Crazy how I got called silver for saying that ADC characters are good enough to be played in every role, but so many high elo people agree that it's a giant problem that they can dominate roles
@@demonderpz7937And thats not even always the case, its just that being lower level means you cant 1v5 as easily without good positioning, so they're bitching about being weak literally because of their skill issue😂
Yes ur indeed silver, ur stating that ADC is op because people are playing them mid, but people are too dumb to check their winrates before speaking about dominating other roles, trist luc kaisa ezreal corki zeri all avg about 45% wr midlane.
Time really is a full circle. For those who haven't played since the old days, ADCs used to go mid as their primary lane, but were ran out by Assassins and Burst Mages, this led to people playing safe scaling mages there instead because they needed less protection and or had instant wave clear, Anivia being one of the best at this. It will be fun to see if this all happens again.
@@Fadlife_League It was like double bruiser lane often, or what people called a kill lane Something like Pantheon with Lee Sin or other silly stuff. An ADC with a tanky support like Taric or Blitz I think ended up countering those kill lane duo. Now we are often seeing double mage in botlane these days, kinda similar isn't it.
If you look at the profiles of mid and top adc's, you will see they are not botlane players. Its just that mid and top players have realized that adc champions are too strong due to the fact adc players champions are forced to exist in the worst lane in the game.
Bot lane isn’t even bad, I legitimately think the problem is the average support player is so elo inflated because they are almost always the worst player in the game. Riot buffed the power level of support to be so ungodly high so people would fill the role because back in the day no one would queue support.
@@tc851 I don't think the issue is the skill level of support. Its the fact that bot lane is meant for two players to be in sync, and solo queing is fundamentally opposed to letting that happen. But if you duo que then you are agreeing that Riot should match you up against harder opponents to compensate for having the ability to communicate. Lets also not excuse ADCs on this. Looking at the dravens that flash barrier cause you accidentally took a single kill from him due to burn, or hit a single minion on accident. Theres a huge issue of Main character syndrome tied to that role specifically because of certain streamers that I won't name.
The problem with bot is that you're relying on your support being good. 9/10 of my matches, they're not. It's frustrating. So I took AP Ez mid, and I LOVE it! Damn. I should have read the replies first. 😂 You guys already said this.
@@wvubebop thornmail, sorc shoes, max w, fight enemy. You can play him in toplane against pretty much anyone ad as long as you survive for 800g gold to buy bramble vest
Anyone who says tanks are not broken is completely delusional. I just couldnt escape silver this split in over 100 games, so instead of picking normal midlaners, i finally caved and started picking bruisers/tanks. I took me a little over a week to get back to plat with a 90+% wr on mundo and garen. Consistently doing most damage of all 10 on pure tank builds. This company is cooked.
@@notlisztening9821 Riot be like: "what if i make a character that has mobility, durability, damage, cc, max health damage and good wave clear? i really wanna see my character become the strongest. they shouldn't have weaknesses", it really looks like a child's fantasy that they want the character to be the most OP and have no weaknesses
adc is useless if they play in the botlane, their items are strong and power spikes are strong. theyre playing adc in every other role bc its safer and more efficient for the adc since bot lane sucks
Adc was useless in botlane because go figure, handing 2 people an each team a free 3-6k gold in stats via level lead is a pretty insurmountable amount for overcome. "Yeah if you want to he EVEN with your inting top laners in stats you need to have 10-20 kills or a upwards of 150-300 cs lead". Yeah, pretty shit idea n
@@einjharrelraca while you have a point with level leads meaning a lot, you are WAY off about those gold values. Each level is about 300-600 gold, not 3k-6k; it's not "10-20 kills," it's 1-2. Big difference.
@@nutpea. average value in stats gained on level up in league is 850 gold. i was rounding And i did not say "each level is 3-6k gold" i said "a free 3-6k gold in stats via level lead" being the 3-6 levels you get ahead for free for being in a solo lane. so yes. it is 10-20 kills, 3-6k gold and 150-300cs worth of free stats. Its the TOTAL of 3-6 levels. not sinular levels im talking about. if a solo lane is only 1 level up on a botlane they should be banned for inting.
You can make any adc useless by keeping flash for important teamfights and not wasting your high damage abilities on tanks as their adc is attacking you. I understand, you're bronze, and you must attack first guy you see, but bear with me when I say that league is a complex game where you can make complex decisions such as "I chunked this guy hard and he has no chance taking our objective now, maybe I should stop chasing and go back and help my jungler do the objective faster".
Dude I used to only play bot and cry because my support, but after I qued top/mid I'm climbing like no tomorrow because I can make my own decisions and not have to 3v1
The whole idea of "I don't know which role this Vayne/Varus/Lucian/Ezreal/Tristana is playing, so I now can't lock in any melee champion" is the issue for me. The only counterplay I find in dogwater diamond elo is when the ranged laner just... Sucks. Vayne constantly Q'ing straight into my Cho'Gath Q which I am maxing with a Dorans Ring starting item, so now she's half hp and can no longer afford to poke me in case I land another Q + W and kill her in the silence. If she just walks up without Q'ing, she'll just dodge my Q with hers and I can no longer play. But that is the only thing I can do. The only counterplay to ranged top at least, is for them to just be bad players. Ranged vs melee matchup is just so onesided, and in mid you easily contest every wave, bully your opponent and get prio for everything.
Ah yes, of course, people who complain about range top are people who play chogath and max his most useless ability that is impossible to hit on anyone who has a working monitor. You're literal bronze, but even you can full this off: pick renekton, play safe until level 3, get level 3 and have more than 80% of your health bar, just walk away if you are about to get autoattacked, if you get autoattacked and take damage, you're doing it wrong, use bush to soak xp even if you can't last hit minions, at level 3 use typical renekton gameplay to all in for easiest kill in your life because you just learned how to play this game. It doesn't have to be renekton, any real bruiser who has CC and a dash will do the same thing. It's funny how jax is a champion yet you bronzies can't deal with autoattackers.
@@templeofdelusion Quite ironic you call it a bronze problem when ADC in solo-lanes are the biggest issue in high elo. Marksmen will continue to receive systematic nerfs until they're mostly kicked out of solo-lanes in pro play. Get fucked ADbaby.
if you're just out here picking cho every game regardless of the matchup the problem isn't the lack of counterplay, you're just getting outdrafted. mobile adcs will hard counter cho no matter what because a majority of his damage comes from skillshots while all they have to do is click you. your best bet is to learn an equally (or more) mobile skirmisher like irelia or yone. or pick renekton or sett and sit in bush all game so they can't harass you out of lane like the guy above said.
The problem in top is also that ranged tops have been quite op for a while, but the counters to them were also meta, camille, olaf, yone, and forgive me for uttering his name, malphite. These all keep the ranged champs out of toplane
Hot take that got left out to get cold on the counter: bot lane has been worst lane for 15 years (or more) and seaspn after season they update the jungle, rework all the supp items, rework tanks, reworks tank items, add new items for every role except adc, etc etc etc. Ofc adc sucks. Its always sucked. I'm mindfucked it took players THIS long to move to another lane and allow 1 microgram of dopamine back into their lives.
cant wait to riot releasing adc that have scaling with armor and scaling with max hp while dealing pure damage and 300% effective damage against jungle monster
Ikr, speaking of insane scaling, Darius is one of the most insane nonsense champion to ever be released in LOL and it has been that way for decades and nobody thinks is fked up? He always have 4k hp and hits more than any mage could ever do, bleeds you for half of your hp, that is insane to me.
@@Shadow86TheGamer the reason nobody cares is that darius is incapable of closing space, he's forced to shove tons of ms on items/runes/spells to close any gap on you, totaly immobile and needs 5 stacks to actualy deal damage if he goes tank, if he goes full ms, he becomes too squishy to side against the enemy laner most of the time, i'd love to see a rework on darius to give him more skill expression, myb give ms on passive then remove some of the ad/bleed, idk, darius feels complete shit to play against heavy cc/slow comps.
@@tsugako1765 Oh yeah, against fast/dashy heavy cc comps is too slow, no real engagement unless you're close to his face, pretty bad. People like Morgana make him useless but then again, that's the case with most champions, but i feel there's no other tank who can delete you as fast if he manages to get to you considering how tanky he is usually too. Well i guess there's the dog if you let him farm his Q you just die, i guess.
@@Shadow86TheGamer nah darius matchup is easy, granted he has insane scaling stats, but once you know how to play it, its easier to be done Like simple, Dont get hit by q, never give darius 5 stack and go in when his e on cd And no, u no need dash, Ornn, morde, garen, mundo, etc can fight darius Also PHASE RUSH EXISTTTT, dont be a moron, let the wave pushing onto you, farm under turret, get t2 boots, boom darius cant do shit on you in lane, then you can kill him
@@Shadow86TheGamer i'll give you an example, sett, Q gives ms towards enemy champs, ult gives invul to cc, E has cc on diferent side that stun multiple champs, W shields and true damage on a basic skill, sett has better engage, better team fight, better side lane pressure tank to his passive+double aa destroying towers, yet, most people dont care about him, the perception of darius as a "toxic" champion is just cultural at this point, most people at higher elos know that once darius gets 3~4 stacks on you in a team fight, you flash away, he dies, he has to commit to someone, and if that someone escapes, he's useless, in high elo something people do to let him be better is allow darius to get a guaranteed kill with R so he can full stack immediatly. Darius is not bad, nor is he broken, he is just flawed, what he does well is too good, but what other champs would just be okay, he's garbage(i.e. chain cc a sett he still might kill you, illaoi has cc invu in R, kled has a jail free card on passive, etc, darius you miss its usualy over).
Yeh he also says consistently that they are hard to play because if you do a single mistake you are doomed. Them working in solo lanes only shows that they are not punished as they should be for their mistakes
ADC items are delivering 25% crit, in wild rift this is already normal but since the matches last a short time there is no problem with items having 25% crit since the game will end before they get too strong but lol pc matches last longer and this helps ADCs scale much faster
2:14 i've only played tristana botlane ever since I started playing league and now I can't anymore because she is more trash than me. riot, please bring ADCs back to the botlane
Something I noticed as a jgler, when you do something that upsets your adc, the dude would just start following you around, take your camps, and when a fight occurs, he will just watch and won't do anything. This kind of behaviour should be a bannable offense
@@ztriker4406 be glad you got ganked lmao. You can set the tempo, get ninion exp, and platings, but the 300g you lose is where you crack? The jglr could have also just farmed more money instead of risking and coming to gank you. Not bannable at all. Also kills "belonging" to anyone is in the gray, no rules 'really'. Who's to say who will use the gold better? Impossible to measure.
@@mZStarCraft I mean. Being in a solo lane hands them an extra 3000-6000 gold worth of stats because solo lane exp is so hilariously busted. Turns out, the scaling class does well with more resources.
I love how people are so mindbroken by "hurr just freefarm toplane/midlane" meta that when any challenge is given, they start inting. You can literally pick any bruiser into the adc pick and easily kill them with lv3 all-in, if you don't know how to survive to level 3 without dying, you belong in Iron 4, because with equal health bars, melee champ will crush ranged champ 100% of the time. If you think about it, picking adc mid/top is trolling. But hey, it's league, league players don't actually know how to play this game, they will keep locking in their scaling mage into scaling autoattacker and cry on reddit. Ironic, because picking two mages botlane into adc + support makes mages win more often than not, but when that happens, I don't see mage players crying about absolute state of this game. God forbid this game has some variety and forces you to play the game in more ways than HURR MY FAVE CHAMP THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO EVEN PLAY, DUUUUUURH XDDDDDDDDDDDD, in a game with 168 champions, meaning that in every possible match, there's 3756161027103408 possible champion interactions that you maybe didn't even think of before.
I wish they reworked slightly how damage and armour interact with one another and reworked true damage. If you had instead of true damage a damage that scaled with enemy armour, while doing barely no damage to enemies without it, building on-hit/anti-tank would allow you to delete the enemy big bois, while still allowing the enemy tank to do his job, seeing that by forcing you to build around him, it would lower your overall damage against his teammates. Basically the exact oposite of flat lethality.
We already have percentage damages though. I think removing true damage for a mechanic that already mostly exists just removes options in the game especially when a lot of champs use true damage as an important part of their kit like Velkoz. You’d instead have to give him this weird damage based on armor/MR mechanic for shredding tanks, which would make his passive stacked ult useless against squishies.
They need to remove true damage completely because it's annoying to balance out and it's fundamentally the reason why we have so many broken damage items. Because if tanks need massive hp scaling then you need items like liandry's and bork... If they lower hp scaling and remove true damage you overall have a more balanced game, then they can afford to double down on nerfing %armor/magic pen so they can start reworking tanks properly and not having tanks be basically assassin-fighters like they've been for years. Also true damage is the reason you have champions like Sett and Fiora and others that have %max hp big damage skills so they can ruin tanks that hp scale. Riot's inability to balance things out since forever is baffling. They've been stuck in this "big damage loop" that they themselves are creating because they're literally inept at figuring out what's wrong with their game. Each champion nowadays suffers from "main character syndrome", especially the new ones, and it's ruining the game.
@@bohomazdesign725 %pen is stronger against Champions with not that much armor. A Rammus with 800 armor getting it reduced by 40% will still ignore ~70% of all physical damage, but a champion with 80 armor losing 40% of that is cooked
@bohomazdesign725 you did not read well. Armor pen kills squishies faster, too. But he wants mechanic, that ONLY hurts tanks and does 0 dmg to squishy. So you get more rock paper scissors mechanic.
Surprisingly people figured out that EXP is more important than Gold 90% of the time. Riot has also been nerfing gold income across the board: Tower Plating nerfs, Support Item Nerfs, Items that have no right to cost 3000+ costing as much as they do. And last but not least, Mages having a ridiculous amount of Armor while also hitting 200 dmg, 800 range abilities on 5 second CD’s. I’m honestly surprised this didn’t happen sooner. Effectively you troll if you’re not an APC in bot lane, mid lane you can just shoot off a global or semi global ult, and we nerf bruisers every other patch bc someone can’t play into Darius or Aatrox
I think the biggest part is how safe they are. They get such good escape bs for zero reason. Draven's the only adc mid I've seen that I haven't thought is a symptom of this. Make ezreal's e a dash, remove trist's w buffering, and kaisa is just awful no matter where she is
@@dankmemes8254 I'd say dota does this really well, most of their carries are melee characters who do have mobility and the ones that are ranged often have little to no mobility.
You wanna know something insane? Tristana rocket jump is infinitely better than Kha'Zix unevolved AND evolved E. Even if you take the multijumps into account.
I want my Trist mid back 😢. Why did it have to be broken. Man, I love how systemic issues can all be traced back to Riot wanting the game to be faster and shorter. This would never happen if 40-45 minute games were the average, because each role would be allowed to have their powerful moments. It was never designed to be a fast paced game. And I think a lot of problems would be solved if we had longer games again.
Oh yes. But also: it didn't really work as a slow-paced game either. The game is too barebones at its core, slowing it down would just result in half-an-hour monotonous farmfests once again. Perhaps if they went the route of giving players more to do on the map, things could be different. Instead, they chose to radically speed it up, because god forbid they challenge the...lacking...attention span and tunnel vision of an average League player. It's effectively impossible to rollback now, since the game has been gradually made very micro-intense to compensate for and mask its strategic shallowness.Returning meaningful macro aspect would make the game prohibitively difficult (since micro is already stressful), and that just doesn't sell skins. Just go play some other game or become a competitive grass toucher instead, as League sure as hell ain't gonna recover or return to its ancient glory days, because it can't. So they will just shuffle a bunch of numbers around to give different champs and roles some time in the spotlight (simultaneously gimping others to this end, of course) to keep people hooked. That's what League has been for years now. Idk, you could also try doto - it's a strictly superior game at this point - but it rots your soul to the core even harder, so I can hardly recommend it to anyone who doesn't have 450 toxicity resistance and a severe arbitrary complexity addiction
@@abbemartensson3850 if you lose to your runepages and don't take presence or manaflow band sure, but that's you being knowledge checked pre game, and thus is your fault.
@@einjharrelraca this is not the point. ADC currently have too much sustain, and even for a mage with presence+manaflow, you won't be able to poke them out of lane. it's impossible or else you will have zero waveclear because you needed to use all spells on enemy champ and now you're oom. this was a huge problem before riot nerfed all healing runes like 3~4 years ago. the new Abosrb Life rune is completely hypocritical from Riot to implement.
Bro as a support main I'm crying because I can't afford these boots man. 200 is almost 10% of one of my items and roaming feels like shit(cause no boots). Thank you adc's for not only fucking up my lane but now also my item spikes...
Fr I always rush Tier 2 boots because my teams always expect me to roam and rotate. Having to spend the extra 100g is grating. Being able to afford a control ward early makes all the difference in early game map control, but now it's only a luxury that farming solo laners get.
Riot’s original design philosophy for ADCs is that they’re supposed to be the main ranged damage dealers that scale super hard but have the weaknesses of being immobile and squishy in exchange. Back then, 8/10 times you get on top of a ADC, they’re dead, no questions asked. For a long time now, that philosophy got changed/crushed with the majority of ADCs having a mobile/escape tool to enable them being safer. Coupled the durability patch and the increased ADC stats in a (much) earlier patch just exasperates the issue. Being able to pick an ADC into the majority of roles and being able to come out on top has been an issue that won’t really be fixed unless systematic changes are in place or they’re willing to accept changes that’ll impact bot lane performance.
For a long time riot nerfed and gutted adc's because for riot a ranged auto attack champion was not supposed to deal damage... now they have the potential to be a threat and everyone says they are broken when they still die in one shot... the only difference is that they have damage before the game is over, where before the game would probably end before they ware relevant.... there was a reason for Caitlyn lethality for example, because crit caitlyn would not reach the relevant stats to be a champion while lethality made her stronger while id did matter.... and cmon, adc mobility does not make them safe imo... only adc that have a mobility ability that makes it safe is ezreal because it's a blink other adc have short range mobilities and most of them can be stopped in place with CC... also don't forget the fact that one mobility ability = one less damage ability in general...
@@filipepinho3319 weird since the ADCs abused in mid/top rn all have that in common, some form of mobility, this whole situation wouldnt exist if adcs were actually 1shotted, which they arent thanks to said mobility
@@miguelMickSummer literally every adc can be one shotted, that role relies on a support for a reason... And let's see other than ezreal blink any other mobility that adc have can be denied... Play adc Vs an assassin for example like zed, yes he might have a good time before lvl 6... After that what good does that the adc have a mobility if there isn't a support there to cc the assassin.., he's just good as dead.... Play as a melee champion, well yes you'll have a hard lane, but honestly not impossible to win, I've seen that more than the adc win that lane, actually don't even remember a game where adc top winning, and just dying over and over with their mobility.... Meanwhile adc bot lane also have to deal with champions that are not supposed to be playing there for a long time but no one really talks about that, only when adc are on the other lanes that people talk
They still have those weaknesses, what's stopping you from picking something like Renekton mid? oh right, you're bronze who doesn't know how to walk out of enemy's range nor when you powerspike
@@filipepinho3319 a good zed won't give adc a good time even pre-6, him being melee champion makes him stronger. He can literally all in at level 3 to force adc to back off. Wait for cooldowns and do this one more time and adc dies like a typical bronze who picks ranged champ in mid/top. If you cannot imagine winning this, it's because you haven't suffered thousands of games against teemo top, not my problem though, ranged champions are easy to kill.
I've been playing a hella ton of AP Malphite in silver and I personally think I stopped everyone here playing ADC after they all get one shot over and over
The times i've dealt with Tristana. Im seriously going insane. Tristana top, tristana mid, tristana this, tristana that. MY FUCKING GOD. I WOULD KILL FOR A SINGLE VAYNE MATCHUP RATHER THAN SEE THAT GODDAM FLUFFY GOBLIN AGAIN. Im tired of seeing my fucking tower get to 1/4 of hp in a single bomb+ some AA's while also clearing my wave due to the aoe dmg. Of her fucking mobility reset on kill. Please make it stop
To factor this in: people generally prefer playing ranged because range is a form of defense. In a game in which everyone oneshots, compromising your team is well worth the possibility of surviving. If not being hit is your only option because one skill shot means you get a death timer, of course everyone goes ranged.
This feels like a non-solution. Basically, we're letting the same things happen again and again. Buffs tanks. Nerf them and buff marksmen. Nerf them, buff assassins. And it's not so much a class problem than a role problem to me. I haven't played LoL for long, and I never played ranked. But from my perspective, it's like nobody is willing to question the whole team composition meta that is either enforced or destroyed. Can we talk about mages bot or jungle? The characters that can be both top or jungle? That one offmeta counterpick that will anihilate your lane? (Say hi to ranged tops) I think that this game is way to complex to enforce the rules of its meta, even though it should be kept under control. ...or maybe I'm just craving for a less competitive MOBA that's not as chaotic as Arena.
why cant botlane level just as fast as the other lanes, and have the botlane champs balanced around this? it seems like a fundamental issue to have champs geared towards leveling less in one situation over another.
@@nashred what situation? Tristana being a hard counter to kassadin? Ranged champs being strong level 1? You being too bronze to space correctly until level 3 where you can use 3 abilities to all in a ranged champ who doesn't do any more damage at level 3 than it did at level 1 due to your melee champion having more armor and higher base attack and 3 abilities made for fighting unlike ADC's who often only have 1-2 abilities that actually do damage, because they're balanced around autoattacking? Even with casters like lucian (again, he only has 2 abilities that actually do damage), I had people just walk out of Q damage...
You see, my favorite game was during S3 when my team was failing practically everywhere and our only wincondition was "In Mordekaiser we trust". There was quite a feeling when the whole team hopes that 3/1/1 Mordekaiser, who has been farming for the entire game, suddenly becomes a 1v5 machine and wins the game solo... and it did happen. Nowdays however, the whole early-mid-late game powerspikes are a total mess due to a fact that most ADCs are strong in the every phase of the game and all it takes to take out your fed Darius is to have Leona stunlock him while ADC just does a few autos and boom - the D-threat is gone. I know it can be quite frustrating to play when your champ literally does nothing early, sometimes only having a vague impact on the game in midgame too, however, this is why those champions were rewarded with an absurd lategame. In my opinion it was far more interesting to have a champion like old Patheon with absurdly strong early to mid and non-existent late instead of current Vayne that can be an issue on every stage of the game. And it much more healthy for the game when champions have clear weaknesses. What was the weakness of Ezreal during early seasons? - his lack of damage until 3 to 4 items, it was extremely rare to see Ezreal getting fed early. Nowdays? - player's lack of skill to hit anything, that's literally the sole weakness right now. And the worst issue - we don't have the late game again. Early and midgame damage are buffed to the point that midgame became the lategame, so it's literally pointless to pick anything late-focused other than ADCs. See Qiyana and Lucian? - those are actual lategame champs now.
I do have a complaint. They're not ADCs. They're marksmen. Now that they're no longer caged in bot lane they can actually affect the map by playing mid rather than being stuck 2 levels lower than everyone else because you had to share a lane. If you know which marksmen are typical mid laners then you can still predict draft. It's a classic skill diff.
Theyre also 1000x more vulnerable in mid lane, especially with the lane changes. If you cant identify when a champion's abilities are on CD and capitalize on their positioning.. then you are fundamentally fucking up at the basics of League. Either your laner isnt coordinating the lane well, or your jungler isnt identifying their opportunities. Ganks don't even always have to kill. If Tristana Ws away because a jungler entered the lane, then cool. That's gold they miss, and free chances for the laner to set up a better wave state.
the dude who wrote the essay is spot on imo, for the game to be fun, every role needs clear strengths and weaknesses, and we should require a balanced team comp to win. Adcs need a weaker early game, but they also need to be able to survive the early game to not be completely useless. I won't write an essay myself, but basically they need to be nerfed early so that they need the help of the support to lane, their late game needs to be the hardest scaling. Support, the role who has the least gold income, should not be able to deal that much damage without gold, so basically : they need to remove mage supports from the meta and balance those champs for midlane, as they can abuse adc's early too hard if the early of adcs was as weak as it should be the overall damage of the game should be reduced a bit, as the one shot meta makes the adcs late game too weak. those two things imo should allow the adc's early to be nerfed in a way that would make them shit in solo lane but still playable bot
The reason is it is an all tank meta and adcs are the role that can kill them. Mage don't have the damage and assassin case game flip and fall off. So late scaling champion are better. This because bounty caught up systems push all other roles out. Assassin can't end early do to 5min tower thing. All they have to do to fix it is remove caught up systems.
As a Diamond ADC main I don't often feel the need to be the "main character". I don't mind my teammates and even SP taking kills (AND sometimes even farms) as long as they know what to do. I'd gladly accept that over losing a game. Of course it's more satisfying (and makes your job easier as an ADC) if you get fed and pampered, then goes on to carry the game doing tons of DMG and stuff but... as long as I get to play and win that's all that matters (and it's not gonna be like like that in every game anyway). Such mindset helped me to become more chill and focused. Simply put, if my team hoard resources but can't profit for the win, it's their skill issue BUT if I get fed but can't do sh*t, it's my skill issue. A fed support can wreak havoc on their entire team while making sure their ADC gets to farm and scale.
yeah lets talk about boots nerf - plated costs more gold and gives less damage reduction with what was it less armor? - merc costs more give less mr and less tenacity? - berserkers not changed at all still 1.1k gold with a t3 version of them that is legit just a completed item
honorable mention for kraken slayer an item made for adc's ends up being nerfed only for the class the item was designed for xD... riot should just nerf all items and runes all across the board and end this damage stack meta tbh!
@filipepinho3319 I will never forgive riot for doing that exact thing with lethal tempo. "Let's make an adc conqueter equivalent, then make it EIGHT TIMES BETTER ON MELEE CHAMPIONS". and yes, I'm salty as fuck about that to this day. That number? Eight times? Yeah that's not an exaggeration either. It gave 8x the AS to melees that it did to ranged for the first 4 months it was there.
As a melee champion you shouldn't be building boots first item so it's not relevant to you winning a lane against ranged champion, just stop taking free autoattacks, and build some actual damage because any melee champ can all in at lv3 and easily kill even with doran's shield. To continue your lead, you need damage, 1-3 items depending on the bruiser, not plated boots, noob.
As a Assassin main it is kinda ridiculous how tanky adcs get when they are fed or just ahead in lvl. I often cant 1v1 an fed adc while also being hyperfed on talon, esspecially when they get some sort of defensive item (BT, GA, etc.)
League has been a fiesta before this adc fiesta... the main problem is the damage stack the game have, even a tank is able to deal lots of damage... For riot to fix ADC role they also have to fix all those issues with the game, otherwise we'll end up with the ADC dead role. For starting items and runes should be significantly nerfed and adjusted... plus a item that have mainly offensive stats shouldn't offer at the same time defensive stats, or they need to balance like 80% offensive, 10% defensive, 10% utility... I think the item passives in general are okish, with some items have ridiculous passives turning defensive stats items into offensive... and the game also needs more actives in items... riot is trying to tell us players we don't have fingers to play this type of game for far too long with this type of decisions as well champions that do it all for the player... and honestly flash I would severely nerf that thing, the game already have way too much mobility without this anyway! The game for a long time is missing strategy depth and the skill outplay creativity of players, the game currently is just lets see who one shots first... and this is where the current adc issue started, when they buff the role now they are back into the game and because some of them have mobility or ways to stay alive and counter melee champions they just win by outscalling, they don't even need to get kills, just be oppressive in lane...
I would say main character syndrom isn`t an ADC exclusive thing. When the game was balanced around more defined roles a lot of people where crying because they felt like they can`t influence the game enough if they pick one of the lower damage roles like tanks or supports. So over time ADCs have been weakend and everyone else got a lot of damage buffs to a point where especially in low elo no team would play around their ADC anymore. ADC as a role is designed to have a team which tries to protect them, but every other champ nowadays is designed to act as a carry in their own right. You talk like the current ADC power level is a thing we have never seen before. But we already had seasons during which ADCs had 25% crit on items and crits dealt 200% damage as a base line increased to 250% with IE.
@@thatoneweebguy6379 assassin's? They are the worst class in the entire game lol. The only assassin that can do something currently it's Leblanc and it's because of her kit and not because she is an assassin
I swear i used to say it before, ever since the changes to bot lane exp vs solo lane exp, riot has had a fundamental misunderstanding on how to balance ADCs... the problem was never that the chamions were bad, adc champs were basically always good, even when we had the bruisers bot meta, that only happened because bruisers had better kits and better base stats to deal with how bad bot lane was. the problem was that, the role fcking sucked, having to sit bot and watching the whole game just end before u can even get to level 9 or complete 1 item is just fcking insane. instead of addressing the issue of the ROLE sucking, riot addressed a non-existent issue of CHMAPIONS sucking, adc builds nowadays are just so insanely strong, the items are crazy good, the champs that were already good, are now even better and the adc role still sucks fundamentally, the suckiness just gets covered up by how strong the champs are...
Fucking hilarious that you think other lanes haven't been dealing with this. Fucking new blood players don't even know what the fuck they're talking about. Mid lane used to be exclusively for ADC until burst mages and assassins pushed them out.
7:00 as usual, high elo weirdos are so close to the real issue while missing the point. "Main Character Syndrome" is a fundamental problem with League as a WHOLE. High elo players who talk out of their ass, coaches who only exist to grift money off people, and bad faith youtubers giving advice have imbued into League this notion that "You have to win the game yourself" and it made everyone live up their own ass. If you have an entire enemy team of 3 adcs, and you arent prioritizing some form of armor like thornmail, sunfire, or deadmans.. then you arent being a TEAM player. Its not that ADCs are main characters and ruining the game.. its that PLAYERS are their own main characters with this "I have to carry" mentality. No one wants to be the guy who gets carried. No one wants to be the "support" and work strategically because it goes against what weirdos and grifters have told people for over a decade. You got 3 ADCs on the enemy team? Lock in Rammus and fucking WALK at them. Build your comp and strategy better. For gods sake, we live in a world where Baus is genuinely debated to be a troll or not. Because people fundamentally do not understand that you dont have to be a dick swinging carry to win the game. Main character syndrome is a PLAYER issue, not a champion issue. Its the same reason the community is so fucking toxic. They have been indoctrinated with this idea of carrying. But when everyone is super, nobody is.
True, I'm stuck in low elo (no, I'm not gonna blame teammates, I'm just bad player lol) and for years I'm hearing: "In iron/bronze/silver/gold pick X,Y,Z champions, snowball and win by yourself because you're playing 1v9." And I'm sick and tired of this "good advice" because community grow to have that main character syndrome that they are alone, they are the only player that can win game and WILL NOT play with team because "rest of the team is useless" while enemy team will just stick together, take drakes, take baron, pick up players that just wander alone and just push slowly to win. I can't count ammount of games that could be won if players were smart enough to actually stick together and play together instead of going solo everywhere and just being killed by whole enemy team. League was, is and will be team game, even Baus just split pushing lanes while being 0/20 is more useful for team than some player with overinflated ego and main character syndrome getting 3-4 kills just to die and give enemy gold from bounty and repeating this over and over. And why? Because Baus puts pressure on the enemy, if they continue to push and trying to fight then Baus will just keep pushing till Nexus is destroyed, if they go back then rest of team will pick objectives or push other lane while that overinflated ego player at some point will secure less and less kills while dying more and more.
This issue wasnt before because the game was a lot slower. Tanks could actually survive a fight and dps champions werent dealing 5k with a combo to an unfocused target. Make the game slower and adc could be back to their weak early. I understand that no one wants 1 hour games, but in my opinion, its a lot worse than 4 15 mins games. Win or lose, did you even played that game? Especially ranked. Those games should be even more thight, because you should play as your best pick, after all. Durability update did nothing in that matter, maybe a slower early game, but when it comes to mid and late game, its a huge question mark if it gets there for a long while. Make the game slower by nerfing all the damage coming from items, especially tank items, the game can be restored easily, but no, its easier to slap some numbers with damage on an item and call it a day. Its so annoying seeing how "ONE SHOT ASSASIN BUILD" is such a wow, cool, move on, but when a tank survives 5 people more than 5 seconds, its an entire reddit post about it. Durability will come brom how much damage you deal, not how much tanky you are. Thats why assasin Aatrox was a thing for a long time. Deal huge damage, heal based on that damage.
Things started to go that way when lethality was added and assasins could oneshot with a component. Previously, a good assasin could oneshot in an Even situation and any assasin could oneshot if fed
as someone who's been playing since before the first ranked season: this is hilarious. the original setup was ADC solo mid and it took a couple years before players realized that mages need both gold and levels to do well but adc's only needed gold to be relevant and thus the meta was born. top and jungle becoming the varied mix of tanks and late-game supports was a side-effect and not specifically intentional. i guess riot has just made enough changes and made enough new characters that adc's are more like the mages of old (there are so many badly designed champs now). also... Tristana mid dominating was one of the main reasons they remade her into an AD only character. her old kit was bonkers powerful if you ran full AP and took her mid. her old E was basically Ignite on a smaller cooldown and with like an 80-90% AP ratio
Yes, BUT >Mages literally dominating bot lane and have higher win rate than adcs there, yet adcs are the only ones who are on the bottom of that list >assassins dominate mid lane and adcs also have lowest win rates in mid lane >top lane is still tanks and ap/ad bruisers, with adcs having low rates What is this video even talking about? Apart from "high ranked player comments" (and those players are not shown at all) you literally don't have a single statistics to back your claims. And for the records, I'm not even an adc main.
Higher win rate mean nothing if they are played 3 games out of 10 000 000 op champs are not with the highest winrate usually they are the highest pickrate and if they are both they are beyond broken. Burst Mages are countered with one mr item (except mage from season 1 billion like hwei) adcs with all armor you want still deal damages
1) ADCs have lower winrate cause everyone plays them. Meanwhile mages are only played by the few who are good at those champs AND wann take them botlane. ADCs are played by good and bad ADCs, mages are only played by good mage players. 2) Assassins are a direct response to ADCs infesting midlane, because Assassins are literally designed to kill squishy ADCs, that's their job.
Idea: what if each selected role gives a specific buff and debuff in lane? For example, you choose bot, you get an attack speed buff, you choose support you get CDR, reduced mana cost, you choose top you get defensive boosts, you choose jungle you get movement speed boost, and so on? Wouldn't that kinda balance out things? Sure, it'd probably shake the whole thing but it could be an interesting way of keeping things in check
@@yoch5383tbf that's because there is an inherent attack damage that you start the game with that scales up as you level. Where as even if you pick a mage you'll always have no ability power starting out that doesnt come directly from runes (which is like pennies compared to the ad you get).
idk if this is a regional problem or what but it actually has been the exactly opposite for me, where people will go 5 top/jungle. top laners have been running rampant in my games, and it not even ranked, its norms. like, why??? please explain.
Give adc champs less mr and armor while giving all melee champs more armor? Unsure of that is long term fix but that is the simpöest, and well league community is trying to optimize the game so much you honestly need whole roster rework in order to calm this down
Its not that hard to fix this, just make players select only champs from their designated lane, done. The thing is, this would take all of the fun of the game, but would reduce drastically the trolling and make the game more fair.
Riot: You want a Vayne nerf? Here! Play this new and exciting champion with a 3-hit passive, Gnar + Akshan Q, A dash that becomes an invisibility (and it resets!), a Graves R on a basic ability and an AOE camille R. At this point Riot is just TRYING AND MAKING us uninstall
I will never understand why people are okay with mage botlaners being consistently better than ADCs in their own roles, toplaners being better than supports in their own roles, etc. but the moment ADCs are viable for more than a patch or two people freak out. It's almost like it sucks to be underleveled, and the playerbase going mid or top is a natural reaction. Sadly, Rito is just gonna nerf ADCs and their items instead of actually fixing botlane.
What? The secon ADCs are not destroying everything at half an item, ADC players start crying and won't stop until they get buffed so hard the best champion in every single role is at least one ADC, dunno where you live or play the game tbh :'D
@@LucRio448 Champions like Brand, Karthus, Seraphine, and Ziggs have consistently outperformed ADCs for literal years. It is only recent that they aren’t flourishing botlane, and yet they still manage to have a positive winrate as APCs as of right now across most skill brackets. In general, champions like Lucian mid have consistently been outperformed across all skill brackets by Akshan, among many other champions as well. Pretty consistently, ADC mid and toplaners have a horrific winrate as well, so it is not nearly as oppressive as people think, as ADCs cannot opt into defensive items, for the most part. As to where I’m playing, my BF is masters, so I’ve been jungling and supporting in that ELO for about a year, and let me tell you, it has never been easier to gank mid and top. But okay. Have fun with your 43% winrate Lucian mid, it’s tooootally OP bro.
This is will always be a "problem" because of champs like Quinn and Teemo who are marksmen by all means and could even be played bot but they are just built better for other lanes. As far as champs like these exists the marksman role will never be bound to bot. Remember people lanes weren't a thing until people just agreed it's the best strat, nothing needs to be streamlined and the game can evolve over time. Do I like that I'm fighting Camille support? No but it's whatever cause I can play Jhin top or Ryze bot and make them work. I personally like how much experimentation is possible in this meta and I would say to keep it like this for a few patches before shaking things up again completely
To be fair currently the main issue is how to nerf flex adc and not go back to split 1 when adc felt really weak. I would say a creative solution would be working around supports since they are unique to bot, not buffing them but giving them more early items to considerably strengthen the adc. A lot of supports currently take selfish support item (celestial/realmspike, bloodsong). Still it would increase the impact of supports not adc and again cause the issue of supports being laning phase adc. Its honestly tough but it's the only way to help bot adc agency without running into the meta we have now.
DUDE!!! The whole reason ADC was bullshit first split (and a good bunch of the last years) was because of supports being broken. You can't have them both being good because then the Game becomes a Best bot wins and the other 2 lanes (JG is a completely different matter) become irrelevant
As a support main I learned that being a coward in lane is useless because you need to take the lead early in order to get your adc stronger. This changes destroyed that and my game style that was hella effective (waste all my resources effectively in a hyper aggressive gameplay leaving my adc in a fresh state and comfortable to take a 1v2 and win when I back). As for right now, the adc who decides to be aggressive first wins and that made most supports useless because of it. Reverting the changes not only will force adc players to stay in the botlane, but also rely on the support more instead of blindly going for the aggresive play regardless if the support is or is not in a good state or position to follow. Adcs should NEVER be the ones taking thr iniciative. That's the support's role. We are meant to set the situation for you to get in with an advantage, and forcing your support into a bad fight is terrible. It was way better for everyone when the ADC had to understand the situation and not confuse poke and pressure with an all-in, but as for right now since their early is so strong they force an all-in, which is hard to follow if you aren't already preventively waiting for it, and hard to respond when is done by the enemy lane. It becomes a fiesta and skill is meaningless. Is even worse when you get your adc midlaner mad because you roamed and they started a fight for no reason and somehow is your fault, or when thry blame you for soaking their exp after showing up to avoid the enemy laner or the jungler to commit in their all-in (half of the work of a support is to apply pressure even if is by just showing up intentionally). Ego players are the doom of the ADC role, and the doom of supports who actively try to NOT stick with solo laners alone because of it.
i stopped taking the game srsly when riot reworked graves this champion was supposed to be an adc, but very few remember/know this . Riot made him a jungler by mistake
There should be a mechanic in the champ select where you can swap roles as well as swap champ select placement so the person who is adc is the only one who can choose an adc champion. Ex: if you’re top and try to go jhin, the character will simply be locked out and can only be used for the adc therefore making you either lock in your lane or lane swap with someone so you can play the adc in bot and someone can use a melee champ in the lane you’re running from. “But how could that affect the actual game when they can just swap lanes in the game” while yes that could happen, that would mean the bot on the opposing team would be stuck with a melee champ and a support of sorts who would go against an adc and a support. We all know who should win that matchup. Sadly this would never work. It’s too complex and it would just cause a lot more que dodging. The idea in itself is simply flawed as well.
What if Riot do that the champion with the support item doesn't exists upon sharing experience. That would be nice, so adc and support can match level with those unskilled mid and top players that only beat your ass cause they are 3 levels ahead.
Really wish they made a Cull-like ADC item that acts like World Atlas. That way, it incentivizes farming and scaling and it also cannot be abused by solo laners.
@@Fadlife_League It will discourage Supports from roaming randomly and making random plays around the map, hoping that something works. It's the reason why tanky engage Supports are overpowered right now. They can roam and start fights around the map with no drawback.
Thing is, we've always kinda had this in the game for years. Varus, Vayne, Ezreal, Kai'sa and even Jhin have seen play outside of botlane for many years.
It's a never-ending cycle, if you've been around long enough, you're remember that ADC's were a joke and absolutely no one played them. To the point where all elo were using ziggs, a mage. As the main character ADC. Generally, the balance team haven't put enough effort into balancing with the meta. In simpler term. If you don't like the meta now, wait 5 minutes and complain about the new meta.
As someone who's bad at the game and just wants to play ornn top, farm for a while then get to be big and beefy, this meta is the absolute worst. I'm pushed to my tower, killed under my tower, ignored by my jungler cause my lane is weak, then (rightfully) blamed for letting my laner get out of control, with no hope of my being able to outscale them
This would disproportionately effect botlane ADC compared to solo lane, ya know, the opposite of what they need to nerf lol. If anything they could do a marksman wide shift to make their level scaling on durability even worse, but then they’d probably need to slightly buff botlane gold to maintain parity. Less armor, MR, and health for all marksman but they can either buff their gold-scaling or gold-income, but gold-scaling buffs would still help solo-lane so they should probably very lightly buff botlane gold from minions (also discourages ADCs from early skirmishing/rotating).
What if, just hear me out, let adcs play mid and top while nerfing their lane-ing just to make it fair Aaaaaannd make it so that tank support and enchanters go bot so that its a relatively low kill lane… prolly giving more power to the jungler in the process… this seems like a very huge change but the game feels very stale rn and Id be into it
When I first started playing League around 3 years ago, I read the support role and it said that the role was there to help adc farm during laning. I question that definition immediately when I saw a Vayne top working so well, then beat the rest of us including my own adc being 3 levels behind. So I asked people about adc in top lane and people said it was too vulnerable to ganks, but... what about adc that can wave clear well or have high mobility? Also people said it was vulnerable to combos, such as Camille, but from what I see is that you can just... play at lv6 while they play at lv4. Well I guess we realize that now. I really think it already making not much sense from a long time ago, not now.
There is an issue where it is really hard to make a perfect balancing. Many characters don't go into perfect buckets. Heck, not even the buckets are exactly those defined by their roles. There is bruiser, juggernaut, marksman (which is what usually is the "ADC" but also some APCs that sometimes go on bot), enchanter, assassin, etc. And I'd even say there are subcategories that, at points, do or should be shared by two main roles (e.g., artillery mages aren't the same as mage assassins). And because of that, even if there are some items that are prescient to a role (like the Crit items for AD marksmen), there are other units that also take advantage of those, like Tryndamere or Garen - and those also get indirectly nerfed because of that. And because in many cases, SoloQ is a play on the META (as in Most Effective Tactic Available), the moment marksmen stop being the top dog in all roles, we'll start seeing unintended effects. Maybe Teemo starts going back to botlane, as it can bully any and all AD marksmen by denying gold. Or ADC Kassadin, or Karthus, or even Ziggs. Those will pick up the moment someone takes it (be it on Korean/Chinese Challenger/eSports, or an influencing influencer) and destroy balance again. And as Stephen Mortdog said some times, at many points it's just a real small thing that can hardly be checked. Maybe some of these issues can be 0.05s of animation play, which make or break a character. Or giving it a -1 gold per minion makes the character useless. It's very difficult todo esto, and as much as we love to joke about 200+ years of experience of the development team, actually getting the right solution is nowhere as easy as finding the actual problem (which is also nowhere as easy as finding that something is wrong with it).
As a master jungler, I was telling people for seasons that adcs are the most broken champs in the game. Games are decided by botlane but when I used to play top, ranged tops against good people was pure suffering. They have way too strong items and for some reason riot keeps buffing them for no reason
i think is the emblematic of a bigger systemic game design flaw at riot. this was touched on but its more then just adc, to many characters have to much built into their kit. old leauge back when every skill was simply and easy, characters fell much harder into an assigned role, tanks being tanks cc being cc and damage being damage, ect. but many things have contributed to all the charaters meshing more into eachother over the years. one is increasing utility skills, things like cc and dashes, in older leauge having cc was a much more rare thing leading to it being stronger, same with mobility however most new champs come out with mobility and cc in their kits. another would be charaters having overloaded kits, not just mobility and cc but ranged options, zoning aoe, lifesteal and substain ect, they have such adaptive kits they end up having no real weakness and to many places they thrive in. you also see game design changing factors, a huge one was when riot tried to speed up leauge games, by doing so they ended up making slow burn champs worse, this includes adcs, and tanks who both thrive in the late game, something that is rarely hit. a reduction of rolls is a huge issue, to much damage and the assassin roll is removed, to much base tankiness and bruisers and tanks are removed, we need more weakness and defined play styles for charaters. lastly riot need to stop adding items that brake limitations on champs, a prime example was when galeforce and stride braker were first given movement actives, and ended up giving charaters defined by their lack of mobility a gap closer, it make darius and garren awful because they lost their major weakness. heck even mana is a useless stat now it was implemented to balance champions but now so many have no mana that do highdamage and spam skills, that making mana be a real resource would brake old champs. tldr the game need better defined classes and playstyles letting champs have greater weakness and limitations making them play distinctly, or atleast in a roll.
Almost like solo lane exp is the problem and handing someone a 3-6 level lead for THE ROLE THEY PICKED, is a bit much. 3000-6000 gold worth of stats for free is pretty fucking busted. Like yeah, what you are seeing is adcs being handed 150-300 cs worth of free stats for the lane they are in, just like the solo lanes have been getting to enjoy. You all laughed when the 0/13 irelia missed her entire kit and afk ran down the 12/0 jinx and her support from full hp and screamed "you should lose that fight jinx, you're down 4 levels on her". And now that adcs found a solution to how unfair that shit is, it's a problem?
its actually the fact that adcs win prio against anything so they can rotate with their jungler very easily, adcs dont scale with levels they scale with items, where are u guys getting this crap from?
@DurkzB Sure. Adc dont benefit from more ad, more as, more armor, more hp and better abilities. XD Delusions. And if you are losing lane prio to an adc, you fucked up hard. Their waveclear isnt THAT strong, and the moment a mage has lost chapter their waveclear is gone.
@@einjharrelraca yes adc dont benefit from base stats from leveling up as much as they do from items thats why their powerspikes are on 2-3 items and not on lvl 9 when their main ability is lvl 5, and the waveclear part is half true, thats why the 2 most played solo lane adcs (tristana and corki) have more waveclear than any mage you dork
@@DurkzB yup. tristana doesn't benefit from getting more points in her q, which gives her more attack speed, or getting more range from her passive. XD Lucien doesn't benefit from more damage on his q, and a lower cooldown on his q, allowing him to proc his passive for double autos more often, nope not at all. Smolder doesn't benefit from getting points in his q, which lowers the cooldown and allows him to stack up faster. Varus definetly doesn't benefit from getting more points in his q, allowing him to pop blights more often, or increasing his onhit magic damage from w if he goes that rout, and getting more ad and ap from his passive when he kills thing. Vayne certainly doesn't benefit from getting more points in her q allowing her to increase her mobility by large amounts and damage, OR getting more points in her w, allowing her to deal more %max hp true damage. XD This is all ignoring the extra 10-20 ad they get from levels, and the extra attackspeed they get from level either. And finally, the big one. yup, they certainly dont get much benefit from GETTING THEIR ULTIMATES 2 FULL MINUTES FASTER THAN NORMAL XD.
@@einjharrelraca ok you might just be brain damaged, i didnt say they dont benefit, i said their power spikes are on their items no their levels, or your 225 stacks if youre smolder, a full build lvl 10 caitlyn is a lot scarier than a lvl 18 caitlyn with 3 items
On wild rift, adcs also are lane bullies (kalista, vayne and varus on top lane; lucian, tristana, ezreal on both top and mid). However, the adc role is currently considered the weakest role because we have a "one shot" meta. Tanks, bruisers and assassins are largely considered the best roles atm.
Being in bot lane as an adc doesn’t really make sense from a resource standpoint. Why be in the lane with the leaf resources, when you require the most?
Because in old league ADCs did not need to put points into their ability like mages. They just scaled better off of gold while others scaled better off of level and exp. So you could be under leveled but still have 3 items and be the strongest on the map now the game has forgotten these basic principles and we are in the state of league we have today so I get permad
@@nashred if you weren't bronze, you'd know that melee champs are still stronger than adc's at level 3. >b-b-ut I am a moron and took free damage for past 2 levels, I can't all in now! yeah maybe don't take free damage then? Use your brain. You said it yourself, others scale better off level and exp, so gold is not relevant. Is it not possible to scale off level and exp against a ranged enemy without taking damage? Holy shit, league players are so dogshit.
Because in early stages on league mages were really strong in mid game far stronger than adc in mid game nowadays midgame or late game is basicqlly the same for adcs and burst Mages are now useless or adcs have better power spike
What counters ADC’s? Things that can get on them, and kill them. That’s ADC’s that are all over the place, and mostly Hyper Mobile. That’s what they need to target. 🎯 In addition the champions that counter them are not being played often, or are weak currently. True assassins (or old true assassins) Zed, Leblanc, Talon, Katerina, Fizz, Akali. In addition, control Mages paired with Tanks. Should be able to heavily limit a Marksmen’s options. However, due to the extreme excess of tank busting currently in the game, they are unable to be utilized in the fashion they were originally designed for and capable of from Season 2-4
So TLDR Tanks and assassins are not strong enough in the current game environment to answer ADC’s. Tanks because there is too much %HP and true damage in the game. Assassins because they been nerfed heavily, or entirely redesigned to intentionally slow down their play styles. Give ADC extreme mobility, was the real issue that exasperated all of this to
Riot trolled with giving adc's Collector. Why even bother grouping up to get Elder Dragon buff when they could just rush collector 1rst item and spray n pray hoping the execution procs in a situation where they probably wouldn't have calculated the precise damage to kill you. You see shit like Cait/Dravens go like 0-5 in lane and then they build Collector and press R for the rest of the map to 'assist' their smurf duo with a near-guranteed execution on something that probably wouldn't have killed in the first place.
@@templeofdelusion Nah you probably abuse collector because you don't know the precise damage potentials to kill someone. It's a lazy hamburger helper item lol I can only imagine Riot making a commercial out of it. "Tired of being bad and the enemy always leaving with low health? Introducing Collector, an AUTO EXECUTE button! Now you TOO can become Doublelift". See back in my day in Season 1-5 you had to actually calculate your armor/magic penetration in your head and after many games you developed a 2nd hand nature for it. That's one of the huge factors that seperated the average from the great. That's not there anymore if you build that item.
@@templeofdelusion you know I'm right lol I can't tell if you're just trollposting or not. I've already hit diamond season 4 and 5 back when it mattered if you really care. look up Dancing Eel. I did it without the billion coaches/youtube guides and overwolf addons you kids abuse nowadaays lmfao
if you buff mage base armor and assassin base lethality that will kick em out real quick. ive been abusing it when i get off-roled to mid and the problem is the survivability. Change their kits to be better early and scale less so ads keep their late game firepower
The problem is ADC mains cry like hell when their role isn't blatently overpowered and the literal core of the game in the early; mid and lategame like they were in Season 2. When in reality; the ADC is a lategame class, and is the glass cannon damage. It's supposed to require support in exchange for that power. If you want to be the main character, you can't be the main character for every arc; there's 4 other characters on your team. 4 other players.
I mean it's the same issue with Mages, but unlike ADC, Mages wants to go mid but they cannot go mid because it's a lane shared with Assassins, and Assassins are extremely strong in lane. So Riot decided to push mage to Support/Jungle/Top/Bot, which I dislike about it because assassins aren't pushed anywhere and are stuck Mid lane.
heres a hot take: restrict champ select pools based on the damn role you picked. you cant lock in lucian mid and vayne top if they arent even available to pick.
Unfortunately that would restrict player creativity Its creativity that created the jungle role, the ad/sp bot, top, jg,mid & support pantheon (depends on the season for viability), CAPS' vayne mid. Creating a limitation on role and position will give you a situation like Overwatch, which no one likes.
@@FallenWings no one liked the 6 tank meta in overwatch either but they dont ever see those again thanks to role restriction, and things like support pantheon are why people dont want to play marksmen in the botlane in the first place. creativity is not inherently a good thing. "everybody's so creative! see the veigar bot and master yi supp duo? arent you glad everyone's allowed to take anyone anywhere? who cares if they dont normally fit those roles! you never know if something is viable until after the game! or you can learn exactly why they belong where they belong and never anywhere else, but whos gonna make you? see how differently different you're allowed to be as if there arent 9 other actual human beings spending between 30 minutes to an hour of their lives trying to see a victory screen just once tonight?"
how would that work? its not like the bot lane will not go to mid after the first tower anyways, adcs will gain less gold and experience and in the mid? if that happens pro play games would take so much longer
@@Pariston42 roaming can still be a thing, But when someone who queues for top gets to champ select, none of the marksmen will be available. That also means that there will be no yasuo adc to worry about. The goal is not to chain people to their turrets, but to keep the matchups in the early game consistent.
Disclaimer: A wee bit of yapping occurs below, am open to discussion just be nice about it I have been saying fleet should be nerfed for years and not just for the reason of ADCs being so strong atm... I just think there is something fundamentally wrong with the rune. My biggest complaint is that it grants champs that are balanced around having poor health sustain and as such are supposed to require skill and selective trading early and then removes their main downside(The most blatant offender of this is Akali mid just face tanking in trades and still out sustaining mages with fleet, but plenty of other champs do this as well). Unfortunately the only way to deal with the issue of fleet sustain being too strong is to nerf the healing numbers or charge speed of the fleet attack, yet ultimately this places it in a pretty similar spot to where lethal tempo ended up where it is either the most broken and dumb thing in the game, or it is completely useless. I Definitely agree with Azaaps take that the precision tree as a whole is too strong and while i would like to see PTA and Conqueror stay relatively the same(maybe even buff them a bit to make them more viable alternatives) considering they are both so iconic and deeply rooted in league, I think the entire precision tree needs to be reworked. This isn't as relevant but i honestly think the resolve tree needs some reworks/fine tuning as well given that aside from second wind/bone plating/demolish its just kind of useless Note: This is my perspective on the issue as a high emerald/low diamond level player... I am aware that I am by no means an expert at this game, I simply wanted to provide my opinion
I'm no expert, but i think it's pretty easy to spot the problem - Riot wants different roles to fulfill the different lanes. However, the ONLY thing defining that is literally your queue matchup and the support item. Due to that, you can have anything happen to mid and top as long as they win and they could even act like the same exact lane, except mid may prefer more champions that can escape ganks by movement abilities. Basically the only roles set in stone are jungle and support and the bot would prefer to be a good mix with its support, but there's no other thing defining the single player lanes or bot.
It's funny how nobody can agree on what is wrong with the game. You have videos like this saying how strong ADCs are and how it's ruining the game. Meanwhile other people are saying how we are in a tank meta. People wonder why Riot never fixes things when even the playerbase can't decide on what is actually too strong.
People are finally realizing the killing spree fiesta lane (or the poke mage "sp" lane) doesn't suit for scaling champs at all. And by having assassins not being able to rush down any squishy laner since lv3 like the old league, mid has become the real scaling lane.
@@chill_bloby sounds like me dealing with invaded when I get off rolled to jungle. I swear there is a 100% chance I get invaded level 1. Every single time without fail. It's gotten so bad, I just naturally start my enemies red buff now.
In Season 1 Worlds, the German team started creating this ADC + Support strategy, because ADCs need items more than levels, so they play with support to gain more gold. I think waves shouldn't be the same until Herald spawns
I think the best thing they could do is just give every ADC a worse early/mid game but better late game. To put it into simple terms I want every ADC to feel like Kayle: practically useless early, looking for openings to get more ahead mid game, and then an actual menace for the team to play around late game as they're supposed to.
Or they could adjust their kits too. Like idk why I'm taking more magic damage from an ADC with mostly 4 AD items than a mage with 3 AP items. It's so strange. But I agree overall.
A weird thought i have to solve this is to nerf all base adc movespeed early which would reduce the self peeling factor early on, but itll just lead to an assassin meta.
Crazy how I got called silver for saying that ADC characters are good enough to be played in every role, but so many high elo people agree that it's a giant problem that they can dominate roles
That's because adc players want to whine about their champions being weak when in reality it's just that being bot lane makes you weak
@@demonderpz7937And thats not even always the case, its just that being lower level means you cant 1v5 as easily without good positioning, so they're bitching about being weak literally because of their skill issue😂
well, ARE you silver?
@@NYKIKE This a fucking stupid question
Yes ur indeed silver, ur stating that ADC is op because people are playing them mid, but people are too dumb to check their winrates before speaking about dominating other roles, trist luc kaisa ezreal corki zeri all avg about 45% wr midlane.
Time really is a full circle.
For those who haven't played since the old days, ADCs used to go mid as their primary lane, but were ran out by Assassins and Burst Mages, this led to people playing safe scaling mages there instead because they needed less protection and or had instant wave clear, Anivia being one of the best at this.
It will be fun to see if this all happens again.
Back then was there even a duo botlane?
@@Fadlife_League It was like double bruiser lane often, or what people called a kill lane
Something like Pantheon with Lee Sin or other silly stuff.
An ADC with a tanky support like Taric or Blitz I think ended up countering those kill lane duo. Now we are often seeing double mage in botlane these days, kinda similar isn't it.
@@XenoWarlock "Kill lane" made me lol.
the funny way I read this is "People do be taking scissors to paper lane. rather than staying in scissor lane!"
@@Fadlife_League back then we also had Twisted treeline in which no one jgled on the original TT map it was mid = 1v1 and bot lane 2v2
If you look at the profiles of mid and top adc's, you will see they are not botlane players. Its just that mid and top players have realized that adc champions are too strong due to the fact adc players champions are forced to exist in the worst lane in the game.
Bot lane isn’t even bad, I legitimately think the problem is the average support player is so elo inflated because they are almost always the worst player in the game. Riot buffed the power level of support to be so ungodly high so people would fill the role because back in the day no one would queue support.
@@tc851 That reads like a scapegoat man
@@tc851 I don't think the issue is the skill level of support. Its the fact that bot lane is meant for two players to be in sync, and solo queing is fundamentally opposed to letting that happen.
But if you duo que then you are agreeing that Riot should match you up against harder opponents to compensate for having the ability to communicate.
Lets also not excuse ADCs on this. Looking at the dravens that flash barrier cause you accidentally took a single kill from him due to burn, or hit a single minion on accident. Theres a huge issue of Main character syndrome tied to that role specifically because of certain streamers that I won't name.
The problem with bot is that you're relying on your support being good. 9/10 of my matches, they're not. It's frustrating. So I took AP Ez mid, and I LOVE it!
Damn. I should have read the replies first. 😂 You guys already said this.
@@RWxAshley the issue is being down 3000-6000 gold in stats for the lane you picked when you go botlane. Solo lane exp diff is fucking insane.
I won't lie, as a Rammus main I get a bit too exited when I see enemy team lock 3 adc
Where does rammus get his damage? From ad or ap?
@@wvubebop armor
yes, Rammus into 3 adc it's already a won game from champ select :D If I ware on the 3 adc team I would just surrender at 0m :D
"People tell me It's a scissor's world now, and I'm just a rock living in it."
@@wvubebop thornmail, sorc shoes, max w, fight enemy. You can play him in toplane against pretty much anyone ad as long as you survive for 800g gold to buy bramble vest
Ngl my fav part of this is that there are still adc s who said tanks are broken
Aka dr drututt lmao
Its only due to the stupid new changes riot can't balance shit
Anyone who says tanks are not broken is completely delusional.
I just couldnt escape silver this split in over 100 games, so instead of picking normal midlaners, i finally caved and started picking bruisers/tanks. I took me a little over a week to get back to plat with a 90+% wr on mundo and garen.
Consistently doing most damage of all 10 on pure tank builds. This company is cooked.
@@notlisztening9821 Riot be like: "what if i make a character that has mobility, durability, damage, cc, max health damage and good wave clear? i really wanna see my character become the strongest. they shouldn't have weaknesses", it really looks like a child's fantasy that they want the character to be the most OP and have no weaknesses
@@notlisztening9821 Mundo and Garen are juggernauts, not tanks.
Funny how we went from "ADCs are useless" to "lets play ADCs on evers possible lane"
adc is useless if they play in the botlane, their items are strong and power spikes are strong. theyre playing adc in every other role bc its safer and more efficient for the adc since bot lane sucks
Adc was useless in botlane because go figure, handing 2 people an each team a free 3-6k gold in stats via level lead is a pretty insurmountable amount for overcome.
"Yeah if you want to he EVEN with your inting top laners in stats you need to have 10-20 kills or a upwards of 150-300 cs lead". Yeah, pretty shit idea n
@@einjharrelraca while you have a point with level leads meaning a lot, you are WAY off about those gold values. Each level is about 300-600 gold, not 3k-6k; it's not "10-20 kills," it's 1-2. Big difference.
@@nutpea. average value in stats gained on level up in league is 850 gold. i was rounding
And i did not say "each level is 3-6k gold" i said "a free 3-6k gold in stats via level lead" being the 3-6 levels you get ahead for free for being in a solo lane. so yes. it is 10-20 kills, 3-6k gold and 150-300cs worth of free stats.
Its the TOTAL of 3-6 levels. not sinular levels im talking about. if a solo lane is only 1 level up on a botlane they should be banned for inting.
You can make any adc useless by keeping flash for important teamfights and not wasting your high damage abilities on tanks as their adc is attacking you. I understand, you're bronze, and you must attack first guy you see, but bear with me when I say that league is a complex game where you can make complex decisions such as "I chunked this guy hard and he has no chance taking our objective now, maybe I should stop chasing and go back and help my jungler do the objective faster".
adcs being meta is my doom cuz i cant kite
Oh don't worry, riot removed lethal tempo so you don't need to kite, just auto thrice and they explode
Attack move
me doing briar bott see why it is happen.
In training range remove minions then put 4 training dummies in a row. Practice. Top lane.
Dude I used to only play bot and cry because my support, but after I qued top/mid I'm climbing like no tomorrow because I can make my own decisions and not have to 3v1
The whole idea of "I don't know which role this Vayne/Varus/Lucian/Ezreal/Tristana is playing, so I now can't lock in any melee champion" is the issue for me. The only counterplay I find in dogwater diamond elo is when the ranged laner just... Sucks. Vayne constantly Q'ing straight into my Cho'Gath Q which I am maxing with a Dorans Ring starting item, so now she's half hp and can no longer afford to poke me in case I land another Q + W and kill her in the silence. If she just walks up without Q'ing, she'll just dodge my Q with hers and I can no longer play. But that is the only thing I can do. The only counterplay to ranged top at least, is for them to just be bad players. Ranged vs melee matchup is just so onesided, and in mid you easily contest every wave, bully your opponent and get prio for everything.
Ah yes, of course, people who complain about range top are people who play chogath and max his most useless ability that is impossible to hit on anyone who has a working monitor.
You're literal bronze, but even you can full this off: pick renekton, play safe until level 3, get level 3 and have more than 80% of your health bar, just walk away if you are about to get autoattacked, if you get autoattacked and take damage, you're doing it wrong, use bush to soak xp even if you can't last hit minions, at level 3 use typical renekton gameplay to all in for easiest kill in your life because you just learned how to play this game.
It doesn't have to be renekton, any real bruiser who has CC and a dash will do the same thing. It's funny how jax is a champion yet you bronzies can't deal with autoattackers.
@@templeofdelusion Quite ironic you call it a bronze problem when ADC in solo-lanes are the biggest issue in high elo. Marksmen will continue to receive systematic nerfs until they're mostly kicked out of solo-lanes in pro play. Get fucked ADbaby.
if you're just out here picking cho every game regardless of the matchup the problem isn't the lack of counterplay, you're just getting outdrafted. mobile adcs will hard counter cho no matter what because a majority of his damage comes from skillshots while all they have to do is click you. your best bet is to learn an equally (or more) mobile skirmisher like irelia or yone. or pick renekton or sett and sit in bush all game so they can't harass you out of lane like the guy above said.
Pick comet Malphite and bully rangers
Just play Zed in every lane, it totally works (I’m in Bronze 3)
The problem in top is also that ranged tops have been quite op for a while, but the counters to them were also meta, camille, olaf, yone, and forgive me for uttering his name, malphite. These all keep the ranged champs out of toplane
Now most of them aren't even that viable outside of counterpicks and or just get stomped by ranged regardless
Dude uttered camille, yone and olaf just fine, some of the most cancerous top picks in the game just fine, but malphite? Nah too much mate
nobody picks adcs into these, calm down
And malph and rammus are pretty much only solid counters until hybrid adc or apc appears
@@NordicDragon1337 Kaisa very scary
Hot take that got left out to get cold on the counter: bot lane has been worst lane for 15 years (or more) and seaspn after season they update the jungle, rework all the supp items, rework tanks, reworks tank items, add new items for every role except adc, etc etc etc. Ofc adc sucks. Its always sucked. I'm mindfucked it took players THIS long to move to another lane and allow 1 microgram of dopamine back into their lives.
cant wait to riot releasing adc that have scaling with armor and scaling with max hp while dealing pure damage and 300% effective damage against jungle monster
Ikr, speaking of insane scaling, Darius is one of the most insane nonsense champion to ever be released in LOL and it has been that way for decades and nobody thinks is fked up? He always have 4k hp and hits more than any mage could ever do, bleeds you for half of your hp, that is insane to me.
@@Shadow86TheGamer the reason nobody cares is that darius is incapable of closing space, he's forced to shove tons of ms on items/runes/spells to close any gap on you, totaly immobile and needs 5 stacks to actualy deal damage if he goes tank, if he goes full ms, he becomes too squishy to side against the enemy laner most of the time, i'd love to see a rework on darius to give him more skill expression, myb give ms on passive then remove some of the ad/bleed, idk, darius feels complete shit to play against heavy cc/slow comps.
@@tsugako1765 Oh yeah, against fast/dashy heavy cc comps is too slow, no real engagement unless you're close to his face, pretty bad. People like Morgana make him useless but then again, that's the case with most champions, but i feel there's no other tank who can delete you as fast if he manages to get to you considering how tanky he is usually too. Well i guess there's the dog if you let him farm his Q you just die, i guess.
@@Shadow86TheGamer nah darius matchup is easy, granted he has insane scaling stats, but once you know how to play it, its easier to be done
Like simple, Dont get hit by q, never give darius 5 stack and go in when his e on cd
And no, u no need dash, Ornn, morde, garen, mundo, etc can fight darius
Also PHASE RUSH EXISTTTT, dont be a moron, let the wave pushing onto you, farm under turret, get t2 boots, boom darius cant do shit on you in lane, then you can kill him
@@Shadow86TheGamer i'll give you an example, sett, Q gives ms towards enemy champs, ult gives invul to cc, E has cc on diferent side that stun multiple champs, W shields and true damage on a basic skill, sett has better engage, better team fight, better side lane pressure tank to his passive+double aa destroying towers, yet, most people dont care about him, the perception of darius as a "toxic" champion is just cultural at this point, most people at higher elos know that once darius gets 3~4 stacks on you in a team fight, you flash away, he dies, he has to commit to someone, and if that someone escapes, he's useless, in high elo something people do to let him be better is allow darius to get a guaranteed kill with R so he can full stack immediatly.
Darius is not bad, nor is he broken, he is just flawed, what he does well is too good, but what other champs would just be okay, he's garbage(i.e. chain cc a sett he still might kill you, illaoi has cc invu in R, kled has a jail free card on passive, etc, darius you miss its usualy over).
Wait it took people this long to realise that solo lane ADCs spike faster?
Drututt being doing it for years...
Drututt also knows how to play the game relatively well, can't really compare a living, thinking human being with league players
@@midlaynr4546 it's more to do with repeated adc buffs. The newest one making crit items 25% was the tipping point for many
Yeh he also says consistently that they are hard to play because if you do a single mistake you are doomed.
Them working in solo lanes only shows that they are not punished as they should be for their mistakes
@@datstift610 yes because drututt is such an upstanding 'living, and thinking human being'
ADC items are delivering 25% crit, in wild rift this is already normal but since the matches last a short time there is no problem with items having 25% crit since the game will end before they get too strong but lol pc matches last longer and this helps ADCs scale much faster
2:14 i've only played tristana botlane ever since I started playing league and now I can't anymore because she is more trash than me. riot, please bring ADCs back to the botlane
Play ADC in top/mid it's so much easier if you know how to play! I went from bronze 1 - gold v just by doing it so far
i mean you could learn to play other types of champions. y'know, like everyone in every role other than botlane always did and had to?
Something I noticed as a jgler, when you do something that upsets your adc, the dude would just start following you around, take your camps, and when a fight occurs, he will just watch and won't do anything. This kind of behaviour should be a bannable offense
how was ganking the lane and taking the kill not a bannable offense for junglers????
@@ztriker4406 you're part of the problem, if you think like this
So, you're telling me an ADC champ managed to steal a camp from you?
That's just sad AF
@@ztriker4406 be glad you got ganked lmao. You can set the tempo, get ninion exp, and platings, but the 300g you lose is where you crack? The jglr could have also just farmed more money instead of risking and coming to gank you. Not bannable at all. Also kills "belonging" to anyone is in the gray, no rules 'really'. Who's to say who will use the gold better? Impossible to measure.
@@ztriker4406 tell me you're silver without telling me you're silver
Me a supprt main: Ok which of you is my quick play adc? Which is top and which is mid?
I love how the hyper scaling *CARRIES* are also some of the strongest lane bullies.. ffs
im a zeri otp and i hate this new meta. half the time my own teammates will steal zeri to play her mid or jgl and int ;-;
@@mZStarCraft I mean. Being in a solo lane hands them an extra 3000-6000 gold worth of stats because solo lane exp is so hilariously busted. Turns out, the scaling class does well with more resources.
I love how people are so mindbroken by "hurr just freefarm toplane/midlane" meta that when any challenge is given, they start inting.
You can literally pick any bruiser into the adc pick and easily kill them with lv3 all-in, if you don't know how to survive to level 3 without dying, you belong in Iron 4, because with equal health bars, melee champ will crush ranged champ 100% of the time.
If you think about it, picking adc mid/top is trolling. But hey, it's league, league players don't actually know how to play this game, they will keep locking in their scaling mage into scaling autoattacker and cry on reddit.
Ironic, because picking two mages botlane into adc + support makes mages win more often than not, but when that happens, I don't see mage players crying about absolute state of this game.
God forbid this game has some variety and forces you to play the game in more ways than HURR MY FAVE CHAMP THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO EVEN PLAY, DUUUUUURH XDDDDDDDDDDDD, in a game with 168 champions, meaning that in every possible match, there's 3756161027103408 possible champion interactions that you maybe didn't even think of before.
so like vlad mid top or fiora top?
Yep
I wish they reworked slightly how damage and armour interact with one another and reworked true damage.
If you had instead of true damage a damage that scaled with enemy armour, while doing barely no damage to enemies without it, building on-hit/anti-tank would allow you to delete the enemy big bois, while still allowing the enemy tank to do his job, seeing that by forcing you to build around him, it would lower your overall damage against his teammates. Basically the exact oposite of flat lethality.
That true damage thing - You basically just described % armour / magic pen.
We already have percentage damages though. I think removing true damage for a mechanic that already mostly exists just removes options in the game especially when a lot of champs use true damage as an important part of their kit like Velkoz. You’d instead have to give him this weird damage based on armor/MR mechanic for shredding tanks, which would make his passive stacked ult useless against squishies.
They need to remove true damage completely because it's annoying to balance out and it's fundamentally the reason why we have so many broken damage items. Because if tanks need massive hp scaling then you need items like liandry's and bork... If they lower hp scaling and remove true damage you overall have a more balanced game, then they can afford to double down on nerfing %armor/magic pen so they can start reworking tanks properly and not having tanks be basically assassin-fighters like they've been for years. Also true damage is the reason you have champions like Sett and Fiora and others that have %max hp big damage skills so they can ruin tanks that hp scale. Riot's inability to balance things out since forever is baffling. They've been stuck in this "big damage loop" that they themselves are creating because they're literally inept at figuring out what's wrong with their game. Each champion nowadays suffers from "main character syndrome", especially the new ones, and it's ruining the game.
@@bohomazdesign725 %pen is stronger against Champions with not that much armor. A Rammus with 800 armor getting it reduced by 40% will still ignore ~70% of all physical damage, but a champion with 80 armor losing 40% of that is cooked
@bohomazdesign725 you did not read well. Armor pen kills squishies faster, too. But he wants mechanic, that ONLY hurts tanks and does 0 dmg to squishy.
So you get more rock paper scissors mechanic.
Surprisingly people figured out that EXP is more important than Gold 90% of the time. Riot has also been nerfing gold income across the board: Tower Plating nerfs, Support Item Nerfs, Items that have no right to cost 3000+ costing as much as they do. And last but not least, Mages having a ridiculous amount of Armor while also hitting 200 dmg, 800 range abilities on 5 second CD’s.
I’m honestly surprised this didn’t happen sooner. Effectively you troll if you’re not an APC in bot lane, mid lane you can just shoot off a global or semi global ult, and we nerf bruisers every other patch bc someone can’t play into Darius or Aatrox
I think the biggest part is how safe they are. They get such good escape bs for zero reason. Draven's the only adc mid I've seen that I haven't thought is a symptom of this. Make ezreal's e a dash, remove trist's w buffering, and kaisa is just awful no matter where she is
Because God forbid we actually gave our glass canons an actual weakness
@@dankmemes8254 I'd say dota does this really well, most of their carries are melee characters who do have mobility and the ones that are ranged often have little to no mobility.
Most of them have no mobility
Yeah its fr the mobility thats the issue
You wanna know something insane?
Tristana rocket jump is infinitely better than Kha'Zix unevolved AND evolved E. Even if you take the multijumps into account.
I want my Trist mid back 😢. Why did it have to be broken.
Man, I love how systemic issues can all be traced back to Riot wanting the game to be faster and shorter.
This would never happen if 40-45 minute games were the average, because each role would be allowed to have their powerful moments.
It was never designed to be a fast paced game. And I think a lot of problems would be solved if we had longer games again.
Oh yes. But also: it didn't really work as a slow-paced game either. The game is too barebones at its core, slowing it down would just result in half-an-hour monotonous farmfests once again. Perhaps if they went the route of giving players more to do on the map, things could be different. Instead, they chose to radically speed it up, because god forbid they challenge the...lacking...attention span and tunnel vision of an average League player.
It's effectively impossible to rollback now, since the game has been gradually made very micro-intense to compensate for and mask its strategic shallowness.Returning meaningful macro aspect would make the game prohibitively difficult (since micro is already stressful), and that just doesn't sell skins.
Just go play some other game or become a competitive grass toucher instead, as League sure as hell ain't gonna recover or return to its ancient glory days, because it can't. So they will just shuffle a bunch of numbers around to give different champs and roles some time in the spotlight (simultaneously gimping others to this end, of course) to keep people hooked. That's what League has been for years now.
Idk, you could also try doto - it's a strictly superior game at this point - but it rots your soul to the core even harder, so I can hardly recommend it to anyone who doesn't have 450 toxicity resistance and a severe arbitrary complexity addiction
It’s the season of phreak
Yeah, thats why he only plays support
hes getting phreaky
ADCs dont even need mana anymore
But mages go oom when trying to poke them out of lane
@@abbemartensson3850 if you lose to your runepages and don't take presence or manaflow band sure, but that's you being knowledge checked pre game, and thus is your fault.
@@einjharrelraca this is not the point. ADC currently have too much sustain, and even for a mage with presence+manaflow, you won't be able to poke them out of lane. it's impossible or else you will have zero waveclear because you needed to use all spells on enemy champ and now you're oom. this was a huge problem before riot nerfed all healing runes like 3~4 years ago. the new Abosrb Life rune is completely hypocritical from Riot to implement.
Community: we have a problem with ADC
RITO: I will neft the boots countering most ADC
as well as the mage ones
@@Andrea-wr5wd boohoohoo poor mage, just go to botlane or something like you've done for several seasons now
@@templeofdelusion thats literally just Karthus and Brand...
@@MrOrthodox13 zephyr?
@@justalex7825and Veigar
bro hearing the dark cloud theme in this video made my day, thanks whoever edited this vid.
it was me :3 and thanks
Bro as a support main I'm crying because I can't afford these boots man. 200 is almost 10% of one of my items and roaming feels like shit(cause no boots). Thank you adc's for not only fucking up my lane but now also my item spikes...
Fr I always rush Tier 2 boots because my teams always expect me to roam and rotate. Having to spend the extra 100g is grating.
Being able to afford a control ward early makes all the difference in early game map control, but now it's only a luxury that farming solo laners get.
T1 boots into winged moonplate/aether wisp and either rush dead man's/warmog's or shurelya. Support is the least affected role by the boots nerfs.
@@inplane9970 Your team expects you to roam and in every 3rd game my adc runs down the moment supp goes for 1 roam XD
@@XirlioTLLXHR That's only a viable rush for tanky supports. Going Shurelya's first as an Enchanter is reportable unless you're Orianna.
@@inplane9970 Right, because Velkoz is a tank...
you forgot smolder
As an ex-toplaner, the only acceptable ranged toplaner is a teemo player who doesn’t know what they’re doing
Or Jayce ig
or quin or cait or fiddles or urgot since urgot is ranged
@@shawnfaucher7339 quinn is a nessesary evil, cait and fiddle no, and urgot is fine since his range isn't that big
Riot’s original design philosophy for ADCs is that they’re supposed to be the main ranged damage dealers that scale super hard but have the weaknesses of being immobile and squishy in exchange. Back then, 8/10 times you get on top of a ADC, they’re dead, no questions asked. For a long time now, that philosophy got changed/crushed with the majority of ADCs having a mobile/escape tool to enable them being safer. Coupled the durability patch and the increased ADC stats in a (much) earlier patch just exasperates the issue. Being able to pick an ADC into the majority of roles and being able to come out on top has been an issue that won’t really be fixed unless systematic changes are in place or they’re willing to accept changes that’ll impact bot lane performance.
For a long time riot nerfed and gutted adc's because for riot a ranged auto attack champion was not supposed to deal damage... now they have the potential to be a threat and everyone says they are broken when they still die in one shot... the only difference is that they have damage before the game is over, where before the game would probably end before they ware relevant.... there was a reason for Caitlyn lethality for example, because crit caitlyn would not reach the relevant stats to be a champion while lethality made her stronger while id did matter.... and cmon, adc mobility does not make them safe imo... only adc that have a mobility ability that makes it safe is ezreal because it's a blink other adc have short range mobilities and most of them can be stopped in place with CC... also don't forget the fact that one mobility ability = one less damage ability in general...
@@filipepinho3319 weird since the ADCs abused in mid/top rn all have that in common, some form of mobility, this whole situation wouldnt exist if adcs were actually 1shotted, which they arent thanks to said mobility
@@miguelMickSummer literally every adc can be one shotted, that role relies on a support for a reason... And let's see other than ezreal blink any other mobility that adc have can be denied... Play adc Vs an assassin for example like zed, yes he might have a good time before lvl 6... After that what good does that the adc have a mobility if there isn't a support there to cc the assassin.., he's just good as dead.... Play as a melee champion, well yes you'll have a hard lane, but honestly not impossible to win, I've seen that more than the adc win that lane, actually don't even remember a game where adc top winning, and just dying over and over with their mobility.... Meanwhile adc bot lane also have to deal with champions that are not supposed to be playing there for a long time but no one really talks about that, only when adc are on the other lanes that people talk
They still have those weaknesses, what's stopping you from picking something like Renekton mid?
oh right, you're bronze who doesn't know how to walk out of enemy's range nor when you powerspike
@@filipepinho3319 a good zed won't give adc a good time even pre-6, him being melee champion makes him stronger. He can literally all in at level 3 to force adc to back off. Wait for cooldowns and do this one more time and adc dies like a typical bronze who picks ranged champ in mid/top.
If you cannot imagine winning this, it's because you haven't suffered thousands of games against teemo top, not my problem though, ranged champions are easy to kill.
I've been playing a hella ton of AP Malphite in silver and I personally think I stopped everyone here playing ADC after they all get one shot over and over
The times i've dealt with Tristana. Im seriously going insane. Tristana top, tristana mid, tristana this, tristana that. MY FUCKING GOD. I WOULD KILL FOR A SINGLE VAYNE MATCHUP RATHER THAN SEE THAT GODDAM FLUFFY GOBLIN AGAIN. Im tired of seeing my fucking tower get to 1/4 of hp in a single bomb+ some AA's while also clearing my wave due to the aoe dmg. Of her fucking mobility reset on kill. Please make it stop
To factor this in: people generally prefer playing ranged because range is a form of defense. In a game in which everyone oneshots, compromising your team is well worth the possibility of surviving. If not being hit is your only option because one skill shot means you get a death timer, of course everyone goes ranged.
The adc situation is crazy...
This feels like a non-solution. Basically, we're letting the same things happen again and again.
Buffs tanks. Nerf them and buff marksmen. Nerf them, buff assassins. And it's not so much a class problem than a role problem to me.
I haven't played LoL for long, and I never played ranked. But from my perspective, it's like nobody is willing to question the whole team composition meta that is either enforced or destroyed.
Can we talk about mages bot or jungle? The characters that can be both top or jungle? That one offmeta counterpick that will anihilate your lane? (Say hi to ranged tops)
I think that this game is way to complex to enforce the rules of its meta, even though it should be kept under control.
...or maybe I'm just craving for a less competitive MOBA that's not as chaotic as Arena.
why cant botlane level just as fast as the other lanes, and have the botlane champs balanced around this? it seems like a fundamental issue to have champs geared towards leveling less in one situation over another.
Your level as an adc shouldn't matter at all but the changes they made to the game is how we are in this situation
@@nashred what situation? Tristana being a hard counter to kassadin? Ranged champs being strong level 1? You being too bronze to space correctly until level 3 where you can use 3 abilities to all in a ranged champ who doesn't do any more damage at level 3 than it did at level 1 due to your melee champion having more armor and higher base attack and 3 abilities made for fighting unlike ADC's who often only have 1-2 abilities that actually do damage, because they're balanced around autoattacking?
Even with casters like lucian (again, he only has 2 abilities that actually do damage), I had people just walk out of Q damage...
Yeah great idea, let's go back to funnel meta but take away the main drawback of having a second duo lane, why not :D
@@templeofdelusion yeah you forgot autoattacks, adcs do damage with every single attack while mages in early only do damage every 7-10 seconds
@@ultravioleta1607 you forgot that no adc has 1000 range at level 1, you're just bronze.
You see, my favorite game was during S3 when my team was failing practically everywhere and our only wincondition was "In Mordekaiser we trust". There was quite a feeling when the whole team hopes that 3/1/1 Mordekaiser, who has been farming for the entire game, suddenly becomes a 1v5 machine and wins the game solo... and it did happen.
Nowdays however, the whole early-mid-late game powerspikes are a total mess due to a fact that most ADCs are strong in the every phase of the game and all it takes to take out your fed Darius is to have Leona stunlock him while ADC just does a few autos and boom - the D-threat is gone. I know it can be quite frustrating to play when your champ literally does nothing early, sometimes only having a vague impact on the game in midgame too, however, this is why those champions were rewarded with an absurd lategame. In my opinion it was far more interesting to have a champion like old Patheon with absurdly strong early to mid and non-existent late instead of current Vayne that can be an issue on every stage of the game. And it much more healthy for the game when champions have clear weaknesses. What was the weakness of Ezreal during early seasons? - his lack of damage until 3 to 4 items, it was extremely rare to see Ezreal getting fed early. Nowdays? - player's lack of skill to hit anything, that's literally the sole weakness right now.
And the worst issue - we don't have the late game again. Early and midgame damage are buffed to the point that midgame became the lategame, so it's literally pointless to pick anything late-focused other than ADCs. See Qiyana and Lucian? - those are actual lategame champs now.
Same season 3 was the best by far and im totally agree now every champ are strong every time except burst Mages for some reasons
I do have a complaint. They're not ADCs. They're marksmen. Now that they're no longer caged in bot lane they can actually affect the map by playing mid rather than being stuck 2 levels lower than everyone else because you had to share a lane. If you know which marksmen are typical mid laners then you can still predict draft. It's a classic skill diff.
Theyre also 1000x more vulnerable in mid lane, especially with the lane changes. If you cant identify when a champion's abilities are on CD and capitalize on their positioning.. then you are fundamentally fucking up at the basics of League. Either your laner isnt coordinating the lane well, or your jungler isnt identifying their opportunities. Ganks don't even always have to kill. If Tristana Ws away because a jungler entered the lane, then cool. That's gold they miss, and free chances for the laner to set up a better wave state.
the dude who wrote the essay is spot on imo, for the game to be fun, every role needs clear strengths and weaknesses, and we should require a balanced team comp to win.
Adcs need a weaker early game, but they also need to be able to survive the early game to not be completely useless.
I won't write an essay myself, but basically they need to be nerfed early so that they need the help of the support to lane, their late game needs to be the hardest scaling.
Support, the role who has the least gold income, should not be able to deal that much damage without gold, so basically : they need to remove mage supports from the meta and balance those champs for midlane, as they can abuse adc's early too hard if the early of adcs was as weak as it should be
the overall damage of the game should be reduced a bit, as the one shot meta makes the adcs late game too weak.
those two things imo should allow the adc's early to be nerfed in a way that would make them shit in solo lane but still playable bot
For me the problem is mid being ruined by Rod of Ages + Seraph's Embrace. Makes it impossible to get solo kills and just ruins the lane phase
that shield items is disgusting
The reason is it is an all tank meta and adcs are the role that can kill them. Mage don't have the damage and assassin case game flip and fall off. So late scaling champion are better. This because bounty caught up systems push all other roles out. Assassin can't end early do to 5min tower thing. All they have to do to fix it is remove caught up systems.
its always fun when you watch esports and cant wait who picks Lucian, Corki, Renekton, Rell and Ezreal
As a Diamond ADC main I don't often feel the need to be the "main character". I don't mind my teammates and even SP taking kills (AND sometimes even farms) as long as they know what to do. I'd gladly accept that over losing a game. Of course it's more satisfying (and makes your job easier as an ADC) if you get fed and pampered, then goes on to carry the game doing tons of DMG and stuff but... as long as I get to play and win that's all that matters (and it's not gonna be like like that in every game anyway). Such mindset helped me to become more chill and focused. Simply put, if my team hoard resources but can't profit for the win, it's their skill issue BUT if I get fed but can't do sh*t, it's my skill issue. A fed support can wreak havoc on their entire team while making sure their ADC gets to farm and scale.
yeah lets talk about boots nerf
- plated costs more gold and gives less damage reduction with what was it less armor?
- merc costs more give less mr and less tenacity?
- berserkers not changed at all still 1.1k gold with a t3 version of them that is legit just a completed item
honorable mention for kraken slayer an item made for adc's ends up being nerfed only for the class the item was designed for xD... riot should just nerf all items and runes all across the board and end this damage stack meta tbh!
@filipepinho3319 I will never forgive riot for doing that exact thing with lethal tempo.
"Let's make an adc conqueter equivalent, then make it EIGHT TIMES BETTER ON MELEE CHAMPIONS". and yes, I'm salty as fuck about that to this day.
That number? Eight times? Yeah that's not an exaggeration either. It gave 8x the AS to melees that it did to ranged for the first 4 months it was there.
berserkers did get nerfed and 9/10 games the match won't even go long enough to where you can upgrade zephyrs
As a melee champion you shouldn't be building boots first item so it's not relevant to you winning a lane against ranged champion, just stop taking free autoattacks, and build some actual damage because any melee champ can all in at lv3 and easily kill even with doran's shield. To continue your lead, you need damage, 1-3 items depending on the bruiser, not plated boots, noob.
@@templeofdelusion you are def low elo
playing ad miss fortune mid is pretty fucked 90% of the time the enemy cant do anything and i can just push and roam
0:25 Is that a Huawei skin for Hwei? No way
As a Assassin main it is kinda ridiculous how tanky adcs get when they are fed or just ahead in lvl.
I often cant 1v1 an fed adc while also being hyperfed on talon, esspecially when they get some sort of defensive item (BT, GA, etc.)
League has been a fiesta before this adc fiesta... the main problem is the damage stack the game have, even a tank is able to deal lots of damage... For riot to fix ADC role they also have to fix all those issues with the game, otherwise we'll end up with the ADC dead role. For starting items and runes should be significantly nerfed and adjusted... plus a item that have mainly offensive stats shouldn't offer at the same time defensive stats, or they need to balance like 80% offensive, 10% defensive, 10% utility... I think the item passives in general are okish, with some items have ridiculous passives turning defensive stats items into offensive... and the game also needs more actives in items... riot is trying to tell us players we don't have fingers to play this type of game for far too long with this type of decisions as well champions that do it all for the player... and honestly flash I would severely nerf that thing, the game already have way too much mobility without this anyway! The game for a long time is missing strategy depth and the skill outplay creativity of players, the game currently is just lets see who one shots first... and this is where the current adc issue started, when they buff the role now they are back into the game and because some of them have mobility or ways to stay alive and counter melee champions they just win by outscalling, they don't even need to get kills, just be oppressive in lane...
I don't care about vayne top, but if I have to play one more game against Ashe or Caitlyn top I'll just quit
I would say main character syndrom isn`t an ADC exclusive thing. When the game was balanced around more defined roles a lot of people where crying because they felt like they can`t influence the game enough if they pick one of the lower damage roles like tanks or supports. So over time ADCs have been weakend and everyone else got a lot of damage buffs to a point where especially in low elo no team would play around their ADC anymore. ADC as a role is designed to have a team which tries to protect them, but every other champ nowadays is designed to act as a carry in their own right.
You talk like the current ADC power level is a thing we have never seen before. But we already had seasons during which ADCs had 25% crit on items and crits dealt 200% damage as a base line increased to 250% with IE.
Nah man adc have always been crybabies that if they weren't able to one shot enemies they would complain
@@manuelbonelli3690 more like they are crying because they cant kill a support with 1000 shot
@@KDYinTH-cam As if they can't easily kill the current supports unless they are called leona/braum/naut lol
@@manuelbonelli3690that sounds like assassin mains to me
@@thatoneweebguy6379 assassin's? They are the worst class in the entire game lol. The only assassin that can do something currently it's Leblanc and it's because of her kit and not because she is an assassin
I swear i used to say it before, ever since the changes to bot lane exp vs solo lane exp, riot has had a fundamental misunderstanding on how to balance ADCs... the problem was never that the chamions were bad, adc champs were basically always good, even when we had the bruisers bot meta, that only happened because bruisers had better kits and better base stats to deal with how bad bot lane was. the problem was that, the role fcking sucked, having to sit bot and watching the whole game just end before u can even get to level 9 or complete 1 item is just fcking insane.
instead of addressing the issue of the ROLE sucking, riot addressed a non-existent issue of CHMAPIONS sucking, adc builds nowadays are just so insanely strong, the items are crazy good, the champs that were already good, are now even better and the adc role still sucks fundamentally, the suckiness just gets covered up by how strong the champs are...
Problem is if you nerf ADC much more, people will just stop playing ADC and start playing mages or assassins in ADC role.
they do that rn, mages are meta bot for like 3 months now
Top laners have been dealing with this for years now but when it happens to other lanes it's like the end of the world.
Fucking hilarious that you think other lanes haven't been dealing with this. Fucking new blood players don't even know what the fuck they're talking about. Mid lane used to be exclusively for ADC until burst mages and assassins pushed them out.
7:00 as usual, high elo weirdos are so close to the real issue while missing the point. "Main Character Syndrome" is a fundamental problem with League as a WHOLE. High elo players who talk out of their ass, coaches who only exist to grift money off people, and bad faith youtubers giving advice have imbued into League this notion that "You have to win the game yourself" and it made everyone live up their own ass.
If you have an entire enemy team of 3 adcs, and you arent prioritizing some form of armor like thornmail, sunfire, or deadmans.. then you arent being a TEAM player. Its not that ADCs are main characters and ruining the game.. its that PLAYERS are their own main characters with this "I have to carry" mentality. No one wants to be the guy who gets carried. No one wants to be the "support" and work strategically because it goes against what weirdos and grifters have told people for over a decade. You got 3 ADCs on the enemy team? Lock in Rammus and fucking WALK at them. Build your comp and strategy better.
For gods sake, we live in a world where Baus is genuinely debated to be a troll or not. Because people fundamentally do not understand that you dont have to be a dick swinging carry to win the game. Main character syndrome is a PLAYER issue, not a champion issue. Its the same reason the community is so fucking toxic. They have been indoctrinated with this idea of carrying. But when everyone is super, nobody is.
True, I'm stuck in low elo (no, I'm not gonna blame teammates, I'm just bad player lol) and for years I'm hearing:
"In iron/bronze/silver/gold pick X,Y,Z champions, snowball and win by yourself because you're playing 1v9."
And I'm sick and tired of this "good advice" because community grow to have that main character syndrome that they are alone, they are the only player that can win game and WILL NOT play with team because "rest of the team is useless" while enemy team will just stick together, take drakes, take baron, pick up players that just wander alone and just push slowly to win.
I can't count ammount of games that could be won if players were smart enough to actually stick together and play together instead of going solo everywhere and just being killed by whole enemy team.
League was, is and will be team game, even Baus just split pushing lanes while being 0/20 is more useful for team than some player with overinflated ego and main character syndrome getting 3-4 kills just to die and give enemy gold from bounty and repeating this over and over. And why? Because Baus puts pressure on the enemy, if they continue to push and trying to fight then Baus will just keep pushing till Nexus is destroyed, if they go back then rest of team will pick objectives or push other lane while that overinflated ego player at some point will secure less and less kills while dying more and more.
I am happy with this acctually.
This is a game, just a game, and when the metagame of a game is broken, is cool.
This issue wasnt before because the game was a lot slower. Tanks could actually survive a fight and dps champions werent dealing 5k with a combo to an unfocused target. Make the game slower and adc could be back to their weak early. I understand that no one wants 1 hour games, but in my opinion, its a lot worse than 4 15 mins games. Win or lose, did you even played that game? Especially ranked. Those games should be even more thight, because you should play as your best pick, after all. Durability update did nothing in that matter, maybe a slower early game, but when it comes to mid and late game, its a huge question mark if it gets there for a long while. Make the game slower by nerfing all the damage coming from items, especially tank items, the game can be restored easily, but no, its easier to slap some numbers with damage on an item and call it a day. Its so annoying seeing how "ONE SHOT ASSASIN BUILD" is such a wow, cool, move on, but when a tank survives 5 people more than 5 seconds, its an entire reddit post about it. Durability will come brom how much damage you deal, not how much tanky you are. Thats why assasin Aatrox was a thing for a long time. Deal huge damage, heal based on that damage.
Things started to go that way when lethality was added and assasins could oneshot with a component. Previously, a good assasin could oneshot in an Even situation and any assasin could oneshot if fed
@@ignacioperez5479 totally agree. That was the point when it all came down to it. Armor and magic pen were ok to an extent.
MOBA?NO, MORE LIKE FPS😂
as someone who's been playing since before the first ranked season: this is hilarious. the original setup was ADC solo mid and it took a couple years before players realized that mages need both gold and levels to do well but adc's only needed gold to be relevant and thus the meta was born. top and jungle becoming the varied mix of tanks and late-game supports was a side-effect and not specifically intentional.
i guess riot has just made enough changes and made enough new characters that adc's are more like the mages of old (there are so many badly designed champs now). also... Tristana mid dominating was one of the main reasons they remade her into an AD only character. her old kit was bonkers powerful if you ran full AP and took her mid. her old E was basically Ignite on a smaller cooldown and with like an 80-90% AP ratio
Yes, BUT
>Mages literally dominating bot lane and have higher win rate than adcs there, yet adcs are the only ones who are on the bottom of that list
>assassins dominate mid lane and adcs also have lowest win rates in mid lane
>top lane is still tanks and ap/ad bruisers, with adcs having low rates
What is this video even talking about? Apart from "high ranked player comments" (and those players are not shown at all) you literally don't have a single statistics to back your claims. And for the records, I'm not even an adc main.
Yeah, im thinking the same. This video is total b**lshit
Higher win rate mean nothing if they are played 3 games out of 10 000 000 op champs are not with the highest winrate usually they are the highest pickrate and if they are both they are beyond broken.
Burst Mages are countered with one mr item (except mage from season 1 billion like hwei) adcs with all armor you want still deal damages
1) ADCs have lower winrate cause everyone plays them. Meanwhile mages are only played by the few who are good at those champs AND wann take them botlane. ADCs are played by good and bad ADCs, mages are only played by good mage players.
2) Assassins are a direct response to ADCs infesting midlane, because Assassins are literally designed to kill squishy ADCs, that's their job.
@@LucRio448 first thesis makes no sense
@@LucRio448 so your point is, adc is very weak still?😂
Idea: what if each selected role gives a specific buff and debuff in lane? For example, you choose bot, you get an attack speed buff, you choose support you get CDR, reduced mana cost, you choose top you get defensive boosts, you choose jungle you get movement speed boost, and so on? Wouldn't that kinda balance out things? Sure, it'd probably shake the whole thing but it could be an interesting way of keeping things in check
Marksmen go in other roles: omg problem
Mages go in other roles: is fine
🧐
Mage didnt exist bro especially burst mage you take one item mr and its done ados you stack all armor item you want they will still dead dammages
@@yoch5383 mage is broken but not poke mage
@@yoch5383tbf that's because there is an inherent attack damage that you start the game with that scales up as you level. Where as even if you pick a mage you'll always have no ability power starting out that doesnt come directly from runes (which is like pennies compared to the ad you get).
this sounds so weird, when u only play league casually anymore.
having lived through the adc and tank metas^^
ADCs everywhere: I Sleep
Mages botlane: TO THE RICE FIELDS (And mid lane) WITH YOU
Yeah it's really funny how league players are butthurt by variety in this stale game.
@@templeofdelusion What variety is it to have the same five ADCs rotate between all roles? hello?
@@noobehnoober3178 you'll find out when you stop picking mages into adc.
idk if this is a regional problem or what but it actually has been the exactly opposite for me, where people will go 5 top/jungle. top laners have been running rampant in my games, and it not even ranked, its norms. like, why??? please explain.
Give adc champs less mr and armor while giving all melee champs more armor?
Unsure of that is long term fix but that is the simpöest, and well league community is trying to optimize the game so much you honestly need whole roster rework in order to calm this down
This is already a thing and any skilled melee champ player can kill adc at level 3, lmao.
99% of "league community" is low elo trash.
Then we will be stuck in a loop where ADCs will get nerfed and nobody would want to play ADC anymore (just like during the Assassin meta).
Its not that hard to fix this, just make players select only champs from their designated lane, done. The thing is, this would take all of the fun of the game, but would reduce drastically the trolling and make the game more fair.
This would also be the next step to kill the game, good suggestion
Riot: You want a Vayne nerf? Here! Play this new and exciting champion with a 3-hit passive, Gnar + Akshan Q, A dash that becomes an invisibility (and it resets!), a Graves R on a basic ability and an AOE camille R.
At this point Riot is just TRYING AND MAKING us uninstall
I will never understand why people are okay with mage botlaners being consistently better than ADCs in their own roles, toplaners being better than supports in their own roles, etc. but the moment ADCs are viable for more than a patch or two people freak out. It's almost like it sucks to be underleveled, and the playerbase going mid or top is a natural reaction. Sadly, Rito is just gonna nerf ADCs and their items instead of actually fixing botlane.
What? The secon ADCs are not destroying everything at half an item, ADC players start crying and won't stop until they get buffed so hard the best champion in every single role is at least one ADC, dunno where you live or play the game tbh :'D
@@LucRio448 Champions like Brand, Karthus, Seraphine, and Ziggs have consistently outperformed ADCs for literal years. It is only recent that they aren’t flourishing botlane, and yet they still manage to have a positive winrate as APCs as of right now across most skill brackets. In general, champions like Lucian mid have consistently been outperformed across all skill brackets by Akshan, among many other champions as well. Pretty consistently, ADC mid and toplaners have a horrific winrate as well, so it is not nearly as oppressive as people think, as ADCs cannot opt into defensive items, for the most part. As to where I’m playing, my BF is masters, so I’ve been jungling and supporting in that ELO for about a year, and let me tell you, it has never been easier to gank mid and top. But okay. Have fun with your 43% winrate Lucian mid, it’s tooootally OP bro.
This is will always be a "problem" because of champs like Quinn and Teemo who are marksmen by all means and could even be played bot but they are just built better for other lanes. As far as champs like these exists the marksman role will never be bound to bot. Remember people lanes weren't a thing until people just agreed it's the best strat, nothing needs to be streamlined and the game can evolve over time. Do I like that I'm fighting Camille support? No but it's whatever cause I can play Jhin top or Ryze bot and make them work. I personally like how much experimentation is possible in this meta and I would say to keep it like this for a few patches before shaking things up again completely
To be fair currently the main issue is how to nerf flex adc and not go back to split 1 when adc felt really weak. I would say a creative solution would be working around supports since they are unique to bot, not buffing them but giving them more early items to considerably strengthen the adc. A lot of supports currently take selfish support item (celestial/realmspike, bloodsong). Still it would increase the impact of supports not adc and again cause the issue of supports being laning phase adc. Its honestly tough but it's the only way to help bot adc agency without running into the meta we have now.
DUDE!!! The whole reason ADC was bullshit first split (and a good bunch of the last years) was because of supports being broken. You can't have them both being good because then the Game becomes a Best bot wins and the other 2 lanes (JG is a completely different matter) become irrelevant
The problem was that support had almsost all agency bot lane before
As a support main I learned that being a coward in lane is useless because you need to take the lead early in order to get your adc stronger. This changes destroyed that and my game style that was hella effective (waste all my resources effectively in a hyper aggressive gameplay leaving my adc in a fresh state and comfortable to take a 1v2 and win when I back). As for right now, the adc who decides to be aggressive first wins and that made most supports useless because of it. Reverting the changes not only will force adc players to stay in the botlane, but also rely on the support more instead of blindly going for the aggresive play regardless if the support is or is not in a good state or position to follow. Adcs should NEVER be the ones taking thr iniciative. That's the support's role. We are meant to set the situation for you to get in with an advantage, and forcing your support into a bad fight is terrible. It was way better for everyone when the ADC had to understand the situation and not confuse poke and pressure with an all-in, but as for right now since their early is so strong they force an all-in, which is hard to follow if you aren't already preventively waiting for it, and hard to respond when is done by the enemy lane. It becomes a fiesta and skill is meaningless. Is even worse when you get your adc midlaner mad because you roamed and they started a fight for no reason and somehow is your fault, or when thry blame you for soaking their exp after showing up to avoid the enemy laner or the jungler to commit in their all-in (half of the work of a support is to apply pressure even if is by just showing up intentionally). Ego players are the doom of the ADC role, and the doom of supports who actively try to NOT stick with solo laners alone because of it.
i stopped taking the game srsly when riot reworked graves this champion was supposed to be an adc, but very few remember/know this . Riot made him a jungler by mistake
you are just butthurt
There should be a mechanic in the champ select where you can swap roles as well as swap champ select placement so the person who is adc is the only one who can choose an adc champion.
Ex: if you’re top and try to go jhin, the character will simply be locked out and can only be used for the adc therefore making you either lock in your lane or lane swap with someone so you can play the adc in bot and someone can use a melee champ in the lane you’re running from.
“But how could that affect the actual game when they can just swap lanes in the game” while yes that could happen, that would mean the bot on the opposing team would be stuck with a melee champ and a support of sorts who would go against an adc and a support. We all know who should win that matchup.
Sadly this would never work. It’s too complex and it would just cause a lot more que dodging. The idea in itself is simply flawed as well.
What if Riot do that the champion with the support item doesn't exists upon sharing experience. That would be nice, so adc and support can match level with those unskilled mid and top players that only beat your ass cause they are 3 levels ahead.
Really wish they made a Cull-like ADC item that acts like World Atlas. That way, it incentivizes farming and scaling and it also cannot be abused by solo laners.
or maybe unskilled adc players should realise that there job is not to 1v1 3 levels up camille
@@inplane9970 So adc can't farm when supp randomly roams for 5 min? :(
@@Fadlife_League It will discourage Supports from roaming randomly and making random plays around the map, hoping that something works. It's the reason why tanky engage Supports are overpowered right now. They can roam and start fights around the map with no drawback.
@@Fadlife_League yes, you cannot, now explain why a roam takes 5mins.
Thing is, we've always kinda had this in the game for years. Varus, Vayne, Ezreal, Kai'sa and even Jhin have seen play outside of botlane for many years.
It's a never-ending cycle, if you've been around long enough, you're remember that ADC's were a joke and absolutely no one played them. To the point where all elo were using ziggs, a mage. As the main character ADC. Generally, the balance team haven't put enough effort into balancing with the meta. In simpler term. If you don't like the meta now, wait 5 minutes and complain about the new meta.
As someone who's bad at the game and just wants to play ornn top, farm for a while then get to be big and beefy, this meta is the absolute worst. I'm pushed to my tower, killed under my tower, ignored by my jungler cause my lane is weak, then (rightfully) blamed for letting my laner get out of control, with no hope of my being able to outscale them
Give them the support treatment, if an adc champ is enywere but bot, cut there gold gains, no gold no items
This happens only if you buy the support item.
Then there should be an "adc item"
How about learn how to play this game.
This would disproportionately effect botlane ADC compared to solo lane, ya know, the opposite of what they need to nerf lol.
If anything they could do a marksman wide shift to make their level scaling on durability even worse, but then they’d probably need to slightly buff botlane gold to maintain parity. Less armor, MR, and health for all marksman but they can either buff their gold-scaling or gold-income, but gold-scaling buffs would still help solo-lane so they should probably very lightly buff botlane gold from minions (also discourages ADCs from early skirmishing/rotating).
What if, just hear me out, let adcs play mid and top while nerfing their lane-ing just to make it fair
Aaaaaannd make it so that tank support and enchanters go bot so that its a relatively low kill lane… prolly giving more power to the jungler in the process… this seems like a very huge change but the game feels very stale rn and Id be into it
When I first started playing League around 3 years ago, I read the support role and it said that the role was there to help adc farm during laning. I question that definition immediately when I saw a Vayne top working so well, then beat the rest of us including my own adc being 3 levels behind.
So I asked people about adc in top lane and people said it was too vulnerable to ganks, but... what about adc that can wave clear well or have high mobility? Also people said it was vulnerable to combos, such as Camille, but from what I see is that you can just... play at lv6 while they play at lv4. Well I guess we realize that now. I really think it already making not much sense from a long time ago, not now.
Not true the game has just changed
if you and the jg have brain, you will know you can gank adc under the tower anytime anywhere
There is an issue where it is really hard to make a perfect balancing. Many characters don't go into perfect buckets. Heck, not even the buckets are exactly those defined by their roles. There is bruiser, juggernaut, marksman (which is what usually is the "ADC" but also some APCs that sometimes go on bot), enchanter, assassin, etc. And I'd even say there are subcategories that, at points, do or should be shared by two main roles (e.g., artillery mages aren't the same as mage assassins).
And because of that, even if there are some items that are prescient to a role (like the Crit items for AD marksmen), there are other units that also take advantage of those, like Tryndamere or Garen - and those also get indirectly nerfed because of that.
And because in many cases, SoloQ is a play on the META (as in Most Effective Tactic Available), the moment marksmen stop being the top dog in all roles, we'll start seeing unintended effects. Maybe Teemo starts going back to botlane, as it can bully any and all AD marksmen by denying gold. Or ADC Kassadin, or Karthus, or even Ziggs. Those will pick up the moment someone takes it (be it on Korean/Chinese Challenger/eSports, or an influencing influencer) and destroy balance again.
And as Stephen Mortdog said some times, at many points it's just a real small thing that can hardly be checked. Maybe some of these issues can be 0.05s of animation play, which make or break a character. Or giving it a -1 gold per minion makes the character useless.
It's very difficult todo esto, and as much as we love to joke about 200+ years of experience of the development team, actually getting the right solution is nowhere as easy as finding the actual problem (which is also nowhere as easy as finding that something is wrong with it).
As a master jungler, I was telling people for seasons that adcs are the most broken champs in the game. Games are decided by botlane but when I used to play top, ranged tops against good people was pure suffering. They have way too strong items and for some reason riot keeps buffing them for no reason
i think is the emblematic of a bigger systemic game design flaw at riot. this was touched on but its more then just adc, to many characters have to much built into their kit. old leauge back when every skill was simply and easy, characters fell much harder into an assigned role, tanks being tanks cc being cc and damage being damage, ect. but many things have contributed to all the charaters meshing more into eachother over the years. one is increasing utility skills, things like cc and dashes, in older leauge having cc was a much more rare thing leading to it being stronger, same with mobility however most new champs come out with mobility and cc in their kits. another would be charaters having overloaded kits, not just mobility and cc but ranged options, zoning aoe, lifesteal and substain ect, they have such adaptive kits they end up having no real weakness and to many places they thrive in. you also see game design changing factors, a huge one was when riot tried to speed up leauge games, by doing so they ended up making slow burn champs worse, this includes adcs, and tanks who both thrive in the late game, something that is rarely hit. a reduction of rolls is a huge issue, to much damage and the assassin roll is removed, to much base tankiness and bruisers and tanks are removed, we need more weakness and defined play styles for charaters. lastly riot need to stop adding items that brake limitations on champs, a prime example was when galeforce and stride braker were first given movement actives, and ended up giving charaters defined by their lack of mobility a gap closer, it make darius and garren awful because they lost their major weakness. heck even mana is a useless stat now it was implemented to balance champions but now so many have no mana that do highdamage and spam skills, that making mana be a real resource would brake old champs. tldr the game need better defined classes and playstyles letting champs have greater weakness and limitations making them play distinctly, or atleast in a roll.
Almost like solo lane exp is the problem and handing someone a 3-6 level lead for THE ROLE THEY PICKED, is a bit much.
3000-6000 gold worth of stats for free is pretty fucking busted. Like yeah, what you are seeing is adcs being handed 150-300 cs worth of free stats for the lane they are in, just like the solo lanes have been getting to enjoy.
You all laughed when the 0/13 irelia missed her entire kit and afk ran down the 12/0 jinx and her support from full hp and screamed "you should lose that fight jinx, you're down 4 levels on her". And now that adcs found a solution to how unfair that shit is, it's a problem?
its actually the fact that adcs win prio against anything so they can rotate with their jungler very easily, adcs dont scale with levels they scale with items, where are u guys getting this crap from?
@DurkzB Sure. Adc dont benefit from more ad, more as, more armor, more hp and better abilities. XD
Delusions. And if you are losing lane prio to an adc, you fucked up hard. Their waveclear isnt THAT strong, and the moment a mage has lost chapter their waveclear is gone.
@@einjharrelraca yes adc dont benefit from base stats from leveling up as much as they do from items thats why their powerspikes are on 2-3 items and not on lvl 9 when their main ability is lvl 5, and the waveclear part is half true, thats why the 2 most played solo lane adcs (tristana and corki) have more waveclear than any mage you dork
@@DurkzB yup. tristana doesn't benefit from getting more points in her q, which gives her more attack speed, or getting more range from her passive. XD
Lucien doesn't benefit from more damage on his q, and a lower cooldown on his q, allowing him to proc his passive for double autos more often, nope not at all.
Smolder doesn't benefit from getting points in his q, which lowers the cooldown and allows him to stack up faster.
Varus definetly doesn't benefit from getting more points in his q, allowing him to pop blights more often, or increasing his onhit magic damage from w if he goes that rout, and getting more ad and ap from his passive when he kills thing.
Vayne certainly doesn't benefit from getting more points in her q allowing her to increase her mobility by large amounts and damage, OR getting more points in her w, allowing her to deal more %max hp true damage. XD
This is all ignoring the extra 10-20 ad they get from levels, and the extra attackspeed they get from level either.
And finally, the big one. yup, they certainly dont get much benefit from GETTING THEIR ULTIMATES 2 FULL MINUTES FASTER THAN NORMAL XD.
@@einjharrelraca ok you might just be brain damaged, i didnt say they dont benefit, i said their power spikes are on their items no their levels, or your 225 stacks if youre smolder, a full build lvl 10 caitlyn is a lot scarier than a lvl 18 caitlyn with 3 items
On wild rift, adcs also are lane bullies (kalista, vayne and varus on top lane; lucian, tristana, ezreal on both top and mid). However, the adc role is currently considered the weakest role because we have a "one shot" meta. Tanks, bruisers and assassins are largely considered the best roles atm.
Being in bot lane as an adc doesn’t really make sense from a resource standpoint. Why be in the lane with the leaf resources, when you require the most?
@@Surged-eu5fs because riot took the resources away from botlane, and whenever ADC go away from there, they are sent back with a kick
Because in old league ADCs did not need to put points into their ability like mages. They just scaled better off of gold while others scaled better off of level and exp. So you could be under leveled but still have 3 items and be the strongest on the map now the game has forgotten these basic principles and we are in the state of league we have today so I get permad
@@nashred if you weren't bronze, you'd know that melee champs are still stronger than adc's at level 3.
>b-b-ut I am a moron and took free damage for past 2 levels, I can't all in now!
yeah maybe don't take free damage then? Use your brain. You said it yourself, others scale better off level and exp, so gold is not relevant. Is it not possible to scale off level and exp against a ranged enemy without taking damage?
Holy shit, league players are so dogshit.
Because in early stages on league mages were really strong in mid game far stronger than adc in mid game nowadays midgame or late game is basicqlly the same for adcs and burst Mages are now useless or adcs have better power spike
What counters ADC’s?
Things that can get on them, and kill them.
That’s ADC’s that are all
over the place, and mostly Hyper Mobile.
That’s what they need to target. 🎯
In addition the champions that counter them are not being played often, or are weak currently.
True assassins (or old true assassins)
Zed, Leblanc, Talon, Katerina, Fizz, Akali.
In addition, control Mages paired with Tanks. Should be able to heavily limit a Marksmen’s options.
However, due to the extreme excess of tank busting currently in the game, they are unable to be utilized in the fashion they were originally designed for and capable of from Season 2-4
Ty
So TLDR
Tanks and assassins are not strong enough in the current game environment to answer ADC’s.
Tanks because there is too much %HP and true damage in the game.
Assassins because they been nerfed heavily, or entirely redesigned to intentionally slow down their play styles.
Give ADC extreme mobility, was the real issue that exasperated all of this to
"ADCs are ruling the game" *laughs in sion*
Ok
"COOOOOWWAAAAARDS!"
You having a stroke?
He is defo having a stroke, call 911
lol, Sion is pure shit right now
Imagine expecting Riot to do anything about their own game in 2024
Riot trolled with giving adc's Collector. Why even bother grouping up to get Elder Dragon buff when they could just rush collector 1rst item and spray n pray hoping the execution procs in a situation where they probably wouldn't have calculated the precise damage to kill you. You see shit like Cait/Dravens go like 0-5 in lane and then they build Collector and press R for the rest of the map to 'assist' their smurf duo with a near-guranteed execution on something that probably wouldn't have killed in the first place.
Collector is the least of the problems
Unholy levels of bronze emanating from your post.
@@templeofdelusion Nah you probably abuse collector because you don't know the precise damage potentials to kill someone. It's a lazy hamburger helper item lol
I can only imagine Riot making a commercial out of it.
"Tired of being bad and the enemy always leaving with low health? Introducing Collector, an AUTO EXECUTE button! Now you TOO can become Doublelift".
See back in my day in Season 1-5 you had to actually calculate your armor/magic penetration in your head and after many games you developed a 2nd hand nature for it. That's one of the huge factors that seperated the average from the great. That's not there anymore if you build that item.
@@limeffdd that's a lot of words to cope about the fact that you're bronze instead of asking how I know, lmao.
@@templeofdelusion you know I'm right lol I can't tell if you're just trollposting or not. I've already hit diamond season 4 and 5 back when it mattered if you really care. look up Dancing Eel. I did it without the billion coaches/youtube guides and overwolf addons you kids abuse nowadaays lmfao
if you buff mage base armor and assassin base lethality that will kick em out real quick. ive been abusing it when i get off-roled to mid and the problem is the survivability.
Change their kits to be better early and scale less so ads keep their late game firepower
The problem is ADC mains cry like hell when their role isn't blatently overpowered and the literal core of the game in the early; mid and lategame like they were in Season 2. When in reality; the ADC is a lategame class, and is the glass cannon damage. It's supposed to require support in exchange for that power.
If you want to be the main character, you can't be the main character for every arc; there's 4 other characters on your team. 4 other players.
The worst players are in bot lane because all good players don't even want to play bot, INCLUDING YOU.
I mean it's the same issue with Mages, but unlike ADC, Mages wants to go mid but they cannot go mid because it's a lane shared with Assassins, and Assassins are extremely strong in lane. So Riot decided to push mage to Support/Jungle/Top/Bot, which I dislike about it because assassins aren't pushed anywhere and are stuck Mid lane.
heres a hot take:
restrict champ select pools based on the damn role you picked.
you cant lock in lucian mid and vayne top if they arent even available to pick.
Unfortunately that would restrict player creativity
Its creativity that created the jungle role, the ad/sp bot, top, jg,mid & support pantheon (depends on the season for viability), CAPS' vayne mid.
Creating a limitation on role and position will give you a situation like Overwatch, which no one likes.
@@FallenWings no one liked the 6 tank meta in overwatch either but they dont ever see those again thanks to role restriction,
and things like support pantheon are why people dont want to play marksmen in the botlane in the first place.
creativity is not inherently a good thing.
"everybody's so creative! see the veigar bot and master yi supp duo? arent you glad everyone's allowed to take anyone anywhere? who cares if they dont normally fit those roles! you never know if something is viable until after the game! or you can learn exactly why they belong where they belong and never anywhere else, but whos gonna make you? see how differently different you're allowed to be as if there arent 9 other actual human beings spending between 30 minutes to an hour of their lives trying to see a victory screen just once tonight?"
how would that work? its not like the bot lane will not go to mid after the first tower anyways, adcs will gain less gold and experience and in the mid? if that happens pro play games would take so much longer
@@Pariston42 roaming can still be a thing,
But when someone who queues for top gets to champ select, none of the marksmen will be available.
That also means that there will be no yasuo adc to worry about.
The goal is not to chain people to their turrets, but to keep the matchups in the early game consistent.
Disclaimer: A wee bit of yapping occurs below, am open to discussion just be nice about it
I have been saying fleet should be nerfed for years and not just for the reason of ADCs being so strong atm... I just think there is something fundamentally wrong with the rune. My biggest complaint is that it grants champs that are balanced around having poor health sustain and as such are supposed to require skill and selective trading early and then removes their main downside(The most blatant offender of this is Akali mid just face tanking in trades and still out sustaining mages with fleet, but plenty of other champs do this as well). Unfortunately the only way to deal with the issue of fleet sustain being too strong is to nerf the healing numbers or charge speed of the fleet attack, yet ultimately this places it in a pretty similar spot to where lethal tempo ended up where it is either the most broken and dumb thing in the game, or it is completely useless. I Definitely agree with Azaaps take that the precision tree as a whole is too strong and while i would like to see PTA and Conqueror stay relatively the same(maybe even buff them a bit to make them more viable alternatives) considering they are both so iconic and deeply rooted in league, I think the entire precision tree needs to be reworked. This isn't as relevant but i honestly think the resolve tree needs some reworks/fine tuning as well given that aside from second wind/bone plating/demolish its just kind of useless
Note: This is my perspective on the issue as a high emerald/low diamond level player... I am aware that I am by no means an expert at this game, I simply wanted to provide my opinion
Real chads play Jhin lethality mid 🗿
Jhin mid with old 4 i.e was so good
I play jhin lethality jungle, does that count ?
I'm no expert, but i think it's pretty easy to spot the problem - Riot wants different roles to fulfill the different lanes. However, the ONLY thing defining that is literally your queue matchup and the support item. Due to that, you can have anything happen to mid and top as long as they win and they could even act like the same exact lane, except mid may prefer more champions that can escape ganks by movement abilities. Basically the only roles set in stone are jungle and support and the bot would prefer to be a good mix with its support, but there's no other thing defining the single player lanes or bot.
It's funny how nobody can agree on what is wrong with the game. You have videos like this saying how strong ADCs are and how it's ruining the game. Meanwhile other people are saying how we are in a tank meta. People wonder why Riot never fixes things when even the playerbase can't decide on what is actually too strong.
Who the F said its a tank meta? I legit almost never see any tanks neither in my Diamond games nor on high elo streams xD
@@bohomazdesign725 have you ever go up to master rank at LEAST?😂
People are finally realizing the killing spree fiesta lane (or the poke mage "sp" lane) doesn't suit for scaling champs at all. And by having assassins not being able to rush down any squishy laner since lv3 like the old league, mid has become the real scaling lane.
thank god im no longer a top main bc this is HELL im so fucking sick of seeing smolder and varus top
Just stop playing the game entirely and start enjoying life again
@@datstift610 impossible, you are asking to much its to late for me
Many you must be the most unlucky person ever considering both of those show up in under 1% of games.
@@einjharrelraca I KNOW, ITS BULLSHIT WHY DOES THIS ONLY HAPPEN TO ME >:(
@@chill_bloby sounds like me dealing with invaded when I get off rolled to jungle.
I swear there is a 100% chance I get invaded level 1. Every single time without fail. It's gotten so bad, I just naturally start my enemies red buff now.
In Season 1 Worlds, the German team started creating this ADC + Support strategy, because ADCs need items more than levels, so they play with support to gain more gold. I think waves shouldn't be the same until Herald spawns
I think the best thing they could do is just give every ADC a worse early/mid game but better late game.
To put it into simple terms I want every ADC to feel like Kayle: practically useless early, looking for openings to get more ahead mid game, and then an actual menace for the team to play around late game as they're supposed to.
Or they could adjust their kits too. Like idk why I'm taking more magic damage from an ADC with mostly 4 AD items than a mage with 3 AP items. It's so strange. But I agree overall.
A weird thought i have to solve this is to nerf all base adc movespeed early which would reduce the self peeling factor early on, but itll just lead to an assassin meta.