Ford V-8s had individual intake and exhaust ports since 1961 (36 years before the LS came out) Ford V-8s had 4 head bolts per cylinder since the 1950s (40 years before the LS came out) Ford V-8s have had a Y-block since 1990 (7 years before the LS came out) Ford V-8s have had a 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3 since the 1980s (Ford numbers the cylinders differently -1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8, however if you number them like a Chevy this is the order) Ford 351C had the coolant intake in the block since 1969 If anything, the LS is Chevy's version of a Ford V-8. That's not a bad thing, they drug out the siamesed intake ports and exhaust ports and no crankshaft skirt for long enough. The Godzilla is a larger version of a traditional Ford V-8 modernized as much as you can modernize a large 2 valve pushrod V-8.
Big Chevy guy here. That said, You absolutely nailed it, the splayed valve Cleveland Head is absolutely GOATed in the Pushrod/OHV engine world ! Ford deserves all their flowers!
The venerable, still competitive 1970 351C 4V was virtually a GM invention, since Bunkie Knudson & Larry Shinoda, father of the Boss 302, got lured to Ford from GM.❤
Appreciate that, we Ford guys most definitely respect the compatibility of the LS being able to fit into literally about anything and the power/performance has been a thorn in our ass for years. LS motors sound really good too. I do hope Ford will make an aluminum block 7.3
Big exhaust ports with a decent compression ratio. It is one of the best. Up there with the Boss 429 which also has huge ports and a higher compression ratio.
I agree 1000%. I had a mild 351 Clevo in my old '82 Falcon and the noise it made was a country mile ahead of the Windsors and S/C Coyote (Miami to be most correct) I've had since.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,its introduction during the era of no performance smog,,,,,,,,I'd like to find an ' M ' mill out of an old truck and build a stroker,,,,,,,
There's a TH-camr who built an engine out of a 400M. Made great power but he had to use his savvy to get around engineered smog traits. Also rods and crank aren't common aftermarket parts.
I went through a 7.3 a little over a year ago. A customer bought it to swap into a Torino. I think it came from a wrecked 2019 or 2020 F250. First glance, I thought it was a 351W! I actually had a 351W on a stand next to it, and the 7.3 isn't too much bigger. It's a compact engine for the displacement. The engine was in mint shape, low miles. Basically just a freshen up, stayed mostly stock. The heads are impressive. They will clearly support strong output. The valve springs are funky, really tall beehives. The block is beefy, and the crank is forged. The oil pump is driven by a chain on the crank snout that runs a shaft going the length of the engine. It's different. And the oil pump output is variable, the computer controls a solenoid regulating the oil pump. The 7.3 has a roller trunion rocker with a solid tip, much like GM LS engines. The hydraulic roller lifters look like typical production stuff. The 7.3 does have variable cam timing, which I love. It's an excellent engine all around. I was impressed. It uses a Modular bell housing pattern, but it doesn't have a bore in the crank flange for a pilot bearing. Might be able to machine one, but I have not tried yet. Years ago when I first worked on a LS1 I thought GM copied Ford! It looked like a Windsor up top and a Modular at the bottom. Thanks for the video.
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage HI Andy, he said the 7.3 came out of an F250. That's not the same as a Godzilla 7.3,is it? Love your videos, looking forward to more on this beast!
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Thanks Andy,I just watched a couple of videos about the engine coming in the bigger Ford trucks. I'd been under the impression, that this was a crate engine from Ford, built for drag racing! In the videos, it talked about lifter or upper engine components failing,at around 30,000 miles! That's not good! As always, love your videos & best of luck with Casper & your other projects!
I currently have a Godzilla in process at Bryan Wolf's engine shop. Almost complete and dyno ready as of today 4 18 23.. Installing it in a 1969 Mustang Mach 1 similar to the one I had in high school. Twin 70mm turbo's, Holley EFI, Liberty 5 speed. Steet car but as I make my living building drag race cars for the last 34 years this will be built as a "drag and drive/drag week concept". Excellent vid, keep up the good work.
ANDY you forgot to mention that the LS IS A COPY OF FORD'S PORT LAYOUT as well as bolt pattern so much so there are guys bolting them too Windsor blocks on TH-cam . Factor your information on top definitely NOT LS ! Nice work you should add that bit into your video if you can. Your bit on the Gurnee Westlake heads kinda covers it but you really got to spell it out for other folks 😂
It is a fine design for sure. I am removing all of my comments Andy , I am sorry that this devolved into a pissing contest over who engines it is the most like. I love it, everything I ever learned about making a head work is right here on yours and Tim’s channels . I was on Tim’s channel when Darin was on your chat. I guess I must’ve mucked it all up mentioning that tractor engine that beat Enzo Ferrari with that hunk of junk. Sorry about that.
Oddly there really are only 2 firing order's used on cross plane motors , its just chev uses the left - right designation & #1 is on the opposite bank .
Uncle Tony did a review of the Godzilla when it was announced and he GUSHED over it, immediately seeing its strengths that would make a great drag racing motor. One interesting thing that I noted, which again Uncle Tony had touched on in a more recent video is that the Godzilla has a REAR oil sump, meaning that it will live better under acceleration.
Ford built amazing cam in block engines Fe, SBF Windsor/Cleveland, 385 series 460/429. Also you will know about this more than I do. How similar are the 429scj heads to the Cleveland ? After all the 385 series had canted valves and the same oiling system as the 351 Cleveland… and could displace upwards of 500ci stock that to me is real powerhouse that so many people over look especially because of the mailaise era really killed the performance and fun. The 385 and 335 series Fords were products of what Ford learned during their total performance era mass produced race engines that with a little work would eat anything that crossed their path. Love your videos my friend. Wish you all the best.
I am excited about the Godzilla engine platform. I want to do one of these engines. Glad Ford is back in the push rod engine game. Great video Andy. Thanks for sharing. Take care, Ed.
I always thought the LS looked like a modernized Ford engine. Ford went and started something new with the modular, and chevy started making modernized, pushrod Fords. So, I call a Clevor build nostalgic....but....is it really? Lol. I am glad Ford is modernizing a Ford engine (Godzilla) and I hope Chevy does something modular.
@bigboreracing356 actually leave it to any guy that pulls down 10s of 1000s dollars a month, and is a car guy. Doesn't matter what their favorite brand is...
@@bigboreracing356 And your lack of use of factual information is know as assumption. Which is all you are basing your inaccurate comments on and doubling down on. Maybe it's your comprehension that is what is really in question.
@@bigboreracing356 what are you even talking about last video of your car you had a gallon jug in your floor pan catching water where you had a blown head gasket from that janky big block Chevy in a fox
What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun. Ecclesiastes 1.9 This holds true in the automotive world. Those engineers from the "old days" were smart. That is why people today build on what they accomplished.
Am I a GM guy born and raised….but any motor that can take a 700/1000th lift on a stock head will make some power I can’t wait to see what cams start showing up for the big boy.
I've always been a Ford fan, and especially like the Cleveland engines. I currently have a 351C in my '73 Mach 1. Enjoyed the video, and I can see the comparisons you made between the Cleveland and the Godzilla engines. It's definately not a LS. Glad Ford brought out this motor out.
The LS has always reminded me of a SBF, Windsor, 335 series, and Y block. I believe that generic motors took the best of Ford, and claimed it was something new, and innovative.
The Godzilla and the LS are very similar, but my argument is that the LS traces its design features to Ford designs. Symmetrical ports, Ford firing order ( 4/7 2/3 flip........Flathead ). Deep skirt block ( Ford Y Block ). As you pointed out, Ford took an idea from Trick Flow and played around with the valve angles and chambers. So it can be argued that everybody copies everybody......nothing new under the sun.
No one ever thinks about BOP motors or Cadillac motors either when comparing this newer stuff most of those weren't a true big block or small block either and this besides a fact a lot of these automotive engineers move around from company to company
There are hints of the Small Block Buick in the LS along with the Windsor and Cleveland, the Windsor came first and I think the 9.5 Windsor is superior to the Cleveland because of the bottom end strength, room for stroker cranks and when you use a modern Twisted Wedge cylinder head all the power it there, a 460 Windsor can easily make 700hp+ and is superior to all but the nastiest Clevelands. Above all the Windsor and the LS are significantly more economical than a Cleveland or Godzilla, the only thing that is cheaper is the SBC.
GM first V8 was 1918! Ford 1932 and Ford still copying GM designs! NASCAR wins GM 75, Ford 23! You Ford guys are so hard up for a win that you have to talk all kinds of shit. Really its embarrassing!
I never quite figured out who inspired who, who copied who, and who's better at what. My best guess for now is that the heat control issues of cylinders 5 and 7, and exhaust ports 3 and 5 might have been a deciding factor in how the LS was formed. The sbf platform already dealt with those issues both with split valve patterns, and with what is effectively an LS firing order, eliminating those two issues at once. There are things I enjoy about all 3 smallblock platforms prior to the modern era. Mopar wedge-head smallblocks had fantastic exhaust port design early on (LA series leading into the Magnum engines), sbc's rear-sump oiling system and more modular water pump mounting solution made them both ubiquitous and inexpensive, and ford smallblocks had an amazing top end package. I like the design of the 7.3l because it seems like it was designed and engineeered moreso from the perspective of a mechanic/technician, and I can appreciate that. I can take the intake manifold off completely without having to touch the fueling system. It has a similar self-adjusting valvetrain setup like the LS/LT engine families, making valvetrain life and service more straightforward (not to mention no VCM in sight). Strong block webbing for really good reinforcement. all in all, I'm heavily considering working with one as soon as I'm done with with my Camaro's 4.8l.
I run small and large port Cleveland's, as well as 5.0 Windsor's. Personally, I'll take a Cleveland almost every time. Once you bring it up to modern 5.0 windsor equivalent build spec's, thin rings, roller cam etc, and add bronze guides, it's far less troublesome. The greatest advantage is the dry intake manifold. I hate anything with a wet intake, don't care who makes it. As too the Godzilla being a Cleveland based motor... well it's an evolution of the flat head. Until they carry the block forward far enough that the timing cover just becomes a flat plate, is it really an evolution of the Cleveland? In my opinion, the greatest benefits of the Cleveland are, canted valve cylinder heads, dry intake manifold, flat plate timing cover. As you probably know better than I do, early Windsor's all ran the 1,5 .. firing order, the 1,3.. firing order was supposedly introduced to reduce Boss 302 front main web failures from the loading of consecutive firing strokes loading it. Interesting that they keep going back to it. I never build Windsor's with a 1,5.. firing order anymore, and it appears that even my stockish motor builds have increased life expectancy because of it. Good video Andy. Regards Greg
Thanks Greg, I think it is really interesting that Ford went back to the Flathead firing order.. Here in the US it was hard to find a 1372 Windsor cam for small blocks back in the 80's most just put the 1 5 firing cam .. To me there is nothing better sounding than the Cleveland/Windsor firing order.. I guess that is why I became a Ford guy to begin with, the Foxbody mustangs had the most unique sound On the Godzilla we are going to try and be deep into the 4's 1/8th mile on Nitrous. Stay tuned Andy
Australia kept the Cleveland for a long time after Ford US abandoned it. Harmonics and crank walk at around 5-6k rpm would kill them when held in that range in stock(ish) form. Upgraded thrust bearings and some fettling took care of that, or if you have big port heads and enough cam in it then you can drive straight through the critical rpm zone and they would eat it all day long. Love the Clevo!
@@jaisonbairstow3753 In the late 1970s NASCAR had used up most of the Cleveland blocks suitable for racing. There was a number of Clevelands cast in Australia (all the tooling had been shipped there) specifically for racing and the rough blocks were shipped to the States. Unfortunately most were not OK'd for racing due to some issues in casting (most of those ended up being used in Production cars/trucks due to how hard is was to find Cleveland blocks at that point). So only a few Ford teams had them (Melling, Wood Bros, Bud Moore, etc.) Keep in mind all the better teams in NASCAR switched to aluminum heads in the early 80s and you bet your sweet behind Ford engine builders kept the canted valve angles for heads going on Cleveland blocks. In 1985 - Waddell Wilson could not get his hands on Cleveland blocks when they switch the 28 Ranier team to Ford - so they used Windsor blocks and had to work out a lot of "stuff" to make it all work (this was when the whole Clevor thing started - Cleveland style heads with canted valves on a Windsor block). Within a few years all the Ford teams had to switch to Windsor blocks.
Clevos are a wet valley. With originally the big tin tray intake gasket. The Clevo is a great anchor,, poor oiling as well as cooling. The W engine is far better. The W heads leave a lot to be desired though Clevo heads do bolt on. I am going from a Clevo to a Boss 302/347 engine with CHI heads. I will have another 1000 rpm to use and far safer. And far lighter as well. Engine weight is lap time as the car will steer a LOT better
The Godzilla. Reminds me of a FE. & Y block the heads look to be like a modern cleavland in a way. Now if you were to look at a LS. It looks like a FE. With a. 312 Y block . Deck to valley design. Just sealed up the LS heads are Windsor designs. Same port location and spacing and port to center design. The LS. Incorporates ford designs. Even the center thrust bearing now to me. Looking at the Godzilla. It's a cleavland style headed. Modern FE. Block the reason it even resembles a LS is because the LS resembles. Ford designs. Think about it my 2 cents for the day
GM first V8 was 1918! Ford 1932 and Ford still copying GM designs! NASCAR wins GM 75, Ford 23! You Ford guys are so hard up for a win that you have to talk all kinds of shit. Really its embarrassing!
My dad had a 351 Cleveland in a 56 ford pick up truck. With side exhaust the most beautiful music you ever heard. Had a Carter 4 barrel carb, Comp camshaft, a few other mods. Didn't know how lucky I was to be driven to school in it in the 1980s.
I built a lot of 351C blocks in my day. It is the least understood V8 American block IMHO but the one with the most potential. My favorite American V8.
Very nice video! Thanks for sharing and putting this together. I say the Godzilla is much more of a Cleveland! I am partial to the Cleveland’s and I have plans on building one in the near future. I acquired some 1970 Cleveland high compression 4V heads and I have spent a lot of time studying them. I can’t wait to use them for my build. Thanks again for sharing. “Long live the Cleveland’s”!
. much needed Ford info, Andy👏 Fox body guys jumped on the 7.3, and the aftermarket is following. They've put these in Mustangs with stock hoods! The big story on these blocks is their strength and durability. And they love forced induction. If someone wants a popular channel, put a Godzilla in a 10th generation F150! Don't think it's been done yet. 🙂👍
@@bigboreracing356 Not me. Brian Wolfe has made more than 1800 hp. As time goes by the interest in the 7.3 will go up and the block will continue to grow stronger. Ford iron was always a minimum in even the FE, the 390 was at 32,000 PSI, that is very close to diesel iron. I have original cores now that a hone brush would be be fine for a rering. The 7.3 is as strong as a Top Fuel block. The Coyote is a good block but there are too many gotchas for Sportsman racing. I can get all I need from an FE. I have a good friend with a 427 Ford and an 8-71 that was doing 1100 hp on street gas and driving in on the street. Good enough for me. Connie Kalita and Don Prudhome Ran FE SOHC, this block is better than this.
@@Bbbbad724 The aftermarket has stepped up with modified oil pans and intakes to lower the height of the engine. I heard it's recommended to use forged Pistons and stronger conrods above around 800 HP. And there's just something about a pushrod Ford for us old Blue Oval guys. The stock motor weighs about like a FE or 429/460, which is more than an LS, I'm pretty sure. How about a 7.3 with a small turbo in a 64 Galaxy? 😮?
@@outlawbillionairez9780 I have built engines for 50 years, I believe I can build an FE blind. My first was my uncles 58 Ford that I built as a 361 Edsel/Police Interceptor the car rusted away around it. You are singing my song! I am building a 390.030 over, 396FE that makes 500 ft lbs and 460 hp that with 8 lbs boost and a VS7875 ( 75/82 125 trim will make 835 hp that will go in my 65 Galaxie. Boost is just good! Build it for torque and put the right turbo on with a good boost curve.
@@Bbbbad724 hahaha! "Boost is good!" .. well thank you, Mr Holdener! 😂 That sounds like an awesome street car! The 390 is my favorite FE. A great balance of bottom end torque and RPM horsepower. You don't see a lot of them boosted, maybe because they start out so good. I've owned almost every Ford engine from the little 221 through to the truck 4.6 I have now. The 390 is just great! 👍
Thank you! I have been saying for years the LS heads draw A LOT from the G-W heads used on Indy and GT40 Windsor’s. Cross bolting of course goes back to the 427 FE’s and coil on plug has been in Europe for decades. Even though it sounds like it I don’t like poring fuel of who stole from who because the LS is a great engine. Only so many ways to skin a cat however.
It's all less stealing and more convergent evolution. Certain designs just work and work well at least when it comes to design mandates. That's like the four bolt heads and symmetrical ports really weren't about cribbing Ford so much as GM needed a great flowing head and the siamesed ports on the SBC limited flow at least on a production engine. That of course also made the traditional five bolts ringing the cylinder unfeasible from a production standpoint. Other things like the center thrust bearing are just good design and isn't just endemic to Ford engines and when GM abandoned the small block architecture they dumped the rear thrust bearing as well. IIRC Godzilla uses a .842 diameter lifter which is the same as the LS and the Gen III hemi making it the industry standard depsite the traditional lifter diameters being larger.
Although the lack of water crossover in the intake manifold and valve arrangement are indicative of a Cleveland, I DO sustain it's more of an FE speaking of external dimensions and bore spacing. 445ci is also a common FE stroker displacement. Fun fact, the OHC 6.2L V8 was ORIGINALLY a 427 OHC Experimental engine. If that sounds familiar, it was essentially a new gen cammer. At 7:20 you mentioned the timing order. If I'm not mistaken, they did that to keep heat down in the manifold but take that with a grain of salt.
Andy, there is no doubt that the LS engine copied the Y-block and FE engine design. The only limiting factors of those engines was core shift and thin wall castings. Even now, some of the most successful racers build "block extensions " for their otherwise 4-bolt main blocks. Dennis Taylor is one of the most notable doing this. His big-block Chevy has a custom lower block extension and main caps that he machined himself for cross-bolting his block. The head design on the Godzilla is probably the best I've seen, without being a hemi head or a Coyote style overhead cam design. It not only unshrouds the valves with it's canted design, but the virtually straight shot from port to valve eliminates the need for any but the most basic polishing. Cleetus McFarland has taken a stock Godzilla, with a turbocharger, in a Foxbody to some really incredible numbers. The only real "con" to the Godzilla is it's intake. Plastic, in my opinion, should never be used in the heat of an engine bay, let alone on a critical part like the intake. An aluminum version in which the ports have been smoothed by the old extruded abrasive method would be ideal however, and should be Ford Motorsports next offering, if they're smart. What do you think?
The reason they go with plastic intakes, and have for a long time, is that the internals are ALREADY smooth. Also, plastic doesn't absorb heat and transfer it into the air inside. It also reduces overall weight of the engine.
@@mikeford963 I can understand that, but they also tend to shatter when any real boost is put to them. It could just as easily be made from AL and then use the abrasive extrusion paste, that used to be popular years ago, to smooth the passages.
I would have to agree. Cleveland, the best ford motor ever produced. I learned how to drive in my older brothers 71' BOSS 351 4 speed drag pack car, pretty rare. And it was a Screamer.... I own a really nice 92' foxbody with 80k on the odometer. All 90s mods and major suspension mods original jewel green paint( my baby)... been considering a Godzilla swap with a buit TKX over a coyote, just upgrade the stock cam, gotta have the lope. Any advice would be great. Excellent content man👍
I just did a cam swap on my cleveland powered fox body..it was a real pain to get that flat timing cover on with the oil pan already on...yes I had to do it twice. I think we need to point at Cleetus's Godzilla powered fox mcflurry...he is getting what can only be described as fantastic results..7.54 in the video I watched last night. Problem for me like you stated is price...I expect its going to be a while before they will be junkyard available. I'm looking forward to playing with one someday. Move over LS...there is a new sheriff in town !
I've always said that LS engines are a copy of a 1970s small block Ford. GM went away from the 5 bolt per cylinder and siamese intake/exhaust ports when they designed the LS. There are a number of other changes as well - as GM continued to fine tune their LS design the LS became more and more like a SBF. So any similarity of the Godzilla to an LS is just more confirmation of how good the 1970s small block Ford design was.
The "Mini-Zilla" 6.8 would be nice to learn about if it's similar then Ford may be adding to its legendary engines. The greatest thing is if the 7.3 Godzilla came out in 1967 it would have been a "445 cid"
Straight out of the factory with a cast iron block, steel crank, 4.5" bore centers, alloy canted valve big flow heads, as much as i love my LS & the current popularity of the Coyote there's no denying the Godzillas the next big thing for v8 enthusiasts.
Had a hopped up Cleveland in my Torino GT. Got clocked going through a light at 142 mph to taking my friends mom to the hospital. Nothing like that sound of a Cleveland at full roar
On one of the Cleetus videos they pull down mc flurry's 7.3 and dummy fit a few Ls parts just to see if they fit..Johnson lifters go straight in and rockers look so close it not funny..I don't care if they similar same or otherwise the 7.3 is a Hot Rodder's dream..Ford has done real good with this engine.
The Cleveland is in no way a copy of the big block Chevy head. Ford had a canted valve cylinder on the drawing board in 1962 during the period when Ford was designing their 255” Indy V8 based on the 260 Fairlane engine. The initial head design for that Indy engine was a head based largely on a 260/289 production head. The difference was it used Y-block shaft mounted valve train to stabilize it at sustained high rpm’s. The second phase was a pushrod actuated canted valve cylinder head called the 7 X 7 project (I think that was a reference to the valve angles) but that was stillborn because Ford decided to leap ahead and build the famous DOHC 255 Indy engine which was very successful. The only real similarity is that the bbc popularized the individual stud mounted rocker arms which facilitated the canted valve angles. As a matter of fact that ball/stud rocker arm deal came out of Pontiac engineering and they were supposed to have exclusive rights to it within GM for one year. GM decided to reneg on that deal and allow the sbc and the new Pontiac engine to introduce them simultaneously.
In 1962 Chevy was bolting a canted valve big block engine called the Mk II Mystery Motor into cars and driving them around test tracks. That's way beyond a drawing board.
@@corvettejohn4507 the “Mystery Motor” debuted at Daytona in February 1963. Ford was already experimenting with a canted valve head. It is common for the uninformed to accuse Ford of copying the bbc head. I’m here to set the record straight. It’s nonsense period. GM did popularize the ball stud rocker arm and pushrod oiling. This undeniable and Ford certainly followed suit for a while. By the same token the Boss 429 was the first engine to use individual shaft mounted rocker arms on pedestals but you don’t hear guys going around saying virtually all modern pushrod engines (except Mopar hemis) utilize today including the LS are copied from the Boss.
@@michaelthompson1110 The Mystery Motor may have had it's public debut at the '63 Daytona 500 (actually a week before in the Daytona Continental in a '63 Vette), but Chevy had them running around GM test tracks in Detroit in November, December 1962. At Daytona, Ford exercised it's option under the NASCAR rules and bought 2 Mystery Motors from Chevy which they immediately shipped back to Dearborn and disassembled.
@@corvettejohn4507 okay that doesn’t change a thing. Maybe you missed the part where I said Ford already had a canted valve head on the drawing board and maybe a bit more than that in 1962. It’s pretty unlikely they drew one up after only seeing the mystery motor in the last month of 1962. Ford did of course have a canted valve engine which preceded the 351 Cleveland. Of course I’m speaking of the 385 series. That cylinder head was what came out of the 7 X 7 project and it really was done in such a way so as to put a “tunnel port” on the intake side just like their race engines without the pushrod tube in the airstream. This was putting NASCAR technology in road cars as early as late 1967. Notice though Ford never officially raced the 429 CJ engine. Their 429 was the Boss head. If Ford were copying the Chevy race head how come they never raced it. You would think they’d have one out by 1964 if they were copying Chevy stuff. I’m sure Ford was fully aware that Chevy had the canted valve stuff but they were in no hurry to race something like that maybe primarily the 427 TP could handle the Chevs without too much trouble. You really did see many canted valve Fords until the Bud Moore Cleveland debuted in 1972. Now if you want to look at an engine that laid down the template for what they’re racing even today it was that 351 Cleveland of Bud Moore’s in the early 70’s. That’s the one.
Awesome job. The one thing I would add is that the traditional firing order is not that of the Cleveland that was only used for it. The traditional firing order was; 1 5 4 2 6 3 7 8 for all of the regular small blocks and FEs. Actually although GM motors have a different number one cylinder and a different cylinder number designation, the actual progression is the same as a Chevy and other GM engines. The early Oldsmobile rocket engines had the same progression as the flathead and now the Godzilla. The traditional firing order differed from the flathead by switching the number 2 with number 8. The Cleveland took the traditional order and switched the 3&7 with the 5&4 and was the only one to have this. It also confused a lot of mechanics at the time. I did a study on this and, like you said, the sound is totally different, although it sounds like the Coyote Mustang in the video should have been driven by someone who knew how to drive it. They sound much better than “waga waga waga”.
The Godzilla uses the exact same lifter as an LS, and I promise, the LS/LT were studied, and their strong points considered, Ford did use the ssme bellhousing pattern, across the board on all V8's, Powerstroke (12+) included, and that IS something Chevy has done with RWD V8 truck engines for half a century.
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage One more thing, I just did a cam and lifters in a '15 6.4 and the lifter design is _very similar_ to the LS/LT lifter, but the Godzilla lifter _is exactly_ the same, that is what I meant, no disrepect, the owners were running 5W40 full syn oil, but going 7500 miles between changes, so take that in consideration, the truck had 83,500 miles.
I remember when the Godzilla was still just a conversation and Ford talking about how they desired to take the 7.3 diesel platform and make it gas... never was there any discussion about basing it off a Cleveland engine. Like everyone today, they take some parts of old technologies and incorporate them into new products because they know what works. Sort of like vortec engines using Ford's high swirl that began with the FE in their heads, generating much more torque than the old-school SBC. It's not that that GM based their LS on the Ford FE, they just used a principle that works in a modified port design to improve flow at rpm. Ford did the same thing with the Godzilla, merely taking a few principles that work and applying them to their engine. In the end, the Godzilla is nothing like the Cleveland. Bore centers, head designs, port configurations, oiling systems, even rod ratios and bore to stroke have nothing in common. It's closer in design to the LS, but nowhere near being based upon either...
Okay Andy I will dive into answering the question in full as soon as I watch it again for a second time and work on my answer plus I will pass it on to a couple of them before with I reboot the video. I know that the stuff I have been working on and grew up with is not the most desirable stuff unless you are going for a restoration,the day of rest up the kids because of everyone wanting to race, cruise, restore, and just pound them in the ground to see what they can do to them.
GM first V8 was 1918! Ford 1932 and Ford still copying GM designs! My LV3 powered S10 done wooped 3 godzillas so far and a dozen coyotes! NASCAR wins GM 75, Ford 23! You Ford guys are so hard up for a win that you have to talk all kinds of shit. Really its embarrassing!
Outstanding, Andy!! I'm basically a Ford guy, but have built an LS engine for marine use. First and foremost, the LS head strongly reminds me of a windsor. The Y block design is borrowed from either an FE, modular or Chrysler. I would consider the Godzilla a best practices project vs. a modern day Cleveland. You do these type of video's exceptionally well. I'd like to see you do more of them. Always a fan of Unity Motorsports Garage!!!
Exactly, that's what I said, the LS(Cleveland and Godzilla) is more of a Windsor derivative with hints of Small Block Buick(especially when comparing the tall port 350 heads to the Cathedral port LS.heads).
GM first V8 was 1918! Ford 1932 and Ford still copying GM designs! NASCAR wins GM 75, Ford 23! You Ford guys are so hard up for a win that you have to talk all kinds of shit. Really its embarrassing!
Now if Ford would bring back something simple for the F150. The third-gen Coyote is a dumpster fire, and I'm not touching an Ecoboost. A modern day OHV 5-5.8L V8 would be great.
Vehicles today have gotten overly complicated.. everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel and it drives up the cost of the vehicles.. give me a plain Jane F150 with manual windows and all of the other crap and I would be one happy camper Andy
I thought the Cleavland has the same firing order as all other Ford engines and the 351 Windsor was unique, until the roller 5.0’s came out. Then, once the mod motors came out, they all went with the Windsor firing order. I’m pretty sure of this, because I always wanted to have a cam custom ground for my 460 with the Windsor firing order.
@@ldnwholesale8552 The 5.0L did not have the Windsor firing order until they went to a roller cam. 1986, possibly 1985 in some rare cases, but 1986, roller cam, port fuel injection, and the Windsor firing order all came at the same time. The truck 5.0L had port fuel injection as early as '85, but they weren't roller cam until later.
@@anthonysgarage only the Mustang 302/5.0 had the 351 firing order. Trucks and Crown Vics still used the older firing order. Owned a 91 Criwn Vic cop car 5.0 roller cam had the old style firing order and a unimpressive 165hp. Yes I know most CV cop cars had the 351w vv carb motor some did come with fuel injected 302s speed density, bank fire. Civilian model CV 302 had 145 hp.
'80s Mustang 302's were called 302HO engines, and used the 351w firing order. All other 302's used the older 302 firing order. The 302HO was also used in boats, I had an '89 Seaswirl Spyder with the HO. Cruised 55mph all day long, pretty amazing for a boat of that time.
And the LS has more in common with a Ford Windsor than it does any Chevrolet engine ever produced. I've been saying it for years now since I learned how an LS goes together. Ford went on to build overhead cam engines. And Chevrolet went and perfected the Windsor. I'm not a Ford or Chevy guy. I'm an engine guy so I like it all. But in my opinion, until the LS came out. Ford hands down Made the best small block engines. No comparison.
I think the fairest way to explain the engine platforms is this The short blocks of each era share their most important innovations. Things like crankshaft types , water jacket and deck surface style, mains and head securing. With the odd difference. It is the valve train and porting that make all the difference between brands.
I live in a small rural Nebraska town. The local school district has, in the last couple of years been, with each purchase of a new school buss been replacing the fleet of diesel with gasoline engines. The engine is a detuned (down to 360 hp, lol) Godzilla. The drivers cant get overt the power these motors have (48 and 54 passenger buses) and so far trouble free.
There is some company making a timing cover with a oil pump incorporated in it to get rid of the chain drive and you can also mount a distributor in it
The godzilla may not be an LS but clearly it was designed to compete with the LS if not directly then indirectly in the performance market. As much as I love the coyote the engine has a large footprint, on par with an big block chevy with tall valve covers. The godzilla allows a large displacement engine in a relatively small package similar to the LS but even more so.
Of course Brian Wolfe was one of the main developers of this engine and he's a big drag racer . This engine is the engine of the future and was intended to putting the LS on the trailer . But man what awesome truck engine it is mine has 80k on it big power and torque
Back in the late 80's the Chevy Nascar teams complained constantly to officials that the Ford head had too many advantages over the Small Block Chevy heads. Nascar let the GM teams and GM design a new head to compete with the Cleveland heads which ended up looking like the Ford head.
The fastest lap time in the 1980s in NASCAR was Bill Elliott in the Coors T-Bird he was clocked at over 212mph in qualifying for Talladega. The motor was a 351 V-8 Windsor. That record stood for at least 35 years. Like clockwork GM complained to the NASCAR officials and demanded restrictor plates and manifold restrictions. When GM pulled that BS the Ford's were still lapping Chevy's 3 times!
The y block and windsor firing orders were selected to smooth out the power pulses just like the LS. These firing orders create less stress and improved torsional rigidity. (better cylinder firing balance) There has always been talk about reduction of bearing stress and longevity but this still remains an issue no matter which firing order is being used. These engine run smoother and quieter in stock form. Hopping them up is where they really shine. Just look at the LS. I am not a cleveland fan but the LS block is basically, just a modern day cleveland. The blocks are very similar. All V8 engines, by all engine manufacturers, should have used the y block (4 - 7 swap) or LS (4 - 7 - 2 - 3 swap) firing order from the beginning. You can rev the shit out of these engine without blowing them to smithereens.
How are Cleveland and LS blocks similar?? From the deep skirt cross bolted mains of the LS to the integrated timing cover of the Cleveland, they are nothing alike. Unless being a 90* V8 means similar to you.
Beginning in 2018, (correction 2015) the F150 Coyote uses the 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 firing order shared with the 351 and 302 HO. I believe it mitigates the double whammy of consecutive power strokes on the front main bearing. Conducive to truck durability.
I thought the same thing about the cleveland when I seen a godzilla with the heads off it has a 2.16 intake valve stock I think the only bad thing about it is the cuts between the cylinders for coolant to pass
The thing that's bad about the Godzilla and the Cleveland as well is the cost, a 9.5 Windsor or an LS can be build much more economically and can make all sorts of power, well over 1,000hp at the crank with boost, what more do you need other than the novelty of having something different?
The Cleveland is my favorite motor 1970 -71 casting only, close chambered 4v or 2v only. 4V open chambered are junk throw them away And the real truth is a 351 Windsor with Cleveland heads. Is more reliable at anything over 6,000 RPM unless you install the moroso oil restrictor kit in the Cleveland block and run solid lifters. Basically the Achilles heel of the Cleveland is poor oil routing in the block. I'm sure that new 7.3 Godzilla has fixed that problem. But on a marketing scale if Ford was to really sell a modern-day all aluminum block all aluminum headed 351 Cleveland and name it the 351 Cleveland they would corner of market
You can run a separate external hard line from the rear oil sending unit to the front one to equalize the oil pressure to the rear engine galley. And the restrictor kit. It helps a bunch.
Not trying to be a troll, but I’m sorry, YES IT IS an “LS” first time I saw it I thought to myself, looks like ford made a big block LS, and still think that. Of corse, there are those that think the LS is just Chevy copying ford…. And you can make that argument. I honestly think it’s all good, and my first thoughts of the “ls” was that Chevy finally incorparated some of the cross bolted FE stuff. To me it’s all good, the LS is awesome, ford built a bigger one, and did one better on the valve angles,… even awesomer . But sorry to all the ford fanatics, the 7.3 looks like it borrowed way more than it innovated from the LS. That’s not a bad thing or a dig in any way. Ford did what should have been done, let’s take what works, improve upon it where we can, and make it bigger cause bigger is always better.
Very convincing, closer to a clevo than anything else. The canted valves, Y block design, and thermostat cross over, and it's sewer pipe style large intake ports did it for me.
Great video and thanks for the mention. Love the channel, keep up the great work and let's collaborate on a video sometime!
Absolutely! I can't wait to see your Godzilla hot rod come alive. It's going to be awesome
Andy
Ford V-8s had individual intake and exhaust ports since 1961 (36 years before the LS came out)
Ford V-8s had 4 head bolts per cylinder since the 1950s (40 years before the LS came out)
Ford V-8s have had a Y-block since 1990 (7 years before the LS came out)
Ford V-8s have had a 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3 since the 1980s (Ford numbers the cylinders differently -1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8, however if you number them like a Chevy this is the order)
Ford 351C had the coolant intake in the block since 1969
If anything, the LS is Chevy's version of a Ford V-8. That's not a bad thing, they drug out the siamesed intake ports and exhaust ports and no crankshaft skirt for long enough. The Godzilla is a larger version of a traditional Ford V-8 modernized as much as you can modernize a large 2 valve pushrod V-8.
Nice history and facts. Thanks
Big Chevy guy here. That said, You absolutely nailed it, the splayed valve Cleveland Head is absolutely GOATed in the Pushrod/OHV engine world !
Ford deserves all their flowers!
The venerable, still competitive 1970 351C 4V was virtually a GM invention, since Bunkie Knudson & Larry Shinoda, father of the Boss 302, got lured to Ford from GM.❤
Appreciate that, we Ford guys most definitely respect the compatibility of the LS being able to fit into literally about anything and the power/performance has been a thorn in our ass for years. LS motors sound really good too.
I do hope Ford will make an aluminum block 7.3
@@ManOfChaiTea The LS and LT lines are masterpieces!
So are the Coyote and VooDoo !
@@grandcrappy Thanks for information.
The Cleveland has one of the most satisfying and beautiful exhaust notes of all v8 engines…
I agree with that
Thanks for watching
Andy!
Big exhaust ports with a decent compression ratio. It is one of the best. Up there with the Boss 429 which also has huge ports and a higher compression ratio.
I posted a video of my 351 Cleveland just sitting and idling. No matter what that engine is doing, it sounds good.
I agree 1000%. I had a mild 351 Clevo in my old '82 Falcon and the noise it made was a country mile ahead of the Windsors and S/C Coyote (Miami to be most correct) I've had since.
The Hemi has entered the chat
it also cracks me up that ppl hate on the 400M but its basically just a tall deck Cleveland.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,its introduction during the era of no performance smog,,,,,,,,I'd like to find an ' M ' mill out of an old truck and build a stroker,,,,,,,
There's a TH-camr who built an engine out of a 400M. Made great power but he had to use his savvy to get around engineered smog traits. Also rods and crank aren't common aftermarket parts.
My 400M dropped a valve 🥴
@@marcochavanne rip
I went through a 7.3 a little over a year ago. A customer bought it to swap into a Torino. I think it came from a wrecked 2019 or 2020 F250. First glance, I thought it was a 351W! I actually had a 351W on a stand next to it, and the 7.3 isn't too much bigger. It's a compact engine for the displacement.
The engine was in mint shape, low miles. Basically just a freshen up, stayed mostly stock. The heads are impressive. They will clearly support strong output. The valve springs are funky, really tall beehives. The block is beefy, and the crank is forged. The oil pump is driven by a chain on the crank snout that runs a shaft going the length of the engine. It's different. And the oil pump output is variable, the computer controls a solenoid regulating the oil pump.
The 7.3 has a roller trunion rocker with a solid tip, much like GM LS engines. The hydraulic roller lifters look like typical production stuff. The 7.3 does have variable cam timing, which I love. It's an excellent engine all around. I was impressed. It uses a Modular bell housing pattern, but it doesn't have a bore in the crank flange for a pilot bearing. Might be able to machine one, but I have not tried yet.
Years ago when I first worked on a LS1 I thought GM copied Ford! It looked like a Windsor up top and a Modular at the bottom.
Thanks for the video.
Thank you for watching I'm glad you enjoyed it and they are impressive for their size!
Andy
Really cool to hear!
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage HI Andy, he said the 7.3 came out of an F250. That's not the same as a Godzilla 7.3,is it? Love your videos, looking forward to more on this beast!
@@Mike583 yes it is the new F250 gas engine and there is a shorter stroke 6.8 version of it as well..
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Thanks Andy,I just watched a couple of videos about the engine coming in the bigger Ford trucks. I'd been under the impression, that this was a crate engine from Ford, built for drag racing! In the videos, it talked about lifter or upper engine components failing,at around 30,000 miles! That's not good! As always, love your videos & best of luck with Casper & your other projects!
I currently have a Godzilla in process at Bryan Wolf's engine shop. Almost complete and dyno ready as of today 4 18 23.. Installing it in a 1969 Mustang Mach 1 similar to the one I had in high school. Twin 70mm turbo's, Holley EFI, Liberty 5 speed. Steet car but as I make my living building drag race cars for the last 34 years this will be built as a "drag and drive/drag week concept". Excellent vid, keep up the good work.
Thanks for the kind words! I can't wait to see your ride in action.. should get the job done!
Andy
That sounds like a very rowdy build awesome
Show em how it's done!!!
That thing's going to be a monster.
I’m doing the same thing!
Agreed! It’s the Boss 445. Great job Ford.
ANDY you forgot to mention that the LS IS A COPY OF FORD'S PORT LAYOUT as well as bolt pattern so much so there are guys bolting them too Windsor blocks on TH-cam . Factor your information on top definitely NOT LS ! Nice work you should add that bit into your video if you can. Your bit on the Gurnee Westlake heads kinda covers it but you really got to spell it out for other folks 😂
Love the video! Thanks for the shout out.
Yes Sir you and Evan make an awesome team! Thanks for the kind words
Andy
Great Video Andy. Thanks for the shout out. ❤️ my Cleveland’s. Godzilla seems more Cleveland to me 🏁👍
Anytime Brother! I can't wait to see what it will do... We are hoping to go deep in the 4's 1/8th mile on Nitrous if we can keep it alive!
Andy
It is a fine design for sure. I am removing all of my comments Andy , I am sorry that this devolved into a pissing contest over who engines it is the most like. I love it, everything I ever learned about making a head work is right here on yours and Tim’s channels . I was on Tim’s channel when Darin was on your chat. I guess I must’ve mucked it all up mentioning that tractor engine that beat Enzo Ferrari with that hunk of junk. Sorry about that.
I’d love to see a Godzilla firing order cam for the FE and the 429/460. It’s all Ford, for sure.
Oddly there really are only 2 firing order's used on cross plane motors , its just chev uses the left - right designation & #1 is on the opposite bank .
Uncle Tony did a review of the Godzilla when it was announced and he GUSHED over it, immediately seeing its strengths that would make a great drag racing motor.
One interesting thing that I noted, which again Uncle Tony had touched on in a more recent video is that the Godzilla has a REAR oil sump, meaning that it will live better under acceleration.
Front sump systems should only exist in transverse mount applications IMO. And even then I'd rather have a baffled center sump
Ford built amazing cam in block engines Fe, SBF Windsor/Cleveland, 385 series 460/429. Also you will know about this more than I do. How similar are the 429scj heads to the Cleveland ? After all the 385 series had canted valves and the same oiling system as the 351 Cleveland… and could displace upwards of 500ci stock that to me is real powerhouse that so many people over look especially because of the mailaise era really killed the performance and fun. The 385 and 335 series Fords were products of what Ford learned during their total performance era mass produced race engines that with a little work would eat anything that crossed their path. Love your videos my friend. Wish you all the best.
I am excited about the Godzilla engine platform.
I want to do one of these engines.
Glad Ford is back in the push rod engine game.
Great video Andy.
Thanks for sharing.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks Ed! We are looking to go deep into the 4's with this combo on Nitrous... I have a lot on my plate! Lol
Thanks for watching brother
Andy
Its only 1 pushrod engine
I always thought the LS looked like a modernized Ford engine. Ford went and started something new with the modular, and chevy started making modernized, pushrod Fords. So, I call a Clevor build nostalgic....but....is it really? Lol. I am glad Ford is modernizing a Ford engine (Godzilla) and I hope Chevy does something modular.
Well, that settles it. I was debating replacing the Windsor in my 96 Bronco with a Coyote, but the Godzilla definitely won me over.
Camshaft in the block the way God intended!
You know Cletus Mcfarland is a huge LS fan, but he is super hyped with his Godzilla mustang right now.
Give me the time and Money will see exactly what it will do... Lol the NC Pain Train is about to leave the station...
Andy
@bigboreracing356 actually leave it to any guy that pulls down 10s of 1000s dollars a month, and is a car guy. Doesn't matter what their favorite brand is...
@@bigboreracing356 All ford guys?... Don't give up your day job...
@@bigboreracing356 And your lack of use of factual information is know as assumption. Which is all you are basing your inaccurate comments on and doubling down on. Maybe it's your comprehension that is what is really in question.
@@bigboreracing356 what are you even talking about last video of your car you had a gallon jug in your floor pan catching water where you had a blown head gasket from that janky big block Chevy in a fox
What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun. Ecclesiastes 1.9 This holds true in the automotive world. Those engineers from the "old days" were smart. That is why people today build on what they accomplished.
Am I a GM guy born and raised….but any motor that can take a 700/1000th lift on a stock head will make some power I can’t wait to see what cams start showing up for the big boy.
I've always been a Ford fan, and especially like the Cleveland engines. I currently have a 351C in my '73 Mach 1. Enjoyed the video, and I can see the comparisons you made between the Cleveland and the Godzilla engines. It's definately not a LS. Glad Ford brought out this motor out.
The LS has always reminded me of a SBF, Windsor, 335 series, and Y block. I believe that generic motors took the best of Ford, and claimed it was something new, and innovative.
That's exactly what happened
Hmmm . I been looking for them Ole Henry's in Dirt oval stock cars and modifieds.. Obsolete. .
WOW what rock did you just crawl out from under???@@joshpitts7256
That was great Andy, I always like research into engines. Yup Tim is one great guy and Cleveland officianato.
Aussies love the Cleveland that’s why we kept putting them in fords until 1982 the best blocks are the later black version
The Godzilla and the LS are very similar, but my argument is that the LS traces its design features to Ford designs. Symmetrical ports, Ford firing order ( 4/7 2/3 flip........Flathead ). Deep skirt block ( Ford Y Block ). As you pointed out, Ford took an idea from Trick Flow and played around with the valve angles and chambers. So it can be argued that everybody copies everybody......nothing new under the sun.
No one ever thinks about BOP motors or Cadillac motors either when comparing this newer stuff most of those weren't a true big block or small block either and this besides a fact a lot of these automotive engineers move around from company to company
Gm used symmetrical ports before. The ls has nothing to do with a sbf. If it did then it wouldn't run as good as it does.
There are hints of the Small Block Buick in the LS along with the Windsor and Cleveland, the Windsor came first and I think the 9.5 Windsor is superior to the Cleveland because of the bottom end strength, room for stroker cranks and when you use a modern Twisted Wedge cylinder head all the power it there, a 460 Windsor can easily make 700hp+ and is superior to all but the nastiest Clevelands. Above all the Windsor and the LS are significantly more economical than a Cleveland or Godzilla, the only thing that is cheaper is the SBC.
GM first V8 was 1918! Ford 1932 and Ford still copying GM designs! NASCAR wins GM 75, Ford 23! You Ford guys are so hard up for a win that you have to talk all kinds of shit. Really its embarrassing!
If you really want to talk about that gm actually did it first in older buses I can't remember the engine but I'm pretty sure it was 60s
I never quite figured out who inspired who, who copied who, and who's better at what. My best guess for now is that the heat control issues of cylinders 5 and 7, and exhaust ports 3 and 5 might have been a deciding factor in how the LS was formed. The sbf platform already dealt with those issues both with split valve patterns, and with what is effectively an LS firing order, eliminating those two issues at once.
There are things I enjoy about all 3 smallblock platforms prior to the modern era. Mopar wedge-head smallblocks had fantastic exhaust port design early on (LA series leading into the Magnum engines), sbc's rear-sump oiling system and more modular water pump mounting solution made them both ubiquitous and inexpensive, and ford smallblocks had an amazing top end package.
I like the design of the 7.3l because it seems like it was designed and engineeered moreso from the perspective of a mechanic/technician, and I can appreciate that. I can take the intake manifold off completely without having to touch the fueling system. It has a similar self-adjusting valvetrain setup like the LS/LT engine families, making valvetrain life and service more straightforward (not to mention no VCM in sight). Strong block webbing for really good reinforcement.
all in all, I'm heavily considering working with one as soon as I'm done with with my Camaro's 4.8l.
I run small and large port Cleveland's, as well as 5.0 Windsor's. Personally, I'll take a Cleveland almost every time. Once you bring it up to modern 5.0 windsor equivalent build spec's, thin rings, roller cam etc, and add bronze guides, it's far less troublesome. The greatest advantage is the dry intake manifold. I hate anything with a wet intake, don't care who makes it. As too the Godzilla being a Cleveland based motor... well it's an evolution of the flat head. Until they carry the block forward far enough that the timing cover just becomes a flat plate, is it really an evolution of the Cleveland? In my opinion, the greatest benefits of the Cleveland are, canted valve cylinder heads, dry intake manifold, flat plate timing cover. As you probably know better than I do, early Windsor's all ran the 1,5 .. firing order, the 1,3.. firing order was supposedly introduced to reduce Boss 302 front main web failures from the loading of consecutive firing strokes loading it. Interesting that they keep going back to it. I never build Windsor's with a 1,5.. firing order anymore, and it appears that even my stockish motor builds have increased life expectancy because of it. Good video Andy. Regards Greg
Thanks Greg, I think it is really interesting that Ford went back to the Flathead firing order..
Here in the US it was hard to find a 1372 Windsor cam for small blocks back in the 80's most just put the 1 5 firing cam .. To me there is nothing better sounding than the Cleveland/Windsor firing order.. I guess that is why I became a Ford guy to begin with, the Foxbody mustangs had the most unique sound
On the Godzilla we are going to try and be deep into the 4's 1/8th mile on Nitrous. Stay tuned
Andy
Australia kept the Cleveland for a long time after Ford US abandoned it. Harmonics and crank walk at around 5-6k rpm would kill them when held in that range in stock(ish) form. Upgraded thrust bearings and some fettling took care of that, or if you have big port heads and enough cam in it then you can drive straight through the critical rpm zone and they would eat it all day long. Love the Clevo!
@@jaisonbairstow3753 In the late 1970s NASCAR had used up most of the Cleveland blocks suitable for racing. There was a number of Clevelands cast in Australia (all the tooling had been shipped there) specifically for racing and the rough blocks were shipped to the States. Unfortunately most were not OK'd for racing due to some issues in casting (most of those ended up being used in Production cars/trucks due to how hard is was to find Cleveland blocks at that point). So only a few Ford teams had them (Melling, Wood Bros, Bud Moore, etc.) Keep in mind all the better teams in NASCAR switched to aluminum heads in the early 80s and you bet your sweet behind Ford engine builders kept the canted valve angles for heads going on Cleveland blocks. In 1985 - Waddell Wilson could not get his hands on Cleveland blocks when they switch the 28 Ranier team to Ford - so they used Windsor blocks and had to work out a lot of "stuff" to make it all work (this was when the whole Clevor thing started - Cleveland style heads with canted valves on a Windsor block). Within a few years all the Ford teams had to switch to Windsor blocks.
Clevos are a wet valley. With originally the big tin tray intake gasket.
The Clevo is a great anchor,, poor oiling as well as cooling. The W engine is far better. The W heads leave a lot to be desired though Clevo heads do bolt on.
I am going from a Clevo to a Boss 302/347 engine with CHI heads. I will have another 1000 rpm to use and far safer. And far lighter as well. Engine weight is lap time as the car will steer a LOT better
@@ldnwholesale8552 Cleveland's are a dry valley. They have NO WATER flow through them
The Godzilla. Reminds me of a FE. & Y block the heads look to be like a modern cleavland in a way. Now if you were to look at a LS. It looks like a FE. With a. 312 Y block . Deck to valley design. Just sealed up the LS heads are Windsor designs. Same port location and spacing and port to center design. The LS. Incorporates ford designs. Even the center thrust bearing now to me. Looking at the Godzilla. It's a cleavland style headed. Modern FE. Block the reason it even resembles a LS is because the LS resembles. Ford designs. Think about it my 2 cents for the day
I'm with you David!
Thanks for watching
Andy
GM first V8 was 1918! Ford 1932 and Ford still copying GM designs! NASCAR wins GM 75, Ford 23! You Ford guys are so hard up for a win that you have to talk all kinds of shit. Really its embarrassing!
My dad had a 351 Cleveland in a 56 ford pick up truck. With side exhaust the most beautiful music you ever heard. Had a Carter 4 barrel carb, Comp camshaft, a few other mods. Didn't know how lucky I was to be driven to school in it in the 1980s.
This is a great and very informative video for us Ford guys. I didn't know all that much about the Godzilla but I do now. Keep them coming and thanks.
Pretty cool for an engine designed for fleet service in light and medium duty trucks.
True but that is going to be one of its biggest drawbacks as well.. not many in the wrecking yards!
Andy
I built a lot of 351C blocks in my day. It is the least understood V8 American block IMHO but the one with the most potential. My favorite American V8.
You are so right!
Andy
Very nice video! Thanks for sharing and putting this together. I say the Godzilla is much more of a Cleveland! I am partial to the Cleveland’s and I have plans on building one in the near future. I acquired some 1970 Cleveland high compression 4V heads and I have spent a lot of time studying them. I can’t wait to use them for my build. Thanks again for sharing. “Long live the Cleveland’s”!
Very interesting, thanks for the video, I'm with you though, I think it has closer ties to the Cleveland.
Thanks for watching Parrish!
Andy
Thank you very much. Somebody else finally said it. Ford never had big blocks and small blocks they had engine families.
. much needed Ford info, Andy👏 Fox body guys jumped on the 7.3, and the aftermarket is following. They've put these in Mustangs with stock hoods!
The big story on these blocks is their strength and durability. And they love forced induction.
If someone wants a popular channel, put a Godzilla in a 10th generation F150! Don't think it's been done yet. 🙂👍
@@bigboreracing356 Not me. Brian Wolfe has made more than 1800 hp. As time goes by the interest in the 7.3 will go up and the block will continue to grow stronger. Ford iron was always a minimum in even the FE, the 390 was at 32,000 PSI, that is very close to diesel iron. I have original cores now that a hone brush would be be fine for a rering. The 7.3 is as strong as a Top Fuel block. The Coyote is a good block but there are too many gotchas for Sportsman racing. I can get all I need from an FE. I have a good friend with a 427 Ford and an 8-71 that was doing 1100 hp on street gas and driving in on the street. Good enough for me. Connie Kalita and Don Prudhome Ran FE SOHC, this block is better than this.
@@Bbbbad724 The aftermarket has stepped up with modified oil pans and intakes to lower the height of the engine. I heard it's recommended to use forged Pistons and stronger conrods above around 800 HP.
And there's just something about a pushrod Ford for us old Blue Oval guys.
The stock motor weighs about like a FE or 429/460, which is more than an LS, I'm pretty sure.
How about a 7.3 with a small turbo in a 64 Galaxy? 😮?
@@outlawbillionairez9780 I have built engines for 50 years, I believe I can build an FE blind. My first was my uncles 58 Ford that I built as a 361 Edsel/Police Interceptor the car rusted away around it. You are singing my song! I am building a 390.030 over, 396FE that makes 500 ft lbs and 460 hp that with 8 lbs boost and a VS7875 ( 75/82 125 trim will make 835 hp that will go in my 65 Galaxie. Boost is just good! Build it for torque and put the right turbo on with a good boost curve.
@@Bbbbad724 hahaha! "Boost is good!" .. well thank you, Mr Holdener! 😂
That sounds like an awesome street car! The 390 is my favorite FE. A great balance of bottom end torque and RPM horsepower. You don't see a lot of them boosted, maybe because they start out so good. I've owned almost every Ford engine from the little 221 through to the truck 4.6 I have now. The 390 is just great! 👍
@@bigboreracing356 Don't forget the almighty 427 SOHC 2V Cammer V8 as well.
Gotta love the 7.3L Godzilla V8 🐲 brother, it's a great swap for an old school muscle car, hotrod, or heck even an old school F100 as well.
Another great Video, cant wait to see more on this engine
Another killer video Andy and I’ve been sub to Brian and Evan for a long time both great Chanel’s with killer content
Keith those guys are top notch and are down to earth folk! They do awesome work
Andy
Thank you! I have been saying for years the LS heads draw A LOT from the G-W heads used on Indy and GT40 Windsor’s. Cross bolting of course goes back to the 427 FE’s and coil on plug has been in Europe for decades. Even though it sounds like it I don’t like poring fuel of who stole from who because the LS is a great engine. Only so many ways to skin a cat however.
Thank you Bill for watching!
I'm glad you enjoyed it
Andy
It's all less stealing and more convergent evolution. Certain designs just work and work well at least when it comes to design mandates. That's like the four bolt heads and symmetrical ports really weren't about cribbing Ford so much as GM needed a great flowing head and the siamesed ports on the SBC limited flow at least on a production engine. That of course also made the traditional five bolts ringing the cylinder unfeasible from a production standpoint. Other things like the center thrust bearing are just good design and isn't just endemic to Ford engines and when GM abandoned the small block architecture they dumped the rear thrust bearing as well.
IIRC Godzilla uses a .842 diameter lifter which is the same as the LS and the Gen III hemi making it the industry standard depsite the traditional lifter diameters being larger.
Although the lack of water crossover in the intake manifold and valve arrangement are indicative of a Cleveland, I DO sustain it's more of an FE speaking of external dimensions and bore spacing. 445ci is also a common FE stroker displacement. Fun fact, the OHC 6.2L V8 was ORIGINALLY a 427 OHC Experimental engine. If that sounds familiar, it was essentially a new gen cammer.
At 7:20 you mentioned the timing order. If I'm not mistaken, they did that to keep heat down in the manifold but take that with a grain of salt.
Reven Evan is the man!!!
Andy, what can I say… thanks good information man. As always excellent video.
Thanks for watching and for the kind words.. I can't wait to dig into this Engine!
Andy
When Ford made the 351 Windsor it had a different firing order to the 302 Windsor. Frod claimed it was to revise the loading on the crankshaft.
I do like a dry intake manifold that the Cleveland's used and big block Chryslers, makes life very easy to change an intake manifold
It makes life so much easier... That is why I made MIXED UP BOSS a dry design..
Andy
Andy, there is no doubt that the LS engine copied the Y-block and FE engine design. The only limiting factors of those engines was core shift and thin wall castings. Even now, some of the most successful racers build "block extensions " for their otherwise 4-bolt main blocks. Dennis Taylor is one of the most notable doing this. His big-block Chevy has a custom lower block extension and main caps that he machined himself for cross-bolting his block.
The head design on the Godzilla is probably the best I've seen, without being a hemi head or a Coyote style overhead cam design. It not only unshrouds the valves with it's canted design, but the virtually straight shot from port to valve eliminates the need for any but the most basic polishing. Cleetus McFarland has taken a stock Godzilla, with a turbocharger, in a Foxbody to some really incredible numbers.
The only real "con" to the Godzilla is it's intake. Plastic, in my opinion, should never be used in the heat of an engine bay, let alone on a critical part like the intake. An aluminum version in which the ports have been smoothed by the old extruded abrasive method would be ideal however, and should be Ford Motorsports next offering, if they're smart. What do you think?
The reason they go with plastic intakes, and have for a long time, is that the internals are ALREADY smooth. Also, plastic doesn't absorb heat and transfer it into the air inside. It also reduces overall weight of the engine.
@@mikeford963 I can understand that, but they also tend to shatter when any real boost is put to them. It could just as easily be made from AL and then use the abrasive extrusion paste, that used to be popular years ago, to smooth the passages.
@@mitchhuested6244 True, but when you're dealing with that level of boost, you're usually doing a custom intake anyway
I would have to agree. Cleveland, the best ford motor ever produced. I learned how to drive in my older brothers 71' BOSS 351 4 speed drag pack car, pretty rare. And it was a Screamer.... I own a really nice 92' foxbody with 80k on the odometer. All 90s mods and major suspension mods original jewel green paint( my baby)... been considering a Godzilla swap with a buit TKX over a coyote, just upgrade the stock cam, gotta have the lope. Any advice would be great. Excellent content man👍
I just did a cam swap on my cleveland powered fox body..it was a real pain to get that flat timing cover on with the oil pan already on...yes I had to do it twice. I think we need to point at Cleetus's Godzilla powered fox mcflurry...he is getting what can only be described as fantastic results..7.54 in the video I watched last night. Problem for me like you stated is price...I expect its going to be a while before they will be junkyard available. I'm looking forward to playing with one someday. Move over LS...there is a new sheriff in town !
You are exactly right and once you get the engine you still have a bunch of cash to spend!
Andy
No actually Cleetus Godzilla is a second slower than his LS was! The Godzilla got a long ways to go!
th-cam.com/video/gEe-t_qq4y4/w-d-xo.html
351-C was a powerhouse, even the 2BL.
Not a Ford guy, never have been. Owned a few ford's tho (big 300 i6 fan). The 7.3 is the best thing fods done in 30 years+ in my opinion.
The LS is a struggling copy of the Y block design, there is no doubt. Chevy has always had to copy Ford to ever make book. It's happening still .
"Chevy has always had to copy Ford" - ROFLMFAO!!
I've always said that LS engines are a copy of a 1970s small block Ford. GM went away from the 5 bolt per cylinder and siamese intake/exhaust ports when they designed the LS. There are a number of other changes as well - as GM continued to fine tune their LS design the LS became more and more like a SBF. So any similarity of the Godzilla to an LS is just more confirmation of how good the 1970s small block Ford design was.
Love 351 Cleveland’s they are beautiful engines sound nice and overall great just another legendary ford engine
Thanks for watching! I love Clevelands also..
Andy
Nice! Looks like a modern Ford engine to me
The "Mini-Zilla" 6.8 would be nice to learn about if it's similar then Ford may be adding to its legendary engines. The greatest thing is if the 7.3 Godzilla came out in 1967 it would have been a "445 cid"
The Cleavland utilized canted valves and a poly angle combustion chamber. This is what made it unique
This right here, these are most distinct and effective features of the Cleveland. Features the Godzilla doesn't have.
Straight out of the factory with a cast iron block, steel crank, 4.5" bore centers, alloy canted valve big flow heads, as much as i love my LS & the current popularity of the Coyote there's no denying the Godzillas the next big thing for v8 enthusiasts.
Another great AW vid!
Keep it up Bro!😎
CLEVELAND, your going to have fun with it 445 cu in Baby should run good N/A 550-600 hp easy start
Yeah pretty much with little effort it should match MIXED UP BOSS and when we load it up with nitrous it should be in full party mode!
Andy
You're right, it's not an LS. It's an LT with the valve angles rolled three degrees.
Bingo
Had a hopped up Cleveland in my Torino GT. Got clocked going through a light at 142 mph to taking my friends mom to the hospital. Nothing like that sound of a Cleveland at full roar
Awesome. 351C was the first engine I rebuilt with my gramps when I was a kid.
Another great video, nice that Ford looked to the past to make a great engine for the future.
On one of the Cleetus videos they pull down mc flurry's 7.3 and dummy fit a few Ls parts just to see if they fit..Johnson lifters go straight in and rockers look so close it not funny..I don't care if they similar same or otherwise the 7.3 is a Hot Rodder's dream..Ford has done real good with this engine.
The Cleveland is in no way a copy of the big block Chevy head. Ford had a canted valve cylinder on the drawing board in 1962 during the period when Ford was designing their 255” Indy V8 based on the 260 Fairlane engine.
The initial head design for that Indy engine was a head based largely on a 260/289 production head. The difference was it used Y-block shaft mounted valve train to stabilize it at sustained high rpm’s.
The second phase was a pushrod actuated canted valve cylinder head called the 7 X 7 project (I think that was a reference to the valve angles) but that was stillborn because Ford decided to leap ahead and build the famous DOHC 255 Indy engine which was very successful.
The only real similarity is that the bbc popularized the individual stud mounted rocker arms which facilitated the canted valve angles.
As a matter of fact that ball/stud rocker arm deal came out of Pontiac engineering and they were supposed to have exclusive rights to it within GM for one year.
GM decided to reneg on that deal and allow the sbc and the new Pontiac engine to introduce them simultaneously.
That's pretty cool info right there! Thanks for sharing that
Andy
In 1962 Chevy was bolting a canted valve big block engine called the Mk II Mystery Motor into cars and driving them around test tracks. That's way beyond a drawing board.
@@corvettejohn4507 the “Mystery Motor” debuted at Daytona in February 1963.
Ford was already experimenting with a canted valve head.
It is common for the uninformed to accuse Ford of copying the bbc head.
I’m here to set the record straight. It’s nonsense period.
GM did popularize the ball stud rocker arm and pushrod oiling. This undeniable and Ford certainly followed suit for a while.
By the same token the Boss 429 was the first engine to use individual shaft mounted rocker arms on pedestals but you don’t hear guys going around saying virtually all modern pushrod engines (except Mopar hemis) utilize today including the LS are copied from the Boss.
@@michaelthompson1110 The Mystery Motor may have had it's public debut at the '63 Daytona 500 (actually a week before in the Daytona Continental in a '63 Vette), but Chevy had them running around GM test tracks in Detroit in November, December 1962.
At Daytona, Ford exercised it's option under the NASCAR rules and bought 2 Mystery Motors from Chevy which they immediately shipped back to Dearborn and disassembled.
@@corvettejohn4507 okay that doesn’t change a thing. Maybe you missed the part where I said Ford already had a canted valve head on the drawing board and maybe a bit more than that in 1962. It’s pretty unlikely they drew one up after only seeing the mystery motor in the last month of 1962.
Ford did of course have a canted valve engine which preceded the 351 Cleveland. Of course I’m speaking of the 385 series. That cylinder head was what came out of the 7 X 7 project and it really was done in such a way so as to put a “tunnel port” on the intake side just like their race engines without the pushrod tube in the airstream.
This was putting NASCAR technology in road cars as early as late 1967.
Notice though Ford never officially raced the 429 CJ engine. Their 429 was the Boss head.
If Ford were copying the Chevy race head how come they never raced it. You would think they’d have one out by 1964 if they were copying Chevy stuff.
I’m sure Ford was fully aware that Chevy had the canted valve stuff but they were in no hurry to race something like that maybe primarily the 427 TP could handle the Chevs without too much trouble.
You really did see many canted valve Fords until the Bud Moore Cleveland debuted in 1972.
Now if you want to look at an engine that laid down the template for what they’re racing even today it was that 351 Cleveland of Bud Moore’s in the early 70’s. That’s the one.
Awesome job. The one thing I would add is that the traditional firing order is not that of the Cleveland that was only used for it. The traditional firing order was; 1 5 4 2 6 3 7 8 for all of the regular small blocks and FEs. Actually although GM motors have a different number one cylinder and a different cylinder number designation, the actual progression is the same as a Chevy and other GM engines. The early Oldsmobile rocket engines had the same progression as the flathead and now the Godzilla. The traditional firing order differed from the flathead by switching the number 2 with number 8. The Cleveland took the traditional order and switched the 3&7 with the 5&4 and was the only one to have this. It also confused a lot of mechanics at the time. I did a study on this and, like you said, the sound is totally different, although it sounds like the Coyote Mustang in the video should have been driven by someone who knew how to drive it. They sound much better than “waga waga waga”.
The Godzilla uses the exact same lifter as an LS, and I promise, the LS/LT were studied, and their strong points considered, Ford did use the ssme bellhousing pattern, across the board on all V8's, Powerstroke (12+) included, and that IS something Chevy has done with RWD V8 truck engines for half a century.
So does the Hemi...
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage And was the Godzilla or Hemi designed before the LS ? Hint, the LS was in development in 1994........
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage One more thing, I just did a cam and lifters in a '15 6.4 and the lifter design is _very similar_ to the LS/LT lifter, but the Godzilla lifter _is exactly_ the same, that is what I meant, no disrepect, the owners were running 5W40 full syn oil, but going 7500 miles between changes, so take that in consideration, the truck had 83,500 miles.
Cletus got his in the 7.50s
McFlurry is running strong!
Andy
THE 1969 FIRECRACKER 400 AUTOMOBILE RACE!!!!
I remember when the Godzilla was still just a conversation and Ford talking about how they desired to take the 7.3 diesel platform and make it gas... never was there any discussion about basing it off a Cleveland engine.
Like everyone today, they take some parts of old technologies and incorporate them into new products because they know what works. Sort of like vortec engines using Ford's high swirl that began with the FE in their heads, generating much more torque than the old-school SBC. It's not that that GM based their LS on the Ford FE, they just used a principle that works in a modified port design to improve flow at rpm. Ford did the same thing with the Godzilla, merely taking a few principles that work and applying them to their engine.
In the end, the Godzilla is nothing like the Cleveland. Bore centers, head designs, port configurations, oiling systems, even rod ratios and bore to stroke have nothing in common. It's closer in design to the LS, but nowhere near being based upon either...
Okay Andy I will dive into answering the question in full as soon as I watch it again for a second time and work on my answer plus I will pass it on to a couple of them before with I reboot the video. I know that the stuff I have been working on and grew up with is not the most desirable stuff unless you are going for a restoration,the day of rest up the kids because of everyone wanting to race, cruise, restore, and just pound them in the ground to see what they can do to them.
Thanks John! Hope all is well your way..
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage I am slowly getting there and it is slow but working on stuff. Going to get together, as soon as possible can. TTYL
well all i can say is the stock godzillia will do more than the ls
With 445 cubic inches and a cylinder head with that much air flow potential it should do something. 😄
GM first V8 was 1918! Ford 1932 and Ford still copying GM designs! My LV3 powered S10 done wooped 3 godzillas so far and a dozen coyotes!
NASCAR wins GM 75, Ford 23! You Ford guys are so hard up for a win that you have to talk all kinds of shit. Really its embarrassing!
Outstanding, Andy!! I'm basically a Ford guy, but have built an LS engine for marine use. First and foremost, the LS head strongly reminds me of a windsor. The Y block design is borrowed from either an FE, modular or Chrysler. I would consider the Godzilla a best practices project vs. a modern day Cleveland.
You do these type of video's exceptionally well. I'd like to see you do more of them. Always a fan of Unity Motorsports Garage!!!
Exactly, that's what I said, the LS(Cleveland and Godzilla) is more of a Windsor derivative with hints of Small Block Buick(especially when comparing the tall port 350 heads to the Cathedral port LS.heads).
GM first V8 was 1918! Ford 1932 and Ford still copying GM designs! NASCAR wins GM 75, Ford 23! You Ford guys are so hard up for a win that you have to talk all kinds of shit. Really its embarrassing!
Cleveland & Bad A$$ 👊🏻
Now if Ford would bring back something simple for the F150. The third-gen Coyote is a dumpster fire, and I'm not touching an Ecoboost. A modern day OHV 5-5.8L V8 would be great.
Vehicles today have gotten overly complicated.. everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel and it drives up the cost of the vehicles.. give me a plain Jane F150 with manual windows and all of the other crap and I would be one happy camper
Andy
5.8 Godlizzerd !
I thought the Cleavland has the same firing order as all other Ford engines and the 351 Windsor was unique, until the roller 5.0’s came out. Then, once the mod motors came out, they all went with the Windsor firing order. I’m pretty sure of this, because I always wanted to have a cam custom ground for my 460 with the Windsor firing order.
Yeah the Cleveland and Windsor had the Same firing order..
Thanks for watching
Andy
5 litre engines all use the 351W firing order. It makes the engines run smoother and not break blocks.
@@ldnwholesale8552 The 5.0L did not have the Windsor firing order until they went to a roller cam. 1986, possibly 1985 in some rare cases, but 1986, roller cam, port fuel injection, and the Windsor firing order all came at the same time. The truck 5.0L had port fuel injection as early as '85, but they weren't roller cam until later.
@@anthonysgarage only the Mustang 302/5.0 had the 351 firing order. Trucks and Crown Vics still used the older firing order. Owned a 91 Criwn Vic cop car 5.0 roller cam had the old style firing order and a unimpressive 165hp. Yes I know most CV cop cars had the 351w vv carb motor some did come with fuel injected 302s speed density, bank fire. Civilian model CV 302 had 145 hp.
'80s Mustang 302's were called 302HO engines, and used the 351w firing order. All other 302's used the older 302 firing order. The 302HO was also used in boats, I had an '89 Seaswirl Spyder with the HO. Cruised 55mph all day long, pretty amazing for a boat of that time.
And I think the basic y-block design is the strongest design. They seem to live in Top Fuel
Exactly!
Andy
And the LS has more in common with a Ford Windsor than it does any Chevrolet engine ever produced. I've been saying it for years now since I learned how an LS goes together. Ford went on to build overhead cam engines. And Chevrolet went and perfected the Windsor. I'm not a Ford or Chevy guy. I'm an engine guy so I like it all. But in my opinion, until the LS came out. Ford hands down Made the best small block engines. No comparison.
I think the fairest way to explain the engine platforms is this
The short blocks of each era share their most important innovations. Things like crankshaft types , water jacket and deck surface style, mains and head securing. With the odd difference. It is the valve train and porting that make all the difference between brands.
Not into the modern stuff, but it is nice to see that there are still people on this Earth who know that not all engines are Chevy engines.
I live in a small rural Nebraska town. The local school district has, in the last couple of years been, with each purchase of a new school buss been replacing the fleet of diesel with gasoline engines. The engine is a detuned (down to 360 hp, lol) Godzilla. The drivers cant get overt the power these motors have (48 and 54 passenger buses) and so far trouble free.
There is some company making a timing cover with a oil pump incorporated in it to get rid of the chain drive and you can also mount a distributor in it
Yeah I saw that pretty slick setup!
Thanks for watching
Andy
The godzilla may not be an LS but clearly it was designed to compete with the LS if not directly then indirectly in the performance market. As much as I love the coyote the engine has a large footprint, on par with an big block chevy with tall valve covers. The godzilla allows a large displacement engine in a relatively small package similar to the LS but even more so.
Footprint sure, but the Coyote doesn't have BBC weight.
@@chrismathes3647 fs
Of course Brian Wolfe was one of the main developers of this engine and he's a big drag racer . This engine is the engine of the future and was intended to putting the LS on the trailer . But man what awesome truck engine it is mine has 80k on it big power and torque
Back in the late 80's the Chevy Nascar teams complained constantly to officials that the Ford head had too many advantages over the Small Block Chevy heads. Nascar let the GM teams and GM design a new head to compete with the Cleveland heads which ended up looking like the Ford head.
The fastest lap time in the 1980s in NASCAR was Bill Elliott in the Coors T-Bird he was clocked at over 212mph in qualifying for Talladega. The motor was a 351 V-8 Windsor. That record stood for at least 35 years. Like clockwork GM complained to the NASCAR officials and demanded restrictor plates and manifold restrictions. When GM pulled that BS the Ford's were still lapping Chevy's 3 times!
The y block and windsor firing orders were selected to smooth out the power pulses just like the LS. These firing orders create less stress and improved torsional rigidity. (better cylinder firing balance) There has always been talk about reduction of bearing stress and longevity but this still remains an issue no matter which firing order is being used. These engine run smoother and quieter in stock form. Hopping them up is where they really shine. Just look at the LS. I am not a cleveland fan but the LS block is basically, just a modern day cleveland. The blocks are very similar. All V8 engines, by all engine manufacturers, should have used the y block (4 - 7 swap) or LS (4 - 7 - 2 - 3 swap) firing order from the beginning. You can rev the shit out of these engine without blowing them to smithereens.
Y block shares firing order with the Fe big block and 385 series 429/460big block Fords too
How are Cleveland and LS blocks similar??
From the deep skirt cross bolted mains of the LS to the integrated timing cover of the Cleveland, they are nothing alike.
Unless being a 90* V8 means similar to you.
@@johnpeters9793 Just general comcept design not specific charateristics.
@danielmazurek7559
Then I guess all V8's are similar using that logic...
Your title! hahahaha
Kind of wondering why Ford didn't modernize and reintroduce the 460. It's a proven platform.
Cleetus McFarland put a 7.3 Godzilla in a Foxbody Mustang and he's running mid-7s in the quarter
He ran mid 6s with his LS! 😂😂😂
He ripped it out and put a Coyote in its place
Great information
Thanks John!
Andy
Ford actually standardized a bellhousing bolt pattern? Well whoda thunk!
4 head bolts per cylinder! Just like a slant 6. I was just working on my slant 6 and this clicked in my slow brain lol
Very informative thank you!❤
I'm glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching
Andy
my bear block motor fe heads uses 2.20 ls intake valves and they flow about the same
The ls shares the flat head firing order also.
I think the LS has the Windsor/Cleveland order but I may be wrong about that..
Andy
I don't know if you follow Cleetus McFarland, but their foxbody with a twin turbo Godzilla ran a 7.59@174mph just recently.
HELL YEAH BROTHER 😉
Cleetus LS Foxbody ran a mid 6!
He ripped the turbo Godzilla out and put a turbo Coyote in… and went 6s
Beginning in 2018, (correction 2015) the F150 Coyote uses the 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 firing order shared with the 351 and 302 HO. I believe it mitigates the double whammy of consecutive power strokes on the front main bearing. Conducive to truck durability.
The best firing order. That's why chevy boys run swap firing order cams in high horse powa engines.
The firing order on the f-150s was changed in 2015 and I believe it's 1-3-7-8-6-5-4-2.
@@johnflett2531 your right it was ‘15, however it is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
I thought the same thing about the cleveland when I seen a godzilla with the heads off it has a 2.16 intake valve stock I think the only bad thing about it is the cuts between the cylinders for coolant to pass
I fully agree with you on the cuts... I guess we will see how it handles enough nitrous to run 4's in the 1/8... 😆
Andy
The thing that's bad about the Godzilla and the Cleveland as well is the cost, a 9.5 Windsor or an LS can be build much more economically and can make all sorts of power, well over 1,000hp at the crank with boost, what more do you need other than the novelty of having something different?
The Cleveland is my favorite motor 1970 -71 casting only, close chambered 4v or 2v only.
4V open chambered are junk throw them away
And the real truth is a 351 Windsor with Cleveland heads. Is more reliable at anything over 6,000 RPM unless you install the moroso oil restrictor kit in the Cleveland block and run solid lifters.
Basically the Achilles heel of the Cleveland is poor oil routing in the block. I'm sure that new 7.3 Godzilla has fixed that problem. But on a marketing scale if Ford was to really sell a modern-day all aluminum block all aluminum headed 351 Cleveland and name it the 351 Cleveland they would corner of market
You can run a separate external hard line from the rear oil sending unit to the front one to equalize the oil pressure to the rear engine galley. And the restrictor kit. It helps a bunch.
Not trying to be a troll, but I’m sorry, YES IT IS an “LS” first time I saw it I thought to myself, looks like ford made a big block LS, and still think that. Of corse, there are those that think the LS is just Chevy copying ford…. And you can make that argument. I honestly think it’s all good, and my first thoughts of the “ls” was that Chevy finally incorparated some of the cross bolted FE stuff. To me it’s all good, the LS is awesome, ford built a bigger one, and did one better on the valve angles,… even awesomer . But sorry to all the ford fanatics, the 7.3 looks like it borrowed way more than it innovated from the LS. That’s not a bad thing or a dig in any way. Ford did what should have been done, let’s take what works, improve upon it where we can, and make it bigger cause bigger is always better.
Thanks for watching
I do believe there is a strong LS influence forsure
Andy
MAN!!! I love and prefer the sound of that old school 5.0. Music!!!
Very convincing, closer to a clevo than anything else. The canted valves, Y block design, and thermostat cross over, and it's sewer pipe style large intake ports did it for me.
7.3 valve cant is virtually nonexistent. These are among the least canted "canted valve" heads ever made.