I've been listening to Glenn, Bob, Shelby & Kmele for 3 years now, and they all have my deepest respect. To listen to them constructively disagree and work through such important issues is truly a great lesson. This is how we move forward.
For some reason I really liked Kmele’s insight on feeling a right to being inspired with anyone in humanity and not just “people who may look like us”. I remember Glenn’s words of claiming inheritance of the great Russian writers like Tolstoy. And so in that vane, we all have a right to claim an element of pain and frustration at seeing the injustice to Clarence Thomas and to the poor inner city people bearing with the senseless violence. We should feel the pride and inheritance and the pain and anger of all the people of our land. We are in this boat together and if one aspect of those in our boat lags or destructs, we are in deep crap. This is the only boat we got….
@@deannaslamans9181 we can all take some strength from the great abolitionists of the past and the thousands who worked over hundreds of years to end slavery and racism and to bring us step by step closer to the perfect Union. All people in the US need to tap into the strength of and follow the example more of the great Americans who through their lives bore with dignity their challenges and worked to bring the US to a better place. We are so soft now. We need to toughen up and become more resilient and more determined to bear life’s individual injustices with more fervent resolve like so many millions of persons who transitioned our nation out of slavery into equality.
@@duppyshuman seems like the individualist view is nothing but self criticism, self development and personal responsibility. That is pure self criticism/. What criticism would you level at him. He seems to only want to produce personally and not shift any sort of blame or responsibility to “groups”.
@@swcordovaf I'll concede your point about him-to a certain degree. As admirable as those qualities are his list of problems at this point have become tired microscopic examination of Black leftist cliches to in my opinion attempt to breathe life into them. He kept breaking down and breaking down each one with no movement. The others views were grounded in lived experience having had to face undeniable hardship he and his generation have never faced. They "overcame" during a time when just complaining let alone taking action to end racial injustice could get you killed-and they expressed themselves with nuance. They genuinely listened and reflectively considered his statements as he did theirs. I do wish an older Left leaning person had been included.
The primary challenge of individual freedom is taking responsibility for your own feelings and actions, whatever the external circumstances (with whatever help is necessary). The second is to become classically educated enough to discern which things in society are structural barriers to EVERYONE's freedom, which can vary with ethnicity, gender, etc. but are largely grounded in the same thing--a patriarchal, zero-sum culture that values money over humanity--and find specific, detailed policies that can get through legislatures. In other words, a hard look at yourself and hard work to bring about incremental change, the only kind that doesn't cause worse backlash and destruction of what IS good in existing social institutions.
Foster's comments beginning at about 54:00, about what he called "unearned pride" and "collective achievement" really sums up this question of identity. Real self-esteem comes from personnel accomplishment. Group association can only do but so much, for a person. They still have to bring something of their own individuality, to the table. I would dare say, that the worst psychologically damaged individual, is likely the one who doesn't "succeed" in spite of having greater advantages, if they take this kind of competitive thinking to heart. Steele sounds like a "woke" - hip-hop-activist, with his perspective on the value of Black music. I don't know if there is a greater lover of Black, African, & music of the 'African Diaspora', than myself, but even I control my promotion of "Black Music". I certainly don't place it above other music forms, created by Africans and African descendent people, anywhere in the world. China and India likely make up the majority of the human population. They have their own traditional music. Have their people completely lost their appreciation of these music's? Are they not included in this assessment of music? They may even love reggae music more than R&B and Rap. Bob Marley is likely as well known around the world than is Tupac Shakur. Are any people, who they once were, given the power of mass media and social media? Modernity/technology is rapidly changing us all. We all have double or even multiple consciousness. We see ourselves as individuals, as well as members of the social units, we are a part of. Life is largely the act of regulating these different associations. Modernity has given our individual consciousness more "freedom". Woman and children/adolescents have been the greatest beneficiaries and victims respectively, of this freedom. I won't speak to Conservative male's perspective on this. Identity can't exist without "the other". Identity is often fostered/reinforced by emphasizing the contrast that exist between the subject group or individual, and 'The Other'. Modernity has increased the level of contact between people and groups. We have yet to evolve/mature enough emotionally, morally, and ethically, to be able to deal with our differences. African-Americans suffer this the worst, that is why even these conservative gentlemen don't agree on everything. They are grappling with the particularities of Black double/multiple consciousness. I say we suffer from this the most, because we have the most to lose or suffer greater consequences. Our identities - individual and group, have always been tenuous, having been separated from who we once were. Some of us likely see this as an advantage moving forward into a rapidly changing future. Our culture is young and has always been subjected to the powerful forces of modernity. It has been a blessing and a curse. Those among us who see themselves as gatekeepers of "The Culture" will likely soon find themselves being seen as irrelevant, at a much earlier age than us Boomers, they are so often critical of - sometimes rightfully so. I don't know if what I've said speaks to the "ethics of identity", but it sure is my reality of it.
Maybe you're new to this crowd and find it enlightening. I can understand that -- I've been there. Glenn Loury himself once called my writing "brilliant" and was "blown away" by my site. But these people are not what you think they are: They're not solving problems, they're serving a market. Endlessly talking about the same problems in the same old ways -- hasn't made a dent and never will. Like Black Lives Matter, they’re just pounding away at problems without any examination of the efficacy of their efforts. Also like BLM, they're actually making matters worse. I could explain that -- to anyone to willing to listen. But lemme enlighten you on how this game works: Purveyors of virtue make videos about listening to reason and following the facts -- and out comes the commentary of self-congratulations and hailing of high praise. Then I come along asking the kind of questions these people don't wanna hear -- and suddenly their "standards" go right out the window. In the 18 months of challenging people throughout these communities -- I've seen everything from "polite” dismissiveness to sheer savagery. In their bottomless contempt for correction, they are utterly devoid of desire to understand anything that isn’t self-evident in 60 seconds. Their behavior has not an atom of integrity, courtesy, curiosity, courage, decency: Or any virtue of any kind. In all that time, I've only seen a couple of people ask the key question I do: Is this working? Incredibly, it doesn't even seem to cross their minds. And what's worse -- no amount of explanation matters to them as to why it should. I’m sure it’s intoxicating to amass a following and feel like you’re making a difference. But I’m gonna weigh your impact partly as a reflection of your community: How people behave - not what they believe. If you can’t get that right, I don’t care how big your following gets - you’re taking this nation nowhere. Not in the right direction, anyway. Some of their work is enlightening. Pointless repetition is not. You wanna be enlightened? Try this on for size (google it and you'll see): "This Nation Needs a National Conversation - On How to Have Conversation"
I find myself thinking. There MUST be room for cultural and historical identity. At the same time, I 'think' (but I'm not sure) using black pride as a "weapon" is causing more damage for people than helping people. Perhaps using ANY identity as a weapon is generally suspect at best and destructive more often. I watch our leaders deliberately pit identity groups against each other to keep power. When our nation faces existential threats, there are individuals from across the board that VOLUNTEERS to keep freedom alive.
In the early 60s I was a toddler. The rythym and flow of this conversation with its build up of tension, crescendo, laughter, and resolution evoked warm, familiar feelings that I can trace back to when I was just learning language. My people came north from NOLA. The fellas, papa, uncles, dad would all get together and debate,I didnt understand the content, but there was a wonderful sense of security that everything was going to be alright. I hope many young brothers will watch.
I'm at 14:50 Shelby has been discoursing on identity vs the demands freedom makes on us. Blown away. This strikes me as essential understanding for everyone, not just the blacks he is addressing. 15:30 Shelby "identity is an avoidance of freedom ". Wow. I have to ponder that for a bit. Is he right? If so the implications are powerful.
He is down the road a ways trying to help us get to the heart of the issue and avoid some of the self deception a long the way that would distract us from real personal progress. Makes me wonder what else besides race we are using as excuses to not fully handle our freedoms, our choices and the accompanying consequences.
We have embraced “black identity” in various vernacular and labels since the 1960’s. We went from being colored (niggers to some), to black, then African American to now the more politically correct “people of color”. Why all these “changes” ? Trying to stay culturally relevant by focusing solely on superficial a label. That alone shows that we have no clue that”focusing “race” alone has never been the solution to all the problem we face in our community that Shelby points out. If we can ever let go of it, and focus on the real “elephants in the room”, we will see real progress, but sadly I don’t see that happening in the current cultural environment.
@@richardbicker640 I hesitantly try to speak for the titans of Steele and Foster but I would guess that they would say 1. Family structure 2. Educational preparation 3. Self discipline 4. Self determination 5. Sacrifice 6. Crime 7. Financial literacy. 8. Entrepreneurship. 9. Hope. 10. Moral/ethical development …. Stuff like that. Principles that uplift all people of all times in all cultures of all locations.
@@richardbicker640 are you stating that you don’t see how individuals acting along those 10 points is where the meat is vs focusing on race? A massive collection of individuals acting well as individuals along those 10 fronts isn’t where the greatest opportunity for improvement?
This is a fascinating conversation. I tune into these discussions a lot as a "white" father of biracial kids with a "black " mother, mainly to educate my approach to how to discuss race with our kids. Their mother is already a pretty tangled mix of European and native American ancestry that Louisiana bred. My daughters have wavy hair and a complexion that living in Arizona is defaulted to them being Hispanic. I've joked the most common "racism" they will experience is old latina grandmothers griping them for not speaking Spanish and disrespecting their heritage..... My wife's family do insist on making sure they are culturally aware of their blackness, and my parents educate them on their European heritage. Because the thing is as a "white American" my identity is also divided. My father is Irish, my mother is Dutch, I was conceived in Germany and born in the US a few months after they moved here. Growing up my parents would say "You're half Irish and half Dutch" to which I would reply "Well am I not also American? Hasn't this country had more effect on my upbringing than those that have some cultural effect thru you and we visit?" . So I would say I'm half American, 1/4 Irish and 1/4 Dutch. And when it comes to my kids... there is so much different in them genetically and culturally is sifting that out into these silos worth it? And after all these silos are pretty arbitrary, what does it mean to be Dutch, or Irish, or any other nationality? The modern nation states are pretty novel, we don't have to go back too far in history where Holland was just a Germanic region among many, or Ireland was a grouping of clans with some shared language(though not the same language) and island. If you go to those countries you still see the regional pride that is more important than national pride. I always kind of laugh at things like 23 and me giving people this blue print of who they are by nationality, because they aren't measuring it even based on something like you have absorbed things from the land in that region. It's based on shared genetics with people currently living in that part of the world that we have now labelled "Country A". So not only are we dealing with the somewhat arbitrary concept of current human regional boundaries, we are also somewhat believing that global human migration hasn't been a thing for millennia. The surname on my dutch side is French in origin so at some point that migration happened that we don't have a record of. This all has lead me to a view somewhat like Kmele. When my kids ask me am i white or am I black, I usually say well both, and neither, you're just you. They are what I imagine will be the norm a few hundred years from now when everyone is a light brown person and racial history becomes both to complex to track and pretty much unmeaningful....
I agree with much of what you say. It's also true that identities are often foisted on others and sometimes denied. Humans often like to wield identity as a sword against those they dislike. Class and caste have historically been used to enforce the rules of society to benefit those on top. It's the same for race and ethnicity. Humans try to ascribe generic attributes to people of certain groups whether that is valor or laziness, for example.
Thank you for this conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed the nuances of all sides, and the more it went on, the more I found myself drawn into the discussion as a silent participant.
What a great conversation! Why on earth this wasn’t a show on a national network is beyond me. I’ve not seen anything like this until I stumbled across Glenn Loury on You Tube.
A very enlightening and appreciated conversation from a young black man trying to understand how to bring material change to the community. These conversations are integral and these wise elders truly have our best interest!
“The collective action problem: how do you get people to pull together in the same direction on behalf of goals that none of them can achieve on their own requires some kind of narrative?” The million dollar question. A critical thinker will ask “by what standard and by whose authority is such narrative believed and proclaimed?”
Wow. A wonderful conversation indeed. A model for how we can converse and how we can choose to NOT polarize. Watching this has been a learning experience. Gives me hope. I say this as a lefty who is part of the progressive elite ( although far from the financial elite), and who does not relate to the progressive religious-like dogma we have been beaten down with for several years now.
Glenn Loury once called my writing "brilliant" and was "blown away" by my site and signed up. But he wasn't too keen on the truth when I took his hero to task (exactly like the people he's trying to convince). You strike me as someone who might be willing to listen though -- as you don't fit the mold. In an earlier reply, I speak to that model you mentioned. The model itself isn't the problem -- it's the narrow scope of the debate, which has ZERO chance of success in today’s trench warfare between armies of unreachables. At the very least, Loury-like communities should reasonably reflect the principles they preach. They do nothing of the kind -- and when it mattered most, neither did he. Following facts going in the direction you desire doesn't count -- anybody can that. As I mentioned earlier: I’m sure it’s intoxicating to amass a following and feel like you’re making a difference. But I’m gonna weigh your impact partly as a reflection of your community: How people behave - not what they believe. If you can’t get that right, I don’t care how big your following gets - you’re taking this nation nowhere. Not in the right direction, anyway "A model for how we can converse and how we can choose to NOT polarize." Well, we can do that -- right here, we can demonstrate how it's done. They posted a video-- you commented, and I come along say, "Wait a minute -- there's a much bigger picture here that nobody sees." If I came across the bit above, here's how I would respond (or something along these lines): ************************** That's interesting -- Loury called your writing 'brilliant" and was "blown away" by your site and signed up -- and you took his hero to task? What was the writing about? Who's his hero and why did you do that? What's the story here? And you support Loury's efforts but not his approach. I'd like to hear more about that and how you came to that conclusion. ************************** Here's your chance to deliver on your word. I invite you to google this and take the trail where it leads: "Glenn Loury was a Great Man - Until He Wasn’t" Thanks for your time!
@@mounteverestoftheobvious1182 Hi, I'd be happy to respond, but I'll be honest, I don't quite follow you. I'm probably being stupid, but besides the very reasonable point you make - that what we do is more important than what we say (which I agree with) - I'm not quite getting the whole gist of your discussion. Maybe because i'm not privy to the previous instances you seem to be referring to, or to how Loury has or hasn't embodied what he preaches. Or maybe that's way off. Sorry, just not quite following.
@@alexlazaridisf.7276 There's nothing to be sorry about, and you're certainly not being stupid (though I appreciate your grace & manners in trying to get some clarification). What would be stupid is if you were unclear but dead certain in your response (which is what I almost invariably get). As I say on the site: "Explaining America’s decline over decades of delight in the Gutter Games of Government - is as apples & oranges as it gets when compared to the transactional nature of news and social-media norms. Understanding how seemingly unrelated events impact one another takes time and effort to digest. It involves thinking ahead & looking back." This turned into a long reply -- but you're still not going to get it all (nor is it possible that you could on such overlapping matters of America's downfall). At the very least, I suspect someone like yourself will see why it's so complicated to explain these issues -- especially in a culture with the attention span of a child. Anyone who wants to understand -- will, but very few people are willing to put the time and effort in (or even have the courage and curiosity it takes to see what they don't want to). As you'll soon see, what I challenged Loury on is practically baked into his DNA. His hero is not the man that Loury and countless others believe him to be -- and I can prove it. Since blind belief in things that have no basis in reality is ruining this nation -- that's a pretty big deal (and disgraceful for Loury to look away from to protect what he believes). As I said to him: If you're not gonna look at evidence, you have no business anyone else to. There are many components involved in this story. But rather than read it and worry about not understanding it all -- just take one thing as a time and everything will fall into place. And there's no rush or expectations -- just take your time at your convenience. Did you google the "link" I provided at the end: "Glenn Loury was a Great Man - Until He Wasn’t"? Google has cracked down on sharing links (other than TH-cam), so I shared that text instead. I'll send a follow-up reply after this one to see if the links go through. In any case, "Glenn Loury was a Great Man - Until He Wasn’t" is an entry point into the story with Loury (and that post provides links to more details about my exchange with him). But before we even get into that, let's get to the root of how all this began in the first place (which my posts throughout the site all point to). 8 years ago, I wrote and produced the most exhaustive documentary ever done on the biggest and most costly lie in modern history: Iraq WMD. It's in 7 parts totally 2 hours and 40 minutes, but in this 5-minute excerpt alone -- I can put this lie in its place. As I say on the site: The rotor speed required to separate uranium isotopes doesn’t care who’s president. In order to maintain such speeds, the material properties of centrifuges are as critical as it gets. You don’t need to interview a world-renowned nuclear scientist to figure that out - but I like to be thorough: The WMD Delusion: Timeless Deceit by Democrats & Republicans Alike (Time - Pink Floyd): th-cam.com/video/X9Si5T2EmZA/w-d-xo.html On matters of mathematical certainty involving an industry where fractions of a millimeter matter: For nearly 20 years, I've been practically spit on for telling the undeniable truth -- truth that takes both parties to task (as I do in my doc). I also take on the Left for manipulating racially charged incidents. I would have taken on woke in my doc too, but that was 8 years ago. But I do cover that ground a good bit on my site these days (including how the Left is its own worst enemy). I don't do politics, I do reality. I take the trail to the truth -- wherever it leads. Whether it's in my interests or not is irrelevant to my pursuit. The underlying message of the doc is about how people let emotion to run roughshod over reason. The whole country's gone out of its mind -- and THAT is the conversation we should be having. As I say on the site: ********************** The Right wants the Left and the black community to get its act together on matters deeply woven into the fabric of America’s long history of brutality and disgrace: Slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, murder, decades of civil rights violations, questionable shootings, and so on . . . While the Right won’t even look at the material properties of a tube. . . . The Right delights in ridiculing the Left for burning buildings to further the cause. Yet they went batshit crazy after 9/11: Setting the world ablaze - and browbeating anybody out of line in their March of Folly. Ripping on woke is all the rage. And outrage industries of dish-it-but-can’t-take-it - would talk about race and responsibility till the end of time. But heaven forbid we have a single conversation about war and responsibility. ********************** Speaking of responsibility and people who preach it. Guess who flagrantly ignored that overwhelming & irrefutable evidence on WMD and so much more? Glenn Loury's hero: Thomas Sowell. One Tweet is all it should take: "Thomas Sowell flagrantly failed to follow the facts on Iraq WMD - opting to peddle party-line talking points that poison political discourse & butcher debate to this day. Here’s my 7-part documentary that exhaustively details the biggest and most costly lie in modern history" How many lay-people have you ever came across who wrote and produced a documentary? In nearly 20 years of challenging people on these issues and others, I’ve never met a single one. You’d think that would earn at least a little respect, but no such luck. ;o) I point people to a 7-part, 2 hours and 40 minutes doc - that distills a story that demanded a massive amount of effort, thought, research, and writing: And they tap a Tweet with a talking point or two - thinking they can inform me. It's madness. And the irrational behavior 8 years ago pales in comparison to now. As someone on Twitter told me: "Your documentary was ahead of its time." And the religious-like following around Sowell is beyond anything I've seen -- and I've been dealing with the delusional for decades. As I wrote in the post "The Sole Sowell Supporter Who Listened & Learned": *********************** In 18 months of writing about Thomas Sowell, I’ve seen everything from “polite” dismissiveness to sheer savagery. In some cases, his followers defend him before they even know what the subject matter is. Blind devotion is not a path to understanding anything - which does a colossal disservice to your purpose. And that behavior is a gross breach of the very principles you put him on a pedestal for. Even on the issues in question - my objective is not to destroy his reputation. Quite the contrary. Believe it or not, my aim is to make Thomas Sowell the catalyst who could turn the tide. The ultimate irony is that your blind loyalty limits him - while my criticism could elevate him to heights your hero-worship ensures he’ll never go. *********************** And Loury embarrassed himself by refusing to even glance at the evidence: "Sowell is a great man because of his books. I stand by that. you want to refute his books - go ahead. I’m listening." - Glenn Loury You wanna confine his record to a box of beliefs that suit you, and ignore anything that doesn’t. So the rules of argument you espouse on a daily basis don’t apply to you . . . A lot of that goin’ around . . . . As M. Scott Peck perfectly put it: "[W]e must accept responsibility for a problem before we can solve it." I don’t see a single person of prominence doing any analysis on how the problems that plague America are interrelated. It's impossible to even put a dent in America's problems without understanding how we created and perpetuate them. As I said in Clear the Clutter: "How do we make people realize they’ve been lied to? You have to knock down one small pillar that’s easier to reach." Thomas Sowell is that pillar. . . .
I do believe these five minds could go into a nice fully-stocked B&B for a month, put their heads together, and really present the best possible "way" to mover forward. This was just a tiny taste of that.
Just an old white hippie lady here who very much wishes her white liberal friends would listen to this beautiful and enlightening conversation . Thank you all. And, PS, could we maybe include a black woman next time?✌🏼🖖🏾🫶🏼❣️🙏
This is one of the most uplifting debates I have ever listened to - and perhaps the ONLY one where I have not decided there was a winner and a loser; an more enlightened view and a less defensible one. Each of the 4 active voices in this discussion (deftly moderated by Reihan Salam) made their positions clearly and passionately - but respectfully. Having followed Glenn’s output for over 5 years now, I have yet to hear him utter any thoughts with which I do not fully concur - but whilst I totally understand the stance which he and Bob put forward, I find myself equally accepting of the position argued by Kmele and Shelby. At some point, it seems we must reach some degree of consensus between these two approaches, in order to defeat the radical regressiveness of the embittered, divisive hucksterism of both black and white radicals. For me, the key lies (as always) in language - through 80% of western society, there is today vanishingly little remaining Race-hatred. But there is - and always will be - huge amounts of Tribalism - which can probably NEVER be broken down. Except by authoritarian intervention. We tend to favour “people like us”, not in terms of skin pigmentation, but increasingly in the realms of shared upbringing; similar education; similar passions (be they sporting or musical or cultural), and the same outlook on life. These marginal “biases” have less and less to do with race, and more and more to do with fellowship - which is actually the point most of us [of a certain age] always wanted to get to. As such, perhaps Glenn and Bob take the constrained view of Tribalism, where Kmele and Shelby are more bravely espousing the merits of the unconstrained (borrowing from Thomas Sowell’s analysis). But no-one is wrong in this debate - the enemies are all outside the room - and logically beyond the core beliefs of the 80% represented by the four (and realistically five) gentlemen we heard today. Thanks to you all for a measured, respectful and well-presented discussion. I, for one, feel much wiser for having observed this deeply impressive conversation!
I loved this conversation! I find Kmele's "youthful idealism" to actually be very much in line with some of the final documented thoughts of Frederick Douglass. In a speech given in 1894, just 5 months before his death, "The Blessings of Liberty and Education", Frederick Douglass had this to say; "I have a word now upon another subject, and what I have to say may be more useful than palatable. That subject is the talk now so generally prevailing about races and race lines. I have no hesitation in telling you that I think the colored people and their friends make a great mistake in saying so much of race and color. I know no such basis for the claims of justice. I know no such motive for efforts at self-improvement. In this race-way they put the emphasis in the wrong place. I do now and always have attached more importance to manhood than to mere kinship or identity with any variety of the human family. RACE, in the popular sense, is narrow; humanity is broad. The one is special; the other is universal. The one is transient; the other permanent. In the essential dignity of man as man, I find all necessary incentives and aspirations to a useful and noble life. Man is broad enough and high enough as a platform for you and me and all of us. The colored people of this country should advance to the high position of the Constitution of the country. The Constitution makes no distinction on account of race or color, and they should make none. We hear, since emancipation, much said by our modern colored leaders in commendation of race pride, race love, race effort, race superiority, race men, and the like. One man is praised for being a race man and another is condemned for not being a race man. In all this talk of race, the motive may be good, but the method is bad. It is an effort to cast out Satan by Beelzebub. The evils which are now crushing the negro to earth have their root and sap, their force and mainspring, in this narrow spirit of race and color, and the negro has no more right to excuse and foster it than have men of any other race." Frederick Douglass also hits hard on this idea of race in "The Nations Problem" as well. While I deeply appreciate all of these incredible men, I'm team Kmele on this one!
Frederick Douglass makes me want to cry. A transcendent intellect who put common shared humanity above petty lines in the sand, whose project was human liberty. The idea that it is mere idealism that leads one to reject sorting and rank ordering people by something as petty as a few degrees on the color wheel, two squares away on a color swatch.. if that's youthful idealism, let me be forever young like Douglass.
Need much more of this! What a great and fantastic discussion! Forums such as this should be mandatory and become a tradition until the beast is slain.
What a conversation. I found myself bouncing back and forth between the points being made. Really fantastic conversation. Well done all. Woodward's poison on venom and snake bite treatment is well made.
Another spectacular conversation on the Glenn show. I have to say I find Glenn's argument the most compelling. Race is on its way to being irrelevant but we aren't there yet.
The parameters of when you move on from it to the more substantial issues of Kmele and Dr Steele is a tricky question to define and respond to. Because of such an ill defined point of how to move on from race, Shelby and Kmele are rationally justified to press the issue forward knowing that too big of a stop and dwelling on “race Island” might also keep us from getting to the mainland of the hard work of managing freedom and our choices and consequences and the need to claim more entirely our self determination.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn in your opinion, when would be the right time to move on? What would you consider the bench marks or parameters in which the obsession with race needs to go to bed?
Enlightening discussion showcasing the Conservative principle of allowing a diversity of perspectives to compete in the marketplace of ideas. I can see how each man’s point contributes to the overall solution. Even while there are conflicting strategies designed to fit diverse applications, I agree with the end game which is meant to render melanin inconsequential in defining character. Special kudos to Kmele Foster for articulating why he doesn’t believe in unearned pride; because pride is something an individual earns based on his personal accomplishments. For individuals in the collective to claim personal pride in others achievements simply because they belong to the collective is, as he puts it, hollow and counterfeit. Individuals in the group may honor heroes, but they are not themselves heroes until such honor inspires like action. If we’re going to assume personal credit for the accomplishments of others just because they look like us, why do we not also assume guilt and shame and consequences for their misdeeds? Both assumptions perpetuate illusions that are out of sync with reality. The illusion is called racism. It is most “real” in the minds of those who give themselves over to it, because they prefer the illusion for whatever reason. And the reason Shelby puts forth - that the rigors of freedom are too frightening - is a formidable one that was not at all challenged herein.
Great episode, one of the best! Everyone put forth good arguments. Overall I ended up with Shelby and Kmele. Having been in a race relationship group at my church for the last two years I have observed how a personal focus on race distorts a person's ability to see things from other perspectives. I am not talking about radical people here, but once they lock in to the "my race " mode they seem to bring a bunch of negative baggage, much of it false or distorted, and since it rooted in "their race " (my perception here) it seems like it can't be challenged. I think Shelby is right, race poisons the discussion from the start and hinders pursuit of many possible solutions to the problems facing the most burdened in our nation. It might also be helpful to breakout racial content in a person's life into different categories. Perhaps identity vs definitive. Those of us who are decendants of the great immigrant wave around 1900 often still see those backgrounds as part of our identity but they don't define any of our personal characteristics. All of my grandparents were of the first generation born in the United States and their ethnic heritage, in their minds, was an important part of who they were. Glenn and Bob seem concerned about losing this heritage, the fact is they can always remember they're black but to function well in the culture of today and the future they will have to stop thinking it provides any definition to who they are as a person. Just some thoughts.
Outstanding comment. It does seem, and Glenn acknowledges that Kmele and Dr Steele are farther down the road in their thoughts and leadership on this issue.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn I have never really listened much to either one of them,but I will say this , I listened to what Trump actually said in the "fine people on both sides " speech. He very specifically condemned white supremacists. The media clipped that part out. Ask yourself, about anybody presented in the media, have they shown actual evidence of who a person is or just created a story they repeat until people think it is true. Not a Trump fan, but have yet to see solid evidence that he is a racist.
Kmele is exactly how I feel. As a techie I found my heritage to come from mathematicians and computer scientists, as well as, “black” leaders. This leads me feeling a sort of identity separate from many blacks. I think I land where Glenn is but I’m very much liking what the young man is saying.
Great podcast. Loved listening to all of you. What any of you be interested in replacing if the opportunity arose the joy reads or Al Sharpton of the legacy media?
Hit send too early. It’s unfortunate that all of you make too much sense you’re not willing to make the issue of race complex and unsolvable I say unfortunately because Legacy media will likely not invite you to debate people like Joy Reid or Rev. Al. I’m hopeful that will happen.
Great, nuanced conversation. thanks to Glenn for putting it on his TH-cam platform. I have been listening to Foster for a couple years now and trying to wrap my head around his concept of racelessness/post-racialism. I agree that we cannot make race the only salient point of our identity, especially when it comes to public policy. But the cultural aspect of our identity is still important to many of us. I've wondered if Foster being an immigrant means he just doesn't "get it" when it comes to black American cultural identity. I've lived near Philadelphia my entire life. But there's something special when I visit my aunt in rural Georgia. Seeing those ancestral lands is an experience Foster will never relate to. (Just as I could never relate to experiences of Jamaicans.)
I can't fathom where this magical "our" comes from. The "royal we" seems to have risen from the grave. There's this magical racial culture or identity everyone gestures toward but no one can define. It's an aggregation of individual experiences everyone has some share of, but without any way of knowing which people share which experiences. Racial identity has no substance. It's like a mirage in the desert, where everyone that sees it fawns over it, agrees that it is important and reaches toward it, but noone can agree on what they saw and when anyone tries to touch it, it's nothing but dust. Except, mirages can't be weaponized into political bludgeons that leave the blood of innocents dripping off its hilt. If you believe that racial identity can exist in one group, that race is the sorting device by which a culture can be identified, without inviting other racial groups to self identify and self sort too.. if you believe that you can actually have it both ways.. I'm scared. Because the track record of that isn't pretty. Many innocent people who have happened to belong to disfavored minority groups have been lucky to be simply expelled or ostracized as a result of this obsession with racial sorting. One might think there are more accurate proxies for a set of shared behaviors than the color of skin.
An essential conversation. Love what Glen said about "honoring the legacy of our ancestors". i wish more of Black young people choosing the gang life knew that legacy and could be inspired by it in terms of the choices they make. It may see ironic but, as a white working class woman born in 1958, raised in the South, have been inspired by the historic legacy of Black people. in about the last 10 years or so, has shifted-- & not in a way that heals but, only deepens divides.
The difference is that Jewish, Italian, Vietnamese and ther groups do not identify themselves by the color of their skin. Neither do they take their group identity out of the ashes of trauma. In other words Jews recognize themselves as being part of the rich ancient history of their forefathers. The holocaust is PART of their story, but not the defining narrative. If we are to identify ourselves it should be in geographical context or atleast cultural (hence the term African American). As the great John Henrik Clarke said, and I am paraphrasing " if we identify ourselves as having been slawned from a slave ship, everything that comes after that is progress". And I migh humbly add, it robs us of our rich history of Africans, capable of great civilizations and conquest. Not just a sad song of oppression.
My heart is with Kmele/Shelby and the post racial alliance who derive dignity from God and merit from individual accomplishment… but my mind can’t forget that we are clannish and competitive by nature having spent 50k yrs as hunter gatherers…and so in-group moral psychology remains the order of the day - and near future - with immutable characteristics the most obvious sigil to which we rally. Identity politics and the many forms of race grift exploit this aspect of human nature. The woke are but the latest opportunists to amplify and monetize difference. After they fall, a new group will rise to do the same, perhaps until consciousness reaches the singularity.
Perhaps a reason why some ethnic groups have done well is that they got on with their lives instead of getting involved in the political process and depending on that process and politicians to improve their lives.
Great talk. Pride's one of the seven deadly - some would say it's the quintessential sin. They MUST teach that at the black church. How about an apology to the American people for certain departures from normative behavior?
Ralph Ellison and Albert Murray would have been upset at the idea that jazz is merely a response to racism . Shelby Steele has a rather reductive idea of jazz's origins
The problem is the complexity of humanity. There are so many factors that make up the individual. The discussion is how much weight do you assign one aspect of what makes up an individual, because a black Christian, soldier can have multiple interest that informs their efforts. If black agendas conflict with their Christianity then what should they do? Black identity cannot be the supreme lens of which we view society. The flip side is Kmele has, in my opinion the better strategy. All policy discussions MUST take Kmele’s approach. My black identity along with other aspects of me however can inform the agency I employ as an individual….
In Glenn`so closing comments, it's clear, he's not there yet. Kmele was making a very profound point in informing the panel that the factors that are present in sectors of the black/brown community are equally as present in communities where the offending party shares or faces the same challenges as the offender in the black/brown community. If we end racism, the same problems will still manifest because race is a symptom, it's not the cause. Moreover, if we educated the offender, racism and poverty would both cease to exist.
I wish I could agree with Shelby Steele that there is nothing to be gained by organizing against the race hustlers by race. The problem is that many of those who most need to hear the anti race hustling message will not listen to anyone who is white, and the presence of a significant number of white voices in the chorus gives the race hustlers something to harp on and vilify as some combination of Privilege and Uncle Thomism. That doesn't mean that I have nothing to say as a white man, but there is a significant subset of those who can be reached that can only be reached by black only groups.
It seems that the main difference is that Woodson and Loury see a place for targeted, race-focused action against race-focused action with which they disagree where the other panelists say race should never be a factor in addressing social and political issues even as all of the panelists are looking forward to the day when race is a nonessential factor in individual identity as opposed to those who seek to establish race as the central element in individual identity.
Two see it as having some traction to move forward and the other two see it as irrationally poisoned to find a non dissonant path forward. Such a good tangle of ideas and back and forth. A masterpieces of intellectual contention.
It’s hard to say who has it right here, since I don’t think there is any historical precedent to this situation. I lean towards Bob and Glenn, because the message has to reach those poorer communities that shun intellectuals and pick on kids who excel academically. Maybe role models such as these guys can pry off the grip of the democrats who are subjugating them with state dependence.
I haven't gotten to that part yet, but considering that I've heard him make a similar argument before, I tend to agree. I have no right to anything John Lewis has done. John Lewis did what he did. Same goes for Sojourner Truth, Malcolm, Nat Turner, etc. Similarly, I am not responsible for the bad things people have done before me. Or, if I want to claim what other people have done, I MUST draw the circle wider (as Glenn would say "Dostotevsky is mine") and take responsibility for what people who "look like me do" (good and bad). I'd much rather not claim something I haven't achieved myself. Shoot, a passing familial relation would make more sense to claim the achievement.
I tend to lean to Shelby's perspective and would probably take it further. The true legacy of slavery is the maladaptive behaviors reinforced by cultural norms to adapt to brutal oppression. What came with that is generational trauma that has a psychological term now called Complex PTSD. Many communities that are descendants from slaves are suffering from this and don't even realize it because of the normalization of it in the culture.
I think a good litmus test is to ask ourselves; would we be ok with white people doing this? For some reason, when you frame these questions using white people, the answer becomes clear. Are we ok with white people saying they are proud of being white? Are we ok with white people feeling collective pride for the contributions to society made by other white people? Are we ok with white people forming political coalitions based on their skin color? Are we ok with a "white history month"? I understand that race-based identitarianism is necessary at times when there is a group of people being discriminated against based on their racial identification (or any other group identity), but if we are talking about how we move forward as a society, it is simply untenable to have special privileges given to certain groups indefinitely. Of course, there is the possibility that due to the way our species functions, we will ultimately not be able to completely shed these group identifications. If that is the case, we need to have healthy identifications for all groups. You can not deny group identification to only white people. They will ultimately form a racial identification if they are being targeted for chastisement based on their racial identification.
As a middle aged white conservative, I can say after reading the letter condemning the attacks on Clarence Thomas, there was nothing in the letter I disagree with. But I don't think adding my signature would have done anything to make that letter more powerful or persuasive. I used to teach social studies at a high school in the South Bronx. None of my students were considered "white" unless of course you considered white Hispanics to be white. When the subject of race came up I told my students that their race only mattered under 2 circumstances. First it mattered if someone was going to treat them differently because of it or if it mattered to them as a matter of ethnic pride. I don't think my opinion about their ethnic pride should matter, but I very strongly believe that they should not be treated differently because of their perceived race, What do you know, I have finally found something I disagree with Shelby Steele about. But as I think Glenn said, that disagreement is merely a disagreement about tactics. I will end by broadening the snake venom metaphor. Dosis sola facit venenum (only the dose makes the poison). There are many deadly poisons that are life preserving drugs in lower doses. My mother took .125 mg of Digoxin every other day for years to treat her atrial fibrillation. That was true even though Digoxin is derived from the deadly poison Foxglove. Unfortunately, for now, we need to remain conscious of race if we are going to fight for a race blind future.
I am probably 25 years older than you, a Sixties liberal, and among my past jobs I taught in predominantly Black and brown schools in Los Angeles. As a lawyer, some of my best clients (civil law, not criminal defense) have been Black and not affluent (but also not poor). And I disagree with you. I think we cannot heal the wound of racism by scratching at it repeatedly. There is not a fog of racism that we all move through every day. It’s a myth. There are definitely racist individuals but our society is no longer overwhelmingly racist. It is counterproductive to keep pounding that drum.
@@pamelaroyce5285 I am not sure what you disagree with me about. I think the fact that this country elected a Black man as president, twice, is pretty strong evidence that racists and racism don't have the power they used to have. That is not to say that racism no longer exists. But the racial problems in this country are primarily about dealing with the legacies of slavery, segregation and racism. In a few months, the Supreme Court is going to rule that discriminating on the basis of race, even to help disadvantaged minorities, is illegal or unconstitutional (depending on who is doing the discriminating). I think in the long run that will be a very healthy thing. In the meantime if universities want to offer extra help to disadvantaged applicants, they will still be able to do that. But they will have to base it on the obstacles the applicants faced and overcame without looking at race or ethnicity. That will be significantly harder for admissions offices, but it would be both fairer and lead to less resentment. But what will probably happen is that even more elite schools will stop requiring the SATs so that it will harder to prove that they are discriminating for or against anyone based on race.
@@michaelmcchesney6645 I meant that I disagree with you about being conscious of race until it doesn’t matter anymore. In 1968 we thought that. But it turns out that some of our interventions, such as affirmative action admissions to universities, did not get the results we had hoped for. According to John McWhorter, after California abolished affirmative action, Black and brown students actually performed better, stayed in their courses of study, and acquired degrees more successfully and in greater numbers. Constantly looking for possible slights does not improve anyone’s lot. The apparent race-based (that were also class-based) biases in standardized tests such as the SAT were eliminated decades ago. It isn’t the 1960s anymore. Being conscious of race until we aren’t anymore is like the alchemist telling the apprentice that the spell for transmuting lead into gold will work as long as they don’t think about blue monkeys. Naturally, the apprentice will never be able to complete the incantation without thinking of the thing they aren’t supposed to think about. I just don’t think it’s logical. Thank you for your civil reply. One thing I have noticed in the comments in this particular page is that the comments and side conversations are intelligent and polite even where there is disagreement.
@@pamelaroyce5285 I don't think we disagree or at least not very much. I think you can be conscious of race without being obsessed with it. What I meant was that we should keep track of racial outcomes so that we can be aware of both progress toward equality and investigate racial disparities that may be caused by current racism. Of course many associated with BLM see racism everywhere. I don't think that is healthy. I grew up in the Bronx in the 1970s and 80s. I still live there. I remember what this city was like before a currently insane former mayor took office. Trust me, the last thing I want to do is defund the police. But better training and more effective discipline? I am all for that.
also other cultures, ethnic groups, move and mobilize off of shared identity, Jewish folks, Arabic folks, Asians of different denominations, all are ambitious but still staying in lock step code on how they prefer to move, some even make it a rule in their household to stay amongst their own, so I’m not bothered by Robert Woodson perspective amongst building off a shared identity, even if it’s race, race may seem like a base, a minimal or insignificant base depending on who you ask, but what identity that is also being used to mobilize, is unique and correct? One can argue religion is made up and there is no god, so why credit religious groups for coming together? Why do blacks have to be the one singled out for a frivolous tribalism? It makes no sense if everyone else can play the game of tribalism but not blacks
When I was growing up in the 1980s, my friends and I had no issue looking up to black people, whether sports figures or movie stars (we're white). A few years ago when I worked on contract for a black publication, I had to review every article. I wasn't too shocked that the black celebrities never mentioned a single white person that influenced them. In one case, a black hip hop star was "accused" of being influenced by Bob Segar, and the singer insisted it was a lie and that "I ain't influenced by no white boy!" It actually went into print. It's just the way it is. White people are color blind; black and brown people are not. It may have to do with not being a majority. Maybe the roles will shift in the future. Who knows. I still love Richard Pryor and Thomas Sowell.
I think the argument is absurd by Shelby especially against the signing of a letter. If we are individuals and race does not matter. What is the difference between a letter with all African American vs a letter with a few European Americans? He is proving the point Bob is making by showing it is a difference between the scenario even for himself
To me feeling pride over the contribution of a "group" to something I personally had nothing to do with, nor was I even alive, yet, to have anything to do with it, sounds almost (or perhaps completely) the same as national pride. Being proud of one's place of birth/home country, when it's an accident. It's like, "Oh, I'm proud to be Hungarian!" Why would I be? Because of '56, perhaps? A lot of Hungarians when they beat their chests about the Revolution of '56, do so talking about it as though Hungary was the only damn nation that was doing something during that time, ignoring all the rest. Sure, their contribution was not insignificant. It was significant. But, feeling pride, and feeling entitled to that pride, is the abandonment of things like meritocracy, achieving something and contributing something either by one's damn self, or with the help of others, and then feeling pride over it, having lived and done it. But, doing it for something that's in recent history or even in the distant past is like someone is still living IN that past, harping back to past/lost glory. And apart from being unhealthy, mentally, it is also unproductive and unprogressive for their present. By that thinking, any non-black person should congratulate and thank any random black person for some contributions made decades past and that black person personally should be proud of it. Why? Chances are they might not even know a damn thing about it. Chances are that neither party have heard about it and that's partly a failure of the education system, but I digress.
Our problems as a nation can be boiled down to two causes: the bad and still deteriorating state of the family; and, the dismal state of K-12 education. Both family and education are race independent in that, while the state of the black family may be worse, the state of both the white and hispanic family is also bad and getting worse. Again, while education in black inner city neighborhoods may be dreadful, the same can be said of education for both white and hispanic children. From what I can see myself, even the state of education for children of "the elites" is far below what it should be. Both family and education are third rail issues, particularly family but also education because of powerful vested interests in the status quo. Poorly educated people cannot be expected to be able to deal with such challenges since life is so challenging and children from dysfunctional families cannot be expected to perform well in school. There will be exceptions, but the real quality of a democratic nation is based on the average, not the elite. For the average citizen, education quality and family stability are heading down, not up. If we do not fix them, and soon, then this country has seen its zenith. The nihilists who dominate so many of our institutions understand this well, which explains the nonsense they preach and the people they support financially. Their end game is total destruction of our culture and so far, they are getting their way while we debate about race.
And I might add, the family issue is one of the political “third rails”. Hence it is intractable. I am surprised this needs to be said. The late Senator Pat Moynihan wrote about it decades ago and it is not much worse. Do some reading. Information is easy to find.
I think what undermines both the development of families and better schools is the hoarding of wealth by the 1%. When we had a decent tax rate under Eisenhower, who also had a great platform that would sound very liberal today, more people advanced across the board. It is class war that is the driver of all this.
Why are there shows where all or mainly women comment on politics - The View, The Talk, Bonnie Urbe's show on PBS, the noon FOX show - but not one for any other "group"? I'd love to see this group (or variations on it) do a weekly podcast talking on ANY topic - the Ukraine war, crypto ponzi schemes, China - not just "blackness." Though I enjoyed this discussion as well. It's my Christmas wish!
There are no more real barriers to ethnic integration by marriage, but toxic and damaging attitudes persist even among these mixed, married couples as spouses often reflexively embrace, support and adopt the toxic attitudes of victimhood which their spouse holds dear. It takes a spouse with a very strong intellectual identity and moral constitution to reject these beloved myths, prejudices and refuse to give them oxygen.
Recently former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo challenged Randi Weingarten to a debate. Perhaps Mr. Foster in particular might join this challenge or propose his own to the person that Mr. Pompeo calls the "most dangerous woman in America." American education is nearing a kind of depraved irrelevance. And a very expensive one.
The term black on black crime usually follows as an argument to the statement that black men are incarcerated at a disproportionate rate for the exact crimes. The black murder rate (50% of all murders by 13% of the population) is also disproportionate as are drug dealing crimes, gang crimes etc.. Now, the disservice of focusing at all on these negative things is that it gives the perception that black people are violent as a whole (or can be so stranger danger is heightened) when most are not. Pitbulls also have the same stereotype. They are top in killing people (primarily because Chihuahuas lack the mass to kill ;) ) and they kill about 30 people a year (10 year average) but there are 18 million pitbulls in America who do not kill. Same for black murders, somewhere around 5k a year but there are 44 million black Americans in America. Same goes go white people in this sense, there about 6k triple K members but about 70 million white Americans. who do not identify as triple K but we need to be afraid of all 70 million, right? Each person is responsible for their own sin, not all those who look like them.
I've been listening to Glenn, Bob, Shelby & Kmele for 3 years now, and they all have my deepest respect. To listen to them constructively disagree and work through such important issues is truly a great lesson. This is how we move forward.
For some reason I really liked Kmele’s insight on feeling a right to being inspired with anyone in humanity and not just “people who may look like us”. I remember Glenn’s words of claiming inheritance of the great Russian writers like Tolstoy. And so in that vane, we all have a right to claim an element of pain and frustration at seeing the injustice to Clarence Thomas and to the poor inner city people bearing with the senseless violence. We should feel the pride and inheritance and the pain and anger of all the people of our land. We are in this boat together and if one aspect of those in our boat lags or destructs, we are in deep crap. This is the only boat we got….
I so agree with you. This does resonate with most people except if the hardship occurs in a white person’s life. There’s zero empathy anymore.
@@deannaslamans9181 we can all take some strength from the great abolitionists of the past and the thousands who worked over hundreds of years to end slavery and racism and to bring us step by step closer to the perfect Union. All people in the US need to tap into the strength of and follow the example more of the great Americans who through their lives bore with dignity their challenges and worked to bring the US to a better place. We are so soft now. We need to toughen up and become more resilient and more determined to bear life’s individual injustices with more fervent resolve like so many millions of persons who transitioned our nation out of slavery into equality.
To much victimhood justification from him. He's an "individualist" encouraging monolith thinking and solutions devoid of self criticism.
@@duppyshuman seems like the individualist view is nothing but self criticism, self development and personal responsibility. That is pure self criticism/. What criticism would you level at him. He seems to only want to produce personally and not shift any sort of blame or responsibility to “groups”.
@@swcordovaf I'll concede your point about him-to a certain degree. As admirable as those qualities are his list of problems at this point have become tired microscopic examination of Black leftist cliches to in my opinion attempt to breathe life into them. He kept breaking down and breaking down each one with no movement. The others views were grounded in lived experience having had to face undeniable hardship he and his generation have never faced. They "overcame" during a time when just complaining let alone taking action to end racial injustice could get you killed-and they expressed themselves with nuance. They genuinely listened and reflectively considered his statements as he did theirs. I do wish an older Left leaning person had been included.
“Identity is an avoidance of the challenges of freedom” what a statement, great conversation, hopefully this reaches many
Damn I just started it. That is such a great statement. Who said it?
The primary challenge of individual freedom is taking responsibility for your own feelings and actions, whatever the external circumstances (with whatever help is necessary). The second is to become classically educated enough to discern which things in society are structural barriers to EVERYONE's freedom, which can vary with ethnicity, gender, etc. but are largely grounded in the same thing--a patriarchal, zero-sum culture that values money over humanity--and find specific, detailed policies that can get through legislatures. In other words, a hard look at yourself and hard work to bring about incremental change, the only kind that doesn't cause worse backlash and destruction of what IS good in existing social institutions.
Foster's comments beginning at about 54:00, about what he called "unearned pride" and "collective achievement" really sums up this question of identity. Real self-esteem comes from personnel accomplishment. Group association can only do but so much, for a person. They still have to bring something of their own individuality, to the table. I would dare say, that the worst psychologically damaged individual, is likely the one who doesn't "succeed" in spite of having greater advantages, if they take this kind of competitive thinking to heart.
Steele sounds like a "woke" - hip-hop-activist, with his perspective on the value of Black music. I don't know if there is a greater lover of Black, African, & music of the 'African Diaspora', than myself, but even I control my promotion of "Black Music". I certainly don't place it above other music forms, created by Africans and African descendent people, anywhere in the world. China and India likely make up the majority of the human population. They have their own traditional music. Have their people completely lost their appreciation of these music's? Are they not included in this assessment of music? They may even love reggae music more than R&B and Rap. Bob Marley is likely as well known around the world than is Tupac Shakur.
Are any people, who they once were, given the power of mass media and social media? Modernity/technology is rapidly changing us all. We all have double or even multiple consciousness. We see ourselves as individuals, as well as members of the social units, we are a part of. Life is largely the act of regulating these different associations. Modernity has given our individual consciousness more "freedom". Woman and children/adolescents have been the greatest beneficiaries and victims respectively, of this freedom. I won't speak to Conservative male's perspective on this.
Identity can't exist without "the other". Identity is often fostered/reinforced by emphasizing the contrast that exist between the subject group or individual, and 'The Other'. Modernity has increased the level of contact between people and groups. We have yet to evolve/mature enough emotionally, morally, and ethically, to be able to deal with our differences. African-Americans suffer this the worst, that is why even these conservative gentlemen don't agree on everything. They are grappling with the particularities of Black double/multiple consciousness. I say we suffer from this the most, because we have the most to lose or suffer greater consequences. Our identities - individual and group, have always been tenuous, having been separated from who we once were. Some of us likely see this as an advantage moving forward into a rapidly changing future. Our culture is young and has always been subjected to the powerful forces of modernity. It has been a blessing and a curse. Those among us who see themselves as gatekeepers of "The Culture" will likely soon find themselves being seen as irrelevant, at a much earlier age than us Boomers, they are so often critical of - sometimes rightfully so. I don't know if what I've said speaks to the "ethics of identity", but it sure is my reality of it.
I cannot stress enough how important these conversations are.
Glenn, from the bottem of my heart, thank you.
Such an enlightening conversation. What a privilege to listen to all of you. A blessed Thanksgiving to all of you.
Exactly. A discussion where no one irritated me by saying anything just silly.
Maybe you're new to this crowd and find it enlightening. I can understand that -- I've been there. Glenn Loury himself once called my writing "brilliant" and was "blown away" by my site. But these people are not what you think they are: They're not solving problems, they're serving a market. Endlessly talking about the same problems in the same old ways -- hasn't made a dent and never will. Like Black Lives Matter, they’re just pounding away at problems without any examination of the efficacy of their efforts. Also like BLM, they're actually making matters worse. I could explain that -- to anyone to willing to listen.
But lemme enlighten you on how this game works: Purveyors of virtue make videos about listening to reason and following the facts -- and out comes the commentary of self-congratulations and hailing of high praise. Then I come along asking the kind of questions these people don't wanna hear -- and suddenly their "standards" go right out the window. In the 18 months of challenging people throughout these communities -- I've seen everything from "polite” dismissiveness to sheer savagery. In their bottomless contempt for correction, they are utterly devoid of desire to understand anything that isn’t self-evident in 60 seconds. Their behavior has not an atom of integrity, courtesy, curiosity, courage, decency: Or any virtue of any kind.
In all that time, I've only seen a couple of people ask the key question I do: Is this working? Incredibly, it doesn't even seem to cross their minds. And what's worse -- no amount of explanation matters to them as to why it should. I’m sure it’s intoxicating to amass a following and feel like you’re making a difference. But I’m gonna weigh your impact partly as a reflection of your community: How people behave - not what they believe. If you can’t get that right, I don’t care how big your following gets - you’re taking this nation nowhere. Not in the right direction, anyway.
Some of their work is enlightening. Pointless repetition is not. You wanna be enlightened? Try this on for size (google it and you'll see): "This Nation Needs a National Conversation - On How to Have Conversation"
I find myself thinking. There MUST be room for cultural and historical identity. At the same time, I 'think' (but I'm not sure) using black pride as a "weapon" is causing more damage for people than helping people.
Perhaps using ANY identity as a weapon is generally suspect at best and destructive more often.
I watch our leaders deliberately pit identity groups against each other to keep power. When our nation faces existential threats, there are individuals from across the board that VOLUNTEERS to keep freedom alive.
In the early 60s I was a toddler. The rythym and flow of this conversation with its build up of tension, crescendo, laughter, and resolution evoked warm, familiar feelings that I can trace back to when I was just learning language. My people came north from NOLA. The fellas, papa, uncles, dad would all get together and debate,I didnt understand the content, but there was a wonderful sense of security that everything was going to be alright. I hope many young brothers will watch.
Even the comment section is brimming with nuanced and thoughtful intellectual takes!!
Thanks Glenn for hosting and facilitating this discussion!
I'm at 14:50 Shelby has been discoursing on identity vs the demands freedom makes on us. Blown away. This strikes me as essential understanding for everyone, not just the blacks he is addressing.
15:30 Shelby "identity is an avoidance of freedom ". Wow. I have to ponder that for a bit. Is he right? If so the implications are powerful.
He is down the road a ways trying to help us get to the heart of the issue and avoid some of the self deception a long the way that would distract us from real personal progress. Makes me wonder what else besides race we are using as excuses to not fully handle our freedoms, our choices and the accompanying consequences.
We have embraced “black identity” in various vernacular and labels since the 1960’s. We went from being colored (niggers to some), to black, then African American to now the more politically correct “people of color”. Why all these “changes” ? Trying to stay culturally relevant by focusing solely on superficial a label. That alone shows that we have no clue that”focusing “race” alone has never been the solution to all the problem we face in our community that Shelby points out. If we can ever let go of it, and focus on the real “elephants in the room”, we will see real progress, but sadly I don’t see that happening in the current cultural environment.
That’s a fantastic comment.
We don't have identity. It was taking from us
@@sassyluv1242 lol, derp
@@richardbicker640 I hesitantly try to speak for the titans of Steele and Foster but I would guess that they would say 1. Family structure 2. Educational preparation 3. Self discipline 4. Self determination 5. Sacrifice 6. Crime 7. Financial literacy. 8. Entrepreneurship. 9. Hope. 10. Moral/ethical development …. Stuff like that. Principles that uplift all people of all times in all cultures of all locations.
@@richardbicker640 are you stating that you don’t see how individuals acting along those 10 points is where the meat is vs focusing on race? A massive collection of individuals acting well as individuals along those 10 fronts isn’t where the greatest opportunity for improvement?
Shelby's push-back on dual citizenship is enlightening. Beautiful discussion. Thank you for sharing.
This is a fascinating conversation. I tune into these discussions a lot as a "white" father of biracial kids with a "black " mother, mainly to educate my approach to how to discuss race with our kids. Their mother is already a pretty tangled mix of European and native American ancestry that Louisiana bred. My daughters have wavy hair and a complexion that living in Arizona is defaulted to them being Hispanic. I've joked the most common "racism" they will experience is old latina grandmothers griping them for not speaking Spanish and disrespecting their heritage.....
My wife's family do insist on making sure they are culturally aware of their blackness, and my parents educate them on their European heritage. Because the thing is as a "white American" my identity is also divided. My father is Irish, my mother is Dutch, I was conceived in Germany and born in the US a few months after they moved here. Growing up my parents would say "You're half Irish and half Dutch" to which I would reply "Well am I not also American? Hasn't this country had more effect on my upbringing than those that have some cultural effect thru you and we visit?" . So I would say I'm half American, 1/4 Irish and 1/4 Dutch. And when it comes to my kids... there is so much different in them genetically and culturally is sifting that out into these silos worth it?
And after all these silos are pretty arbitrary, what does it mean to be Dutch, or Irish, or any other nationality? The modern nation states are pretty novel, we don't have to go back too far in history where Holland was just a Germanic region among many, or Ireland was a grouping of clans with some shared language(though not the same language) and island. If you go to those countries you still see the regional pride that is more important than national pride. I always kind of laugh at things like 23 and me giving people this blue print of who they are by nationality, because they aren't measuring it even based on something like you have absorbed things from the land in that region. It's based on shared genetics with people currently living in that part of the world that we have now labelled "Country A". So not only are we dealing with the somewhat arbitrary concept of current human regional boundaries, we are also somewhat believing that global human migration hasn't been a thing for millennia. The surname on my dutch side is French in origin so at some point that migration happened that we don't have a record of.
This all has lead me to a view somewhat like Kmele. When my kids ask me am i white or am I black, I usually say well both, and neither, you're just you. They are what I imagine will be the norm a few hundred years from now when everyone is a light brown person and racial history becomes both to complex to track and pretty much unmeaningful....
I agree with much of what you say. It's also true that identities are often foisted on others and sometimes denied. Humans often like to wield identity as a sword against those they dislike. Class and caste have historically been used to enforce the rules of society to benefit those on top. It's the same for race and ethnicity. Humans try to ascribe generic attributes to people of certain groups whether that is valor or laziness, for example.
Thank you for this conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed the nuances of all sides, and the more it went on, the more I found myself drawn into the discussion as a silent participant.
What an honor to get to listen to such distinguished guest talk and discuss these matters.
An extraordinary conversation...Thank you so much. If only this were heard and seen by more people..I see only 278 views..Unbelievable!
Almost 7,500 views now. Not bad
@@brianmeen2158 ....I'm relieved! It's an incredible conversation I'm glad more are listening. :)
So much fun to be in the presence of these wonderful, thoughtful, lovely men! Thank you so much ❤❤❤
What a great conversation! Why on earth this wasn’t a show on a national network is beyond me. I’ve not seen anything like this until I stumbled across Glenn Loury on You Tube.
A very enlightening and appreciated conversation from a young black man trying to understand how to bring material change to the community. These conversations are integral and these wise elders truly have our best interest!
“The collective action problem: how do you get people to pull together in the same direction on behalf of goals that none of them can achieve on their own requires some kind of narrative?”
The million dollar question.
A critical thinker will ask “by what standard and by whose authority is such narrative believed and proclaimed?”
Wow. A wonderful conversation indeed. A model for how we can converse and how we can choose to NOT polarize. Watching this has been a learning experience. Gives me hope. I say this as a lefty who is part of the progressive elite ( although far from the financial elite), and who does not relate to the progressive religious-like dogma we have been beaten down with for several years now.
Glenn Loury once called my writing "brilliant" and was "blown away" by my site and signed up. But he wasn't too keen on the truth when I took his hero to task (exactly like the people he's trying to convince). You strike me as someone who might be willing to listen though -- as you don't fit the mold.
In an earlier reply, I speak to that model you mentioned. The model itself isn't the problem -- it's the narrow scope of the debate, which has ZERO chance of success in today’s trench warfare between armies of unreachables. At the very least, Loury-like communities should reasonably reflect the principles they preach. They do nothing of the kind -- and when it mattered most, neither did he. Following facts going in the direction you desire doesn't count -- anybody can that.
As I mentioned earlier: I’m sure it’s intoxicating to amass a following and feel like you’re making a difference. But I’m gonna weigh your impact partly as a reflection of your community: How people behave - not what they believe. If you can’t get that right, I don’t care how big your following gets - you’re taking this nation nowhere. Not in the right direction, anyway
"A model for how we can converse and how we can choose to NOT polarize." Well, we can do that -- right here, we can demonstrate how it's done. They posted a video-- you commented, and I come along say, "Wait a minute -- there's a much bigger picture here that nobody sees."
If I came across the bit above, here's how I would respond (or something along these lines):
**************************
That's interesting -- Loury called your writing 'brilliant" and was "blown away" by your site and signed up -- and you took his hero to task? What was the writing about? Who's his hero and why did you do that? What's the story here? And you support Loury's efforts but not his approach. I'd like to hear more about that and how you came to that conclusion.
**************************
Here's your chance to deliver on your word. I invite you to google this and take the trail where it leads: "Glenn Loury was a Great Man - Until He Wasn’t"
Thanks for your time!
@@mounteverestoftheobvious1182 Hi, I'd be happy to respond, but I'll be honest, I don't quite follow you. I'm probably being stupid, but besides the very reasonable point you make - that what we do is more important than what we say (which I agree with) - I'm not quite getting the whole gist of your discussion. Maybe because i'm not privy to the previous instances you seem to be referring to, or to how Loury has or hasn't embodied what he preaches. Or maybe that's way off. Sorry, just not quite following.
@@alexlazaridisf.7276 There's nothing to be sorry about, and you're certainly not being stupid (though I appreciate your grace & manners in trying to get some clarification). What would be stupid is if you were unclear but dead certain in your response (which is what I almost invariably get).
As I say on the site:
"Explaining America’s decline over decades of delight in the Gutter Games of Government - is as apples & oranges as it gets when compared to the transactional nature of news and social-media norms. Understanding how seemingly unrelated events impact one another takes time and effort to digest. It involves thinking ahead & looking back."
This turned into a long reply -- but you're still not going to get it all (nor is it possible that you could on such overlapping matters of America's downfall). At the very least, I suspect someone like yourself will see why it's so complicated to explain these issues -- especially in a culture with the attention span of a child.
Anyone who wants to understand -- will, but very few people are willing to put the time and effort in (or even have the courage and curiosity it takes to see what they don't want to). As you'll soon see, what I challenged Loury on is practically baked into his DNA. His hero is not the man that Loury and countless others believe him to be -- and I can prove it.
Since blind belief in things that have no basis in reality is ruining this nation -- that's a pretty big deal (and disgraceful for Loury to look away from to protect what he believes). As I said to him: If you're not gonna look at evidence, you have no business anyone else to.
There are many components involved in this story. But rather than read it and worry about not understanding it all -- just take one thing as a time and everything will fall into place. And there's no rush or expectations -- just take your time at your convenience.
Did you google the "link" I provided at the end: "Glenn Loury was a Great Man - Until He Wasn’t"? Google has cracked down on sharing links (other than TH-cam), so I shared that text instead. I'll send a follow-up reply after this one to see if the links go through. In any case, "Glenn Loury was a Great Man - Until He Wasn’t" is an entry point into the story with Loury (and that post provides links to more details about my exchange with him).
But before we even get into that, let's get to the root of how all this began in the first place (which my posts throughout the site all point to).
8 years ago, I wrote and produced the most exhaustive documentary ever done on the biggest and most costly lie in modern history: Iraq WMD. It's in 7 parts totally 2 hours and 40 minutes, but in this 5-minute excerpt alone -- I can put this lie in its place.
As I say on the site: The rotor speed required to separate uranium isotopes doesn’t care who’s president. In order to maintain such speeds, the material properties of centrifuges are as critical as it gets. You don’t need to interview a world-renowned nuclear scientist to figure that out - but I like to be thorough:
The WMD Delusion: Timeless Deceit by Democrats & Republicans Alike (Time - Pink Floyd): th-cam.com/video/X9Si5T2EmZA/w-d-xo.html
On matters of mathematical certainty involving an industry where fractions of a millimeter matter: For nearly 20 years, I've been practically spit on for telling the undeniable truth -- truth that takes both parties to task (as I do in my doc). I also take on the Left for manipulating racially charged incidents. I would have taken on woke in my doc too, but that was 8 years ago. But I do cover that ground a good bit on my site these days (including how the Left is its own worst enemy).
I don't do politics, I do reality. I take the trail to the truth -- wherever it leads. Whether it's in my interests or not is irrelevant to my pursuit.
The underlying message of the doc is about how people let emotion to run roughshod over reason. The whole country's gone out of its mind -- and THAT is the conversation we should be having. As I say on the site:
**********************
The Right wants the Left and the black community to get its act together on matters deeply woven into the fabric of America’s long history of brutality and disgrace: Slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, murder, decades of civil rights violations, questionable shootings, and so on . . . While the Right won’t even look at the material properties of a tube.
. . .
The Right delights in ridiculing the Left for burning buildings to further the cause. Yet they went batshit crazy after 9/11: Setting the world ablaze - and browbeating anybody out of line in their March of Folly.
Ripping on woke is all the rage. And outrage industries of dish-it-but-can’t-take-it - would talk about race and responsibility till the end of time. But heaven forbid we have a single conversation about war and responsibility.
**********************
Speaking of responsibility and people who preach it. Guess who flagrantly ignored that overwhelming & irrefutable evidence on WMD and so much more? Glenn Loury's hero: Thomas Sowell.
One Tweet is all it should take: "Thomas Sowell flagrantly failed to follow the facts on Iraq WMD - opting to peddle party-line talking points that poison political discourse & butcher debate to this day. Here’s my 7-part documentary that exhaustively details the biggest and most costly lie in modern history"
How many lay-people have you ever came across who wrote and produced a documentary? In nearly 20 years of challenging people on these issues and others, I’ve never met a single one. You’d think that would earn at least a little respect, but no such luck. ;o)
I point people to a 7-part, 2 hours and 40 minutes doc - that distills a story that demanded a massive amount of effort, thought, research, and writing: And they tap a Tweet with a talking point or two - thinking they can inform me.
It's madness. And the irrational behavior 8 years ago pales in comparison to now. As someone on Twitter told me: "Your documentary was ahead of its time."
And the religious-like following around Sowell is beyond anything I've seen -- and I've been dealing with the delusional for decades.
As I wrote in the post "The Sole Sowell Supporter Who Listened & Learned":
***********************
In 18 months of writing about Thomas Sowell, I’ve seen everything from “polite” dismissiveness to sheer savagery. In some cases, his followers defend him before they even know what the subject matter is.
Blind devotion is not a path to understanding anything - which does a colossal disservice to your purpose. And that behavior is a gross breach of the very principles you put him on a pedestal for. Even on the issues in question - my objective is not to destroy his reputation. Quite the contrary. Believe it or not, my aim is to make Thomas Sowell the catalyst who could turn the tide. The ultimate irony is that your blind loyalty limits him - while my criticism could elevate him to heights your hero-worship ensures he’ll never go.
***********************
And Loury embarrassed himself by refusing to even glance at the evidence:
"Sowell is a great man because of his books. I stand by that. you want to refute his books - go ahead. I’m listening." - Glenn Loury
You wanna confine his record to a box of beliefs that suit you, and ignore anything that doesn’t. So the rules of argument you espouse on a daily basis don’t apply to you . . . A lot of that goin’ around
. . . .
As M. Scott Peck perfectly put it: "[W]e must accept responsibility for a problem before we can solve it." I don’t see a single person of prominence doing any analysis on how the problems that plague America are interrelated. It's impossible to even put a dent in America's problems without understanding how we created and perpetuate them.
As I said in Clear the Clutter: "How do we make people realize they’ve been lied to? You have to knock down one small pillar that’s easier to reach."
Thomas Sowell is that pillar.
. . .
Amazing Moderation skills, amazing discussion, looking forward to hearing and learning more.
Been looking forward to this since your recent episode with McWhorter. Thank you for uploading, as promised!
Excellent conversation, thank you!
Inspiring debate, Kmele shined. Thx all.
I do believe these five minds could go into a nice fully-stocked B&B for a month, put their heads together, and really present the best possible "way" to mover forward. This was just a tiny taste of that.
Just an old white hippie lady here who very much wishes her white liberal friends would listen to this beautiful and enlightening conversation . Thank you all. And, PS, could we maybe include a black woman next time?✌🏼🖖🏾🫶🏼❣️🙏
This is one of the most uplifting debates I have ever listened to - and perhaps the ONLY one where I have not decided there was a winner and a loser; an more enlightened view and a less defensible one.
Each of the 4 active voices in this discussion (deftly moderated by Reihan Salam) made their positions clearly and passionately - but respectfully.
Having followed Glenn’s output for over 5 years now, I have yet to hear him utter any thoughts with which I do not fully concur - but whilst I totally understand the stance which he and Bob put forward, I find myself equally accepting of the position argued by Kmele and Shelby.
At some point, it seems we must reach some degree of consensus between these two approaches, in order to defeat the radical regressiveness of the embittered, divisive hucksterism of both black and white radicals.
For me, the key lies (as always) in language - through 80% of western society, there is today vanishingly little remaining Race-hatred. But there is - and always will be - huge amounts of Tribalism - which can probably NEVER be broken down. Except by authoritarian intervention.
We tend to favour “people like us”, not in terms of skin pigmentation, but increasingly in the realms of shared upbringing; similar education; similar passions (be they sporting or musical or cultural), and the same outlook on life. These marginal “biases” have less and less to do with race, and more and more to do with fellowship - which is actually the point most of us [of a certain age] always wanted to get to.
As such, perhaps Glenn and Bob take the constrained view of Tribalism, where Kmele and Shelby are more bravely espousing the merits of the unconstrained (borrowing from Thomas Sowell’s analysis).
But no-one is wrong in this debate - the enemies are all outside the room - and logically beyond the core beliefs of the 80% represented by the four (and realistically five) gentlemen we heard today.
Thanks to you all for a measured, respectful and well-presented discussion. I, for one, feel much wiser for having observed this deeply impressive conversation!
I loved this conversation!
I find Kmele's "youthful idealism" to actually be very much in line with some of the final documented thoughts of Frederick Douglass.
In a speech given in 1894, just 5 months before his death, "The Blessings of Liberty and Education", Frederick Douglass had this to say;
"I have a word now upon another subject, and what I have to say may be more useful than palatable. That subject is the talk now so generally prevailing about races and race lines. I have no hesitation in telling you that I think the colored people and their friends make a great mistake in saying so much of race and color. I know no such basis for the claims of justice. I know no such motive for efforts at self-improvement. In this race-way they put the emphasis in the wrong place. I do now and always have attached more importance to manhood than to mere kinship or identity with any variety of the human family. RACE, in the popular sense, is narrow; humanity is broad. The one is special; the other is universal. The one is transient; the other permanent. In the essential dignity of man as man, I find all necessary incentives and aspirations to a useful and noble life. Man is broad enough and high enough as a platform for you and me and all of us. The colored people of this country should advance to the high position of the Constitution of the country. The Constitution makes no distinction on account of race or color, and they should make none.
We hear, since emancipation, much said by our modern colored leaders in commendation of race pride, race love, race effort, race superiority, race men, and the like. One man is praised for being a race man and another is condemned for not being a race man. In all this talk of race, the motive may be good, but the method is bad. It is an effort to cast out Satan by Beelzebub. The evils which are now crushing the negro to earth have their root and sap, their force and mainspring, in this narrow spirit of race and color, and the negro has no more right to excuse and foster it than have men of any other race."
Frederick Douglass also hits hard on this idea of race in "The Nations Problem" as well.
While I deeply appreciate all of these incredible men, I'm team Kmele on this one!
Frederick Douglass makes me want to cry. A transcendent intellect who put common shared humanity above petty lines in the sand, whose project was human liberty. The idea that it is mere idealism that leads one to reject sorting and rank ordering people by something as petty as a few degrees on the color wheel, two squares away on a color swatch.. if that's youthful idealism, let me be forever young like Douglass.
This chat should have been shared 1,000,000 times. And viewed 10MM … and that’s just a start
Amazing show all! As always, thank you Glen for taking the time and energy to bring conversations like these into the public consciousness.
Thank you for this discussion. I only wish it went on for longer.
I hope you can do it again soon!
Glenn, you’re fulfilling great purpose on this channel.
incredible conversation. respectful, nuanced, surprising, and it goes so much deeper then the simplified tropes that hit the headlines
What a brilliant group of men.
Need much more of this! What a great and fantastic discussion! Forums such as this should be mandatory and become a tradition until the beast is slain.
Kmele Foster opened my mind !!!
What a conversation. I found myself bouncing back and forth between the points being made. Really fantastic conversation. Well done all. Woodward's poison on venom and snake bite treatment is well made.
This is such a great conversation!
It really is. So many of these ideas I’ve felt and expressed being done by real intellectuals is such a treat!
You have an interesting channel I’m going to check out some videos. Beautiful smile too
Best expression of the problem I've ever heard at 21:30.
That's THREE words Glenn has made me look up!
Another spectacular conversation on the Glenn show. I have to say I find Glenn's argument the most compelling. Race is on its way to being irrelevant but we aren't there yet.
The parameters of when you move on from it to the more substantial issues of Kmele and Dr Steele is a tricky question to define and respond to. Because of such an ill defined point of how to move on from race, Shelby and Kmele are rationally justified to press the issue forward knowing that too big of a stop and dwelling on “race Island” might also keep us from getting to the mainland of the hard work of managing freedom and our choices and consequences and the need to claim more entirely our self determination.
By what standard? Lol It's nowhere near close. The white man is.making sure of that.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn in your opinion, when would be the right time to move on? What would you consider the bench marks or parameters in which the obsession with race needs to go to bed?
@@swcordovaf As soon as yall move on. Stop being racist and then race has less and less value.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn what are the ways you see that people are being racist that you would like them to stop?
Enlightening discussion showcasing the Conservative principle of allowing a diversity of perspectives to compete in the marketplace of ideas.
I can see how each man’s point contributes to the overall solution. Even while there are conflicting strategies designed to fit diverse applications, I agree with the end game which is meant to render melanin inconsequential in defining character.
Special kudos to Kmele Foster for articulating why he doesn’t believe in unearned pride; because pride is something an individual earns based on his personal accomplishments. For individuals in the collective to claim personal pride in others achievements simply because they belong to the collective is, as he puts it, hollow and counterfeit. Individuals in the group may honor heroes, but they are not themselves heroes until such honor inspires like action.
If we’re going to assume personal credit for the accomplishments of others just because they look like us, why do we not also assume guilt and shame and consequences for their misdeeds? Both assumptions perpetuate illusions that are out of sync with reality. The illusion is called racism. It is most “real” in the minds of those who give themselves over to it, because they prefer the illusion for whatever reason.
And the reason Shelby puts forth - that the rigors of freedom are too frightening - is a formidable one that was not at all challenged herein.
Bravo! At last a REAL discussion.
Beautiful and enlightening conversation. It would have flowed slightly smoother if they were all in the same room but I enjoyed it all the same.
Wonderful and thoughtful
Great episode, one of the best!
Everyone put forth good arguments.
Overall I ended up with Shelby and Kmele. Having been in a race relationship group at my church for the last two years I have observed how a personal focus on race distorts a person's ability to see things from other perspectives. I am not talking about radical people here, but once they lock in to the "my race " mode they seem to bring a bunch of negative baggage, much of it false or distorted, and since it rooted in "their race " (my perception here) it seems like it can't be challenged.
I think Shelby is right, race poisons the discussion from the start and hinders pursuit of many possible solutions to the problems facing the most burdened in our nation.
It might also be helpful to breakout racial content in a person's life into different categories. Perhaps identity vs definitive.
Those of us who are decendants of the great immigrant wave around 1900 often still see those backgrounds as part of our identity but they don't define any of our personal characteristics. All of my grandparents were of the first generation born in the United States and their ethnic heritage, in their minds, was an important part of who they were.
Glenn and Bob seem concerned about losing this heritage, the fact is they can always remember they're black but to function well in the culture of today and the future they will have to stop thinking it provides any definition to who they are as a person.
Just some thoughts.
Outstanding comment. It does seem, and Glenn acknowledges that Kmele and Dr Steele are farther down the road in their thoughts and leadership on this issue.
He should tell that to the racist like Tucker and Trump.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn I have never really listened much to either one of them,but I will say this , I listened to what Trump actually said in the "fine people on both sides " speech. He very specifically condemned white supremacists. The media clipped that part out.
Ask yourself, about anybody presented in the media, have they shown actual evidence of who a person is or just created a story they repeat until people think it is true.
Not a Trump fan, but have yet to see solid evidence that he is a racist.
@@dennisdose5697 Exactly, he said that the white nationalists were good people on their side.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn go and listen to the remarks. You clearly haven't done so.
Wow. I shared this conversation with my 4 kids. Thank you for sharing such wisdom and truth.
A great conversation. Thank you.
Great conversation. Excellent points made by all gentlemen.
This was awesome! Thank you so much.
I agree with the strategy executed by Mr. Woodson.
Star power. What a treat. All of my favorite intellectuals.
Great episode. Extremely diverse points of view.
“Doesn’t that sound so innocent “
Lol!
Ty for such a brilliant conversation
Kmele is exactly how I feel. As a techie I found my heritage to come from mathematicians and computer scientists, as well as, “black” leaders.
This leads me feeling a sort of identity separate from many blacks. I think I land where Glenn is but I’m very much liking what the young man is saying.
Great podcast. Loved listening to all of you. What any of you be interested in replacing if the opportunity arose the joy reads or Al Sharpton of the legacy media?
Hit send too early. It’s unfortunate that all of you make too much sense you’re not willing to make the issue of race complex and unsolvable I say unfortunately because Legacy media will likely not invite you to debate people like Joy Reid or Rev. Al. I’m hopeful that will happen.
Such an exemplary discussion.
Thank you.
Great, nuanced conversation. thanks to Glenn for putting it on his TH-cam platform.
I have been listening to Foster for a couple years now and trying to wrap my head around his concept of racelessness/post-racialism. I agree that we cannot make race the only salient point of our identity, especially when it comes to public policy. But the cultural aspect of our identity is still important to many of us.
I've wondered if Foster being an immigrant means he just doesn't "get it" when it comes to black American cultural identity.
I've lived near Philadelphia my entire life. But there's something special when I visit my aunt in rural Georgia. Seeing those ancestral lands is an experience Foster will never relate to. (Just as I could never relate to experiences of Jamaicans.)
I can't fathom where this magical "our" comes from. The "royal we" seems to have risen from the grave. There's this magical racial culture or identity everyone gestures toward but no one can define. It's an aggregation of individual experiences everyone has some share of, but without any way of knowing which people share which experiences.
Racial identity has no substance. It's like a mirage in the desert, where everyone that sees it fawns over it, agrees that it is important and reaches toward it, but noone can agree on what they saw and when anyone tries to touch it, it's nothing but dust. Except, mirages can't be weaponized into political bludgeons that leave the blood of innocents dripping off its hilt. If you believe that racial identity can exist in one group, that race is the sorting device by which a culture can be identified, without inviting other racial groups to self identify and self sort too.. if you believe that you can actually have it both ways.. I'm scared. Because the track record of that isn't pretty. Many innocent people who have happened to belong to disfavored minority groups have been lucky to be simply expelled or ostracized as a result of this obsession with racial sorting.
One might think there are more accurate proxies for a set of shared behaviors than the color of skin.
An essential conversation. Love what Glen said about "honoring the legacy of our ancestors". i wish more of Black young people choosing the gang life knew that legacy and could be inspired by it in terms of the choices they make. It may see ironic but, as a white working class woman born in 1958, raised in the South, have been inspired by the historic legacy of Black people. in about the last 10 years or so, has shifted-- & not in a way that heals but, only deepens divides.
I agree with Mr. Steel on having both sides supporting justice Thomas. Not because the color of his skin, but on his integrity, and character.
Awesome panel
I am not a conservative but i found the discussion oddly very moving.
The difference is that Jewish, Italian, Vietnamese and ther groups do not identify themselves by the color of their skin. Neither do they take their group identity out of the ashes of trauma. In other words Jews recognize themselves as being part of the rich ancient history of their forefathers. The holocaust is PART of their story, but not the defining narrative. If we are to identify ourselves it should be in geographical context or atleast cultural (hence the term African American). As the great John Henrik Clarke said, and I am paraphrasing " if we identify ourselves as having been slawned from a slave ship, everything that comes after that is progress". And I migh humbly add, it robs us of our rich history of Africans, capable of great civilizations and conquest. Not just a sad song of oppression.
I find myself wishing Roland Fryer Jr. was involved in this discussion.
And Thomas Chatterton Williams
This is such a great conversation. It would be awesome if you had Voddie Baucham in these conversations
My heart is with Kmele/Shelby and the post racial alliance who derive dignity from God and merit from individual accomplishment… but my mind can’t forget that we are clannish and competitive by nature having spent 50k yrs as hunter gatherers…and so in-group moral psychology remains the order of the day - and near future - with immutable characteristics the most obvious sigil to which we rally. Identity politics and the many forms of race grift exploit this aspect of human nature. The woke are but the latest opportunists to amplify and monetize difference. After they fall, a new group will rise to do the same, perhaps until consciousness reaches the singularity.
Perhaps a reason why some ethnic groups have done well is that they got on with their lives instead of getting involved in the political process and depending on that process and politicians to improve their lives.
Great talk. Pride's one of the seven deadly - some would say it's the quintessential sin. They MUST teach that at the black church. How about an apology to the American people for certain departures from normative behavior?
Ralph Ellison and Albert Murray would have been upset at the idea that jazz is merely a response to racism . Shelby Steele has a rather reductive idea of jazz's origins
Outstanding.
The problem is the complexity of humanity. There are so many factors that make up the individual. The discussion is how much weight do you assign one aspect of what makes up an individual, because a black Christian, soldier can have multiple interest that informs their efforts. If black agendas conflict with their Christianity then what should they do? Black identity cannot be the supreme lens of which we view society.
The flip side is Kmele has, in my opinion the better strategy. All policy discussions MUST take Kmele’s approach. My black identity along with other aspects of me however can inform the agency I employ as an individual….
Intellectual geniuses.
Heavy weights of the highest intellect accompanied by a unmatched command of language and idea weaving.
In Glenn`so closing comments, it's clear, he's not there yet. Kmele was making a very profound point in informing the panel that the factors that are present in sectors of the black/brown community are equally as present in communities where the offending party shares or faces the same challenges as the offender in the black/brown community. If we end racism, the same problems will still manifest because race is a symptom, it's not the cause. Moreover, if we educated the offender, racism and poverty would both cease to exist.
Bob seems seriously frustrated when Shelby talks, partially linked the denial to sign that letter from the conversation I'd guess.
I wish I could agree with Shelby Steele that there is nothing to be gained by organizing against the race hustlers by race. The problem is that many of those who most need to hear the anti race hustling message will not listen to anyone who is white, and the presence of a significant number of white voices in the chorus gives the race hustlers something to harp on and vilify as some combination of Privilege and Uncle Thomism. That doesn't mean that I have nothing to say as a white man, but there is a significant subset of those who can be reached that can only be reached by black only groups.
It seems that the main difference is that Woodson and Loury see a place for targeted, race-focused action against race-focused action with which they disagree where the other panelists say race should never be a factor in addressing social and political issues even as all of the panelists are looking forward to the day when race is a nonessential factor in individual identity as opposed to those who seek to establish race as the central element in individual identity.
Two see it as having some traction to move forward and the other two see it as irrationally poisoned to find a non dissonant path forward. Such a good tangle of ideas and back and forth. A masterpieces of intellectual contention.
Things got real black at The Glenn Show.
It’s hard to say who has it right here, since I don’t think there is any historical precedent to this situation. I lean towards Bob and Glenn, because the message has to reach those poorer communities that shun intellectuals and pick on kids who excel academically. Maybe role models such as these guys can pry off the grip of the democrats who are subjugating them with state dependence.
Steel's commentary on the ability to adapt too well too oppression is chilling. And the truly appropriate source of white guilt.
I thought Kmele made a rather interesting argument about unearned pride or collective achievement. I never really thought about it like that.
Kmele is non practical black kids are dying in the streets and kmele says they ain't black a bullet does not care what u call urself
I haven't gotten to that part yet, but considering that I've heard him make a similar argument before, I tend to agree.
I have no right to anything John Lewis has done. John Lewis did what he did. Same goes for Sojourner Truth, Malcolm, Nat Turner, etc. Similarly, I am not responsible for the bad things people have done before me.
Or, if I want to claim what other people have done, I MUST draw the circle wider (as Glenn would say "Dostotevsky is mine") and take responsibility for what people who "look like me do" (good and bad). I'd much rather not claim something I haven't achieved myself. Shoot, a passing familial relation would make more sense to claim the achievement.
it's very stupid and basic
Kmele based as usual.
Would love to see a video on Hispanic Identity, Italian Identity, White Identity, White Trash Identity. There is a solution.
I tend to lean to Shelby's perspective and would probably take it further. The true legacy of slavery is the maladaptive behaviors reinforced by cultural norms to adapt to brutal oppression. What came with that is generational trauma that has a psychological term now called Complex PTSD. Many communities that are descendants from slaves are suffering from this and don't even realize it because of the normalization of it in the culture.
I think a good litmus test is to ask ourselves; would we be ok with white people doing this? For some reason, when you frame these questions using white people, the answer becomes clear.
Are we ok with white people saying they are proud of being white?
Are we ok with white people feeling collective pride for the contributions to society made by other white people?
Are we ok with white people forming political coalitions based on their skin color?
Are we ok with a "white history month"?
I understand that race-based identitarianism is necessary at times when there is a group of people being discriminated against based on their racial identification (or any other group identity), but if we are talking about how we move forward as a society, it is simply untenable to have special privileges given to certain groups indefinitely.
Of course, there is the possibility that due to the way our species functions, we will ultimately not be able to completely shed these group identifications. If that is the case, we need to have healthy identifications for all groups. You can not deny group identification to only white people. They will ultimately form a racial identification if they are being targeted for chastisement based on their racial identification.
As a middle aged white conservative, I can say after reading the letter condemning the attacks on Clarence Thomas, there was nothing in the letter I disagree with. But I don't think adding my signature would have done anything to make that letter more powerful or persuasive. I used to teach social studies at a high school in the South Bronx. None of my students were considered "white" unless of course you considered white Hispanics to be white. When the subject of race came up I told my students that their race only mattered under 2 circumstances. First it mattered if someone was going to treat them differently because of it or if it mattered to them as a matter of ethnic pride. I don't think my opinion about their ethnic pride should matter, but I very strongly believe that they should not be treated differently because of their perceived race,
What do you know, I have finally found something I disagree with Shelby Steele about. But as I think Glenn said, that disagreement is merely a disagreement about tactics. I will end by broadening the snake venom metaphor. Dosis sola facit venenum (only the dose makes the poison). There are many deadly poisons that are life preserving drugs in lower doses. My mother took .125 mg of Digoxin every other day for years to treat her atrial fibrillation. That was true even though Digoxin is derived from the deadly poison Foxglove. Unfortunately, for now, we need to remain conscious of race if we are going to fight for a race blind future.
I am probably 25 years older than you, a Sixties liberal, and among my past jobs I taught in predominantly Black and brown schools in Los Angeles. As a lawyer, some of my best clients (civil law, not criminal defense) have been Black and not affluent (but also not poor). And I disagree with you. I think we cannot heal the wound of racism by scratching at it repeatedly. There is not a fog of racism that we all move through every day. It’s a myth. There are definitely racist individuals but our society is no longer overwhelmingly racist. It is counterproductive to keep pounding that drum.
@@pamelaroyce5285 I am not sure what you disagree with me about. I think the fact that this country elected a Black man as president, twice, is pretty strong evidence that racists and racism don't have the power they used to have. That is not to say that racism no longer exists. But the racial problems in this country are primarily about dealing with the legacies of slavery, segregation and racism. In a few months, the Supreme Court is going to rule that discriminating on the basis of race, even to help disadvantaged minorities, is illegal or unconstitutional (depending on who is doing the discriminating). I think in the long run that will be a very healthy thing. In the meantime if universities want to offer extra help to disadvantaged applicants, they will still be able to do that. But they will have to base it on the obstacles the applicants faced and overcame without looking at race or ethnicity. That will be significantly harder for admissions offices, but it would be both fairer and lead to less resentment. But what will probably happen is that even more elite schools will stop requiring the SATs so that it will harder to prove that they are discriminating for or against anyone based on race.
@@michaelmcchesney6645 I meant that I disagree with you about being conscious of race until it doesn’t matter anymore. In 1968 we thought that. But it turns out that some of our interventions, such as affirmative action admissions to universities, did not get the results we had hoped for. According to John McWhorter, after California abolished affirmative action, Black and brown students actually performed better, stayed in their courses of study, and acquired degrees more successfully and in greater numbers. Constantly looking for possible slights does not improve anyone’s lot. The apparent race-based (that were also class-based) biases in standardized tests such as the SAT were eliminated decades ago. It isn’t the 1960s anymore. Being conscious of race until we aren’t anymore is like the alchemist telling the apprentice that the spell for transmuting lead into gold will work as long as they don’t think about blue monkeys. Naturally, the apprentice will never be able to complete the incantation without thinking of the thing they aren’t supposed to think about. I just don’t think it’s logical. Thank you for your civil reply. One thing I have noticed in the comments in this particular page is that the comments and side conversations are intelligent and polite even where there is disagreement.
@@pamelaroyce5285 I don't think we disagree or at least not very much. I think you can be conscious of race without being obsessed with it. What I meant was that we should keep track of racial outcomes so that we can be aware of both progress toward equality and investigate racial disparities that may be caused by current racism. Of course many associated with BLM see racism everywhere. I don't think that is healthy. I grew up in the Bronx in the 1970s and 80s. I still live there. I remember what this city was like before a currently insane former mayor took office. Trust me, the last thing I want to do is defund the police. But better training and more effective discipline? I am all for that.
also other cultures, ethnic groups, move and mobilize off of shared identity, Jewish folks, Arabic folks, Asians of different denominations, all are ambitious but still staying in lock step code on how they prefer to move, some even make it a rule in their household to stay amongst their own, so I’m not bothered by Robert Woodson perspective amongst building off a shared identity, even if it’s race, race may seem like a base, a minimal or insignificant base depending on who you ask, but what identity that is also being used to mobilize, is unique and correct? One can argue religion is made up and there is no god, so why credit religious groups for coming together? Why do blacks have to be the one singled out for a frivolous tribalism? It makes no sense if everyone else can play the game of tribalism but not blacks
When I was growing up in the 1980s, my friends and I had no issue looking up to black people, whether sports figures or movie stars (we're white). A few years ago when I worked on contract for a black publication, I had to review every article. I wasn't too shocked that the black celebrities never mentioned a single white person that influenced them. In one case, a black hip hop star was "accused" of being influenced by Bob Segar, and the singer insisted it was a lie and that "I ain't influenced by no white boy!" It actually went into print. It's just the way it is. White people are color blind; black and brown people are not. It may have to do with not being a majority. Maybe the roles will shift in the future. Who knows. I still love Richard Pryor and Thomas Sowell.
"White people are color blind; black and brown people are not."
Yikes, the irony!
@@rastaoiiii craziest statement of 2022. And this person truly believes it.
@@TrillEverything and you believe Democrats are saviors. Talk about fucking scary
I think the argument is absurd by Shelby especially against the signing of a letter. If we are individuals and race does not matter. What is the difference between a letter with all African American vs a letter with a few European Americans? He is proving the point Bob is making by showing it is a difference between the scenario even for himself
To me feeling pride over the contribution of a "group" to something I personally had nothing to do with, nor was I even alive, yet, to have anything to do with it, sounds almost (or perhaps completely) the same as national pride. Being proud of one's place of birth/home country, when it's an accident. It's like, "Oh, I'm proud to be Hungarian!" Why would I be? Because of '56, perhaps? A lot of Hungarians when they beat their chests about the Revolution of '56, do so talking about it as though Hungary was the only damn nation that was doing something during that time, ignoring all the rest. Sure, their contribution was not insignificant. It was significant. But, feeling pride, and feeling entitled to that pride, is the abandonment of things like meritocracy, achieving something and contributing something either by one's damn self, or with the help of others, and then feeling pride over it, having lived and done it. But, doing it for something that's in recent history or even in the distant past is like someone is still living IN that past, harping back to past/lost glory. And apart from being unhealthy, mentally, it is also unproductive and unprogressive for their present. By that thinking, any non-black person should congratulate and thank any random black person for some contributions made decades past and that black person personally should be proud of it. Why? Chances are they might not even know a damn thing about it. Chances are that neither party have heard about it and that's partly a failure of the education system, but I digress.
Our problems as a nation can be boiled down to two causes: the bad and still deteriorating state of the family; and, the dismal state of K-12 education. Both family and education are race independent in that, while the state of the black family may be worse, the state of both the white and hispanic family is also bad and getting worse. Again, while education in black inner city neighborhoods may be dreadful, the same can be said of education for both white and hispanic children. From what I can see myself, even the state of education for children of "the elites" is far below what it should be. Both family and education are third rail issues, particularly family but also education because of powerful vested interests in the status quo. Poorly educated people cannot be expected to be able to deal with such challenges since life is so challenging and children from dysfunctional families cannot be expected to perform well in school. There will be exceptions, but the real quality of a democratic nation is based on the average, not the elite. For the average citizen, education quality and family stability are heading down, not up. If we do not fix them, and soon, then this country has seen its zenith. The nihilists who dominate so many of our institutions understand this well, which explains the nonsense they preach and the people they support financially. Their end game is total destruction of our culture and so far, they are getting their way while we debate about race.
Wow. That simple. If it were that simple....
@@TheOriginalCryptoPimp Yes, that simple. The trouble begins there. The Founders knew and several even expected it. The ancient Greeks knew it.
And I might add, the family issue is one of the political “third rails”. Hence it is intractable. I am surprised this needs to be said. The late Senator Pat Moynihan wrote about it decades ago and it is not much worse. Do some reading. Information is easy to find.
Oh, and Moynihan was pilloried by fellow Dems for even mentioning it. Not much has changed since.
I think what undermines both the development of families and better schools is the hoarding of wealth by the 1%. When we had a decent tax rate under Eisenhower, who also had a great platform that would sound very liberal today, more people advanced across the board. It is class war that is the driver of all this.
I’m not Black, I’m OJ.
I have a crush on Glenn . . . .
Me too, in a proper way
Why are there shows where all or mainly women comment on politics - The View, The Talk, Bonnie Urbe's show on PBS, the noon FOX show - but not one for any other "group"? I'd love to see this group (or variations on it) do a weekly podcast talking on ANY topic - the Ukraine war, crypto ponzi schemes, China - not just "blackness." Though I enjoyed this discussion as well. It's my Christmas wish!
Pigeon hold
There are no more real barriers to ethnic integration by marriage, but toxic and damaging attitudes persist even among these mixed, married couples as spouses often reflexively embrace, support and adopt the toxic attitudes of victimhood which their spouse holds dear. It takes a spouse with a very strong intellectual identity and moral constitution to reject these beloved myths, prejudices and refuse to give them oxygen.
I really don't know where he's been, but now we see what's going on in Tennessee racism still exists
Recently former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo challenged Randi Weingarten to a debate. Perhaps Mr. Foster in particular might join this challenge or propose his own to the person that Mr. Pompeo calls the "most dangerous woman in America." American education is nearing a kind of depraved irrelevance. And a very expensive one.
The term black on black crime usually follows as an argument to the statement that black men are incarcerated at a disproportionate rate for the exact crimes. The black murder rate (50% of all murders by 13% of the population) is also disproportionate as are drug dealing crimes, gang crimes etc.. Now, the disservice of focusing at all on these negative things is that it gives the perception that black people are violent as a whole (or can be so stranger danger is heightened) when most are not. Pitbulls also have the same stereotype. They are top in killing people (primarily because Chihuahuas lack the mass to kill ;) ) and they kill about 30 people a year (10 year average) but there are 18 million pitbulls in America who do not kill. Same for black murders, somewhere around 5k a year but there are 44 million black Americans in America. Same goes go white people in this sense, there about 6k triple K members but about 70 million white Americans. who do not identify as triple K but we need to be afraid of all 70 million, right? Each person is responsible for their own sin, not all those who look like them.
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery - Thomas Jefferson