NASA's Most Important Satellites: Satellites Talk To All The Other Satellites
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ย. 2023
- In the 1970's NASA began development of the Tracking & Data Relay Satellite System - a fundamental part of NASA's space infrastructure which allows satellites near the Earth to communicate back to mission control even when there's no ground stations visible over the horizon.
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My mom used to work in the NORAD public affairs office and would be able to get me promotional items for aerospace and defense companies. One thing she got me was a build it yourself cardboard model of the TDRS satellite, which was pretty neat.
I think that this is one TH-cam channel that my Dad would've liked had he not passed away in 2022. He was a proper space nut!
Mine too, we used to trade emails with links to space articles and interesting engineering stuff - I so miss seeing his name in my inbox. Sorry for your loss 💔
My dad worked for TRW in the 90s, they’re a part of Northrop Grumman now, but they built the TDRS fleet at Space Park in Southern California. He has an MBA and he just works in finance, but it was pretty cool getting to look into the clean room from observation at 10 years old. 🙂
TRW built (mostly) solid birds. One USAF program which I worked in had a flight last 20X its intended lifespan. (most birds in that program exceeded their contracted life span, there were only a few failures)
What they were able to accomplish with those early ships and remote ground stations decoding primitive digital signals from Mercury capsules was amazing. I’d love to hear your version of the tales of early NASA mission control
Gene Kranz's book is pretty good for that
@@TonyHammitt what is the title?
It truly was an ingenious use of various communications technologies.
I got to design antenna feed components for TDRS H/I/J and also on TDRS follow on K/L/M. We only used one S for TDRS because we building the satellite and not the system. I remember while working on K/L/M, I had a timecard audit and part of the audit asked what was working on. When I replied TDRS, I was was asked what that stood for (I think I was required to know that). I replied Tracking Data Relay Satellite and the auditor said, "that's a mouthful." It was one of the most fun things I worked on.
I see Scott finally got a Flipper Zero :)
I was wondering if that's what I see there.
Hehehehe
A funny thing to prominently place in a series about wireless communication
I used to work as an operator at LASP at the University of Colorado, primarily working on AIM. Something interesting to note is that TDRSS had a priority list of who got time on it, and at the time I worked there, AIM was almost always the top of the list due to comms issues. However, with some of the other spacecraft, we'd frequently get messages from NASA saying we'd need to reschedule contacts because someone else needed the time more. The behind-the-scenes bureaucracy of making TDRSS work for everyone was pretty interesting.
Nice to meet a fellow spacecraft controller. I work at Ball Aerospace and was one of the mission operations members for the Kepler Space Telescope. I also helped build and launch IXPE which LASP is flying for us.
@stuartgray5877 I have nothing of value to contribute but just want to say *That's really cool!"
STK made it a hell of a lot easier. Truly stunning piece of kit, worth every penny. Sadly, there is no more free / open source version, so nothing for the amateur to use.
As an occasional comms analyst, always happy to see TDRSS getting some recognition! If only they weren't so expensive for most missions...
Whatever version of Starlink they are on when Starship starts delivering them, could have phased arrays on the back as well as the front.
Then offer satellite to satellite Internet service.
What do you mean so expensive for most missions?
We don't have anything better? The statement for most missions is throwing me off. Isnt TDRSS the pronoun of a satellite or is it a type of satellite?
That satellite is cool, and all. Yet it is about rhe most hideous thing we've put in space. Reminds me of Star Wars Fan Art.
The animation showing the antenna reminded me of some crippled fetus monstrosity spreading its little clawed arms ready to devour the next planet.
It is really insane how far we've come. From computer power to just how much we take these satelites for granted in our daily lives.
@@dianapennepacker6854 I'm talking about this from a spacecraft mission analysis angle - it can be a higher expense service to use TDRSS than other options, mission-dependent. Spacecraft usually need to pay for comms time on the SCaN Networks (NEN and DSN). TDRSS is not necessarily the cheapest option but it sometimes is necessary due to factors such as the spacecraft's orbit, ground station availability, and service per minute or day requirements.
@@dianapennepacker6854NASA charges satellite missions for use of TDRSS, and it is much more expensive than downlinks directly to ground stations during the part of orbits where that is possible. So satellites have to store the data and wait for a downlink pass.
@@dianapennepacker6854pronoun would be "it/its" , it's an acronym.
Also space things don't have to be pretty, aerodynamics ain't important out there
I've only made a few phone calls over satellite, but the most interesting one was when I had to call the "IT guy" at one of the Australian Antarctic stations to troubleshoot why the VPN device that we sent with one of our journalists wouldn't work through their Internet link. Turns out it was a firewall port issue, and they don't manage their firewall locally so it would've taken too long for them to send a request and get it actioned for our journalist who was only there for a few days to use. So they just used the VPN client on their laptop instead, which worked because it used a different protocol. In the end, they managed to shoot the story and transfer the files back in time to make the evening news, so it worked out just fine.
Galileo's main antenna was based off of large antennas used on the first-generation TDRS systems. We know that despite the advantage of a foldable "umbrella" style antenna, the disadvantage would be long-term storage on the ground in the event of a major down period such as the down period after Challenger (plus other factors such as the switching from the Centaur-D to the IUS, forcing JPL to go from the direct trajectory used by Pioneer and Voyager to the "VEEGA" trajectory used by Galileo instead; the main antenna being required to remain folded until after the Venus and first Earth flyby, whereas with the Centaur-D, the antenna would have been opened less than 24 hours after launch and deployment from the Shuttle).
Galileo was FUCKED due to the crapped shuttle!!!😢😢😢👎👎👎
When he says "We all know how that went" about Challenger disaster. That was 36 years ago, and I'm surprised all the time by people who aren't aware of what happened when you say "Challenger Space Shuttle".
I guess we are all getting old.
I wrote "Exxon Valdez" on a pallet jack at work which leaks oil a lot. I had to explain it to every single one of the twenty- and thirty-something "kids" I work with, who are half my age.
I'm 33, I remember when Exxon Valdez was in the news.
Millennials/Z totally SUCKS!!!👎👎👎
That moment you recognize the satellite fuction after building it several times with a Probodyne HECS and a pair of high-gain antennas (just for redundancy)
10:03 I remember that one of the many hardware losses from the Challenger disaster was the loss of one of the TDRS satellites.
That's right, good memory. It was never replaced at a cost of $1 billion dollars each. There is still a hole in orbital coverage where that satellite should be.
Also lost was the ONLY US contribution to study Halley,s comet. There was a TRIPPLE national mission to that comet in 1986!!! US: nada!!!🤮🤮🤮
One feature of TDRS I would like to know more about is how they could eliminate the reentry communication blackout during shuttle reentry. The shuttle could contact a TDRS satellite during the blackout with the ground by sending a signal back up into space, missing the plasma. I was disappointed to find out that the SpaceX Dragon could not make use of TDRS to eliminate it's reentry blackout. Maybe the plasma shadow behind the capsule was too narrow?
I guess that must be it. The Shuttle was so damn big and entered the atmosphere like a pancake, so I’m sure its “plasma shadow” (or tunnel or whatever you call it) was huge. With a mostly-conical capsule, the plasma trail closes behind it - you can actually see this in the re-entry video from the Orion capsule.
Satellite: "All you do to me is talk talk."
?
Talk, talk. Tape.
No matter what, got signals on my mind I can never get enough 😎thought I’d finish the lyrics 😂 had to, I’m sorry 😂✌🏼
Pulling off yer pants...Dave's inner monolithic craft..
...Hal really never stood a chance..
I believe it was TDRS that reduced the time of communications blackout during Shuttle reentry. The Shuttle's TDRS antenna(s) were placed and aimed in a position less affected by the plasma trail.
Thanks Scott for continuing this series on Communication Satellites and the advancements made.
One of the neat things about how Space Shuttle Discovery is displayed at the Smithsonian Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly, Virginia is there is a Tracking and Data Relay Satellite displayed above it.
The ONLY good thing for the shuttle is being a hangar queen! 👑👑👑😢😢😢
The telediagnostic and treatment to the South Pole story is so iconic that one DrHouse episode is directly inspired from it.
The Sam Neill movie The Dish
is well worth a look
The first time I went to Australia I visited Parkes. Great fun!
I always heard that they lettered satellites on the ground and numbered them in space so people didn't get confused about which satellite you were talking about. That never made sense to me, but it's the only answer I heard, and applied to multiple programs...TDRS, POES, GOES, and early Landsats.
I would think it's so that if a satellite on the ground winds up not being launched for some reason, or maybe has a problen in testing that needs to be fixed so another one goes next, then the one that does fly gets the next sequential number, which likely has some mission planning assigned to that number.
That could be it. The only time I saw that happen during my career was with a DMSP satellite that was launched out of order. For them, a satellite on the ground had an "S-" number and one in flight had an "F-" number. So (for example) S-12 became F-11 on orbit. Maybe it happened more often in the past and that led to the practice?
Love hearing these old space stories! Please keep them coming!
Greetings from Las Cruces New Mexico USA, home of White Sands Complex and the prime TDRS ground station
Another thing to mention in context of upcoming changes to this System, is probably the initiative/Idea of the LunaNET. Aimed at building and Providing a similar service, but with higher bandwith and other Requirments, to future Moon Missions. Also going the route of a Mesh Based Connection System.
I have had to do "Compatibility" tests of multiple spacecraft before launch using the TDRSS network. We put a tracking high gain antenna on the roof of our cleanroom, cable it directly to the spacecraft and wait for our TDRSS pass to start. Then we verify the satellite can lock on our downlink signal and process the telemetry. Then they attempt to command our spacecraft from the TDRSS network.
'TDRS Pass' is amusing since the satellites are geosynchronous :) But I get what you're saying.
@@scottmanley for our latitude the TDRSS sat we were assigned for this test was at fairly low elevation and followed sort of a figure eight in the sky. We had to track it with a 2axis gimbal and for part of this pattern it was too low in the sky and obscured by neighboring buildings. So we had a limited "window".
@@scottmanley And one of these days we might want to have me on your show. I could tell you lots of interesting stories about:
Mars Global Surveyor - How we almost blew up the spacecraft at KSC because of a spider, or how the Solar array almost broke off at launch and nearly jeopardized the aerobraking mission.
Stardust - how we shipped the spacecraft to KSC for launch with no Avionics in it and how we detected the inverted G-sensor (missed on Genesis)
Genesis - What REALLY happened to cause it to plow into the Utah desert and how the mission was nearly lost to a thermal error in the sample return capsule.
Mars 98 Orbiter - What REALLY happened to cause that spacecraft to crash into the atmosphere of Mars.
Deep Impact - How we messed up the focus of the High-Resolution Imager (similar to Hubble) then FIXED in in flight without a focus mechanism. Or how a MISTAKE on my part during the last 2 weeks before encounter caused us to find a fatal flaw that would have made us miss the comet entirely.
Kepler Space Telescope - How I was likely personally responsible for the early wheel failures due to an anomaly during ground test.
NOAA-20 - How we had an earthquake on the pad at VAFB and got the data from the onboard fiber-optic gyros that showed the entire rocket rocking back and forth on the pad for 2 minutes after the quake. This was due to retest because of a LIGHTNING STORM (at VAFB???) that hit within 5 miles of the spacecraft in the week before launch.
IXPE Xray Telescope - How we damaged the deployment boom during I&T and had to leave the whole "payload" hanging in the air from a crane for over a week.
And I am sure I can think of many others.
Do you have a blog? I'd certainly intrigued!
...GREAT video as always and also i LUV that You have flipper 0 on the desk :)
Big fan of these videos Scott !!
Thanks Scott for all your videos and content. You are the coolest geek out there!
Great video, Scott...👍
Great info Scott. It was great to be able to increase K band capacity when the later TDRSS satellites didn't have the C-Band equipment and service to deal with.
This is such an awesome series!
One of your best to date Scott 👉💎👈❗❗❗
I used to watch NASA tv on the TDRSS satellite back in the late 1990's, had to use an upconverter as it transmitted at 13.250 Ghz
Happy Thanksgiving Scott!
Thanks for the history lesson, Scott! 😊
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
And happy holidays!
With the naming scheme of letters before launch and numbers after launch. This reminds me of the moon mission days where the mission were letters based on their progress where as the flights for those missions had numbers based on the order they occurred. Wondering if the wanted a letter so a failure did not result in a missing number or a delay on one unit did not result in the numbers being launched out of order.
Great to hear the story about TDRSS. The Landsat satellites used TDRSS to increase their data acquisition capability. NASA made an agreement with JAXA to increase ALOS satellite acquisitions over the Americas in 2009 using TDRSS, but the ALOS satellite only worked for about a year after that.
I want more Curious Marc and Scott Manley colabs.
HOUSE MD did an episode almost exactly mirroring that story at the south pole. Too cool.
Great video
You hacker! I see the Flipper Zero on your desk, lol. Great video.
Finally I know how to use those antennas in Kerbal this is indeed great wisdom
Brings back memories of ERBS days 1984 STS-41G. In order to prove the electronic steerable array antenna actually would work on orbit you had to actually talk to it and pass data through. That had the test team on top of the Fisher Test Building at some ungodly hour 1 or 2 am if memory serves. Squinting at the Spectrum Analyzer to be sure we were looking the right direction and the signal was present. Yup there it was a clear carrier with all the fuzz at either end showing where all the data was. We were there at such an hour because we were low on the totem pole for access to TDRSS realtime. Must have been TDRSS A?
Tony! When I saw "ERBS" and "Fisher Building" I knew this was a Ball Employee!
How are you doing?
Doing well Stu, Retired, now going for my Flight Instructor rating. Good to hear from you! How are you doing?
Doing well, retired aerospace now working on Flight Instruction@@stuartgray5877
@@tonycash7686 I am still working (mostly remote). I helped build and launched IXPE and worked most recently on WSF-M and might get to go to one more launch in a few months.
I am glad you get to live your dream in retirement - I have had health challenges lately and will be interested to see what happens with the buyout by BAE that will hit us early next year.
You must have spoken with Pedja B. he was software-test/manager at Ball. He was an instructor for acrobatic flight and even trained Dave when he was Pres. of BATC.
I'm betting younger people watching this video are going "is that it?!? KBPS?" Yep. Surprising how much information that is. Those of us who were around when 300 baud was a thing used to DREAM of 10Kbaud. Now, gig to the house over fiber. Oh, how times have changed!
I still have my old modems around somewhere. I have a 24Kbaud and a 56Kbaud external, which probably still work, if there were someone to call over an analog phone line... ^-^
This system must somehow be connected to a company called COMSAT too. They have a base station in Southbury, CT right by a CL&P hydro station, And when I toured that power plant they stated that any time the space shuttle was up and for most of the first gulf war they had to keep the turbines spinning at the hydro station. Going to guess it was no mistake they built it next to a hydro electric station.
The renaming thing also happened with GOES.
I was employed at one of the STADAN network and was a bitter/Sweet moment when TDRSS was launched. Lots of STADAN ground stations and personnel decommissioned after many years of service.
Nice collection of visual aids: just a note on the umbrella style dishes.
The earlier ones have ribs same as rain umbrella, the wire mesh between ribs is flat, meaning the foucs is star shape ( number of points on the star same as the number of ribs). The reciever hence designed to match that focal shape ( can see moon buggy receiver clearly in some pics has points on the focal reciever. So this is no mean feat to produce such a folding umbrella with sharpish focus.
The later models do away with this design meaning there is no flat area between ribs, the whole dish has some 'roundness' to it, not a number of flat panels between ribs. The later ones use diagonal ribs to maintain roundness of the reflective mesh between the typical umbrella type ribs.
That will give a better focus being more spherical in nature than the earlier starshaped focal areas.
Note that the earlier umbrellas could fold up, the later ones only a very partial fold could be achieved.
So I'm guessing the soluton to a completely folding umbrella with roundness maintained between ribs may not have been solved as yet. I'm only speculating on that.
That's fascinating, it explains why the dish folding mechanism was changed between generations.
Thank for the video Scott.. Have a Great Thanksgiving with your family.
Poll to poll phone call is so cool
Happy Thanksgiving 🦃🍁🍽 2023!
My assumption was they were letter designation before launch based upon their version in the series build. Once successfully in orbit they would then be numbered relative to their position in the constellation. Nothing is guaranteed. And you would want sequential numbers (no gaps) for tracking when active.
I believe they do the exact same thing with NOAA and GOES satellites, they also get numbered once they are operational.
This may also have to do with decoupling contract names used in procurement from operational names. Like you said, nice to have numbers with no gaps, and in the correct order.
That was my thought as well.
So, why wasn’t TDRS-C named TDRS-2?
"And you would want sequential numbers" Too bad they didn't think ahead for Project Gemini ; )
@@scottmanleyi assumed the pre-launch letter system only came into effect after the loss of TDRS-2 during the challenger disaster
I would like to know more about how the computers handled all that data. The capabilities of the satellites were enormous compared to what computers of the day could deal with.
They did a lot more in hardware, like de-multiplexing multiple streams of data. They also recorded data then processed it offline.
Yeah they recorded it at high frequency and analysed any parts of a given transmission at a later time.
It may have been processed by the hardware in real-time but any analysis was not - for the reasons you gave.
"It looks like you've blown a seal." "Leave my personal life out of it and fix the satellite."
13:57 COOL SPACE lol
I can see a Flipper Zero, so cool.
On a related note, Real Antennas adds 1000% complexity to the comm system in the KSP like FAR did. This video gives a content opportunity to make a tutorial on how to use Real Antennas!
I remember touring Gold stone late 80s(?) (gawd, 35 years ago?) and the had info posted on walls regarding TDRS which was 'A new thing' then
TDRS are given letters and they stay in effect until they pass their break in/testing phase . Once they pass that they are then given the number . Funny thing is NASA employees do not refer to them by any of those, they use their position in degrees . TDRS is a great system. Last i heard Space X was going to build the next set of TDRS .
In the early 2000s an MCI earth station in Washington state served as the US end of a number of Asia-Pacific C-band TDRSS links for the DoD. It may have been a spare bird as it did 'wobble' in orbit quite a bit.
This explains the old joke: What did Big Ben say to TDRSS 1? I've got the time if you've got the inclination.
That footage of the moon buggy at the start is crystal clear.
That.
That flipper omniously sitting there...
Oddly enough I was just watching a piece on the WSJ (YT) channel about how the DSN (Deep Space Network) is overloaded at present ...
WHOA!
...ask about (TDRS) and You DELIVER. !!
FANTABULOUS. ! !!
Time 934 If you want to look busy for the camera, run around with a dial caliper.
"Screwdriver shot"!
@@marcmcreynolds2827 Or an oil can in a factory.
Hang around looking busy like a kerbal walking around the floor of the VAB
Waiting for the Iridium satellite system vid and how it was very nearly sent crashing to the ground, literally.
Maybe it's a tad out of your usual style but I haven't seen anyone talk about that the first operational use of a weapon in space happened a few weeks ago... the interception of an IRBM.
nice
IRBM? Intermediate-range ballistic missile? Had to google that acronym, never heard it before. I found a news article about "Israeli fighter jet intercepts cruise missile outside Eilat" is that the one you mean?
@@lawrencefrost9063 a cruise missile flies under active power and low velocity in the lower atmosphere the whole way. An IRBM leaves the atmosphere on a ballistic trajectory at extreme velocity.
@@lawrencefrost9063 there were cruise missiles but also a purely ballistic missile fired by the rebels in Yemen that was intercept above the Karman line by an Arrow 3 missile.
@@SierraSierraFoxtrot I see, thanks for the clarification, both of you.
TRW built the 1st generation TDRS constellation (S and Ku band).
Sadly, one lost (TDRS B) with Challenger in Jan. 1986.
11:03 DRADIS contact! Three Cylon Basestars just jumped into orbit!
Where I work! 💪🏻 There is actually a 13th.
5:48 I love how they didn't want the satellite to do the math likely because it would take too much processing time and nowadays it barely takes any processing power to do the same thing 100 times over.
Frankly, the 1st generation TDRS were more robust in the ability to customize beam forming as new ideas and techniques were developed compared to the 2nd and 3 generation TDRS where by the beam forming is hard coded.
Why did that TDRSS-1 diagram say "solar sail"?
There's a small additional panel added to balance out the solar pressure on all the apertures. This the name "solar sail".
What kind of satellite consternation should/would we build once we go colonize planets outside our solar system? Does this require different systems than interplanetary setups?
That would certainly cause a lot of consternation
Did you have a look at IPNG, basically Internet at an interplanetary scale?
I see that flipper zero on your desk, what are you up to with it? :D
Is that a Flipper Zero on your desk? 😋
I thought TDRS network has been providing all time communication nowadays, but I remember during Starliner's OFT-1 there was communication blackout which ultimately resulted mission failure. So how could this happen? Is there still uncovered zone by TDRS networks?
Two part answer.
1.) SpaceX has to pay for that NASA communications service.
SpaceX has their own global coverage stations (2 former NASA dishes in Boca Chica; others).
2.) TDRS did have some small blackout areas, between TDRS coverage (Zone of exclusions).
This depends launch and orbital inclination (Shuttle ~51°).
Peek-a-boo: I see your little dolphin.
What do you think of that Flipper Scott?
Did Flipper pay you to put that on your desk while recording? :-D
Is it me, or is your mic's only role in this video that of a fashion accessory?
Scotty Help me plz. What is the maximum velocity a star ship can accelerate to. The ship is 1/2 mass fuel. You need to accelerate thrust at light speed. How fast can you go? You need matter for energy and matter for thrust. How fast can you go, hypothetically.
I sate-like this
0:40 I assume that the distance is more of a problem, because otherwise the coverage domain should have been WAAAAAY larger.
At least for higher-altitude LEO satellites.
Satellite of Love , 866 ron 0 fez, 866 ron 0 fez
0:20 I didn't realise that the moon was in low earth orbit. Which is sort of remarkable...
1:20 If the relay satellites were indispensable for the Space Shuttle programme, why were they launched by the Space Shuttle programme?
And why was it launched 1983, if the moon mission was 1969?
How does NASA ensure reliable communications with the Mars missions during solar conjunctions?
13:24 Antarctic traffic control, this is the Nostromo, out of the Solomon's ...
have you noticed the statement in the background? :)
Title typo? (Talk Talk)
something doesn't add up for me with the whole "doing the phase shifting math on the ground"
if you transmit on an antenna array, you have to do the phase shifting on the satellite, otherwise you would not be focusing your energy enough for it to be received.
also, this math is not that complicated anyway. what am I misunderstanding?
Suggest reading the engineering papers
What do you mean “not be focusing your energy enough”?
The crafts don’t learn pointing angles at the time of transmission. The antennas already know where to send the signal (within tolerance) based on predictions from previous passes. But I may be misunderstanding what you’re getting at
the tracking station ships were cool, im sad they had to go away.
Interesting
Bro where did you get a flipper zero?
Scott, is there any footage from cameras on the moon (like from the Rovers) “after” the astronauts left?
For minutes.
Yeah the supposed moon landings…..hahahahahahahahahaha……
shut@@wattsmichaele
@@scottmanley ????
@@sjTHEfirst He said "for minutes". That obviously means there were cameras left behind, they worked for a few minutes after the astronauts left.
How do you like the Flipper?
Seems that seals and gaskets have a grudge against space flight; at least for America. For Russia, its seems that wrenches, bolts, and vodka are the primary villain.
TDRSS is different from the deep space network, then? How does that fit into all of this? I have just heard the term when watching space videos. Is the deep space network even satellites or something else? I suppose I could look it up for myself but I'm lazy.
TDRS is like the near space network th-cam.com/video/4aRr4bYiJFM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=OgwuDPKp11W7h5fY