#2 Tesla's Secret Sauce // Maxwell Dry Battery Electrode
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ค. 2024
- At Battery Day, Elon Musk said that Tesla had a secret sauce that they weren't going to talk about. For me, part of Tesla's Secret Sauce is the Maxwell Dry Battery Electrode (aka DBE). DBE results in higher energy density, higher power density, better cohesion and adhesion (electrode durability), and reduced heat generation. This is the second video in my Lithium Mine to Battery Line videos series.
DBE Dissertation Paper: scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/view...
Peter Morain of Glacier Design: pmorain@gmail.com for inquiries
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Twitter: / limitingthe
Timeline
0:00 Introduction
0:55 DBE Refresher & Predictions
2:39 The Secret Sauce
4:00 Wet Slurry in Detail
6:04 DBE in Detail
7:16 Inactive/Active Ratios
9:14 Resistance/Heat/Power
10:50 Cathode Thickness
13:23 Tesla's Ruthless Cost Focus
14:16 Cycle Life
15:29 Summary
#BatteryInvestorDay #NotSellingAShareBefore10000 #BattChat #BatteryTwitter
Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
This is the kind of content you leave the ads running for.
Do content creators only make money if the entire ad is watched?
@@pwallmann no, but they make less if you skip them.
@@ilotitto does it help if I just click on the ad and then close it and skip?
@@ilotitto thanks, i'll make a point of letting them play through.
@@superbud333 is the same deal, if you let it run is more money for the creator
DBE reduces production time, environmental impact, floor area and capital expenditure, improves cycle life, makes a stronger battery.
I suspect that it also enables tabless design and indirectly larger cells.
It's no wonder Elon was excited about Battery Day.
Thanks for your research really helps to understand the new processes!
Tesla only reduced battery pack installed price by one-half. The "Big Boys" (Ford, Chevy, Fiat / Chrysler) imply that they can do that in their sleep. I'm not sure. I'm not sure that talk makes can (do).
@@artsnow8872 If the big boys can cut battery cost by half in their sleep, then they had best get on with it. Because, if they don't, they will go bankrupt, and I mean soon.
If half of this is correct it makes Maxwell cheap at twice the price.
DBE contains Teflon so I am not so sure about low environmental impact.
Elon must either love you, for working this out or hate you, for spilling the secrete sauce. Either way, he must admire your tenacity and detail.
Can not wait for this sweet, sweet Nerdgasm of info
Edit: Holy crap. Nerdgasm achieved. This is going to take a few times through to digest. Amazing work 🔥
😂
Phase officially coined!
Or even "phrase"!
You are so right, Jordan's understanding of what Tesla is working on is a great help for us finance types. Wish I had paid more attention in chemistry class in HS.
I dont mean to be offtopic but does any of you know of a trick to log back into an Instagram account?
I stupidly forgot the login password. I would love any tips you can give me.
9:18 One with the electron Forces you must be.
(Thank you for another great video, Jordan!)
heheheh, sometimes I just need to keep myself entertained while grinding through these 😁
Jeff Dahn called, wants his research back!
LOL, it's about like that eh?
lol
Haven't even started to watch thank you thank you thank you been waiting forever Jordan you the man
Great video, as always.
To add about the dry process, they use PVDF as binder, common and well known in the electrode industry. PVDF has melt point of about 177C celsius. They use an electrostatic gun to first coat the electrode and the hot roll process is there for 2 reasons, increasing the density of the electrode and activate the thermal effect of PVDF. On this research paper (dr Ludwig) they use bottom roller of 190C & upper roller at 175C celsius (225 cm/min) to activate PVDF binding effect :)
edit: melting point of PVDF 177 not 200C celsius
Good info. Now, let's ask Tesla. Tesla? Tesla? Tesla! (No answer.)
(You can edit by clicking on those three dots to the right, and then, make your changes.)
@@artsnow8872 That's the Tesla manufacturing process, don't be mean
Don't want to go too far into the numbers before the next video, but.…
If we assume the same jellyroll thickness in 2270 and 4680, and that the open core is similar diameter, I calculate about 3.9 times the length, 5 times the surface area of jellyroll, so 5 times the energy storage.
Therefore, assuming the DBE line can reach 20m/ min, (4x) it can feed that rate.
That would mean the same number of "cans" leaving the plant yields 5x energy.
Then, there are no tabs to weld (Assuming the Tabless system is applied to the anode and cathode)
If that means the line runs faster by 40%, a 7x factory yield might be possible even without DBE improving performance......?
I think the tabless design is implemented by laser cutting the copper foil that the anode and cathode are deposited on, at least that's what I gathered from the presentation, so definitely no tabs to weld
@@LINKedup101 I'm not sure about laser cutting... Laser always sounds fancy, but it could leave a burr, could oxidize the edge. at 20 m/min a mechanical cut will do the job IMHO.
@@oliverwunsch1743 that's what Elon said they're doing in the Battery Day presentation from what I remember
@@LINKedup101 OK... I don't try to argue Elon ;-)
@@LINKedup101
Who mentioned welding (in this process)? Not me.
This is next level of next level presentations. Been longing for this to watch!
Diving deep into the imoact of every single change annonced at the battery level is phenomenal!
I think that many if those changes need to be looked at in the context of some or all of the other changes.
For example the DBE could be optimized for energy density as heat would be far less of a factor due to the tabless electrode design, thus improving power density as well.
Hi Jordan, great graphics to explain DBE multiple benefit. Really looking forward to next video on tabless cell design. Eamon
Damn, that is the content I want to see on my TH-cam. I hope you can interview more battery experts!
Thanks
Me too buddy!
@@thelimitingfactor Please interview Prof. Yi Cui on this:
www.nature.com/articles/s41560-020-00702-8
Here's his earlier work:
www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/how-build-better-battery-through-nanotechnology
@@MrAlRats watch my Soteria interview on the limiting factor 2
@@thelimitingfactorThere is a limiting factor 2? I WAS UNAWARE!!!
@@elektrotehnik94 Yes I'm sneaky, lol
You have the best videos on TH-cam explaining this stuff. Thanks for doing so much research and sharing with all of us nerds.
Spitting out deep knowledge as usual. I really appreciate your contribution to the community Jordan. Fantastic content as usual!
Thanks, very informative, as always. To a native English speaker, your North American English accent is strong, but it is much easier to understand than many.
Ruthless indeed! Good job Jordan! Well researched well documented and lucid outlook.
Love the way you logically step by step build your presentation.
This is the perfect level of science info for me, cheers man
Jordan: Great video! Your videos are incredibly informative and interesting! I look forward to all the deep dives on this battery tech!
I had to pause/skip backwards so much in this video, I think it ended up being over 30 minutes long. So much great information, excellent work!
If I might make a suggestion, you had the various subjects broken out in the timeline, but transitioned between them with barely a pause. Add a header slide and some music to que our spinning brains that the subject is changing... Other content creators would make a 30 minute video out of this, you have some seconds to spare:)
😁 I am the mind blaster, lol
I like the idea... my mind absolutely feels challenged trying to keep up with the level of science going on here :D (I normally don't have that problem, to give context ^^)
Great job diving deeper into the DBE secret sauce Jordan! Such good stuff.
When you have enough support to quit your day job and move to TH-cam full time, you are going to crush it. Is your employer concerned? Do they read your TH-cam comments? They should pony up a big raise to keep you for a while longer :)
😂😂😂
Seems like the thicker cathode might be a good option for the stationary storage, energy density would be a much higher priority and the issues with heat and thus charge and discharge issues could be addressed by a bigger heat management system wich is a much better tradeoff in a stationary application.
Energy density is more important for cars than in stationary storage. Cars need to be as light as possible because the car is carrying the battery. Stationary storage can afford inefficiency.
Edit: Or is that what you are saying? It isn't clear.
@@NateDecker1982 point I'm making is that the thicker cathode would be less of a trade-off in a stationary application. This is because the problems it causes, more heat build-up wich leads to reduced charging and discharging rates can be offset by a bigger and beefier cooling system which is much less of a trade-off in a stationary application. This way the gaines in energy density at the battery level aren't lost at the Pack level and the losses in power density are offset buy the bigger more efficient cooling system essentially meaning that the engineer gets to have his cake and eat it too.
@@mrspeigle1 More importantly, for stationary storage the charging / discharging rates are low (btw, the charging rate relates to the power of a cell), so yes, stationary storage systems need to be high-energy but not-too-high power.
That was another great one, Jordan! Very interesting stuff. Thank you very much for your work. Much appreciated.
My pleasure Lars!
This is great for New Students about battery tech.
Amazing video, quite in depth and nice graphics!
Awesome video! Live the deep dive. On my way to patreon to support your work. Thanks
We have waited a Long time for these videos. I hope the next one will come sooner 😉 but for now my head exploder enough. Thanks for the great detailed topics.
It is great that the channel has friends that can make an awesome animation.
Awesome research and analysis
Thanks for the quality content
We missed you dearly Jordan... Nice having you back 👍🍻🍾
Another well researched report. Thank you.
As always Jordan, another fantastic video. DBE allows fast fabrication on a much lower footprint. Just those taken together would give you 20-50x volume per square foot increase.
This is an awesome technical summary. Thanks!
Thank you for explaining your research... Can't wait for your next video ☺️
Thanks, Jordan! Excellent breakdown as always.
Very interesting. Thanks Jordan!
Finally, I waited so hard for that video!
Thanks Jordan, another fascinating video.
You empower my day, thanks!
Great video. Eagerly looking for next videos
A good one to watch after this one is "Revolutions aren't Easy"
Thank you for the hard work
Nice detail, appreciated
That graphic @4:00 was amazing, like watching Avatar
Excellent! Thank you. I didn't quite follow it all but it was still very interesting.
Thanks, Jordan, very insightful update with many things I had no idea about! Of course I shared on Twitter!
Thanks man! And you're most welcome!
Fantastic presentation
What quality content! Well done 👍
Awesome video once again but I’ll have to watch it a few times to get everything uploaded 😁
Par for the course! lol Even I rewatch them a few times after published.
DBE implementation shown in the Tesla B-roll looks like photocopier / laser printer technology. An electrostatic transfer of pigment encapsulated in fine polymer particles (toner) that are then fused to the substrate by being passed through heated rollers.
Maybe some of the engineers and scientists who understand this process best are not in the battery chemistry field, but in the electrophotography sector.
@rogerstarkey has been big on this!
Yes that is really old technology too. Xerox was doing it nearly 50 years ago :).
FINALLY!! lol ... Thx for the video JG ... I have been anxiously awaiting your next episode ... tonight (after an impressive gain in Nano One and TSLA) I will enjoy a nice bottle of wine and "The Limiting Factor" ... Cant wait!!
HAHAHA Judging by the comments clearly I was not the only one!!
LOL! Glad to hear it 😀👏👏👏
I hope you’re asking questions on investor day. Great video
Much appreciated Jordan, keep it up mate.
Been waiting all day to finish work and watch this. Awesome stuff as always. Any target dates for the next video?
On about a 2 week cadence I think
Great work Jordan
Nice one mate, I've been waiting for your input ;-)
You're most welcome Vincent!
Every time I see your logo it reminds me of the fps game Quake :) Can't unsee it anymore
lol, or monster energy or halo
Thank you so much doing the hard work for us!
You're most welcome Mr. Wolf!
Great videos! Can really see how EV batteries have a lot of room for improvement since existing Li-Ion was developed for small short life consumer items. Kind of reminds me of the early airplanes when they were wood & fabric and the Navy said they could never be a threat to their Battleships (isn't that what the ICE guys are saying?)
Great video!!! Thank you.
Nice job, thanks.
very well presented
Fun fact.
Re the potential DBE speed
If anyone has a big photocopier in their office (big!) That runs at 110 A4 (LT) copies per minute (2 per second)
That's what 25m per minute looks like.
We're talking big print room style copiers here! (Trust me!)
That's a WOW from me!
What's interesting is that the research refers to the dry electrode process as 'printing' rather than 'coating', you're totally on the money
@@thelimitingfactor
First stage of a photocopier/ printer "development" process.
A thermoplastic/ carbon based power, agitated to induce "triboelectric" charge (balloon on jumper!) Which attracts it to an iron based carrier (tiny spherical iron particles)
That mixture sticks to a rotating magnetised roller and is metered to a specific thickness by a metal blade.........
(Stuff happens... I can continue if anyone's interested, it's relevant)
It seems inconceivable (to me) that no company in the copier/ printer industry coughpanasonickyoceracough has considered the possibility of using the process as the first stage of coating?
Maybe there really IS a lack of first principles "joined up thinking"?
@@thelimitingfactor
Strangely
I think of "printing" as a wet process. I started working on lithographic "printers".
Perhaps more strangely, they were *disrupted* (literally, 2 years!) by dry process photocopiers (!)
@@thelimitingfactor
1:32:45
Drew... "Elastic, ion conducting polymer coating"
Me "🤔"
@@thelimitingfactor
Also.
1:33:35
Drew "let's talk cathodes"
Me "IRON... 600Wh/kg????" 😳
after looking at the spinning cathode for so long, the graph afterwards just kept spinning too. pretty cool to see some random visual effect where u don't expect it.
Wow,great content,thanks
Wonderful video
Thanks, Jordan! Looks like the "glass battery" using salt is out... Still, there seems to be room for research in this direction!
My day just got much better
🤜🤛🔥🤠
OMG OMG OMG! The next video is here!
Haven't see it yet, but let's go, one more deep dive into this... 👍
Love the animations on binder coating on the active particles! I think the formulation recipe is now much improved in Industry applications 90/5/5 is outdated unless new materials are in the play. Majority are either 94/3/3 or 96/2/2
You're totally right! Ankit just pointed me to a thread on the Slack channel. I feel better knowing that I wasn't the only other person confused about this. It sounds like 94/3/3 is pretty stable and some were saying 96/2/2 for high energy applications, but 98/1/1 sounds like it starts hitting limits. I was also suprised to find out that the binder does offer some decent conductivity. Just not nearly as high as the carbon.
Great video!
Here's hoping that these tech floods down to the normal consumer battery markets.
Oil & utilities companies really need a kick on the behind. They should have hedged by massively investing in battery tech.
Great information
I'm here for the good shit! Thank you for all the detailed work.
lol
I did enjoy this video.
Sweet Jesus! Excellent material! Thank you! :)
Hey Jordan great video as usual. DBE is a big thing. I'm still hungry for more details on what that secret binder is as "thermoplastic" Is quite vague. But I'll do my homework 😉
12:40 “Sick electrodes are [where it’s at]”. But Dual Motor Model Y has totally sick performance without DBE.
Y + DBE + 4680 = Giga-Sick!
AMAZING!
I liked it before the at ended. These videos really hit the battery itch.
So to summarize, Tesla is killing it with these new cells..😂🔋☀️😛🔋
Straight up!
Great job Jordan...
Nice to see you’ve consulted with Yoda..🚀⚡️🔋☀️😂🔋⚡️🚀🔋☀️😂🚀🔋
Always!
You are right about the hype lol, just a few days ago there was a quantumscape break thru on solid state batteries. After watching this video I am glad I went all in on Tesla at about $400 after battery day.
Every time I hear your sultry tones, I know TSLA stock is going to higher. Cheers Jordan!
lmao, thanks Isaac
Bought 10 and am up 1k on those 10 wooop
This is the first time I’ve seen Jeff, I am an electrical engineer, I really enjoyed this presentation will watch it again next time while not cooking, kudos to the graphical Illustrations!
Thank you!
There we go!
Another episode! 😀
You need to add an applause button to your channel
Amaizing video amaizing
Jordan, there’s an extra slash or exponent on the ordinates units (Discharge capacity) on the graph “Cathode Thickness & Rate Performance” at 11:51. Probably from the source. Should be either (mah/g) or (mah . g-1).
Your videos are so good and interesting, but please if possible can you do a summary in the end of videos? :-)
So now we get a little insight into why it is so difficult to nail the process. First, many of those graphs are on log scales. So very small variations in process tweaks makes for large variations in performance. So, for example, roller separation is undoubtedly a critical factor. When microns matter everything from feed rate to viscosity to temperature needs to be super tightly controlled. Not just in the machine but things like the temperature of the roll as it is being fed, probably even the malleability of the metalic sub-straight. That means reliable production processes before the materials even get to the Tesla factory. These are the kinds of things that are relatively easily tweaked in pilot production but at terawatt scale must be right from the get go.
Tesla has bought a battery production design company in Germany. They will, probably, design such a production line for Tesla's new 4680 battery. Maxwell Company would, then, design and build the necessary equipment for the production. These 4680 battery production lines may be part of All the Giga-factories. Panasonic will, still, produce the older 21650 battery cells at Giga-Nevada for two or three years -- then, who knows.
It would interesting to contrast and compare the Telsa and Panasonic battery factories.
Thanks
You have got to do a video on the Hummer battery! It's pretty different
Well Done ! I am getting my money's worth for my Patreon support!
I think that knowing that innovation is occurring in both the cell and in the manufacturing process is enough for most people to be assured that Tesla is on the right track, and that means there will be progress in reducing costs. And that means the $25,000 Tesla EV will become a huge seller, TSLA stock will go up, and Tesla will be ahead of the pack and stay successful. Tera Texas will have plenty of room to build a plant that will spit out cells like a machine gun, and the world will be able to wean itself from fossil fuels.
👍🤗
Wooooooooo hell yea so goooood