019 which is the height of the pandemic. But given the amount of financial resources they pulled from Duel Links and the OCG/TCG, they must've hired good programmers and devs, not only that, some suits at Konami HQ probably did their damn best to convince their higher-ups to give the game more time and not announce the release until Oct of 2021. They also probably hired or consulted veteran OCG/TCG players too but keep the meetings confidential.
Konami probably is using DFS loop detection, which would explain how they can stop all types of loops without hard coding them, and why there is an anti memory leak failsafe that causes a connection issue, since DFS loop detection takes up a lot of memory
The game normally stops infinite loops by not allowing an action to repeat itself an 11th time. Maybe the disconnect is a backup failsafe just in case the 10 loop limit is somehow bypassed by something like what Coder discovered here.
I think the devs develop some cut-downs if the player attempts to play an infinite loop algorithm and tries to destroy the game, then it must be detected by a certain amount of repeated effects, and resolutions. Another thing here is that maybe someone from the devs overlooks the loop matches so that they could cut down the match.
So for a lot of other loops, the game is aware which card is causing it and breaks the loop by destroying that card as a game action I think this is a memory error that shows what happens for the loops that slip through the cracksz
>Someone in the dev team watching this random match out of the possible 5ish million matches Bruh, I swear you can tell a person's age just from comments like these.
I assume what happened there at the end was that the game recognised that you had only swords of deep seated and morphing jars in the deck and forced a loss upon you. The reason the amount of times morphing jar was different every time is because the amount of times morphing jar had to activate to only leave the swords and itself in the deck was random.
There is the possibility that the game is coded to empty it's memory in a way that works off of different actions that were taken, which for example would explain why it makes multiple chains to resolve 17+ mandatory effects. But as you resolve the same couple of actions over and over with this loop the game might not empty it's memory as there are still actions resolving, causing either the connection to fail to prevent a stream of overlapping data your opponents machine might not be able to handle. Or it might just do that as a smoke screen, basically just lying to you to condition you to not use those decks as the game engine might have no way to correctly handle those, admittetly extremely rare, cases of unstoppable loops.
There's a clause in the official rules that infinite loops with no net value do not resolve like the Pole Position issue. Realistically All Out Attacks would destroy itself once it reached an infinite loop
Of course it knows about the Morphing Jar 2 loop, there's enough banned cards due to a looping FTK outside of the cards that themselves loop, they're going to account for it.
Seems unlikely to be a memory leak directly causing the disconnect, that would look more like the game slowing down until it crashes, but forcing a disconnect *could* be an anti-memory leak failsafe if this is actually making the game take up more memory over time. I think more likely though it's unrelated to memory issues and instead it's some other sort of failsafe that forces a disconnect to prevent neverending duels.
So in this case it is probably memory related. But so far I am impressed how many stress testing this game had to go to be green lighted at all. It didn't really break or showed an error message or closed on itself even once yet
The interesting thing here is that All-Out Attacks should have been destroyed by game mechanics, yet it wasn't. Though technically the game state could be different with each chain, since it varies how many Sword of Deep Seated there are in the deck/GY when the next part of the loop starts.
Maybe the "connection failed" error happened because there's a check to count how many cards effects happened since the last time a player played a card and, once it hits a certain number, assumes it's an infinite loop and ends the duel.
This game is too damn smart, it’s ridiculous Also the Connection Failed message reminds me of what happened to someone who tried fusing over 100 monsters into one fusion (chimeratech over dragon I believe) so I think it is a memory thing, like it’s too much information to process
Haha, you know, I think it says something about the game that pretty much all of these loops involve old cards..lol, it really was a wild time back then.
Konami like, "You can't shuffle Morphing Jar #2 into the deck if you don't have a deck" Also I might imagine that Konami has something that says, "If you use the same card effect like 15 times in a single turn then it's most likely an infinite loop" and gives you an auto-loss. Infertnity players on Xyz Festival Watch. If you want to do more testing you should have the opponent run Dark Designator so they can search the required pieces for you.
We've seen the game lock loops at 10 activations, and the game pops effect contradiction loops by breaking a card, autoloss likely occurs because of how long the loop took physically
The first one is simple if player has 0 cards in deck don't resolve jar The last loop is deffinatally not a memory leak as there is no way you're using enough memory and even if it was thats not how it would manifest. If I were to guess the game checks how many times jar has resolved targeting itself or while x gy condition is met and shuts the lobby down but idk
what I beleive it happens, all your cards in deck have ID attached to it the game checks your stats at every chain start and end if nothing changes ( hand, field, grave, banish, extra, lifepoints ) or you keep "shuffling" your deck they force an end to it after a limit is exceeded
Whoever said it was a memory leak is 100% wrong lol. This is probably a check with in the mandatory effects resolving. If the same cards are causing an infinite loop then it might just disconnect you as like a final fail safe. Eg it looked ahead and it saw that morphing jar #2 and the equip spell creating the same exact chain more than X times so it made you quit. Try this with like 4-5 different cards to confirm.
I mean, thats simple to code. Just check if there are no cards in Deck after activation. We do the same thing for ignis, or if the only cards in your Deck are Morphing Jat #2s
Well yeah its simple to code, but the fact that they went and found (as far as we know) every single card that can infinatly loop and fix them, is insane
@@marciamakesmusic it's mostly a them not forgetting to add another rule specific for just one card in one situation, most of the game is developed in probably more complex lines of code as base than just this one 'if... then' check, but this one you would have to be aware of the loop it creates and bandage it, which I think is the surprise element
I think it doesn't have to do with amount of activations. I think it's just that if enough time passes with the game playing itself (with neither of the players having any options), the game just disconnects, regardless of if it's a loop or not. It just assumes it is, and ends the match so it doesn't keep using up the servers unnecessarily.
Agreed, I think there's a second timer when the game timer is paused ticking down. and if it reaches a certain amount without any game change, it does the connection error.
It could be, it would also explain why the number of activations varied, its not random. Simply one of the tries took more time to resolve the effects (in average) than the other one, so less activations happened before the disconnect. (For example, more swords were triggered) Also, its fairly easy to do, and you just need to make sure the timer is long enough. Like, a couple of minutes.
IIRC I believe this also happens in LOD: LE. To clarify: it stops if there are no cards currently in your deck. (edit) I made this comment before your second test. But I do remember something similar happening in LOD: LE. I didn't bother doing further testing after I saw that the combo ends for reasons(???). I was also using it in conjunction with Needle Worm. The combo would end before my opponent would get decked out.
Back in the day. When MRL first came out, I dueled against one of my friends at locals and we got stuck in a morphing jar #2 sword of deep seated loop. Mj2 resolves then the sword goes on top. We didn't know back then. 😂
Hey, Coder. If you're planning on stress testing the game, I just saw a video where a person made a Chimeratech Overdragon using over 100 materials and the duel crashed like in this loop. It'd be cool to see how many materials can go into a single fusion before the game dies.
[Theory] It isn't a memory leak, if was a mem leak something else would have broken, you could even get windows to crash if was it. The thing that makes more sense to me it is a timer (proprably server sided), before the final loop atempt you activeted the Sword more then 6 times, which makes the chain longer, wasting more time, on the final atempt you actived only 4-5 sword, because of that you got more activations of Jar because your wasted less time. If my theory is right, if you can quickly send all the filler cards to the grave, leaving only 1 Sword and 1 Jar (maybe 2 for safety), you can waste less time, making the loop longer, of course once the timer ends you will get dced, but in a online duel you opp proprably gonna scoop before the timer ends.
i use morphing jar 2 combo with flip monsters as princess of tsurugi and des koala, along with buvonic vermin and gravekeeper's scout to swarm the field
@DistantCoder toons can actually cause the game to lock itself, if you have toon black luster and 1 other toon monster in hand that is lv7 or lower, the game will let you activate toon bls effect to special and then when it tells you to tribute it will give you option to select other monster but won't actually let you select, the game then gets stuck in that moment, only way out is to surrender
Did they ever try the monarch loop? It's not infinite, cause it requires input (so the timer does still decrease), but it loops cards back into your deck and your opponent's so it never goes to deckout (so potentially veeeeery high turn counter). In duel links when i did it in an ai duel i think it was at round 56 that it pulled the plug automatically. The loop is just having the prime monarch on the field and continuously summoning erebus the underworld monarch. Erebus, when sent to grave, can once per turn retun itself to hand, so having 2 in deck is enough to always cycle. Erebus on discarding from hand or deck 2 monarch spell/traps, can shuffle 1 card your opponent has in their hand, field, graveyard back into the deck (so they never deck out). Prime monarch can then shuffle your 2 discarded spell/traps back into the deck, so you can keep repeating it turn after turn. It's not as flashy and not really infinite because of the timer, but it would push the round counter to its limit.
If you could find a way to auto send outstanding dog marron to the grave inside of this loop it should in theory keep going because it's effect will auto put it back into the deck
... Yeah. I ran a deck that worked off the combo, with a hiro's shadow scout and three copies of MJ2. The idea was mill yourself down to your three MJ2s and 1 HSS, and having two monsters on the field.
@@pacesalsaboy3728 If it were, that's what would happen tho. We've been given a basis to extrapolate from with the skill drain example, so I extrapolated to what would happen with pole position. I don't really pay enough attention to the ocg banlist to know that pole was banned (and thus not in MD) and couldn't be bothered to look it up. My point is that it doesn't matter that it isn't in MD, what matters is clarifying the ruling of what would happen if it were to be in MD, as that answers the question posed. If you want to tell someone that Pole isn't in md, tell OP, cus they're the one who asked, not me
I feel like what Konami might have done is to have simulated the game ahead of what is being displayed at a high speed, whenever an effect is activated, and if it causes a long enough loop, it will stop that effect from activating. There are just way too many scenarios that causes loops that Konami would have otherwise had to program for, and it would make no sense if they did so.
I know that the whole point was to make this as automatic as possible, but if we wanted to truly test how long this could go on, perhaps allow the opponent to activate some junk in response to the morphing jar's activation. It does seem to be that the game has said "it has been x amount of minutes since the timer has gone down, so we're kicking you". It's good to test all variables.
I think the AI confuses the Loop with a error of performance thus forcing an end to the connection the same way you shut the power of your console when the console freezes.
I thought it was just some kind of "stall for time" penalty at first, but maybe it's just running out of log space and cutting off whatever side caused the last action or the loop as a consequence. Regardless if how it was caused that was pretty hilarious.
Now if there was a win-con in the deck that related to you milling spells to burn the opponent ibwonder if the loop would be forced stop considering there would be an end goal eventually
I’m not the most skilled programmer ever, but I’m gonna have to guess the issue is actually caused by the Sword of Deep Seated not making the loop closed, or the Morphing Jar #2 not being the same one each time. It would be very easy to make a system that can detect a closed loop repeating the exact same action in a closed game state for 10 times, but very difficult with a random amount of Deep Seated being milled and two different Morphing Jars taking turns
The Morphing Jar copies definitely isn't the issue, the rules do not consider a card that went to the GY or Deck and then returned to be the same copy of the card in the first place, the Deep Seated likely are the reason, but I suspect the cause is that there is no input/output save for the loop for an amount of physical time, thus why it kills instead of just dying like Departed Wanghu or popping like Skill Drain Royal Decree Jinzo
A Unity Memory leak would just cause the game to crash... unless Konami is using both a scan of a repeated gamestate while monitoring the memory usage of the game to determine a cutoff point and prevent the game from just crashing
Me inside my head talking to the internet movie end and realized that no wonder people pay so much for just one card. “Why do you think we spend so much money just to beat everyone and nobody really would like to know.” Me: AE86 plays it’s that stupid answer that your friends wants to kill me so bad then can I bring in my own dumb wish. This game really does bring the death of a fake game that makes it looks so cool. Opponents: proceeds to kill me or leave me out of the secret club
I never thought this would come up for me, but I literally *just* faced off against someone who was using the Morphing Jar #2 + All Out Attacks but he was running a gambling deck intent on flipping up Dice Jar and Morphing Jar #2. But here's the kicker: WE (presumably) *BOTH* FORGOT THAT I ACTIVATED ONE DAY OF PEACE THE PRIOR TURN SO _NEITHER_ OF US COULD TAKE DAMAGE FROM THE DICE JARS!!! 🤣😂🤣 So we're just sitting there watching this loop go on constantly and milling literally *EVERYTHING* THAT WASN'T THOSE 6 CARDS just going "Uhhhhhh..." It was 3 monsters being summoned at a time too, so there was always at least 1 Morphing Jar #2 to keep the loop going. But then he either realized he was screwed or thought it would go on infinitely and he'd lose to a timeout and quit before the loop could be canceled. (It wasn't just a sudden cancel, the bad connection symbol was showing over his profile picture so they definitely left.)
What if you play outstanding dog maron and prohibition on it? Would it go to gy and then back to deck since it can't be summoned because of prohibition. Or not activate at all?
I was wondering is the the first example of what the game does, if the code doesn't find a solution. Ergo: Any time a loop successfully causes the game to reach a state that it can't solve. KICK / DC the triggering player. If so that is some spice....
The games coding impresses me, but not nearly as much as the creativity of some of the loops. Some I was aware of but this is wild. 🤣
The games code: "I can't go past chain link 16 actually"
Which also shows how the code is so good cuz damn these scenarios are so crazy to happen
@@MasterQuestMaster tbf that's a reasonable restriction.
Consider the following:
1) in 99.99999% of cases the chainlink doesn't go anywhere near 16, I can't tell the last time I saw it in a normal game.
2) 16 is a power of 2 so it makes sense it would cap out at 16, the game designers obviously didn't expect people to try and reach that high of a chainlink. They could probably upgrade it to a 32 chainlink (next power of 2) but idk if that's worth the effort.
@@somerandomweeb4836 the highest chain link I've seen in master duel was 11 between an eldlich player activating all their traps and a drytron player chaining Beatrice and heralds' to them
tbf, the "illegal master duel" one could reach a lot more chain links, im guessing 256. they also have permaloop break and auto destroy split-second contradicting continuous effects. master duel logic isn't that foolproof yet but its very playable, just that testers let these extreme possibility slips. may the intern-kun rest peacefully in preparation for the upcoming possibly fix patches.
Konami has had multiple video games to learn the bullshit us players can pull off, not to mention all the degenerates in the tournaments.
Lol, that's a realistically funny insight.
the old video games handled these fine.
Damn, Konami was incredibly thorough when they programmed this game. I'm genuinely impressed.
If they weren't and this would happen way to much and break the game
they have character specific counters lul, i feel like that would be obnoxious af to go through like 7k+ cards to find what uses counters and then draw a counter for almost each and every one.
although they can just search for counter specific cards through a filter (current updated ygopro shows approx. 309 for ocg + tcg), much like how many of these card loops are already known.
this also brings up the point that this is just one loop, or 2 card interaction out of all loops so far, and is among many of some of the most knowledgeable loop enabling cards.
once people find a loop that is not popularly known, or new cards get released that contain potential loops, the idea that they actually went through everything through the game could be false.
In this Series both twitch chat and myself will digging for infinite loops testing the limits of Master Duel rullings programation.
We will use mandatory effects and gimmick scenarios, and see how to the game deals with them.
HOWEVER in each episode well try another loop of the next interaction that was released, not moving in Chronological order.
This is the Master Duel destruction series.
SIN EMBARGO!
I have see this msg with combat log voice 😂😂
mastersaga man
This doesn't feel like a memory leak. It feels like there's something that counts how long it's been since an open game state and goes "okay you've activated 200 (or whatever) cards since the last open game state, that's not a thing that's supposed to happen, you lose now" that's there as a fail safe to prevent stuff they couldn't think of from looping forever.
That had to be intentional. It causing a connection error after x amount of loops. That way people get punished for causing them. Or maybe it is a memory problem. There was someone who tried to fusion summon using 100+ monsters and as soon as it hit the field the guy was forced into the same connection error. Either way it’s pretty impressive Konami programmed the game the way they did.
That being said, the only true infinite loop I got myself in wasn’t even my fault. I was doing a solo duel in the World Chalice story and the AI was put into an infinite loop because it could not decide whether or not to tribute its own monster. It would flash one of the cards like it’s about to use it as tribute or link material and then it cancels that action. And the AI was so confused that it would repeat that infinitely. And since there’s no timer on Solo duels I had no choice but to hit Surrender and try again.
Maybe he should try to pull off an infinite loop in one of the Solo Duels and see if the same thing happens.
That one isnt an infinite loop persay it was a programming bug. It happens all the time in Duel links and I've only seen it once in Master duel. The A.I would get locked in an infinite loop of ( can I perform "x" action? ) Yes, (perform "x" action?) No. That's how I understood it at least I dont know how to code so that's just an estimate guess.
@@SuperRedNovaDragon I know, but the only way out of it was to surrender lol
My guess is that its because Morphing Jar is so slow compared to Departed Wanghu, so the game kills you for producing no outputs after enough time
Its likely some sort of system to prevent overloading the server with infinite loop which could be an intensional DOS attack to cripple the server.
Dire is becoming my favorite character in this series
Nu
You would make a good stress tester for different Yu-Gi-Oh games
Konami: So, DistantCoder, we think our game is pretty solid.
DC: We'll see about that...
*a few moments later*
DC: They thought of fricking everything here, but I bet they haven't thought of this.
Konami: *surprise motherfucker*
By the looks of it, Konami's already doing fine in that department.
Connection failed definitely seems like a last resort type of thing.
If it was a memory leak the game would slow down, but also I don't think it gets even close to matching the memory you'd use in an average higher level game. There's simply not enough happening to use up that much memory, specially in a streamer's computer.
I'm too lazy to check but I wonder what the total activations (Morphing, All out and Deep seated combined) were in both instances of the test. So far we've seen it immediately kill an automatic no chain loop with skill drain, and cap activations and chain links at 10 and 16 respectively, so this test seems like a definite outlier just outright killing the match.
I posted this in a separate comment but.
The game likely has a timer that runs on the background when the player timer is not running and that gets reset every time your player timer goes down, so what's probably happening here is that the game uses that timer as a failsafe with something like "If (failSafeTimer > 5 minutes) {make the current player discconect}".
This is probably why the first time you died after 11 activations and the second one after more activations, the pot likely took less reveals to trigger on the first couple of activations or you had less cards in deck to begin with, so that resulted in more activations happening in the same timeframe.
Konami Intern: "Bro, please just stop. Come on"
*An Explanation on What's Happening Here:*
If this was a Memory Leak (Meaning Data not being released from RAM when it should be, not running out of RAM) then it would crash the entire Master Duel Program instead of Disconnecting the Player from the Duel. What seems more likely is that there is a limit to the amount of actions that the server can recieve from a Player's Client, by having an infinite quantity of actions to fulfill it would respond with a Disconnect to prevent errors. Maliscious Players are already abusing this interaction by sending Packet Data to the Servers that gets them instantly Disconnected from a Duel and it will not appear in Match History because the Duel never finalised so there was never a Winner.
Of course, I don't have access to the Source Code and I'm not a Master Duel Dev so this is all complete theory - but the required Online Connection heavily suggests that the Servers are responsible for processing the interactions in a Duel and considering sending Packet Data was used to force Opponents to Surrender it reinforces that Master Duel's Servers are the ones doing any Disconnecting.
Hey there, I was (possibly) the first dood in chat to suggest it was a memory leak. I only used that term because the Shadowverse community often refers to it whenever they explain that game's various infinite loops. The difference with those loops however is that the looper's opponent disconnects instead and that is the full extent of what I know. I have never faced a looper so I wouldn't know if they ever caused the opponent's client to Alt-F4 itself.
In short, what I'm saying is that I and that community have no idea what we're talking about. :^)
I also don't think it could be a memory leak, but also the server is never getting an "infinite" amount of requests. It simply processes the loop, and starts over. Not really any space for memory leaks or many server requests (except if you are implying that there is a fixed cap on the number of requests that can happen during a single game/turn, which i don't think is the case). I think they just have some simple code to check for a loop, or if too much time has elapsed with your clock not reducing, and disconnecting you is just the simplest way they found to solve that.
@@sharpedged7830 "The server is never getting an "infinite" amount of requests. It simply processes the loop, and starts over."
No difference between repeating the same loop forever or trying to process an infinite amount of requests. Those are two ways of saying the same thing...
@@itsaname3986 There is a difference, imagine a recursive procedure calling itself forever, in this case the server will need to keep track of the previous calls to the procedure and will eventually break when it runs out of memory. The loop we are talking about will only take up a bit of memory on the call stack, reset the memory and loop again forever. If you left your computer running a youtube video forever on loop it will run infinitely (assuming no hardware failure / power outage), but if a virus starts spam opening windows your computer will eventually crash.
@@sharpedged7830 you're overcomplicating a simplification made for the purpose of a general explanation?
The game likely has a timer that runs on the background when the player timer is not running and that gets reset every time your player timer goes down, so what's probably happening here is that the game uses that timer as a failsafe with something like "If (failSafeTimer > 5 minutes) {make the current player discconect}".
This is probably why the first time you died after 11 activations and the second one after more activations, the pot likely took less reveals to trigger on the first couple of activations or you had less cards in deck to begin with, so that resulted in more activations happening in the same timeframe.
More than likely the game has a fail safe for infinites where if the same action leads to the same result which incurs the same action, it disconnects. Just in case they overlooked something
If an action repeats identically 10 times, the game will force the 11th loop to not resolve.
Yeah thats the weird thing. It does have an anti loop failsafe and we know it, but DCing you isn't it. After 10 loops, the 11th activation will resolve without effect, ending the loop.
@@kanemello except for some reason it continued after 10 loops. Maybe the disconnect is it's backup failsafe just in case something loops past 10x.
@@Nocturne989 I posted this in a separate comment but.
The game likely has a timer that runs on the background when the player timer is not running and that gets reset every time your player timer goes down, so what's probably happening here is that the game uses that timer as a failsafe with something like "If (failSafeTimer > 5 minutes) {make the current player discconect}".
This is probably why the first time you died after 11 activations and the second one after more activations, the pot likely took less reveals to trigger on the first couple of activations or you had less cards in deck to begin with, so that resulted in more activations happening in the same timeframe.
@@murua44 Honestly that's very likely the scenario. There could also be some kind of arbitrary range of the timer so that players don't discover an exact value and adjust their trolling/looping to get as close to the DC timer as possible without going over, a literal Chicken Game lol
Konami: Players, here is Master Duel. An official Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Simulator by First Party Company. Have fun and enjoy!
Coder: Let's break this sumbitch!
Coder is really out there bug testing the crap out of this game basically for free.
He is job Is un danger cause dueling book Is dying lol
He's actually paying to test lmao. He has to get cards for the loops.
@@TheGoldenRater i know , Is just a joke, i was jokingly
Next mystery for the gang:
Does MD disconnect you if you play next to a microwave?
@@IDESTROYER236 I've tested this. Only if you have lasagna in the microwave and activate chain link 6.
game: prevent infinite loops
twitch chat: unplayable
Six Sam Players: I want to do my combo 100 times and get plenty of counters.
Master Duel: So you have chosen death.
coder is a mad scientist trying to create a superweapon but it keeps exploding in his face haha
Coder: "Let's make a loo-"
Konami: "DID I ASK? NOO!"
Konami: "Banning you? No, I'm sentencing you to THE JAR."
Appreciate the "Three of them thangss"
Something similar happens with overload fusion btw, if you activate it with around 100 target the game just explodes the moment it tries to calculate chimera overdragon's attack. Not really a loop but it is interesting how the game doesn't like you pulling certain things.
Considering how well coded this game is, just remember the game was rumored to be released at around 2020 or late 2019 which is the height of the pandemic. But given the amount of financial resources they pulled from Duel Links and the OCG/TCG, they must've hired good programmers and devs, not only that, some suits at Konami HQ probably did their damn best to convince their higher-ups to give the game more time and not announce the release until Oct of 2021. They also probably hired or consulted veteran OCG/TCG players too but keep the meetings confidential.
Your content is great bro. Is fun watching you figure this stuff out with chat.
Konami probably is using DFS loop detection, which would explain how they can stop all types of loops without hard coding them, and why there is an anti memory leak failsafe that causes a connection issue, since DFS loop detection takes up a lot of memory
The game normally stops infinite loops by not allowing an action to repeat itself an 11th time. Maybe the disconnect is a backup failsafe just in case the 10 loop limit is somehow bypassed by something like what Coder discovered here.
I'm glad Konami caught all of these, imagine having to scoop after watching a loop for twenty minutes that does absolutely nothing.
I think the devs develop some cut-downs if the player attempts to play an infinite loop algorithm and tries to destroy the game, then it must be detected by a certain amount of repeated effects, and resolutions. Another thing here is that maybe someone from the devs overlooks the loop matches so that they could cut down the match.
They definitely don't have someone watching every game lmfao. There are hundreds of thousands of people playing
So for a lot of other loops, the game is aware which card is causing it and breaks the loop by destroying that card as a game action
I think this is a memory error that shows what happens for the loops that slip through the cracksz
>Someone in the dev team watching this random match out of the possible 5ish million matches
Bruh, I swear you can tell a person's age just from comments like these.
@@holierthanu1 I'll take this one as a good point
I assume what happened there at the end was that the game recognised that you had only swords of deep seated and morphing jars in the deck and forced a loss upon you.
The reason the amount of times morphing jar was different every time is because the amount of times morphing jar had to activate to only leave the swords and itself in the deck was random.
They said in the first attempt with double jar and sword that he still has other random cards left
There is the possibility that the game is coded to empty it's memory in a way that works off of different actions that were taken, which for example would explain why it makes multiple chains to resolve 17+ mandatory effects. But as you resolve the same couple of actions over and over with this loop the game might not empty it's memory as there are still actions resolving, causing either the connection to fail to prevent a stream of overlapping data your opponents machine might not be able to handle.
Or it might just do that as a smoke screen, basically just lying to you to condition you to not use those decks as the game engine might have no way to correctly handle those, admittetly extremely rare, cases of unstoppable loops.
There's a clause in the official rules that infinite loops with no net value do not resolve like the Pole Position issue. Realistically All Out Attacks would destroy itself once it reached an infinite loop
When the Jar is no longer Morphing
Of course it knows about the Morphing Jar 2 loop, there's enough banned cards due to a looping FTK outside of the cards that themselves loop, they're going to account for it.
Seems unlikely to be a memory leak directly causing the disconnect, that would look more like the game slowing down until it crashes, but forcing a disconnect *could* be an anti-memory leak failsafe if this is actually making the game take up more memory over time. I think more likely though it's unrelated to memory issues and instead it's some other sort of failsafe that forces a disconnect to prevent neverending duels.
So in this case it is probably memory related. But so far I am impressed how many stress testing this game had to go to be green lighted at all. It didn't really break or showed an error message or closed on itself even once yet
very impressed with the coding effort here.
Loop detection is actually a difficult problem to solve.
I love dire, dire adds so much to the videos :)
The interesting thing here is that All-Out Attacks should have been destroyed by game mechanics, yet it wasn't.
Though technically the game state could be different with each chain, since it varies how many Sword of Deep Seated there are in the deck/GY when the next part of the loop starts.
Maybe the "connection failed" error happened because there's a check to count how many cards effects happened since the last time a player played a card and, once it hits a certain number, assumes it's an infinite loop and ends the duel.
NEVERMIND I LIED- shows “Dark honest”
This game is too damn smart, it’s ridiculous
Also the Connection Failed message reminds me of what happened to someone who tried fusing over 100 monsters into one fusion (chimeratech over dragon I believe) so I think it is a memory thing, like it’s too much information to process
Haha, you know, I think it says something about the game that pretty much all of these loops involve old cards..lol, it really was a wild time back then.
Konami like, "You can't shuffle Morphing Jar #2 into the deck if you don't have a deck"
Also I might imagine that Konami has something that says, "If you use the same card effect like 15 times in a single turn then it's most likely an infinite loop" and gives you an auto-loss. Infertnity players on Xyz Festival Watch.
If you want to do more testing you should have the opponent run Dark Designator so they can search the required pieces for you.
We've seen the game lock loops at 10 activations, and the game pops effect contradiction loops by breaking a card, autoloss likely occurs because of how long the loop took physically
New meta: Eldlich strikers + morphing jar 🤩
Its fair to say the developers built this game to not fall prey to loops like this
The first one is simple if player has 0 cards in deck don't resolve jar
The last loop is deffinatally not a memory leak as there is no way you're using enough memory and even if it was thats not how it would manifest. If I were to guess the game checks how many times jar has resolved targeting itself or while x gy condition is met and shuts the lobby down but idk
Damn man they knew about morphing jar#2 holy shit
what I beleive it happens, all your cards in deck have ID attached to it
the game checks your stats at every chain start and end
if nothing changes ( hand, field, grave, banish, extra, lifepoints ) or you keep "shuffling" your deck
they force an end to it after a limit is exceeded
Whoever said it was a memory leak is 100% wrong lol. This is probably a check with in the mandatory effects resolving. If the same cards are causing an infinite loop then it might just disconnect you as like a final fail safe. Eg it looked ahead and it saw that morphing jar #2 and the equip spell creating the same exact chain more than X times so it made you quit. Try this with like 4-5 different cards to confirm.
Yeah they obviously don't know what a memory leak is lmfao
I mean, thats simple to code. Just check if there are no cards in Deck after activation. We do the same thing for ignis, or if the only cards in your Deck are Morphing Jat #2s
Literally the people typing "HOW" are so annoying lmao
Well yeah its simple to code, but the fact that they went and found (as far as we know) every single card that can infinatly loop and fix them, is insane
@@marciamakesmusic it's mostly a them not forgetting to add another rule specific for just one card in one situation, most of the game is developed in probably more complex lines of code as base than just this one 'if... then' check, but this one you would have to be aware of the loop it creates and bandage it, which I think is the surprise element
I think it doesn't have to do with amount of activations. I think it's just that if enough time passes with the game playing itself (with neither of the players having any options), the game just disconnects, regardless of if it's a loop or not. It just assumes it is, and ends the match so it doesn't keep using up the servers unnecessarily.
Agreed, I think there's a second timer when the game timer is paused ticking down. and if it reaches a certain amount without any game change, it does the connection error.
It could be, it would also explain why the number of activations varied, its not random. Simply one of the tries took more time to resolve the effects (in average) than the other one, so less activations happened before the disconnect. (For example, more swords were triggered)
Also, its fairly easy to do, and you just need to make sure the timer is long enough. Like, a couple of minutes.
IIRC I believe this also happens in LOD: LE. To clarify: it stops if there are no cards currently in your deck.
(edit) I made this comment before your second test. But I do remember something similar happening in LOD: LE. I didn't bother doing further testing after I saw that the combo ends for reasons(???). I was also using it in conjunction with Needle Worm. The combo would end before my opponent would get decked out.
Back in the day. When MRL first came out, I dueled against one of my friends at locals and we got stuck in a morphing jar #2 sword of deep seated loop. Mj2 resolves then the sword goes on top. We didn't know back then. 😂
Master Duel Loops is my new favorite segment 😂
That is incredible. Absolutely the craziest shit is possible in this game 🤣
Poor Dire. Hang in there!
Hey, Coder. If you're planning on stress testing the game, I just saw a video where a person made a Chimeratech Overdragon using over 100 materials and the duel crashed like in this loop. It'd be cool to see how many materials can go into a single fusion before the game dies.
My theory is that it reads the timer isn’t going down for a set period of time and disconnects you based on that.
I hecking love watching loops please don't start uploading different things because I want to see 10 more loops
[Theory]
It isn't a memory leak, if was a mem leak something else would have broken, you could even get windows to crash if was it. The thing that makes more sense to me it is a timer (proprably server sided), before the final loop atempt you activeted the Sword more then 6 times, which makes the chain longer, wasting more time, on the final atempt you actived only 4-5 sword, because of that you got more activations of Jar because your wasted less time. If my theory is right, if you can quickly send all the filler cards to the grave, leaving only 1 Sword and 1 Jar (maybe 2 for safety), you can waste less time, making the loop longer, of course once the timer ends you will get dced, but in a online duel you opp proprably gonna scoop before the timer ends.
i use morphing jar 2 combo with flip monsters as princess of tsurugi and des koala, along with buvonic vermin and gravekeeper's scout to swarm the field
@DistantCoder toons can actually cause the game to lock itself, if you have toon black luster and 1 other toon monster in hand that is lv7 or lower, the game will let you activate toon bls effect to special and then when it tells you to tribute it will give you option to select other monster but won't actually let you select, the game then gets stuck in that moment, only way out is to surrender
Grass is greenest.
It would actually be 5head if Konami kept in memory leaks, to guarantee no loops from happening
Did they ever try the monarch loop?
It's not infinite, cause it requires input (so the timer does still decrease), but it loops cards back into your deck and your opponent's so it never goes to deckout (so potentially veeeeery high turn counter). In duel links when i did it in an ai duel i think it was at round 56 that it pulled the plug automatically.
The loop is just having the prime monarch on the field and continuously summoning erebus the underworld monarch.
Erebus, when sent to grave, can once per turn retun itself to hand, so having 2 in deck is enough to always cycle. Erebus on discarding from hand or deck 2 monarch spell/traps, can shuffle 1 card your opponent has in their hand, field, graveyard back into the deck (so they never deck out).
Prime monarch can then shuffle your 2 discarded spell/traps back into the deck, so you can keep repeating it turn after turn. It's not as flashy and not really infinite because of the timer, but it would push the round counter to its limit.
It can’t result in no game state because then all-out attack is stopped. If you had hiro’s shadow scout then it continues the loop
If you could find a way to auto send outstanding dog marron to the grave inside of this loop it should in theory keep going because it's effect will auto put it back into the deck
... Yeah. I ran a deck that worked off the combo, with a hiro's shadow scout and three copies of MJ2. The idea was mill yourself down to your three MJ2s and 1 HSS, and having two monsters on the field.
And in regards to "the only cards in the deck are MJ2", I've tested this with the above formula.
Did you tested the Pole Position loop?
I would like to see how the game deals with this loop
It sends pole position to grave because it is the problem card in the loop, just like skill drain getting sent in the jinzo loop coder already covered
@@eratheoracle pole isnt in master duel
>he doesn't know
@@pacesalsaboy3728 If it were, that's what would happen tho. We've been given a basis to extrapolate from with the skill drain example, so I extrapolated to what would happen with pole position. I don't really pay enough attention to the ocg banlist to know that pole was banned (and thus not in MD) and couldn't be bothered to look it up.
My point is that it doesn't matter that it isn't in MD, what matters is clarifying the ruling of what would happen if it were to be in MD, as that answers the question posed. If you want to tell someone that Pole isn't in md, tell OP, cus they're the one who asked, not me
Yo this was actually entertaining I’m subscribing 😂
Why is this so entertaining
Konami* Goddammit he's at it again!!
I feel like what Konami might have done is to have simulated the game ahead of what is being displayed at a high speed, whenever an effect is activated, and if it causes a long enough loop, it will stop that effect from activating. There are just way too many scenarios that causes loops that Konami would have otherwise had to program for, and it would make no sense if they did so.
should try it with an opponents monster
The only explanation is that Konami watches Coder’s stream and is like “nahh bro u not breaking my game”
Clearly the play is to have both players set up morphing jar #2 and have the game explode.
Oh yeah, that seems like a timeout problem, but it's kinda weird considering how many requests happen naturally on a duel
A memory leak is highly unlikely, you would activate jar at least 100 time before any crash, that is IF there is any leak in the code
Can we get some love for Dire doing all this work
The effect doesn't activate because it says put it at your top of your deck but since u have no deck it doesnt activate
I know that the whole point was to make this as automatic as possible, but if we wanted to truly test how long this could go on, perhaps allow the opponent to activate some junk in response to the morphing jar's activation. It does seem to be that the game has said "it has been x amount of minutes since the timer has gone down, so we're kicking you". It's good to test all variables.
alan turing in shambles
Probably when your timer doesnt go lower for a determined amount of time the game just disconnects you
There is a list of all known loops on the Yugioh wiki, so there is a good chance Konami Is prepared for them.
I think the AI confuses the Loop with a error of performance thus forcing an end to the connection the same way you shut the power of your console when the console freezes.
Kinamit probably hired people like Coder to test every possible loop lol
As long as you're doing these loop testing, I'd like to see some Pole Position shenanigans
Already tested with Skill Drain.
It'll be sent to GY
These are amazing. Wow.
I thought it was just some kind of "stall for time" penalty at first, but maybe it's just running out of log space and cutting off whatever side caused the last action or the loop as a consequence. Regardless if how it was caused that was pretty hilarious.
Now if there was a win-con in the deck that related to you milling spells to burn the opponent ibwonder if the loop would be forced stop considering there would be an end goal eventually
I’m not the most skilled programmer ever, but I’m gonna have to guess the issue is actually caused by the Sword of Deep Seated not making the loop closed, or the Morphing Jar #2 not being the same one each time. It would be very easy to make a system that can detect a closed loop repeating the exact same action in a closed game state for 10 times, but very difficult with a random amount of Deep Seated being milled and two different Morphing Jars taking turns
The Morphing Jar copies definitely isn't the issue, the rules do not consider a card that went to the GY or Deck and then returned to be the same copy of the card in the first place, the Deep Seated likely are the reason, but I suspect the cause is that there is no input/output save for the loop for an amount of physical time, thus why it kills instead of just dying like Departed Wanghu or popping like Skill Drain Royal Decree Jinzo
Could be just the timer and the number of activations since the timer has stopped. Clicking on your screen doesn't affect the actual gameplay.
A Unity Memory leak would just cause the game to crash... unless Konami is using both a scan of a repeated gamestate while monitoring the memory usage of the game to determine a cutoff point and prevent the game from just crashing
So now I'm curious on this question (hopefully you might try it out) will it stop you if you do the avian and thunderbird combo?
because of clickbaity title, i straigth gone to the end of the video still unclear.
Bad English and the game kicked him out of the game when he tried to loop the game.
Me inside my head talking to the internet movie end and realized that no wonder people pay so much for just one card. “Why do you think we spend so much money just to beat everyone and nobody really would like to know.”
Me: AE86 plays it’s that stupid answer that your friends wants to kill me so bad then can I bring in my own dumb wish. This game really does bring the death of a fake game that makes it looks so cool.
Opponents: proceeds to kill me or leave me out of the secret club
I never thought this would come up for me, but I literally *just* faced off against someone who was using the Morphing Jar #2 + All Out Attacks but he was running a gambling deck intent on flipping up Dice Jar and Morphing Jar #2. But here's the kicker: WE (presumably) *BOTH* FORGOT THAT I ACTIVATED ONE DAY OF PEACE THE PRIOR TURN SO _NEITHER_ OF US COULD TAKE DAMAGE FROM THE DICE JARS!!! 🤣😂🤣 So we're just sitting there watching this loop go on constantly and milling literally *EVERYTHING* THAT WASN'T THOSE 6 CARDS just going "Uhhhhhh..."
It was 3 monsters being summoned at a time too, so there was always at least 1 Morphing Jar #2 to keep the loop going. But then he either realized he was screwed or thought it would go on infinitely and he'd lose to a timeout and quit before the loop could be canceled. (It wasn't just a sudden cancel, the bad connection symbol was showing over his profile picture so they definitely left.)
Remember when it halted that other loop after 10 times? Yeah this is similar, I'm going to say logs run out of space lmao
What if you play outstanding dog maron and prohibition on it? Would it go to gy and then back to deck since it can't be summoned because of prohibition. Or not activate at all?
I was wondering is the the first example of what the game does, if the code doesn't find a solution.
Ergo: Any time a loop successfully causes the game to reach a state that it can't solve. KICK / DC the triggering player. If so that is some spice....