Glenn and John are at it again - thoughtful, wise conversations about difficult , emotionaly - laden subjects. What a joy it is to have these two great teachers.
I repost Glenn’s videos on twitter and send it to my friends. He’s very sincere and interesting as well as being a great, intelligent, open minded intellectual .
Wonderful conversation - just what you'd expect from these guys. One thing that struck me was was Glen's reflection on how well served he's been in his life as a public intellectual by the rigorous disciplinary training he underwent in economics. Sadly, so many commentators and pundits (both on the right and the left) think they can skip the hard work. The ability to hurl insults and shout down your opponents is no substitute. Thank you Glen, John, and Erec.
This is deep!!! Glen and John are both brilliant - That being said, I think it explains a lot for me that Glen said he was hurt by being called a sell out... He's so brilliant and comes in so hot and passionate on his show but when he gets his time in the spotlight on Bill Maher or some other platform he gets shy and mild mannered. I wish he would take John's attitude towards critique and show the world his true feelings. He is eloquent as hell and the world needs to hear his message, raw and unfiltered!
As always, thank you both for the conversation. Around the 37-minute mark, Dr. McWhorter brings up the importance of curiosity. That is such an important word for today. Genuine curiosity allows the information we gather to create new ways of thinking that we previously did not have, which is quite powerful. Today, it seems easier than ever to default to confirmation bias--I'm even guilty of it myself at times, although I try to challenge myself on it when I think it makes its appearance.
My deceased best friend (my mother's age) used to say to me, "You're curious about everything. Most people are curious about nothing." Curiosity is pretty much the definition of intelligence, and rare it is.
As much as I love McWhorter for his kindness and compassion towards everyone, I deeply appreciate the logic and data seriousness of Glenn Loury. I hope I am not misrepresenting their ideas in this comment. But I also think there's a generation difference. Which is fine. But above all, thank you for sharing this discussion. It's important.
Thanks Glenn, Erec, and John. I have an MA in English (teaching), and you three give me hope. I'm not teaching and probably won't be in the venues I wanted to teach in because I can't "keep my head down." I just can't!
Wonderful. McWhorter's remark: "if you're going to do race and not be curious you'll miss a lot"--that goes for everything. Writing is so often discovering what's important on a topic--a method of discovery. By the end of the essay you've "got it"--for the moment. Then you go back to curiosity.
I wish I could spend an evening with these three, talking and having drinks. They are absolutely incredible. I learn so much about myself from listening to them. I have a huge struggle with my siblings. My sister in particular who is a highschool English teacher in an inner city school district. She has gone completely woke and I had the unfortunate experience of going on a 12 hour road trip. I lost it the last half hour after being told a bunch of her woke beliefs and that I am a racist. I wish I could have listened to this before the road trip. Thanks for this!
The Teachers Unions are so woke!! I’m so sorry your sister is going down the rabbit hole of racism! ❤️🙏🏼🇺🇸 These Unions, and teachers are corrupting kids, especially in Jr High and on!! I’m a retired 3,4, & 5 grade teacher, and only taught in at-risks schools! We can’t poison these kids with hate! 🙏🏼❤️
Excellent presentation of ideas! This is how academic conversations should work. Loury, McWhorter, and Smith's views overlap, but there are sufficient intellectual and life experience differences on stage to give GRIT and INTIMACY to their various answers to valuable questions.
In the 00s I spent many hours listening to John McWhorter's linguistics lectures. Just amazing stuff, really enjoyed it and learned a lot about language and people. Some time around 2010 I checked out what he was up to and saw him write about cultural issues, but I put it to one side thinking I'm not black myself so I'll take it as an anecdote and keep my mind open. Some years later, things are a bit wacky now and I think these 3 guys right here are so enlightening.
Dr. Loury makes a touching yet boldly revealing & honest point, which I admire him for admitting, because it needs to be addressed: Namely, it HURTS to be insulted by someone who projects their beliefs onto someone else’s motivations by blaming/shaming that person’s “wrong” views, & labelling them ignorant or saying they’re just trying to get attention for being a contrarian; or that they must be a sellout token for some group they hate - often really bad groups with which you would never espouse their views… but they seem to think they have the ability to be your mind-reader, & they have become convinced that their views are the only possible logical views & you must be faking what you’re representing or that they are just right & you are clearly WRONG, which is painful to feel rejected & makes you so sad that they would assume that you’re hopelessly flawed in an unredeemable sense! This is actually THEM being ignorant and prejudiced! Yet the psychological damage they are inflicting on others who they are HURTING is real & causes a huge amount of social harm on society that is cumulative on such victims like myself & Dr. Loury, so please try not to act like a sociopathic narcissist towards others by presuming to know what or why they think differently from you… it’s not a victimless act & it must be addressed in order to heal us as a nation. Always assume that it is just as likely that YOU are the more ignorant person, & show respect without destroying the psyche of the person you may disagree with❣️🙏🏻🤴🏻👼🏻
“High handed move of ad hominem attack that does not allow a rebuttal. “ Thank you. I want to send this video to the head of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Treating their journalists and listeners/viewers very high handedly.
I would love to see John create a series of children’s videos. Possibly several volumes aimed at several different age groups to counter in a child friendly way some of the propaganda that they will be exposed to. Glenn that goes for you too, you’re a friendly face and you both can share wisdom that can be appreciated across our entire society.
Great conversation from 3 really outstanding minds. So impressive how these guys can effortlessly generate compelling and balanced arguments and explanations of very deep/complex matters on the spot - AND make it all so interesting. So much more intellectually nourishing than the embittered repetitive ranting from the exhaustingly strident activist types.
They're not solving problems -- they're serving a market. They repeatedly rehash the same topics without any examination of the efficacy of their efforts -- while you all act like they're some of the greatest minds to ever live. And before you make any assumptions -- Glenn Loury once called my writing "brilliant" and was "blown away" by my site and signed up. How many of you can say that? So maybe I see something you don't -- and neither do they.
I love these men, they do speak with great intelligence, but to me they still speak with enough emotion to make it easy to understand and they make sense even to one one without the intellectual knowledge!!💕💕
By far the most refreshing thing in this discussion is three nerds talking about intellectual problems that have NOTHING TO DO with politics, racial or otherwise. My motto is "great minds discuss ideas [logos and ethos]; average minds discuss events [especially politics]; little minds discuss people [i.e. personal gossip, pathos in the absence of the other two]." Long live ideas. I hope they can get back to them. (P.S. I love the academic advise to "fake it til you make it" --that's what I did--made my writing look like I was doing deconstruction when I wasn't).
Brilliant! Been listening to TGS for a while now. I’m never disappointed. Always learn something new, something profound, something that gives me hope. Oh, and something that makes me giggle.
I enjoyed this discussion ,and let me be up front , I'm a 50 something white man ,I grew up in the inner city and consider some of my closest friends /Brothers are black /Hispanic/Biracial and have battelled with drugs until I found myself in Jail for a couple years. That's enough about me. I keep hearing both sides of the isle using this word "our people " ,I 'm not throwing stones !! but why can't we refer to each other as my fellow person and I keep listening to these conversation about change , So Let's move on and make the change and be our brothers keeper" PERIOD" we don't have time for the past ,because my ancestor were wrong to divide man and women / black and white /asian and indians WHATEVER we are in this thing called LIFE together. If we want a better future we need to work on ourselves and not others, Our differences are what make people interesting "and not DIFFERENT or wrong . I don't have to agree with you to extend my hand and say HELLO
Imagine the ARROGANCE it takes for you to disrespect the ideas of your father in law, when that father in law is Glenn Loury, arguably one of the most brilliant men modernity has ever seen. Mind blowing.
When you have been brainwashed or infected by the woke mind virus, you lose track of reality!! You think up is down, and down is up!! Even if God came down to hearth to show you the truth, you wouldn’t believe him……
It's hard to find an example of a wiser person more dedicated to the vision of black American prosperity and well-being than Glenn Lourey. Fortunately, it's not entirely impossible, because Lourey platforms under-sung heroes who are changing peoples lives measurably for the good on his podcast. Agree or disagree with Lourey's ideas (I lean toward trusting his perception and prescriptions), you can't doubt this gentleman's motives or efforts.
That’s exactly how lots of us, Russian people, who are against Putin and his war feel, being attacked by the Russian pro-Putin compatriots. The problem of the forced «identity» so primitively understood, and its forced loyalty goes far beyond you, brave and honest guys being insulted for not complying in your thinking and acting to the Elect (loving and reading John’s books!). It’s a very important issue of Morden tribalism and the remnants of totalitarianism some parts of human souls still so yarn for. Thank you for your books, intelligence, honesty and bravery.❤
Part of the moral stain of racism is that one big motivation for restricting gun ownership has always been racism. The Dred Scott ruling that blacks are not people specifically said that this is because blacks must be kept from owning guns. The Black Panthers, to this very day, openly carry (including "assault rifles"), at their protests, demonstrations, and when protecting polling places.
It took TH-cam five whole days to send this my way despite my watching everything John and Glenn have done either together, or separately...Im annoyed. But so pleased I am now able to see it. On the while "pathos, ethos"etc, point. I firmly believe there is more genuniness and humanity and empathy coming from this side of the discussion versus the other. These people are performing an act. Granted, some have got very well practiced at it - they know how to manage cadence, leave pauses pregant for others to infer the meaning. But does not stop it from becoming a pantomime. A llvery profitable, in terms of real cash or social kudos, but a performance no less. Further it benefits *them*, and not anyone else. What Glenn and John do is not for cash (just look at the settings of the pocast, Johns or Glenns shirts etc), and neither is it for social brownie-points - we all know that they are hated by "the other side". The pathos is on one side of this for me, and the ethos and especially the logos.
As Glenn and John have said in the past about the Obamas, no one is more gifted at performing the narrative in public than them. When Michelle said she fears for her daughters' safety in America due to racism, that's when I realized it's more than smoke and mirrors, it's an elaborate production.
Hey Erec, How in the hell can you see Loury as cold? What's so amazing about Loury is his intellectual rigor while at the same time he acknowledges his emotional reality, for example when his son-in-law calls him a sellout...now McWhorter, on the other hand, repeatedly denies that he feels "sad" or "angry"...the gentleman doth protest too much
I love jazz ! There are great white musicians , there are great Black musicians , I am a 'white' and I've played clarinet , jazz clarinet all my adult life , I'm 77 and of course , love JAZZ ... Duke , the Count , Stan Getz , Hampton Hawes , thousands more ... Sonny Clark , so so many ... JAZZ IS NOT DEAD
Most people seem to want the same goal in tthat they want everyone to have sufficient opportunities and to flourish, they just disagree on how to get there.
I wonder how Glenn measures the prestige of Harvard today and the Kennedy School today versus his previous nod that Harvard being higher rated than the Kennedy School in the 1980s.
In light of Professor McWhorter caution about seeking tenure before speaking freely, a correlation is thatsome of the people who appear to be "woke" are actually secret critics who are biding their time. I teach as an adjunct instructor retired from full time work. I don't rely on my faculty pay to live. So I express myself openly about my unorthodox views. I sense that some of the full time faculty are afraid of me taking over some of their courses. But the courses I do teach are not taught by anyone else in the university.
Glenn's pronouncement of our future is more real and prescient than we might want to admit. Where are the responsible academic and socially literate who will speak out against "bad ideas hurting people". Listening to these gentleman gives me a chance to breath and infuse some hope that "the mob" becomes diffused with the weight of good healthy discourse that enlightens and sheds light. As a white, retired educator of 36 years I get tired of always having to begin a discussion with the indictment of my race framing the answer. Some of that is always true and relevant but when it degrades into a defensive position under the pressure of numbers insisting you demure to a specific narrative, it is sad and disheartening. That is what I felt when Glenn was describing as being hurt. I hold to a quote from James Baldwin that as a history teacher I always tried to keep in my discourses with students I was lucky to have of many diverse racial and ethnic backgrounds. " In short, we, the black and the white, deeply need each other here if we are really to become a nation- if we are really, that is, to achieve our identity, our maturity, as men and women. To create one nation has proved to be a hideously difficult task; there is no need now to create two". Glenn is correct when he says the world is moving fast and there are those "who are not going to wait" Thank you gentlemen for yet another wonderful discussion.
Here's the thing about the section of the talk about comedy. To me, those who object to a comic for saying something are objecting to the wrong person. The comic's defense is "I wouldn't say it if it didn't get a laugh." The objection, if there should be any, should be with the audience for laughing at what was said. And maybe it should not be an objection. Maybe the would-be objector should take a step back and ask him or her self "What underlying truth has this joke revealed about that makes the people laugh?" Maybe the "teachable moment" (man, I hate that phrase) is for the would-be objector and not everyone else.
I was at a U of Michigan Commencement Ceremony in which Carole Simpson gave the address. Based on the content of her speech she portrayed herself as a terrible human being. On the other hand, like Hiter was, she is quite intelligent.
The Buffalo shooting by a racist killing black people who were strangers to him, took place under a New York state law that made it virtually impossible for the ordinary people who were murdered to have carried a handgun for self defense. At the same time, the killer was not deterred by the illegality of carrying a gun because he was already not deterred by the laws prohibiting murder. The perversity of the New York law was that it assured people intent on murder that their victims will never shoot back. That law was proved to be totally ineffective to prevent mass murders. The US Supreme Court put it out of its misery when it killed the law for violating the basic right of Americans to carry firearms for self defense. The people of New York should be glad to be rid of such a stupid law that enabled mass murder with guns rather than deterring it. Compare the Buffalo event with the event in Indiana where a single armed shopper killed a murderer within a minute after he began his attack. If New York had allowed lawful concealed carry by law abiding citizens, the Buffalo attacker might have been killed earlier, saving the lives of a dozen Black people. But New York government does not trust ordinary Black citizens to defend themselves, even though the state has no ability to protect them against determined criminals.
46:56 Jazz began its slow death in 1967. It's now a dead language, mostly performed as an archaic "Folk Music"; killed partly by a pernicious orthodoxy regardless of Sudhalter's book, "Lost Chords". What happened to IAJE, my friend, check it out. I was there, as its life was drained out, and knew some of its killers, personally. James Brown, one of the Killers, changing the beat from 2/4, to 1/3. "Get On The Good Foot"
Ignorance is holding onto limited perspectives even when the facts contradict those views. In claiming blanket views, rather than experiencing individual perspectives and ideas keeps people from truly understanding. It's like looking at the forest and saying it's just trees. Meanwhile there are so many things going on that you simply cannot see from far away. You have to get into something from lots of perspectives to appreciate a view that differs from yours. Ignorance is the unwillingness to do that. It's like religion in that it requires belief rather than engagement.
I'm gay and have been a "gay UT" since I was a teenager in the 1980s, a label given to me by members of my gay youth group when I said I'd like to see gay marriage legalized one day. It was 1988. I took from that a need for minorities to rebel against mainstream society even when that society has gay youth groups in 1988. I imagined where that would lead, and despite the darkness I foresaw it was nothing like what's happened to Democrats. Ironically, I've believed for years that the real UTs were the minorities who follow eurocentric white ideology like Marxism, the platform for the Black Panthers by the way. And the big question is, especially for Black Americans, what are minorities supposed to do if success and contentment inside the US iscregarded as a sellout? Are we on a forever treadmill of discontent, misery in mink, suffering in a hot tub? What's left otherwise other than the ghetto where at least you don't "sellout"?
Since this was a discussion on race; I really hope that there were many blacks in the audience. Also, John McWhorter is not a conservative and has never voted for a Republican. This makes me hopeful that American liberals are not all crazy leftists.
The left is the clever path; the right, the sincere. The left manipulates others, using any device necessary, for the sake of self-service, nevermind the outer appearance of compassion etc.; the right sees all things as being worthy of love, deserving of freedom, all being created the same; service to others. A study of the Kabbalah would prove fruitful in understanding the foundation of such matters.
While I agree with victimization being a setback in the black community, I also recognize that many black intellectuals feel the need to validate themselves through the ideals, acceptance and adoration of white people.
I think that accusation is thrown around so lightly nowadays. It makes that stupid definition of "what is considered white" (being on time, thinking logically, etc.) seem as if it's actually accurate. Blackness isn't ghetto, overly emotional, unintelligent, etc. We have got to stop both defining ourselves (and allowing others to) as these things. We can be whoever we want to be ... that is true freedom.
I think John McWhorter is too nice about this.. but who am I to say how he should respond. I respect his position and enjoy the conversation from these guys. I think people who don't want to respect alternative viewpoints from the likes of the panel above, feel threatened that there are some people who don't buy what they are selling (bought into). As a white person, I think white people sometimes feel like they have to align with some kind of left-leaning Black thought, because the ad-hominem attacks coming at them from the anti-racist left are pretty mean. Essentially, you are some form of a racist or white-supremacist thinking-person, unless you agree and act on what I'm saying. The message from progressive race activists is basically that you are a dog-shit racist white person, and anything related to "whiteness" is a pejorative, and that you as a white person in the modern world should be made to feel guilty for the sins of America's past. It's mean, but I'm not surprised white people so easily fall for it. It's empowering to feel like you can tell this to people's faces and get away with it. As soon as another Black person (especially someone prominent) doesn't agree with that message, it questions your standing as a white person, which also means your community and personal beliefs. Easier to throw ad-hominem attacks at someone like these guys, than actually think for yourself and be open-minded. I can't believe some people would throw insults like they do at the panelists here because they are not of the same thought.. unbelievable.
Am I the only one bothered by the way the "moderator" keeps trying, overtly, to interject himself to answer each question? When he said "be three black men", I thought he had enough sense that it was a fun joke, or momentary interlude. But after they answer each question, he then takes up some time to answer it himself. Which might be tolerable, if he was really adding anything. But his input is only diluting the overall quality a bit. I might watch him a bit if he had his own show, but he's not on part with those two.
Glenn totally captured it. The Chinese are not going to wait. So, while we discuss what pronouns to use and try to convince people that today's racism is no better than it was in the 1950s, the Chinese are producing scientist and engineers.
Understanding the other side in a political or racial debate also must include our biological makeup. Liberals generally have a larger anterior cingulate gyrus, which encourages new ideas and experiences, while conservatives generally have a larger right amygdala, which drives fight/flight reactions, leading to superior stability in jobs and marriage, as well as other positive traits. One is not better than the other, since each manifests a different list of superior behavioral traits. What is important is that we take biology into account when debating our opposition. They are likely better in different ways and therefore deserve to be listened to and understood when debating them. This video claims a ~70% accuracy rate in guessing a Liberal versus a Conservative from JUST a brain MRI: th-cam.com/video/kI-un8rHP14/w-d-xo.html
![Cancel Culture and Wokeness [engl.]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/12LAXsiDRPU/mqdefault.jpg)
![NISAMANEE - TADA (ท้าดา) [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hcQHEPMmJpU/mqdefault.jpg)
John McWhorter is a national treasure.
Loury too.
I have always thought Thomas Sowell was a national treasure and now I can add another one so I agree with you.
Smith is a national treasure in the making as well!
Glenn and John are at it again - thoughtful, wise conversations about difficult , emotionaly - laden subjects. What a joy it is to have these two great teachers.
Wow. That right there was one of the most enlightened conversations I've heard in eons. Thank you, Gentlemen. The world is a bit better for it.
I echo your "Wow", then nearly whimpered after Doctor Loury's first comment.
Really? They are not saying anything new. They are race hustlers of a conservative bent.
The fact this amazing conversation between intellectuals only has 20k views is a referendum on American intellectualism.
I repost Glenn’s videos on twitter and send it to my friends. He’s very sincere and interesting as well as being a great, intelligent, open minded intellectual .
Yeah the academic space is kinda going away. I miss it. I'mma sit here until these two disappear tho....
I saw this in person, and it was phenomenal!!
LUCKY
Wish I was present, too.
As a Retired teacher, this conversation is so important when it comes to our kids! These men are amazing, and intelligent! ❤️❤️
The news media definitely doesn’t want to show our brown skin males in this light.💪🏾
Wonderful conversation - just what you'd expect from these guys. One thing that struck me was was Glen's reflection on how well served he's been in his life as a public intellectual by the rigorous disciplinary training he underwent in economics. Sadly, so many commentators and pundits (both on the right and the left) think they can skip the hard work. The ability to hurl insults and shout down your opponents is no substitute. Thank you Glen, John, and Erec.
Thank you God for John and Glenn. Exceptionally Great men.
This was a highlight of the conference. They were so authentic, honest, brave, and well, correct.
This is deep!!! Glen and John are both brilliant - That being said, I think it explains a lot for me that Glen said he was hurt by being called a sell out... He's so brilliant and comes in so hot and passionate on his show but when he gets his time in the spotlight on Bill Maher or some other platform he gets shy and mild mannered. I wish he would take John's attitude towards critique and show the world his true feelings. He is eloquent as hell and the world needs to hear his message, raw and unfiltered!
As always, thank you both for the conversation. Around the 37-minute mark, Dr. McWhorter brings up the importance of curiosity. That is such an important word for today. Genuine curiosity allows the information we gather to create new ways of thinking that we previously did not have, which is quite powerful. Today, it seems easier than ever to default to confirmation bias--I'm even guilty of it myself at times, although I try to challenge myself on it when I think it makes its appearance.
My deceased best friend (my mother's age) used to say to me, "You're curious about everything. Most people are curious about nothing." Curiosity is pretty much the definition of intelligence, and rare it is.
As much as I love McWhorter for his kindness and compassion towards everyone, I deeply appreciate the logic and data seriousness of Glenn Loury. I hope I am not misrepresenting their ideas in this comment. But I also think there's a generation difference. Which is fine. But above all, thank you for sharing this discussion. It's important.
Thanks Glenn, Erec, and John. I have an MA in English (teaching), and you three give me hope. I'm not teaching and probably won't be in the venues I wanted to teach in because I can't "keep my head down." I just can't!
God bless you John and Glenn and Erec , I dig you guys !
This was absolutely phenomenal and excellent conversation. Thank you!!!
Glenn Loury is King of the Mic Drop.
Sane, sober, smart, funny and compassionate.
Loury's take on listening is very important. Noted; I could be a better man in that respect.
What a wonderful model of intelligent, respectful discourse.
Wonderful. McWhorter's remark: "if you're going to do race and not be curious you'll miss a lot"--that goes for everything. Writing is so often discovering what's important on a topic--a method of discovery. By the end of the essay you've "got it"--for the moment. Then you go back to curiosity.
Well put.
I wish I could spend an evening with these three, talking and having drinks. They are absolutely incredible. I learn so much about myself from listening to them.
I have a huge struggle with my siblings. My sister in particular who is a highschool English teacher in an inner city school district. She has gone completely woke and I had the unfortunate experience of going on a 12 hour road trip. I lost it the last half hour after being told a bunch of her woke beliefs and that I am a racist. I wish I could have listened to this before the road trip. Thanks for this!
The Teachers Unions are so woke!! I’m so sorry your sister is going down the rabbit hole of racism! ❤️🙏🏼🇺🇸 These Unions, and teachers are corrupting kids, especially in Jr High and on!! I’m a retired 3,4, & 5 grade teacher, and only taught in at-risks schools! We can’t poison these kids with hate! 🙏🏼❤️
@@michellemartinezjunco5144 thank you!
Hang in there! Had a similar experience with my brother…
When TH-cam suggests me a Glenn Loury video, I just watch it without an iota of thought.
Excellent dialogue. Seekers of truth.
Excellent presentation of ideas! This is how academic conversations should work. Loury, McWhorter, and Smith's views overlap, but there are sufficient intellectual and life experience differences on stage to give GRIT and INTIMACY to their various answers to valuable questions.
Wisdom and Inteligence! You give us hope for a better world, my respect and afection. Thank you!
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.
Superb meeting of three great minds. Thanks.
Three heroes.
Always enjoy listening to these guys.
What amazing men. Love both of them. The moderator is good guy to.
Tis a fine podcast , Erec ... Glenn is a very good listener and that is an important quality , indeed ...
In the 00s I spent many hours listening to John McWhorter's linguistics lectures. Just amazing stuff, really enjoyed it and learned a lot about language and people. Some time around 2010 I checked out what he was up to and saw him write about cultural issues, but I put it to one side thinking I'm not black myself so I'll take it as an anecdote and keep my mind open. Some years later, things are a bit wacky now and I think these 3 guys right here are so enlightening.
Dr. Loury makes a touching yet boldly revealing & honest point, which I admire him for admitting, because it needs to be addressed: Namely, it HURTS to be insulted by someone who projects their beliefs onto someone else’s motivations by blaming/shaming that person’s “wrong” views, & labelling them ignorant or saying they’re just trying to get attention for being a contrarian; or that they must be a sellout token for some group they hate - often really bad groups with which you would never espouse their views… but they seem to think they have the ability to be your mind-reader, & they have become convinced that their views are the only possible logical views & you must be faking what you’re representing or that they are just right & you are clearly WRONG, which is painful to feel rejected & makes you so sad that they would assume that you’re hopelessly flawed in an unredeemable sense! This is actually THEM being ignorant and prejudiced! Yet the psychological damage they are inflicting on others who they are HURTING is real & causes a huge amount of social harm on society that is cumulative on such victims like myself & Dr. Loury, so please try not to act like a sociopathic narcissist towards others by presuming to know what or why they think differently from you… it’s not a victimless act & it must be addressed in order to heal us as a nation. Always assume that it is just as likely that YOU are the more ignorant person, & show respect without destroying the psyche of the person you may disagree with❣️🙏🏻🤴🏻👼🏻
I'm so glad you guys are talking about this. This is a conversation to be heard.
“High handed move of ad hominem attack that does not allow a rebuttal. “ Thank you. I want to send this video to the head of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Treating their journalists and listeners/viewers very high handedly.
This was a treat
I do love you guys ...
I would love to see John create a series of children’s videos. Possibly several volumes aimed at several different age groups to counter in a child friendly way some of the propaganda that they will be exposed to. Glenn that goes for you too, you’re a friendly face and you both can share wisdom that can be appreciated across our entire society.
Great conversation from 3 really outstanding minds.
So impressive how these guys can effortlessly generate compelling and balanced arguments and explanations of very deep/complex matters on the spot - AND make it all so interesting.
So much more intellectually nourishing than the embittered repetitive ranting from the exhaustingly strident activist types.
They're not solving problems -- they're serving a market. They repeatedly rehash the same topics without any examination of the efficacy of their efforts -- while you all act like they're some of the greatest minds to ever live. And before you make any assumptions -- Glenn Loury once called my writing "brilliant" and was "blown away" by my site and signed up. How many of you can say that? So maybe I see something you don't -- and neither do they.
Thank you Gentle Men. I see a bit of myself in each of you and I mean my best parts or more precisely what I'd like to be.
I love these men, they do speak with great intelligence, but to me they still speak with enough emotion to make it easy to understand and they make sense even to one one without the intellectual knowledge!!💕💕
Excellent dialogue!
Fine intelligent black men
Wonderful and disarming
Really looking forward to watching this! I am confident that this will also cure me from this flu.
It gave me some relief from the Omicron. Lol
@@dawnkopel8797 I still have the flu. Let's give it a second try :)
What a find! Three of my favourite academics! Thanks TH-cam for recommending.
These two are so great.
excellent discussion.
Omg, I love this Eric guy.
When John says he just “wants to read about my dinosaurs 🦕 ”😍🤣
By far the most refreshing thing in this discussion is three nerds talking about intellectual problems that have NOTHING TO DO with politics, racial or otherwise. My motto is "great minds discuss ideas [logos and ethos]; average minds discuss events [especially politics]; little minds discuss people [i.e. personal gossip, pathos in the absence of the other two]." Long live ideas. I hope they can get back to them. (P.S. I love the academic advise to "fake it til you make it" --that's what I did--made my writing look like I was doing deconstruction when I wasn't).
Excellent conversation
Love you guys
Brilliant! Been listening to TGS for a while now. I’m never disappointed. Always learn something new, something profound, something that gives me hope. Oh, and something that makes me giggle.
Great conversation!
I enjoyed this discussion ,and let me be up front , I'm a 50 something white man ,I grew up in the inner city and consider some of my closest friends /Brothers are black /Hispanic/Biracial and have battelled with drugs until I found myself in Jail for a couple years. That's enough about me. I keep hearing both sides of the isle using this word "our people " ,I 'm not throwing stones !! but why can't we refer to each other as my fellow person and I keep listening to these conversation about change , So Let's move on and make the change and be our brothers keeper" PERIOD" we don't have time for the past ,because my ancestor were wrong to divide man and women / black and white /asian and indians WHATEVER we are in this thing called LIFE together. If we want a better future we need to work on ourselves and not others, Our differences are what make people interesting "and not DIFFERENT or wrong . I don't have to agree with you to extend my hand and say HELLO
Imagine the ARROGANCE it takes for you to disrespect the ideas of your father in law, when that father in law is Glenn Loury, arguably one of the most brilliant men modernity has ever seen. Mind blowing.
When you have been brainwashed or infected by the woke mind virus, you lose track of reality!! You think up is down, and down is up!! Even if God came down to hearth to show you the truth, you wouldn’t believe him……
It's hard to find an example of
a wiser person more dedicated to the vision of black American prosperity and well-being than Glenn Lourey. Fortunately, it's not entirely impossible, because Lourey platforms under-sung heroes who are changing peoples lives measurably for the good on his podcast. Agree or disagree with Lourey's ideas (I lean toward trusting his perception and prescriptions), you can't doubt this gentleman's motives or efforts.
Nice conversation!
Congrats John on "omg so many book tours"!! 😅
I love this I would love to hear the other side rebut, but they would probably just name call and ignore their viewpoints
He’s a good moderator.
It is a delight to finally see intellectual black men with commonsense.sick of listening to al sharton and his school of grifters
That’s exactly how lots of us, Russian people, who are against Putin and his war feel, being attacked by the Russian pro-Putin compatriots.
The problem of the forced «identity» so primitively understood, and its forced loyalty goes far beyond you, brave and honest guys being insulted for not complying in your thinking and acting to the Elect (loving and reading John’s books!).
It’s a very important issue of Morden tribalism and the remnants of totalitarianism some parts of human souls still so yarn for.
Thank you for your books, intelligence, honesty and bravery.❤
Eric Smith! I love your work.
Part of the moral stain of racism is that one big motivation for restricting gun ownership has always been racism.
The Dred Scott ruling that blacks are not people specifically said that this is because blacks must be kept from owning guns.
The Black Panthers, to this very day, openly carry (including "assault rifles"), at their protests, demonstrations, and when protecting polling places.
It took TH-cam five whole days to send this my way despite my watching everything John and Glenn have done either together, or separately...Im annoyed. But so pleased I am now able to see it.
On the while "pathos, ethos"etc, point. I firmly believe there is more genuniness and humanity and empathy coming from this side of the discussion versus the other. These people are performing an act. Granted, some have got very well practiced at it - they know how to manage cadence, leave pauses pregant for others to infer the meaning. But does not stop it from becoming a pantomime. A llvery profitable, in terms of real cash or social kudos, but a performance no less. Further it benefits *them*, and not anyone else. What Glenn and John do is not for cash (just look at the settings of the pocast, Johns or Glenns shirts etc), and neither is it for social brownie-points - we all know that they are hated by "the other side". The pathos is on one side of this for me, and the ethos and especially the logos.
As Glenn and John have said in the past about the Obamas, no one is more gifted at performing the narrative in public than them. When Michelle said she fears for her daughters' safety in America due to racism, that's when I realized it's more than smoke and mirrors, it's an elaborate production.
Glen and John don't know it a nation is. And since you were into all these fancy Greek words, look up the Greek word for nation. Ethnos.
Hey Erec, How in the hell can you see Loury as cold? What's so amazing about Loury is his intellectual rigor while at the same time he acknowledges his emotional reality, for example when his son-in-law calls him a sellout...now McWhorter, on the other hand, repeatedly denies that he feels "sad" or "angry"...the gentleman doth protest too much
Would love to hear more about glenn loury's son in law? That would be end of that relationship
13:12 WOW!!! Yes me too!!
You don't get to pick who your kids marry.
I love jazz ! There are great white musicians , there are great Black musicians , I am a 'white' and I've played clarinet , jazz clarinet all my adult life , I'm 77 and of course , love JAZZ ... Duke , the Count , Stan Getz , Hampton Hawes , thousands more ... Sonny Clark , so so many ... JAZZ IS NOT DEAD
Most people seem to want the same goal in tthat they want everyone to have sufficient opportunities and to flourish, they just disagree on how to get there.
Another banger
Word.
I personally wish I could get John mad and be responsible for another of his great books! 🤣
The personal attacks used against me have only made me stronger and more determined.
I wonder how Glenn measures the prestige of Harvard today and the Kennedy School today versus his previous nod that Harvard being higher rated than the Kennedy School in the 1980s.
In light of Professor McWhorter caution about seeking tenure before speaking freely, a correlation is thatsome of the people who appear to be "woke" are actually secret critics who are biding their time. I teach as an adjunct instructor retired from full time work. I don't rely on my faculty pay to live. So I express myself openly about my unorthodox views. I sense that some of the full time faculty are afraid of me taking over some of their courses. But the courses I do teach are not taught by anyone else in the university.
Glenn's pronouncement of our future is more real and prescient than we might want to admit. Where are the responsible academic and socially literate who will speak out against "bad ideas hurting people". Listening to these gentleman gives me a chance to breath and infuse some hope that "the mob" becomes diffused with the weight of good healthy discourse that enlightens and sheds light. As a white, retired educator of 36 years I get tired of always having to begin a discussion with the indictment of my race framing the answer. Some of that is always true and relevant but when it degrades into a defensive position under the pressure of numbers insisting you demure to a specific narrative, it is sad and disheartening. That is what I felt when Glenn was describing as being hurt. I hold to a quote from James Baldwin that as a history teacher I always tried to keep in my discourses with students I was lucky to have of many diverse racial and ethnic backgrounds. " In short, we, the black and the white, deeply need each other here if we are really to become a nation- if we are really, that is, to achieve our identity, our maturity, as men and women. To create one nation has proved to be a hideously difficult task; there is no need now to create two". Glenn is correct when he says the world is moving fast and there are those "who are not going to wait" Thank you gentlemen for yet another wonderful discussion.
Beautifully stated. I am sure that you were an excellent teacher.
The issue is that they didn’t break it into separate paragraphs.
Here's the thing about the section of the talk about comedy.
To me, those who object to a comic for saying something are objecting to the wrong person.
The comic's defense is "I wouldn't say it if it didn't get a laugh."
The objection, if there should be any, should be with the audience for laughing at what was said.
And maybe it should not be an objection. Maybe the would-be objector should take a step back and ask him or her self "What underlying truth has this joke revealed about that makes the people laugh?" Maybe the "teachable moment" (man, I hate that phrase) is for the would-be objector and not everyone else.
I was at a U of Michigan Commencement Ceremony in which Carole Simpson gave the address. Based on the content of her speech she portrayed herself as a terrible human being. On the other hand, like Hiter was, she is quite intelligent.
Pathos "defends", Logos, "explores". Ethos is the measured coherency of the two.
I didn’t know this, thank you!
Glenn , if I were you I would of been hurt if a relative in the audience said that to me , and that is for sure ...
It’s not “would of”, it’s “would’ve”.
8:21. It’s like being called a Nazi when you’re a Jew. Love your attitude- laugh at it!!!!!!!
The Buffalo shooting by a racist killing black people who were strangers to him, took place under a New York state law that made it virtually impossible for the ordinary people who were murdered to have carried a handgun for self defense. At the same time, the killer was not deterred by the illegality of carrying a gun because he was already not deterred by the laws prohibiting murder. The perversity of the New York law was that it assured people intent on murder that their victims will never shoot back. That law was proved to be totally ineffective to prevent mass murders. The US Supreme Court put it out of its misery when it killed the law for violating the basic right of Americans to carry firearms for self defense. The people of New York should be glad to be rid of such a stupid law that enabled mass murder with guns rather than deterring it. Compare the Buffalo event with the event in Indiana where a single armed shopper killed a murderer within a minute after he began his attack. If New York had allowed lawful concealed carry by law abiding citizens, the Buffalo attacker might have been killed earlier, saving the lives of a dozen Black people. But New York government does not trust ordinary Black citizens to defend themselves, even though the state has no ability to protect them against determined criminals.
46:56
Jazz began its slow death in 1967. It's now a dead language, mostly performed as an archaic "Folk Music"; killed partly by a pernicious orthodoxy regardless of Sudhalter's book, "Lost Chords". What happened to IAJE, my friend, check it out. I was there, as its life was drained out, and knew some of its killers, personally. James Brown, one of the Killers, changing the beat from 2/4, to 1/3. "Get On The Good Foot"
Check out the London scene - it's thriving. And look into Tomorrow's Warriors - not a 1-to-1 but maybe a interesting comp to IAJE.
What is IAJE? Sorry not familiar.
Died with Coltrane.
Thank you for identifying Richard Sudhalter's book, and the spelling of his name.
Ignorance is holding onto limited perspectives even when the facts contradict those views. In claiming blanket views, rather than experiencing individual perspectives and ideas keeps people from truly understanding. It's like looking at the forest and saying it's just trees. Meanwhile there are so many things going on that you simply cannot see from far away. You have to get into something from lots of perspectives to appreciate a view that differs from yours. Ignorance is the unwillingness to do that. It's like religion in that it requires belief rather than engagement.
18:00 You'll get to 200 real soon at that rate, Erec!
I'm gay and have been a "gay UT" since I was a teenager in the 1980s, a label given to me by members of my gay youth group when I said I'd like to see gay marriage legalized one day. It was 1988. I took from that a need for minorities to rebel against mainstream society even when that society has gay youth groups in 1988. I imagined where that would lead, and despite the darkness I foresaw it was nothing like what's happened to Democrats. Ironically, I've believed for years that the real UTs were the minorities who follow eurocentric white ideology like Marxism, the platform for the Black Panthers by the way. And the big question is, especially for Black Americans, what are minorities supposed to do if success and contentment inside the US iscregarded as a sellout? Are we on a forever treadmill of discontent, misery in mink, suffering in a hot tub? What's left otherwise other than the ghetto where at least you don't "sellout"?
The word "gay" is an ideology. It is a revolutionary assault on civilization. Marxism is a Jewish ideology.
Since this was a discussion on race; I really hope that there were many blacks in the audience. Also, John McWhorter is not a conservative and has never voted for a Republican. This makes me hopeful that American liberals are not all crazy leftists.
Please fix the spelling of Erec's name.
55:36
The left is the clever path; the right, the sincere. The left manipulates others, using any device necessary, for the sake of self-service, nevermind the outer appearance of compassion etc.; the right sees all things as being worthy of love, deserving of freedom, all being created the same; service to others.
A study of the Kabbalah would prove fruitful in understanding the foundation of such matters.
While I agree with victimization being a setback in the black community, I also recognize that many black intellectuals feel the need to validate themselves through the ideals, acceptance and adoration of white people.
I think that accusation is thrown around so lightly nowadays. It makes that stupid definition of "what is considered white" (being on time, thinking logically, etc.) seem as if it's actually accurate. Blackness isn't ghetto, overly emotional, unintelligent, etc. We have got to stop both defining ourselves (and allowing others to) as these things. We can be whoever we want to be ... that is true freedom.
Glenn if my son in law said that I would be very sad ... SELLOUT WOW , give me a break !
I think John McWhorter is too nice about this.. but who am I to say how he should respond. I respect his position and enjoy the conversation from these guys. I think people who don't want to respect alternative viewpoints from the likes of the panel above, feel threatened that there are some people who don't buy what they are selling (bought into). As a white person, I think white people sometimes feel like they have to align with some kind of left-leaning Black thought, because the ad-hominem attacks coming at them from the anti-racist left are pretty mean. Essentially, you are some form of a racist or white-supremacist thinking-person, unless you agree and act on what I'm saying. The message from progressive race activists is basically that you are a dog-shit racist white person, and anything related to "whiteness" is a pejorative, and that you as a white person in the modern world should be made to feel guilty for the sins of America's past. It's mean, but I'm not surprised white people so easily fall for it. It's empowering to feel like you can tell this to people's faces and get away with it. As soon as another Black person (especially someone prominent) doesn't agree with that message, it questions your standing as a white person, which also means your community and personal beliefs. Easier to throw ad-hominem attacks at someone like these guys, than actually think for yourself and be open-minded. I can't believe some people would throw insults like they do at the panelists here because they are not of the same thought.. unbelievable.
Am I the only one bothered by the way the "moderator" keeps trying, overtly, to interject himself to answer each question?
When he said "be three black men", I thought he had enough sense that it was a fun joke, or momentary interlude.
But after they answer each question, he then takes up some time to answer it himself.
Which might be tolerable, if he was really adding anything.
But his input is only diluting the overall quality a bit.
I might watch him a bit if he had his own show, but he's not on part with those two.
😎
Glenn totally captured it. The Chinese are not going to wait.
So, while we discuss what pronouns to use and try to convince people that today's racism is no better than it was in the 1950s, the Chinese are producing scientist and engineers.
That's racist
@@NoLefTurnUnStoned. Or is it rape? It's always one or the other.
@@timothydoyle6859
It's racist rape!
Sorry I was just trolling - don't know what came over me.
I'll find something better to do.
@@NoLefTurnUnStoned. Racist rape. I like that!
McWhorter has pretended not to be what he is so long it probably doesn't hurt
Understanding the other side in a political or racial debate also must include our biological makeup. Liberals generally have a larger anterior cingulate gyrus, which encourages new ideas and experiences, while conservatives generally have a larger right amygdala, which drives fight/flight reactions, leading to superior stability in jobs and marriage, as well as other positive traits.
One is not better than the other, since each manifests a different list of superior behavioral traits.
What is important is that we take biology into account when debating our opposition. They are likely better in different ways and therefore deserve to be listened to and understood when debating them.
This video claims a ~70% accuracy rate in guessing a Liberal versus a Conservative from JUST a brain MRI:
th-cam.com/video/kI-un8rHP14/w-d-xo.html
John McWorther is 56 ? He looks 40 🥸