I think Ryan Murphy does it purely for the aesthetics. He likes hot men, he likes horror. So he's always finding ways to put these two things together.
Why not just make up characters losely based off of real people like he did in the beginning of AHS then? I feel like that's more respectful than making fanfic.
I think if this show was fictional, it would've worked quite well as it delivered a pretty clear central thesis in spite of its flaws: there are no perfect victims. I thought it got that messaging across quite effectively more or less.
@@peppermint23yeah, I pretty much agree with that. I like the show, if I pretend the brothers aren’t real. The minute I start thinking that they exist, that they lived this, well a version of this, then had the most traumatic events of their lives portrayed in sometimes reprehensible ways without having any control over it for all to see then well, I don’t feel good about it. And I stand with the brothers, I believe them. But I think the last scene, the boat scene is the creators telling us their perspective, which is that they think the brothers planned it. And it makes me sad that they chose to end on that scene more than the fact that they made it because I feel like it’s damaging to the brothers as it could very well not be an accurate representation and yet it’s a negative one with which the viewer will now walk away. It would be a different story if that scene was placed elsewhere in the series. But because I feel that it’s the creators telling us they don’t believe the brothers version of it, at least not the self defense defense, then it makes me wonder what it is that they know that I don’t. After all, I’m sure they researched this case extensively, so when I think about that I just wonder if I’m being a sucker believing the brothers or something. Not that it really matters what I believe anyway, but still, I’d rather not believe a story that isn’t true.
there is something creepy and fetishistic about the constant homosexual undertones to Monsters. Ryan Murphy clearly fetishizes gay murderers. Its understandable in Dahmer, although I feel it is fetishized to an unnecessary level in that show as well, but it is now clearly a blatant pattern after Monsters. All of this coming from Ryan Murphy makes it all the more gross in my opinion, he gets off on it and he couldn't make it more obvious.
I don’t think two instances make a pattern nor do I think there are constant homosexual undertones on this season. I challenge you to walk me through each “homosexual undertone” of each of the 9 episodes. I mean, it should be fairly easy since it’s constant according to you, and you only have to mention one per episode, so really only 9. Go!
Interestingly, at first I thought that too (I even wondered whether there would be a reveal that they actually had a relationship, I didn't know the case at all before), but after maybe two episodes I kind of liked how close they were portrayed, even the way they touched each others faces etc. (though obviously not the shower scene). Because to me, it mostly didnt seem like some insinuation of a relationship or romantic love, it simply made me believe and feel how incredibly deep their connection and love (brotherly love!) For each other was, despite both of them fucking stuff up. So in the end, except for the few scenes where they were explicitly shown to be romantic with each other, I think the show profited from depicting the two like this. Although it was entirely unnecessary to even insinuate that there was romance, that was just for people to fetishize and speculate.
@@melinaalba63yeah, I agree with the part where you say it was nice to see them physically close. Idk how the real brothers are, but the physical closeness portrayal on the show sold it for me on how bonded they appeared to be which I thought was nice as well. It made me wish I had a sibling with whom I was deeply bonded. There were only 3 scenes that showed a possible sexual relationship between them, the shower scene, the dance scene at the party and the kiss scene at the hotel (to a lesser extent). And I personally can’t help but feel conflicted about their existence. Because on the one hand this allegation actually *was* a perspective thrown around at the time, therefore adding it is simply doing justice to the many perspectives that existed at the time. It’s there for the same reasons all the other ones were (the financial motive, the we feared for our lives explanation, the they premeditated this perspective, the we were abused claim, etc), just to showcase all the different viewpoints thrown around at time. So with that in mind, I don’t have a problem that they added it. But when I remember that these are real people and one of the most traumatic events of their lives is being revisited and thrown with that comes the allegation that they might be sexually involved? They who are actually possible victims of sexual abuse? I mean, that is just wrong. I can’t imagine being a victim of sexual abuse for years then have my story portrayed for all to see, without my control over it and being sexualized that way, or in any way really. I think if the brothers never existed and this show was complete fiction it would’ve been a good show. But being that these are real people then I struggle to see it in a completely good light or even a good reason for it existing in the first place. Perhaps it should’ve never been made.
I think he not only does this, but he’s very much aware there’s a market for it. Think about the overlaps between true crime watchers, people similar to ‘Ted Bundy wives’, fanfiction readers, and women who fetishize gay men through fanfiction As a queer man perhaps he avoids taking accountability but can also make a lot of money off these groups in the process
Some days I feel like Ryan Murphy needs jail time for his crimes in TV. Because what is the thought process behind this? I think another reason he pisses me off, is because he makes so much stuff sexual when they don't need to be. I just cant fathom whats going on in his head.
Dahmer was so historically inaccurate and politically charged that he’s defamed innocent people and disrespected the families and victims of Dahmer. He should be blacklisted.
I absolutely despised the way the final episode ended, with the brothers discussing and pre meditating the murder when its clearly something the Menendez brothers disagreed with in the trials multiple times, they never had an actual plan to kill their parents, and the fact that this is the last impression that we as viewers get is so harmful, this is the thought process that we are forced to walk away with... IMO the episode should've ended with the brothers being separated with the milli vanilli song playing that scene was so emotional i started BAWLING.
You know I cried too, it was really sad. Funny thing tho, while you’re bothered by the final scene on the boat, I’m bothered by the choice to use milli vanilli. Because as you may know, they were a fraud, right? So, while I know they were really successful exactly when the murders occurred, I feel like they were purposefully chosen with the intention to say that as far as the creators are concerned, the brothers (and subsequently their point of view , which in this case is a history of abuse) were a fraud, much like milli vanilli. And that heartbreaking moment, the one of them being separated after they apparently asked to be together only to then be transported at the same time to two different locations and get to find out right there and then on the bus (cuz apparently that’s exactly how they found out), was turned into mockery with that song choice. Like, don’t get me wrong, it got to me, I cried, I was so so sad for the brothers. But I also know that sometimes writers speak to us very directly via their song choices and I can’t help but feel like that milli vanilli song choice was so very deliberate. What do you think? Meanwhile the boat scene was just yet another perspective, you mention the brothers disagreed with it being premeditated on the trials, right? Well, that doesn’t mean they’re telling the truth, does it? The fact of the matter is that we don’t know much of anything, we can only speculate based on very little evidence or we can just pick a side, a perspective. But the fact of the matter is that we don’t know if the brothers premeditated this or not. If they feared for their lives or not. If they did it for money or not. If they were abused or not. We simply don’t know. We just choose to believe them… or not. So, if the creators want to end the show where the boys are plotting to kill their parents, well, then so be it. It’s not like we can say that didn’t happen. Tho I personally think that final scene was to demonstrate the creators perspective. I believe that they believe the brothers premeditated their parents murder and that is why they ended the show with the parents excited about their future while surrounded by juvenile sharks (I mean, can they be any more obvious?) with both of their children plotting to kill them on the other side of the boat. It was almost like an after credits scene in which the creators were saying, “well, we gave you all of the perspectives from the time when the murders occurred across 9 episodes, and now here is ours. And what can we do, right? They’re allowed to have their own take on it. I mean, if I’m right and that’s how the creators feel, then it makes me sad because I believe and support the brothers. But I can’t in good conscience say with certainty that I know what happened. Only the brothers know.
We don't even have proof of Gein taking more than one life! He's a bizarre, tragic figure, and I shudder to think what kind of Troma bullshit Murphy will weave out of that.
I actually had to pause the video and walk around at hearing 15:32. I can't believe he actually said that, ESPECIALLY knowing that the relationship between the brothers ISNT facts, like this feels like slander, but I know alot of people wont see it like that
The show took mostly viewpoints from multiple angles. The most outrageous part was the accusation of incest between the brothers, but the accusations from the brothers about the father isn't factually based either. They never reported it in therapy, but told the therapist they killed their parents. Deposition from the workers stated they never saw or heard any kinds of abuse the brothers were talking about, only family and friends who stood to make money from their release stated they were abused, but even if that's true, the premeditated murder doesn't have any evidence showing they were going to be killed by their parents... The Netflix series did a pretty good job capturing everything and the brother didn't take the stand in the 2nd trial because he was recorded talking about how he would manipulate the jury. I think your bias is coming through on this one
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 I watched the show with someone and they HATED that episode, and I do not use Twitter so I really don't know most people's perspective on this episode. I wasn't trying to make some kind of "unpopular opinion" comment or anything like that.
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 ? No…this original commenter didn’t do that at all-they just said they’re glad meeptop did as well. At no point did they “say it like” that’s not how other people felt about the episode. They are solely talking about themselves and the experience they had with the episode and disliking the rest of the series. Weird comment to leave guess tone/intent will always be difficult for some people to decipher online
@@tasonjoddyeah which is why you couldn’t decipher it. Ep 5 is so well liked that one might even be inclined to say it’s universally liked if they were a fan of hyperboles to make a point, which I’m not and yet here I am. I guess there is a first time for everything. 😄 Seriously tho, it’s no surprise this TH-camr liked ep 5 so this person going “oh I’m glad you liked it” comment is so unnecessary because it’s such an obvious thing for anyone to like that episode. I mean if they had added actual insights on the episode to discuss their shared appreciation for the episode taht would be a different story. But then just going, “oh I’m glad you liked it” and basically leave it at that implied there was a level of surprise which doesn’t make much sense since, as I said, this ep is universally liked. Now go on and send me a reply where you reiterate how you can’t decipher tone while trying to convince me that’s actually me who can’t. lol 😉
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133how about instead I send a reply you don’t get to dictate what is a “necessary comment” on a TH-cam video. The original commenter didn’t have to add any new insight to the conversation. They simply made a comment. Not sure what you’re so up in arms about seeing as how you did the exact same thing and proceeded to double down. But I do like when people double down when they’re wrong, it’s entertaining. Here this is for you: 🍪
The worst part about this show is that it's getting all the credit for why the brothers might go free despite all of Murphrot's obvious efforts to slander them. Previously, he compared them to Jeffrey Dahmer and accused them of having sex with eachother. The intention is paper thin.
This! Like the nerve to create a show out of this, and saying "we're presenting all the facts" then showing a relationship between the brothers when thats NEVER been confirmed as fact 😭. Making their lives actively worse just for a check
They shouldn't be released. They both killed their parents, fantasized about it and never spoke to their therapist about ever being abused, but were comfortable with discussing murdering their parents and threatening the therapist? It's insane that people are actually believing two manipulative murderers, but hey it's 2024
@Joshpower57 Wow! You're an idiot. They did not threaten Oziel, that man is a proven liar. I believe evidence and the experts. The evidence and experts say they were abused and killed out of fear, that's manslaughter. It was a huge miscarriage of justice that they got sentenced to firste degree murder. But hey, keep sympathizing for a rapist and his pedo wife.
@@Joshpower57When did they fantasize about it? And even if they did… MANY abused kids fantasize about unaliving their abusers. Erik told his therapist after months because he was extremely suicidal and hallucinating. That’s why. Have you only watched this show?
Cooper Koch really needs to be in more projects. The entire episode where Erik is speaking to his lawyer, which is shot in one long continuous take, really showcases his acting range.
I don't know if it shows his range but it definitely shows that he is able to leave a very lasting impact on many people with his acting. Would be interesting to see him in more stuff.
Thank you for this! I pretty much agree with everything you said, except pertaining to episode 5. Yes it was well done, but they still added things in that Erik never said. In fact they completely went against things he’s said. He’s had to explain over and over that he is not gay, but ep 5 had him explicitly say he fell in love with a boy and had sex with him. So I can’t stand even that one episode.
Yes, I wish more people would pick up on this! He's said that he understands that people in the gay community identify with him and he says there's nothing wrong with being gay, but Erik also says that he's categorically not gay
Erik did say that he did experiment with a boy multiple times in his life, but that he was not gay. He does say in the trial that he was always confused & didn’t understand “why it stopped hurting so much”. It’s heartbreaking all around. The actual lie is the relationship with his prison mate.
Yeah, well, it’s not a documentary, so… Also, according to the actor who played Erik, Lyle did see episode 5 and congratulated him saying he really did capture Erik. That’s not the same as saying that he confirmed the entire narrative of that episode but it’s certainly more positive to him, his brother, than it is to you. Unless that actor is lying.
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 Erik said towards the end of his abuse, his father penetrating him didn’t hurt like it used to, so it caused him to be extremely confused about his sexuality and whether he enjoyed it or not.
It's the most TV-show looking TV-show. There are a million ways you could present this story, but we get standard modern cinematography. Shallow depth of field with oversaturated everything. Blurgh. And everyone has a squeaky-clean wardrobe with perfect hair because they director can't stop playing with his dolls. It's disgusting to look at. But not in a good way.
@@velmad3894 A lot of styles. Faux documentary. Grindhouse. Lynchian. I'm not saying it should be an esoteric art piece, but you can have a 'dirty' or look to a project that can set it apart. I think the iPhone-Ad style used here is, pardon the pun, phoned in.
The guy who played Lyle(Nicholas Alexander Chavez) is a perfect candidate for the American Psycho remake, and it's a shame that we found out through a terrible show like Monsters, where he was meant to depict both a victim and perpetrator, which was unfortunately written by Ryan Murphy. I think your choice of editing really sold it to me, great video!
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133damn true crime girly stop acting like you're in a televised debate getting velocity edited and answer the question like a normal fucking person
Netflix putting out the monsters show weeks before a documentary about them is so incredibly greedy but I guess I should be glad that they are finally being allowed to tell their story even if it meant putting money into the pockets of the same people who exploited the hell out of their trauma? I just hope that the newfound hype leads to the brothers finally being released. They have been through enough already.
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 everything is done for profit I know that, but Netflix releasing a dramatized true crime show and a very real and well researched documentary just withing days of eachother feels a little too exploitative
As talented as Guadignino is, I think an American Psycho remake in itself is painfully redundant. The 2000 film by Harron is as close to perfect as filmmaking gets. Having a female director was brilliant and bold because of the themes and main character. I feel as if remaking it will reduce everything not only the film is about, but the novel by Ellis as well. It’s unnecessary and will profit off its iconicity, nothing else. I cannot imagine Patrick being played by anyone else. But I’ve been wrong before. I do hope they scrap it but you have convinced me to watch E5 of this series I’m glad there’s one gem in there because I was conflicted with watching this series having a feeling it would only make me angry knowing the case fairly well. Thank you, your Ryan Murphy critiques are always spot on
well movies don't feel real these days, all the actors have fake teeth, fake hair, stiff faces, fake lips, lashes and noses, no one looks like a person you'd see walking down the street anymore, it's such a shame really.
@@The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare that is definitely part of the issue, could not agree more. The original film felt like you were watching a bunch of asshole Wall Street men have actual interactions with each other and women they clearly did not give a shit about, even when it reached the “campy” (or baroque lul) level of dialogue that’s sole purpose is to be satirical. I don’t think writers are capable of pulling that off anymore. At least not the ones who get most of the work for big Hollywood films. They refuse to take risks. I know you were mostly talking about appearances but I think that’s also made more obvious by how utterly fake their dialogue sounds. Almost all movies I watch that were recently made I am so aware that what I’m viewing are actors on a soundstage or green screen.
Knowing that he's making a new show on Edward Gein, I really hope Ryan Murphy doesn't make it sexual for some reason. And I also hope he doesn't make Gein seem like some playboy cutie with masculine muscles, Gein was a very miserable and pitiful human being.
He absolutely will. There's already fanfiction 'essays' written about Gein's 'skinsuits' that suggest he tried making them because he wanted to be his mommy and was secretly trans from boyhood. You know he'll go all in on that nonsense.
oh god. they're going to imply that ed gein was trans, aren't they. they're going to make him buffalo bill, aren't they. jesus christ someone stop ryan murphy please. props to channel medusone in her real housewive's video for doing actual research about ed gein and dispelling some of the myths about him
Did he not have sexual feelings towards his mom tho? He was a very twisted person so I'm pretty sure there were some incestual things going on. Hence why he was trying to dress up in women's clothing and skin after his mom died
@@Jess-Rabbit Alot of Ed Geins case has just been made up, specifically regarding his mother. Nobody will truly know why he did the things he did, because so many of his confessions conflicted with each other. All we do know is that Augusta Gein was a gross sexist who isolated him from women and that after she died, Ed went insane. Why he wore the skin will probably never be solved, because he gives like 7 different conflicting reasons.
you nailed it man. It's all about money at the end of the day with these shows, and that's why I refuse to watch any of this new true crime stuff... exploiting real people with horrific stories for entertainment and money? That's not right at all.
It was really off putting to me that they chose to make us feel sympathetic to the Mendez’ SA struggles only to rip the rug out from under us at the very end. It plays into a very harmful stereotype that SA victims lie about their experience for attention or w/e. If they were going to go that route they should have at least kept the audience in the know the whole time and not make us get so emotionally involved in that part of the story.
Ryan Murphy is like those sick tumblr accounts I saw back in 2012 or 2013 where they romanticize Dharmer because he was catching, and make Ted Bundy look like an icon to admire because of how handsome he was. I swear if he does a Ted Bundy netflix special, he’s gonna be pushing it officially
I asked my mom showing her the Netflix poster, "What would you say this series is about?". She said "Something like Brokeback mountain?". I said "It's a true crime story, what would you say it's about?". She said "Looks like a crime of passion case." I said "It's a story about two brothers killing their parents after their father abuses them for most of their life". She looked again at the poster, her face slowly morphing into mild disgust and asked "And why is it like *that*?" Like, the sheer fact that the real Erik Menendez says on-screen "I can't remember a time my father wasn't f***ing me", and yet gets constantly presented as a vulnerable twink, not to mention the running with the incest theory (especially knowing the COCSA that happened between the brothers) made me feel physically dirty, not even exaggerating.
There’s someone in the comment section replying to like 90% of people and trying to defend the portrayal of the brothers and the blatant lies throughout and that to me represents exactly why the show should have never been made. This isn’t “just a show”. It’s a real story, with real people. They aren’t fictional characters. Erik and Lyle aren’t “fictional victims of SA”. They truly were abused. Say what you want about them murdering their parents, but they have a right to have a say in how their SA is portrayed for the public. Especially when one brother is blatantly portrayed as a closeted gay man (he’s denied this COUNTLESS times) and both are portrayed as incestuous.
Hey, i like homoerotic thrillers as much as the next guy... but i'd really prefer if Murphy stuck to pure fiction.... he could do more, without disrespecting real human beings. But it wouldn't be as popular... cause, you know, people are stalkers...
I've binge watched the entire series with my gf and I can confirm our necks are absolutely broken from all the tonal whiplash we went through. It was actually stunning how awful this show was, how many weird jokes and campy montages they were able to shove in this excuse of a "documentary". We've had fun watching it, but for all the wrong reasons. It felt like I was watching a hilarious dark comedy that touches its subject so poorly it made it feel almost "trivial", just to remember this was supposed to be based on REAL people and their very REAL experience and trauma. I thought Dahmer was bad, but after watching the weird Menendez fanfiction I grew to apprecittate the consistent tone of Dahmer (which I'm glad you mentioned in the video). I just can't take Monsters seriously because of how we cut from sappy badly-to-mediocre acted monologues about stuff we already know to some goofy montage where the creators play with Menendez brothers like Ken dolls in a comedy movie. Don't even get me started on how they tried to be all artsy and deep with the shitty uncut 40 minute episode of Erik just talking about WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW. It was lazy, cheap, boring and the fact that it is the highest rated episode on imdb (it's wild that any of these episodes have a rating above 4) is honestly wild. I hate that Lyle was basically Patrick Bateman, I hate that Erik came off as a 14yo girl's idea of a sad little submissive boy, I hate that their dad was honestly a hilarious and charismatic character even during the darker moments because it made me feel like I was not supposed to care. It's sad, because now when I actually want to get into the case of Lyle and Erik, it's stained by a silly little cutaway gag of them having facial reconstruction surgery and fleeing the country. It's not just predatory like Dahmer, it's straight up just people playing around with tragedy and trauma of real ass people trying to come off as a genuine attempt to do... Something? The only way they may have succeded at doing what they wanted is if their goal was to make a show worse than Dahmer in every single way.
I,m so glad I watched the documentary first. Because when I started the series, I couldn't go past 10 minutes. I shut that shit down with zero remorse! I was DISGUSTED. The Netflix documentary really focus on their testimony and it was so hard to watch I had to take several pause.
Why watch garbage trash "critically" when you could have quit watching it a lot sooner tho? Like what that one person who responded to your comment did
Ryan Murphy is trash, he's a vulture in the worst way at this point, exploiting actual tragedies involving people that are still alive constantly and people really need to wake up and stop supporting it. He's absolutely gross. And yes, it's about him as a person along with the writers and others involved, they chose to take part in this exploitation for a check, that's disgusting and should be called out. Making popular entertainment is not an excuse for doing real harm to real people that are still alive to live with the consequences and trauma "entertainment" like this causes them. Ryan Murphy and everyone else in the cast and crew, get to go home to their money off making fan fiction out of real trauma while the actual humans involved have to live with the damage.
I really dont care for Murphy. There's so many great artists in our queer community. The fact that he is the one that deals directly with themes of homosexuality (and, in general the othering of queer people at large) that most people are familiar with, really isn't great for us. It's like he plays in to every suffocating stereotype of what a gay man is like. And honestly, you refering to some of his writting as "tasteless" couldn't be a better characterisation of his writing.
I feel like "tasteless" understates just how bad his writing really is. I'm not sure what word would adequately convey the badness of it all better, though.
I need to say, the movie Radio Flyer (starring a toddler Elijah wood dealing with an abusive stepfather who SPOILERS eventually kills his brother) reminds me a lot of this case. In the film the kids think up of this crazy idea to get away from the dad, that to them makes sense considering the trauma, their age, and the mother ignoring the problem. The Menendez brothers were only 18 and 21 at the time, brain hasn’t even fully developed and had been messed with since they were kids. My guess is they really believed using the shotguns were a good way to protect themselves at the time.
วันที่ผ่านมา +11
i hate ryan murphy. making money out of victims. disgusting. also yeah, i loved cooper koch's acting but i love him too, because he's constantly advocating for the brothers.
If the show was just The Hurt Man and they branded it as a short film or a special episode between seasons I think it would have literally been better than what we got as a whole
while i understand the different perspectives they were trying to portray in this series, it wasn’t the wisest choice. people don’t do research on these topics for themselves, they just take what they’re presented and run with it, leaving room for tons of misinformation and just straight false claims to circulate around the internet.
It’s a valid narrative choice, but it just didn’t work because it was so poorly done. Sometimes I wasn’t even sure whose perspective I was supposed to be watching. And don’t even get me started on the choice to focus so heavily on the perspectives of Jerome Oziel and Dominick Dunne, two absolute frauds and liars, over the perspective of Robert Rand, a journalist who has been communicating with the brothers since before they were even suspects and is still in contact with and advocating for them 35 years later. It’s just utterly disgusting and in bad faith. Chloe Sevigny who played the mother even said she used Dominick Dunne’s writing as a source and Nicholas Chavez who played Lyle made reference to a comment that was proven to be a fabrication as if it was fact. The lack of legitimate, unbiased research that went into this series is just a complete embarrassment and disservice to the story.
Damn man, God bless you! I mean it with great sincerity that you are truly, officially the absolute best TH-camr out there. Very briefly: I suffer(d) from severe anxiety/panic, OCD and some depression, but honestly, watching your videos every time they come out seems to outright cure me somehow. You offer brilliant analysis, a human touch that many can relate to, a thorough and fair critique of the movies or series being discussed, humor and plenty to be entertained by and to think about. It’s a godsend. Can I please implore you to make like A LOT more videos? There are many other movie/TV TH-camrs out there, and a great number of them are fabulous, but damn, you take the cake! Please keep up the amazing work and I hope and pray to see a lot more!
Also havent seen anyone talking about it but this thing netflix is doing of launching the series and them the documentary is so gross to me, like the money is going to them by both sides, they're creating the problem with a "problematic view" and sensacionalizing it them showing the documentary as "the whole truth" like its the same company, they could put the truth from the documentary in the series, put they purposely make this "mistakes" or "fanfictions" to attract audiences to the documentary
Ryan Murphy has made it VERY clear since the show’s release that he has absolutely no interests in who the Menendez family was and that he was trying to capture a “moment in history”, but he did such a horrible job of it and the show fails completely even as a piece of entertainment. It felt like a cartoon. The research was also laughable. They clearly used Dominick Dunne’s writing as a primary source, even though Dunne was a prosecution shill and has been exposed as paying people to make shit up to make the brothers look bad. Marti Shelton admitted in 2004 that Dunne paid her $1,000 to lie and say she heard Lyle say he’d “snowed the jury”. She admitted in 2004 she’d never heard him say that. He also paid people to lie and say he saw the brothers high five after their testimonies, which conveniently was never captured on camera… because it never happened. It’s not surprising he produced such a meanspirited, bad faith adaptation considering he used a mean spirited, bad faith book as his source. It’s just an embarrassment for everyone involved. The Menendez brothers deserved better. Shows like this just further the false narrative that there was no evidence they were abused when in reality it’s the exact opposite and the prosecution, judge and media made it their mission to bury the abuse evidence. They snowed the media. I also find it really interesting that you point out the show portrays Dominick Dunne very unfavourably, but they used his writing as a primary source. It’s genuinely so bizarre and just furthers the idea that this show had no idea what it was trying to say.
Thank you. I couldn’t get past the first 2 1/2 episodes of the Dahmer season My wonderful colleague is a sweet natured and deeply kind person who absolutely LOVES true crime. She’s (relatively) sheltered, outside of experiencing racism as a woman of colour in Australia, and a baby boomer. I think she likes true crime in the fairly typical ‘scare the suburbanites’ 6pm ‘if it bleeds, it leads’ kind of way When we talk about these things, I try and keep it either vague and broadly ‘that’s terrible ‘, particularly about unfolding crime. But if it’s something I think is needlessly sensationalised and victimising, eg “news” stories on “youth ‘African’ crime gangs” in Melbourne - which is straight up racist sensationalism based on recycled fears of migrants - I generally say something about the reality of crime statistics and police racism. She’s a lovely person and generally receptive to these conversations, at least in a polite way But she still recommended me both seasons of this show, and thinks it’s well done when it’s just stoking conservative fears with a shallow empathic gloss over the top to absolve audience guilt over enjoying this muck. It’s heartbreaking that it fools even genuinely kind people who would otherwise be open to more compassionate systematic appraisals
Anyone truly interested in true crime KNOWS netflix fictionalisations are inaccurate, misleading, unhelpful. I would argue that true crime should always remain with documentaries to avoid this dramatic unauthentic element - it's hurtful to victims living and does an injustice to those dead by not being as 💯 truthful as possible.
This show had SO much potential to be good. Great cast, great production values, but I just KNEW Ryan Murphy would find a way to fuck it up. I thought all the actors did a good job, but the cast was wasted with the script. Having Javier Bardem, someone who is known for playing psychopaths, but instead Jose is reduced to mostly just a "tough, strict" but loving dad without really going into how brutal he was. I'm not just talking about his treatment towards his children, but his treatment towards adults, colleagues, everyone that knew him spoke of what a horrible person he was. Yet, we don't really see any of that. Kitty is mostly just a neurotic, alcoholic enabler, and we see her being "driven to drink" by her "horrible" kids, but we don't get to see how abusive and neglectful she was towards her kids. And the brothers, ESPECIALLY Lyle are just these caricatures. Showing Lyle do drugs? Where was the evidence of that? Being obsessed with Milli Vanilli? Where did that come from? lol When it was announced the show would have a Rashomon effect, I was already reluctant. However, the show made it 10x worse. The main problem with it using the Rashomon effect, was that it wasn't really the Rashomon effect at all. Take the first episode for example. One could argue "well this is Oziel's perspective", but it's not presented to the audience as being Oziel's POV. Had the episode ended with Oziel in court saying "that's what they told me happened", then okay. But to someone who's never researched the case, without knowing this is Oziel's POV, the audience will just see the events of this episode as "the truth" since there's no narrator. They sort of do this in the beginning of episode 2 when they show the police incompetence and show the brothers' hasty coverup of the crime and trying to incriminate themselves. However, this gets thrown out the window quickly when the start the brothers' spending spree lol. Meanwhile, episodes 4 and 5 which focus on the brothers recounting the events, at this point, since we just saw the brothers in the last 3 episodes being SO unlikeable and untrustworthy, so by the time we're seeing the brothers's POV and telling this story to their attorneys, it's just that, "a story". This is later amplified during the later episodes when they're in court, and Lyle's "practicing" his testimony and the attorneys are coaching him. One could argue that the shower scene Dominick Dunne talks about in episode 7 is just Dunne's POV and we can see him as an unreliable narrator, but what about the other scenes from the earlier episodes that imply incest or Erik being gay where Dunne's not narrating? Or the later episodes where the brothers are continuing to be obnoxious shitstains with no narrator presenting this? This isn't the Rashomon effect at all. That's not even counting the obvious inaccuracies and inconsistencies presented in the show. The show puts tons of emphasis on Billionaire Boys Club (something that was largely discredited during the first trial, and not brought up at all in the second trial, iirc), the screenplay (which wasn't admitted in evidence in either trial), Erik "messing up" on the stand (which did not happen), and the Norma tapes (which still get brought up in the second trial scenes, but weren't allowed in the trial in real life since Lyle didn't testify). The show shows Leslie being a "crazy" attorney but doesn't show the bigotry and homophobia and misconduct from the prosecution (Lester Kuriyama's also nonexistent for some reason). We don't see many prosecution witnesses being caught lying. We don't see the corroborating evidence the defense brought forward at trial (and if we do, they're just seen as liars that Lyle paid). The show emphasizes the spending spree, but doesn't show the brothers lacking direction in life after the killings and not knowing what to do with the money. We see the crime scene brutally depicted from the prosecution's POV, but we don't see it from the brother's POV. The second trial scenes are insanely inaccurate, as we see prosecutor David Conn presented as some slick, noble prosecutor seeking justice for Mr. and Mrs. Perfect while we don't see him relentlessly mocking Erik on the stand, calling his abuse "the silliest story ever told in a courtroom" and saying "Lyle has black, dead eyes that deserve to be dead". We see Erik's throat injury consistent with CSA that he obtained at just seven years old, instead happening at 18 with him tripping on a popsicle (and it's supposed to be comedic?!). Aside from the few vulnerable moments we see from the brothers, these are FAR outweighed by the negative portrayals of them. We have VERY few moments where we see Lyle looking out for Erik as an older brother and wanting to protect him. We don't see the abuse depicted AT ALL (obviously I don't want them to include CSA scenes, but they could show it like L&O did, nothing graphic). We don't see the brothers as PEOPLE, even before the crime (even though he did this with Jeffrey fucking Dahmer the previous season, he had no problem humanizing him). Instead, the brothers are reduced to these caricatures, even worse than the depictions from the 90s made-for-tv movies. One could say they "didn't do their research", but I believe they DID do their research (knowing small, minor details such as Kitty lifting Christmas trees or Erik and Leslie playing hangmen), but still intentionally made an inaccurate portrayal. It's one thing to use "creative license" on some things, but to make a show about real people 90% fictional is just disgusting. If he wanted to make a fictional show about creepy, incesty brothers who kill for money, he could've changed their names and made it fiction. I don't really get what Murphy's objective was with the show. I wouldn't be surprised if he's an abuser himself.
@@janicemoriarty2578 oh ok. I’ve never seen this actor before so lm curious if it’s an exaggeration or if he’s really known for playing several psychopaths. Side note- it’s so weird to me because the dud does NOT look good in this show in my opinion but I’ve seen in in interviews and such and omg he’s actually quite attractive. It’s crazy how actors appear to completely change even their looks when they’re playing characters!
I forced myself to watch the first episode of "Dahmer," asked myself, "Why?," and went no further. I asked similar questions about the "Monsters: Menendez" miniseries, but was fascinated by the weird tonal choices, aimed somewhere between Todd Haynes, telenovela and camp. As I kept watching, it became clearer to me that it was a "Rashomon" experiment, mirroring what was going on in Los Angeles (where I lived and worked in the entertainment biz) at the time. Everybody had their own theories, and every participant had their own story. Which parts of which accounts do you believe? The series is about acting, about performance -- public and private (as in the central, episode-long, single-take performance of Erik "confessing" to Leslie Abramson). We see crucial events repeated from various points of view, and are forced to ask who's telling the truth (or who believes that what they're saying is true), who's manipulating whom (the cops, the lawyers, the juries, the Netflix subscribers), and who's justifying their actions by blaming somebody else for them. You can believe the brothers that they were molested and thought their parents were out to kill them and still ask if what they did in the way they did it (none of which is contested) was morally or legally acceptable -- even if, on some level, it was understandable. Different juries reached different conclusions about the Menendez brothers' culpability. Different viewers of this miniseries will, too. Leslie Abramson and Dominick Dunne were grandiose, ambitious, attention-seeking public performers -- both vilified and glorified by the press and public -- and what they say about each other in the series (whether they said it as scripted or not) simply gives voice to what many who followed the case were saying at the time. All of them may be true or untrue, or maybe a single definitive "truth" is impossible to determine. "Monsters" doesn't give you just one view of either of them -- or of the brothers. As you demonstrate here, you're free to create your own impression from the material available to you on the screen. It ends, as I recall, by recapitulating the scene on the boat from an alternate point of view. Do you think that one version is "real" and the other untrue? Do you think you can know enough to definitively answer that question? I saw echoes of "Zodiac" here -- about the appeal and frustration of the "true crime" illusion in general, and how we want to know things for certain that we will never know but can only speculate about...
Good comment. So what’s your view? I believe the very last scene, the boat scene, is the creators perspective. I mean, they literally had the parents surrounded by juvenile sharks (very on the nose) talking about their future with excitement while the brothers were plotting their murder on the other side of the boat. Making this scene and making it the last scene feels to me like a post credit scene where they were like, well, we have you all perspectives at the time and this is ours. What do you think? And as for my perspective, I stand with the brothers, I believe them. And I also have zero moral issues with a victim of abuse killing their abuser in cold blood. I’ll never lose any sleep over that. Meanwhile the brothers will have to live with the abuse and the fact that they killed their parents and that they’ll likely never leave prison for it. There is no winning here.
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 My view is that this is a "true crime" piece about how we can never know what's "true." We weren't there -- this is "only a movie" -- and it doesn't have a happy or definitive ending. Because it's about life, an ongoing narrative that doesn't adhere to a coherent three-act structure. (Again, like "Zodiac.") The obsession with "true crime" is narcissistic and probably unhealthy, but it's human nature to want to imagine "the answers" -- even when we aren't in any position to know them.
@@bacarandii no, I meant what’s your perspective in terms of the brothers. I said mine is that I believe them and that it appears to me that the creators of the shows perspective is that they premeditated it. So what’s yours? And while we are at it, do you think killing your own abuser is justifiable morally and/or legally? And why? And why do you think the obsession with true crime is narcissistic?
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 I don't think there's any question that they're sociopaths -- nature or nurture, I have no way of knowing. But since they admit committing the premeditated murders (they carefully planned it all in advance), they are guilty. There's no legal defense because the unarmed parents were surprised while watching TV. The brothers could have gone to the police, could have left home and gotten a restraining order against the parents, but they chose to kill them instead. What they did might be understandable, but it's still morally and legally wrong. There's no way around that.
I really like your breakdowns, & the way you went through this series was the best review I’ve seen on it. Wish there was a poll to submit recommendations for you to rip through. Otherwise, Just a happy supporter. Cheers 👏🏻
I also felt conflicted over whether Dahmer should have existed and it looks like that's the same question posed by this show so you saved me the time of watching it.. Subscribed because of this video. Please don't quit TH-cam.
I said I wouldn’t watch anything else by Ryan Murphy after Dahmer and the way he didn’t care about the feelings of the victims’ families, and I’m sticking to it. He’s exploitative, period.
As much as ryan murphy and everybody that likes this serie says he recounted the story from every prospective he ABSOLUTELY DID NOT we have all the time in the world to show the opinion of biased magazine writers with incest and lyle being abusive to kids and everyone arond him and eric being in gay sexual relationships and the parents rekindling their relationship (all false things by the way) but most of the brothers recountings are only talk and no show, we don't get flashbacks of the terrible abuse , expecially the mother side towars lyle, and the one we get are acted by adults and humoros like eric slipping with a popicle in his mouth acted by a 27yo chooper intead of a 7yo eric being orally raped (not that i want to see it but you get it)or the mother tring to poison them we don't see the prosecution say that man can't be raped because they don't have the parts, we dont see the family testify for the brothers ecc, was it not cinematic enough ? There were a million recounted abuse instances they could have shown without being sexual but they chose not to, we have a clear narrative actually , seeing as much naked young man rubbing on each other and being psychos for fun with a little bit of sob fake story in the middle, the fact that he was able to muster a little bit of grace for dahmer but not the menendez and he sandwiched their story between a cannibal serial killer and a man that made interior decoration out of dead bodies is insane.
See, exploitation issues aside (which was a huge issue for sure), I had a totally different reaction to the tonal shifts and actually interpreted the show as taking a VERY clear stance with a central thesis: there are no "perfect victims." This point is hammered home quite strongly not only through the amazing episode five, but also through our authorial stand-in, Leslie, who time and time again desperately tries to educate people this very topic in spite of so many characters having such black and white stances on the brothers. The fact that the brothers acted outlandishly and cartoonishly at times, to me, was less of a "oh see, they could've been those monsters indeed!" coin flip kind of moment (though on the surface, it did seem those scenes were presenting it that way), and more of a reminder that we are complicated, multifaceted people. Yes, maybe Lyle DID throw a tantrum over a car, but does that make him any less of a victim? No. Yes, maybe they DID act foolishly and impulsively and violently, but does that mean they were sociopaths? Also, no. I could, of course, be giving it more credit than it's due, but by the end I felt so much empathy with and sympathy for the brothers that it just cemented for me the writers did side with them and ultimately want us to (not for murdering their parents, per se, but for suffering at their hands and being misunderstood, imperfect victims who reacted to abuse in an imperfect way). Now, whether or not this succeeded overall is totally up for debate of course, and I can understand why it didn't work for a lot of people too. The show is absolutely imperfect and not without its flaws. I appreciate your analysis either way and you absolutely make a lot of excellent points that I agree with! I think if this show had been purely fictional it would've worked quite well.
"Eric, they're gonna make a fking movie about us. who's gonna play us?" that would have pulled me right out of it, immediately. It seems smug. I hate it.
Look, I do think adaptations from real life can benefit from more comedy. A great example is "The Dropout", which I think it can be considered as a "dramedy" of sorts. The thing is, the writers in that show knew what aspects of the story could be dealt in a comical manner (all the Silicon Valley shenanigans, for instance) and what aspects should be taken seriously (for example, the experiences of the people who worked at Theranos). The result it's a very effective show that highlights the crimes of Holmes and Theranos while putting a mirror to the viewer so we can see what type of behavior can cause the conditions for something like Theranos to happen. Sadly, I don't think Murphy has been able to accomplish such thing but more importantly I don't think he cares.
I appreciate the acknowledgement of the videos monetary attribution and feeling guilty about promoting shows like these, however a perspective I'd like to bring attention to is one I share. I have not watched The Menendez Brothers show nor the Dahmer show, nor do I have any intention of doing so based on my beliefs about giving monetary gain to people whom I think are exploiting very real and traumatic events. Therefore videos like these made by educated people about these kinds of shows are beneficiary to people like me who want to educate others about how harmful media that fictionalizes real events without having to financially endorse the shows. Of course I can acknowledge that I can't just copy what people say, so it's also important for me (and people who also don't want to watch the shows) to watch other videos contributing other perspectives to gain more knowledge and shape my own perspective.
@@user-hc2tu7ul7j I have wondered if he regretted it later. I mean it was making fun of a real crime at the time. But bless his heart I give Ben Stiller a pass for being immature at the time. Cable Guy still one of my fave movies.
The attempt to inject some campiness into this show was just offputting. Rying murping’s artistic peak was ahs freakshow and he knows it but he just cant let the past go… actually now that im thinking about it the cinematographer was the one carrying the ahs vision before it went to shit
cainvarner recently made an interesting video about the decline in Murphy's work inre: cinematic quality, specifically AHS, if you're especially interested in that kind of stuff
12:44 yes!! If Ryan started the series from the reporter perspective then SHIFT and REMAIN in a better perspective, he could accomplish what he thinks he did. But he had the perspectives flip flop and validates all the sides. Nope. That doesn’t work for a situation like this that happened in real life.
I'm so sad that Ryan Murphy fell off. I'm still a big fan of the first season of Feud (Bette & Joan) and I feel like he hasn't made anything good after that
2:33 Not only Copper Koch was good but also Nicholas he had even harder thing to do because he was already written as asshole and not as Lyle really was and i think he also did great job
i am so glad i’m not the only one who was reminded of american psycho while watching monsters it is so incredibly uncomfortable it just shows how much ryan murphy actually cares about this story
I honestly think that Ryan Murphy just picks a script or screenplay (idk how any of this shit works) that someone else made and adds his own bull to it and maybe occasionally leaves sum creative control to another person and that’s how we get the good parts like the hurt man ep
I think its point was to tell the story from everyones pov. Including the parents, the public, friends, the brothers, leslie, the cops, the press. Its very confusing and winds up saying nothing.
It made me aware that the Hale Brothers on Venture Bros we're partially inspired by the menendez brothers and not just the Hardy Boys so that's something i guess?
I’m by no means a true crime person, however when shows like this come out I always go back to Mindhunter, my favorite true crime show that I feel is actually handled well I would love to see a video on that if you’ve ever looked into it I think it would satisfy the things you disliked (and rightfully so) with this and Dahmer
Thanks for watching this monstrosity cause I'm so NOT gonna support another Netflix "true" crime. That elevator scene feels so WTF, like is the audience supposed to be on the side of the person who claims that someone's trauma of losing a daughter is all their personality boils down to. That just disgustingly dehumanizing. Yes, it is good to acknowledge trauma, but sensationalizing it is just as bad as ignorance, if not worse.
I think this guy didnt get the show the point of the show was to show all the perspectives of what happened because its an extremely complex situation and when shit flip flops it asks the viewer to think and thats why it takes so long to get through
This is why I refuse to watch this mini-series. To portray them as being in a sexual, incestuous relationship? How disgusting, after you've been raped by your father your entire life! I refuse to watch that play out in front of me after I know what those boys really went through.
at this point u just gotta wonder why someone is giving this dude turning his personal kinky true crime fanfiction into tv shows the money and means to actually turn it into tv shows.
It's not trying "to do" anything, it is just a powerful man in the streaming business bringing his own fetishy fanfiction to life because he can. Wish he would stick to 100% fictional characters, though, because what he is doing with real people and their life stories is pretty disgusting and darn irresponsible.
Had no interest in watching this show and continue to have no interest lol Important discussion to have, tho. I think we all generally recognize that fictionalized stories about real events can significantly shift our perspective of reality and frankly already have for centuries at this point (see HH Holmes as a great example). Is there a perfect way to retell the past visually if you want to be accurate to as many perspectives as possible? I think well-researched documentaries can come close (though no one is perfect). So a good question to ask is: why did the creators of this story and many others create a sensationalized, cinematic retelling instead of a documentary? Entertainment for the hope of profit. Asking why something was made is a great tool for critical thinking, and a very quick way to depress yourself realizing how many popular things just exist to consume consumers.
I consider it his a work of fiction. I think Ryan Murphy wants to direct kinky porn but is too afraid to admit it so it ends up in our regular tv. Dude it’s okay just make porn 😭 free the brothers 💖
![โอ้เธอช่าง... - บี้เดอะสกา ft. ต๋อง เทวัญ (Prod. by ป๋าเพชร) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zbWhiLFmVL0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 85 | คู่เอก "ยอดเหล็กเพชร vs ผึ้งหลวง"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Qq_19bnnxEo/mqdefault.jpg)
I think Ryan Murphy does it purely for the aesthetics. He likes hot men, he likes horror. So he's always finding ways to put these two things together.
Yeah, I agree. He REALLY has a type as well. So many of the actors he casts for the “hot” roles look the same. This show is no different
Why not just make up characters losely based off of real people like he did in the beginning of AHS then? I feel like that's more respectful than making fanfic.
Definitely, but he should do that with fictional characters and not real life tragedies
I could already see him adapt Killing Stalking at some point... which would be truly horrofing
@@asinussumOh no no no no, don't give him ideas 🤢
It's just exploitation. Plain and simple.
I think if this show was fictional, it would've worked quite well as it delivered a pretty clear central thesis in spite of its flaws: there are no perfect victims. I thought it got that messaging across quite effectively more or less.
@@peppermint23yeah, I pretty much agree with that. I like the show, if I pretend the brothers aren’t real. The minute I start thinking that they exist, that they lived this, well a version of this, then had the most traumatic events of their lives portrayed in sometimes reprehensible ways without having any control over it for all to see then well, I don’t feel good about it.
And I stand with the brothers, I believe them. But I think the last scene, the boat scene is the creators telling us their perspective, which is that they think the brothers planned it. And it makes me sad that they chose to end on that scene more than the fact that they made it because I feel like it’s damaging to the brothers as it could very well not be an accurate representation and yet it’s a negative one with which the viewer will now walk away. It would be a different story if that scene was placed elsewhere in the series. But because I feel that it’s the creators telling us they don’t believe the brothers version of it, at least not the self defense defense, then it makes me wonder what it is that they know that I don’t. After all, I’m sure they researched this case extensively, so when I think about that I just wonder if I’m being a sucker believing the brothers or something. Not that it really matters what I believe anyway, but still, I’d rather not believe a story that isn’t true.
there is something creepy and fetishistic about the constant homosexual undertones to Monsters. Ryan Murphy clearly fetishizes gay murderers. Its understandable in Dahmer, although I feel it is fetishized to an unnecessary level in that show as well, but it is now clearly a blatant pattern after Monsters. All of this coming from Ryan Murphy makes it all the more gross in my opinion, he gets off on it and he couldn't make it more obvious.
Yup he did the same thing in American Crime Story season 2. Although, that performances of Cunanin was great.
I don’t think two instances make a pattern nor do I think there are constant homosexual undertones on this season.
I challenge you to walk me through each “homosexual undertone” of each of the 9 episodes. I mean, it should be fairly easy since it’s constant according to you, and you only have to mention one per episode, so really only 9. Go!
Interestingly, at first I thought that too (I even wondered whether there would be a reveal that they actually had a relationship, I didn't know the case at all before), but after maybe two episodes I kind of liked how close they were portrayed, even the way they touched each others faces etc. (though obviously not the shower scene). Because to me, it mostly didnt seem like some insinuation of a relationship or romantic love, it simply made me believe and feel how incredibly deep their connection and love (brotherly love!) For each other was, despite both of them fucking stuff up.
So in the end, except for the few scenes where they were explicitly shown to be romantic with each other, I think the show profited from depicting the two like this.
Although it was entirely unnecessary to even insinuate that there was romance, that was just for people to fetishize and speculate.
@@melinaalba63yeah, I agree with the part where you say it was nice to see them physically close. Idk how the real brothers are, but the physical closeness portrayal on the show sold it for me on how bonded they appeared to be which I thought was nice as well. It made me wish I had a sibling with whom I was deeply bonded.
There were only 3 scenes that showed a possible sexual relationship between them, the shower scene, the dance scene at the party and the kiss scene at the hotel (to a lesser extent). And I personally can’t help but feel conflicted about their existence. Because on the one hand this allegation actually *was* a perspective thrown around at the time, therefore adding it is simply doing justice to the many perspectives that existed at the time. It’s there for the same reasons all the other ones were (the financial motive, the we feared for our lives explanation, the they premeditated this perspective, the we were abused claim, etc), just to showcase all the different viewpoints thrown around at time. So with that in mind, I don’t have a problem that they added it. But when I remember that these are real people and one of the most traumatic events of their lives is being revisited and thrown with that comes the allegation that they might be sexually involved? They who are actually possible victims of sexual abuse? I mean, that is just wrong. I can’t imagine being a victim of sexual abuse for years then have my story portrayed for all to see, without my control over it and being sexualized that way, or in any way really.
I think if the brothers never existed and this show was complete fiction it would’ve been a good show. But being that these are real people then I struggle to see it in a completely good light or even a good reason for it existing in the first place. Perhaps it should’ve never been made.
I think he not only does this, but he’s very much aware there’s a market for it. Think about the overlaps between true crime watchers, people similar to ‘Ted Bundy wives’, fanfiction readers, and women who fetishize gay men through fanfiction
As a queer man perhaps he avoids taking accountability but can also make a lot of money off these groups in the process
Some days I feel like Ryan Murphy needs jail time for his crimes in TV. Because what is the thought process behind this? I think another reason he pisses me off, is because he makes so much stuff sexual when they don't need to be. I just cant fathom whats going on in his head.
it all started w the rubber man. should’ve never let that man continue writing
Dahmer was so historically inaccurate and politically charged that he’s defamed innocent people and disrespected the families and victims of Dahmer. He should be blacklisted.
someone on twitter said he has to force a ship with everything he makes and it’s so true
Huh didn't Blue is the Warmest colour win several awards and accolades, a standing ovation at Cannes and critically hailed as a great queer film?🤔
@ That is a terrible movie, are you joking pls tell me you're joking 😭
I absolutely despised the way the final episode ended, with the brothers discussing and pre meditating the murder when its clearly something the Menendez brothers disagreed with in the trials multiple times, they never had an actual plan to kill their parents, and the fact that this is the last impression that we as viewers get is so harmful, this is the thought process that we are forced to walk away with... IMO the episode should've ended with the brothers being separated with the milli vanilli song playing that scene was so emotional i started BAWLING.
I agree!
You know I cried too, it was really sad. Funny thing tho, while you’re bothered by the final scene on the boat, I’m bothered by the choice to use milli vanilli. Because as you may know, they were a fraud, right? So, while I know they were really successful exactly when the murders occurred, I feel like they were purposefully chosen with the intention to say that as far as the creators are concerned, the brothers (and subsequently their point of view , which in this case is a history of abuse) were a fraud, much like milli vanilli. And that heartbreaking moment, the one of them being separated after they apparently asked to be together only to then be transported at the same time to two different locations and get to find out right there and then on the bus (cuz apparently that’s exactly how they found out), was turned into mockery with that song choice. Like, don’t get me wrong, it got to me, I cried, I was so so sad for the brothers. But I also know that sometimes writers speak to us very directly via their song choices and I can’t help but feel like that milli vanilli song choice was so very deliberate. What do you think?
Meanwhile the boat scene was just yet another perspective, you mention the brothers disagreed with it being premeditated on the trials, right? Well, that doesn’t mean they’re telling the truth, does it? The fact of the matter is that we don’t know much of anything, we can only speculate based on very little evidence or we can just pick a side, a perspective. But the fact of the matter is that we don’t know if the brothers premeditated this or not. If they feared for their lives or not. If they did it for money or not. If they were abused or not. We simply don’t know. We just choose to believe them… or not.
So, if the creators want to end the show where the boys are plotting to kill their parents, well, then so be it. It’s not like we can say that didn’t happen. Tho I personally think that final scene was to demonstrate the creators perspective. I believe that they believe the brothers premeditated their parents murder and that is why they ended the show with the parents excited about their future while surrounded by juvenile sharks (I mean, can they be any more obvious?) with both of their children plotting to kill them on the other side of the boat. It was almost like an after credits scene in which the creators were saying, “well, we gave you all of the perspectives from the time when the murders occurred across 9 episodes, and now here is ours. And what can we do, right? They’re allowed to have their own take on it. I mean, if I’m right and that’s how the creators feel, then it makes me sad because I believe and support the brothers. But I can’t in good conscience say with certainty that I know what happened. Only the brothers know.
thats sooo fcked up.
Ok but over here in reality is was premeditated
@@TreySarverI don’t think these clowns know what premeditation mean any sense of planning in court will be considered premeditated
I am terrified for his take on Ed Gein.
Gein's crimes are like no other and Ryan Murphy will cover them with vile, exploitive glee
We don't even have proof of Gein taking more than one life! He's a bizarre, tragic figure, and I shudder to think what kind of Troma bullshit Murphy will weave out of that.
And Zoomers in the comments section will be defending Ed Gein
i can’t believe he’s doing ed gein. No one ever talks about him. I personally think he’s the worst of them all
@@handler65 albert fish was worse.
@@handler65 Ed Gein only has 2 confirmed murders.
Ryan doesn't care about the facts of such a sensitive case. Just the aesthetics.
Fr. And with the possibility of a retrial shows like this can harm the judicial process by making it harder to get an impartial jury
he's so incredibly shallow
I actually had to pause the video and walk around at hearing 15:32. I can't believe he actually said that, ESPECIALLY knowing that the relationship between the brothers ISNT facts, like this feels like slander, but I know alot of people wont see it like that
The show took mostly viewpoints from multiple angles. The most outrageous part was the accusation of incest between the brothers, but the accusations from the brothers about the father isn't factually based either. They never reported it in therapy, but told the therapist they killed their parents. Deposition from the workers stated they never saw or heard any kinds of abuse the brothers were talking about, only family and friends who stood to make money from their release stated they were abused, but even if that's true, the premeditated murder doesn't have any evidence showing they were going to be killed by their parents... The Netflix series did a pretty good job capturing everything and the brother didn't take the stand in the 2nd trial because he was recorded talking about how he would manipulate the jury. I think your bias is coming through on this one
@@Joshpower57 I'm not gonna entertain this
Yeah, cuz it’s not.
@@Joshpower57make money from their release?? How can the relatives make money from their release?
Also, did you actually read Norma’s book?
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 Whatever u say bud 🫡
I'm glad that you also found The Hurt Man as such a powerful episode. I wish the rest of the show wasn't mostly shit.
You say this like it’s not the way most people feel about that episode. He even mentions how literally everyone agrees how powerful that episode was.
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 I watched the show with someone and they HATED that episode, and I do not use Twitter so I really don't know most people's perspective on this episode. I wasn't trying to make some kind of "unpopular opinion" comment or anything like that.
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 ? No…this original commenter didn’t do that at all-they just said they’re glad meeptop did as well. At no point did they “say it like” that’s not how other people felt about the episode. They are solely talking about themselves and the experience they had with the episode and disliking the rest of the series. Weird comment to leave guess tone/intent will always be difficult for some people to decipher online
@@tasonjoddyeah which is why you couldn’t decipher it. Ep 5 is so well liked that one might even be inclined to say it’s universally liked if they were a fan of hyperboles to make a point, which I’m not and yet here I am. I guess there is a first time for everything. 😄
Seriously tho, it’s no surprise this TH-camr liked ep 5 so this person going “oh I’m glad you liked it” comment is so unnecessary because it’s such an obvious thing for anyone to like that episode. I mean if they had added actual insights on the episode to discuss their shared appreciation for the episode taht would be a different story. But then just going, “oh I’m glad you liked it” and basically leave it at that implied there was a level of surprise which doesn’t make much sense since, as I said, this ep is universally liked.
Now go on and send me a reply where you reiterate how you can’t decipher tone while trying to convince me that’s actually me who can’t. lol 😉
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133how about instead I send a reply you don’t get to dictate what is a “necessary comment” on a TH-cam video. The original commenter didn’t have to add any new insight to the conversation. They simply made a comment. Not sure what you’re so up in arms about seeing as how you did the exact same thing and proceeded to double down. But I do like when people double down when they’re wrong, it’s entertaining. Here this is for you: 🍪
The worst part about this show is that it's getting all the credit for why the brothers might go free despite all of Murphrot's obvious efforts to slander them. Previously, he compared them to Jeffrey Dahmer and accused them of having sex with eachother. The intention is paper thin.
This! Like the nerve to create a show out of this, and saying "we're presenting all the facts" then showing a relationship between the brothers when thats NEVER been confirmed as fact 😭. Making their lives actively worse just for a check
They shouldn't be released. They both killed their parents, fantasized about it and never spoke to their therapist about ever being abused, but were comfortable with discussing murdering their parents and threatening the therapist? It's insane that people are actually believing two manipulative murderers, but hey it's 2024
@Joshpower57 Wow! You're an idiot.
They did not threaten Oziel, that man is a proven liar.
I believe evidence and the experts. The evidence and experts say they were abused and killed out of fear, that's manslaughter. It was a huge miscarriage of justice that they got sentenced to firste degree murder.
But hey, keep sympathizing for a rapist and his pedo wife.
@@Joshpower57When did they fantasize about it? And even if they did… MANY abused kids fantasize about unaliving their abusers. Erik told his therapist after months because he was extremely suicidal and hallucinating. That’s why. Have you only watched this show?
@@Joshpower57 It's 2024: people've forgot to use their brain.
Cooper Koch really needs to be in more projects. The entire episode where Erik is speaking to his lawyer, which is shot in one long continuous take, really showcases his acting range.
being sad and gay isnt really Daniel Day Lewis levels of range
I don't know if it shows his range but it definitely shows that he is able to leave a very lasting impact on many people with his acting. Would be interesting to see him in more stuff.
@@closelaugh185 shut up
Once again 🪄 and yesss that monologue is breathtaking.
@@closelaugh185 no one cares if someone’s gay or not. his acting was top tier
Thank you for this! I pretty much agree with everything you said, except pertaining to episode 5. Yes it was well done, but they still added things in that Erik never said. In fact they completely went against things he’s said. He’s had to explain over and over that he is not gay, but ep 5 had him explicitly say he fell in love with a boy and had sex with him. So I can’t stand even that one episode.
Yes, I wish more people would pick up on this! He's said that he understands that people in the gay community identify with him and he says there's nothing wrong with being gay, but Erik also says that he's categorically not gay
Erik did say that he did experiment with a boy multiple times in his life, but that he was not gay. He does say in the trial that he was always confused & didn’t understand “why it stopped hurting so much”. It’s heartbreaking all around. The actual lie is the relationship with his prison mate.
Yeah, well, it’s not a documentary, so…
Also, according to the actor who played Erik, Lyle did see episode 5 and congratulated him saying he really did capture Erik. That’s not the same as saying that he confirmed the entire narrative of that episode but it’s certainly more positive to him, his brother, than it is to you. Unless that actor is lying.
@@Jana-fs2qfinteresting. What did he mean by stopped hurting so much tho?
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 Erik said towards the end of his abuse, his father penetrating him didn’t hurt like it used to, so it caused him to be extremely confused about his sexuality and whether he enjoyed it or not.
It's the most TV-show looking TV-show. There are a million ways you could present this story, but we get standard modern cinematography. Shallow depth of field with oversaturated everything. Blurgh. And everyone has a squeaky-clean wardrobe with perfect hair because they director can't stop playing with his dolls. It's disgusting to look at. But not in a good way.
What situation would disgusting be "in a good way"?
@@velmad3894 A lot of styles. Faux documentary. Grindhouse. Lynchian. I'm not saying it should be an esoteric art piece, but you can have a 'dirty' or look to a project that can set it apart. I think the iPhone-Ad style used here is, pardon the pun, phoned in.
@@_uncredited you're spot on - marry me.
@@amirahazhar4192weird comment.
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133it's not even remotely that serious.
The guy who played Lyle(Nicholas Alexander Chavez) is a perfect candidate for the American Psycho remake, and it's a shame that we found out through a terrible show like Monsters, where he was meant to depict both a victim and perpetrator, which was unfortunately written by Ryan Murphy. I think your choice of editing really sold it to me, great video!
Then you’re too easy to manipulate.
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 how come?
@@paintedfingernail2308hahahahahahahahaha
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133damn true crime girly stop acting like you're in a televised debate getting velocity edited and answer the question like a normal fucking person
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133damn true crime girly stop acting like you're in a televised debate getting velocity edited and answer the question
Netflix putting out the monsters show weeks before a documentary about them is so incredibly greedy but I guess I should be glad that they are finally being allowed to tell their story even if it meant putting money into the pockets of the same people who exploited the hell out of their trauma? I just hope that the newfound hype leads to the brothers finally being released. They have been through enough already.
HBO also released one, I haven't heard anything about it yet, but I hope its more truthful than what Netflix is putting out
Greedy?? You mean they’re trying to make money? Omg the monsters, how dare they, huh?
Get real. 🙄
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 everything is done for profit I know that, but Netflix releasing a dramatized true crime show and a very real and well researched documentary just withing days of eachother feels a little too exploitative
As talented as Guadignino is, I think an American Psycho remake in itself is painfully redundant. The 2000 film by Harron is as close to perfect as filmmaking gets. Having a female director was brilliant and bold because of the themes and main character. I feel as if remaking it will reduce everything not only the film is about, but the novel by Ellis as well. It’s unnecessary and will profit off its iconicity, nothing else. I cannot imagine Patrick being played by anyone else.
But I’ve been wrong before. I do hope they scrap it but you have convinced me to watch E5 of this series I’m glad there’s one gem in there because I was conflicted with watching this series having a feeling it would only make me angry knowing the case fairly well. Thank you, your Ryan Murphy critiques are always spot on
well movies don't feel real these days, all the actors have fake teeth, fake hair, stiff faces, fake lips, lashes and noses, no one looks like a person you'd see walking down the street anymore, it's such a shame really.
@@The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare that is definitely part of the issue, could not agree more. The original film felt like you were watching a bunch of asshole Wall Street men have actual interactions with each other and women they clearly did not give a shit about, even when it reached the “campy” (or baroque lul) level of dialogue that’s sole purpose is to be satirical. I don’t think writers are capable of pulling that off anymore. At least not the ones who get most of the work for big Hollywood films. They refuse to take risks.
I know you were mostly talking about appearances but I think that’s also made more obvious by how utterly fake their dialogue sounds. Almost all movies I watch that were recently made I am so aware that what I’m viewing are actors on a soundstage or green screen.
@@tasonjodd no you are completely right and also I just noticed Tae hehe
@@The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare 😏🫰
Knowing that he's making a new show on Edward Gein, I really hope Ryan Murphy doesn't make it sexual for some reason. And I also hope he doesn't make Gein seem like some playboy cutie with masculine muscles, Gein was a very miserable and pitiful human being.
He absolutely will. There's already fanfiction 'essays' written about Gein's 'skinsuits' that suggest he tried making them because he wanted to be his mommy and was secretly trans from boyhood. You know he'll go all in on that nonsense.
oh god. they're going to imply that ed gein was trans, aren't they. they're going to make him buffalo bill, aren't they. jesus christ someone stop ryan murphy please.
props to channel medusone in her real housewive's video for doing actual research about ed gein and dispelling some of the myths about him
Did he not have sexual feelings towards his mom tho? He was a very twisted person so I'm pretty sure there were some incestual things going on. Hence why he was trying to dress up in women's clothing and skin after his mom died
Oh but we know that he WILL make it sexual
@@Jess-Rabbit Alot of Ed Geins case has just been made up, specifically regarding his mother. Nobody will truly know why he did the things he did, because so many of his confessions conflicted with each other. All we do know is that Augusta Gein was a gross sexist who isolated him from women and that after she died, Ed went insane. Why he wore the skin will probably never be solved, because he gives like 7 different conflicting reasons.
you nailed it man. It's all about money at the end of the day with these shows, and that's why I refuse to watch any of this new true crime stuff... exploiting real people with horrific stories for entertainment and money? That's not right at all.
Me too. I refuse to watch them. I'll watch trial footage if i want to know things.
It was really off putting to me that they chose to make us feel sympathetic to the Mendez’ SA struggles only to rip the rug out from under us at the very end. It plays into a very harmful stereotype that SA victims lie about their experience for attention or w/e. If they were going to go that route they should have at least kept the audience in the know the whole time and not make us get so emotionally involved in that part of the story.
Waiting on Murphrot to get Weinsteined at this point
You’re gross.
Someone needs to check that man's hard drives.
Ryan Murphy is like those sick tumblr accounts I saw back in 2012 or 2013 where they romanticize Dharmer because he was catching, and make Ted Bundy look like an icon to admire because of how handsome he was. I swear if he does a Ted Bundy netflix special, he’s gonna be pushing it officially
I asked my mom showing her the Netflix poster, "What would you say this series is about?". She said "Something like Brokeback mountain?". I said "It's a true crime story, what would you say it's about?". She said "Looks like a crime of passion case." I said "It's a story about two brothers killing their parents after their father abuses them for most of their life". She looked again at the poster, her face slowly morphing into mild disgust and asked "And why is it like *that*?"
Like, the sheer fact that the real Erik Menendez says on-screen "I can't remember a time my father wasn't f***ing me", and yet gets constantly presented as a vulnerable twink, not to mention the running with the incest theory (especially knowing the COCSA that happened between the brothers) made me feel physically dirty, not even exaggerating.
There’s someone in the comment section replying to like 90% of people and trying to defend the portrayal of the brothers and the blatant lies throughout and that to me represents exactly why the show should have never been made. This isn’t “just a show”. It’s a real story, with real people. They aren’t fictional characters. Erik and Lyle aren’t “fictional victims of SA”. They truly were abused. Say what you want about them murdering their parents, but they have a right to have a say in how their SA is portrayed for the public. Especially when one brother is blatantly portrayed as a closeted gay man (he’s denied this COUNTLESS times) and both are portrayed as incestuous.
it's probably Ryan lmao
@@wellthisisinteresting4912 that’s what I was thinking 😭
Hey, i like homoerotic thrillers as much as the next guy... but i'd really prefer if Murphy stuck to pure fiction.... he could do more, without disrespecting real human beings.
But it wouldn't be as popular... cause, you know, people are stalkers...
I've binge watched the entire series with my gf and I can confirm our necks are absolutely broken from all the tonal whiplash we went through. It was actually stunning how awful this show was, how many weird jokes and campy montages they were able to shove in this excuse of a "documentary". We've had fun watching it, but for all the wrong reasons. It felt like I was watching a hilarious dark comedy that touches its subject so poorly it made it feel almost "trivial", just to remember this was supposed to be based on REAL people and their very REAL experience and trauma.
I thought Dahmer was bad, but after watching the weird Menendez fanfiction I grew to apprecittate the consistent tone of Dahmer (which I'm glad you mentioned in the video). I just can't take Monsters seriously because of how we cut from sappy badly-to-mediocre acted monologues about stuff we already know to some goofy montage where the creators play with Menendez brothers like Ken dolls in a comedy movie.
Don't even get me started on how they tried to be all artsy and deep with the shitty uncut 40 minute episode of Erik just talking about WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW. It was lazy, cheap, boring and the fact that it is the highest rated episode on imdb (it's wild that any of these episodes have a rating above 4) is honestly wild.
I hate that Lyle was basically Patrick Bateman, I hate that Erik came off as a 14yo girl's idea of a sad little submissive boy, I hate that their dad was honestly a hilarious and charismatic character even during the darker moments because it made me feel like I was not supposed to care.
It's sad, because now when I actually want to get into the case of Lyle and Erik, it's stained by a silly little cutaway gag of them having facial reconstruction surgery and fleeing the country. It's not just predatory like Dahmer, it's straight up just people playing around with tragedy and trauma of real ass people trying to come off as a genuine attempt to do... Something? The only way they may have succeded at doing what they wanted is if their goal was to make a show worse than Dahmer in every single way.
I,m so glad I watched the documentary first. Because when I started the series, I couldn't go past 10 minutes. I shut that shit down with zero remorse! I was DISGUSTED. The Netflix documentary really focus on their testimony and it was so hard to watch I had to take several pause.
It’s not a documentary in any way shape or form.
wow! great take. i agree with you.
Why watch garbage trash "critically" when you could have quit watching it a lot sooner tho? Like what that one person who responded to your comment did
Ryan Murphy is trash, he's a vulture in the worst way at this point, exploiting actual tragedies involving people that are still alive constantly and people really need to wake up and stop supporting it. He's absolutely gross. And yes, it's about him as a person along with the writers and others involved, they chose to take part in this exploitation for a check, that's disgusting and should be called out. Making popular entertainment is not an excuse for doing real harm to real people that are still alive to live with the consequences and trauma "entertainment" like this causes them. Ryan Murphy and everyone else in the cast and crew, get to go home to their money off making fan fiction out of real trauma while the actual humans involved have to live with the damage.
I really dont care for Murphy. There's so many great artists in our queer community. The fact that he is the one that deals directly with themes of homosexuality (and, in general the othering of queer people at large) that most people are familiar with, really isn't great for us. It's like he plays in to every suffocating stereotype of what a gay man is like.
And honestly, you refering to some of his writting as "tasteless" couldn't be a better characterisation of his writing.
I feel like "tasteless" understates just how bad his writing really is. I'm not sure what word would adequately convey the badness of it all better, though.
I need to say, the movie Radio Flyer (starring a toddler Elijah wood dealing with an abusive stepfather who SPOILERS eventually kills his brother) reminds me a lot of this case. In the film the kids think up of this crazy idea to get away from the dad, that to them makes sense considering the trauma, their age, and the mother ignoring the problem. The Menendez brothers were only 18 and 21 at the time, brain hasn’t even fully developed and had been messed with since they were kids. My guess is they really believed using the shotguns were a good way to protect themselves at the time.
i hate ryan murphy. making money out of victims. disgusting.
also yeah, i loved cooper koch's acting but i love him too, because he's constantly advocating for the brothers.
If the show was just The Hurt Man and they branded it as a short film or a special episode between seasons I think it would have literally been better than what we got as a whole
Could’ve been so much better if they just took inspiration from the case and made their own characters out of it.
while i understand the different perspectives they were trying to portray in this series, it wasn’t the wisest choice. people don’t do research on these topics for themselves, they just take what they’re presented and run with it, leaving room for tons of misinformation and just straight false claims to circulate around the internet.
It’s a valid narrative choice, but it just didn’t work because it was so poorly done. Sometimes I wasn’t even sure whose perspective I was supposed to be watching. And don’t even get me started on the choice to focus so heavily on the perspectives of Jerome Oziel and Dominick Dunne, two absolute frauds and liars, over the perspective of Robert Rand, a journalist who has been communicating with the brothers since before they were even suspects and is still in contact with and advocating for them 35 years later. It’s just utterly disgusting and in bad faith. Chloe Sevigny who played the mother even said she used Dominick Dunne’s writing as a source and Nicholas Chavez who played Lyle made reference to a comment that was proven to be a fabrication as if it was fact. The lack of legitimate, unbiased research that went into this series is just a complete embarrassment and disservice to the story.
Damn man, God bless you! I mean it with great sincerity that you are truly, officially the absolute best TH-camr out there.
Very briefly: I suffer(d) from severe anxiety/panic, OCD and some depression, but honestly, watching your videos every time they come out seems to outright cure me somehow.
You offer brilliant analysis, a human touch that many can relate to, a thorough and fair critique of the movies or series being discussed, humor and plenty to be entertained by and to think about.
It’s a godsend. Can I please implore you to make like A LOT more videos? There are many other movie/TV TH-camrs out there, and a great number of them are fabulous, but damn, you take the cake!
Please keep up the amazing work and I hope and pray to see a lot more!
Also havent seen anyone talking about it but this thing netflix is doing of launching the series and them the documentary is so gross to me, like the money is going to them by both sides, they're creating the problem with a "problematic view" and sensacionalizing it them showing the documentary as "the whole truth" like its the same company, they could put the truth from the documentary in the series, put they purposely make this "mistakes" or "fanfictions" to attract audiences to the documentary
just saw you talked about it in the video
Bro went meta on meta on meta
Ryan Murphy has made it VERY clear since the show’s release that he has absolutely no interests in who the Menendez family was and that he was trying to capture a “moment in history”, but he did such a horrible job of it and the show fails completely even as a piece of entertainment. It felt like a cartoon.
The research was also laughable. They clearly used Dominick Dunne’s writing as a primary source, even though Dunne was a prosecution shill and has been exposed as paying people to make shit up to make the brothers look bad. Marti Shelton admitted in 2004 that Dunne paid her $1,000 to lie and say she heard Lyle say he’d “snowed the jury”. She admitted in 2004 she’d never heard him say that. He also paid people to lie and say he saw the brothers high five after their testimonies, which conveniently was never captured on camera… because it never happened. It’s not surprising he produced such a meanspirited, bad faith adaptation considering he used a mean spirited, bad faith book as his source. It’s just an embarrassment for everyone involved.
The Menendez brothers deserved better. Shows like this just further the false narrative that there was no evidence they were abused when in reality it’s the exact opposite and the prosecution, judge and media made it their mission to bury the abuse evidence. They snowed the media.
I also find it really interesting that you point out the show portrays Dominick Dunne very unfavourably, but they used his writing as a primary source. It’s genuinely so bizarre and just furthers the idea that this show had no idea what it was trying to say.
Thank you. I couldn’t get past the first 2 1/2 episodes of the Dahmer season
My wonderful colleague is a sweet natured and deeply kind person who absolutely LOVES true crime. She’s (relatively) sheltered, outside of experiencing racism as a woman of colour in Australia, and a baby boomer. I think she likes true crime in the fairly typical ‘scare the suburbanites’ 6pm ‘if it bleeds, it leads’ kind of way
When we talk about these things, I try and keep it either vague and broadly ‘that’s terrible ‘, particularly about unfolding crime. But if it’s something I think is needlessly sensationalised and victimising, eg “news” stories on “youth ‘African’ crime gangs” in Melbourne - which is straight up racist sensationalism based on recycled fears of migrants - I generally say something about the reality of crime statistics and police racism. She’s a lovely person and generally receptive to these conversations, at least in a polite way
But she still recommended me both seasons of this show, and thinks it’s well done when it’s just stoking conservative fears with a shallow empathic gloss over the top to absolve audience guilt over enjoying this muck. It’s heartbreaking that it fools even genuinely kind people who would otherwise be open to more compassionate systematic appraisals
Anyone truly interested in true crime KNOWS netflix fictionalisations are inaccurate, misleading, unhelpful. I would argue that true crime should always remain with documentaries to avoid this dramatic unauthentic element - it's hurtful to victims living and does an injustice to those dead by not being as 💯 truthful as possible.
Thanks! Now I know for absolute sure I do not want to watch even to satiate my curiosity of how bad it is.
This show had SO much potential to be good. Great cast, great production values, but I just KNEW Ryan Murphy would find a way to fuck it up.
I thought all the actors did a good job, but the cast was wasted with the script. Having Javier Bardem, someone who is known for playing psychopaths, but instead Jose is reduced to mostly just a "tough, strict" but loving dad without really going into how brutal he was. I'm not just talking about his treatment towards his children, but his treatment towards adults, colleagues, everyone that knew him spoke of what a horrible person he was. Yet, we don't really see any of that. Kitty is mostly just a neurotic, alcoholic enabler, and we see her being "driven to drink" by her "horrible" kids, but we don't get to see how abusive and neglectful she was towards her kids. And the brothers, ESPECIALLY Lyle are just these caricatures. Showing Lyle do drugs? Where was the evidence of that? Being obsessed with Milli Vanilli? Where did that come from? lol
When it was announced the show would have a Rashomon effect, I was already reluctant. However, the show made it 10x worse. The main problem with it using the Rashomon effect, was that it wasn't really the Rashomon effect at all. Take the first episode for example. One could argue "well this is Oziel's perspective", but it's not presented to the audience as being Oziel's POV. Had the episode ended with Oziel in court saying "that's what they told me happened", then okay. But to someone who's never researched the case, without knowing this is Oziel's POV, the audience will just see the events of this episode as "the truth" since there's no narrator.
They sort of do this in the beginning of episode 2 when they show the police incompetence and show the brothers' hasty coverup of the crime and trying to incriminate themselves. However, this gets thrown out the window quickly when the start the brothers' spending spree lol.
Meanwhile, episodes 4 and 5 which focus on the brothers recounting the events, at this point, since we just saw the brothers in the last 3 episodes being SO unlikeable and untrustworthy, so by the time we're seeing the brothers's POV and telling this story to their attorneys, it's just that, "a story". This is later amplified during the later episodes when they're in court, and Lyle's "practicing" his testimony and the attorneys are coaching him.
One could argue that the shower scene Dominick Dunne talks about in episode 7 is just Dunne's POV and we can see him as an unreliable narrator, but what about the other scenes from the earlier episodes that imply incest or Erik being gay where Dunne's not narrating? Or the later episodes where the brothers are continuing to be obnoxious shitstains with no narrator presenting this? This isn't the Rashomon effect at all.
That's not even counting the obvious inaccuracies and inconsistencies presented in the show. The show puts tons of emphasis on Billionaire Boys Club (something that was largely discredited during the first trial, and not brought up at all in the second trial, iirc), the screenplay (which wasn't admitted in evidence in either trial), Erik "messing up" on the stand (which did not happen), and the Norma tapes (which still get brought up in the second trial scenes, but weren't allowed in the trial in real life since Lyle didn't testify). The show shows Leslie being a "crazy" attorney but doesn't show the bigotry and homophobia and misconduct from the prosecution (Lester Kuriyama's also nonexistent for some reason). We don't see many prosecution witnesses being caught lying. We don't see the corroborating evidence the defense brought forward at trial (and if we do, they're just seen as liars that Lyle paid). The show emphasizes the spending spree, but doesn't show the brothers lacking direction in life after the killings and not knowing what to do with the money. We see the crime scene brutally depicted from the prosecution's POV, but we don't see it from the brother's POV. The second trial scenes are insanely inaccurate, as we see prosecutor David Conn presented as some slick, noble prosecutor seeking justice for Mr. and Mrs. Perfect while we don't see him relentlessly mocking Erik on the stand, calling his abuse "the silliest story ever told in a courtroom" and saying "Lyle has black, dead eyes that deserve to be dead". We see Erik's throat injury consistent with CSA that he obtained at just seven years old, instead happening at 18 with him tripping on a popsicle (and it's supposed to be comedic?!).
Aside from the few vulnerable moments we see from the brothers, these are FAR outweighed by the negative portrayals of them. We have VERY few moments where we see Lyle looking out for Erik as an older brother and wanting to protect him. We don't see the abuse depicted AT ALL (obviously I don't want them to include CSA scenes, but they could show it like L&O did, nothing graphic). We don't see the brothers as PEOPLE, even before the crime (even though he did this with Jeffrey fucking Dahmer the previous season, he had no problem humanizing him). Instead, the brothers are reduced to these caricatures, even worse than the depictions from the 90s made-for-tv movies.
One could say they "didn't do their research", but I believe they DID do their research (knowing small, minor details such as Kitty lifting Christmas trees or Erik and Leslie playing hangmen), but still intentionally made an inaccurate portrayal. It's one thing to use "creative license" on some things, but to make a show about real people 90% fictional is just disgusting. If he wanted to make a fictional show about creepy, incesty brothers who kill for money, he could've changed their names and made it fiction.
I don't really get what Murphy's objective was with the show. I wouldn't be surprised if he's an abuser himself.
What psychopaths has Penelope Cruz’s husband played?
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133no country for old men was excellent
@@janicemoriarty2578 oh ok. I’ve never seen this actor before so lm curious if it’s an exaggeration or if he’s really known for playing several psychopaths.
Side note- it’s so weird to me because the dud does NOT look good in this show in my opinion but I’ve seen in in interviews and such and omg he’s actually quite attractive. It’s crazy how actors appear to completely change even their looks when they’re playing characters!
Best comment ever, cause really all the abuse being told in court was not shown at all. And the court room scene was so inaccurate
I was waiting for this video
I forced myself to watch the first episode of "Dahmer," asked myself, "Why?," and went no further. I asked similar questions about the "Monsters: Menendez" miniseries, but was fascinated by the weird tonal choices, aimed somewhere between Todd Haynes, telenovela and camp. As I kept watching, it became clearer to me that it was a "Rashomon" experiment, mirroring what was going on in Los Angeles (where I lived and worked in the entertainment biz) at the time. Everybody had their own theories, and every participant had their own story. Which parts of which accounts do you believe? The series is about acting, about performance -- public and private (as in the central, episode-long, single-take performance of Erik "confessing" to Leslie Abramson). We see crucial events repeated from various points of view, and are forced to ask who's telling the truth (or who believes that what they're saying is true), who's manipulating whom (the cops, the lawyers, the juries, the Netflix subscribers), and who's justifying their actions by blaming somebody else for them. You can believe the brothers that they were molested and thought their parents were out to kill them and still ask if what they did in the way they did it (none of which is contested) was morally or legally acceptable -- even if, on some level, it was understandable.
Different juries reached different conclusions about the Menendez brothers' culpability. Different viewers of this miniseries will, too. Leslie Abramson and Dominick Dunne were grandiose, ambitious, attention-seeking public performers -- both vilified and glorified by the press and public -- and what they say about each other in the series (whether they said it as scripted or not) simply gives voice to what many who followed the case were saying at the time. All of them may be true or untrue, or maybe a single definitive "truth" is impossible to determine. "Monsters" doesn't give you just one view of either of them -- or of the brothers. As you demonstrate here, you're free to create your own impression from the material available to you on the screen. It ends, as I recall, by recapitulating the scene on the boat from an alternate point of view. Do you think that one version is "real" and the other untrue? Do you think you can know enough to definitively answer that question? I saw echoes of "Zodiac" here -- about the appeal and frustration of the "true crime" illusion in general, and how we want to know things for certain that we will never know but can only speculate about...
Good comment. So what’s your view?
I believe the very last scene, the boat scene, is the creators perspective. I mean, they literally had the parents surrounded by juvenile sharks (very on the nose) talking about their future with excitement while the brothers were plotting their murder on the other side of the boat. Making this scene and making it the last scene feels to me like a post credit scene where they were like, well, we have you all perspectives at the time and this is ours. What do you think?
And as for my perspective, I stand with the brothers, I believe them. And I also have zero moral issues with a victim of abuse killing their abuser in cold blood. I’ll never lose any sleep over that. Meanwhile the brothers will have to live with the abuse and the fact that they killed their parents and that they’ll likely never leave prison for it. There is no winning here.
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 My view is that this is a "true crime" piece about how we can never know what's "true." We weren't there -- this is "only a movie" -- and it doesn't have a happy or definitive ending. Because it's about life, an ongoing narrative that doesn't adhere to a coherent three-act structure. (Again, like "Zodiac.") The obsession with "true crime" is narcissistic and probably unhealthy, but it's human nature to want to imagine "the answers" -- even when we aren't in any position to know them.
@@bacarandii no, I meant what’s your perspective in terms of the brothers. I said mine is that I believe them and that it appears to me that the creators of the shows perspective is that they premeditated it. So what’s yours? And while we are at it, do you think killing your own abuser is justifiable morally and/or legally? And why?
And why do you think the obsession with true crime is narcissistic?
@@thatgirlwearingglasses4133 I don't think there's any question that they're sociopaths -- nature or nurture, I have no way of knowing. But since they admit committing the premeditated murders (they carefully planned it all in advance), they are guilty. There's no legal defense because the unarmed parents were surprised while watching TV. The brothers could have gone to the police, could have left home and gotten a restraining order against the parents, but they chose to kill them instead. What they did might be understandable, but it's still morally and legally wrong. There's no way around that.
They didn’t really show multiple perspectives… Murphy seemed to only portray the prosecutions’ perspective/case
I really like your breakdowns, & the way you went through this series was the best review I’ve seen on it. Wish there was a poll to submit recommendations for you to rip through. Otherwise, Just a happy supporter. Cheers 👏🏻
I genuinely can’t believe this channel doesn’t have more attention. Keep up the amazing videos
Can we just watch in a loop Screm Queens season 1?
Still his best work and one of the few that are rewatchable
I also felt conflicted over whether Dahmer should have existed and it looks like that's the same question posed by this show so you saved me the time of watching it.. Subscribed because of this video. Please don't quit TH-cam.
I said I wouldn’t watch anything else by Ryan Murphy after Dahmer and the way he didn’t care about the feelings of the victims’ families, and I’m sticking to it. He’s exploitative, period.
the ending is pure gold
Why?
all my homies hate Ryan Murphy
As much as ryan murphy and everybody that likes this serie says he recounted the story from every prospective he ABSOLUTELY DID NOT we have all the time in the world to show the opinion of biased magazine writers with incest and lyle being abusive to kids and everyone arond him and eric being in gay sexual relationships and the parents rekindling their relationship (all false things by the way) but most of the brothers recountings are only talk and no show, we don't get flashbacks of the terrible abuse , expecially the mother side towars lyle, and the one we get are acted by adults and humoros like eric slipping with a popicle in his mouth acted by a 27yo chooper intead of a 7yo eric being orally raped (not that i want to see it but you get it)or the mother tring to poison them we don't see the prosecution say that man can't be raped because they don't have the parts, we dont see the family testify for the brothers ecc, was it not cinematic enough ? There were a million recounted abuse instances they could have shown without being sexual but they chose not to, we have a clear narrative actually , seeing as much naked young man rubbing on each other and being psychos for fun with a little bit of sob fake story in the middle, the fact that he was able to muster a little bit of grace for dahmer but not the menendez and he sandwiched their story between a cannibal serial killer and a man that made interior decoration out of dead bodies is insane.
The final line of your video is absolute perfection.
your videos scratch an itch for me i can’t quite describe. awesome stuff man
See, exploitation issues aside (which was a huge issue for sure), I had a totally different reaction to the tonal shifts and actually interpreted the show as taking a VERY clear stance with a central thesis: there are no "perfect victims."
This point is hammered home quite strongly not only through the amazing episode five, but also through our authorial stand-in, Leslie, who time and time again desperately tries to educate people this very topic in spite of so many characters having such black and white stances on the brothers. The fact that the brothers acted outlandishly and cartoonishly at times, to me, was less of a "oh see, they could've been those monsters indeed!" coin flip kind of moment (though on the surface, it did seem those scenes were presenting it that way), and more of a reminder that we are complicated, multifaceted people. Yes, maybe Lyle DID throw a tantrum over a car, but does that make him any less of a victim? No. Yes, maybe they DID act foolishly and impulsively and violently, but does that mean they were sociopaths? Also, no. I could, of course, be giving it more credit than it's due, but by the end I felt so much empathy with and sympathy for the brothers that it just cemented for me the writers did side with them and ultimately want us to (not for murdering their parents, per se, but for suffering at their hands and being misunderstood, imperfect victims who reacted to abuse in an imperfect way).
Now, whether or not this succeeded overall is totally up for debate of course, and I can understand why it didn't work for a lot of people too. The show is absolutely imperfect and not without its flaws.
I appreciate your analysis either way and you absolutely make a lot of excellent points that I agree with! I think if this show had been purely fictional it would've worked quite well.
"Eric, they're gonna make a fking movie about us. who's gonna play us?" that would have pulled me right out of it, immediately. It seems smug. I hate it.
Look, I do think adaptations from real life can benefit from more comedy. A great example is "The Dropout", which I think it can be considered as a "dramedy" of sorts. The thing is, the writers in that show knew what aspects of the story could be dealt in a comical manner (all the Silicon Valley shenanigans, for instance) and what aspects should be taken seriously (for example, the experiences of the people who worked at Theranos). The result it's a very effective show that highlights the crimes of Holmes and Theranos while putting a mirror to the viewer so we can see what type of behavior can cause the conditions for something like Theranos to happen.
Sadly, I don't think Murphy has been able to accomplish such thing but more importantly I don't think he cares.
Very well put, I couldn't agree more.
I appreciate the acknowledgement of the videos monetary attribution and feeling guilty about promoting shows like these, however a perspective I'd like to bring attention to is one I share. I have not watched The Menendez Brothers show nor the Dahmer show, nor do I have any intention of doing so based on my beliefs about giving monetary gain to people whom I think are exploiting very real and traumatic events. Therefore videos like these made by educated people about these kinds of shows are beneficiary to people like me who want to educate others about how harmful media that fictionalizes real events without having to financially endorse the shows.
Of course I can acknowledge that I can't just copy what people say, so it's also important for me (and people who also don't want to watch the shows) to watch other videos contributing other perspectives to gain more knowledge and shape my own perspective.
Ngl I had my problems with this show, but I thought the acting was solid on all fronts
All the Menendez news lately keeps reminding me of Ben Stiller in Cable Guy. The clip you showed of Lyle (?) crying has clinched it.
Omg I think about that all the time. I love Zoolander, but I’m really sad that Ben stiller made fun of them (parody) in the film.
@@user-hc2tu7ul7j I have wondered if he regretted it later. I mean it was making fun of a real crime at the time. But bless his heart I give Ben Stiller a pass for being immature at the time. Cable Guy still one of my fave movies.
The attempt to inject some campiness into this show was just offputting. Rying murping’s artistic peak was ahs freakshow and he knows it but he just cant let the past go… actually now that im thinking about it the cinematographer was the one carrying the ahs vision before it went to shit
cainvarner recently made an interesting video about the decline in Murphy's work inre: cinematic quality, specifically AHS, if you're especially interested in that kind of stuff
If it makes you feel any better, I have no intention of watching any Ryan Murphy content! Thanks for your review!
You could even say that the show fails...tremenendezly.
Murphy makes being gay his entire personality and then projects it onto his characters 🤷🏽♀️
12:44 yes!! If Ryan started the series from the reporter perspective then SHIFT and REMAIN in a better perspective, he could accomplish what he thinks he did. But he had the perspectives flip flop and validates all the sides. Nope. That doesn’t work for a situation like this that happened in real life.
I'm so sad that Ryan Murphy fell off. I'm still a big fan of the first season of Feud (Bette & Joan) and I feel like he hasn't made anything good after that
@6:33 Calling on the 80s weepy voiced killer case as inspiration
2:33 Not only Copper Koch was good but also Nicholas he had even harder thing to do because he was already written as asshole and not as Lyle really was and i think he also did great job
i am so glad i’m not the only one who was reminded of american psycho while watching monsters it is so incredibly uncomfortable it just shows how much ryan murphy actually cares about this story
exploit a tragedy and make money off of it. while conveniently leaving out the victims story. gross.
I honestly think that Ryan Murphy just picks a script or screenplay (idk how any of this shit works) that someone else made and adds his own bull to it and maybe occasionally leaves sum creative control to another person and that’s how we get the good parts like the hurt man ep
6:47 Who funnily enough was also in another horror novel film adaptation by Luca Guadagnino, Bones and All (2022).
I think its point was to tell the story from everyones pov. Including the parents, the public, friends, the brothers, leslie, the cops, the press. Its very confusing and winds up saying nothing.
26:56 - JFC, am I alone in finding that deeply disgusting?
The purpose is to make Ryan Murphy a lot of Freedom Eagle coins.
It made me aware that the Hale Brothers on Venture Bros we're partially inspired by the menendez brothers and not just the Hardy Boys so that's something i guess?
I’m by no means a true crime person, however when shows like this come out I always go back to Mindhunter, my favorite true crime show that I feel is actually handled well I would love to see a video on that if you’ve ever looked into it I think it would satisfy the things you disliked (and rightfully so) with this and Dahmer
Thanks for watching this monstrosity cause I'm so NOT gonna support another Netflix "true" crime. That elevator scene feels so WTF, like is the audience supposed to be on the side of the person who claims that someone's trauma of losing a daughter is all their personality boils down to. That just disgustingly dehumanizing. Yes, it is good to acknowledge trauma, but sensationalizing it is just as bad as ignorance, if not worse.
I wanted to do a video on Monsters but RIP the king has made a video 🤣🙏🖤
You're amazing 👏
The Hurt Man was amazing. The rest of the show felt like a betrayal after seeing that episode.
No point, they are just grinding money from the tragedy. 📈📈📈
Oh lord, no one tell Ryan Murphy about Dean Corll…
"They did it" you had abt 2 seconds before I closed the video 💀
You cooked with this
I think this guy didnt get the show the point of the show was to show all the perspectives of what happened because its an extremely complex situation and when shit flip flops it asks the viewer to think and thats why it takes so long to get through
This is why I refuse to watch this mini-series. To portray them as being in a sexual, incestuous relationship? How disgusting, after you've been raped by your father your entire life! I refuse to watch that play out in front of me after I know what those boys really went through.
That shower scene was really off putting for me 💀
"the music is fairly good" awesome criticism
Amazing ending. It does give a f* point of view.
Good video
Meep!
I disagree with everything this guy says. Loved the direction, tone, points of view, and ALL performances.
at this point u just gotta wonder why someone is giving this dude turning his personal kinky true crime fanfiction into tv shows the money and means to actually turn it into tv shows.
I decided to stop watching depraved exploitive TV shows and movies. Went back to watching more stories with a morally righteous shows and cartoons.
idk i kinda liked the show, but also ryan murphy peaked wit pose
It's not trying "to do" anything, it is just a powerful man in the streaming business bringing his own fetishy fanfiction to life because he can. Wish he would stick to 100% fictional characters, though, because what he is doing with real people and their life stories is pretty disgusting and darn irresponsible.
I hear why you don’t like it but I don’t understand why you don’t like it.
Had no interest in watching this show and continue to have no interest lol
Important discussion to have, tho. I think we all generally recognize that fictionalized stories about real events can significantly shift our perspective of reality and frankly already have for centuries at this point (see HH Holmes as a great example).
Is there a perfect way to retell the past visually if you want to be accurate to as many perspectives as possible? I think well-researched documentaries can come close (though no one is perfect). So a good question to ask is: why did the creators of this story and many others create a sensationalized, cinematic retelling instead of a documentary? Entertainment for the hope of profit.
Asking why something was made is a great tool for critical thinking, and a very quick way to depress yourself realizing how many popular things just exist to consume consumers.
I consider it his a work of fiction. I think Ryan Murphy wants to direct kinky porn but is too afraid to admit it so it ends up in our regular tv. Dude it’s okay just make porn 😭 free the brothers 💖
I think the reactions to the netflix series have been the best example of biases in people