in a pot of 4 you're always up against four people, not just tomer. look at our clash-crew: crim fights mtgo, phil draws sol ring and aggro, seth somehow durdles in boros, richard is in an abusive relationship with random birds, tomer fights salt and sequencing.
I have 1 deck with 11 board wipes in it and that's my Atla eldrazi/blightsteel/worldslayer turbo deck where they can trigger Atla or clear the board for an easy hit. But I do also have a Zurgo helmsmasher deck that has 30 board wipes.
I play in a pod of close friends. I started to get more into commander and buy better cards to improve my deck. My pod couldn't keep up with some of the decks and they werent in a place to sink the money like i am. I was unable to play my newer tunned decks and no we were collectivly having less fun. One day i suggested they proxy cards into decks they wanted to build for missing cards. It was the best thing. We resurged and play so much more now. Proxies are the best way to level a game when players have different financial situations but all share a love for MTG
When you combine the rising cost of many commander cards with some people's current financial statuses, proxies are one of the things that are keeping me in the game at all. Being able to keep your deck forever doesn't matter when your deck becomes so overshadowed by some of these new cards being so pushed. I'm lucky to have been playing for a while and have a decent sized collection to build decks from, but sudden emergencies and swelling financial responsibilities have prevented me from being able to 'keep up' with the new stuff.
Yeah, the thing they missed with the envying shortcuts, pay-to-win thing, was that this kind of situation should never come up. You discuss it with your play group, and you set the rules. like "don't proxy duals" or something that you all agree to. and when you play with randoms, don't use proxied cards. easy as that.
I always appreciate Richard's contributions to the podcast. I think many discussions would be very one-sided without his input. He's not being contrarian - they are thoughtful points.
The crew is good. A lot of conflicting opinions, and therefore potential discussion, arise from a grixis player, a mono-white player, a budget player, and a player who never pays the one for rhystic study
the devil's advocate stuff seems unnecessary, it really only servers to give validation to views that should not be validated. other than that he's great, but because of that he's the only one I ever find myself getting actively annoyed with things he's saying but then saying he doesn't agree/believe. for instance I think he harped on proxies for far to long.
He is a contrarian and often has a lot of genuinely deranged takes But this is a good thing!!!! He’s like the podcast villain, without conflict it would just be everyone agreeing which would be lame
I have some foiled out decks and it would have absolutely zero impact on my enjoyment to know all of my opponents' decks were proxied. I did it because I liked it, but I'm here to chill and play games with my friends first and foremost. I want them to enjoy the game *and* feel comfortable about their personal finances.
I think Richard has a good point about single target removal but i value it more because when you have a Swords in hand, you don’t have to fire it off at the first creature to hit the board. Even if your opponent plays something really scary, 2/3 of the time they will use it against one of your opponents. The advantage single target removal has over sweepers is that you can wait till the last possible second to fire it off and take the most advantage of your opponents threats
Even with something like Craterhoof, your opponent is usually trying to be precise with the math to kill all 3 of you, so if you Swords one of the creatures sent your way (especially if there is just one creature coming your way) you benefit immensely
Plus the political aspect: "If you attack me your creature will die. Are you sure you don't want to attack someone else?" or "Player A, I can save you from player B's attack. What cna you do for me?"
i still think swords is an auto include. richards point just kept coming back to “instead just generous gift or teferis protection”. Well you play all 3…thats not really a solid point. no, it wont help with a dockside etb but neither will generous gift. in fact swords will exile it and prevent its loops whereas gift will let them recur it. ive never once had a swords in hand and not feel great. its offensive, defensive, and can break combos and loops
@@joe2125 yep, a buddy of mine plays a bruna deck, I love having path or swords in hand early game because it means I'm never worried about him. And at my LGS it's pretty casual with not alot of combo decks. So this whole time was going off I was wondering what he was talking about because it sounded like he was talking about CEDH or very boarderline.
There's an overemphasis on going net-negative on cards. Single target removal really does answer the threat when you need to while still giving you enough mana to actually play your game/not nuking your own board in the process. Keeping W open rather than 2W matters. Letting an opponent sink some resource into building for an attack or creature combo and then removing it for W is massive. It's not just about the card, it's about the play, state of the game, etc. Basically don't fall for the meme that 1-4-1 is always strictly incorrect. Hoping to Tef Prot your way out and just letting the opponent accrue value can backfire to a single 1-4-1 counter. Wiping the board every time you see something is overkill (which is almost always strictly incorrect) and sets you back too. Most casual creature decks are synergy based and get blown out by smart interaction which cheap 1-4-1 can do well enough.
@@marsrocks247 not always, lol. Completely disagree with his spot removal take. In casual commander, spot removal is fine, against certain decks it's necessary, but it does matter what you're up against.
I have a friend that plays alot of cards that benefit the spell's caster and one opponent. He calls it coerced friendship. And it honestly works to get on people's good side
My political chaos deck runs 50% political cards, and 50% random chaos nonsense like timesifter. No win conditions, just commander magic in its purest of forms.
Unless, come to the table with synergy to tilt the balance. Secret Rendezvous followed by Notion Thief is just gross; 3 mana for 5-6 cards is disgusting and is a rate that does on occasion see all the way up to cedh pods.
@@2ogres1cup50 if you want a 2nd deck similarish play a group hug deck with knowledge pool and eye of the storm thrown in lol. ramp everyone up then just watch fire works when either of those gets played.
Richard was playing devils advocate cuz he's got mixed feelings about the subject. He obviously doesn't personally care if people at his table use proxies
AND? Whats your point? If they cant afford to buy the .50 cent cards they shouldnt be trying to get into the game.....wizards isnt selling a game system like DnD...they are selling THE CARDS. THE CARDS ARE THE GAME. If you cant afford to play....why do you feel entitled to steal wizards intellectual property and play the game for free? There is a reason they make 20$ precons
@@dxdraiba7604The point is not about if proxying is ok or not. It is about that being ok with proxying curtain "expensive" cards, but not curtain "cheap" cards makes no sense Those are subjective measures. Every card that is more expensive to buy than to proxy has a valid reason to be proxied (again, not taking into acount if you want to be ok with proxying or not)
@@delathenleso5793 First, any table I am at proxies are more than welcome and you don't need a reason (such as ones people come up with like "I have the real one in a binder" or "I bought it and it's in the mail") and you can even proxy basic lands if you need to. Second, you are absolutely wrong about Richard's intentions and beliefs and you yourself are being a jerk for no reason. He's the one that codes the website and literally has an option to print proxies when you upload a deck list. The reason he does need to play devil's advocate is that in real life unfortunately, there are going to be people who don't agree with proxies. So while it would be nice that everyone was proxy friendly, it's important that players understand when you go to a game store you are likely to run into people who aren't, and they might have their reason whether we agree with them or not. Once you get to that point, they might refuse to play with you or you can refuse to play with them, but that point of discussion is that they should be more accepted, because they currently are not universally accepted. Changing the mind of the people who don't like proxy is going to take more of an argument than "you just hate poor people, don't you?". People have their reasons and it's important to know why if you want to get them to see your reasons for being pro-proxy.
I think Richard is still Salty that his Lu Xun, Scholar General commander that he played turn 1 with Jeweled Lotus got Swords to Plowshare and totally ruined his game which is why he is picking on Swords to Plowshare.
He really hates spot removal? Yeah its not the most powerful effect, but it is what you need when you need it. I only play a few but saying swords is bad is just wrong.
@@delathenleso5793 He picked the one creature in the game that can realistically kill you with a single etb there really is almost nothing that doesn't require a loop or other pieces already on the board to kill you with ETBs
Per proxying take: I had a friend give me their collection a decade+ ago. I actively played in that time. They wanted to play commander and I gave them a deck so they could play. I told them the price of the deck just so they wouldn't lose the deck but they let me know they wouldn't have gotten into the game of they had to spend $500 on a deck just to actually play at a table. Proxy a whole deck and have fun.
I dont think proxying should be a hot take in today’s economy for a casual format. Tbh my hot take is all formats should allow proxying nobody should be restricted from playing due to the amount of disposable income they have to spend on cards
@@ConstanceMists Play the player not their wallets, money shouldn't indicate "skill" of the game. I still hold myself to the "own at least a copy of whatever I proxy" but if my group all wanted to play cedh full duals, time twister, tabernacle decks I wouldn't care less if someone just scribbled that on the back of a basic
@@jamespatterson5644 even in sanctioned events proxies should be allowed, otherwise you’re not really going against the best players just the ones that can afford the best decks
I don’t use proxies, but I think they’re always acceptable. A game that’s pay to win isn’t worth playing. Otherwise the players could just compare bank accounts instead of pulling out their decks. On the topic of power creep because of proxies that should be covered by rule 0. If you don’t want fast mana, say so.
The pay to win excuse is such a cop out, did Yugi back down when he faced 3!!!! Blue Eyes White Dragons?! Literally the only other copy was torn to shreds. He had to expectation of assembling exodia. No he went in there and he tried to out strategize. If money alone mattered Foil Jund would be the best modern deck, and Lands would be the only legacy deck. In commander there’s so many powerful budget options available, if you don’t have the $$$ for a Tabernacle and a Mishra’s that doesn’t mean you can’t compete. .30¢ counter spell beats $900 reserved list staples every time. You don’t have to have a mana crypt or a grim monolith to exile a graveyard or swords to plowshare the biggest threat on the board. You don’t need fetch lands, shocks or OG duals to have a good mana base. I’m not against proxies, but the pay to win BS is ridiculous. Are you even playing to win? Or are you trying to force a bunch of 6+ mana spells with a 35 land deck? Do you know how to assess threats or do you ignore the storm player so you can get revenge on the Stax player that cost you two extra mana to cast your beloved Magma Vein? Do you cast a turn 2 winter orb for no reason?
@@tcurrid8059 I thoroughly enjoyed the Yugioh reference xD. I don’t disagree that there are cheap cards in the format that are powerful. Also you’re correct that actual skill is a factor in winning. The issue is the range of cards that you’d have for deck building. For instance if you’re limiting yourself when deck building to cards that are 1 dollar and bellow, there would be a huge chunk of cards you now don’t have access to. I don’t think people should have to limit their card pool when deck building, allowing for more powerful and coherent strategies. Deck building is a skill shouldn’t be limited due to income.
@@tcurrid8059 but narratively yugi is an underdog because Kiba has money. Of course both Kiba and yugi are good at the game but the audience roots for yugi because he’s at an inherent disadvantage. So while it’s not entirely pay to win it’s at least partially pay to win. Otherwise it wouldn’t narratively make sense.
@@tcurrid8059 that argument falls apart real fast in the context of the cards relevant. if someone has the money for 5 color goodness I don't care how you pilot your doubling season squirrel token deck is, 9/10 you're getting stomped. their dockside, manacrypt, mana vault, smothering tithe, mana drain, jeweled lotus og mox's+opal+amber againt you're 3 drop rocks is paying to win in that context im being a bit extreme with og mox but still, when 1 player has a $1000+ manabase against a precon, they paid to win. thats what we are talking about here. and yes they are getting revenge on me
I like how Richard kept saying sword was bad because it doesn’t stop hoof, but none of the cards he said he would rather run stop hoof type things either.
Also, I think the notion that giving your opponents resources is a downside in Commander is a 60-card competitive mindset. In a social game where you can develop alliances and make deals its 100% upside. Card draw, creatures, anything is fine. I've won game after letting my opponents tutor with Varragoth. It's sneaky good, and people are being short sighted in opposition to this effect.
I think the complication with this is that you have diminishing returns over time with this strategy. If you become perceived as a good political player, leveraging your alliances into wins, people become less likely to deal with you. If the strategy is getting you wins, it can increase your threat level and then undermine its own efficacy. I think this only applies when you have a consistent playgroup. I think politics are useful, but they only get you so far.
@@erikallen4923 That's all true, but I think it also depends on how you apply these ideas. If you advertise yourself as a political deck or player, people will put up social shields and be less likely to engage. Sharing tutors with Varragoth for example is good leverage, counteroffers in political battles and a blow softener so people are less mad when you attack them. What you're saying makes sense on paper, but we've seen on Clash that despite everybody knowing Richard's tricks, he still does very well and gets wins. I think the momentary advantage of somebody giving you something for free outweighs the potential that said opponent can leverage your favor into a win - at least that's how people interpret the facts in the moment. After all, you're in control of *how much favor you give*. But a savvy player will take whatever they're given and make good things happen with it regardless. I dont think that it's an infallible strategy by any means, just an underrated one which is viewed poorly by people with more competitive mindsets in a format which is social in nature.
@@TheSpunYarn you can't really take clash games ad a proof of concept, they have all admitted to not being a normal play group and doing plays they wouldn't do in other groups. Richard gets away with what he does because Crim always gunned for Tomer, Seth durdled, and Richard slow rolled to never seem to be the treat letting them all focus on each other. Iv been playing for a few years now and have never seen a pod play like this.
@@atk9989 I think they're a good example of a pod of friends who consistently play with each other. Definitely not evidence that sharing resources is powerful. But an example to point to of moments where it has been successful.
If you want to build decks that lead to interactive and interesting games, having efficient one-for-one answers is probably a good idea. You might be down a card, but put you and your playgroup further ahead in the progress of the game. It's like the Secret Rendevous of fun.
How do you plan on interactive and interesting games when the meta is "the first spell that actually resolves wins the game"? Isn't that the definition of non-interactive gameplay?
The funniest Stax piece I ever played was angel of jubilation. I was playing against a sac deck that didn’t have any removal that could kill my angel because his removal required his to sac creatures
I love that card! Also that story just enforces why everybody needs to play generically good removal spells in every deck they play, not just synergistic ones or on theme ones
Similar thing happened to me, but with yasharn. Dude at the table had an infernal grasp and sacrifice-based removal and couldnt do anything the whole game lol
@@ConstanceMists need? absolutely not. its commander, theme matters to a lot people more than winning slightly more often. should? yeah probably, and then I could play stax without everyone throwing a fit because they can't answer! what a world that would be to live in. not my fault 1 random card locks your entire deck.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 nah youre honestly just bad if you don’t play catch all removal and get locked out by a stax piece all game. Beast within, gen gift, anguished unmaking, whatever it is it defo isn’t gonna decrease your win% by not having “on theme” cards in place of those
@@ConstanceMists "you're bad" only applies if they aren't choosing to build a deck like that and are doing so in ignorance. I'm a stax player myself, I know the value. arguably spot removal is most effect itself in stax and taxes decks. when your 5 cmc is now 9 and I remove it with a 1 drop you're in pain. some people just wanna play ruxa with only flavor text creatures and forests. those players do need to some degree also just accept that they will almost always lose and not get mad that they chose to build a deck with no removal and then can't deal with hate. throws some politics cards in to get people to remove stuff for you is also fun. but again people can do w.e they like and if they have fun they didn't build a bad deck really. you seem to lean more towards cedh, as do I, but not everyone does.
I think this is the most ‘progressive’ the whole commander clash crew has ever done. Not only did they provide hot takes, but a lot of them had good support and a healthy discussion. Love it.
Dude Richard's argument against proxies is the exact opposite of progressive. His arguments were: - people who spent a lot of money into the cards may feel bad - magic is a luxury product... while he acknowledges tying functionality to it is a problem - otherwise how can people justify spending thousands on their collections? ... they can't that's why you should proxy - literally saying you accept proxies cause you are a good person ... so you are defending bad people - didn't have an argument against the difference in price for different printings and how a cheaper vesion didn't take away from the most expensive one. His only comeback was ... choice? It really sounded like a guy mad plebs were able to play with the same cards he has. That's basically the stance he was defending, specifically when he asked then why people are salty about it.
@@chebi97 He was playing devils advocate and being honest with why the topic is controversial. He personally doesn’t care about proxies, he’s just explaining the real psychological reasoning someone would feel upset about it. He’s simply pointing out that a lot of people take pride in their possessions and presenting the other side. It wouldn’t be a constructive discussion if everyone just said “It should be allowed” and didn’t acknowledge why it’s controversial for some people.
@@BeastlyP1g devils advocate isn't like a defense though, the only thing it actually does is validate a toxic opinion that should not be validate for the people who hold it. anti proxy players should be ignored entirely. he went on for FAAAR too long.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 I disagree. This is objectively an opinion based matter, just because the majority of us feel an opinion is “toxic” doesn’t mean they are wrong and we are right. Richard explaining the rational of… (let’s call them Whales) whales can’t make another opinion more or less justified. You can argue that opinion or view should be ignored, but I think that’s extremely irresponsible. There are really only two sides to the debate, pro-proxie or anti-proxie, with pro-proxie having different levels of support. If you don’t adequately acknowledge the other perspective a meaningful debate can’t occur. While again, Richard and ourselves may not agree with the whales position, it’s still important to discuss it. If you want to change a whales mind you sometimes need to approach the problem from a whales perspective.
Summary- Richard is simply explaining the basic defense of ‘Whales’ as well as providing some insight into why they feel the way they do. Without that it’s not really a debate.
I'm actually building a five color goad deck and the Hunted cycle is great in that deck with the ultimate goal of casting Mob Rule to attack with all the creatures you donated.
fight to the death might be a good half board wipe for that. also theres a squirrel token card and a snake token card that can generate everyone creatures, squirrel all at once where everyone can dump mana into it not just you and snake over time whenever people put lands into play. don't remember the names sorry. cool deck idea. theres also journey together? or something where you pay 1 and then everyone else (including you but why pay? make them) pays as much as they want them all players search and play x basic lands. so you ramp everyone let them play the big stuff and swipe it with thief effects after they get those goaded counters.
Richard: single target removal is bad Also Richard: if you play a card that stops my game plan its a feel bad so nobody should play drannith magistrate
There are some logical fallacies in this Hot Take. Same goes for Dockside Extortionist. Run more hatebear and single target removal. Problem solved. It's almost as if there is no problem lol.
The thing I always felt was the issue with hybrid mana is that it expands the cardpool too much. Lets say im runing a mardu deck, I would be able to play every red/black/white card + pretty much every hybrid except simic hybrids. I know some hybrid would have green or blue pips, but still, you are pretty much 5 colour as soon as you go 3 colour
Yea but how many hybrid cards are actually worth considering over stuff you’re already including? MAYBE you fit a few extra cards in but saying that you’re essentially 5c atp is nonsensical. There are only a handful of hybrid cards you’d want over what you’re normally running in 3c
I believe it was Richard's last point about proxies hit the nail on the head. So long as at parties involved know that proxies are going to be in the game ahead of time its perfect and there shouldn't be any disparity.
as long as theres not a power level disparity then it shouldn't matter knowing ahead of time about proxies specifically. frankly they should be normalized to the point that if we see a card thats over $30 we just assume it's very likely a proxy. (not that $30 should be the ceiling even thats too much imo)
Commander is a casual format, supposedly at least. I don't care if you have proxies when the entire point of the game is to have fun, not win prizes. So long as you don't try to trade or sell your proxies as the real thing, it shouldn't matter that you own them.
Yeah I'd like an instant speed green counterspell for my yisan deck. What if they reprinted all blue counterspell but in all other colors as well. Wouldn't that be fun in a 5 color deck having 5 different color swan songs or force of wills
Hot take: not every deck should be playable. If you can't make a deck good enough to be playable, either deal with having a bad deck, or make a new deck, don't complain that the format isn't good because your favorite deck is easily answerable.
I think stax pieces are fine in moderation but things that completely lock people out of the game are honestly just not game pieces I would ever feel good about casting. Like sure you can play winter orb but thats the equivalent of trying to play a game of pickup basketball where all your opponents shoes are glued to the floor. Is it really that fun for the people playing these kinds of cards…? Also the RC bans crap like Iona for the SAME EXACT REASON that people hate cards like Stasis and Vorinclex which just do the job better and dirtier. I love small light stax pieces like thalia just as a necessary means to slow my opponents down because this format is cracked, but stax as an archetype or a deck strategy is just lame period. Anyone can build a stax deck and make the game super unfun so the people who do play full stax and act like they got everyone good just annoy the crap out of me
@@ConstanceMists if you know you're against stax and have more than 1 deck then at least 1 should be able to knock some of their pieces out yeah? also as soon as any major stax piece is out everyone should be trying to kill the stax player. by playing stax we choose to be archenemy essentially, cause yeah the point is that my deck puts the table on a randomized clock and when time is up you can no longer meaningfully interact with me. stax vs control+aggro+super friends or w.e isn't jn the stax players favor btw, even if you turn 1 stasis.
On the whole: Swords is bad discussion: Situational is true in a game, but I found that there are more than enough targets you want in exile and not the Graveyard. Protean Hulk, Academy Rector, Kikki-Jikki Mirror Breaker are some of the examples or nearly any creature combo or enabler like Prime Speaker Vannifar. Or I actually only want this creature to go, like with Opposition Agent, Dauthi Voidwalker, Notion Thief or Drannith Magistrate. Also destroy is sometimes not enough against voltron and Exile Wraths are 6 Mana, so quite expensive compared to 1. Swords against a commander is either a tempoplay or a bad play, but mostly bad.
For me the stax debate is like playing mill against some people. Some people irrationally attack the light stax like they irrationally are afraid of mill. But also as the stax player you have to know that you will get heat for it too.
yeah. I love playing stax, but I'm afraid to even ask people if they will let me because of how absurdly angry some people get. I do accept being archenemy though, if you play stax your deck puts the rest of the table on a randomized clock and you probably know that. at a certain point you win the game by default because you can no longer be answered in any meaningful way, which is the point. I think stax makes a great archenemy, tells people you play it and invite them to take out their hatred of it against you 3v1 off the bat. surprise stax is a jerk move admittedly.
Mill is never a fair deck, because fair mill can't win. They know the deck inherently relies on one single turn that instantly wins teh game regardless of anything else that happened during the game. That's why people hate mill, not because their cards go to the grave.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 Fair Mill is a "feels bad" to play against but are realistically combo decks Because your opponent sees what they could've drawn (Especially since you mill from the top), and they get more and more sad to know what they could've done vs what they can't do rn. So in general you get the hate for making people feel bad and also for playing essentially combo decks. It's a double whammy of hate.
About the spot-removal take: I strongly disagree with Richard. (I still love you, but I think spot removal is needed for a healthy game) "You loose. You hope someone else wastes their removal" (34:47) That means, you rely on others to guarantee a healthy game, so you can continue playing. And you call that "wasting a spell"? I dont get it.....
biases create inconsistent views/opinions. we all have them. though Richard does seem particularly stubborn on this for some reason, I thought everyone made some good points against him.
Tomer was wrong about MaRo's statement on white. What Mark said about white is that they wanted to find a way white could get card advantage that felt white. Just like impulsive draw felt red. He ultimately lost that argument though. Also the hybrid design problem Mark said before was that making new hybrid cards aren't as fun because the most popular format won't use them the way they were intended.
I really wish that more commentary would be done on the difference between proxies and counterfeits. Seth touched on it (that they’re used interchangeably.)
On the proxies discussion: If you show up, face off against someone, and feel angry, bad, or upset that they are using proxies, because you spent money on your cards, then you have the problem. Anyone who bases their personal status and well-being upon feeling better than others is unhealthy, and you should seek a counselor and fix that issue. Basing your value on being better off than others is not an excuse to stop other players from enjoying and playing a game with pieces of cardboard.
One thing that’s important I think in all this is wizard is against them. My shop uses commander days to help get more promos etc in from wizards if anyone ever reported to wizards that we had games with proxies for what is an official thing the store could face problems. I’m 100% ok with proxies just make sure you use them in personal spaces and not in a shop if it will negatively impact them.
People are angry that their pay-to-win blinged out deck got outplayed by the budget player. It's more about "losing to the cheap deck", proxy or not, that get the whales upset.
It’s weird… the use of proxies to me reeks of entitlement. “I should get whatever I want, because I want it”. I don’t own any of the super expensive 4 horseman cards and probably won’t ever, so I just don’t build with them in mind
@Nick Hannah you’re not locked behind a play wall. You can still play the game just fine without The Abyss, Cradle, etc… you’re talking about optimization, so just optimize to the budget you have
@Nick Hannah I guess I should check here first. Is the description your using someone who is not looking to put any money into the game? Proxy nearly everything, I mean? I don’t really have much sympathy towards those people.
I think proxies are fine, but I generally do have a few caveats. One, you need a pretty clearly defined discussion about them, so your group doesn't just turn into cEDH (unless that's the goal ofc), and people don't get salty. Two I would prefer people use nice proxies, you can buy them for a few dollars online, it's an aesthetic thing, I like the tables to look nice, this one is less of a requirement but if you plan to proxy something long term i don't think it's too much of an ask. Three, if you really want to proxy something and you are either just testing it or really don't want to spend the money on a nice proxy, at least print out a copy of the card, don't write it in sharpie on a basic land or something,. This is for two reasons, magic is a complicated game and knowing the exact wordings on cards is important and I value clarity in my game. It both wastes time and is very easy to miss important things if someone has 3 different forests with black squiggles on them roughly where their creatures are and you have no idea what they are, and either have to ask or accidentally miss something important when you are making a decision in game. It takes a lot of mental energy to play a game of commander, and the games can last for a long time, especially if you are playing a deck with a ton of triggers or math, it's easy to forget what people played a turn or two ago, especially when board states get so out of hand that it's hard to tell at a glance what everything is, just makes it easier on everyone.
I'll second the draw/hand written proxies. It's fine if there's a couple that you haven't printed off properly or such but man it can suck if we have to pause a lot to check the actual card text.
I agree with having proper text for clarity the anesthetic thing i hear so much but just don't agree with at all. printing up a copied oracle text is definitely a minimum courtesy if you have access to a printer though not everyone does.
Lmao same Seth is always the most agreeable with his opinions in these videos, this shit shocked me. It felt like watching a character in a show I really like pulling a face-heel turn
For the Hybrid arguement: Hybrid while per rules count as "or" and not "both" doesn't change that anything that tutors a specific color of card can tutor and grab hybrid cards. Conflux is the card that displays this function perfectly and hybrid and multicolored cards can count as any of the 1 individual colors it has as a symbol in the CMC. If they can be treated the same as tutors, then they should treated the same a multicolor cards in commander. Intended functionality of the mechanic really doesn't matter here since this isn't an official format.
not sure i agree that 1 should mean the other either way. as you said its not official so we should just choose whatever the most people want. democracy and all that.
Honestly, if my lgs would start a printing service were you could order the printing of tiny rectangle immages that are "totaly definitly not mtg cards", I would love that and buy them from them. The concept that a company can make a game based on loot boxes with game pieces that have artificially inflated values, and then also have a monopoly on that is insane.
Yo, 1000% this episode was great, and the hottest take is absolutely Seth in the beginning. The format isn't holy and a better world is possible. Commander is the only format where hybrid mana doesn't work as intended, and a lot of the misconception about it come from commander being the most popular format and teaching people those misconceptions. But whether it's hybrid, wishes, etc. We SHOULD be pushing to make the format better!
Looks like Richard is still pretty salty about his turn 1 commander with jeweled lotus getting plowed from Crim. That was a stupid take rather than a hot take.
Creatures are still relevant enough the Swords continues to be worth it (as a one of). That said, I agree that you do need to diversify your removal options. I would play Swords but I would also run Generous Gift, Hour of Revelation, Farewell, March ooWL. Even better is removal stapled on a threat like Solitude, Angel of Serenity, and Cavalier of Dawn. If your format is so combo heavy you should lean more on countermagic, anyway.
Talking about proxies, I actually think there is a pretty big downside to using them. When you can proxy any card, people often only pick the best most powerful cards. this leaves a lot of the more unique and cool, but less powerful, cards in this weird realm where they will never be played. I think the bigger issue here is when everyone at the table runs extremely powerful decks. Thats what really prices people out of the format. I think everyone should have a range of power in their decks so that people dont HAVE to proxy to keep up.
@WonkyWombat I can see where your coming from on this, but I personally think the way you use them is the minority instead of the majority. In my experience I've only ever seen it used to make decks more powerful and generic by including more expensive staples. I think that having budget be a concern makes decks more creative and unique, because you can't afford to run the generically good staples. Instead you have to find unique cards that are high synergy.
problem is. I dont want to play a unique craetive lovely deck. I wanna play a powerlevel apropiate deck that functions and always does what I want it to do.
I think a big takeaway for the "benefit an opponent too" cards like Secret Rendezvous for example, is that there's often a person that's behind in a game, whether its land drops or low hand size, handful of dead.drops etc, you're increasing their chances to play their cards.have fun too when they otherwise couldnt because of their game state. I think it dramatically increases the fun when everyone on the table were able to play cool things.
Geniuinely, XYZ's take really made me rethink the entirety of how I build my decks with his enlightened message. On the other hand, xyz may be the stupidest ever magic player who should have his DCI number revoked for being so misinformed about how the game works.
I cannot believe this "hot take" that Swords to Plowshares, the BEST removal in the game, is not good enough in this 2022 Super-fast-everything-needs-to-be-removed format that Richard is talking about. Not sure you are going to leave 3 mana up for Generous Gift the whole game to answer the Tergrids of the world. Commanders are creatures 99% of the time... my god...
I think the issue with using Commanders as an argument in favor of creature-only single target removal, is that Commanders are the only creatures in the game (aside from Amonkhet Gods) that your opponents will have access to after you remove them. You can't effectively *remove* a Commander from the game with any spell. If somebody is playing Tergrid against you and you remove her, you're still getting your hand ripped apart and your stuff still gets sacrificed, so the impact of removing her is almost negligible imo
@@TheSpunYarn unless of course she comes down early (fast mana and a swamp or two and see her on turn 2 or 3) and that one mana swords sends her back to the command zone and not coming around again for several turns. seems efficient to me.
Counterpoint to the hybrid mana hot take: if a hybrid symbol should be counted as either/or one of the two colors when determining the color identity in the 99, then the same should be true for commanders. So for example if you're trying to make a Oona Deck you can make it mono blue or mono black, but not Dimir. Is that cool?
Nah, I don’t really think so, your Commander’s Color identity is for determining what can go in your deck, while cards in the 99 use their identity to determine if THEY can go in your deck, so if you’re using Oona your colour identity is “You may include any blue or black color identity cards in your deck.” Whereas hybrid cards in the 99 are “This card’s Color identity is blue or black” They’re both “or”, but Commander CI is inclusive. Or, to make it even simpler, you could just word the whole thing as “You MAY treat this card as blue or black for the purposes of Color identity”. Just making it a may allows you to choose “blue and black” for your commander but “Blue or black” for cards in the 99.
@@Qazplm601MC The whole point is to change how CI is computed for hybrid cards, so they're not both colors simultaneously, but only either one of them, and they can fit in monocolored decks. For example, Oona's CI would be either blue or black but not both at the same time. An important observation is that color identity is the same whether the card is a commander or not, so Oona's CI could not be considered both colors even in the command zone: you would still have to choose either blue or black and build a monocolored deck accordingly. This said, of course my comment was a provocation, you can change the rules in any way that better suits your ideas for the game. You could decide that CI has to be computed in a different way for commanders. Heck you can even decide that every single hybrid mana symbol can be considered separately as either one of the colors, so the first symbol in oona's mc is black and the others are blue when using it as a commander (so it's dimir), but they are all blue or black if you want to put her in the 99 of a monocolored deck. (Weirdly enough you couldn't do this for Rosheen Meanderer because she has only one hybrid mana symbol, so it could not be both red and green even in this scenario). But yeah, if you want to keep it simple, you kinda have to do as I described.
100% with Tomer here. Proxys made my playgroup way more interesting from a gameplay perspective. And screw crybabies, they knew proxies existed before they bought their cards.
Pay to win isn’t fun. Look at how popular games like League are. Vs backlash that pay to win games get. How do you stay friends with someone if all you want to do is stunt on them because they are poorer than you?
@@egananders7318 league is not a good example as there are plenty of pay to win shenanigans that goes on in it especially the "coincidental" nerfing or buffing a champion because a skin comes out for them or the one they counter This happens way to often for it to be considered a coincidence even if Riot themselves deny this
I spoke to a member of the CAG about the hybrid mana issue, they agreed that things like manamorphose make sense for either colour, but with things like reaper king, it makes no sense, since that is definitely a 5 colour card, but it would be able to go in any deck, as its colourless and 5 colour under the other hybrid mana rule.
Good point. I was thinking about cards the new three colored legendries from New Capenna (Ognis, Evelyn, Tolus, Jinnie & Rigo) and whether or not they should be allowed in their mono colored slots.
@@gmpd4191 it isnt a straw man, since I'm not misrepresenting any argument. I'm literally reciting what I was told. It also isn't about where the card would be played, it's about the precedent, and the line was drawn on the side of being more limiting, rather than more open. Reaper King was just an example too, what about boros reckoner, that is a card that could be played in mono red or mono white if you were allowing the other style of rules for hybrid cards, when it is explicitly a boros card.
That kind of cropped up in my mind - under this change, you could technically play Evelyn in any black deck, right? And that includes Edgar Markov, who certainly does not need the buff that she could provide. Right now there's a divide between the Mardu aggro flavor that Edgar goes for and the steal-your-stuff angle Evelyn uses, but due to current rules you can't mash the two together. And that's a good thing, in my opinion. Change it so that she can be considered mono-black... is that good for the format?
@@1AlasBabylon I mean he already steals all your shit with that one vampire that taps others to steal 1 more card not going to do much eminence is just a dumb mechanic and should be banned
Of course proxies are a rule zero conversation. Richard clearly explained why some people will feel bad if they find out during the match. For me I am glad to play against anyone.
My only issue with proxies is seeing a bunch of 3-4K cards in someone’s deck I mean sure workshop is legal but most people aren’t playing the real card
i would watch tomer talking about and upgrading commander cube! i really like cube, it's one of the best ways to experience magic. you set the rules, you decide on the contents, wotc provides the cards.
As for the color identity and hybrid mana... it is honestly just an aesthetic thing for me, if someone is playing a mono-red deck, I don't want to see a green card, it messes with the solid color. I know this is a dumb reason, but even if the rules changed I would probably still build my decks that way.
"I made an absolutely ret@rded choice and took out tens of thousands of dollars in loans for a worthless degree and I want the taxpayer to pay for it!" Lmao no. Play all the proxies you want, I respect WotC as much as I do idiots that don't know how loans work: 0.
The arguement about proxies only exists nowadays because a lot of new players don't understand the spirit of EDH/Commander. You're supposed to look at your collection and put a commander deck together, not theory craft or net deck a commander deck and assemble it. A lot of that aspect of EDH/Commander seems to be getting lost over time. This is supposed to be a side format so that cards in your collection don't just sit there collecting dust after they rotate out of more active formats.
19:06 board wipes are good in aggro decks 27:38 swords to plowshares is trash 39:45 proxies are good 1:05:12 sol ring should be banned 1:10:50 light stax is ok 1:18:21 normalize conceding 1:19:38 giving your opponents stuff is good and should be banned
My gripe about hybrid mana symbols being used in mono colored decks is that it completely destroys color identity. Why should I be able to play Zirda in a mono-white blink deck, but I can't use momentary blink? Momentary blink in every format other than commander is a mono-white card, the blue mana on it isn't required to cast it unless you're playing it from your graveyard. A hybrid card IS BOTH COLORS, Zirda can be converted or destroyed with hydroblast. In order to work properly with color identity, the rules of hybrid mana would have to functionally change so that you can declare the color of the spell on the stack.
I feel like the color pie is just forgotten until they start looking at white. Green and blue definitely get to ignore the color pie whenever they want and in every set. Red and black have started to mess around outside their pie slices as well. Just do away with it, or actually stick with it for every color
48:00 you'd tell them "tough"? No, tough for you. The person proxying isnt the one who decides if proxies are ok to use. You're not entitled to those cards. Don't play a card that you dont own if you're gonna have a crappy attitude about it. Buy the cards. If you dont want to spend the money, then tough. If you want to play a cheaper version of those cards, you can use the already printed and existing weaker versions of those cards. If you're not ok with that, then that's a you problem. The foil argument and expensive brainstorm vs the 25 cent brainstorm is a bad comparison because you still paid for and own the brainstorm, regardless of the quality.
The argument that "artifacts do everything" doesn't work in the case of graveyard hate because the trade off for using an artifact card to go outside of your colour pie is that it will cost 2-3 more mana than normal. There is many 0 and 1 mana artifacts that affect graveyards so I agree with Seth on this that graveyard hate is universal. Also Dockside as a hypothetical hybrid card makes zero sense. Treasure is a rainbow ability so literally the only thing tying it to red is being a goblin.
Heck, the "artifacts can do anything" argument isn't applicable imho when you have *colorless lands* that can do it. On another note, people don't respect/play Scavenger Grounds enough in EDH.
On the topic of Proxies I find that MOST people run proxies for a couple reasons. They're either doing what Crim stated and running multiple copies of a card they already own. Trying out a new deck and running cards you want to try out but want a placeholder. OR, proxying the super expensive cards (dual lands, moxes, etc). Where I find the argument gets salty is when you see someone running a cEDH-powered deck with proxies in a casual pod or wanting to go to a tournament setting.
I think the reason making a card that is hybrid mana but can be played in a solo color rather than just making that color mono is that it signals that this not something to expect from this color. This is a rare exception. Once you print it in a mono-color it just automatically is now part of the pie. Once it starts appearing there it becomes harder to justify not adding more.
As a Golgari player I hate Rest In Peace and the Leyline that turns off graveyards. But, that's the main reason I run a lot of enchantment removal. Yeah it's annoying, but it forces you to build better interactive decks. The same can be said for any stax piece. Run removal. Be better able to interact with threats. The line for me is a deck that is all stax which doesn't have a clear win-con. I play a Queen Marchesa Monarch deck which taxes my opponents, but has clear win cons through monarch damage effects and even a couple of alternate win cons like Approach.
Regarding the Proxy topic, I am a bit againts it. I like the geatering part of the game, to build and play a deck with cards you have collected. To make it the best you can. But if min maxing is your goal, go for proxys.
After Commander Legends 1 was released I built a commander cube initially based on the set and my personal collection. I've since taken apart every commander deck I own and purchased many new cards all to fuel the cube, and its a ton of fun. Its been especially great because of my friend group I was the only one willing to invest as much as necessary to play the format, which caused others to fall behind and stop playing. However, this cube has allowed me to invest and collect as much as I want to while creating an environment for all my friends to enjoy too.
Completely loved this chat - Your proxy chunk was damn spicy and ties into the commander cube discussion nicely. Its damn close to touching on what I feel is the remedy to magic's bad economic formats too - CUBE is now the ONLY format - just not a commander format 🌶
On the topic of hybrid, I think the rules make sense, but I also think that there is room for change, I wouldn't be pissed if the change happens. But I do think that people are using bad reasoning to try to justify them wanting to change the rules. Kitchen Finks is not a mono white card, it can be cast with either white mana or green and that's a big difference. If you reveal it with Niv Mizzet Reborn, you can add it to your hand, your command tower taps for W or G if Rhys is your commander. Every rule of the game recognizes them as multicolored, the only "either/or" part in the cards is the casting requirement. Also, "hybrid doesn't work the same as in other formats" is bs, hybrid works exactly the same, the difference is the deck building restriction (i.e. the identity of the format). The only solid argument for changing the rule is simply because people want to change it (and it might be reason enough!)
Proxying is like buying a card on Arena instead of MTGO, you get the same functionality and gameplay but no return. Buying real cards allow you to gain a return if you wish to ever sell it and if you have no intention of selling it you have gained a treasured collectors item. additionally the more people playing the game the more those real cards end up being worth so at the macro scale it is advantageous to the people buying the real cards. I want to play with more people and I want people playing more decks, proxies enable that. It makes my gameplay experience more fun and varied which is a far better quality of life return for me then if someone stops showing up because they can't compete or are tired of playing their commander deck and are working on making a new one (which could take months). Trends also show that once a player finds a deck/archatype they love they will take the time to legitimize it. If you ever have power level concerns make sure they are stated and understood right out of the gate. This is a universal best practice and should apply to everyone.
You hit this topic right on the head and it was really refreshing to hear discussion beyond the usual sticking points of “but then people will play all the busted cards” and “it makes the players who spent hundreds of dollars feel ripped off”. The idea that proxies are inherently not worth money is a two way street, you can’t invest in proxies and then feel the joy of selling a busted card you got out of a pack or the feeling of watching a card you got early climb ever higher in value. Because of course never forget these aren’t counterfeits we are talking about, no genuine proxy player is trying to scam or cheat by printing there own magic cards. So ya really liked what you were saying hear, your comment should be way more visible.
People hating on Stax is just people salty that an entire archetype exists. Some say the same about decks with counterspells. It's a game and you should be prepared to play with all the pieces. I don't ask opponent's to remove their bishop before chess...
Goldfish crew, I'll be bringing my oathbreaker cube to Richmond. Same playtime as a regular commander game 1-1.5 hrs total (incl draft). Legacy power level.
On the proxy front, I remember playing at a casual club in college and my opponent had a fully proxied modern Jund deck against my $50 budget infect deck that I owned. And I remember getting annoyed at him back then over proxying to jump straight to the highest power level deck when I was much more willing to accept I only had so much money and only play what I could afford. Now that I am better off and can afford to buy expensive decks I find myself drawn to proxy dual lands and power for a cube I want to build. I think I feel like my competitive 60 card decks are more meaningful to me and I want the person across from me to have put the same thought and care into the deck as I have, while something I know is casual I don't care if they just did whats most powerful. Proxying just to net-deck still feels wrong, but I don't dislike the idea of proxies as much as I used to
The thing that drives me up a wall with the color identity stuff is how yes, it’s one thing to maintain things that have been working well and fine for years but color identity rulings still remain some of the must unintuitive messes in commander. The average newcomer doesn’t look at a card like Emiel the Blessed and will assume they’re a gold/multicolor card. Everything about that cycles shows the cards functions SPECIFICALLY in 1 color and can’t function in the other without playing 2 color (so Emiel can’t be played in an all green deck anyway because it costs white to cast) but thanks to the color identity police, no you can not put the unicorn that’s essentially a white card all except a hybrid cost ability in the 99 of a white commander deck. It’s nonsense.
@@CheeseWedge056 rule 0 dumb and the biggest problem with commander they many cases where it not even an option using that to try and solve ever issue just so annoying
@@Alkhemia8 I kinda agree, like are you supposed to have a 30 minute discussion on all 30 things everyone says to just rule 0 every time you go to your LGS?
@@atk9989 The point where rule 0 is useful is the point where the rule serves no purpose my group I play with a lot we can just be like "hey I want to play with this Tranformer silver boarder card as my commander and what not can I" "sure w/e" we tell them we have a group banlist + the base banlist but otherwise we just play anything with in reason
I have never won when I got a Turn 1 Sol Ring (let alone Sol Ring into a Signet). I always become the Archenemy and am put into a 3 on 1 scenario. In my playgroup, this is very much how it always goes. Even at local stores, pretty much always true. The only time I see it win games is when you go to conventions and people are playing their "Definitely a 7" but is secretly a CEDH deck. Pop off on turn 1 and run away with the game by turn 2 or 3.
48:00 seen this scenario, what do you guys think. Back at my old LGS there was a massive verbal fight over a proxied Imperial Seal. The main argument for the guy that was against it was that this is a collectable card game. The collection aspect is part of it. So if you haven't collected that card, you can't use it. He said it was similar to using a cheat code to get a better weapon in a video game. He said that since commander is just for fun, you have to use real cards. Since there is no reason to optimize your deck in this format just use what you have
anyone against proxies for any reason can kick rocks. its a forced scarcity by a greedy company, its arguably more ethical to proxy litterlally your entire deck than even use what wizards prints and then price gouges people for. especially with all the market manipulating by finance assholes.
Inserting my random 2 cents. Hybrid Mana 9:09 Right here pretty much the reason the hybrid mana rule exists. Sure it’d be nice to have graveyard hate and tutor hate in Momo blue or etc. cases but the card is definitely a Blue/Black flavored card. Like why play the artifact graveyard hate that’s less good when you could play Ashiok. Also it’s more of a future proofing rule I think and creativity isn’t limited that much by keeping people from hybrid mana cards. Boardwipes in agro decks Agreed always pack some board wipes. Like maybe minimum 3-4 for me anyways. In almost any deck I can make besides maybe some meme decks. Too much spot creature removal Heck no, there are way too many kill on sight creatures/commanders now a days and need to be stopped immediately at instant speed. Like swapping my 1-3 mana instant speed removal to wait for a board wipe instead is just bad. I’d say killing someone’s commander also has just become a method of slowing down people by a turn or two. Proxies Nothing wrong with them I think. Just don’t go crazy like if the group is casual don’t just go nuts with mana crypt, CEDH staples, etc in all your decks. Especially since prices have gone crazy and there are so many cards releasing that are just auto upgrades in decks. End of the day just talk with the group. Like I think part of the fun is getting those niche cheap cards and getting some fun with them over the crazy cards. I guess for the longest time I hated really lazy proxies like just a basic land with the card it’s supposed to be written on it. On another note I feel like they were on this topic too long. Sol Ring banned If so you gotta ban the other fast rocks too then you probably wind up with green having an advantage with their 1 mana dorks, land enchants, or other stuff. Like if you want to ban Sol ring for fast mana you gotta take an axe to ALL the fast mana. Light Stax I don’t think there is anything really wrong with stax at all, just maybe be ready for the board to dislike you and don’t let that be your only deck since people will not want to play after awhile. Giving opponents stuff = Good Fun for casual and really until you get to the higher levels of power you don’t need to worry about it. Commander cube Yes it’s fun. Just hard to set up I think.
Proxies: the reason why we play the game is to collect cards and from that collection build a deck. This is not poker the cards you have matter for deck building. I think the biggest problem is that people watch shows like this and think that if they don't have the most optimized deck then their deck is trash. A 3 power deck can beat a 8 because this is a multiplayer format. The deck u build day one will not be the same deck 2 years from now. The cards you have have to matter or what is the point of collecting. If you proxy everything is stifles deckbuilding because every deck has the same cards red deck dockside, token deck doubling season, blue deck force of will, manna drain ect. It sucks you can't play those cards there are 1,000s of alternatives that are a little less good.
@WonkyWombat So i have a question if you are not proxying expensive staples what cards are you proxying? If you are not including those expensive cards why are you proxying?
I'm actual with Crim that the Color Pie is dead/broken. While Wotc may try to enforce it for Red, white, and to an extent blue. It has allowed Green and to an lesser extent black do whatever it wants to do. Like what can't Green do? Green can now have synergistic decks that work with Artifacts. It has Card Draw, Ramp (both permanent and temporary thanks to treasure), efficient removal (Creature, Artifact, Enchantment, and Planeswalker), recursion, tutors, Synergistic Decks with Enchantments, superior creatures, Sacrifice decks, token decks, counters decks, and etc etc etc. Meanwhile, Red can't efficiently deal with Planeswalkers, has no enchantment removal (except Chaos Warp and that's a color break), impulse drawing while yes is card advantage is still inferior to actually drawing the cards, Red really doesn't reliable tutors (unless dealing with Goblins), the creature removal is inefficient for Commander, and the same goes for Planeswalker removal. Plus Red suffers a bit of an identity problem in Commander. Each of the other colors do things so much better than Red. Like Black and White are the top recursion colors, Green and Blue for card draw, Blue and White for Artifact support, Green and White for Enchantments, and etc.
The thing with proxies is that we have to remember this is a casual format. I understand official tournament formats not allowing them, but this is a casual format where many people are introduced to the game. I think proxies aren't inherently bad in edh, every playgroup should agree on power level and then allow anyone to make their decks fit that level the way they want/can. If you want to play budget you can always tell your group you'd like to have a budget format going so that everyone has their high level proxied deck, their mid level deck with few proxies they're trying to buy and their budget deck they actually own
My personal preference is that you should at least own one copy of the card unless you're playing edh where entire decks require cards from the reserve list and other things like mana crypts. It might be an unpopular opinion but I think it's kind of lame to proxy something like a shock land or even a doubling season for casual play unless you already have one and just need it in multiple decks. Since it's a singleton format I've always thought why bother with more than one copy of any given card but I kinda think you should have at least the one real card as a general rule.
@@Feyamius because be all rights you could just switch that ONE card out from one deck to the other this just takes time and we don't want to do that. The owning one card still give mtg the incentive to make more cards and keep going.
@@Thunderkeg the thing with what you say about the shockland or the doubling season is that we are assuming what is expensive and what isn't when this is entirely dependant on each person. I'm starting to play after a 10 year hiatus in which I had to sell all my cards because I was moving to a different country. One 3 color deck requires 3 shock lands. If want a doubling season, or a smothering tithe or a rhystic study it adds up. It's a lot of money, we can't compare a new player to a person with a huge collection they've made over the years. Yeah, a shock land sounds like nothing when you have plenty laying around or at least something to trade for, but we can't assume what is cheap and what isn't. I live in Latin America and we've discussed what we consider to be an expensive card and I've heard answers range from $100 to $50 and some people even consider a $2 card to be expensive when you can actually buy food to get by through the weekend. We don't care if you proxy a 25 cents card to try it out before buying it, maybe you're trying 10 and those $2.5 is relevant enough not to buy before trying.
@@carloszarraga1990 then you buy the cards as you can and run other options in the meantime. To keep it relevant to the podcast it's partly why it's so weird to hear Tomer go on and on about restrictions breeding creativity and then say everyone should be able to proxy whatever cards they want and doesn't see how those statements run contrary to each other. If you can't afford the cards you simply use cards you have and can afford and replace them when you can. That's how TCGs have always been. I understand reserve list cards more because thats a time gate you can't get around but anything else is subject to being reprinted and they do reprint things all the time so proxying tons of cards just because you are impatient and mad at wizards reprint policy is not a good reason. In personal playgroups none of these rules matter, the rules are for casual pick up games and I'd be really pissed if I got put into a pod at an LGS where people had proxied their decks and I hadn't. Having proxies be ok as a general rule instead of being ok if your playgroup says so causes these kinds of clashes in casual play that don't happen otherwise.
I feel like hybrid mana done well is perfectly fine to consider as either color for color identity. Like, isn't Ashiok not feeling right as mono blue more of a design fault of WotC not doing a great job of making it feel 1UU not a problem with it being hybrid mana?
Here to remind everyone to use print services to make high quality proxies (use a different back to avoid the counterfeit issue) and stop giving wotc money because their products are not worth what they charge.
The proxy debate has always been hot, but lately it’s a wild fire. Proxies aren’t devaluing the real cards and I’m not sure why people get so bent about them. IMO there’s only 1 place proxies are 100% no and that’s sanctioned competitive REL for prize / money. Which I fully agree with. Everything else casual should be house rule, TO decision, playgroup vote / decision. I don’t play proxies as I have the majority of old / RL cards from my youth but I have no issue with people using them.
My hot take: Path to exile is amazing in mono white. Kill a creature, turn on your catch up ramp. Or, use it like a sacrifice spell. One white, as an additional cost, exile a creature you control. Get a plains. That's pretty sweet.
1.: You can build any power lvl deck (except cedh) with a reasonable amount of money (like yuriko, etc.). 2.: A person who is invested into this game won´t proxy everything (collector mindset) 3.: A person who isn´t invested and "overproxyd", can´t play their deck properly and will probably be talked to or think about how they approached this game. 4.: If you wanna play a casual game and shy away by the prices of some overpriced powerful cards, didn´t you want to play competitive in reallity? 5.: Building up a collection of cards to play with, is a limititation and a goal in itself, there has to be some benefit to it. Try to think of anything you really wanted and then assume everyone could just have it for free.... Where did the euphoria get lost? 6.: To make my point more specific: making everything affordable seems nice, but would make "Commander" pretty fast a competitive format with even harder and more unfun rule 0 debates. I think, we often don´t realize, that good prohibitions are important to fuel our communal engines. (I have no problem with anyone using proxys btw, absolutely fine on my end... reasoning in point 2 and 3) Just my hot takes :)
On color identity: I do find it a bit weird that the fetch-lands are not given color identities. I know why, but it feels weird. They even have colors in their text-box backgrounds! Also, some cards like Reality Twist and Naked Singularity shouldn’t count as 5-color just because they have the color symbols.
Why aren't Terramiphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds 5 color? Or it the text box color is important, why not Prismatic Vista? Because it calls out a basic land type? What about the Panoramas? Farseek? Why do people look to carve out a hole for *specifically and only* the Onslaught/Zendijar fetches? Just because they're powerful and popular?
@@DarthChocolate15 Because they are literally the other colors. Terramorphic expanse is grey. Prismatic Vista is gold. Scalding Tarn is blue and red. Which ones make sense to be in a Azorius deck? For an example, consider a completely new player picking up commander. You drop that Scalding Tarn in your Azorius deck and they go "wait, why can you have that red card?". To me, saying "But it's actually colorless according to the color identity because the mana symbols don't explicitly show up!" looks like an excuse to run powerful cards.
@@Tvboy777 meeeeeeh I probably wouldn’t change the rules. Like I said, it feels a bit weird, but not enough that it’d be worth the trouble to change it.
@@AnthonyScolaro5 Gold represents multicolored, some I'm not sure why that gets a pass in a monocolored deck, though I understand your point in general. But I don't know. Wizards printed them with a card back that doesn't actually reflect on the game rules at all. Not sure that's a good basis for rule handling. And honestly I think it's less confusing for new players than something like an Avacyn's Pilgrim not being legal in a mono green deck (and don't even get started on extort).
The issue with RiP is the combination of a one-time wipe that can't be stopped *and* the passive effect. Leyline of the void has the static, but doesn't remove what you already have and you know you have to deal with it before using the yard. Other hate doesn't set you back permanently (grafdigger's cage) or is one-shot (crypt, lantern, etc). Also, the ETB trigger is essentially impossible to stop except in blue, which is kind of frustrating.
Tomer, I'm trying to build a commander cube too but I'm going to wait until commander legends 2 to release so I can put those cards into my cube. Would you be interested in making a video on your thoughts and process on making a commander cube? Would love to hear your thoughts/ideas!
As an actual reason, I know more people who would be confused if hybrid mana didn't work the way it currently does as most people I knows mindset is "oh it has this color on it, so it can go only in decks with that color" so I don't really know why it is confusing. From a rules reason, the cards are actually both colors.
@@soren1803 Sure, but that is not a visual thing on the card when they pick it up, and learners of a game or format respond almost always first to visual things.
Proxies tend to let people experiment and later buy their cards. However, this experimentation is usually either laughably bad or heavy power creep. Especially at tables where multiple people start proxying. The solution is to assume either 1. These are all non-games. 2. Bring your highpower/cedh deck againsg it. 3. Balance your decks based on total cost. Sub $100 decks, below $250 and below $400 and then above $400. This would reduce how much spike especially from price the deck would be. If your decks are within a similar price, its not the money/proxies, its the deck building/skills.
i mean 21 commander damage is a fun story that tends to interest new players. elder dragon highlander the elder dragons were 7/7's so three hits by one would make someone lose as an alternate win con.
"You're up against four people..." -- Tomer including himself as his own (hardest) opponent.
You can trust no one, not even yourself.
Trust nobody, not even yourself.
I would like that comment (truth?) even more if that were possible 😂
in a pot of 4 you're always up against four people, not just tomer.
look at our clash-crew:
crim fights mtgo,
phil draws sol ring and aggro,
seth somehow durdles in boros,
richard is in an abusive relationship with random birds,
tomer fights salt and sequencing.
@@ddublu “Richard is in an abusive relationship with some random birds” I hope their children are safe
“I have a proxied cedh deck and an $8000 kaldra deck”
-Tomer on the duality of man
Crim: "I run 11 board wipes"
I think we learned where his mana troubles are coming from
He even admitted under his breath that he could just remove lands to fit more in 😂
I have 1 deck with 11 board wipes in it and that's my Atla eldrazi/blightsteel/worldslayer turbo deck where they can trigger Atla or clear the board for an easy hit.
But I do also have a Zurgo helmsmasher deck that has 30 board wipes.
My jaw dropped when he said that
This is why people are starting to run completely non-permanent combo based win-cons.
You don't need mana for Sunscour!
I play in a pod of close friends. I started to get more into commander and buy better cards to improve my deck. My pod couldn't keep up with some of the decks and they werent in a place to sink the money like i am. I was unable to play my newer tunned decks and no we were collectivly having less fun.
One day i suggested they proxy cards into decks they wanted to build for missing cards. It was the best thing. We resurged and play so much more now. Proxies are the best way to level a game when players have different financial situations but all share a love for MTG
When you combine the rising cost of many commander cards with some people's current financial statuses, proxies are one of the things that are keeping me in the game at all. Being able to keep your deck forever doesn't matter when your deck becomes so overshadowed by some of these new cards being so pushed. I'm lucky to have been playing for a while and have a decent sized collection to build decks from, but sudden emergencies and swelling financial responsibilities have prevented me from being able to 'keep up' with the new stuff.
My group has done $ limits. Like, we set a $30 limit and everyone creates a new deck. Or a $75 one to loosen it up.
Yeah proxies are the best way to play... why spend a crapload of money on a casual game?
Yeah, the thing they missed with the envying shortcuts, pay-to-win thing, was that this kind of situation should never come up. You discuss it with your play group, and you set the rules. like "don't proxy duals" or something that you all agree to. and when you play with randoms, don't use proxied cards. easy as that.
Or since you have multiple decks you could just not whale on all of them instead of making everyone work around you.
I always appreciate Richard's contributions to the podcast. I think many discussions would be very one-sided without his input. He's not being contrarian - they are thoughtful points.
The crew is good. A lot of conflicting opinions, and therefore potential discussion, arise from a grixis player, a mono-white player, a budget player, and a player who never pays the one for rhystic study
the devil's advocate stuff seems unnecessary, it really only servers to give validation to views that should not be validated. other than that he's great, but because of that he's the only one I ever find myself getting actively annoyed with things he's saying but then saying he doesn't agree/believe.
for instance I think he harped on proxies for far to long.
Richard has been the MVP on the main podcast forever, so it wouldn't surprise me if he's the MVP on this one too.
He is a contrarian and often has a lot of genuinely deranged takes
But this is a good thing!!!! He’s like the podcast villain, without conflict it would just be everyone agreeing which would be lame
Richard- Thoughtful points
Also Richard- “You wouldn’t download a Lamborghini”
I have some foiled out decks and it would have absolutely zero impact on my enjoyment to know all of my opponents' decks were proxied. I did it because I liked it, but I'm here to chill and play games with my friends first and foremost. I want them to enjoy the game *and* feel comfortable about their personal finances.
I think Richard has a good point about single target removal but i value it more because when you have a Swords in hand, you don’t have to fire it off at the first creature to hit the board. Even if your opponent plays something really scary, 2/3 of the time they will use it against one of your opponents. The advantage single target removal has over sweepers is that you can wait till the last possible second to fire it off and take the most advantage of your opponents threats
Even with something like Craterhoof, your opponent is usually trying to be precise with the math to kill all 3 of you, so if you Swords one of the creatures sent your way (especially if there is just one creature coming your way) you benefit immensely
Plus the political aspect: "If you attack me your creature will die. Are you sure you don't want to attack someone else?" or "Player A, I can save you from player B's attack. What cna you do for me?"
i still think swords is an auto include. richards point just kept coming back to “instead just generous gift or teferis protection”. Well you play all 3…thats not really a solid point.
no, it wont help with a dockside etb but neither will generous gift. in fact swords will exile it and prevent its loops whereas gift will let them recur it. ive never once had a swords in hand and not feel great. its offensive, defensive, and can break combos and loops
@@joe2125 yep, a buddy of mine plays a bruna deck, I love having path or swords in hand early game because it means I'm never worried about him. And at my LGS it's pretty casual with not alot of combo decks. So this whole time was going off I was wondering what he was talking about because it sounded like he was talking about CEDH or very boarderline.
There's an overemphasis on going net-negative on cards. Single target removal really does answer the threat when you need to while still giving you enough mana to actually play your game/not nuking your own board in the process. Keeping W open rather than 2W matters. Letting an opponent sink some resource into building for an attack or creature combo and then removing it for W is massive. It's not just about the card, it's about the play, state of the game, etc.
Basically don't fall for the meme that 1-4-1 is always strictly incorrect. Hoping to Tef Prot your way out and just letting the opponent accrue value can backfire to a single 1-4-1 counter. Wiping the board every time you see something is overkill (which is almost always strictly incorrect) and sets you back too. Most casual creature decks are synergy based and get blown out by smart interaction which cheap 1-4-1 can do well enough.
Richard has the hottest of takes even when he is counter arguing someone else's hot take.
Richard speaks the truth!
@@marsrocks247 not always, lol. Completely disagree with his spot removal take. In casual commander, spot removal is fine, against certain decks it's necessary, but it does matter what you're up against.
@@2ogres1cup50 If I dont have some cheap removal I get galtad every time 😅
swords is so cheap mana that it has to take the spot if you take a creature spot removal and i think at least 1 is worth having
@@darthsnarf yes, def
I have a friend that plays alot of cards that benefit the spell's caster and one opponent. He calls it coerced friendship. And it honestly works to get on people's good side
My political chaos deck runs 50% political cards, and 50% random chaos nonsense like timesifter. No win conditions, just commander magic in its purest of forms.
Leovold but bant
Unless, come to the table with synergy to tilt the balance. Secret Rendezvous followed by Notion Thief is just gross; 3 mana for 5-6 cards is disgusting and is a rate that does on occasion see all the way up to cedh pods.
@@2ogres1cup50 if you want a 2nd deck similarish play a group hug deck with knowledge pool and eye of the storm thrown in lol.
ramp everyone up then just watch fire works when either of those gets played.
On the note of proxying cheaper cards, a deck made out of a 0,50 average card cost can still cost as much as half of someones monthly groceries
Richard was playing devils advocate cuz he's got mixed feelings about the subject. He obviously doesn't personally care if people at his table use proxies
AND? Whats your point? If they cant afford to buy the .50 cent cards they shouldnt be trying to get into the game.....wizards isnt selling a game system like DnD...they are selling THE CARDS. THE CARDS ARE THE GAME. If you cant afford to play....why do you feel entitled to steal wizards intellectual property and play the game for free? There is a reason they make 20$ precons
@@dxdraiba7604The point is not about if proxying is ok or not.
It is about that being ok with proxying curtain "expensive" cards, but not curtain "cheap" cards makes no sense
Those are subjective measures.
Every card that is more expensive to buy than to proxy has a valid reason to be proxied
(again, not taking into acount if you want to be ok with proxying or not)
@@dxdraiba7604 lol, stow the capitalist garbage. intellectual property laws shouldn't even exist anyway.
@@delathenleso5793 First, any table I am at proxies are more than welcome and you don't need a reason (such as ones people come up with like "I have the real one in a binder" or "I bought it and it's in the mail") and you can even proxy basic lands if you need to. Second, you are absolutely wrong about Richard's intentions and beliefs and you yourself are being a jerk for no reason. He's the one that codes the website and literally has an option to print proxies when you upload a deck list. The reason he does need to play devil's advocate is that in real life unfortunately, there are going to be people who don't agree with proxies. So while it would be nice that everyone was proxy friendly, it's important that players understand when you go to a game store you are likely to run into people who aren't, and they might have their reason whether we agree with them or not. Once you get to that point, they might refuse to play with you or you can refuse to play with them, but that point of discussion is that they should be more accepted, because they currently are not universally accepted. Changing the mind of the people who don't like proxy is going to take more of an argument than "you just hate poor people, don't you?". People have their reasons and it's important to know why if you want to get them to see your reasons for being pro-proxy.
*Opponent pulls out naked cat lady sleeved deck*
Crim: “Ahhh, a man of culture I see.”
I think Richard is still Salty that his Lu Xun, Scholar General commander that he played turn 1 with Jeweled Lotus got Swords to Plowshare and totally ruined his game which is why he is picking on Swords to Plowshare.
@@delathenleso5793 Swords in the best removal in the game lmao, there is nothing to be biased about.
Richards argument against spot removal made me want to put more sport removal in my decks.
He really hates spot removal? Yeah its not the most powerful effect, but it is what you need when you need it. I only play a few but saying swords is bad is just wrong.
@@delathenleso5793 huh? I swear he ranked it s tier in their ranking video, and crim dropped it to a b. damn my crummy memory
@@delathenleso5793 He picked the one creature in the game that can realistically kill you with a single etb
there really is almost nothing that doesn't require a loop or other pieces already on the board to kill you with ETBs
Per proxying take: I had a friend give me their collection a decade+ ago. I actively played in that time. They wanted to play commander and I gave them a deck so they could play.
I told them the price of the deck just so they wouldn't lose the deck but they let me know they wouldn't have gotten into the game of they had to spend $500 on a deck just to actually play at a table.
Proxy a whole deck and have fun.
I dont think proxying should be a hot take in today’s economy for a casual format. Tbh my hot take is all formats should allow proxying nobody should be restricted from playing due to the amount of disposable income they have to spend on cards
@@ConstanceMists Play the player not their wallets, money shouldn't indicate "skill" of the game. I still hold myself to the "own at least a copy of whatever I proxy" but if my group all wanted to play cedh full duals, time twister, tabernacle decks I wouldn't care less if someone just scribbled that on the back of a basic
if it isn't playing for prizes in a sanctioned event, just make it legible
@@jamespatterson5644 even in sanctioned events proxies should be allowed, otherwise you’re not really going against the best players just the ones that can afford the best decks
You actually don't need a $500 deck to play the format, precons are less than a 10th of that.
I don’t use proxies, but I think they’re always acceptable. A game that’s pay to win isn’t worth playing. Otherwise the players could just compare bank accounts instead of pulling out their decks. On the topic of power creep because of proxies that should be covered by rule 0. If you don’t want fast mana, say so.
The pay to win excuse is such a cop out, did Yugi back down when he faced 3!!!! Blue Eyes White Dragons?! Literally the only other copy was torn to shreds. He had to expectation of assembling exodia. No he went in there and he tried to out strategize. If money alone mattered Foil Jund would be the best modern deck, and Lands would be the only legacy deck. In commander there’s so many powerful budget options available, if you don’t have the $$$ for a Tabernacle and a Mishra’s that doesn’t mean you can’t compete. .30¢ counter spell beats $900 reserved list staples every time. You don’t have to have a mana crypt or a grim monolith to exile a graveyard or swords to plowshare the biggest threat on the board. You don’t need fetch lands, shocks or OG duals to have a good mana base.
I’m not against proxies, but the pay to win BS is ridiculous. Are you even playing to win? Or are you trying to force a bunch of 6+ mana spells with a 35 land deck? Do you know how to assess threats or do you ignore the storm player so you can get revenge on the Stax player that cost you two extra mana to cast your beloved Magma Vein? Do you cast a turn 2 winter orb for no reason?
@@tcurrid8059 I thoroughly enjoyed the Yugioh reference xD. I don’t disagree that there are cheap cards in the format that are powerful. Also you’re correct that actual skill is a factor in winning. The issue is the range of cards that you’d have for deck building. For instance if you’re limiting yourself when deck building to cards that are 1 dollar and bellow, there would be a huge chunk of cards you now don’t have access to. I don’t think people should have to limit their card pool when deck building, allowing for more powerful and coherent strategies. Deck building is a skill shouldn’t be limited due to income.
@@tcurrid8059 but narratively yugi is an underdog because Kiba has money. Of course both Kiba and yugi are good at the game but the audience roots for yugi because he’s at an inherent disadvantage. So while it’s not entirely pay to win it’s at least partially pay to win. Otherwise it wouldn’t narratively make sense.
@@tcurrid8059 okay sure but pay to play whatever you want... still doesn't sound good to me. Sure whatever in competitive, but casual commander?
@@tcurrid8059 that argument falls apart real fast in the context of the cards relevant. if someone has the money for 5 color goodness I don't care how you pilot your doubling season squirrel token deck is, 9/10 you're getting stomped. their
dockside, manacrypt, mana vault, smothering tithe, mana drain, jeweled lotus og mox's+opal+amber againt you're 3 drop rocks is paying to win in that context
im being a bit extreme with og mox but still, when 1 player has a $1000+ manabase against a precon, they paid to win. thats what we are talking about here.
and yes they are getting revenge on me
I like how Richard kept saying sword was bad because it doesn’t stop hoof, but none of the cards he said he would rather run stop hoof type things either.
Hoof after boardwipe is useless
Huh? He literally said play a fog or Teferis pro. You probably win if you cast Teferis pro into their craterhoof
Hoof with a propaganda out would be really good. Then boast board wipe its still there
Also, I think the notion that giving your opponents resources is a downside in Commander is a 60-card competitive mindset. In a social game where you can develop alliances and make deals its 100% upside. Card draw, creatures, anything is fine. I've won game after letting my opponents tutor with Varragoth. It's sneaky good, and people are being short sighted in opposition to this effect.
I like group hug decks and take some of that mindset into other types of decks. Opponents get a little something but always get yourself more.
I think the complication with this is that you have diminishing returns over time with this strategy.
If you become perceived as a good political player, leveraging your alliances into wins, people become less likely to deal with you. If the strategy is getting you wins, it can increase your threat level and then undermine its own efficacy.
I think this only applies when you have a consistent playgroup. I think politics are useful, but they only get you so far.
@@erikallen4923 That's all true, but I think it also depends on how you apply these ideas. If you advertise yourself as a political deck or player, people will put up social shields and be less likely to engage. Sharing tutors with Varragoth for example is good leverage, counteroffers in political battles and a blow softener so people are less mad when you attack them.
What you're saying makes sense on paper, but we've seen on Clash that despite everybody knowing Richard's tricks, he still does very well and gets wins. I think the momentary advantage of somebody giving you something for free outweighs the potential that said opponent can leverage your favor into a win - at least that's how people interpret the facts in the moment. After all, you're in control of *how much favor you give*.
But a savvy player will take whatever they're given and make good things happen with it regardless.
I dont think that it's an infallible strategy by any means, just an underrated one which is viewed poorly by people with more competitive mindsets in a format which is social in nature.
@@TheSpunYarn you can't really take clash games ad a proof of concept, they have all admitted to not being a normal play group and doing plays they wouldn't do in other groups. Richard gets away with what he does because Crim always gunned for Tomer, Seth durdled, and Richard slow rolled to never seem to be the treat letting them all focus on each other. Iv been playing for a few years now and have never seen a pod play like this.
@@atk9989 I think they're a good example of a pod of friends who consistently play with each other. Definitely not evidence that sharing resources is powerful. But an example to point to of moments where it has been successful.
If you want to build decks that lead to interactive and interesting games, having efficient one-for-one answers is probably a good idea. You might be down a card, but put you and your playgroup further ahead in the progress of the game. It's like the Secret Rendevous of fun.
How do you plan on interactive and interesting games when the meta is "the first spell that actually resolves wins the game"? Isn't that the definition of non-interactive gameplay?
@@dontmisunderstand6041do you run removal?
@@JonReid01 Yes, but never 1 for 1 removal.
The funniest Stax piece I ever played was angel of jubilation. I was playing against a sac deck that didn’t have any removal that could kill my angel because his removal required his to sac creatures
I love that card! Also that story just enforces why everybody needs to play generically good removal spells in every deck they play, not just synergistic ones or on theme ones
Similar thing happened to me, but with yasharn. Dude at the table had an infernal grasp and sacrifice-based removal and couldnt do anything the whole game lol
@@ConstanceMists need? absolutely not. its commander, theme matters to a lot people more than winning slightly more often. should? yeah probably, and then I could play stax without everyone throwing a fit because they can't answer! what a world that would be to live in.
not my fault 1 random card locks your entire deck.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 nah youre honestly just bad if you don’t play catch all removal and get locked out by a stax piece all game. Beast within, gen gift, anguished unmaking, whatever it is it defo isn’t gonna decrease your win% by not having “on theme” cards in place of those
@@ConstanceMists "you're bad" only applies if they aren't choosing to build a deck like that and are doing so in ignorance.
I'm a stax player myself, I know the value. arguably spot removal is most effect itself in stax and taxes decks. when your 5 cmc is now 9 and I remove it with a 1 drop you're in pain. some people just wanna play ruxa with only flavor text creatures and forests.
those players do need to some degree also just accept that they will almost always lose and not get mad that they chose to build a deck with no removal and then can't deal with hate. throws some politics cards in to get people to remove stuff for you is also fun. but again people can do w.e they like and if they have fun they didn't build a bad deck really.
you seem to lean more towards cedh, as do I, but not everyone does.
I think this is the most ‘progressive’ the whole commander clash crew has ever done. Not only did they provide hot takes, but a lot of them had good support and a healthy discussion. Love it.
Dude Richard's argument against proxies is the exact opposite of progressive. His arguments were:
- people who spent a lot of money into the cards may feel bad
- magic is a luxury product... while he acknowledges tying functionality to it is a problem
- otherwise how can people justify spending thousands on their collections? ... they can't that's why you should proxy
- literally saying you accept proxies cause you are a good person ... so you are defending bad people
- didn't have an argument against the difference in price for different printings and how a cheaper vesion didn't take away from the most expensive one. His only comeback was ... choice?
It really sounded like a guy mad plebs were able to play with the same cards he has. That's basically the stance he was defending, specifically when he asked then why people are salty about it.
@@chebi97 He was playing devils advocate and being honest with why the topic is controversial. He personally doesn’t care about proxies, he’s just explaining the real psychological reasoning someone would feel upset about it. He’s simply pointing out that a lot of people take pride in their possessions and presenting the other side. It wouldn’t be a constructive discussion if everyone just said “It should be allowed” and didn’t acknowledge why it’s controversial for some people.
@@BeastlyP1g devils advocate isn't like a defense though, the only thing it actually does is validate a toxic opinion that should not be validate for the people who hold it. anti proxy players should be ignored entirely. he went on for FAAAR too long.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
I disagree. This is objectively an opinion based matter, just because the majority of us feel an opinion is “toxic” doesn’t mean they are wrong and we are right. Richard explaining the rational of… (let’s call them Whales) whales can’t make another opinion more or less justified. You can argue that opinion or view should be ignored, but I think that’s extremely irresponsible. There are really only two sides to the debate, pro-proxie or anti-proxie, with pro-proxie having different levels of support. If you don’t adequately acknowledge the other perspective a meaningful debate can’t occur. While again, Richard and ourselves may not agree with the whales position, it’s still important to discuss it. If you want to change a whales mind you sometimes need to approach the problem from a whales perspective.
Summary- Richard is simply explaining the basic defense of ‘Whales’ as well as providing some insight into why they feel the way they do. Without that it’s not really a debate.
Richard changed his argument and acted like it was what he was saying no less than three times, using those commander tactics in conversations, nice.
Also not very kind with Tomer at 1:14:00
I'm actually building a five color goad deck and the Hunted cycle is great in that deck with the ultimate goal of casting Mob Rule to attack with all the creatures you donated.
Have Disrupt Decorum in it for big damage.
fight to the death might be a good half board wipe for that. also theres a squirrel token card and a snake token card that can generate everyone creatures, squirrel all at once where everyone can dump mana into it not just you and snake over time whenever people put lands into play. don't remember the names sorry.
cool deck idea.
theres also journey together? or something where you pay 1 and then everyone else (including you but why pay? make them) pays as much as they want them all players search and play x basic lands. so you ramp everyone let them play the big stuff and swipe it with thief effects after they get those goaded counters.
Richard: single target removal is bad
Also Richard: if you play a card that stops my game plan its a feel bad so nobody should play drannith magistrate
And bith is true. :D
Single Target Removal should not end an entire deck’s plan….
There are some logical fallacies in this Hot Take. Same goes for Dockside Extortionist. Run more hatebear and single target removal. Problem solved. It's almost as if there is no problem lol.
@@VexylObby then don't build a bad deck
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena That was my point.
The thing I always felt was the issue with hybrid mana is that it expands the cardpool too much. Lets say im runing a mardu deck, I would be able to play every red/black/white card + pretty much every hybrid except simic hybrids. I know some hybrid would have green or blue pips, but still, you are pretty much 5 colour as soon as you go 3 colour
Yea but how many hybrid cards are actually worth considering over stuff you’re already including? MAYBE you fit a few extra cards in but saying that you’re essentially 5c atp is nonsensical. There are only a handful of hybrid cards you’d want over what you’re normally running in 3c
@@ConstanceMists yeah it's not like there's an orzhov hybrid rhystic study lol... but Imma shut up before I give wizards ideas lmao
Tomer: idk I don't care about hybrid mana
Also Tomer: here's my thesis on why hybrid mana would ruin commander
Lol I love these takes
I believe it was Richard's last point about proxies hit the nail on the head. So long as at parties involved know that proxies are going to be in the game ahead of time its perfect and there shouldn't be any disparity.
as long as theres not a power level disparity then it shouldn't matter knowing ahead of time about proxies specifically. frankly they should be normalized to the point that if we see a card thats over $30 we just assume it's very likely a proxy.
(not that $30 should be the ceiling even thats too much imo)
Commander is a casual format, supposedly at least. I don't care if you have proxies when the entire point of the game is to have fun, not win prizes. So long as you don't try to trade or sell your proxies as the real thing, it shouldn't matter that you own them.
My hot take: counterspells mostly for blue is a mistake.
Yeah I'd like an instant speed green counterspell for my yisan deck. What if they reprinted all blue counterspell but in all other colors as well. Wouldn't that be fun in a 5 color deck having 5 different color swan songs or force of wills
Hot take: not every deck should be playable. If you can't make a deck good enough to be playable, either deal with having a bad deck, or make a new deck, don't complain that the format isn't good because your favorite deck is easily answerable.
1:10:45 100% with Crim on Stax. The more soft/light Stax pieces like Drannith Magistrate and Thalia are fine, but Winter Orb and Stasis suck
But you have so many ways to tap orb down for yourself now. Just do it before your upkeep and then untap it with all your lands
I think stax pieces are fine in moderation but things that completely lock people out of the game are honestly just not game pieces I would ever feel good about casting. Like sure you can play winter orb but thats the equivalent of trying to play a game of pickup basketball where all your opponents shoes are glued to the floor. Is it really that fun for the people playing these kinds of cards…? Also the RC bans crap like Iona for the SAME EXACT REASON that people hate cards like Stasis and Vorinclex which just do the job better and dirtier. I love small light stax pieces like thalia just as a necessary means to slow my opponents down because this format is cracked, but stax as an archetype or a deck strategy is just lame period. Anyone can build a stax deck and make the game super unfun so the people who do play full stax and act like they got everyone good just annoy the crap out of me
@@ConstanceMists if you know you're against stax and have more than 1 deck then at least 1 should be able to knock some of their pieces out yeah? also as soon as any major stax piece is out everyone should be trying to kill the stax player. by playing stax we choose to be archenemy essentially, cause yeah the point is that my deck puts the table on a randomized clock and when time is up you can no longer meaningfully interact with me. stax vs control+aggro+super friends or w.e isn't jn the stax players favor btw, even if you turn 1 stasis.
On the whole: Swords is bad discussion:
Situational is true in a game, but I found that there are more than enough targets you want in exile and not the Graveyard. Protean Hulk, Academy Rector, Kikki-Jikki Mirror Breaker are some of the examples or nearly any creature combo or enabler like Prime Speaker Vannifar. Or I actually only want this creature to go, like with Opposition Agent, Dauthi Voidwalker, Notion Thief or Drannith Magistrate.
Also destroy is sometimes not enough against voltron and Exile Wraths are 6 Mana, so quite expensive compared to 1.
Swords against a commander is either a tempoplay or a bad play, but mostly bad.
agreed
For me the stax debate is like playing mill against some people. Some people irrationally attack the light stax like they irrationally are afraid of mill. But also as the stax player you have to know that you will get heat for it too.
I once played an Altar of the Brood turn 1 in my Brago list and got focused by the Gishath dino deck for "playing mill"
yeah. I love playing stax, but I'm afraid to even ask people if they will let me because of how absurdly angry some people get. I do accept being archenemy though, if you play stax your deck puts the rest of the table on a randomized clock and you probably know that. at a certain point you win the game by default because you can no longer be answered in any meaningful way, which is the point.
I think stax makes a great archenemy, tells people you play it and invite them to take out their hatred of it against you 3v1 off the bat. surprise stax is a jerk move admittedly.
Mill is never a fair deck, because fair mill can't win. They know the deck inherently relies on one single turn that instantly wins teh game regardless of anything else that happened during the game. That's why people hate mill, not because their cards go to the grave.
@@dontmisunderstand6041
Fair Mill is a "feels bad" to play against but are realistically combo decks
Because your opponent sees what they could've drawn (Especially since you mill from the top), and they get more and more sad to know what they could've done vs what they can't do rn.
So in general you get the hate for making people feel bad and also for playing essentially combo decks.
It's a double whammy of hate.
@@adamxue6096 Fair mill feels bad because it feels like someone at the table isn't trying to play, too.
About the spot-removal take:
I strongly disagree with Richard. (I still love you, but I think spot removal is needed for a healthy game)
"You loose. You hope someone else wastes their removal" (34:47)
That means, you rely on others to guarantee a healthy game, so you can continue playing. And you call that "wasting a spell"?
I dont get it.....
biases create inconsistent views/opinions. we all have them.
though Richard does seem particularly stubborn on this for some reason, I thought everyone made some good points against him.
Tomer was wrong about MaRo's statement on white.
What Mark said about white is that they wanted to find a way white could get card advantage that felt white. Just like impulsive draw felt red. He ultimately lost that argument though.
Also the hybrid design problem Mark said before was that making new hybrid cards aren't as fun because the most popular format won't use them the way they were intended.
I could see white pulling creatures from the top of your deck to the battlefield instead of drawing. Or more regrowth effects as card advantage.
Honestly every commander clash podcast episode has hot takes 😂 and I'm here for it. Love those discussions
I really wish that more commentary would be done on the difference between proxies and counterfeits. Seth touched on it (that they’re used interchangeably.)
Richard: Every creature needs to be removed!
Also Richard: *plays bird tribal*
"The GoldFather" is my nomination for Richards nickname
Gold Dick, his winkey is a key.
On the proxies discussion: If you show up, face off against someone, and feel angry, bad, or upset that they are using proxies, because you spent money on your cards, then you have the problem. Anyone who bases their personal status and well-being upon feeling better than others is unhealthy, and you should seek a counselor and fix that issue. Basing your value on being better off than others is not an excuse to stop other players from enjoying and playing a game with pieces of cardboard.
One thing that’s important I think in all this is wizard is against them. My shop uses commander days to help get more promos etc in from wizards if anyone ever reported to wizards that we had games with proxies for what is an official thing the store could face problems. I’m 100% ok with proxies just make sure you use them in personal spaces and not in a shop if it will negatively impact them.
People are angry that their pay-to-win blinged out deck got outplayed by the budget player. It's more about "losing to the cheap deck", proxy or not, that get the whales upset.
It’s weird… the use of proxies to me reeks of entitlement. “I should get whatever I want, because I want it”. I don’t own any of the super expensive 4 horseman cards and probably won’t ever, so I just don’t build with them in mind
@Nick Hannah you’re not locked behind a play wall. You can still play the game just fine without The Abyss, Cradle, etc… you’re talking about optimization, so just optimize to the budget you have
@Nick Hannah I guess I should check here first. Is the description your using someone who is not looking to put any money into the game? Proxy nearly everything, I mean? I don’t really have much sympathy towards those people.
Some of these did, indeed, rustle my jimmies. Mission accomplished, friends. 😅👍
I think proxies are fine, but I generally do have a few caveats.
One, you need a pretty clearly defined discussion about them, so your group doesn't just turn into cEDH (unless that's the goal ofc), and people don't get salty.
Two I would prefer people use nice proxies, you can buy them for a few dollars online, it's an aesthetic thing, I like the tables to look nice, this one is less of a requirement but if you plan to proxy something long term i don't think it's too much of an ask.
Three, if you really want to proxy something and you are either just testing it or really don't want to spend the money on a nice proxy, at least print out a copy of the card, don't write it in sharpie on a basic land or something,. This is for two reasons, magic is a complicated game and knowing the exact wordings on cards is important and I value clarity in my game. It both wastes time and is very easy to miss important things if someone has 3 different forests with black squiggles on them roughly where their creatures are and you have no idea what they are, and either have to ask or accidentally miss something important when you are making a decision in game. It takes a lot of mental energy to play a game of commander, and the games can last for a long time, especially if you are playing a deck with a ton of triggers or math, it's easy to forget what people played a turn or two ago, especially when board states get so out of hand that it's hard to tell at a glance what everything is, just makes it easier on everyone.
I'll second the draw/hand written proxies. It's fine if there's a couple that you haven't printed off properly or such but man it can suck if we have to pause a lot to check the actual card text.
I agree with having proper text for clarity
the anesthetic thing i hear so much but just don't agree with at all.
printing up a copied oracle text is definitely a minimum courtesy if you have access to a printer though not everyone does.
30:15 after waiting for Seth to be the voice of reason on Swords to Plowshares legitimacy, my reaction was exactly Tomer’s
Lmao same
Seth is always the most agreeable with his opinions in these videos, this shit shocked me. It felt like watching a character in a show I really like pulling a face-heel turn
For the Hybrid arguement: Hybrid while per rules count as "or" and not "both" doesn't change that anything that tutors a specific color of card can tutor and grab hybrid cards. Conflux is the card that displays this function perfectly and hybrid and multicolored cards can count as any of the 1 individual colors it has as a symbol in the CMC. If they can be treated the same as tutors, then they should treated the same a multicolor cards in commander. Intended functionality of the mechanic really doesn't matter here since this isn't an official format.
And modern hybrid cards tend to be more mulitcolored than moncolored for multiple colors
not sure i agree that 1 should mean the other either way. as you said its not official so we should just choose whatever the most people want. democracy and all that.
Honestly, if my lgs would start a printing service were you could order the printing of tiny rectangle immages that are "totaly definitly not mtg cards", I would love that and buy them from them. The concept that a company can make a game based on loot boxes with game pieces that have artificially inflated values, and then also have a monopoly on that is insane.
Yo, 1000% this episode was great, and the hottest take is absolutely Seth in the beginning. The format isn't holy and a better world is possible. Commander is the only format where hybrid mana doesn't work as intended, and a lot of the misconception about it come from commander being the most popular format and teaching people those misconceptions. But whether it's hybrid, wishes, etc. We SHOULD be pushing to make the format better!
Looks like Richard is still pretty salty about his turn 1 commander with jeweled lotus getting plowed from Crim. That was a stupid take rather than a hot take.
What episode was this?
@@TheOnionKnight1 I don't remember the episode number- but I do know he was playing Lu Xun (mono U guy from P3k)
100% agree. Richard has such a bad take on targeted interaction. Instant speed removal has saved me from loads of would be losses.
@@TheOnionKnight1 the gist of it is in their clip "What Every Jeweled Lotus Player Deserves" th-cam.com/video/jKb9jO6Lkbw/w-d-xo.html
Creatures are still relevant enough the Swords continues to be worth it (as a one of). That said, I agree that you do need to diversify your removal options. I would play Swords but I would also run Generous Gift, Hour of Revelation, Farewell, March ooWL. Even better is removal stapled on a threat like Solitude, Angel of Serenity, and Cavalier of Dawn. If your format is so combo heavy you should lean more on countermagic, anyway.
Talking about proxies, I actually think there is a pretty big downside to using them. When you can proxy any card, people often only pick the best most powerful cards. this leaves a lot of the more unique and cool, but less powerful, cards in this weird realm where they will never be played. I think the bigger issue here is when everyone at the table runs extremely powerful decks. Thats what really prices people out of the format. I think everyone should have a range of power in their decks so that people dont HAVE to proxy to keep up.
@WonkyWombat I can see where your coming from on this, but I personally think the way you use them is the minority instead of the majority. In my experience I've only ever seen it used to make decks more powerful and generic by including more expensive staples. I think that having budget be a concern makes decks more creative and unique, because you can't afford to run the generically good staples. Instead you have to find unique cards that are high synergy.
problem is. I dont want to play a unique craetive lovely deck. I wanna play a powerlevel apropiate deck that functions and always does what I want it to do.
I think a big takeaway for the "benefit an opponent too" cards like Secret Rendezvous for example, is that there's often a person that's behind in a game, whether its land drops or low hand size, handful of dead.drops etc, you're increasing their chances to play their cards.have fun too when they otherwise couldnt because of their game state.
I think it dramatically increases the fun when everyone on the table were able to play cool things.
Geniuinely, XYZ's take really made me rethink the entirety of how I build my decks with his enlightened message. On the other hand, xyz may be the stupidest ever magic player who should have his DCI number revoked for being so misinformed about how the game works.
I cannot believe this "hot take" that Swords to Plowshares, the BEST removal in the game, is not good enough in this 2022 Super-fast-everything-needs-to-be-removed format that Richard is talking about. Not sure you are going to leave 3 mana up for Generous Gift the whole game to answer the Tergrids of the world.
Commanders are creatures 99% of the time... my god...
I think the issue with using Commanders as an argument in favor of creature-only single target removal, is that Commanders are the only creatures in the game (aside from Amonkhet Gods) that your opponents will have access to after you remove them. You can't effectively *remove* a Commander from the game with any spell.
If somebody is playing Tergrid against you and you remove her, you're still getting your hand ripped apart and your stuff still gets sacrificed, so the impact of removing her is almost negligible imo
@@TheSpunYarn unless of course she comes down early (fast mana and a swamp or two and see her on turn 2 or 3) and that one mana swords sends her back to the command zone and not coming around again for several turns. seems efficient to me.
@@jlbrooks74 Ya got me there! Very few cards would be able to take care of that so early.
@@TheSpunYarn this why oubliette is my favorite card. Shuts them down until they can remove the enchantment and many decks can’t.
@@starmanda88 I run Oubliette in Mono Black Control for that very reason!
Counterpoint to the hybrid mana hot take: if a hybrid symbol should be counted as either/or one of the two colors when determining the color identity in the 99, then the same should be true for commanders.
So for example if you're trying to make a Oona Deck you can make it mono blue or mono black, but not Dimir. Is that cool?
Nah, I don’t really think so, your Commander’s Color identity is for determining what can go in your deck, while cards in the 99 use their identity to determine if THEY can go in your deck, so if you’re using Oona your colour identity is
“You may include any blue or black color identity cards in your deck.”
Whereas hybrid cards in the 99 are “This card’s Color identity is blue or black”
They’re both “or”, but Commander CI is inclusive.
Or, to make it even simpler, you could just word the whole thing as “You MAY treat this card as blue or black for the purposes of Color identity”. Just making it a may allows you to choose “blue and black” for your commander but “Blue or black” for cards in the 99.
@@Qazplm601MC The whole point is to change how CI is computed for hybrid cards, so they're not both colors simultaneously, but only either one of them, and they can fit in monocolored decks. For example, Oona's CI would be either blue or black but not both at the same time.
An important observation is that color identity is the same whether the card is a commander or not, so Oona's CI could not be considered both colors even in the command zone: you would still have to choose either blue or black and build a monocolored deck accordingly.
This said, of course my comment was a provocation, you can change the rules in any way that better suits your ideas for the game. You could decide that CI has to be computed in a different way for commanders. Heck you can even decide that every single hybrid mana symbol can be considered separately as either one of the colors, so the first symbol in oona's mc is black and the others are blue when using it as a commander (so it's dimir), but they are all blue or black if you want to put her in the 99 of a monocolored deck. (Weirdly enough you couldn't do this for
Rosheen Meanderer because she has only one hybrid mana symbol, so it could not be both red and green even in this scenario).
But yeah, if you want to keep it simple, you kinda have to do as I described.
100% with Tomer here. Proxys made my playgroup way more interesting from a gameplay perspective. And screw crybabies, they knew proxies existed before they bought their cards.
that why my group cuts out the middle man and plays on Untap free for everyone
Tomar seems incredibly entitled to me. This is a casual format, so why the need to make fake cards? There’s nothing on the line
Pay to win isn’t fun. Look at how popular games like League are. Vs backlash that pay to win games get.
How do you stay friends with someone if all you want to do is stunt on them because they are poorer than you?
@@mathewdebol923 This is a casual format, so why not make fake cards? this goes both ways mate
@@egananders7318 league is not a good example as there are plenty of pay to win shenanigans that goes on in it especially the "coincidental" nerfing or buffing a champion because a skin comes out for them or the one they counter
This happens way to often for it to be considered a coincidence even if Riot themselves deny this
I spoke to a member of the CAG about the hybrid mana issue, they agreed that things like manamorphose make sense for either colour, but with things like reaper king, it makes no sense, since that is definitely a 5 colour card, but it would be able to go in any deck, as its colourless and 5 colour under the other hybrid mana rule.
Good point. I was thinking about cards the new three colored legendries from New Capenna (Ognis, Evelyn, Tolus, Jinnie & Rigo) and whether or not they should be allowed in their mono colored slots.
Straw man fallacy. Oh no the mono green deck would play a 10 mana tribal centered scarecrow. Who cares if they play it.
@@gmpd4191 it isnt a straw man, since I'm not misrepresenting any argument. I'm literally reciting what I was told.
It also isn't about where the card would be played, it's about the precedent, and the line was drawn on the side of being more limiting, rather than more open. Reaper King was just an example too, what about boros reckoner, that is a card that could be played in mono red or mono white if you were allowing the other style of rules for hybrid cards, when it is explicitly a boros card.
That kind of cropped up in my mind - under this change, you could technically play Evelyn in any black deck, right? And that includes Edgar Markov, who certainly does not need the buff that she could provide. Right now there's a divide between the Mardu aggro flavor that Edgar goes for and the steal-your-stuff angle Evelyn uses, but due to current rules you can't mash the two together. And that's a good thing, in my opinion. Change it so that she can be considered mono-black... is that good for the format?
@@1AlasBabylon I mean he already steals all your shit with that one vampire that taps others to steal 1 more card not going to do much eminence is just a dumb mechanic and should be banned
Of course proxies are a rule zero conversation. Richard clearly explained why some people will feel bad if they find out during the match. For me I am glad to play against anyone.
My only issue with proxies is seeing a bunch of 3-4K cards in someone’s deck I mean sure workshop is legal but most people aren’t playing the real card
Honestly it is a non issue on if someone proxies the only issue is people not talking about what power level of game they want to play
"why do people buy foils? They like shiny, they like bling, they like flexing"
Foils probably flex too much.... Sadly.
i see what you did there..
i would watch tomer talking about and upgrading commander cube! i really like cube, it's one of the best ways to experience magic. you set the rules, you decide on the contents, wotc provides the cards.
As for the color identity and hybrid mana... it is honestly just an aesthetic thing for me, if someone is playing a mono-red deck, I don't want to see a green card, it messes with the solid color. I know this is a dumb reason, but even if the rules changed I would probably still build my decks that way.
The swords argument gave me a headache. I'm sorry it's not a one mana board wipe that half the opponent's life and cascades but damn that's absurd.
The arguments against proxies is the same bad arguments against student debt forgiveness. “I suffered for this so now you have to.”
I don’t like the idea of the collection aspect of the game being skipped for just “power, now”
"I made an absolutely ret@rded choice and took out tens of thousands of dollars in loans for a worthless degree and I want the taxpayer to pay for it!"
Lmao no. Play all the proxies you want, I respect WotC as much as I do idiots that don't know how loans work: 0.
The arguement about proxies only exists nowadays because a lot of new players don't understand the spirit of EDH/Commander. You're supposed to look at your collection and put a commander deck together, not theory craft or net deck a commander deck and assemble it. A lot of that aspect of EDH/Commander seems to be getting lost over time. This is supposed to be a side format so that cards in your collection don't just sit there collecting dust after they rotate out of more active formats.
Meta is stale when everyone just proxies the busted cards from 8 years ago
@kdash2657 I'm glad someone else commented about how braindead that analogy is so I don't have to
19:06 board wipes are good in aggro decks
27:38 swords to plowshares is trash
39:45 proxies are good
1:05:12 sol ring should be banned
1:10:50 light stax is ok
1:18:21 normalize conceding
1:19:38 giving your opponents stuff is good and should be banned
My gripe about hybrid mana symbols being used in mono colored decks is that it completely destroys color identity.
Why should I be able to play Zirda in a mono-white blink deck, but I can't use momentary blink? Momentary blink in every format other than commander is a mono-white card, the blue mana on it isn't required to cast it unless you're playing it from your graveyard.
A hybrid card IS BOTH COLORS, Zirda can be converted or destroyed with hydroblast. In order to work properly with color identity, the rules of hybrid mana would have to functionally change so that you can declare the color of the spell on the stack.
I feel like the color pie is just forgotten until they start looking at white.
Green and blue definitely get to ignore the color pie whenever they want and in every set. Red and black have started to mess around outside their pie slices as well.
Just do away with it, or actually stick with it for every color
Who has time to draft a cube, build decks, and play a commander game? That's the whole day.
Richard really carries the podcasts with his actually hot takes and also he keeps playing devil's advocate which is nice. Huge props.
When Richard leaves goldfish head in your bed you know your in trouble and it already to late
48:00 you'd tell them "tough"? No, tough for you. The person proxying isnt the one who decides if proxies are ok to use. You're not entitled to those cards.
Don't play a card that you dont own if you're gonna have a crappy attitude about it. Buy the cards. If you dont want to spend the money, then tough. If you want to play a cheaper version of those cards, you can use the already printed and existing weaker versions of those cards. If you're not ok with that, then that's a you problem.
The foil argument and expensive brainstorm vs the 25 cent brainstorm is a bad comparison because you still paid for and own the brainstorm, regardless of the quality.
The argument that "artifacts do everything" doesn't work in the case of graveyard hate because the trade off for using an artifact card to go outside of your colour pie is that it will cost 2-3 more mana than normal. There is many 0 and 1 mana artifacts that affect graveyards so I agree with Seth on this that graveyard hate is universal.
Also Dockside as a hypothetical hybrid card makes zero sense. Treasure is a rainbow ability so literally the only thing tying it to red is being a goblin.
Heck, the "artifacts can do anything" argument isn't applicable imho when you have *colorless lands* that can do it. On another note, people don't respect/play Scavenger Grounds enough in EDH.
On the topic of Proxies I find that MOST people run proxies for a couple reasons. They're either doing what Crim stated and running multiple copies of a card they already own. Trying out a new deck and running cards you want to try out but want a placeholder. OR, proxying the super expensive cards (dual lands, moxes, etc). Where I find the argument gets salty is when you see someone running a cEDH-powered deck with proxies in a casual pod or wanting to go to a tournament setting.
I think the reason making a card that is hybrid mana but can be played in a solo color rather than just making that color mono is that it signals that this not something to expect from this color. This is a rare exception. Once you print it in a mono-color it just automatically is now part of the pie. Once it starts appearing there it becomes harder to justify not adding more.
As a Golgari player I hate Rest In Peace and the Leyline that turns off graveyards. But, that's the main reason I run a lot of enchantment removal. Yeah it's annoying, but it forces you to build better interactive decks. The same can be said for any stax piece. Run removal. Be better able to interact with threats. The line for me is a deck that is all stax which doesn't have a clear win-con. I play a Queen Marchesa Monarch deck which taxes my opponents, but has clear win cons through monarch damage effects and even a couple of alternate win cons like Approach.
Regarding the Proxy topic, I am a bit againts it. I like the geatering part of the game, to build and play a deck with cards you have collected. To make it the best you can. But if min maxing is your goal, go for proxys.
After Commander Legends 1 was released I built a commander cube initially based on the set and my personal collection. I've since taken apart every commander deck I own and purchased many new cards all to fuel the cube, and its a ton of fun. Its been especially great because of my friend group I was the only one willing to invest as much as necessary to play the format, which caused others to fall behind and stop playing. However, this cube has allowed me to invest and collect as much as I want to while creating an environment for all my friends to enjoy too.
Completely loved this chat - Your proxy chunk was damn spicy and ties into the commander cube discussion nicely. Its damn close to touching on what I feel is the remedy to magic's bad economic formats too - CUBE is now the ONLY format - just not a commander format 🌶
On the topic of hybrid, I think the rules make sense, but I also think that there is room for change, I wouldn't be pissed if the change happens. But I do think that people are using bad reasoning to try to justify them wanting to change the rules. Kitchen Finks is not a mono white card, it can be cast with either white mana or green and that's a big difference. If you reveal it with Niv Mizzet Reborn, you can add it to your hand, your command tower taps for W or G if Rhys is your commander. Every rule of the game recognizes them as multicolored, the only "either/or" part in the cards is the casting requirement. Also, "hybrid doesn't work the same as in other formats" is bs, hybrid works exactly the same, the difference is the deck building restriction (i.e. the identity of the format). The only solid argument for changing the rule is simply because people want to change it (and it might be reason enough!)
Proxying is like buying a card on Arena instead of MTGO, you get the same functionality and gameplay but no return. Buying real cards allow you to gain a return if you wish to ever sell it and if you have no intention of selling it you have gained a treasured collectors item. additionally the more people playing the game the more those real cards end up being worth so at the macro scale it is advantageous to the people buying the real cards.
I want to play with more people and I want people playing more decks, proxies enable that. It makes my gameplay experience more fun and varied which is a far better quality of life return for me then if someone stops showing up because they can't compete or are tired of playing their commander deck and are working on making a new one (which could take months). Trends also show that once a player finds a deck/archatype they love they will take the time to legitimize it.
If you ever have power level concerns make sure they are stated and understood right out of the gate. This is a universal best practice and should apply to everyone.
You hit this topic right on the head and it was really refreshing to hear discussion beyond the usual sticking points of “but then people will play all the busted cards” and “it makes the players who spent hundreds of dollars feel ripped off”. The idea that proxies are inherently not worth money is a two way street, you can’t invest in proxies and then feel the joy of selling a busted card you got out of a pack or the feeling of watching a card you got early climb ever higher in value. Because of course never forget these aren’t counterfeits we are talking about, no genuine proxy player is trying to scam or cheat by printing there own magic cards. So ya really liked what you were saying hear, your comment should be way more visible.
People hating on Stax is just people salty that an entire archetype exists. Some say the same about decks with counterspells. It's a game and you should be prepared to play with all the pieces. I don't ask opponent's to remove their bishop before chess...
Goldfish crew, I'll be bringing my oathbreaker cube to Richmond. Same playtime as a regular commander game 1-1.5 hrs total (incl draft). Legacy power level.
On the proxy front, I remember playing at a casual club in college and my opponent had a fully proxied modern Jund deck against my $50 budget infect deck that I owned. And I remember getting annoyed at him back then over proxying to jump straight to the highest power level deck when I was much more willing to accept I only had so much money and only play what I could afford. Now that I am better off and can afford to buy expensive decks I find myself drawn to proxy dual lands and power for a cube I want to build.
I think I feel like my competitive 60 card decks are more meaningful to me and I want the person across from me to have put the same thought and care into the deck as I have, while something I know is casual I don't care if they just did whats most powerful. Proxying just to net-deck still feels wrong, but I don't dislike the idea of proxies as much as I used to
The thing that drives me up a wall with the color identity stuff is how yes, it’s one thing to maintain things that have been working well and fine for years but color identity rulings still remain some of the must unintuitive messes in commander. The average newcomer doesn’t look at a card like Emiel the Blessed and will assume they’re a gold/multicolor card. Everything about that cycles shows the cards functions SPECIFICALLY in 1 color and can’t function in the other without playing 2 color (so Emiel can’t be played in an all green deck anyway because it costs white to cast) but thanks to the color identity police, no you can not put the unicorn that’s essentially a white card all except a hybrid cost ability in the 99 of a white commander deck. It’s nonsense.
Rule 0 exists, if you think its a bad rule, speak to your group, and see how they feel about emiel in mono white.
@@CheeseWedge056 rule 0 dumb and the biggest problem with commander they many cases where it not even an option using that to try and solve ever issue just so annoying
@@Alkhemia8 I kinda agree, like are you supposed to have a 30 minute discussion on all 30 things everyone says to just rule 0 every time you go to your LGS?
@@atk9989 The point where rule 0 is useful is the point where the rule serves no purpose my group I play with a lot we can just be like "hey I want to play with this Tranformer silver boarder card as my commander and what not can I" "sure w/e" we tell them
we have a group banlist + the base banlist but otherwise we just play anything with in reason
I have never won when I got a Turn 1 Sol Ring (let alone Sol Ring into a Signet). I always become the Archenemy and am put into a 3 on 1 scenario. In my playgroup, this is very much how it always goes. Even at local stores, pretty much always true. The only time I see it win games is when you go to conventions and people are playing their "Definitely a 7" but is secretly a CEDH deck. Pop off on turn 1 and run away with the game by turn 2 or 3.
48:00 seen this scenario, what do you guys think.
Back at my old LGS there was a massive verbal fight over a proxied Imperial Seal. The main argument for the guy that was against it was that this is a collectable card game. The collection aspect is part of it. So if you haven't collected that card, you can't use it. He said it was similar to using a cheat code to get a better weapon in a video game. He said that since commander is just for fun, you have to use real cards. Since there is no reason to optimize your deck in this format just use what you have
anyone against proxies for any reason can kick rocks. its a forced scarcity by a greedy company, its arguably more ethical to proxy litterlally your entire deck than even use what wizards prints and then price gouges people for. especially with all the market manipulating by finance assholes.
“Swords to plowshares is boomer magic” Dude are you freaking crazy?!
*listens to explanation*
Yes, he’s crazy….crazy smart!
Inserting my random 2 cents.
Hybrid Mana
9:09 Right here pretty much the reason the hybrid mana rule exists. Sure it’d be nice to have graveyard hate and tutor hate in Momo blue or etc. cases but the card is definitely a Blue/Black flavored card. Like why play the artifact graveyard hate that’s less good when you could play Ashiok. Also it’s more of a future proofing rule I think and creativity isn’t limited that much by keeping people from hybrid mana cards.
Boardwipes in agro decks
Agreed always pack some board wipes. Like maybe minimum 3-4 for me anyways. In almost any deck I can make besides maybe some meme decks.
Too much spot creature removal
Heck no, there are way too many kill on sight creatures/commanders now a days and need to be stopped immediately at instant speed. Like swapping my 1-3 mana instant speed removal to wait for a board wipe instead is just bad. I’d say killing someone’s commander also has just become a method of slowing down people by a turn or two.
Proxies
Nothing wrong with them I think. Just don’t go crazy like if the group is casual don’t just go nuts with mana crypt, CEDH staples, etc in all your decks. Especially since prices have gone crazy and there are so many cards releasing that are just auto upgrades in decks. End of the day just talk with the group. Like I think part of the fun is getting those niche cheap cards and getting some fun with them over the crazy cards.
I guess for the longest time I hated really lazy proxies like just a basic land with the card it’s supposed to be written on it.
On another note I feel like they were on this topic too long.
Sol Ring banned
If so you gotta ban the other fast rocks too then you probably wind up with green having an advantage with their 1 mana dorks, land enchants, or other stuff. Like if you want to ban Sol ring for fast mana you gotta take an axe to ALL the fast mana.
Light Stax
I don’t think there is anything really wrong with stax at all, just maybe be ready for the board to dislike you and don’t let that be your only deck since people will not want to play after awhile.
Giving opponents stuff = Good
Fun for casual and really until you get to the higher levels of power you don’t need to worry about it.
Commander cube
Yes it’s fun. Just hard to set up I think.
Proxies: the reason why we play the game is to collect cards and from that collection build a deck. This is not poker the cards you have matter for deck building. I think the biggest problem is that people watch shows like this and think that if they don't have the most optimized deck then their deck is trash. A 3 power deck can beat a 8 because this is a multiplayer format. The deck u build day one will not be the same deck 2 years from now. The cards you have have to matter or what is the point of collecting. If you proxy everything is stifles deckbuilding because every deck has the same cards red deck dockside, token deck doubling season, blue deck force of will, manna drain ect. It sucks you can't play those cards there are 1,000s of alternatives that are a little less good.
@WonkyWombat So i have a question if you are not proxying expensive staples what cards are you proxying? If you are not including those expensive cards why are you proxying?
I think Tomer nailed the StP debate. The defenses against it were admirable, though.
I'm actual with Crim that the Color Pie is dead/broken. While Wotc may try to enforce it for Red, white, and to an extent blue. It has allowed Green and to an lesser extent black do whatever it wants to do.
Like what can't Green do? Green can now have synergistic decks that work with Artifacts. It has Card Draw, Ramp (both permanent and temporary thanks to treasure), efficient removal (Creature, Artifact, Enchantment, and Planeswalker), recursion, tutors, Synergistic Decks with Enchantments, superior creatures, Sacrifice decks, token decks, counters decks, and etc etc etc.
Meanwhile, Red can't efficiently deal with Planeswalkers, has no enchantment removal (except Chaos Warp and that's a color break), impulse drawing while yes is card advantage is still inferior to actually drawing the cards, Red really doesn't reliable tutors (unless dealing with Goblins), the creature removal is inefficient for Commander, and the same goes for Planeswalker removal. Plus Red suffers a bit of an identity problem in Commander. Each of the other colors do things so much better than Red. Like Black and White are the top recursion colors, Green and Blue for card draw, Blue and White for Artifact support, Green and White for Enchantments, and etc.
The thing with proxies is that we have to remember this is a casual format. I understand official tournament formats not allowing them, but this is a casual format where many people are introduced to the game. I think proxies aren't inherently bad in edh, every playgroup should agree on power level and then allow anyone to make their decks fit that level the way they want/can. If you want to play budget you can always tell your group you'd like to have a budget format going so that everyone has their high level proxied deck, their mid level deck with few proxies they're trying to buy and their budget deck they actually own
My personal preference is that you should at least own one copy of the card unless you're playing edh where entire decks require cards from the reserve list and other things like mana crypts. It might be an unpopular opinion but I think it's kind of lame to proxy something like a shock land or even a doubling season for casual play unless you already have one and just need it in multiple decks. Since it's a singleton format I've always thought why bother with more than one copy of any given card but I kinda think you should have at least the one real card as a general rule.
@@Thunderkeg but why?
@@Feyamius because be all rights you could just switch that ONE card out from one deck to the other this just takes time and we don't want to do that. The owning one card still give mtg the incentive to make more cards and keep going.
@@Thunderkeg the thing with what you say about the shockland or the doubling season is that we are assuming what is expensive and what isn't when this is entirely dependant on each person. I'm starting to play after a 10 year hiatus in which I had to sell all my cards because I was moving to a different country. One 3 color deck requires 3 shock lands. If want a doubling season, or a smothering tithe or a rhystic study it adds up. It's a lot of money, we can't compare a new player to a person with a huge collection they've made over the years. Yeah, a shock land sounds like nothing when you have plenty laying around or at least something to trade for, but we can't assume what is cheap and what isn't. I live in Latin America and we've discussed what we consider to be an expensive card and I've heard answers range from $100 to $50 and some people even consider a $2 card to be expensive when you can actually buy food to get by through the weekend. We don't care if you proxy a 25 cents card to try it out before buying it, maybe you're trying 10 and those $2.5 is relevant enough not to buy before trying.
@@carloszarraga1990 then you buy the cards as you can and run other options in the meantime. To keep it relevant to the podcast it's partly why it's so weird to hear Tomer go on and on about restrictions breeding creativity and then say everyone should be able to proxy whatever cards they want and doesn't see how those statements run contrary to each other. If you can't afford the cards you simply use cards you have and can afford and replace them when you can. That's how TCGs have always been. I understand reserve list cards more because thats a time gate you can't get around but anything else is subject to being reprinted and they do reprint things all the time so proxying tons of cards just because you are impatient and mad at wizards reprint policy is not a good reason. In personal playgroups none of these rules matter, the rules are for casual pick up games and I'd be really pissed if I got put into a pod at an LGS where people had proxied their decks and I hadn't. Having proxies be ok as a general rule instead of being ok if your playgroup says so causes these kinds of clashes in casual play that don't happen otherwise.
52:50 Wise Man Crim talking about being "emotionally full", very good little soundbite.
I feel like hybrid mana done well is perfectly fine to consider as either color for color identity. Like, isn't Ashiok not feeling right as mono blue more of a design fault of WotC not doing a great job of making it feel 1UU not a problem with it being hybrid mana?
Here to remind everyone to use print services to make high quality proxies (use a different back to avoid the counterfeit issue) and stop giving wotc money because their products are not worth what they charge.
"The Meatball Massacre"
New playmat drop when?
The proxy debate has always been hot, but lately it’s a wild fire. Proxies aren’t devaluing the real cards and I’m not sure why people get so bent about them. IMO there’s only 1 place proxies are 100% no and that’s sanctioned competitive REL for prize / money. Which I fully agree with. Everything else casual should be house rule, TO decision, playgroup vote / decision. I don’t play proxies as I have the majority of old / RL cards from my youth but I have no issue with people using them.
My hot take: Path to exile is amazing in mono white. Kill a creature, turn on your catch up ramp. Or, use it like a sacrifice spell. One white, as an additional cost, exile a creature you control. Get a plains. That's pretty sweet.
lol
1.: You can build any power lvl deck (except cedh) with a reasonable amount of money (like yuriko, etc.).
2.: A person who is invested into this game won´t proxy everything (collector mindset)
3.: A person who isn´t invested and "overproxyd", can´t play their deck properly and will probably be talked to or think about how they approached this game.
4.: If you wanna play a casual game and shy away by the prices of some overpriced powerful cards, didn´t you want to play competitive in reallity?
5.: Building up a collection of cards to play with, is a limititation and a goal in itself, there has to be some benefit to it. Try to think of anything you really wanted and then assume everyone could just have it for free.... Where did the euphoria get lost?
6.: To make my point more specific: making everything affordable seems nice, but would make "Commander" pretty fast a competitive format with even harder and more unfun rule 0 debates.
I think, we often don´t realize, that good prohibitions are important to fuel our communal engines.
(I have no problem with anyone using proxys btw, absolutely fine on my end... reasoning in point 2 and 3)
Just my hot takes :)
On color identity: I do find it a bit weird that the fetch-lands are not given color identities. I know why, but it feels weird. They even have colors in their text-box backgrounds! Also, some cards like Reality Twist and Naked Singularity shouldn’t count as 5-color just because they have the color symbols.
Why aren't Terramiphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds 5 color? Or it the text box color is important, why not Prismatic Vista?
Because it calls out a basic land type? What about the Panoramas? Farseek?
Why do people look to carve out a hole for *specifically and only* the Onslaught/Zendijar fetches? Just because they're powerful and popular?
And how would you change the rules so that cards like fetchlands, and panoramas, and hideouts have color identities?
@@DarthChocolate15 Because they are literally the other colors. Terramorphic expanse is grey. Prismatic Vista is gold. Scalding Tarn is blue and red. Which ones make sense to be in a Azorius deck?
For an example, consider a completely new player picking up commander. You drop that Scalding Tarn in your Azorius deck and they go "wait, why can you have that red card?". To me, saying "But it's actually colorless according to the color identity because the mana symbols don't explicitly show up!" looks like an excuse to run powerful cards.
@@Tvboy777 meeeeeeh I probably wouldn’t change the rules. Like I said, it feels a bit weird, but not enough that it’d be worth the trouble to change it.
@@AnthonyScolaro5 Gold represents multicolored, some I'm not sure why that gets a pass in a monocolored deck, though I understand your point in general.
But I don't know. Wizards printed them with a card back that doesn't actually reflect on the game rules at all. Not sure that's a good basis for rule handling. And honestly I think it's less confusing for new players than something like an Avacyn's Pilgrim not being legal in a mono green deck (and don't even get started on extort).
The issue with RiP is the combination of a one-time wipe that can't be stopped *and* the passive effect. Leyline of the void has the static, but doesn't remove what you already have and you know you have to deal with it before using the yard. Other hate doesn't set you back permanently (grafdigger's cage) or is one-shot (crypt, lantern, etc).
Also, the ETB trigger is essentially impossible to stop except in blue, which is kind of frustrating.
Tomer, I'm trying to build a commander cube too but I'm going to wait until commander legends 2 to release so I can put those cards into my cube. Would you be interested in making a video on your thoughts and process on making a commander cube? Would love to hear your thoughts/ideas!
I would love to see this as well
Hitting Sun Titan with Swords is good, both because it'll keep getting value over time and it's pretty often a combo piece that needs to hit the grave
As an actual reason, I know more people who would be confused if hybrid mana didn't work the way it currently does as most people I knows mindset is "oh it has this color on it, so it can go only in decks with that color" so I don't really know why it is confusing. From a rules reason, the cards are actually both colors.
And red cards can produce white tokens
@@soren1803 Sure, but that is not a visual thing on the card when they pick it up, and learners of a game or format respond almost always first to visual things.
@@williamgressman4001 true, but we also allow “off-color” fetches in every deck
@@soren1803 Yeah, and Im not a fan of that either but recognize that there isn't a nice rule that would fix that without other problems
Proxies tend to let people experiment and later buy their cards. However, this experimentation is usually either laughably bad or heavy power creep. Especially at tables where multiple people start proxying.
The solution is to assume either
1. These are all non-games.
2. Bring your highpower/cedh deck againsg it.
3. Balance your decks based on total cost.
Sub $100 decks, below $250 and below $400 and then above $400. This would reduce how much spike especially from price the deck would be. If your decks are within a similar price, its not the money/proxies, its the deck building/skills.
i mean 21 commander damage is a fun story that tends to interest new players. elder dragon highlander the elder dragons were 7/7's so three hits by one would make someone lose as an alternate win con.
Oh no no no! That would be too "conservative"
Why so rigid? Lol
Seth makes terrible arguments. He should just go play Brawl lol