Townshend Seismic Podium for loudspeakers
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
- Loudspeakers need to loose cabinet resonances according to general high-end knowledge. But what if someone would tell you that you should prevent floor movements to enter your loudspeakers?
Contents of this video
00:00 - Intro
00:21 - Start of program
01:23 - Seismic noise
04:53 - The springs
06:41 - setting up
08:30 - The adjustment
09:58 - How tested?
10:52 - Sound quality
11:42 - The wrap
Manufacturer:
www.townshendaudio.com/
Paper: townshendaudio.com/PDF/Earthqu...
Equipment lent by:
www.rmrsoundsystems.nl
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Q&A: Which device is better?: • Q&A: Which device is b... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Finding the speaker's balance point with a rolling pin is brilliant. Thank you for the tip
Glad it was helpful!
I have been using the seismic isolators for some years and would not be without them. Instead of using podiums I have replaced my speaker spikes with individually purchased pods of the correct loading and they look great and cost a lot less. I don't know if you can still purchase Thownsend speaker bars but these go under the speakers with pods fitted at each corner so all you see is the pods which I think look pretty smart. I also use the Tonwshend rack for my equipment. The overall effect of the isolation is to increase soundstage significantly and tighten soft bass at the same time they take away the brittle sound of spikes, coming across more analogue /organic . An added benefit is the isolators are kind to wooden floors and they stop the speakers transmitting vibration into the floor as spikes do. Put your hand on a wooden floor in front of the speaker and you feel no vibration. RIP Max, he was a great character and a very clever guy.
I purchased a pair of these + the seismic isolation bars for my sub. I was skeptical at first as they are bloody expensive but the difference is audible & measurable! Using room correction I measured a 2db decrease around 40hz and 3db around 120hz - problem frequencies/nodes in my room! Ultimately - a flatter frequency response, wider soundstage and hugely clearer bass + the added bonus of a vibration free house - My neighbors haven’t complained since!
Thanks for sharing
"The aesthetic committee that vetoed the addition" Yes, I get your point, but I am jealous of your bombshell, beautiful reference one system, industrial look or not, I love your videos and your great sense of humor. Thank you 🔈
My pleasure
Hans these things aren't that bad looking why didn't you keep them for your reference two system which incidentally I've never heard about so could you tell us about your reference two system.
Been using the podiums for a couple of years now. No going back to spikes/etc. The sound is transformed for the better in the ways you describe. And it’s not subtle. The only downside is that sometimes the springs can vibrate when there is really deep bass in the music but it’s rare. These are now a fundamental building block for my hifi. Thanks, Max. RIP.
Nice to see you back in action Hans. Love your professional videos. Best health to you. Interesting topic worth more looking into for sure as I have wooden floors over a full basement below with long spans.
Thanks, Hans. I know others who rave about the Townsend podiums. You have validated their opinions. Now I need to start saving up for the investment!
Hello Hans, thank you for bringing this up. I have a pair of Townsend Podiums under my PMC Fact 12s on a wooden floor with concrete joist and underfloor heating. Feels very solid, but from the off the effect of the Podiums was somewhat astounding resting them on top with no spikes. The entire frequency band was positively affected resulting in tighter bass and everything above with higher perceived resolution, more detail resulting in better soundstage, imaging etc. It is a great product 👍🏼 Best Peter
thank you Hans! another great review on a very important topic. it reminded me that Ben Lilly from ATC mentioned in a TH-cam interview that Townshend's productos really do a proper job of isolating to a low enough frequency...
Hi Hans, glad you're looking into this highly technical area. I look forward to your wonderful insights further.
I am so sorry to hear about Max, I had the pleasure to spend an afternoon listening to his new suspension Hifi platform in 1998 after he serviced my Elite Rock TT (I still own). He called this the "one note demo". Ever since then I've always wanted to invest in his isolation technology. Money is finally less tight so thank you for validating my desire.
Once I've settled on the upgrade speakers I'll be purchasing the podiums.
All this begs the question about your intentions to investigate isolation of the other components, something I've explored with audible improvements using very cheap rubber feet. I can't wait.
Lastly, love your dry humour peppered insights why else did I buy the SMS 200 Ultra Neo...
Take care,
Paul
Great Video.
The financial committee blocked me from the podiums but passed the motion to purchase the iso Acustics Gaia, I’m
Very pleased with them.
A review is due soon.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel awesome 😎
unfortunately the iso acoustic gaia's are nowhere near as good as the towns and podiums they only isolate down to I believe 20 HZ the podiums isolate down to three Hertz so you're still getting the Earth vibration shaking your speakers which is constant.
Thank you for this review sir. First heard about this product (or at least the theory it's based on) about 5 years ago. This is the first review of seen of these.
My pleasure
Great video as always Hans. And thanks for the tips. Be well.
My pleasure
Very informative, Hans, thank you. No doubt about it - that Aesthetics Committee has ultimate power, although I am glad to hear that this power has been used so infrequently in your case🙂😉👍
Mooie upgrade en leuk om weer eens een 'andere' review te zien dan DAC's, streamers, MQA en time smearing.
I had not heard that Max had died, that is very sad news indeed. I've always thought his ideas and designs were hugely under-appreciated and underrated. I met him several times, the most memorable being back in 2000 when I picked up my Rock II (ETA >> correction; it's an orginal Elite Rock - I've made that mistake before and I just don't know why I keep doing it) from his home after a bearing refresh - he invited me in to spend a couple of hours listening to his super-tweetered system (over glass of nice Chilean Merlot), both his Rock Reference and re-worked Pioneer 747 SACD/DVD-A player providing the source. What I heard rocked my world, particularly with regard to extended in-room frequency response via the super-tweeters.
Thanks I liked this video, as it expanded my mind by discussing something completely new: the impact of mini earthquakes. And now a little humour >> For me I found the biggest sound quality improvement came after I asked my local coal mine to dig the coal with gold plated rhodium shovels. This leads to more delicate audiophile shaped coal blocks, which when burned at the power station, translated into a tighter bass whilst adding a warmer mid-range from the microscopic gold residue left along the cut coal surfaces. The great thing is all my neighbours ae now amazed at the leap on their sound quality, even without knowing the reason. :D
The result of the podium is shocking :-0
Great tutorial, helped me greatly. Thanks
Great to hear!
My first system of 1979 was in a room close to heavy traffic. I placed the National Panasonic SB-39 speakers on thermal insulation tubing, two tubes horizontally under each speaker to absorb vibrations. A somewhat less sophisticated solution and less perfect, but at $1 per speaker it did its job.
I just love your dry humour. My aesthetics committee is not easily fooled or persuaded!
👍🏼
i put some of the bars under my subwoofers to avoid annoying the people downstairs and they were so a successful i got them for my speakers and the benefits for those was just as impressive....one of those rare products that looks like snake oil but isn't.
Last year I had Max build me a custom pair of platforms for my speakers and for set up I was just told to simply make sure no part of the platform was touching /in contact with the floor and to confirm by moving a knife or other flat object underneath all around. He also said to then test to make sure the speakers are softly rocking back and forth. That’s it.
A big fan, I love all your videos. I'm here to make you jealous.
Yes it works very very well
Cool, thanks
Hey Hans, as usual I appreciate your content. You addressed a few problems with resonances very well but you forgot to mention that this is a trade-off. You gain at staging and fine high frequency detail, that is true, but you lose dynamics. Even the improvement in the bass might be better in your room I don't doubt that but it is not better in general. When you care about resonances then I highly recommend to dig deeper into the work of Touraj Moghaddam (the founder of Roksan) and you should have a look at his speaker design the "Darius" (not a particularly excellent speaker but very interesting when it comes to resonances and absorption) maybe you want to also have a look at Christian Yvons work for Goldmund, especially the "Apologue"
There is one more thing that I would like to mention, and that is the use of springs. Springs have undoubtably the advantage that they very easily lower the resonance frequency below 10Hz, but they have the difficulty that they are not silent while working. When you compress springs, they themselves generate noise (resonances). I admit that in case of a speaker it is not really worth mentioning, but in record players you can spot the difference between a steel spring and i.e. rubber spring very easily.
As always, an excellent presentation. A side-note might be how this applies to isolating a small audio component. As you explained, the LF limit of an isolator is determined by its deflection. For reference, large HVAC units, producing vibration at very low frequencies are usually installed on springs. The deflection required here is on the order of an inch or so. Obviously, you need a lot of weight to achieve this. A large speaker, as you demonstrated, can be isolated using something like the Townsend podium. But a typical audio device just doesn’t weigh enough. Can a rubber foot under a 5 pound box possibly have enough elasticity to do anything beneficial? I’d like to hear from anyone who’s found a product or material to use.
All in due time
Interesting review! Maybe you should try Isoacoustics GAIA feet, it is not as free floating as this podium, but I am confident it will pass the aesthetics committee!
Me too Gaia Ii, even my girlfriend likes them.
How about going a review of moongel pads between speakers and their stands. These are jelly like pads which provide an amazing decoupling and for less than £20. Buchardt use these. Worth a look I feel.
Since we now have a product to deal with background seismic activity, what do we do about Schumann Resonance?
Keep it sync’ed😂
Have you reviewed any component vibration isolation systems too please? I had a look through your back catalogue and couldn’t see any
At 5 pm CET a review of Townshend isolators
I’ve watched, listened to and read multiple reviews and opinions as to whether speakers should be coupled to the floor, or, decoupled from the floor. There is much disagreement on this topic.
I purchased a pair of these podiums for my large floor standers. I was extremely dubious. A heck of a lot of money, for what is effectively a plank of metal and 4 springs!
Set up was relatively simple, with the most difficult thing being lifting my 103LB 55 inch tall speakers into place with no help. I have to say, that the effort and investment is worth it. A noteworthy improvement in definition and soundstage. The aesthetics committee however were not impressed. She remarked ‘it looks like your speakers have put on a pair of industrial work boots and are trying to make a run for it, out of our living room door’! I know not what her reaction would have been, had I have told her the price. Anyway, they haven’t walked out of the door, as she would have wishedd. She and I still communicate, share the same living space and more importantly, share the sane bed.
Whilst I’m a convert, I now am firmly in the camp that favours decoupling your speakers from the floor, reducing cabinet resonances and reducing transmition of floor vibrations, I still adhere to the advice of Rel, and have my Rel subs firmly coupled to the floor. They have down-firing drivers which utilise the floor to help evenly distribute the bass! The podiums do an excellent job of preventing that sub-bass influence the floor standers. It’s a win win scenario.
Keep up the good work Hans and most of all, enjoy the music.
Thanks for sharing
Q+
Coupling subs to the floor does kind of make sense - there are systems available (and used in some venues, cinemas/theatres) that actually excite the floor directly for a literally visceral experience.
@@EliteRock 👍👍
@@howardskeivys4184 Thanks! I should add that I've experimented with sub isolation and for _music_ I ultimately preferred it. I raised the sub off the floor on a sturdy platform (as part of 'room tuning') a little way out from the wall then had a barely inflated 'fat' mountain bike inner-tube on it with a cut-down paving slab on top of that, the sub then coupled to the slab with pieces of 'black tak' (ETA >> the overall 'Q' ended up well into single-digit Hz). Bass (or rather, electric bass guitar) has always been absolutely crucial to me ever since my ears first pricked up to Led Zep aged 11, and that arangement delivered bass lines so clearly and coherently, down to the open B (c.32 Hz fundamental IIRC) on Anthony Jackson's 'contrabass' for e.g., I'd never go back. That's different to the reasoning behind suspending the stereo pair of course, but just FYI.
Just a thought: should hi-fi racks be coupled to the floor with spikes, or decoupled? Spikes are the standard approach...could this be less than ideal? I suspect that component isolation takes care of this issue.
In my opinion spikes only serve their purpose on a carpet, stabilising the rack. On a solid floor they have no purpose, although there are many that think different. Putting dampers on the rack feet would be lovely but also costly. Especially since they have to be designed for the weight of the filled rack.
the prices can get even higher than that John told me that a guy with a pair of Magicos that were like 350 lb each paid $8,000 for a pair of podiums.
I live at the coast and you can feel the waves in the suspended floor, sometimes. Also a roughly 33Hz quiet tone from a pumping station along the coast. Then the odd bus seems to stop for a couple of minutes just making vibrations!
It's a noisy old world! You sound like a perfect candidate to benefit from the podiums.
Thks for the review...but wonder how they compare to the IsoAcoustics GAIA?
A review is due soon.
Arr the minister for all things household a very powerful entity indeed. You know what they say Hans happy wife happy life.
Wise words
Thanks for this very nice video Hans, usually I consider this as snake oil but you convince me the opposite. I have the GoldenEar Triton Reference meaning I need the number 4 option, costing almost as must as the speakers them self. How do you level after complete installation because of the od shape off the speakers?
I think you better ask that to the manufacturer or distributor, they likely have experience with a wider range of loudspeakers than I have.
that's what the knobs on top are for, you put a little level on top of your speakers and you adjust them in pairs, either left side right side or front ones or back ones.
Hi Hans
A cheaper way into the Townsend seismic world are the pods
I use the Townsend seismic pods under everything I can afford
You can get away with 3 under lighter bits of equipment - 2 under dacs - chord cutest
I think they are brilliant !
Surprisingly they had a big effect under my Audioquest Niagra - who would have thought ?
Get them and experiment - and nobody notices them
I use the Gaia isolation pods for my speakers
They are very good - look classy and around £1000.00 for the biggest ones are much cheaper than the podiums - don’t know what’s better as I haven’t been able to swop back and fore
@@albiepalbie5040 all the people that have tried both said the isoacoustic gaia's are very good but the Townsend podiums are in a total different League better.
I wouldn’t say different league but Townhends are better
@@chrisrichards2827 Hi Chris
My loudspeakers are too tall to put on any Townsend pods so I have them on the Gaias which are very good
Everything else I’ve got on the pods - bigger ones than the recommended weights for the particular piece of equipments weight - with heavy weights added on top of the equipment
It doesn’t look good !
But sounds amazing - great rhythmic control - solid and ethereal at the same time
Pianos are the litmus test
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Hi Hans
The flexibility and immediate noticeable improvement with anything the Townsend pods are put under is indisputable I think
Bombshell after Bombshell, each week, I like them.
Audio Physic makes pucks for you speakers that uses magnets to float the speakers. I believe they create a air gap total decoupling. Btw I’ve sold my Scorpio and now have Audio Physic Caldera 3.
Oops, almost forgot. Thanks, I'll see if I can include them in my survey too.
Audio Physic : VCF V Magnetic plus Speaker Set - looks like a better technology!
You might want to try putting some caps on to hide the black knobs although I feel it is the whole design that looks industrial (no effort was made by Townshend Audio to disguise this) so it might be a wasted effort. It might actually be a better idea to have a custom horseshoe-shaped box built with a finish matching the loudspeakers to hide the whole base. But I'm afraid that, once a decision has been made, it's best to cut your losses and just dream on (or wait in case Townshend Audio produces something more household-friendly.)
Another approach I just thought of is to try the Seismic bars instead. They are the precursors of the podiums and, to a large degree, the same thing, sans industrial-looking knobs. In fact they just look like the normal loudspeaker feet. One distinctive advantage of the bars vs. the podiums is that the bars have adjustable length and a pair is used per loudspeaker so they offer great freedom of placement and can be adjusted to protrude very little. Both of these attributes help make them less obtrusive and visually objectionable.
Being second hand, they are of course much cheaper.
.
Aesthetics committee!! Love it. Those damned bureaucrats lol. Perhaps a comparison to the isoacoustics feet are in order?
All in due time
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I notice the Townshend seismic pods have a thread in the top - could you not fit this directly to the base of your speakers, bypassing both the podium platforms and the aesthetics committee in one swoop? By the way I have a DIY version that does something like the podiums and the results (on a wooden suspended floor) are excellent, and just as you describe - cleaner, tighter bass and (most surprisingly) a better soundstage.
Hi Hans, maybe a set of ISO Acoustic Gaia’s would get approval from the committee? Rich
We’ll see. A review is due soon.
4:41 I don't see a link to a paper in the notes.
There's something to be said about this idea's success since they have introduced a version for pianos: surely they wouldn't have taken such a bold step if it weren't!
Sorry, this is the link: townshendaudio.com/PDF/Earthquakes%20on%20Hi%20Fi.pdf
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Thank you for this.
I think there are some logical flaws in the arguments given in there. First of all, to properly examine the claims, the sound reaching the ears of the listener, the listener and the speaker must be considered in a frame of reference. Secondly, we need to establish the level of decoupling of the speaker and the listener's ears from the floor. For the loudspeaker, this is determined by the method of support. For the ears, these are rigidly coupled to the cranium and that, in turn, is elastically (?) coupled to the spine. The spine itself is a series of rigid cylindre sections coupled via elastic (?) rings etc. all the way to the pelvis which is somewhat coupled to the seat. When the earthquake happens, all the objects above are in the same accelerated frame of reference. Is the air included in that frame of reference? One could argue that the layer of air in the vicinity of these objects certainly is, growing increasingly decoupled through in-between layers of air until we reach the middle of the distance between the ear and the speaker.
Now, the mechanics of accelerated frames cannot be analysed sufficiently in a couple of sentences,
but here are two simple facts to consider:
a) We can hear an earthquake, if it's sufficiently powerful, on account of the ground, all the buildings, walls etc. vibrating because of it. So, taking the ground for example as our frame of reference, the walls and floor of our room will be vibrating in reference to our ear because our skeletal system and soft tissue affords us a degree of decoupling from the floor and the air in the room is certainly coupled to both the walls and our ear.
b) We can draw a parallel with fact a in the case of sound coming from the speaker in a room at rest: it's a case of an earthquake only taking place in the speaker driver, setting both the cone and the speaker in motion, both decoupled from each other and our ear. Again, the coupled air mass does the trick (and we can hear the very local earthquake).
Let's then come to the case of earthquakes we cannot hear. The two facts above still hold but this time the levels of vibration are too low for our ear to pick. But then, the question arises: if the vibration of the speaker cone is too low to pick in the case that no signal is received by the speaker (the speaker cone only being set in motion by the earthquake), why would it matter to our perception of a signal being replayed in the case of such a signal is received (in addition of the speaker cone motion due to the earthquake)?
The fundamental assumptions here are that these two vibrations (i.e. from the signal and the earthquake) take place on the same axis (from the centre of the cone to our ear - let's call it parallel to the floor) and they only add (no other intermodulation occurs between them). Secondly, surely if the earthquake were borderline inaudible, due to fact a above, if any sound because of it were heard, that would be from the four walls, ceiling and floor (which combined have a much larger area than the speaker cone) and would certainly swamp any sound due to the earthquake coming from the speaker cone by at least two-three orders of magnitude (that is more than 20db).
The only coditiion where I could see these claims to merit value is when the earthquake creates a mode of room (floor) vibration, vertically to the listener ear-speaker cone axis, where the listener's position is (an odd multiple of) a quarter of a wavelength (of the earthquake wave) away from the loudspeaker position. That would then create a situation where the speaker cone obtains an angular moment of inertia with respect to the ear of the listener. That effect would take some space to analyse and quantify. The direct analogue to this one can easily imagine (admittedly a very exaggerated one) is that of listening to a stationary police car siren while riding up and down on a see-saw or a swing.
It would be perhaps more accurate to say, in this last situation, that the top of the loudspeaker generates a sound wave due to this particular earthquake-induced vibration mode. But again , the same counter-argument as above can be made for this case due to fact a: this sound wave would be swamped by the sound waves coming from the floor or ceiling (this time only one-two order of magnitude larger on account that the walls should be excluded).
[Note on sound db given above: db (spl) = 10log(P/Pref), so 10log100 = 20, 10log1000 = 30, etc.]
In my view, the benefits of the decoupling offered by the Townshend base are simply that: decoupling of the loudspeaker from the floor, essentially not allowing the floor and walls to become extensions of the loudspeaker enclosure. The direct analogue here is obvious: consider an harp and a piano and draw parallels between the string and the speaker cone and between the soundboard and the floor.
Those damn earthquakes, always happen on the best part of the song!
Depends on where you live😁
I would of liked to see your speakers on them in your room as part of the review.
There are sufficient photos on their site. Lighting in my living is a problem for photography.
@The Hans Beekhuyzen Channel fair enough, though it would be more interesting with different shots from time to time though.
Surely Hans is joking about speakers picking up ambient tectonic vibrations. However it is not April 1... Presumably isolation is for speaker reverberance and not micro earthquakes...?
I presume you have tested than too?
Hans I'm not for a minute doubting what you hear or that the intervention is effective. However I am doubting the hypothesis that the benefit comes from isolation from ambient environmental vibration transmitted through the floor. That would be surprising indeed.
Hello Hans,
I find your reviews very informative.
But I am not sure why you are presenting the idea that we have to find the barometric center of gravity of our speakers before mounting them onto the Seismic Podiums.
I have the Podiums. I use them under my Cube Audio F8 Nenuphar Minis. The Minis fit nicely onto the Podiums. There is only one way to do it and they are a perfect fit. There is no appreciable room to move them forward or back. They are perfectly centered.
So, in this scenario , what difference does the barometric center of the speaker make?
If the speakers weigh more in the front than they do in the back that's going to be true no matter where you center them on the Podiums. Even if it were possible to move them back a centimeter or so the front springs would always have to bear more weight than the back springs.
If you've chosen the correct Podium for the weight of the speaker... meaning a speaker whose weight falls anywhere from the beginning to the middle of the total weight range of the Podium... then the springs should be able to handle much more weight than your speaker places on them.
If, on the other hand, your speaker's weight falls very close to the high end limit of the Podium's weight range, then the speaker's weight distribution might be problematic... and perhaps a Podium that handles more weight should be chosen because unless the area of the base of the speaker is considerably smaller than the area of the platform of the Podium there isn't going to be enough room to make positioning adjustments.
I would appreciate your thoughts, Hans. If I am making a judgement area please let me know.
I followed the manufacturer's and distributors's instructions
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I understand. But do you see my point about positioning speakers on the Podiums and how there is little to no room for making adjustments?
By the way, I also like your sense of humor.
The wisdom of a married man😂👍
😂
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel
Lol I am literally seeing if she will like/ use or veto the Linn app at the moment… keep you posted
Negative WAF.
well I guess my wife is better than yours Hans because my system is in my living room and my wife actually likes the look of the podiums don't ask to trade wives cuz I say forget it LOL
Congrats 😁
you should have told your wife not to look down and then she wouldn't notice them LOL