She should have left the door open to Shy after what she did to him. Instead, "I thought we were friends. I'm not falling for that again." He thought you were friends too, darling, and you outed him and put his career and I dare say life in danger. I still love you, Midge, but your apology was half-hearted.
Her cutting him off wasn't done out of spite. Shy made his decision in how he was going to live his life, and that was in fully dedicating himself to a farce. That was why he got rid of his entourage, because they knew his real self, a real self he didn't want to be reminded of. And unlike Midge, those friends were fiercely protective of his secret. But that didn't matter, because he was made to feel such shame by society at large that he couldn't be reminded of that truth. And Midge knew Shy's real self. Rekindling their friendship would have just hurt both of them.
@Veril Bijou Did he dump them, though, or was he forced to by his label? The labels and studios back in the day had a large amount of control over their stars' images back in the day. Rock Hudson married his manager's secretary when a magazine threatened to out him. Rita Hayworth was Latino, and the studios - in order to make her a star and maintain her stardom - forced her to change her entire look and dye her hair in order to pass as white. And the celebrities went along if they wanted to maintain any livelihood at all or face being blackballed by the industry. Shy could very well have been forced to dump all the people who knew he was gay just to maintain that image of ladies man crooner in order to ensure that no rumours could ever be verified.
Honestly, I don't think Midge's "not falling for that again" is over her firing necessarily (because she did fuck up), but more about the way he clearly is willing to throw away all the people in his life who appeared to be like family to protect his career. We can all understand that Shy probably felt he had no choice in all that-- due to his legal contracts, due to the inherent dangers of outing in the 60s, ect-- but a position being understandable doesn't make it tenable. The record label could ask him to throw Midge away as a friend at literally any moment due to her being a talking risk, and he would do it, and that would hurt her. The fact that he privately wishes it could be any other way doesn't remove the potential for future hurt. I actually really find it interesting how this scene frames the difficulty of ally-ship across different struggles. Midge faces struggle as a comic due to her gender, Shy faces struggles as a singer due to the colour of his skin and his sexuality, and the two of them could truly be great friends if they both weren't so willing to put their careers ahead of everything. But the both of them had to fight and claw their way into show biz due to who they were born as, and two disenfranchised people in the same business should be able to empathize and understand each other and make great friends, but they have to keep fighting for their career and are willing to do it at the expense of the other and that puts them in opposition rather than on the same side. Really, isn't that the age-old struggle of disenfranchisement? That the system is almost designed to keep people disenfranchised is to keep them fighting other disenfranchised people for the few spots they can take rather than banding together against those who actually benefit from keeping others down.
The thing is, firing Midge was the right thing to do, but if they were friends, she should have been called before they were scheduled to leave. However, they waited until she was on the tarmac to break the news. Firing is a professional move, but what they did was intentionally humiliate her. That's not an act of a friend, which is why she closed the door to any future friendship with him. I do wish they would make up because they were great friends, but I understand Midge's reasoning.
Midge has a real problem with not understanding boundaries. Her joking about her own life is fine, but what she did to Shy (which could’ve gotten him killed if you’re keeping score at home) showed she learned nothing from how much she hurt her friend by telling the whole wedding about her pregnancy. You have to be careful about using friends for content if you truly value those friendships. Them not being friends is very much on her.
Yes! You see this all the time in the show, an reoccurring theme it made sense why Joel didn’t want to marry her because no one would want their personal stuff as material. It’s hurtful and midge just has no understanding of that lol
@@jojoc8229 I think it’s a little more complicated with Joel because it’s her life too. But after that whole mess with the actress and her friend, you’d think she’d learn that telling other people’s secrets can hurt them or in Shy’s case get them hurt.
First, Joel was already married to her. He didn't want to stay married to her. Second, for the love of god, why did you feel the need to end your post with lol. Nothing you said or thought is lol.
@@gheller2261 okay yeah Joel was already married to her and didn’t want to stay married to her that’s what I meant do you want a cookie for being specific 🤔 also I used lol at the end of this post because I wanted to. I don’t feel the NEED to do it and it was used right even if what I said wasn’t humorous I can use it however I like, the real question is why does that bother you so much
I think it's such a cool detail how Midge and Shy have their first interaction in a bathroom and have their (probably) last interaction in another bathroom.
This comment section is wrong in so many ways, y’all completely missed the point of what happened with shy. This was one of the moments that truly showed just how privileged and in over her head midge can sometimes act. Shy is a black gay man in the 60’s people get lynched just for being black not to mention being gay?!? Her words had an impact on this man’s life and she was so focused on being funny she forgot to check herself. She even realizes it when you see how the corporate side of the business completely isolated him and forced him to give up his friends and identity in order to keep his livelihood. Where do you get off feeling sympathy for midge in this situation much less being mad at shy of all people?
@@EyeGlassTrainofMind I feel like that’s a cop out. it’s not judgement to say midge did something bad. That doesn’t mean she’s a bad character and we still feel sympathy for her losing an opportunity but the show makes it clear that her loss is a consequence of her actions. Whereas shy and the consequences that he faced were not of his own actions. Midge hurt him and her actions impacted his life and that of his friends/family. As far as I’m concerned we can’t judge both of them, all shy did was fire her and yes the way he did it embarrassed her but honestly, what did she expect? Even if he wasn’t gay, at that time any performer ( straight or otherwise) and their management would’ve taken action against her for the implication just because of what a threat it was to you to even be thought of as gay. she would’ve been blackballed and probably legal action against her. She was just fired, and she’s recovering from it. The fact that midge was even caught by surprise when they fired her, goes to show something that the show has consistently portrayed( with Sophie Lennon and her friends wedding) that in a lot of ways midge is sheltered and thus privileged, she doesn’t think of consequences a lot of times and it never even occurred to her that she said something wrong until she got fired.
Midge made a misguided decision, but not one made out of malice. Shy didn’t even have the steel to fire her face to face. He chose to embarrass and shame her on that tarmac. I’m not saying he’s wrong to defend his title and safety (especially during these times), but it showed that even during a serious moment he was still a diva and a child.
The two things I wanted from s4 were for Midge to apologize to Shy and for someone to finally get through to her that she was being dumb about refusing to do opening acts. So glad we got both.
Yeah, but by refusing Shy's friendship she once again demonstrated her selfishness. Shy is plainly a lonely man who is lost. I get it, Midge is protecting herself, but sometimes we need to sacrifice our own safety and comfort for other people. Shy needed her friendship and once again she let him down.
@@fvdcalmahWho warns an employee that they are going to be fired? And he was supposed to talk to her after she effectively outed him? A black man in 1960? Come now. She was 100% in the wrong. Had this been written any other way it would have been bad writing.
@@gheller2261 oh hard agree. I hate that she didn't accept his offer of friendship, I almost cried when she saw him outside at the end and didn't go over to him and take it back. He put all the hurt she caused him aside to reach out because he needed someone and her throwing it back in his face was so unbelievably cruel I cannot fathom it. But I really thought until this scene that they were never going to have her admit that she was wrong for making those jokes so I am at least glad that she finally acknowledged her wrongdoing.
Yep. You start with the apology and then maybe explain, even though the apology should be enough. Instead, she prefaced the apology with a story meant to convey "you can understand why I did what I did."
@@gheller2261 she explained that she was selfigh and looking for a laugh and that she used him to get her high. That was part of her apologizing. She said, she could have found something else to laugh about but he was an easy target and she regrets doing that. That wasn't a "prefaced" apology, it was honesty
Yea she's a fucked up person that makes it more entertaining to watch. Of course midge is gonna make it about herself look at literally her entire life she makes everything about her its why she fucks up her relationship with her kids in the future
Film it with green screens in the mirror. Shoot it twice with the 2nd from the other side with the “bathroom” in the background. Sync them up. It’s only a few frames where it’s head on…just a guess 🤷🏾♂️
I cried with Midge when Reggie wouldn't let her and Susie on that plane. Great scene! I wish the writers would allow Reggie and Susie to cross paths again in Season 5!
"If he would've been outed" He wasn't tho. She didn't really out him. Plus Shy got his" revenge" (I'm not saying that he wanted to). He nearly ended her career and humiliated her in a similar way. She was to going but her apartment and get back her life. She couldn't do that anymore. People need to be able to see both of the viewpoints and sympathise with the both of them.
This comment section did really not understand the scene at all. Midge ruined his life. And even in this scene she makes it all about herself never acknowledging that she is the reason for all of this.
@@cherryblack420 it may have not affected his career but it ruined his livelihood. He was forced by his management team to separate from Reggie and his band, people he considered his family, and have a loveless marriage for the sake of his career. The moment Midge slipped was the moment he lost what little freedom he had left.
@@what.the.fwish. But it's a bit mean to blame it on Midge. The plan was ALWAYS to separate from reggie and his band, the people he conidered his family, and to have a loveless marriage for the sake of his career. It's like...imagine theres a hidden bomb that's going to explode at 12:00. A little kid accidentally trips over it at 11:50 and it explodes immediatelly. Is the explosion his fault? I don't think so, since the plan was for it to explode regardless. Midge DID accelerate his isolation. Which is why she apologizes in this scene - and for hurting him. But likewise, Shy was also willing to dump his band + reggie "the people he considered his family" for his career. Midge hurts her family accidentally, Shy does it on purpose. This is why she refuses his invitation to continue being friends.
Midge not letting him in is f*cked up. She didn’t just make a bad call. She could have put his life in danger and she expects him to just let her go with him? He could have been killed. The fact that he even wants to see her again shows a forgiveness in him that she doesn’t deserve. I love Midge as a character, but this wasn’t right and I can’t tell if the show is trying to say she is or not. It’s not a mid “both sides wrong” either.
Yes, both sides were wrong. This isn't black and white. I'm going to copypaste another comment I made: "Midge didn't out him as gay, she made a couple of jokes implying he was a bit effeminate. She would probably have made those exact jokes even if she hadn't known; because they weren't about being gay, they were based on the glitz and glamour of his life. She didn’t see the jokes as being tied to sexuality at all. And likely neither would the audience have. And he didn't just fire her, he waited until she was on the tarmac with her luggage so he could publicly humiliate her. He did wrong by her."
@@funkyfranx implying that he is effeminate is the same as implying he is gay. It’s the 60s. And she knew he was gay. And she also knew that he got beaten up because of it. And she still didn’t see anything wrong with her little judy garland joke. Which could have gotten people to question his sexuality. So you don’t see how this joke this potential rumor is incredibly dangerous for him? Especially since it had some truth to it. He was terrified of this coming out for a reason again midge knew of his sexuality because he got beaten up!
Anyone would have fired her. Oh so he humiliated her too. Oh no. She did the same + she endangered his life. She should be glad he only humiliated her.
@@funkyfranx “She paints a deeply feminine portrait of her so-called friend for laughs. Midge says she met Shy in a ladies' bathroom and he was the prettier one. She jokes that Arthur Miller is going to try to date Shy. One line, “He pretty much has a guy for everything else,” could be taken especially scandalously. As Reggie points out when he fires Midge, a comment about Shy’s “Judy Garland shoes” hit too close to home for the performer. All together, Midge performed a set loaded with stereotypic comments one would use to describe a man as queer in the 1960s without saying it. That is why Shy asks Reggie to fire Midge. No matter what, Midge's comments were dangerous for a Black man in the violently homophobic '60s. But the stand-up's actions are particularly egregious considering her understanding of Shy. Shy is gay. It’s not a rumor or an offensive “joke” - Midge knows, for a fact, that Shy is a gay man. Season 3, episode 6, “Kind of Bleu” confirms as much, as Midge finds Shy battered in the hull of his Miami boat. He explains that the person who assaulted him was a would-be lover he picked up at a bar (it’s suggested he’s talking about a gay bar). The man then turned violent, beating Shy's face and possibly cracking his ribs. Shy is terrified that his secret will get out. He cries over the idea of Reggie learning this horror happened “again” and explains to Midge all the girls he is seen with are for the photos. “You can’t tell [Reggie] you found me like this. You can’t tell anyone,” he begs. Midge agrees.”
People forget that jokes can go too far Even tho maisel didn’t mean too (and I guess the other dude DID technically tell her to do it) It’s still pretty messed up This is in the 60s there was HEAVY restrictions and HEAVY discrimination back then If shy was outed as gay it would utterly DESTROY him It’s all pretty messed up
The other dude did not tell her to out him come on! 🙄 They were all on tour for months and she couldn't find anything else to tell about him than his biggest most life destroying secret?! The one that he told her in private after a physical altercation and that she promised to never tell?! Midge is a selfish gaslighting narcissist for this. Everything has to be about her, even an apology to him. This man is standing in the bathroom having lost everything dear to him, and she has the nerve to berate him about how bad she feels for wanting to get meaningless laughter's from an audience at all cost!
It is an understatement to say that this is my favorite show of all time and also an understanding to say that I'm looking forward to season 5 the final season coming next month and an even bigger understatement to say I'm going to miss the show once it's over but thank goodness with streaming services. I can watch it over and over again if my sad silly heart desires
@@DigiDestined558 By rejecting the olive branch and saying it is because she learned that he is not a real friend. She didn't deserve his forgiveness one bit.
I think some of you are overstating the potential effect of Midge's joke. Shy being outed would have absolutely ended his career, and yes, even potentially put his life in danger. But the relationship of society with homosexuality was extremely complex at the time. It was all about denial. Not just denial about individuals, but denial that it existed at all. There were many gay people then who only barely concealed their proclivities, and yet enjoyed mainstream success by fully embracing that denial. When Midge made her jokes, everyone knew what she was joking about. A huge crowd of people who all knew what he was. Yet you ask any single one of them, and they'll deny any knowledge whatsoever. After all, admitting they were a fan of someone who did such things would implicate them in the "immorality." But her jokes didn't "out" him. It dwelt in that gray area where everyone knows but no one says it. I dare say if you had no suspicions about Shy being gay, you wouldn't get the jokes at all. So I don't think it was the joke that bothered Shy. I think it was the crowd's reaction that bothered him. He probably thought he was hiding it pretty well, so everyone in his town knowing what he was reminded him that he wasn't as deep in the closet as he thought. That's why we see in the aftermath Shy ditch his manager, his entourage, and getting married to a woman. He was retreating deeper into the closet by cutting off anyone who knew who he really was. Which is why Midge was rejecting his friendship, because she knew it would only end badly for the both of them.
Did you miss the episode where shy got beat to shit for being gay? Also 1960 didn’t ignore gay people it was a time society still killed gay people. Especially black gay people. Your thinking 90’s not 60’s
I understand what you’re saying but even if midges jokes didn’t exactly out him the suggestion of it alone was highly dangerous. even if the people in the audience would never admit it the press could have ran with it and absolutely damaged Shy. Because for a celebrity like shy it’s about his image and how people see him, in the show he’s supposed to be somewhat of a ladies man (even though we know and many people around him know that’s not true,)midges joke could have had a disastrous damage on his image ruining his career and thats why they had to do damage control by firing midge to make it seem like what she said was just out of bad blood and getting him married and cutting off anyone who knew about his secret. I think you are right that he was bothered by the crowd’s reaction but I think the biggest part of it was the betrayal, midge rejecting his friendship and saying I’m not falling for that again is ironic when she was the one that ruined the friendship not him, she was the one that took private information and used it for laughs even if she didn’t mean it or thought it was okay she still did it and that betrayal probably hurt shy more than anything else.
I would also like to add that this is the 1960s and Shy is a black man in the music industry. He most likely did not have any say, and whether Reggie got fired or not or whether he should keep his band. Most likely it was all constructed by his management teams, which usually with those contracts he would’ve had very little sa.y in. So not only did Mrs. jokes put him in danger due to the era, but she also gave the studio the opportunity to isolate him from everyone who genuinely cares about him in by rejecting her friendship in the last scene she condemned him to a very lonely life.
Thank you for this psychologically astute character and plot analysis, as opposed to the reactionary, reductive junk psychology of most of the comments here that prioritize one character’s humanity over another’s.
@@MsAliciaRL guess why the band was dumped? Because of her actions that made it clear for the management that things were out of control and that people knew that he was gay, which was illegal and had major consequences in that time period. So they stepped in majorly and fired the band! 🙄 Midge always does this. She fucks over the people close to her and then she has the nerve to be upset about the consequences. Remember when she ruined her friends wedding back in season 2. Or when she couldn't accept that her family and partner were upset about her making her whole comedy based on them and their issues.
@@12wer3wer9 Literally! I can't believe that people are acting that 1) she cares enough about the band that her rejecting forgiveness was not for her but for them, and 2) IT'S HER FAULT THEY'RE GONE. More over, IT IS HER FAULT HE'S GETTING MARRIED LIKE THIS.
@@pathwaytobeingablacksmith9808 That entire apology was about her. Too many people think that when they fuck up, they should be able to apologize whenever they want. And then that final "I learned my lesson" rebuke. She "literally" apologized, but it was wrapped up in narcissism as per usual for this character.
@@goodandsilentThis was actually on brand in Midge’s character. She doesn’t understand things like this even in previous Seasons. She even got mad at Susie for accepting Sophie Lennon as a client.
Midge was in the wrong here. The potential consequences of her set, which range from damaging his career to putting his life in danger, are greater than just damaging her career. Which is what he did-in retaliation and self-protection, after she already transgressed. Not to mention that she was biting the hand feeding her career. I don’t think he was wrong for firing her for that, which is essentially what happened. Maybe I don’t get it, but I don’t think comedians should get a pass for the selfishness they show-publicly holding their friends and family up for humiliation and acting like they have the right to do so. I love Midge, but that’s never sat right with me with this show, and I guess comedy in general.
If all that stuff she said was a mistake, how was she going to stop herself from doing it again? She has ZERO impulse control, and is very vague on accountabliity. Litterally, she get's all the businesses in her area to give her more credit so she can get their services without actually knowing how or when she's going to pay them.
In the end, she got her revenge. It wasn't about her winning...but in the end, he's trapped, he lost, living a false life and lost everyone he got along with. Everyone that tolerated him, gone. He's alone.
Revenge? Are you kidding the victim was Shy and midge is the traitor who ruin his life after he went out of his way to try and help lunch her career. She had nothing to be vengeful for.
@Traci M How did she ruin his life? She didn't do anything except call him feminine and a diva. He was still famous and gained more publicity due to his Marriage and his upcoming movie. And yeah, he was a dick, he left her on the tarmac without even speaking to her after she helped him.
@@ReneAensland this was the 60’s not the 90’s. Feminine for a man just equaled gay. Hence the scene where Susie didn’t know what they were talking about until the “ Judy Garland shoes” comment then instantly new they were talking about him being gay. He helped her long before she help him on that boat and she ruined that with the double cross on stage. Plus the brutal firing was part of damage control to discredit midge. Also he isn’t her only victim. She ruin her coworkers wedding, got her dad fired from bell labs and cost her mom a major client.
@@tracim3080 Are we watching the same show?! No one suspected Shy Baldwin of being gay. Remember Liberaci? He was feminine and still considered a mild sex symbol. And her dad QUIT Bell Labs, are you sure we're watching the same show? Do you not remember how her dad was in a mental spiral and quit Bell Labs by his own volition. And the wedding was hilarious, I'll give you that one.
@@mefia97 He wasn't her friend. He didn't trust her or give her the benefit of the doubt. She made a mistake so she apologized. But, she also made clear another mistake was taking Shy for a friend.
@@raymeester7883 Good point but he was a black gay man in the 50s, that mistake could damage his carrer. If it was 2023 it will be another story. I see it like they used to support each other and end up failing each other.
@@mefia97 She was a jewish woman in the 50s doing stand-up comedy. The same kind of comedy that saw people like Lenny Bruce get arrested for. She assumed they both knew each others struggle. She realized they didn't.
He didn't do her wrong though. She quite literally could have put his life at risk when she used his personal life as material. She absolutely deserved to be fired
Shy did not do midge wrong. She utterly fucked up his life and put him in danger. Getting fired and publicly to make it seem like bad blood was to keep people from taking what she said seriously and then he had to marry a woman to make sure to keep safe. She changed his entire life with her jokes and not in a good way.
Honestly Midge had no choice to say no this time if he broke up the band and Reggie who he knew for years and already hurt Midge once he could have hurt her again. Shy is not a bad person but his career means more to him and other people are actually controlling his life and his career. This scene was closure for both them.
See the he hurt her once thing could make you understand his pov. She implied his biggest secret once. She could do it again. A person he trusted talked about his biggest secret. The rest of the band could follow. Also we are not just talking about his career. Was everyone in this comment section asleep when he got beaten because he is gay. This was the 60s. He is a gay black man. Connect the dots
Actually it’s his life that’s important to him if he got outed at that point he would be killed. He had to do major damage control because of midge. His wedding and firing were all a result of midges set at the Apollo.
Midge wasn't going to talk about Shy until she was told to by the Apollo stage manager. Had she not done that, this would've been different. She wasn't going out there trying to do a hit job, he was her boss essentially. And yes, he's in a sham marriage but honestly, the longer he stayed single, the more rumors would swirl. He'd have to eventually, given the time period.
From my very comfortable possition here, I can say that the smart thing for Shy to have done was keep her close. I mean if she says all that as a friend, what might she do as an enemy. Thing is he's not in my very comfortable seat 60 years on, and I can not judge him for not wanting someone that dangerous close to him. He is vulnerable. Midge poked at his vulnerabliity and made it worse. She doesn't have to actually out him to ruin him, just suggestions could do that. Everything he and Regie built relies in image. To be honest I was kinda annoyed the writers took his situation to the extreme just to give Midge the smallest tinyest prickle of remorse. It seems like everytime something goes wrong for her she feels hard done by, and blames other people for picking on her, instead of seing them as the consequences of her actions.
"To be honest I was kinda annoyed the writers took his situation to the extreme just to give Midge the smallest tinyest prickle of remorse" Seriously? Tinyest prickle of remorse? Midge: "I fucked up, like I've never fucked up anything....in a life not without it's fuckups." Not tiny. Inadequate? Agreed. But nothing could be adequate.
@@josephewing80 "I fucked up, like I've never fucked up anything....in a life not without it's fuckups" on its own that's good. Combined with the spiel about how he was never her friend and she "learned her lesson" (lesson that he's a bad friend, not that she shouldn't fucking out people) it is empty.
The damaged she did was slightly soften by doing a show in Harlem. Reggie did tell her to just talk anout Shy, but he didn't tell her that he also knew. I think she should have repaired the relationship. He should have let her on the plane, im not sure the Reggie could have vouched for her but he should have own up that it was his idea to start with. I loved the friendship between Shy and Midge; wish it could have gone on.
He couldn’t let her on the plane. He had to fire her and make it look like a spat in the press to keep the jokes from being taken seriously. That was damage control just like his sudden engagement. Reggie didn’t tell her to make gay jokes he told her to make jokes about him having star fits on the road and other things but he in no way implied to make gay jokes about a black man in the 60’s.
Midge is the main character. Of course, everyone is going to want to root for her. However, she nearly destroyed Shys' entire rep and career. He was right to fire her. He just handled it wrong.
Although what Miriam did on stage was possibly a great danger to Shy’s career, being black artist in USA was hard enough for him and being gay did not make it any easier but at least he could’ve let Miriam explain it by making her and Suzy got on plane. But instead, he did her dirty by leaving her like that, after every thing they’ve been through, after every secrets he told her, after every help she di for him. He was being too controlled by his manager and fame. By the end of the day, he was the one who lost, he was the one who is left alone and lead himself to unhappy life.
Letting her on the plane would have done what exactly she still would have been fired and I can’t imagine after going through a betrayal like that having the emotional capacity to want to face that person after it just happened. There’s no explanation midge could have said to rectify what she had done. Him leaving her in the tarmac is nothing compared to what she did and it had to be done to do damage control.
You’re absolutely right. Real friends give each other a chance to explain, don’t just cut each other off like that - and in the end, he cut off everyone who cared, which is perhaps a tragedy for all us to learn from about what it meant to be a mega successful black, gay man in that era. Still, within the private relationship between two adults, you have the choice to communicate like an adult or the choice to behave immaturely, and he took the immature route, forcing her apology to have to come a year late, and by that time, the friendship was truly broken, which she had the maturity to recognize. I say this as a gay person - when you come out, everyone around you is forced to come out with you. There’s a learning curve. They don’t always get it right at first. Not only was Midge provoked to make anecdotes about Shy’s life on stage right before curtain, but no one handed her a pamphlet on how to handle the situation of a closeted gay friend (in 1961!) perfectly. Everyone deserves to be met where they are and given space to be human and fallible - even straight white people. There is no special onus on them or anyone else to know more or do better just because of privilege. To say so falls short of recognizing the basic human qualities that are common to all of us. It amazes me that this has to be explained, but it’s 2023, and here we are.
Shy was fully in the right to fire her. The only thing I would’ve done was fire her in person, not on the tarmac. That was cold. He could’ve at least said something awful about her to her face. Miriam wasn’t self aware at all. Why didn’t she leave the door open for Shy?? To leave him with more pain?? Shameful. That was a difficult scene to watch. Shy was left with no one. It made me want to hug him at the end.
You would think that as this scene was progressing both of them would see the light in the act of forgiveness. Midge however just had to have that final 15 seconds to say "NO". That was maybe the harshest moment of the season because inlike the scene with Lenny at the end, both people in this relationship ended the conversation even more embittered than when the scene began. Shys life is ruined, and Midge Burned a genuine bridge to the ground and gained no benefit from it at all.
CGI perhaps, either the camera was edited out of the shot or the actor's reflections were edited in. They may have also disguised the camera behind an object, the painting or the flowers on the table.
I think the reason Midge is angry is not for being fired, but because Shy didnt fire her himself and didn't give her time to apologize, even after his tour. She was wrong for what she did (even if not on purpose), but I think she would have appreciated it more if he was straightforward with her and not just cut off all ties with her and leave her waiting at the airport. He was right, his method was wrong.
After Shy got Midge fired, I was hoping she would get a chance to confront him in a future episode. I blame Susie on that one for not getting Midge's contract signed before things blew up but I consider Shy to be the bad guy here. He let an innocent joke convince him to fire someone who had been a genuine friend to him. I know plenty of people in these comments are saying the joke could have ended Shy's career or even life but consider that Shy had a reputation as a "ladies man" and I doubt anyone would have read that deep into a silly joke about ruby slippers. Firing Midge was a severe overreaction. I do think the writers took things a bit far in remaking Shy's life by replacing his band and manager/brother. The show basically sets up Shy to be miserable living a lie and being heavily "managed" for the rest of his life. Shy's career is now being run by men who would readily bribe anybody who knew Shy's secret and do not consider Shy's happiness to be relevant. Midge has never been shown to be the kindest of souls so it's appropriate that she didn't want anything to do with Shy in the future. Perhaps they could have had an episode in season 5 where Midge and Shy buried the hatchet years later.
The whole point of the series is that Midge isn't a 100% good person. She's better than a lot of people, considering the time she grew up in but, she's still very petty and holds a grudge, she's also very ignorant in certain situations and while Shy put a momentary halt on her career, she nearly destroyed his and basically confined him to a life of solitude away from his band and friends. She of course found out and felt bad about it but, it was too late. Her Shy Baldwin act would've been pretty good in the 90s/early 2000s but, I guess her sense of humour was ahead of its time, as shown by that ventriloquist comedian that had a very modern act, involving his puppet dying and the audience didn't get it, meanwhile Midge and Susie were dying of laughter.
It was not because of Midge that Shy is in this position … he likely got caught out AGAIN and management forced him into the marriage situation to keep him in check - and clearly did not feel Reggie was able to handle it anymore. Midge was not right but I’m not saying this is all her fault
“He likely got caught out” well according to the show it seemed that midges jokes is what had this ripple effect on shys life. It’s more likely that the management was doing damage control after what midge says so yeah this is 100% her fault
@@swordchild0013 you just mentioned the management in your original comment, the im pretty sure we’re talking about the same one lol. I know at the time midge was fired shy had Reggie (his friend) as his manager but I’m pretty sure shy had other people than Reggie (his friend) that we’re helping his career like his label that he’s signed too lol. Reggie was just his manger but the label is his management. the ones that call the shots, The ones that probably right after this scene wanted to pay midge hush money, the ones that fired his crew and Reggie the ones that forced him into a fake marriage because of what midge said. That’s what I was trying to say in my original comment?
She could have got him killed, that self serving “apology”was all about her. Where’s the acknowledgment that she put him in danger? That he was forced to marry a woman because of what she did? How selfish was she ? She knew nothing of what it means to be a gay black man in that era. And WHAT LESSON did she learn exactly? She had the nerve to BLAME HIM. It was VERY generous of him to try and repair a friendship after she divulged privileged information in public without consent, talk about white privilege.
Ig he got fired or "replaced" by Lou and his team. It was pretty clear that a white person was needed to navigate at that time and those jokes ig crossed the line and could have been real bad if they made it to the press. Reggie had Lou as kind of a subordinate to him but after the show he may have been taken over by Lou and his team. Oh it was also said that he got a good house in some weird neighbourhood which wasn't even his choice or preference.
I mean they gotta do what they gotta do. But yeah, the last lines from Midge sounds like coming from her ego. Both of them should've given each other a chance to reconnect but iy's also understandable that things wouldn't be the same again. Gotta move on.
Edit: To that one guy in the replies, I see your point and nah I ain't old, I was just stuck in an abusive household at the time but I'm good now :p anyways I think people are missing the fact about how both Midge and Shy fucked up. Shy humiliated her and expected for her to be able to trust him again because Midge almost outed him, which could've killed him. Nobodies a jackass. They're both just good people in the 60s who royally fucked up due to the fact that they are in the 60's. And its worst seeing how Shy's now alone from what I remember idk its been a minute since I finished this show. If it weren't for their careers or if this were the modern day then they probably would've been great friends. Womp womp.
He didn’t have a choice. He had to fire her to make it seem she made the jokes out of personal spite. It was part of the damage control just like his marriage. Question how old are you? Did you similar situation also happen in the 60’s?
Guys im korean so idk about american's queer history at all. So somebody pls explain about judy's shoes? Cause in my opinion i rly don't think that could be an outing anyway if u guys think it could be then midge, girl u should be shut ur mouth and just apology
Everyone is making midge the villain who ruined his life and saying that everyone else didn't understand for saying otherwise, the funny thing is most of the comments are like this so who's saying otherwise, well I'll tell you who it's me , midge just accelerated what happened to him but even without her it was gonna happen eventually and it was accidentall not on purpose plus she's literally apologizing in this scene yet people say she's making it all about her , he's in a tough position i get it i reaaaaally do but he chose to leave his crew and marry, his choices were limited yes but he still chose and the reason his choices were limited isn't midge as i said she just accelerated shit it was always gonna be this way , sucks for him but it's not really her fault, not saying it's his either but he could've at least like she said talked to her give her a chance to at least apologize as a friend but no he chose block her off and then left his other friends to keep his career i don't want to judge him for that last part but it wasn't midge who forced him to choose it was the world it was always gonna be this way
I don’t really understand this comment cause whether or not midge ruined his life or just accelerated what was to come the betrayal is what sucks the most, the way she just easily betrayed shys and act as if she was the victim is why everyone is criticizing her not just making her out to be the villain for no reason. Just because you think it was bound to happen anyway does not make what she did that night okay. Even in this scene where she’s apologizing she’s still making it about herself and how SHE FEELS so bad about messing up but there are moments where she’s still justifying which is not how you apologize. midge shares most of the blame if not all for what happened to her and for why their friendship ended not shy. Her actions is what forced his management to do damage control to fire midge publicly so what she said that night would be invalidated, to get rid of his manager and crew the people who knew about his secret and to get him in a fake marriage. Yes he chose to do that but it was midges actions that led to the that choice where he had to choose between his career and the people he loved. Midge did absolutely wrong and just to say that it would have happened anyway so midge isn’t really to blame is taking off all the responsibility of midge which is not fair.
Midge had the right not to accept his olive branch. He hurt her deeply. Yes, her performance was reckless, but to abandon her on the tarmac? Really? They couldn't have let her go in a more civilized way?
Well you gotta think he also had to think about his safety in that time being gay was a death sentence not just him losing a career never having a full life a happy one at least
And to think that they already knew she was going to be replaced but waited until she got to the tarmac to dump her? That was just callous and uncalled for. I am not a big fan of how she goes off sometimes and talks about people dear to her, but she considered herself his friend and she thought he saw her in the same light. But he treated her like garbage. Yes, she had every right not to accept his olive branch.
Ugh can't stand him..I never trusted him from the start, something about him was off and his manger was an a$$hole from the get go. Miriam shouldn't have put all her eggs in one basket.Glad she learned in the end tho.
Show business is and ugly business and you have NO friends in show business. Shy was wrong, Midge messed up mistakenly. Glad to see Reggie gone, he was not a real friend to Shy only a payroll receiver.
She should have left the door open to Shy after what she did to him. Instead, "I thought we were friends. I'm not falling for that again." He thought you were friends too, darling, and you outed him and put his career and I dare say life in danger. I still love you, Midge, but your apology was half-hearted.
Her cutting him off wasn't done out of spite. Shy made his decision in how he was going to live his life, and that was in fully dedicating himself to a farce. That was why he got rid of his entourage, because they knew his real self, a real self he didn't want to be reminded of. And unlike Midge, those friends were fiercely protective of his secret. But that didn't matter, because he was made to feel such shame by society at large that he couldn't be reminded of that truth. And Midge knew Shy's real self. Rekindling their friendship would have just hurt both of them.
@Veril Bijou Did he dump them, though, or was he forced to by his label? The labels and studios back in the day had a large amount of control over their stars' images back in the day. Rock Hudson married his manager's secretary when a magazine threatened to out him. Rita Hayworth was Latino, and the studios - in order to make her a star and maintain her stardom - forced her to change her entire look and dye her hair in order to pass as white. And the celebrities went along if they wanted to maintain any livelihood at all or face being blackballed by the industry. Shy could very well have been forced to dump all the people who knew he was gay just to maintain that image of ladies man crooner in order to ensure that no rumours could ever be verified.
Honestly, I don't think Midge's "not falling for that again" is over her firing necessarily (because she did fuck up), but more about the way he clearly is willing to throw away all the people in his life who appeared to be like family to protect his career. We can all understand that Shy probably felt he had no choice in all that-- due to his legal contracts, due to the inherent dangers of outing in the 60s, ect-- but a position being understandable doesn't make it tenable. The record label could ask him to throw Midge away as a friend at literally any moment due to her being a talking risk, and he would do it, and that would hurt her. The fact that he privately wishes it could be any other way doesn't remove the potential for future hurt. I actually really find it interesting how this scene frames the difficulty of ally-ship across different struggles. Midge faces struggle as a comic due to her gender, Shy faces struggles as a singer due to the colour of his skin and his sexuality, and the two of them could truly be great friends if they both weren't so willing to put their careers ahead of everything. But the both of them had to fight and claw their way into show biz due to who they were born as, and two disenfranchised people in the same business should be able to empathize and understand each other and make great friends, but they have to keep fighting for their career and are willing to do it at the expense of the other and that puts them in opposition rather than on the same side. Really, isn't that the age-old struggle of disenfranchisement? That the system is almost designed to keep people disenfranchised is to keep them fighting other disenfranchised people for the few spots they can take rather than banding together against those who actually benefit from keeping others down.
@@Kaitou-ug5yi No "almost" about it. It is designed that way.
The thing is, firing Midge was the right thing to do, but if they were friends, she should have been called before they were scheduled to leave. However, they waited until she was on the tarmac to break the news. Firing is a professional move, but what they did was intentionally humiliate her. That's not an act of a friend, which is why she closed the door to any future friendship with him.
I do wish they would make up because they were great friends, but I understand Midge's reasoning.
Midge has a real problem with not understanding boundaries. Her joking about her own life is fine, but what she did to Shy (which could’ve gotten him killed if you’re keeping score at home) showed she learned nothing from how much she hurt her friend by telling the whole wedding about her pregnancy. You have to be careful about using friends for content if you truly value those friendships. Them not being friends is very much on her.
Yes! You see this all the time in the show, an reoccurring theme it made sense why Joel didn’t want to marry her because no one would want their personal stuff as material. It’s hurtful and midge just has no understanding of that lol
@@jojoc8229 I think it’s a little more complicated with Joel because it’s her life too. But after that whole mess with the actress and her friend, you’d think she’d learn that telling other people’s secrets can hurt them or in Shy’s case get them hurt.
First, Joel was already married to her. He didn't want to stay married to her. Second, for the love of god, why did you feel the need to end your post with lol. Nothing you said or thought is lol.
@@gheller2261 okay yeah Joel was already married to her and didn’t want to stay married to her that’s what I meant do you want a cookie for being specific 🤔 also I used lol at the end of this post because I wanted to. I don’t feel the NEED to do it and it was used right even if what I said wasn’t humorous I can use it however I like, the real question is why does that bother you so much
We forget she was nervous before her set AND encouraged to go out there and discuss anecdotes about his life off the cuff.
I think it's such a cool detail how Midge and Shy have their first interaction in a bathroom and have their (probably) last interaction in another bathroom.
This comment section is wrong in so many ways, y’all completely missed the point of what happened with shy. This was one of the moments that truly showed just how privileged and in over her head midge can sometimes act. Shy is a black gay man in the 60’s people get lynched just for being black not to mention being gay?!? Her words had an impact on this man’s life and she was so focused on being funny she forgot to check herself. She even realizes it when you see how the corporate side of the business completely isolated him and forced him to give up his friends and identity in order to keep his livelihood. Where do you get off feeling sympathy for midge in this situation much less being mad at shy of all people?
So well said, I was also surprised at some the comments I am seeing here. Midge was the one in the wrong.
@@grayaansi9812 your correct
Honestly, I think you can feel sympathy for both without negating judgement for either.
@@EyeGlassTrainofMind I feel like that’s a cop out. it’s not judgement to say midge did something bad. That doesn’t mean she’s a bad character and we still feel sympathy for her losing an opportunity but the show makes it clear that her loss is a consequence of her actions. Whereas shy and the consequences that he faced were not of his own actions. Midge hurt him and her actions impacted his life and that of his friends/family. As far as I’m concerned we can’t judge both of them, all shy did was fire her and yes the way he did it embarrassed her but honestly, what did she expect? Even if he wasn’t gay, at that time any performer ( straight or otherwise) and their management would’ve taken action against her for the implication just because of what a threat it was to you to even be thought of as gay. she would’ve been blackballed and probably legal action against her. She was just fired, and she’s recovering from it. The fact that midge was even caught by surprise when they fired her, goes to show something that the show has consistently portrayed( with Sophie Lennon and her friends wedding) that in a lot of ways midge is sheltered and thus privileged, she doesn’t think of consequences a lot of times and it never even occurred to her that she said something wrong until she got fired.
Midge made a misguided decision, but not one made out of malice. Shy didn’t even have the steel to fire her face to face. He chose to embarrass and shame her on that tarmac. I’m not saying he’s wrong to defend his title and safety (especially during these times), but it showed that even during a serious moment he was still a diva and a child.
The two things I wanted from s4 were for Midge to apologize to Shy and for someone to finally get through to her that she was being dumb about refusing to do opening acts. So glad we got both.
Yeah, but by refusing Shy's friendship she once again demonstrated her selfishness. Shy is plainly a lonely man who is lost. I get it, Midge is protecting herself, but sometimes we need to sacrifice our own safety and comfort for other people. Shy needed her friendship and once again she let him down.
@@gheller2261After throwing her away without talking or warning her
@@fvdcalmahWho warns an employee that they are going to be fired? And he was supposed to talk to her after she effectively outed him? A black man in 1960? Come now. She was 100% in the wrong. Had this been written any other way it would have been bad writing.
@@gheller2261 oh hard agree. I hate that she didn't accept his offer of friendship, I almost cried when she saw him outside at the end and didn't go over to him and take it back. He put all the hurt she caused him aside to reach out because he needed someone and her throwing it back in his face was so unbelievably cruel I cannot fathom it. But I really thought until this scene that they were never going to have her admit that she was wrong for making those jokes so I am at least glad that she finally acknowledged her wrongdoing.
The sad reality to live your dream but couldn’t live your truth I cry for Shy and the others that had to live that lie for their entire lives.
What broke my heart even more is that shy lost all his team to! Including Reggie His best friend ! Now he's really all alone
She should have started the whole encounter with a sincere apology. Not make it all about her and what she needed from the Apollo audience.
Yep. You start with the apology and then maybe explain, even though the apology should be enough. Instead, she prefaced the apology with a story meant to convey "you can understand why I did what I did."
So you're saying she should have made it all about her?
@@gheller2261 she explained that she was selfigh and looking for a laugh and that she used him to get her high. That was part of her apologizing. She said, she could have found something else to laugh about but he was an easy target and she regrets doing that. That wasn't a "prefaced" apology, it was honesty
Yea she's a fucked up person that makes it more entertaining to watch. Of course midge is gonna make it about herself look at literally her entire life she makes everything about her its why she fucks up her relationship with her kids in the future
As cute and clever and fun as this show can be, it sometimes gives us really touching, beautifully written scenes with stellar acting, like this one.
Wow i have no idea how they got those mirror shots without you clearly seeing the camera. Neat little cinematography trick
Film it with green screens in the mirror. Shoot it twice with the 2nd from the other side with the “bathroom” in the background. Sync them up. It’s only a few frames where it’s head on…just a guess 🤷🏾♂️
I cried with Midge when Reggie wouldn't let her and Susie on that plane. Great scene! I wish the writers would allow Reggie and Susie to cross paths again in Season 5!
🙄🙄🙄 did she really just gaslight him ?? GIIIRRRRLLLL if he would've been outed he could've been KILLED... BLACKLISTED... JAILED
She did. Very revealing about her.
"If he would've been outed" He wasn't tho. She didn't really out him. Plus Shy got his" revenge" (I'm not saying that he wanted to).
He nearly ended her career and humiliated her in a similar way. She was to going but her apartment and get back her life.
She couldn't do that anymore.
People need to be able to see both of the viewpoints and sympathise with the both of them.
This scene is heartbreaking
“Congratulations, I hope you’re going to be very happy Dwayne” that’s fucking cruel
Very gaslighty. She knows he’s not going to be happy.
This comment section did really not understand the scene at all.
Midge ruined his life. And even in this scene she makes it all about herself never acknowledging that she is the reason for all of this.
She didn't ruin his life. What she said didn't affect his career, only the people who knew understood the weight of her jokes.
@@cherryblack420 it may have not affected his career but it ruined his livelihood. He was forced by his management team to separate from Reggie and his band, people he considered his family, and have a loveless marriage for the sake of his career. The moment Midge slipped was the moment he lost what little freedom he had left.
@@what.the.fwish. But it's a bit mean to blame it on Midge. The plan was ALWAYS to separate from reggie and his band, the people he conidered his family, and to have a loveless marriage for the sake of his career.
It's like...imagine theres a hidden bomb that's going to explode at 12:00. A little kid accidentally trips over it at 11:50 and it explodes immediatelly. Is the explosion his fault? I don't think so, since the plan was for it to explode regardless.
Midge DID accelerate his isolation. Which is why she apologizes in this scene - and for hurting him. But likewise, Shy was also willing to dump his band + reggie "the people he considered his family" for his career. Midge hurts her family accidentally, Shy does it on purpose. This is why she refuses his invitation to continue being friends.
@@tinytanaka8779 exactly, thank you
I really don't think she was singlehandedly responsible for him being separated from his band and Reggie. I think that was already in the works.
Midge not letting him in is f*cked up. She didn’t just make a bad call. She could have put his life in danger and she expects him to just let her go with him? He could have been killed.
The fact that he even wants to see her again shows a forgiveness in him that she doesn’t deserve.
I love Midge as a character, but this wasn’t right and I can’t tell if the show is trying to say she is or not. It’s not a mid “both sides wrong” either.
Yes, both sides were wrong. This isn't black and white. I'm going to copypaste another comment I made:
"Midge didn't out him as gay, she made a couple of jokes implying he was a bit effeminate. She would probably have made those exact jokes even if she hadn't known; because they weren't about being gay, they were based on the glitz and glamour of his life. She didn’t see the jokes as being tied to sexuality at all. And likely neither would the audience have.
And he didn't just fire her, he waited until she was on the tarmac with her luggage so he could publicly humiliate her. He did wrong by her."
@@funkyfranx implying that he is effeminate is the same as implying he is gay. It’s the 60s. And she knew he was gay. And she also knew that he got beaten up because of it. And she still didn’t see anything wrong with her little judy garland joke. Which could have gotten people to question his sexuality. So you don’t see how this joke this potential rumor is incredibly dangerous for him? Especially since it had some truth to it. He was terrified of this coming out for a reason again midge knew of his sexuality because he got beaten up!
Anyone would have fired her. Oh so he humiliated her too. Oh no. She did the same + she endangered his life. She should be glad he only humiliated her.
@@funkyfranx “She paints a deeply feminine portrait of her so-called friend for laughs. Midge says she met Shy in a ladies' bathroom and he was the prettier one. She jokes that Arthur Miller is going to try to date Shy. One line, “He pretty much has a guy for everything else,” could be taken especially scandalously. As Reggie points out when he fires Midge, a comment about Shy’s “Judy Garland shoes” hit too close to home for the performer.
All together, Midge performed a set loaded with stereotypic comments one would use to describe a man as queer in the 1960s without saying it. That is why Shy asks Reggie to fire Midge.
No matter what, Midge's comments were dangerous for a Black man in the violently homophobic '60s. But the stand-up's actions are particularly egregious considering her understanding of Shy. Shy is gay. It’s not a rumor or an offensive “joke” - Midge knows, for a fact, that Shy is a gay man. Season 3, episode 6, “Kind of Bleu” confirms as much, as Midge finds Shy battered in the hull of his Miami boat. He explains that the person who assaulted him was a would-be lover he picked up at a bar (it’s suggested he’s talking about a gay bar). The man then turned violent, beating Shy's face and possibly cracking his ribs.
Shy is terrified that his secret will get out. He cries over the idea of Reggie learning this horror happened “again” and explains to Midge all the girls he is seen with are for the photos. “You can’t tell [Reggie] you found me like this. You can’t tell anyone,” he begs. Midge agrees.”
People forget that jokes can go too far
Even tho maisel didn’t mean too (and I guess the other dude DID technically tell her to do it)
It’s still pretty messed up
This is in the 60s there was HEAVY restrictions and HEAVY discrimination back then
If shy was outed as gay it would utterly DESTROY him
It’s all pretty messed up
The other dude did not tell her to out him come on! 🙄
They were all on tour for months and she couldn't find anything else to tell about him than his biggest most life destroying secret?! The one that he told her in private after a physical altercation and that she promised to never tell?!
Midge is a selfish gaslighting narcissist for this. Everything has to be about her, even an apology to him.
This man is standing in the bathroom having lost everything dear to him, and she has the nerve to berate him about how bad she feels for wanting to get meaningless laughter's from an audience at all cost!
It is an understatement to say that this is my favorite show of all time and also an understanding to say that I'm looking forward to season 5 the final season coming next month and an even bigger understatement to say I'm going to miss the show once it's over but thank goodness with streaming services. I can watch it over and over again if my sad silly heart desires
LeRoy’s acting at the very end is devastating
maisel is entirely in the wrong. He accepts her apology and she spit in his face.
How so?
@@DigiDestined558 By rejecting the olive branch and saying it is because she learned that he is not a real friend. She didn't deserve his forgiveness one bit.
A beautiful scene, well-written and acted.
I think some of you are overstating the potential effect of Midge's joke. Shy being outed would have absolutely ended his career, and yes, even potentially put his life in danger. But the relationship of society with homosexuality was extremely complex at the time. It was all about denial. Not just denial about individuals, but denial that it existed at all. There were many gay people then who only barely concealed their proclivities, and yet enjoyed mainstream success by fully embracing that denial.
When Midge made her jokes, everyone knew what she was joking about. A huge crowd of people who all knew what he was. Yet you ask any single one of them, and they'll deny any knowledge whatsoever. After all, admitting they were a fan of someone who did such things would implicate them in the "immorality." But her jokes didn't "out" him. It dwelt in that gray area where everyone knows but no one says it. I dare say if you had no suspicions about Shy being gay, you wouldn't get the jokes at all.
So I don't think it was the joke that bothered Shy. I think it was the crowd's reaction that bothered him. He probably thought he was hiding it pretty well, so everyone in his town knowing what he was reminded him that he wasn't as deep in the closet as he thought. That's why we see in the aftermath Shy ditch his manager, his entourage, and getting married to a woman. He was retreating deeper into the closet by cutting off anyone who knew who he really was. Which is why Midge was rejecting his friendship, because she knew it would only end badly for the both of them.
Did you miss the episode where shy got beat to shit for being gay?
Also 1960 didn’t ignore gay people it was a time society still killed gay people. Especially black gay people.
Your thinking 90’s not 60’s
I understand what you’re saying but even if midges jokes didn’t exactly out him the suggestion of it alone was highly dangerous. even if the people in the audience would never admit it the press could have ran with it and absolutely damaged Shy. Because for a celebrity like shy it’s about his image and how people see him, in the show he’s supposed to be somewhat of a ladies man (even though we know and many people around him know that’s not true,)midges joke could have had a disastrous damage on his image ruining his career and thats why they had to do damage control by firing midge to make it seem like what she said was just out of bad blood and getting him married and cutting off anyone who knew about his secret. I think you are right that he was bothered by the crowd’s reaction but I think the biggest part of it was the betrayal, midge rejecting his friendship and saying I’m not falling for that again is ironic when she was the one that ruined the friendship not him, she was the one that took private information and used it for laughs even if she didn’t mean it or thought it was okay she still did it and that betrayal probably hurt shy more than anything else.
I would also like to add that this is the 1960s and Shy is a black man in the music industry. He most likely did not have any say, and whether Reggie got fired or not or whether he should keep his band. Most likely it was all constructed by his management teams, which usually with those contracts he would’ve had very little sa.y in. So not only did Mrs. jokes put him in danger due to the era, but she also gave the studio the opportunity to isolate him from everyone who genuinely cares about him in by rejecting her friendship in the last scene she condemned him to a very lonely life.
Thank you for this psychologically astute character and plot analysis, as opposed to the reactionary, reductive junk psychology of most of the comments here that prioritize one character’s humanity over another’s.
Shy cried and begged her to keep it a secret. Yes, it was the jokes that upset him.
I literally kept yelling at my tv “Midge, Stop it!” “You’re exposing him!”
Midge apologized, Shy forgave her but she didn't forgive him. It's on her now.
She forgave him.
But, she has learnt they were never friends.
@@hilaryunachukwu9736 yes they were never friends because of her selfish actions! Guess that's show biz for ya 😌
@@12wer3wer9 She was also upset that his entire band was dumped as well. They did nothing wrong.
@@MsAliciaRL guess why the band was dumped? Because of her actions that made it clear for the management that things were out of control and that people knew that he was gay, which was illegal and had major consequences in that time period. So they stepped in majorly and fired the band! 🙄
Midge always does this. She fucks over the people close to her and then she has the nerve to be upset about the consequences. Remember when she ruined her friends wedding back in season 2. Or when she couldn't accept that her family and partner were upset about her making her whole comedy based on them and their issues.
@@12wer3wer9 Literally! I can't believe that people are acting that 1) she cares enough about the band that her rejecting forgiveness was not for her but for them, and 2) IT'S HER FAULT THEY'RE GONE. More over, IT IS HER FAULT HE'S GETTING MARRIED LIKE THIS.
Where does Midge get off trying to act like she's the one that was wronged in this whole situation. Man, this woman has learned NOTHING.
💯💯💯💯💯
she literally apologized in this scene and said she shouldn't have said what she said and should have realized the consequences of her words
@@pathwaytobeingablacksmith9808 That entire apology was about her. Too many people think that when they fuck up, they should be able to apologize whenever they want. And then that final "I learned my lesson" rebuke. She "literally" apologized, but it was wrapped up in narcissism as per usual for this character.
@@goodandsilentThis was actually on brand in Midge’s character. She doesn’t understand things like this even in previous Seasons. She even got mad at Susie for accepting Sophie Lennon as a client.
@@goodandsilent Exactly. With the way she did it, she basically said "I'm sorry you are a fake friend".
Midge was in the wrong here. The potential consequences of her set, which range from damaging his career to putting his life in danger, are greater than just damaging her career. Which is what he did-in retaliation and self-protection, after she already transgressed. Not to mention that she was biting the hand feeding her career. I don’t think he was wrong for firing her for that, which is essentially what happened.
Maybe I don’t get it, but I don’t think comedians should get a pass for the selfishness they show-publicly holding their friends and family up for humiliation and acting like they have the right to do so. I love Midge, but that’s never sat right with me with this show, and I guess comedy in general.
I hope shy returns next season
“I have learned my lesson.”
By rejecting his forgiveness, no. You have not learned your lesson.
Midge is such a jackass this season.
If all that stuff she said was a mistake, how was she going to stop herself from doing it again? She has ZERO impulse control, and is very vague on accountabliity. Litterally, she get's all the businesses in her area to give her more credit so she can get their services without actually knowing how or when she's going to pay them.
In the end, she got her revenge. It wasn't about her winning...but in the end, he's trapped, he lost, living a false life and lost everyone he got along with. Everyone that tolerated him, gone. He's alone.
And in three years time, he'll sadly be mostly irrelevant. The British Invasion is only a few years away.
Revenge? Are you kidding the victim was Shy and midge is the traitor who ruin his life after he went out of his way to try and help lunch her career. She had nothing to be vengeful for.
@Traci M How did she ruin his life? She didn't do anything except call him feminine and a diva. He was still famous and gained more publicity due to his Marriage and his upcoming movie. And yeah, he was a dick, he left her on the tarmac without even speaking to her after she helped him.
@@ReneAensland this was the 60’s not the 90’s. Feminine for a man just equaled gay.
Hence the scene where Susie didn’t know what they were talking about until the “ Judy Garland shoes” comment then instantly new they were talking about him being gay.
He helped her long before she help him on that boat and she ruined that with the double cross on stage.
Plus the brutal firing was part of damage control to discredit midge.
Also he isn’t her only victim.
She ruin her coworkers wedding, got her dad fired from bell labs and cost her mom a major client.
@@tracim3080 Are we watching the same show?! No one suspected Shy Baldwin of being gay. Remember Liberaci? He was feminine and still considered a mild sex symbol. And her dad QUIT Bell Labs, are you sure we're watching the same show? Do you not remember how her dad was in a mental spiral and quit Bell Labs by his own volition. And the wedding was hilarious, I'll give you that one.
I really like Shy, Midge should have never said what she said, he didnt deserve that.
He did.
@@hilaryunachukwu9736 How?
@@mefia97
He wasn't her friend.
He didn't trust her or give her the benefit of the doubt.
She made a mistake so she apologized.
But, she also made clear another mistake was taking Shy for a friend.
@@raymeester7883 Good point but he was a black gay man in the 50s, that mistake could damage his carrer. If it was 2023 it will be another story. I see it like they used to support each other and end up failing each other.
@@mefia97
She was a jewish woman in the 50s doing stand-up comedy. The same kind of comedy that saw people like Lenny Bruce get arrested for.
She assumed they both knew each others struggle.
She realized they didn't.
one of the saddest moments of the show. I know Shy did Midge wrong, but the fact that he didn't have much options makes this scene even sad :(
He didn't do her wrong though. She quite literally could have put his life at risk when she used his personal life as material. She absolutely deserved to be fired
@@TJRhea real
@@TJRhea Yes, it makes me angry that she didn't realize she was wrong. She has no reason to justify her behavior.
Shy did not do midge wrong. She utterly fucked up his life and put him in danger. Getting fired and publicly to make it seem like bad blood was to keep people from taking what she said seriously and then he had to marry a woman to make sure to keep safe. She changed his entire life with her jokes and not in a good way.
@@TJRhea It wasn't the firing that was wrong. They humiliated Midge by having her travel to the tarmac only to leave her there.
Honestly Midge had no choice to say no this time if he broke up the band and Reggie who he knew for years and already hurt Midge once he could have hurt her again. Shy is not a bad person but his career means more to him and other people are actually controlling his life and his career. This scene was closure for both them.
See the he hurt her once thing could make you understand his pov. She implied his biggest secret once. She could do it again. A person he trusted talked about his biggest secret. The rest of the band could follow. Also we are not just talking about his career. Was everyone in this comment section asleep when he got beaten because he is gay. This was the 60s. He is a gay black man. Connect the dots
Actually it’s his life that’s important to him if he got outed at that point he would be killed.
He had to do major damage control because of midge. His wedding and firing were all a result of midges set at the Apollo.
Midge was deeply disappointing in this scene. Made me feel wrong to ever root for her.
Midge wasn't going to talk about Shy until she was told to by the Apollo stage manager. Had she not done that, this would've been different. She wasn't going out there trying to do a hit job, he was her boss essentially.
And yes, he's in a sham marriage but honestly, the longer he stayed single, the more rumors would swirl. He'd have to eventually, given the time period.
The apology was great but I wish they could have thrown something in about realizing just how much danger she put him in. Sweet scene though
From my very comfortable possition here, I can say that the smart thing for Shy to have done was keep her close. I mean if she says all that as a friend, what might she do as an enemy. Thing is he's not in my very comfortable seat 60 years on, and I can not judge him for not wanting someone that dangerous close to him. He is vulnerable. Midge poked at his vulnerabliity and made it worse. She doesn't have to actually out him to ruin him, just suggestions could do that. Everything he and Regie built relies in image. To be honest I was kinda annoyed the writers took his situation to the extreme just to give Midge the smallest tinyest prickle of remorse. It seems like everytime something goes wrong for her she feels hard done by, and blames other people for picking on her, instead of seing them as the consequences of her actions.
"To be honest I was kinda annoyed the writers took his situation to the extreme just to give Midge the smallest tinyest prickle of remorse"
Seriously? Tinyest prickle of remorse?
Midge: "I fucked up, like I've never fucked up anything....in a life not without it's fuckups."
Not tiny.
Inadequate? Agreed. But nothing could be adequate.
@@josephewing80 "I fucked up, like I've never fucked up anything....in a life not without it's fuckups" on its own that's good. Combined with the spiel about how he was never her friend and she "learned her lesson" (lesson that he's a bad friend, not that she shouldn't fucking out people) it is empty.
¿Where is the camera in this scene?
I know! The center mirror is likely a matte, but it's a beautifully-done stunt. Oh! And: it was a beautifully acted scene.
The damaged she did was slightly soften by doing a show in Harlem. Reggie did tell her to just talk anout Shy, but he didn't tell her that he also knew. I think she should have repaired the relationship. He should have let her on the plane, im not sure the Reggie could have vouched for her but he should have own up that it was his idea to start with.
I loved the friendship between Shy and Midge; wish it could have gone on.
He couldn’t let her on the plane. He had to fire her and make it look like a spat in the press to keep the jokes from being taken seriously. That was damage control just like his sudden engagement.
Reggie didn’t tell her to make gay jokes he told her to make jokes about him having star fits on the road and other things but he in no way implied to make gay jokes about a black man in the 60’s.
Season 3 was the BEST!!
The Shy Baldwin and Sophie Lennone stories carried the season!!
Midge is the main character. Of course, everyone is going to want to root for her. However, she nearly destroyed Shys' entire rep and career. He was right to fire her. He just handled it wrong.
“Congratulations. I hope you’re going to be very happy.” Best f-you ever for this situation.
She was invited to the wedding by Shy's new machine to bribe her to keep her mouth shut.
Shy is based on Jonny Mathis, in case you are wondering.
Although what Miriam did on stage was possibly a great danger to Shy’s career, being black artist in USA was hard enough for him and being gay did not make it any easier but at least he could’ve let Miriam explain it by making her and Suzy got on plane. But instead, he did her dirty by leaving her like that, after every thing they’ve been through, after every secrets he told her, after every help she di for him. He was being too controlled by his manager and fame. By the end of the day, he was the one who lost, he was the one who is left alone and lead himself to unhappy life.
Yes they were close, and then she betrayed his trust in a truly horrific way. He was absolutely in the right to fire her for what she did.
It could have gotten him killed if they hadn’t done the damage control they did to buried it.
Letting her on the plane would have done what exactly she still would have been fired and I can’t imagine after going through a betrayal like that having the emotional capacity to want to face that person after it just happened. There’s no explanation midge could have said to rectify what she had done. Him leaving her in the tarmac is nothing compared to what she did and it had to be done to do damage control.
You’re absolutely right. Real friends give each other a chance to explain, don’t just cut each other off like that - and in the end, he cut off everyone who cared, which is perhaps a tragedy for all us to learn from about what it meant to be a mega successful black, gay man in that era.
Still, within the private relationship between two adults, you have the choice to communicate like an adult or the choice to behave immaturely, and he took the immature route, forcing her apology to have to come a year late, and by that time, the friendship was truly broken, which she had the maturity to recognize.
I say this as a gay person - when you come out, everyone around you is forced to come out with you. There’s a learning curve. They don’t always get it right at first.
Not only was Midge provoked to make anecdotes about Shy’s life on stage right before curtain, but no one handed her a pamphlet on how to handle the situation of a closeted gay friend (in 1961!) perfectly.
Everyone deserves to be met where they are and given space to be human and fallible - even straight white people. There is no special onus on them or anyone else to know more or do better just because of privilege. To say so falls short of recognizing the basic human qualities that are common to all of us.
It amazes me that this has to be explained, but it’s 2023, and here we are.
Midge was a great comic, but she needed to understand boundaries. There was a chance she was repeat her behaviour on tour.
Shy was fully in the right to fire her. The only thing I would’ve done was fire her in person, not on the tarmac. That was cold. He could’ve at least said something awful about her to her face.
Miriam wasn’t self aware at all. Why didn’t she leave the door open for Shy?? To leave him with more pain?? Shameful. That was a difficult scene to watch. Shy was left with no one. It made me want to hug him at the end.
You would think that as this scene was progressing both of them would see the light in the act of forgiveness.
Midge however just had to have that final 15 seconds to say "NO".
That was maybe the harshest moment of the season because inlike the scene with Lenny at the end, both people in this relationship ended the conversation even more embittered than when the scene began. Shys life is ruined, and Midge Burned a genuine bridge to the ground and gained no benefit from it at all.
1:11 ... where is the camera and the crew? How did they do that?
CGI perhaps, either the camera was edited out of the shot or the actor's reflections were edited in. They may have also disguised the camera behind an object, the painting or the flowers on the table.
I think the reason Midge is angry is not for being fired, but because Shy didnt fire her himself and didn't give her time to apologize, even after his tour. She was wrong for what she did (even if not on purpose), but I think she would have appreciated it more if he was straightforward with her and not just cut off all ties with her and leave her waiting at the airport.
He was right, his method was wrong.
After Shy got Midge fired, I was hoping she would get a chance to confront him in a future episode. I blame Susie on that one for not getting Midge's contract signed before things blew up but I consider Shy to be the bad guy here. He let an innocent joke convince him to fire someone who had been a genuine friend to him. I know plenty of people in these comments are saying the joke could have ended Shy's career or even life but consider that Shy had a reputation as a "ladies man" and I doubt anyone would have read that deep into a silly joke about ruby slippers. Firing Midge was a severe overreaction. I do think the writers took things a bit far in remaking Shy's life by replacing his band and manager/brother. The show basically sets up Shy to be miserable living a lie and being heavily "managed" for the rest of his life. Shy's career is now being run by men who would readily bribe anybody who knew Shy's secret and do not consider Shy's happiness to be relevant. Midge has never been shown to be the kindest of souls so it's appropriate that she didn't want anything to do with Shy in the future. Perhaps they could have had an episode in season 5 where Midge and Shy buried the hatchet years later.
Is this based on Johnny Mathis?
The whole point of the series is that Midge isn't a 100% good person. She's better than a lot of people, considering the time she grew up in but, she's still very petty and holds a grudge, she's also very ignorant in certain situations and while Shy put a momentary halt on her career, she nearly destroyed his and basically confined him to a life of solitude away from his band and friends. She of course found out and felt bad about it but, it was too late. Her Shy Baldwin act would've been pretty good in the 90s/early 2000s but, I guess her sense of humour was ahead of its time, as shown by that ventriloquist comedian that had a very modern act, involving his puppet dying and the audience didn't get it, meanwhile Midge and Susie were dying of laughter.
It was not because of Midge that Shy is in this position … he likely got caught out AGAIN and management forced him into the marriage situation to keep him in check - and clearly did not feel Reggie was able to handle it anymore.
Midge was not right but I’m not saying this is all her fault
It is 100% because of midge. She made those jokes and a few days later he was engaged to a woman and firing everyone who worked with her.
“He likely got caught out” well according to the show it seemed that midges jokes is what had this ripple effect on shys life. It’s more likely that the management was doing damage control after what midge says so yeah this is 100% her fault
@@jojoc8229 ??? But he had no management then aside from his friend???
@@swordchild0013 you just mentioned the management in your original comment, the im pretty sure we’re talking about the same one lol. I know at the time midge was fired shy had Reggie (his friend) as his manager but I’m pretty sure shy had other people than Reggie (his friend) that we’re helping his career like his label that he’s signed too lol. Reggie was just his manger but the label is his management. the ones that call the shots, The ones that probably right after this scene wanted to pay midge hush money, the ones that fired his crew and Reggie the ones that forced him into a fake marriage because of what midge said. That’s what I was trying to say in my original comment?
I’m just watching this because Rachel is the new Lois lane
She could have got him killed, that self serving “apology”was all about her. Where’s the acknowledgment that she put him in danger? That he was forced to marry a woman because of what she did? How selfish was she ? She knew nothing of what it means to be a gay black man in that era. And WHAT LESSON did she learn exactly? She had the nerve to BLAME HIM. It was VERY generous of him to try and repair a friendship after she divulged privileged information in public without consent, talk about white privilege.
Why was Reggie not with him anymore?
Ig he got fired or "replaced" by Lou and his team. It was pretty clear that a white person was needed to navigate at that time and those jokes ig crossed the line and could have been real bad if they made it to the press. Reggie had Lou as kind of a subordinate to him but after the show he may have been taken over by Lou and his team.
Oh it was also said that he got a good house in some weird neighbourhood which wasn't even his choice or preference.
I mean they gotta do what they gotta do. But yeah, the last lines from Midge sounds like coming from her ego. Both of them should've given each other a chance to reconnect but iy's also understandable that things wouldn't be the same again. Gotta move on.
Edit: To that one guy in the replies, I see your point and nah I ain't old, I was just stuck in an abusive household at the time but I'm good now :p anyways I think people are missing the fact about how both Midge and Shy fucked up. Shy humiliated her and expected for her to be able to trust him again because Midge almost outed him, which could've killed him. Nobodies a jackass. They're both just good people in the 60s who royally fucked up due to the fact that they are in the 60's. And its worst seeing how Shy's now alone from what I remember idk its been a minute since I finished this show. If it weren't for their careers or if this were the modern day then they probably would've been great friends. Womp womp.
He didn’t have a choice. He had to fire her to make it seem she made the jokes out of personal spite. It was part of the damage control just like his marriage.
Question how old are you? Did you similar situation also happen in the 60’s?
Guys im korean so idk about american's queer history at all. So somebody pls explain about judy's shoes? Cause in my opinion i rly don't think that could be an outing anyway if u guys think it could be then midge, girl u should be shut ur mouth and just apology
She nailed it 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
Everyone is making midge the villain who ruined his life and saying that everyone else didn't understand for saying otherwise, the funny thing is most of the comments are like this so who's saying otherwise, well I'll tell you who it's me , midge just accelerated what happened to him but even without her it was gonna happen eventually and it was accidentall not on purpose plus she's literally apologizing in this scene yet people say she's making it all about her , he's in a tough position i get it i reaaaaally do but he chose to leave his crew and marry, his choices were limited yes but he still chose and the reason his choices were limited isn't midge as i said she just accelerated shit it was always gonna be this way , sucks for him but it's not really her fault, not saying it's his either but he could've at least like she said talked to her give her a chance to at least apologize as a friend but no he chose block her off and then left his other friends to keep his career i don't want to judge him for that last part but it wasn't midge who forced him to choose it was the world it was always gonna be this way
I don’t really understand this comment cause whether or not midge ruined his life or just accelerated what was to come the betrayal is what sucks the most, the way she just easily betrayed shys and act as if she was the victim is why everyone is criticizing her not just making her out to be the villain for no reason. Just because you think it was bound to happen anyway does not make what she did that night okay. Even in this scene where she’s apologizing she’s still making it about herself and how SHE FEELS so bad about messing up but there are moments where she’s still justifying which is not how you apologize. midge shares most of the blame if not all for what happened to her and for why their friendship ended not shy. Her actions is what forced his management to do damage control to fire midge publicly so what she said that night would be invalidated, to get rid of his manager and crew the people who knew about his secret and to get him in a fake marriage. Yes he chose to do that but it was midges actions that led to the that choice where he had to choose between his career and the people he loved. Midge did absolutely wrong and just to say that it would have happened anyway so midge isn’t really to blame is taking off all the responsibility of midge which is not fair.
WAIT!!! Gay black men were lynched in the 60s?!
How appalling!!!!😏
Uhhh...I am just messing with you.
I don't know anything about that show.😄
Midge had the right not to accept his olive branch. He hurt her deeply. Yes, her performance was reckless, but to abandon her on the tarmac? Really? They couldn't have let her go in a more civilized way?
Well you gotta think he also had to think about his safety in that time being gay was a death sentence not just him losing a career never having a full life a happy one at least
And to think that they already knew she was going to be replaced but waited until she got to the tarmac to dump her? That was just callous and uncalled for.
I am not a big fan of how she goes off sometimes and talks about people dear to her, but she considered herself his friend and she thought he saw her in the same light. But he treated her like garbage.
Yes, she had every right not to accept his olive branch.
She should’ve tried with Shy.
Why is she so awful
Ugh can't stand him..I never trusted him from the start, something about him was off and his manger was an a$$hole from the get go.
Miriam shouldn't have put all her eggs in one basket.Glad she learned in the end tho.
Was 100% Midges fault
Show business is and ugly business and you have NO friends in show business. Shy was wrong, Midge messed up mistakenly. Glad to see Reggie gone, he was not a real friend to Shy only a payroll receiver.