I have been listening to Enoch podcasts from the faithful side. So, the timing of this episode is great! Joseph Smith possesses great skill at redefining history and theology based on 19th-century views. I don't expect his views on Enoch to be any different. I do want to read Mark's book and Bradshaw's books to compare the views.
I appreciate the work of scholars like this, truly, but Abraham Lincoln is still holding the cell phone, and none of this gets around that. It's just so weird to me that there's even a discussion to be had here.
What about Lincoln’s DeLorean, or his blender, or his iPad, or his LearJet, or his microwave, etc, etc. That’s the problem with the Lincoln with a cellphone analogy. There isn’t just *one* anachronism in the BoM.
The Book of Enoch that was translated in 1821 is very similar to post-Exilic apocalyptic literature. It is quite different from Moses 6-8, except in very broad themes. However, there are some interesting ideas in the Book of Enoch that seem to come up a lot in Joseph's later theology. I aim for minimalism in explaining what Joseph is doing, and I see a lot more of the Book of Mormon in Moses 6-8 than I do of the Book of Enoch.
1:07:00 The quote from JS here was in 1835, years after his Enoch was written. I don't think you need to draw this connection to the Book of Enoch. The Book of Mormon connects apocalyptic visions to Revelation, which suggests this was just how Joseph saw the pattern of prophecy. It seems like every translation goes back to Genesis (the brass plates, 2 Nephi 2, Ether, Moses, Abraham), and eventually, some prophet sees the end from the beginning (Nephi, Mahonri Moriancumer, Moses, Enoch). Daniel and Revelation can account for Son of Man language (Joseph cites Daniel a lot as well). When scholars point out that the author of Revelation and is influenced by the Book of Enoch, there is a fundamentally different context than there is for a JS 1835 quote when his own writings about Enoch were already influencing his and the Saints understanding of Enoch. I left a lengthy comment on the Murph's recent video about this topic where I said a lot of the same.
1:18:00 Lehi and co. were pre-Exilic First Temple Jews. The apocalyptic literary genre that appears in 1 Nephi is anachronistic. As another commenter put it, this is Abraham Lincoln holding a cell phone.
You are such a handsome couple with good head on your shoulders! As a nevermormon you explain everything so clear so thank you both Rebecca and Landon!!!!!!
If you set up a three-ring-circus (like a "theatre in the round") - nothing can be called "anachronistic" nor can creation dates of anything be conclusive. Quite convenient.
Im curious since Enoch is such a magical text, I wonder if there's evidence of people incorporating Enoch into their magic practices that Joseph would been exposed to
That's a really good point! I feel like he could have become aware from his folkmagic sources and some religious sources. Enoch was in the air at the time!
Joseph was one of a kind, me personally I stand all amazed, i would follow him straight to hell and I know he would make a heaven of it. If i had to choose between Jesus and Joseph, I would choose Joseph all day every day he truly knew the son of man
we know that Adam wrote a book, so certainly Enoch had writing. just because we don't have any writing prior to the Sumerians does not say there were no ante-diluvian writings. I'm not saying the book of Enoch was written by Enoch. only countering the assertion that Enoch had no writing.
Looks like someone has not shed the Mormon cloak..time to move on and accept latter day revelation instead of living in the past of errors..Subject matter is worthy although limited in understanding in being taught, nevertheless its a good foundation.
Look up Enmeduranki an ancient Sumerian King. His story is on stone tablets and hieroglyphs. Enmeduranki may have been the name of Enoch before the book of Enoch was written. The story of Enmeduranki was taken up to heaven just like Enoch. Also Azazel is in the dead sea scroll book of Leviticus in chapter 16 verse 6-10. If you are reading your KJV you won't see it because they translated Azazel into Scapegoat. This is why Araon and Moses make atonement. There are many things you can find of simple miss trainlastion of the Bible. The DSS Bible is the oldest Bible. The next interesting thing you will find in the DSS Bible is lusicfer doesn't exist. Because lusicfer is Greek so Isaiah 14:12 says O Day Star Son of Morning. Revelations 22:16 Jesus says he is the Morning Star. These little things change things a little but still satan is satan so whatever his name is he still satan.
Interesting that you’re giving credibility to someone who was disfellowshipped from the LDS church and has repeatedly claimed to have knowledge from God that no one else understands due to his diagnosed psychiatric disorder. Very realiable scholarly information 👍
If he was in fact disfellowshipped that would give credibility to his scholarship. Every scholar who speaks truth the church attempts to silence. He has written a book on the subject anyone can read and determine the validity of his claims for themselves.
This is ridiculous! Who is this Mark Lines? it seems like he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. One of my grand sons Raymond sent me this. He’s about to leave on his mission to Chicago. He said I should check it out because it is for sure. Interesting. I was confused a whole entire time and I watched the whole entire podcast to see what Mark had to say. I am very concerned about people that are part of the church and that are saying stuff that’s not true.
NO! the gulf of Mexico was NOT formed by the comet (or asteroid/meteor) that wiped out the Dinosaurs. while it is true that that meteor hit along the gulf coast of Mexico, it's crater is MUCH SMALLER and does not account for the entire Gulf. it is only about 125 miles wide. so, nice try to refute Joseph with completely FALSE INFORMATION
Oh hell nah what even is this crap. This makes no sense whatsover. I'm LDS and I don't think this is good for my religion or the church. I don't know what the “author“ was thinking when it wrote this. Extremely disappointed. I'm 29 with 2 children 8 and 4 and I told them not to listen to any nonsense about the church or people lying about the church. My husband Alexie thought this was also wierd cant believe anyone would say this. :(
@@townsendv58because it seemed interesting. Watched about 30 minutes of it and I was so confused the whole time. This has to be taken down so LDS people don’t hear lies about the church. This is my opinion and my husband’s opinion. I don’t even know who this Mark is but whoever he is he needs to burn his book that’s all lies. You might not think that it’s all a lie but I do. My husband is very upset as well.
![Merry Smithmas! [the Mormon Newscast 12.23.24]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/v49qrEQN8ec/mqdefault.jpg)
![Merry Smithmas! [the Mormon Newscast 12.23.24]](/img/tr.png)
I’m perplexed by this whole episode
I have been listening to Enoch podcasts from the faithful side. So, the timing of this episode is great!
Joseph Smith possesses great skill at redefining history and theology based on 19th-century views.
I don't expect his views on Enoch to be any different.
I do want to read Mark's book and Bradshaw's books to compare the views.
Perfect answer! Always study the sources and weigh the evidence!
Well done! Loved learning more about the book of Enoch.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Unbiased - great research. 👏
Mark Lines is one of my favorite people. I loved reading his analysis in his insightful book.
We really enjoyed getting to know him!
Great Topic. Thanks!
Emanuel Swedenborg teachings had Influence on Joseph Smith's Theology too!
Fascinating thanks !
Our pleasure!
Didn't Smith's brother Hiram attend Dartmouth? He may have been the one to have learned about the book of Enoch first, and introduced it to him.
I appreciate the work of scholars like this, truly, but Abraham Lincoln is still holding the cell phone, and none of this gets around that. It's just so weird to me that there's even a discussion to be had here.
Unfortunately people overlook Abraham Lincoln’s cell phone because of the Book of Enoch proves he could have had a cell phone! Lol
You are absolutely right Sally.
What about Lincoln’s DeLorean, or his blender, or his iPad, or his LearJet, or his microwave, etc, etc. That’s the problem with the Lincoln with a cellphone analogy. There isn’t just *one* anachronism in the BoM.
The Book of Enoch that was translated in 1821 is very similar to post-Exilic apocalyptic literature. It is quite different from Moses 6-8, except in very broad themes. However, there are some interesting ideas in the Book of Enoch that seem to come up a lot in Joseph's later theology. I aim for minimalism in explaining what Joseph is doing, and I see a lot more of the Book of Mormon in Moses 6-8 than I do of the Book of Enoch.
1:07:00 The quote from JS here was in 1835, years after his Enoch was written. I don't think you need to draw this connection to the Book of Enoch. The Book of Mormon connects apocalyptic visions to Revelation, which suggests this was just how Joseph saw the pattern of prophecy. It seems like every translation goes back to Genesis (the brass plates, 2 Nephi 2, Ether, Moses, Abraham), and eventually, some prophet sees the end from the beginning (Nephi, Mahonri Moriancumer, Moses, Enoch). Daniel and Revelation can account for Son of Man language (Joseph cites Daniel a lot as well). When scholars point out that the author of Revelation and is influenced by the Book of Enoch, there is a fundamentally different context than there is for a JS 1835 quote when his own writings about Enoch were already influencing his and the Saints understanding of Enoch.
I left a lengthy comment on the Murph's recent video about this topic where I said a lot of the same.
1:18:00 Lehi and co. were pre-Exilic First Temple Jews. The apocalyptic literary genre that appears in 1 Nephi is anachronistic. As another commenter put it, this is Abraham Lincoln holding a cell phone.
I found the WoW by going through the Book of Enoch.
2020, searching pharmakeia
Pharmacokinetics and Mark 14: 50-51, What was the fake Jesus doing in a park at 4am with a Naked Boy?
@@marklines260 Sorry you confused through with in.
Is this live? thx
Premiers are not live
You are such a handsome couple with good head on your shoulders! As a nevermormon you explain everything so clear so thank you both Rebecca and Landon!!!!!!
If you set up a three-ring-circus (like a "theatre in the round") -
nothing can be called "anachronistic" nor can creation dates of anything be conclusive.
Quite convenient.
Mark Lines.... pretty sure we served in the same mission under President Lyons.
Make Lines was my neighbor and ward member for many years. He’s NOT a good person. Someone should interview him about what he did to Emily.
Im curious since Enoch is such a magical text, I wonder if there's evidence of people incorporating Enoch into their magic practices that Joseph would been exposed to
That's a really good point! I feel like he could have become aware from his folkmagic sources and some religious sources. Enoch was in the air at the time!
@@mormonishpodcast1036
Absolutely.
Joseph was one of a kind, me personally I stand all amazed, i would follow him straight to hell and I know he would make a heaven of it. If i had to choose between Jesus and Joseph, I would choose Joseph all day every day he truly knew the son of man
Glad to know you would follow him to hell! Thanks for sharing.
The Book of Mormon says, Woe unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell". So the address checks out.
we know that Adam wrote a book, so certainly Enoch had writing. just because we don't have any writing prior to the Sumerians does not say there were no ante-diluvian writings. I'm not saying the book of Enoch was written by Enoch. only countering the assertion that Enoch had no writing.
How do we know Adam had writing? I’m unaware of anything Adam wrote.
@@mormonishpodcast1036I think Adam wrote “East Of Eden”…oh wait, that was John Steinbeck.
2 Nephi 9:34
There are TWO Enochs in Genesis, aren't there?
The book contains heresy, such as portraying Enoch as a divine messiah figure, which conflicts with scripture.
Well of course Hoseph only recieved revelation on the true parts of the book ( ie those that agree with what he taught)! Lol
Looks like someone has not shed the Mormon cloak..time to move on and accept latter day revelation instead of living in the past of errors..Subject matter is worthy although limited in understanding in being taught, nevertheless its a good foundation.
Look up Enmeduranki an ancient Sumerian King. His story is on stone tablets and hieroglyphs. Enmeduranki may have been the name of Enoch before the book of Enoch was written. The story of Enmeduranki was taken up to heaven just like Enoch. Also Azazel is in the dead sea scroll book of Leviticus in chapter 16 verse 6-10. If you are reading your KJV you won't see it because they translated Azazel into Scapegoat. This is why Araon and Moses make atonement. There are many things you can find of simple miss trainlastion of the Bible. The DSS Bible is the oldest Bible. The next interesting thing you will find in the DSS Bible is lusicfer doesn't exist. Because lusicfer is Greek so Isaiah 14:12 says O Day Star Son of Morning. Revelations 22:16 Jesus says he is the Morning Star. These little things change things a little but still satan is satan so whatever his name is he still satan.
Interesting that you’re giving credibility to someone who was disfellowshipped from the LDS church and has repeatedly claimed to have knowledge from God that no one else understands due to his diagnosed psychiatric disorder. Very realiable scholarly information 👍
If he was in fact disfellowshipped that would give credibility to his scholarship. Every scholar who speaks truth the church attempts to silence. He has written a book on the subject anyone can read and determine the validity of his claims for themselves.
Where did you get that information?
This is ridiculous! Who is this Mark Lines? it seems like he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. One of my grand sons Raymond sent me this. He’s about to leave on his mission to Chicago. He said I should check it out because it is for sure. Interesting. I was confused a whole entire time and I watched the whole entire podcast to see what Mark had to say. I am very concerned about people that are part of the church and that are saying stuff that’s not true.
What did he say that wasn’t true?
@@mormonishpodcast1036 all of it was very confusing and concerning to me and my whole family. I don't think this right for mormons or any religion
@@KatieAllamandvery true I agree with you. This is not correct or good for any LDS people or any one of any religion.
It’s not true because it doesn’t conform to your beliefs?
NO! the gulf of Mexico was NOT formed by the comet (or asteroid/meteor) that wiped out the Dinosaurs. while it is true that that meteor hit along the gulf coast of Mexico, it's crater is MUCH SMALLER and does not account for the entire Gulf. it is only about 125 miles wide. so, nice try to refute Joseph with completely FALSE INFORMATION
So you are saying the rest of the Gulf of Mexico is from taking up the city of Enoch?
@@mormonishpodcast1036 That is Joseph Smith's claim. I'm just refuting that the gulf was caused by the meteor
A very nice person, but she needs to slow down and talk like a normal person. Too hyper.
And whose parameters are you using, I wonder…
Oh hell nah what even is this crap. This makes no sense whatsover. I'm LDS and I don't think this is good for my religion or the church. I don't know what the “author“ was thinking when it wrote this. Extremely disappointed. I'm 29 with 2 children 8 and 4 and I told them not to listen to any nonsense about the church or people lying about the church. My husband Alexie thought this was also wierd cant believe anyone would say this. :(
So why are you here?
@@townsendv58because it seemed interesting. Watched about 30 minutes of it and I was so confused the whole time. This has to be taken down so LDS people don’t hear lies about the church. This is my opinion and my husband’s opinion. I don’t even know who this Mark is but whoever he is he needs to burn his book that’s all lies. You might not think that it’s all a lie but I do. My husband is very upset as well.
What is lies?
@@mormonishpodcast1036what is grammar?
@@mormonishpodcast1036 all of it