WATCH MORE: The Toxic Male may be here to stay, but the "Good Ol' Days" are supposedly a thing of the past. So why do we romanticize them onscreen and in real life? Here's our Take on who's defining the "Good Ol' Days" and why they weren't so good for everyone: th-cam.com/video/JplHO4Fk1MY/w-d-xo.html
Bad boys all way rain supreme. And it's rooted in our biology. The most dangerous and aggressive males are leader across the animal Kingdom and we aren't the exception. These toxic males are more likely to dominate in many situation. However in our modern era feminine trait like emotional intelligence and stocism are what more benefituals.
This entire video is Hollywood bs. At the EOD, 'toxic masculinity' is essentially- emotional strength wanting to excel and win against your competition disagreeableness( being able to think and act for yourself) Essentially the same things that helped humanity progress from being monkeys in the dirt to putting us on the moon. When pushed to extremes or when radical feminists do the marketing, these same qualities become- "unable to show vulnerability because he's afraid" "workaholic/money-obsessed" "asshole" It's all marketing bs. And what does Brad Pitt wearing a skirt jhave to do with anything? Who cares if he wears a skirt. He is strong, good looking, talented, multimillionaire. He's attractive despite wearing the skirt not because of it. Good luck trying to be attractive to women while you're fat, poor, untalented,ugly AND wearing a skirt. And about the strong, gay dude in Last of Us. The man who cries and shows his feelings. Sure, men should be allowed to show their feelings. But try to find me a man who's considered valuable if he cries at the first sign of trouble. There is a strong way to show your feelings, you can't just go around willy-nilly crying at shit. Especially, when you're leading a group of people-cuz who the fuck wants a crybaby for a leader? There's a reason women react positively to these toxic male bad boys. And it's not to do with "conditioning". It's to do with 100,000 years of biology where women were attracted to strong men who could keep their children safe. And women can finger wag and say they wished men were 'nicer' or whatever but at the end of day these same women will be choosing these strong men as mates.
Good luck trying to condition people out of their biology. In the meantime, men watching this, please don't get confused. Reject modernity, embrace masculinity.
The only way to survive this is to become the animals we were meant to be. Humanity is a lie. A lie to suppress us, to prevent us from being what we truly evolved to be. You thought you were a god. You though you could control the animal inside of us but all you really did was turn that animal in to the beast I have become. I no longer feel love. I only feel anger and hunger. And as I look into the eyes of my prey all I can see is the beast that you have unleashed.
There's a difference between "Toxic" and a man who is literally a pending criminal that will or already has a record of domestic abuse, hate crimes, sexual harassment/assault, and should not be allowed a 20 mile radius of any highschool. Don't play it down, we were passionate to snuff it out for a reason
I'm so glad they made that exact point in the video. The way they illustrate the issue at large and how guys turn to people like tate is anything but downplaying. honestly eye opening
The issue is tv and movies don’t know whether they want to idolize or mock the toxic male trope. Cam’s character in White lotus is often sexualized yet mocked. The polarizing discourse on TikTok isn’t helping either. Sometimes being neutral doesn’t help
It’s honestly so painful, jarring and gross as a SA survivor to see how society loves, lust after and is curious to know grapists stories and is quick to empathize, infantilize and glorify…
Hey The Take, I feel the need to also point out that social media and algorithms therein have been a huge contributor to this phenomenon. Crazy wild misogyny is always going to get more clicks than healthy masculinity. Even if boys and men are looking for healthy models, our current communication channels make it very hard to do so in the never ending war for just 30 seconds of their attention.
This is incorrect though the algorithm only feeds you back what retains peoples interest. These guy's get popular not because the algorithms boost them artificially. But instead the algorithm boosts them because they are popular. If you click on cat videos the whole day the algorithm will feed you cat videos the whole day.
Bro, don't blame the algorithms. The algorithm doesn't make lefties group up and bully someone who TANGENTIALLY reminds them of a misogynyst or a transphobe or a homophobe for a straight hour. . . . .
@@bigpapichampagne745 It's been well documented how tribalism and conspiracy theories can grow more popular due to the way social media feeds boost provocative information. This isn't only individual choice, its the systems of communication people work in.
I love your profile picture. And you are correct, outrage is more profitable than mild and rational thinking. More outrage means more comments, more views, more discussion. People don't realice how much they feed the monster trying to antagonize it.
@@bigpapichampagne745 But if there’s a related video that’s more provocative…like ‘cats are being abused! 10 of the worst offenders!’…then if it draws more clicks, TH-cam will feed you that.
Not long ago you posted a video about how the word "toxic" has been trivialized. I think that taking a man who is not capable of regulating their emotions and putting him in the same category as literally sexual predators is a very dangerous thing.
@@pflynn623 it's immature, not toxic. Most things categorized as "toxic masculinity" are just things people under 25 do because everyone is an immature weenie at that age.
i dont think that toxic males are those who cant regulate their emotions. we dont shit on males who are sad, angry, overwhelmed or depressed. toxic males are those who peddle the hate of supremacy. i would also call a woman who mocks a man's emotions toxic. that doesnt mean i would compare her to an abuser or child molester.
The two are not exclusive nor are they the same. There is lots of overlap. A man who is not capable of regulating their emotions could very well become a sexual predator.
I will say that there's a toxicity to someone acting like he's an ally when all he wants is to be a rescuer - that "pretty wounded birds" line made my hackles rise.
[spoilers] .... ... ... We all expected Albie to play the "nice guy" trope that turns out to be a toxic male, but turns out he really is just a nice guy, a little too idealistic, hypocritical, and with rich privelage to top it off. For $50,000 he could rescue a prostitute. Is that toxic masculinity? I don't think so. There's nothing wrong with wanting to rescue someone you think is in real danger. He admits to his father that it could be a scam, but that it doesn't matter because they're so rich that the money means nothing to them, but could mean the world to her. He considered it Karmic Justice for his father cheating on his wife. Also turns out, he already spoke to his mom prior to making this deal with his father, so he wasn't even selling out his mom. Again, Mike White subverting the audiences expectations like a genius.
Yup! He was eager to play the savior role to Lucia, never mind that he would’ve been a position of control over he had she not played him. It’s a different form of domination but playing the savior is a form of superiority complex
It's called the sneaky fucker phenomenon. In the animal kingdom some males can inhibit their masculine traits to get close to the female without her noticing or the dominant male, then force sex on females in the right moment.
how is wearing a skirt or a dress going to help with “toxic masculinity”? pretty sure marilyn manson has wore them for years, and still is considered “toxic”
He's considered toxic because of all the claims of sexual assault, not for wearing a skirt. He's hardly the only cis man who's been making that fashion choice in the last few decades, in fact I wouldn't have even thought of him initially if asked to make a list.
@@thegirlabides6851 the point is that wearing a skirt or dress alone shouldn’t be held up as not being toxic. They brought up Brad Pitt in that section and he was literally accused of drunkenly attacking his family on a private plane last October.
Exacty. This entire video is posturing. Fact is at the EOD, 'toxic masculinity' is essentially- emotional strength wanting to excel and win in their fields disagreeableness(essentially being able to think and act for yourself) When pushed to extremes or when radical feminists do marketing, these same qualities become- "unable to show vulnerabity because he's afraid" "workaholic/money obsessed" "asshole" It's all marketing bs. There's a reason women react positively to these toxic male bad boys. And it's not to do with "conditioning". It's do with 100,000 years of biology. Good luck trying to condition people out of their biology.
Your life maybe but I don’t have the privilege of being better off not knowing these types of dudes exist and neither do all their victims…to some people he and his follower may have just been annoying but to other people it’s scary, it’s traumatizing, night terrors, flashbacks, panic attacks that will haunt them for the rest of their life…and he is one of many and it’s important we know these MEN (again MANY) exist.
Portraying toxic characters like Nate Jacob’s and Daemon does not equal Endorsement. It’s called writing you have to explore all aspects of humanity including toxicity.
@@toshcameron366 Unfortunately, there will always be some people who have no sense of analysis and just think that showing *anything* that’s hard to digest = glorifying.
I think they're referring to the fact that the framing of some of these characters seems weird. Like casting super hot guys and saying textually that they're wrong but showing them with their shirts off in pretty lights and stuff. Like the framing contradicts the text.
I thought the Jack Pearson character in This Is Us was kind of a model for modern masculinity. I felt encouraged hearing that a lot of men watched the show and looked to Jack as an example of how to be a better husband and father.
I think that's nice, but it's also a bit problematic in this video that they mention positive masculinity and then show only two gay characters. It gives the impression that male heterosexuality itself is viewed as toxic. That will just drive more men into the arms of toxic influencers. We need positive gay role models in the media, but we also need positive hetero role models.
“Anything Chris Evans does” like making a website that tried to both sides women’s rights, racial issues, & trans rights? He’s hot. We get it. But a man looking cute with puppies ain’t deconstructing anything. Also Brad Pitt skirt… like the man worked with Weinstein despite knowing he tried to assault Angelina. That guy is hardly good.
@@talkingtochapri exactly! Like speaking as a queer dude, a straight white celebrity wearing a skirt isn’t doing anything to help the cause. Actual queer ppl been transgressive like that for over a century. If Pitt really wanted to help, he would’ve helped support his wife & other woman Weinstein victimized.
He also helped Gwyneth paltrow from such men. Einstein had s big empire wirh hsi hands in almost eveything. Everyone has worked with him in some capacity. I dont like Brad but let's not start hating people for wrong reasons. He is shitty enough for cheating on his wife and then some.
I think a huge part of women being attracted to toxic men in media is the safety of the fictional. IRL Joe from You would be terrifying, but trough the show one can get excited about the potential danger without having to worry about their safety. I don't think that every Woman that likes a toxic fictional Character forgets about his awfulness just because he's good looking, but rather, that this can be a safe exploration of feelings not often talked about. A subset of these women might even want to explore those further in safe settings like bdsm scenes, but even then they still have the ability to stop if anything happens they don't like.
So basically its porn. Its a safe fantasy you experience from a far and if you're not careful your expectations of it leak into real life and how you view real relationships
IRL many women (especially young ones) fall for the same type of guy. It also has to do with the self confidence and drive that these types of men have.
Didn't a lot of people show up at the real-life Ted Bundy's trial though? I suppose he was incarcerated, but still -- he did tend to break out. Honestly, I think a lot of this is that BOTH sexes are not yet wired/evolved to ideally live in today's urban society. A majority of men have a need to protect when there is no need to protect (when there is you generally call the cops -- marginalized neighborhoods notwithstanding, of course), while a majority of women have a need to feel protected when there is less of a need to be protected than at any point in human civilization. So when there is nothing to protect/be protected from, what do men and women do? CREATE OR REWARD THE CREATION OF PROBLEMS so they can find the opportunities to let the roles play out.
Funnily enough this is what the Red Pill talks about. How women like bad boys and how the 30% get all the women. Because women like the same type of ideal man
Really wish they mentioned Prince Zuko as a prime example of how mentorship from a positive male role model can really a difference in the growth and development of young men. On the other hand, I always have to remind my friends that Don Draper, Walter White and Thomas Shelby are NOT aspirational figures, they’re cautionary tales. Be more like Iroh :) Would love to see more video essays on this topic that aren’t from brofluencers!
Characters like Walter White, Thomas Shelby, Rick Sanchez and such are not to be idolized, even the characters say so themselves. The writers intend them to be not idolized. However the actors playing them do have a certain charm and gravitas that attracts the audience. These incredibly talented actors are often overlooked for their characters.
Masculinity is not in crisis, patriarchy is. Also, media has warped the term toxic masculinity. It was originally about how hegemonic (*traditional or dominant) masculinity has been toxic or damaging to MEN, as in masculine expectations of being violent, hypersexual, risk-taking, etc, harms men. It's frustrating that the term and concept has been diluted and that you all imply it is somehow gender essentialist or posits that this is how men "naturally" behave. The concept argues the exact opposite. Its about how men are trained and socialized to behave with one another, women, and other genders. Our society has to start defining what masculinity is and what it means outside of patriarchy and dominance.
This channel is part of the problem. Boys and young men are screaming out help, and women are saying there isn't a problem. They are doing the same thing men did in the past, but they are supposed to be better
@@Chris-rg6nm women aren't saying there isn't a problem. We're saying it is your problem and you need to be called out and do the work to get it fixed.
In my opinion, insisting that male celebrities who wear women's clothing should be looked up to as the standard of masculinity, is part of the reason that "brofluencers" are so popular.
Sounds to me like the problem is assuming that Brad Pitt wearing women's clothing one day of his life is an attempt to replace the standard of masculinity, rather than an attempt to expand it to be more inclusive to people who are marginilized. I don't expect "broinfluencer" followers to have that much going on upstairs, considering how lucrative the supplement scam is.
What does clothing have to do with being self imporving & valuable to look up to? Would a man wearing a suit be better even if he's full of bull? It's shallow & shows how restrictive we see "good" men or men in general.
Yeah but if you look in real life...marriage rates are down, birth rates are down, and the number of women living alone, unmarried and childfree are rising. Women are rejecting these men as partners and most of these men are bitter because of it.
Bly Manor did a great take on the Toxic Guy and funny enough he wasn't seen as being a good guy. I think the audience tends to have an idea of "I can fix him" or he'd "love me over everyone else" mentality when watching shows but "The Haunting of Bly Manor" showed the manipulative man and when the same behavior was put into the little boy it was seen as creepy and that was eye opening.
Honestly they made him creepy at first but then he turned out to be more sympathetic. No complaints though, I like more complex characters. But I didn’t feel that their primary goal was to show a cautionary tale.
@@rasina1296 Peter - the love interest of Miss Jessel. When he used Miles (the little kid) it was super creepy. I like that the show kind of had a thing with putting the “good”/loving people in their favorite memories when they died but the bad/angry/hate-filled people in their worst or most painful memories. It was so creative.
I love the example of Bill from TLOU - especially because in the show, he's the provider for himself and Frank usually, but he also lets himself be wooed and taken care of, even if it's just a matter of enjoying fresh strawberries not only because they taste good but because Frank got him the seeds.
I think the idea that there has to be a set roles of provider\breadwinner is reductive and I’ve found that it’s often women that reinforce this role. They want a guy with a certain salary and body type (which I thought we as progressives where trying to make more realistic and accepting) all which play into these toxic tropes. Some guys feel the need to be toxic just to get women’s attention. A weird damned if you do and damned if you don’t where everyone loses.
@@gabrielidusogie9189 so basically your point is that men need to be toxic because women don't give certain men attention? i'm sorry but if a man feels the "need to be toxic" perhaps he should look inward on himself...
@@chaaaargh not toxic but feel the need to look up to certain toxic people. I’m not speaking for myself but from what I’ve observed. And you’re right, men should should inward but what’s happening outward could use some extra pairs of eyes as well.
One of the things, I find most disturbing currently, are more and more female influencers or TH-camrs who lash out against the slightest hints of feminism, or take protective attitudes towards males, who are accused of behaving in toxic or even abusive manners.
There are many waves of feminism, some of them are really toxic and have a hate men mentality. I'm a Christian myself and I'm very critical of some of what the Church and our members do. Just because you are a female doesn't mean you can't criticize or scrutinize feminism. You should be critical of everything.
To be Frank being an asshole is always going to be thing. No amount of hashtags and college psychology papers is going to get rid of that. The best thing to do is to show consequences for that behavior and healthy alternatives.
I was talking to a coworker the other day and we were talking about how comfortable we are being assholes as we get older. I used the example of being in the gym and someone trying to have a conversation with me where before I'd be polite and kind of passive and hint that I need to workout and now I'm like "listen dude, I'm not here to chit chat or have girl talk, I'm here to workout so leave me alone".
People always have to fight for their rights on every level, after all it's human nature to be opportunistic and selfish, cruel even.. Some more some less. We need to take responsibility for us and our safety and take action. Always.
I remember reading somewhere that progress is often met with an increase in more regressive beliefs because disturbing their grasp of power makes them insecure & they desperately try to reassert it through anger & fear. So I just tell myself that if there is all this backlash, then women must be doing something right. It also helps me sleep at night knowing that I get to see strong female & nonbinary unity through my lifetime and won’t go out believing that there will never be a place for me in this world like the other women in my family did. We have a tool that other feminist movements have never had in the past: widespread unity across the globe. There is strength in numbers & we have never dissected patriarchy like we are doing rn. It is depressing af and not good enough but it brings me an ounce of peace knowing that I’ll get to experience more support for speaking out against sexism than any of our ancestors ever did, even if we are still met with the same amount of backlash from men
The first part you said is correct. I am a black woman and I think of how in Martin Luther Kings lifetime, he was disliked by most Americans. Now, look at things. He's considered a hero and his impact has improved the condition of our people in many ways. Sure we still face a lot of issues, but we've come a long way. Similarly, these regressive beliefs are being held on to by a loud group of people precisely because they are dying off.
I think an extension of this issue of how Toxic Masculinity isn't really going anywhere is the constant shootings that have been happening. I know some of the are because of white supremacy and racism but a lot have been committed by disillusioned, troubled men who want everyone to feel just as hurt as they feel. The lack of access to personal connections within the community and lack of access to mental health professionals. I also have struggled myself with mental issues and lacking proper, healthy coping skills. I sometimes have decided it's best to just stay isolated and away from others because I have felt overwhelmed. Not knowing how to manage.
Thank you for sharing this real perspective! From what I've read up on for how men struggle today, you've hit the nail on the head. The promise of if you just adhere to the masculine ideal, everything will work out in your favor is just not true for most men and its super disappointing. Whether its struggling to get a good job, have fun sex, or have fulfilling connections with others, lots of what men are taught to be doesn't create those opportunities. What i'll say is that men are deserving of love and support from their communities. My two cents would be to encourage you to 1) let the people in your life know you appreciate them and how they help you grow as a person. 2) learn what kind of pleasure would be satisfying for you and take pride in knowing that s*x can be more than power and control. 3) Try seeing how other's accomplishments will help you and your community too, rather than seeing everything as a competition to be won or lost. Life can be really hard and painful but removing your idea of yourself from hierarchical thinking can really make a difference.
I have also, in my mind, linked the problematic toxic men to mass shootings. They seem to be getting worse and at the same time of hearing about all these shootings, the growing number of incels and alphas seems to be present too.
The constraints of gender roles and capitalism really harm everyone, including men. They are taught to be strong and “manly” but women are looking for sensitive, emotionally available guys. They’re losing their purpose in society, where working hard and doing well doesn’t mean you get a partner or happy life. We’re all lost, but men are having a harder time dealing with it because seeking help make them feel weak, a big no-no. We need to change the way we think about these issues all together.
We should really quit it with those stories in which guys like this especially if they have anger issues and are prone to bullying others are paired up with the most sweetest gentlest innocent girl possible who's put in a position to fix him because only she seems to see the good in him. Just this overall tope has to die.
Loney boy wants a girlfriend. Lonely boy tries being "nice". Lonely boy is rejected. Lonely boy sees Toxic Male. Toxic Male is crushing it. Lonely boy becomes a Toxic Male as well. That's the pattern. So I think it's mostly a problem of kids lacking positive male role models they can look up to instead.
To add to this. Lonely boy sees media where lonely Nice Boy/Nice Guy gets gets girl or girl gets shows interest in him for...reasons(it's wish-fulfilment). Lonely boy gets inspired and acts nice expecting reward missing the point that fictional nice guys are nice as a matter of course and not because of expectations of reward. This leads to growth in bitterness and nihilism thinking that being nice is fake BS acts put on by people as well as toxic views of male displays of softness, compassion, and emotional openess.
I don't like how you used Brad Pitt in this video as an example of some new, better form of masculinity. His whole wearing-women's-clothing thing is a PR move meant to get people talking about his "fashion style" instead of his alleged abuse of Angelina Jolie and their children.
Plus, the only reason why he can get away with wearing a skirt is because he's famous and attractive. If a guy who isn't famous and attractive decides to wear a skirt, people would judge and bash him for it.
He’s so cringe. So much about publicity and crafting his image as a likable edgy guy. His and Angelina adopting kids from Asia and Africa is part of an egotistical white savior vision of themselves 🙄
You can't erase someone from society when he still holds sway in your own heart. "And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed." Khalil Gibran
There’s a fine line between men having self esteem and standing up for their ideals and being a jerk. I might be a girl, but thanks for being surrounded by male figures that were raised with values, I believe that indeed, a man can be manly without being a jerk or a bigot.
99% of behavior people blame on "toxic masculinity" is actually caused by women reacting badly to men not staying within the parameters of stereotypical male stoicism. A man is "open" with his feelings with his GF, then she gets the "ick" and is less attracted to him, or accuses him of "male fragility," or whatever. Then he learns not to be so open. Some feminists will admit that happens, but they invariably argue that it's "patriarchy" magically forcing women to react that way. This is of course completely unquantifiable and unprovable. Men just need to be the source of blame one way or another, or the ideology falls apart.
Hard agree on some parts because I made the connection myself after my own experiences that as much as some women may want you to open up, the moment you do that later on, the few time you do open up, they will then call you toxic, or centering, or fragile to your face, and it’s funny enough feminist that do this, where they preach for men to open up more if your a male, but once you do, they will call you fragile and either blame you or the patriarchy (men) for your problems but mainly blame you, and will usually blame you for your problems or experiences because you are a male.
I love baddies, both men and women on the screen - they are often written better and are therefore more interesting. However, I'm yet to be drawn to one of these creatures in real life , because I hope I'm grown up enough to know the difference.
It's honestly because the "real life" ones are so often just insecure pretenders. Confidence doesn't boast. So all these self-proclaimed "badasses" are just so annoying.
As a feminist who wants to get rid of toxicity, Im not sure if I agree with some of the points this video made. And no frigging way that Tate's criminal behavior is normalized to start with, most men I've met, even the toxic macho ones that care too much about what other men think of them, all generally agree that Tate went too friggin' far. It's not men that looked up to Tate, it was young impressionable boys who were looking for a role model in all the wrong places. In fact if you looked at the stats for Tate's videos, you notice that most viewers are 13-15 year olds. Don't mistake that as normalization of Tate's predatory behavior. Instead, see it as Tate trying to groom young boys into being predators like himself. And the troubling thing is, all of us created this problem by constantly sending out negative messages that imply that men are monsters who can't change even if they're trying to. "All white men are automatically racist", and everything else along that vein. in modern cartoons and everything else we don't even try to show examples of positive masculinity so that there are positive role models for those boys anymore. Instead, men and boys are always stupid and need to be saved by girls all the time. I know we're making up for older cartoons that were sexist, and that we definitely need more girl power cartoons... but it feels like we went all the way to the other extreme end, where instead of helpless idiotic damsels it's now helpless idiotic dudes. Sexism against boys and men doesn't do anything to actually help us solve sexism against women and girls. all it does is push men and boys away, and drives the more impressionable ones into the arms of charismatic predators like Tate, who tries to groom them into his way of thinking.
Couldn’t have said it better. I’m trying to become a writer to call Out the rise of toxic masculinity. I truly think as a feminist men and women need to build each other up and not tear each other down.
In all fairness Alby was also toxic. He was an insecure nice guy who extorted his toxic dad, and sold out his loving mother all to buy himself an exotic $50000 girlfriend…and he still considered himself “the good guy”
STRAIGHT UP FACTS I mean there’s also Shane from Season one who’s also a toxic man who is in fact an entitled man baby from a Rich family who’s too focused on winning the Battle with its season Resident Manager Armond over the rights on getting the right room whom he made it clear he’d booked it while ignoring his newlywed wife’s feelings The hard working and Grounded middle class Rachel
Alibe actually was NOT toxic. It's easy to assume he's the "nice guy" trope when we're first introduced to him. So when he decides to use $50,000 to rescue a prostitute from her pimp, we all thought this confirms our bias that he's a toxic guy. But, Is that toxic? I don't think so. There's nothing wrong with wanting to rescue someone you think is in real danger. He admits to his father that it could be a scam, but that it doesn't matter because they're so rich that the money means nothing to them, but could mean the world to her. He considered it Karmic Justice for his father cheating on his wife. He was willing to let someone keep $50,000 for scamming him, and not even file a police report. If this is toxic masculinity, then please send it my way. Also, turns out, he already spoke to his mom before making this deal with his father, so he wasn't even selling out his mom. Mike White was subverting the audiences expectations again. Albie talked to his mom, probably because he was willing to help out his father after warming up to him over the course of their vacation. Relationships are complex. We also don't know what exactly what he told his mother. Albie's flaw is every man's flaw, his achilles cock. He thinks he's better than his father and grandfather because he learned about toxic masculinity, but he still glances at hot girls, just like them, and he still tries to buy off girls, just like them. Though, he's different, in that he really is trying to do the right thing for women. He at the very least attempts to understand the issues that women face. Even if at the core of it, his cock is what's driving these decisions, because perhaps there's no escape from that biological desire. He's much more complex and not as bad as some people make him out to be.
I can't help but feel like you kind of missed the mark with this one. I know this is a channel dedicated to pop culture, but there are so many larger social and economic factors contributing to this. Men today do not feel insecure because they hadn't seen Brad Pitt wear a skirt. It has a lot to do with the rise in social isolation, which disproportionally affects men. There was that recent Pew study that showed a record number of men under 30 (more than half) were not romantically or sexually involved with anyone and had not been for more than a year. Most importantly, 15% said they had 0 friends. None at all! We live in a world that has completely torn down the old expectations of how men should act, but the ever-changing cultural landscape makes the new expectation feel like a moving target. Combine this with the pandemic that has pushed more of our interactions online, and you have more men than ever who feel confused, isolated, and most of all hopeless. Then these guys come along. And they do what shysters have always done to vulnerable people. They exploit them for their town gain under the guise of helping them. They act like they have it all figured out and make this big confusing world seem so utterly simple. It's a tactic that's been used by despots and cult leader for millennia. And frankly, it's no surprise these types of guys are so popular right now given the position that many young men (rightly or wrongly) feel they are in right now. So the real question then becomes not why are these toxic men so popular but rather why so many men feel they're the only ones who have the answers. Or put another way, why do so many men feel directionless and why are there so few alternatives for finding that direction? The sad truth is that until more men find a better space to grow in and explore, they'll continue to gravitate to these hyper-masculine caricatures who at the very least pretend to understand what they're feeling.
I agree. Today men think that providing for a family means primarily being a financial wage slave. In reality fathers are needed in the home to model for their sons what it means to be responsible adults.
Defining appropriate masculinity is confining and counter-productive. Sure ... some behaviors (misogyny, violence, excessive anger) are inherently toxic, but "defining" how anyone should express their feelings becomes problematic and men rightfully rebel from these one-size-fit-all archetypes that stifle our uniqueness as individuals.
Violence, mental health issues, and weaponized incompetence are not uniqueness. Just like with literally everything else in society, there needs to be standards for acceptable and unacceptable behavior for every community. Unacceptable behavior is not men's uniqueness and it's harmful to men to imply it is. Telling each other what you need to look like, how you need to dress, etc. is definitely stifling however. If you can get your "man card" taken for wearing a skirt, then you're perpetuating the idea that masculinity is conditional. That you are not born a man, you have to kill parts of yourself to become one and to "maintain" masculinity. Those things seem designed to create a culture of peer-policing which is unhealthy af. You then can't feel safe with each other. Standards for behavior and gender policing are markedly different. The need for the word toxic masculinity needs to exist SO that masculinity itself isn't what's labelled as toxic. That makes it clear you can absolutely be a healthy masculine person.
Everyone went crazy during the pandemic. How else can people go from "stay in, you're killing grandma!" To "we need to march because racism is the real disease" in like 12 hours? People lost their minds
@@fate8007 Not inside the house. There are several studies about work outside and how women also take the load of the house and emotional chores (and some men tasks, like being their agendas and secretaries)
No they don’t. In the US it’s both partners work but it’s still on the woman to take care of the home and children. Women don’t want to be overworked and men can’t afford to provide so women are just deciding to be single and not have children.
You think Ned opening up the Try Guys to litigation and them following up by removing him from the company and then from future releases because his transgressions literally go against everything that would be 'on brand' for the Try Guys was an overcorrection? I keep wondering why I watch The Take because you always managed to step too far and get too petty in your analysis, which then hurts the message. The Take, even if it's minor - you're still part of the problem.
The Take used to be really on point when it came to not crossing the line. But lately, that has not been the case. I wonder if they've lost some of their better writers?
They even showed the joker as like "this is toxic masculinity" where in the movie, I thought, they made it clear he was severely mentally ill and needed help.
@@shitty80smovielover the minute they started putting out shorter videos more frequently (which started a few months ago I believe), the writing and writing quality has felt immediately and significantly different.
Masculinity isn’t inherently toxic, and I think that feeding young boys and men that rhetoric is incredibly harmful in their psychological development as human beings and productive members of society. We should encourage and demonstrate to them a strong moral compass and to treat people w/ kindness, fairness, and respect/dignity. More importantly: Stop using celebrities, entertainers, TV, and movies as a framework for what good and bad masculinity is and isn't. I get that that's the point of this channel, but, the aformentioned are works of fiction conjured up by screenplay writers and not entirely founded in what’s real.
The video never says masculinity is inherently toxic. Being toxic through the power of being a man is what toxic masculinity is. The only way to let boys grow up into good, kind and strong people is to critique real and fictional bad examples. Also wtf do you want them to analyze then? It’s a media analysis channel, and also Media INFLUENCES reality. They also do use statistics literally halfway through the video they cite a study)
@@Aaron-kj8dv it is true for women. if a woman says she does not know of any toxic woman who is a misandrist, then she is lying. they are way less common than raging misogynists, but they do exist. and why would she lie about it? to excuse it, and maybe even to excuse herself.
@@fate8007 if there are toxic men, then there is toxic masculinity. those are not men who happen to be toxic, those are men who behave in a toxic way due to their beliefe in male supremacy.
I think this is an issue also in other visual medium, like Anime/Manga. Characters like Sasuke in Naruto have large followings even though they have a lot toxic traits, and yes, while that is supposed to be something they overcome. It is never something that is criticize or address in the actual anime by the other characters.
There's so many issues with the animanga community and various shows that your post is only scratching the tip of the iceberg. Even characters that are unmistakably badass in regular masculine ways(Guts, Kenshiro, Jonathan Joestar, Sugimoto, Tanjiro, Luffy, etc.) get reduced to just those traits. The fact that many are kind and compassionate as well as openly showing of various softer emotions(laughter, crying due to grief or sadness, and general emotional vulnerability) gets barely acknowledged if at all. This also ties into the idea that a "real man" can't be or isn't supposed to be soft or emotional or can't be.
@@laylamorrison9596 It's fine to discuss topics of sex and sexuality and some cases of ecchi are okay...but most aren't and it veers into some gross creepy shit. Even ignoring that, it veers into a lot of expectations that aren't how relationships work.
I feel like you can make a whole essay on what Tommy Shelby from Peaky Blinders has headlined this imparticular. This movement has basically made him the mascot.
And nobody talks about this. People seriously try to emulate that character who is very clearly self destructive and who hates himself because he’s played by cillian Murphy and he wears nice suits and gets cool background music accompanying him.
@@fate8007 No argument there. The problem, in my opinion, is the character is not understood as he is intended to be. The writers do not intend, at least I interpret it so, for him to be emulated. He’s supposed to be tragic, a man who cannot find peace and love and happiness, because of what a life of fighting has done to him. This character has been taken and made a symbol of toxic masculinity, of making the woman who left you play for it by becoming successful and soulless. It’s sad that the point, I think, has been entirely missed.
@@ajustice I got my dad into Peaky Blinders and I kinda regret it because he is very guilty of this and very unaware of it. I do think that the framing is meant to be murky on purpose, a mask of sorts, but it’s unfortunate most viewers take it as text without understanding the subtext.
I actually don’t know if I agree with the take. It’s easier to write a man in as a character who is just evil and toxic on his own accord and use the umbrella term “toxic male“. A villain drives conflict in a story. That’s how it’s always been. But most of the characters listed in these examples are not toxic to strictly feminine achievement. They just seem to be evil written characters who just happen to have a penis. Nuanced, then how this is being framed in that we’ve always had a thing for evil characters were they the men women are everything in between, and just to label “toxic male” on a male character just because it fits the narrative of what this piece is trying to do I think it’s quite disingenuous.
Women complain about “toxic masculinity” yet enforce it in men and boys. We start as girls separating the alpha males from the “quiet, weird, awkward types”. We then praise the most alpha and masculine and criticize shy boys and men and call them creeps and incels. The word incel alone should be considered a sexist male slur. By using incel as a slur you are saying that all that matters is a man’s sexual prowess, and that his sex life is what makes him a man. If we can’t slut shame women for how many people they have sex with, then why can we criticize men if they aren’t having sex? We all chase after masculinity and deem any traits that aren’t useful to us as “feminine” or “SUS” one example would be MOST women (not all) will not date a bisexual man. Why? Because we view sexual fluidity in men as less then and view it as a feminine trait for a man to like another man. We enforce this same masculine standard in our love lives and overlook kind and gentle men while we all chase the alpha men who will treat us badly. We call any minor criticism of the female sex “misogyny”, while being OPENLY sexist and misandrist against males. We say we want equality (which we have) but we don’t. If world war 3 started tomorrow you’d never see women rushing to sign up for the war like men do. We would all suddenly want to be back in the kitchen! 😂 Women have changed from being traditionally feminine to becoming more masculine, while demanding men stay the same masculine creatures they always were because it appease us. I’ve literally had a guy friend tell me women have told him he is “too nice” and “your voice isn’t deep enough” 🤦🏻♀️ time we take actual equal accountability ladies!
Why some women would complain if a guy its too nice? Wtf Many women like bisexual men or men with femenine traits also. But anyway, both are the problem in this, men & women.
I truly wish that these conversations centered compassion for the very real people that are struggling in the modern day Healthy masculinity is supposed to act as the more desirable counterpart to Toxic masculinity but it too is, all too often, depicted as emasculating and deserving of ridicule. So when you have something that isn't working despite public outcry telling you that it should, to a certain extent, it makes sense that so many men would get frustrated and revert back to the Toxic masculinity which has arguably worked for generations before them. Now that isn't a defense of toxic masculinity or extremism but an attempt at raising a question that many men in society are struggling to find themselves without hurting others and still find the love that they feel that they need and the vast majority it seems have absolutely no way of doing that. Looking at it in that way, I think it's understandable that so many of them fall into despair
I think one of the contributing factors to the problem is the way we tend to connect bad behavior with masculinity, implying (unintentionally) that a "good" person is less of a man. Imagine if we applied the same thing to toxic behaviors widely considered "feminine," such as spreading gossip, throwing shade, judging people on their fashion sense, or self-toxic behaviors such as anorexia. Imagine trying to discourage these behaviors, and a backlash responding with "you're trying to turn women into men." Almost certainly, it would result in an increase in these types of toxic behaviors.
This comparison doesn't work. Things like spreading gossip and throwing shade aren't things that women claim for themselves as desirable traits. They're part of misogynistic stereotypes about women, ie that all women are bitchy and shallow. A lot of "masculine" traits and behaviors like being aggressive, demeaning women, not being sensitive, etc. ARE things that men themselves have historically promoted as positive traits and important to their identities. It's why "masculinity" is now being criticized.
You know for centuries gossip was considered a sin, right? You know women still get slut shamed and victim blamed, right? Femininity has always been under attack.
As a woman I use to “fall” for these archetypes but we can also do our own work, pour love acceptance into our own being, get to know ourselves. Then when you encounter this, in screen or real life that pull will be gone. For the women out there, attraction to the toxicity is a measure and signal to our own wounds.
IMO greatest cost to toxic men, is that you'll never truly be known by those around you. The toxic masculinity front is impermeable to anything that resembles true intimacy, which is essential to every human being.
Like no he shouldn’t be roasted for wearing a skirt, (allegedly) terrorizing his ex wife and children however puts him firmly in toxic masculinity territory.
@AA BB Angelina Jolie came forward with evidence that he physically abused her and one of their sons, it was the inciting incident leading to their divorce. It's been swept under the rug more or less. From what I understand he was dealing with alcohol issues at the time but a lot of people have chosen just to ignore it or blame her due to her background.
When an assertive active male is placed beside a passive unwilling to state a want male, women will prefer assertive. The feminist male is misrepresented as weak and incapable. There is a middle ground-the guy who will listen and change a tire.
I'd argue that there is a huge difference between real and fictional toxic guys and they kind of should be discussed separately. Fictional ones are safe and fun to play around with - and they often make for more interesting stories - while there's a reason the manosphere pickup-artist shitskittles are very much not successful at getting women in real life. Another reason why the toxic masculine fictional dudes are so popular is that they're usually hot while the good guys often just plain aren't. But fictional good guys who are also good-looking and confident quickly grow a following too - Kotallo from Horizon: Forbidden West is a prominent (even non-white and disabled!) example who took the fangirls by storm.
While talking about it, it’s really unfair to forget that the most “bad toxic guys” internet falls in love with are directly depending on the actors charisma and their previous roles. Most of them were already introduced to public through their earlier roles as good guys or in the to shows that makes the targeted audience feels nostalgic. You can not cast previous Doctor Whos and expect people not to fall in love with Daemon or Killgrave. Alone seeing those actors on screen will bring memories of the childhood no matter how brutal the scene is. Damon from Vampire Diaries had arguably the worst writing from all the main characters. I can’t remember any of his plotlines besides being inlove with Elena. But the character was adored thanks to Ian. And don’t forget that when the show started his very much popular character on Lost was just killed off. He was literally the only actor people were onboard with after their casting for VD was announced. Don Draper was never internet boyfriend. I remember more people fangirling over Roger and later even Pete. Again two actors having association with early aired tv shows. Edward was never intended to be a bad boy. It’s just a bad writing and shift in society. We call Ross from Friends toxic now. So it makes no sense to include him in the bad boy category if the audience at the point of airing did not consider him such.
I think the term "toxic" term is getting so overused that it's losing its meaning, thus facilitating the backlash. There's other words that are more specific and appropriate to describe behaviors that are wrong
@@LilacSreya if he is physically, verbally, emotionally or economically abusive, jealous, controlling, a liar, talks behind your back, changes who he is...
To be fair...Why does everyone think Joker was about anything other than mental illness, and conditions of how we are treated? Joker was ill, as a result of toxicity. He was abused. Again and again. He had a choice. Sadly he chose to become an abuser, because our society doesn't recognize empathy or compassion. Arthur didn't have to become the Joker, the apathy of society wasn't there to show him a different way. He was crying out for help. Nobody ever really read his journal. I don't condone killing, or other behaviors in the movie. But they were there to make a point. He was nobody in society, but a god to the anti-social. Would we go with that? I have been part of the system as a child and briefly as an adult. Nobody knows the cruelty of people more than the marginalized. Those without voices. But... Arthur chose wrong. The moment he took a life. I suppose he did give over to the toxicity. But I really see him more than a conduit of toxicity than toxic. The things we didn't do yesterday can bite us in our ass. Maybe was 2nd Gen toxic? Generational trauma. Thank goodness I got help, and I am committed to positivity. I've never felt as validated by a film more than Joker. Sorry for going way off topic.
I remember reading somewhere that progress is often met with an increase in more regressive beliefs because disturbing their grasp of power makes them insecure & they desperately try to reassert it through anger & fear. So I just tell myself that if there is all this backlash, then women must be doing something right. It also helps me sleep at night knowing that I get to see strong female & nonbinary unity through my lifetime and won’t go out believing that there will never be a place for me in this world like the other women in my family did. We have a tool that other feminist movements have never had in the past: widespread unity across the globe. There is strength in numbers & we have never dissected patriarchy like we are doing rn. It is depressing af and not good enough but it brings me an ounce of peace knowing that I’ll get to experience more support for speaking out against sexism than any of our ancestors ever did, even if we are still met with the same amount of backlash from men
as ridiculous as i find the Red Pill community and manosphere in general, I can not, for the life of me, figure out how "make your bed first thing in the morning" became a radical suggestion to people who are heavily lambasted for messiness and lack of responsibility
The problem is we chastised the external and didn't address the internal, AGAIN. We didn't build the masculine aspect into the upper half of the chakra system in alignment with universal laws. This is all a holographic reflection of how we are collectively maintaining our spines. We live in a predominantly standing and sitting upright culture. The internal work is being done though. Perhaps the MeToo movement was a byproduct of our initially remote viewing from all perspectives and atoning for the sins of the toxic male from first person perspective. But our quick reversion back into toxic male idolatry worship is a testament to the fact that yet again we didn't acknowledge the physics involved in evolution. As more of us actively participate in evolution, that reversion will change into a transmutation of the masculine into a more realized form. Really looking forward to that, because the divine masculine is way hotter than what we have currently.
Okay let’s not group Joe Rogan in with toxic men just because out almost 2000 episodes he sometimes interviews “brofluencers” he is a loving caring father of three daughters that actually speaks out against toxic males if you actually to some of the 2000 episodes of his podcast. The dude just wants everyone to be nice to each other.
Most of these examples are not 'toxic men'. They're well-written, flawed characters. Most of them aren't glamorised by the creators. It's only a few people on the internet that glamorise such behaviors and such people. Edit: People like Andrew Tate are NOT 'most of these examples'. But Joker is.
I think the problem is that a lot of women perpetuate the idea of the toxic male in every male, while equally assuming that women are basically perfect. In response, many men who are disillusioned with feminism are pushing back with the toxic male idea almost just because it's what will get the most provocative reaction Edit: Further to my point, I think the term "toxic" gets thrown around so much that people seem to just use it to describe anyone they dislike which is not a valid enough use for it. I think that's why there's this backlash Another edit: your point about the "so called being down on men and boys" is not really a fair representation of what's been going on. It's exactly because men and boys are often made to feel small and useless in our current culture that things like the toxic masculinity trends are more appealing - if you won't be accepted then you might as well be provocative
@@dolldeer I'm not sure about education systems across other countries but across the US, Canada and UK, education is generally catered towards girls rather than boys. The statistics they gave in this video are useful for understanding that. Also, looking at current pop-culture, there is commonly a condescending depiction of men and boys as silly, stupid, butt-of-the-joke, or just plain useless characters who need to learn from those around them (in contrast to many perfect/overpowered women). Obviously, there are always exceptions, but modern feminism doesn't exactly do anything to make peace with the battle of the sexes
@@abispanner3957 It used to be that women wouldn't go to school, and at the time, school was made by men for men. Then when women entered school they just beat the boys in terms of grades. So it doesn't really prove that school was made for girls. Personally, my intuition is just that boys tend to defy authority more and are more hyperactive, while girls are more calm and obedient, which leads to better grades. From my own experience, boys tended to miss school more, take more drugs, play more video games which would all get in the ways of study. It could also be the way they get parented that leads to lower grades, maybe people are more strict on girls. In my school I was in a class full of girls because I was in art, and the other class was a sport class which was full of boys. It was well known that classes with more girls in it were easier to teach to because girls were more obedient. I would actually argue that it's toxic masculinity that keeps boys from having better grades. Also there's the fact that women mature faster physically than boys, which means the boys will be small and frail while the girls are already fully formed, which will make boys feel insecure because they biologically take more time to mature. I also saw a study that shows that girls had better grades in school that are girls-only, while boys had lower grades in schools that were boys-only. When girls were mixed with boys, the girls had lower grades and the boys had higher grades. So for a girl it's better to be in a girls-only school but for boys it's better to mix them with girls. I think that disproves that school favors girls. "depiction of men and boys as silly, stupid, butt-of-the-joke, or just plain useless characters who need to learn from those around them (in contrast to many perfect/overpowered women)" I think that's a selection bias. You probably refer to comedy shows that tend to depict men as idiots and women as exasperated by men, but you forget ALL THE OTHER MOVIES, like Avengers, Star Wars, Lord of the rings, all the BIG franchise that everyone watches, all the main characters are strong,, couurageous male lead, far from being weak, meak and silly, while women are often portrayed as "side chicks" who do literally nothing. When there's a main female lead it's called "progressist".
@@thisisntallowed9560 we'll have to agree to disagree since we seem to be looking at different evidence. But in terms of using the past to justify putting men down doesn't help anyone. And regarding the movies - star wars is 1980s (and i find that almost every 80s movie has bad characters - terrible role models for men and badly written female characters, though at least Leah stands up for herself somewhat). Lord of the Rings is early 2000s (not current culture) and Avengers is a mix of female and male characters but plenty of overpowered females (which makes them less relatable). Also, when we consider recent movies/TV shows of the same franchises - all of them have overpowered female characters and almost all of them have stupid men (Rings of Power, Thor Love/Thunder, almost all the new star wars properties, the list goes on). I have no problems with female leads or male leads, I just want a fair balance where characters a relatable rather than this 'revenge' mentality that tries to put men down just because women were looked down on in the past
As career women, entrepreneurs, or even just a woman that's held a job in your life, I am DISGUSTED that you implied the Try Guys were over-reacting to the abuse of power that threatened their business and livlihood. They reacted the way every other business SHOULD react to a workplace 'romance' of such unequal power.
The answer to toxic masculinity is gay men and heterosexual men skirts?😂😂 This is why men turn to Andrew Tate..whoever scripted this video lost the plot
Jordan Peterson's message is more about personal responsibility than anything else. It's more like "Get your sh*t together before you try and change the world" which is pretty good advice for anyone.
The dude eating the testicle at the end of this smart ass video sent me hahaha very important topic, I see the struggles in my little brothers and I am trying to uplift them as encourage them to show their emotions, my mom does it too and its a beautiful thing how theyve grown and became better men by opening up to us. Positive masculity is a beautiful thing
@@Rage-_-Quit failure? Haha they both got great girlfriends, know what career path they want to follow. Have great relationship with their family and friends and got no addictions. They are winning life surrounded by love!Hope you find the same.
Marlon Brando was shocked at the audience reaction to Stanley Kowalski. A lot of actors were surprised at the audiences loving characters who were supposed to be repulsive assholes. It seems like audiences are defective. Why do audiences emulate jerks and completely miss the point of the movie as if it was a "nice guy"?
I think that these “new toxic masculinity” is successful in media because the characters are more rounded people, better written, more complex. And these traits are not exclusively for “bad boys”. Sadly the “new good guys” (less traditionally masculine, queer, insert new trope here) have no flaws or not relatable mistakes, they are just good for goods sake and for me that’s not believable and make them less interesting and hard to truly root for. And again before some one crucifies me, “good guys” can also be interesting if they’re well written.
I don’t think Edward is at the level of any of these other guys. At least he cares about consent and tries to overcome his monstrous nature. That’s why Christian Grey is so terrible. He’s Edward if he had no capacity to improve himself.
If I remember correctly, he used to watch her sleep before she knew about it. Plus, he had sex with a human, knowing full well that if he lost control, he could kill her. He's, I don't know, a hundred years old? And she is a teenager. He doesn't care for consent, the thing is that he is so controlling and manipulative (and pretty) that people forget how much he disregards Bella's wellfare.
@@tlf2818 1) yeah IRL that's super creepy, but considering that all Bella is concerned about is wether or not he heard her talk in her sleep it's also a useless argument. It's hard to feel uncomfortable with something that the point-of-view character has absolutely no problem with. Or even considers. 2) He didn't want to have sex with her for exactly that reason. Bella more or less pressures him into it because SHE is the thirsty one. He has the most PG behavior (sexuality wise). In fact, sex isn't even mentioned until Bella voices her desire for it somewhere in the third book. 3)The whole "but he is so old" is stupid. If he actually *acted* like he was that old it would be different but he is very clearly supposed to be a teen. Its the same with anime. Just because you tell me that that 12 yo looking girl is thousand years old doesn't mean the main character can just lust after her without me thinking he is a problematic pedo. The people creating those characters often dont get what being that old would actually do with a person. They are not actually writing ancient people. 4) Yeah, he is controling. By far not as bad as Christian but that's a rather low bar to clear, I suppose. The only thing that makes it a little better is that most of these instances happen when Bella very obviously wants to martyr herself. She honestly has the self-preservation of a lemming. 5) Where does he not take consent seriously? I have never heard that argument before and am wondering how it came up?
I agree and I also didn't like how they mentioned Edward in the sense that in a love triangle they always chose the toxic one. I'd say Jacob is way more toxic and as he actually assaults Bella and kisses her without her consent and is not sorry.
@@ForeverRememberable I think the problem is that he (Jacob) started out as the more acceptable choice (yknow, the "funny-guy" who you can laugh with. The one who has seen you at your worst and still sticks by you) and then suddenly took a nosedive to sexual harasser and nice-guy™. So by the point he had turned bad people didn't want to aknowledge the sudden change. Edit: yeah, that kiss scene was where any compassion for both him and Charlie completely died for me.
@@lexa2310 yeah I see exactly what you mean. Personally I was never a fan of Jacob and once he shifted the first time he became a completely unlikeable person but I believe by that time Stephanie Meyer was already in love with Jacob and since we're reading it through Bella's eyes it doesn't come across like Jacob is bad to a lot of people. I wasn't a fan of Jacob the moment Bella chose Edward and Jacob couldn't respect that, even at the end of New Moon he's like that so by the time he kissed Bella was I already disgusted with him and had no sympathy for him. I am really disappointed in how Stephanie Meyer wrote Charlie's reaction though because even though he hates Edward and like Jacob it just doesn't seem in character for him to react that way. I love Charlie but that ruined book Charlie for me, movie Charlie is better than book Charlie though.
Honestly, you all need to stop putting Jordan Peterson in the same boat as Andrew Tate etc. Have you actually listened to a lecture of his? I'm definitely not his target audience and obviously there are things I as a queer woman would phrase differently and disagree with but the way he reaches men of a certain group and talks them off the right extremist ledge? He encourages them towards therapy, actually processing their emotions, confronting them with their own biases and away from pornography, agression and competitive thinking-it's actually quite impressive. He should definitely not be seen as the be all, end all of a man's journey but he is such a good influence on guys who would otherwise be drawn towards the Andrew Tates of the world or even worse right extremist and extremely sexist groups. So maybe let's not put them all in the same boat?
If the goal is to make sure overall we have less toxic masculinity in the world maybe let's try to not aliante people who are doing just that. We need to give people the space to turn around and move towards a healthier attitude.
Ashitaka from princess Mononoke, Corto Maltese and several main characters from Clint Eastwoods movies are good examples of men who are brave and even strong but that believe in doing whats right and in humanity above anything else. Clint Eastwoods movies stand out in particular for how well they deconstruct toxic masculinity, and promote values like honor and kindness instead. A video about them would be interesting
Getting in touch with emotions -Yes Caring for those I love -Yes Wearing a skirt to show sensitivity -No Wearing makeup and mascara -Hell No bullshit Just because one is sensitive and caring doesn't mean their weak I.e Keanu Reeves,Jahseh Onfroy(XXXTentacion) Jordan Peterson and Henry Cavill those are my prime examples of the future of masculinity
Disappointed the Take did not examine Everything, Everywhere, All At Once and how the Waymon character is a subversion of the Hollywood weak beta male archetype. See the Pop Culture Detective 's "Everyone Everywhere Needs Waymond Wang".
This is one of my top 10 favorite channels on TH-cam. I'm not on Twitter I'm barely ever on Facebook or Instagram or any other social media. Go through the channel I have been learning about how other people feel about media, fictional characters real real people. I've been continually shocked at how much people go out of their way to defend the ugly parts and ugly people in life. Because of my lack of social media presence if it really wasn't for channels like this I would have no idea what was going on in the Zeitgeist of today. Thank you for all the help you have you've given me and being able to keep up with what's going on with others.
Ezra Miller should be up there, doesn't matter if men are non binary, trans, bi, gay, asexual, toxic masculinity is still toxic masculinity regardless of the gender fluid
While I agree with the thesis of this video, some of the clips are taken out of context, weakening the video. For example, the dude talking about taking a pill on the Joe Rogan show is Paul Stamets is a mycologist, and they are talking about using different mushrooms as nutritional supplements. The video has nothing to do with the reactionary male movement, even though some of Rogan's guest do.
1. I wonder how exactly the Joker promotes the ideal of toxic male when it portrays a ruined man with mental health issues who never got help due to the failed society (the movie is very white and avoids raising any race-related questions that should have been raised, but otherwise it is not a glorification of toxic behavior or whatsnot). 2. I think that mixing together some sexy fictional bad boys and literal criminals was not the best idea. I understand that the idea was to show the cultural shift and the influence of fiction on real life, but it felt inconsiderate. Also, some points feel really surface level. 3. I loved and watched your channel for a long time, but recent videos seem to lack nuance and depth. Idk what changed, but you just seem to translate the most loud Twitter/TikTok takes without thorough analysis.
When we stopped canceling men for serious things like rape, misogyny in the workplace, and physical abuse and started calling them out for bad dates and looking at girls at the gym we destroyed any credibility the movement had.
Whether you intended to or not, your comment planted another seed of doubt for victims. That’s like saying Amber Heard destroys all credibility for female victims of abuse. Statistically, there is evidence indicating these crimes happen on a disproportionate level, with males being the usual perpetrator. The majority of violent/sexual crimes in the United States alone are perpetrated by males on average higher than vice versa. That is a fact. How does a minority % of women falsely accusing *or* perpetrating abuse, or even being dramatic greatly outweigh the credibility of hundreds of thousands of other victims? Even false accusations on average are dismissed in court, despite men hyping it up to be a regular occurrence. Before cancel culture, we had the Me Too Movement. But who exactly took that movement seriously besides feminist? Notice how men and conservative women immediately shut them down and accused them of lying for attention. A movement for victims will always be dismissed in a patriarchal world. After all, it’s just a movement full of bitter, lying whores with an agenda to destroy an innocent man’s reputation, right?
Yes just blame women. Has nothing to do with men and their fragile egos going around literally raping and murdering women beyond measure and failing to even recognize or penalize these crimes…🙄
Elliot Alderson, Marty Deeks, Ryuuchi Kashima and Kim Do-Ki are the new kind of men who completely broke the toxic patriarchy in their series. They may seem like the troubled wounded bad boy but are more sensitive, feminine, kind, driven and independent men who aren't afraid to be vulnerable (Deeks is more like the Manic Pixie Dream Guy) and are capable of fixing themselves and standing up for themselves and others. Even Daniel's iteration of James Bond joined the group of them.
I really feel like this kind of video serves to be more divisive than anything else, whilst I recognise that shit people exist no matter what, the term ‘toxic male’ (or female for that matter) is so over played and click baity that it only serves to piss off those that are maligned with it, or galvanise those that already hate the protagonists. It seems like these people exist or become popular in spite of being called out by their equally opposite and opposing gender based commentators, and this is just so common and regular now that it is freaking boring. It’s not that I dream of a fictional lala land where it’s all rainbows and puppy dogs and the sexes all get along without a hint of maleficence, but come on, this is just so stupid now.
the only people that can get cancelled are people that are dependent on industries for income. No one really gets cancelled. only fired. but you cant fire an idea.
Why do people keep using Jordan Peterson as an example of toxic males his literal thing is to help guys grow up there is a literal a quote of him saying that if girls keep rejecting you their not the problem
Films often portray these hyper masculine, cool guy tropes in unrealistic ways, most often having major character development and opening up at the end/changing. That barely exists in real life. It's a fantasy.
Maybe I'm not looking to the right direction but I've never heard professor Jordan Peterson support toxic ideas for men, probably because I've been following him only superficially for the past years.I don't know but I see how he refers to his daughter and spouse always with respect and encourages men to better themselves.
There's a lot of content of him saying messed up stuff, however they make sure to push the more normal stuff and save the icky stuff to once you already trust him. That's not on you, however I would caution anyone to make sure you're familiar with all the views of any pundits or influencers before stating you're a fan of them and their points. Their agendas are counting on everyone not doing that.
Most of what people will point to regarding him being 'toxic' is just Dr. Jordan Peterson stating statistical facts. And facts about human psychology and behavior that have been scrutinized and analyzed for decades before being stated as such and not just 'his opinion' like they would have you believe. They are reasonable arguments but the 'woke' culture doesn't exactly respond well to reason and logic and I'm sure you can imagine why. Most people that google something like 'why jordan peterson bad?' end up staying and becoming fans because he is one of the few prominent figures actually making sense out here. He is a voice of reason and people can't stand it. It's kinda funny tbh.
@@Chethan_Udayashankar Are you basing this on short Tweets? If you want a better judge of character, he's got thousands of hours of free, long-form conversation you can watch online. That way you're not just reducing him to 'comes off really emotionally immature on twitter' and actually have a better understanding of him before providing others an incomplete idea you got off Twitter.
@@maddscientist82 of course he’s going to come off better in a professional setting. What you see on twitter is a more unfiltered view of him. I also used to watch a bunch of his stuff but then started to see him for what he really is. A grifter trying to make money like every other TH-cam personality. Debating woke college kids with blue hair to get you angry and click on more of his videos. Read books/articles from someone who’s fame didn’t come from youtube. You’ll be smarter and less emotionally manipulated.
WATCH MORE: The Toxic Male may be here to stay, but the "Good Ol' Days" are supposedly a thing of the past. So why do we romanticize them onscreen and in real life? Here's our Take on who's defining the "Good Ol' Days" and why they weren't so good for everyone: th-cam.com/video/JplHO4Fk1MY/w-d-xo.html
Bad boys all way rain supreme. And it's rooted in our biology. The most dangerous and aggressive males are leader across the animal Kingdom and we aren't the exception. These toxic males are more likely to dominate in many situation. However in our modern era feminine trait like emotional intelligence and stocism are what more benefituals.
This entire video is Hollywood bs.
At the EOD, 'toxic masculinity' is essentially-
emotional strength
wanting to excel and win against your competition
disagreeableness( being able to think and act for yourself)
Essentially the same things that helped humanity progress from being monkeys in the dirt to putting us on the moon.
When pushed to extremes or when radical feminists do the marketing, these same qualities become-
"unable to show vulnerability because he's afraid"
"workaholic/money-obsessed"
"asshole"
It's all marketing bs.
And what does Brad Pitt wearing a skirt jhave to do with anything? Who cares if he wears a skirt. He is strong, good looking, talented, multimillionaire. He's attractive despite wearing the skirt not because of it.
Good luck trying to be attractive to women while you're fat, poor, untalented,ugly AND wearing a skirt.
And about the strong, gay dude in Last of Us. The man who cries and shows his feelings. Sure, men should be allowed to show their feelings. But try to find me a man who's considered valuable if he cries at the first sign of trouble.
There is a strong way to show your feelings, you can't just go around willy-nilly crying at shit. Especially, when you're leading a group of people-cuz who the fuck wants a crybaby for a leader?
There's a reason women react positively to these toxic male bad boys. And it's not to do with "conditioning".
It's to do with 100,000 years of biology where women were attracted to strong men who could keep their children safe.
And women can finger wag and say they wished men were 'nicer' or whatever but at the end of day these same women will be choosing these strong men as mates.
Good luck trying to condition people out of their biology. In the meantime, men watching this, please don't get confused.
Reject modernity, embrace masculinity.
love it
Men lead the world no matter how much you make the path adverse to him
The only way to survive this is to become the animals we were meant to be. Humanity is a lie. A lie to suppress us, to prevent us from being what we truly evolved to be. You thought you were a god. You though you could control the animal inside of us but all you really did was turn that animal in to the beast I have become. I no longer feel love. I only feel anger and hunger. And as I look into the eyes of my prey all I can see is the beast that you have unleashed.
There's a difference between "Toxic" and a man who is literally a pending criminal that will or already has a record of domestic abuse, hate crimes, sexual harassment/assault, and should not be allowed a 20 mile radius of any highschool.
Don't play it down, we were passionate to snuff it out for a reason
Good point…it’s so common and frequent that it just becomes normalized…
I'm so glad they made that exact point in the video. The way they illustrate the issue at large and how guys turn to people like tate is anything but downplaying. honestly eye opening
Women allow men like Tate to exist.
Well, They just detained him for another month so I highly doubt that he is actually a criminal.
A damn fine point.
The issue is tv and movies don’t know whether they want to idolize or mock the toxic male trope. Cam’s character in White lotus is often sexualized yet mocked. The polarizing discourse on TikTok isn’t helping either. Sometimes being neutral doesn’t help
It’s honestly so painful, jarring and gross as a SA survivor to see how society loves, lust after and is curious to know grapists stories and is quick to empathize, infantilize and glorify…
@@Thepriestessdeath cough cough Jeffrey dahmer cough cough
Being neutral helps the stronger side, and that's usually the worse side.
Neutrality enables conservativism. When conservatism is cringe (and it often is), neutrality is cringe.
you take very attractive actors to play these characters, which means they are going to be se[ualized immediately and no matter what)
Hey The Take, I feel the need to also point out that social media and algorithms therein have been a huge contributor to this phenomenon. Crazy wild misogyny is always going to get more clicks than healthy masculinity. Even if boys and men are looking for healthy models, our current communication channels make it very hard to do so in the never ending war for just 30 seconds of their attention.
This is incorrect though the algorithm only feeds you back what retains peoples interest. These guy's get popular not because the algorithms boost them artificially. But instead the algorithm boosts them because they are popular. If you click on cat videos the whole day the algorithm will feed you cat videos the whole day.
Bro, don't blame the algorithms.
The algorithm doesn't make lefties group up and bully someone who TANGENTIALLY reminds them of a misogynyst or a transphobe or a homophobe for a straight hour. . . . .
@@bigpapichampagne745 It's been well documented how tribalism and conspiracy theories can grow more popular due to the way social media feeds boost provocative information. This isn't only individual choice, its the systems of communication people work in.
I love your profile picture. And you are correct, outrage is more profitable than mild and rational thinking. More outrage means more comments, more views, more discussion. People don't realice how much they feed the monster trying to antagonize it.
@@bigpapichampagne745 But if there’s a related video that’s more provocative…like ‘cats are being abused! 10 of the worst offenders!’…then if it draws more clicks, TH-cam will feed you that.
Not long ago you posted a video about how the word "toxic" has been trivialized. I think that taking a man who is not capable of regulating their emotions and putting him in the same category as literally sexual predators is a very dangerous thing.
👏🏻
Both are toxic though? I don't think it's making the statement that they are the same point on the toxic spectrum.
@@pflynn623 it's immature, not toxic. Most things categorized as "toxic masculinity" are just things people under 25 do because everyone is an immature weenie at that age.
i dont think that toxic males are those who cant regulate their emotions. we dont shit on males who are sad, angry, overwhelmed or depressed. toxic males are those who peddle the hate of supremacy. i would also call a woman who mocks a man's emotions toxic. that doesnt mean i would compare her to an abuser or child molester.
The two are not exclusive nor are they the same. There is lots of overlap. A man who is not capable of regulating their emotions could very well become a sexual predator.
I will say that there's a toxicity to someone acting like he's an ally when all he wants is to be a rescuer - that "pretty wounded birds" line made my hackles rise.
If you watch the series he actually ends up being pretty normal. Like a dopey teenager.
@@Aaron-kj8dv if you watch the series he ends up getting fucked by his own savior complex
[spoilers]
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We all expected Albie to play the "nice guy" trope that turns out to be a toxic male, but turns out he really is just a nice guy, a little too idealistic, hypocritical, and with rich privelage to top it off.
For $50,000 he could rescue a prostitute. Is that toxic masculinity? I don't think so. There's nothing wrong with wanting to rescue someone you think is in real danger. He admits to his father that it could be a scam, but that it doesn't matter because they're so rich that the money means nothing to them, but could mean the world to her. He considered it Karmic Justice for his father cheating on his wife.
Also turns out, he already spoke to his mom prior to making this deal with his father, so he wasn't even selling out his mom. Again, Mike White subverting the audiences expectations like a genius.
Yup! He was eager to play the savior role to Lucia, never mind that he would’ve been a position of control over he had she not played him. It’s a different form of domination but playing the savior is a form of superiority complex
It's called the sneaky fucker phenomenon. In the animal kingdom some males can inhibit their masculine traits to get close to the female without her noticing or the dominant male, then force sex on females in the right moment.
how is wearing a skirt or a dress going to help with “toxic masculinity”? pretty sure marilyn manson has wore them for years, and still is considered “toxic”
Lol! Good point 😀
He's considered toxic because of all the claims of sexual assault, not for wearing a skirt. He's hardly the only cis man who's been making that fashion choice in the last few decades, in fact I wouldn't have even thought of him initially if asked to make a list.
@@thegirlabides6851 the point is that wearing a skirt or dress alone shouldn’t be held up as not being toxic. They brought up Brad Pitt in that section and he was literally accused of drunkenly attacking his family on a private plane last October.
That part. Toxicity is just the tip of the ice burg when it comes to that dude. In fact there are alot of bros that would consider him a "soyboy"
Exacty. This entire video is posturing. Fact is at the EOD, 'toxic masculinity' is essentially-
emotional strength
wanting to excel and win in their fields
disagreeableness(essentially being able to think and act for yourself)
When pushed to extremes or when radical feminists do marketing, these same qualities become-
"unable to show vulnerabity because he's afraid"
"workaholic/money obsessed"
"asshole"
It's all marketing bs. There's a reason women react positively to these toxic male bad boys. And it's not to do with "conditioning".
It's do with 100,000 years of biology. Good luck trying to condition people out of their biology.
I'm all for the cancellation of Andrew Tate. My life was much better not knowing he existed.
Agreed
Same here
He wasn't canceled tho. He was arrested for human trafficking. His fans still support him.
Your life maybe but I don’t have the privilege of being better off not knowing these types of dudes exist and neither do all their victims…to some people he and his follower may have just been annoying but to other people it’s scary, it’s traumatizing, night terrors, flashbacks, panic attacks that will haunt them for the rest of their life…and he is one of many and it’s important we know these MEN (again MANY) exist.
👀
Portraying toxic characters like Nate Jacob’s and Daemon does not equal Endorsement. It’s called writing you have to explore all aspects of humanity including toxicity.
Thank you!
You have to be insane to think that Nate Jacob’s is intended as a glorification of toxic masculinity
@@toshcameron366 Unfortunately, there will always be some people who have no sense of analysis and just think that showing *anything* that’s hard to digest = glorifying.
I think they're referring to the fact that the framing of some of these characters seems weird. Like casting super hot guys and saying textually that they're wrong but showing them with their shirts off in pretty lights and stuff. Like the framing contradicts the text.
@@alim.9801 ao toxic men are only supposed to be ugly, unattractive, and unappealing? We all know that's not true
I thought the Jack Pearson character in This Is Us was kind of a model for modern masculinity. I felt encouraged hearing that a lot of men watched the show and looked to Jack as an example of how to be a better husband and father.
Yeees 💯
I think that's nice, but it's also a bit problematic in this video that they mention positive masculinity and then show only two gay characters. It gives the impression that male heterosexuality itself is viewed as toxic. That will just drive more men into the arms of toxic influencers. We need positive gay role models in the media, but we also need positive hetero role models.
@@jonaskeller6399 good callout. 💯
“Anything Chris Evans does” like making a website that tried to both sides women’s rights, racial issues, & trans rights?
He’s hot. We get it. But a man looking cute with puppies ain’t deconstructing anything.
Also Brad Pitt skirt… like the man worked with Weinstein despite knowing he tried to assault Angelina. That guy is hardly good.
Exactly. They are making their money by trying what's trendy. Dressing differently doesn't make somebody a good person.
@@talkingtochapri exactly! Like speaking as a queer dude, a straight white celebrity wearing a skirt isn’t doing anything to help the cause. Actual queer ppl been transgressive like that for over a century. If Pitt really wanted to help, he would’ve helped support his wife & other woman Weinstein victimized.
Communism is needed to destroy feminism which is a plague promoted by a disgusting capitalist system.
THANK YOU I just commented how shocked I was to see Brad Pitt at the end of the video
He also helped Gwyneth paltrow from such men. Einstein had s big empire wirh hsi hands in almost eveything. Everyone has worked with him in some capacity. I dont like Brad but let's not start hating people for wrong reasons. He is shitty enough for cheating on his wife and then some.
I think a huge part of women being attracted to toxic men in media is the safety of the fictional. IRL Joe from You would be terrifying, but trough the show one can get excited about the potential danger without having to worry about their safety. I don't think that every Woman that likes a toxic fictional Character forgets about his awfulness just because he's good looking, but rather, that this can be a safe exploration of feelings not often talked about. A subset of these women might even want to explore those further in safe settings like bdsm scenes, but even then they still have the ability to stop if anything happens they don't like.
I mean just look at how women were heating up over Jeffrey Dahmer when the series premiered,he even had his own reddit forum
So basically its porn. Its a safe fantasy you experience from a far and if you're not careful your expectations of it leak into real life and how you view real relationships
IRL many women (especially young ones) fall for the same type of guy. It also has to do with the self confidence and drive that these types of men have.
Didn't a lot of people show up at the real-life Ted Bundy's trial though? I suppose he was incarcerated, but still -- he did tend to break out.
Honestly, I think a lot of this is that BOTH sexes are not yet wired/evolved to ideally live in today's urban society. A majority of men have a need to protect when there is no need to protect (when there is you generally call the cops -- marginalized neighborhoods notwithstanding, of course), while a majority of women have a need to feel protected when there is less of a need to be protected than at any point in human civilization.
So when there is nothing to protect/be protected from, what do men and women do? CREATE OR REWARD THE CREATION OF PROBLEMS so they can find the opportunities to let the roles play out.
Funnily enough this is what the Red Pill talks about. How women like bad boys and how the 30% get all the women. Because women like the same type of ideal man
Really wish they mentioned Prince Zuko as a prime example of how mentorship from a positive male role model can really a difference in the growth and development of young men.
On the other hand, I always have to remind my friends that Don Draper, Walter White and Thomas Shelby are NOT aspirational figures, they’re cautionary tales. Be more like Iroh :)
Would love to see more video essays on this topic that aren’t from brofluencers!
I always think about Zuko and Iroh, thank you for verbalizing it.
Characters like Walter White, Thomas Shelby, Rick Sanchez and such are not to be idolized, even the characters say so themselves. The writers intend them to be not idolized. However the actors playing them do have a certain charm and gravitas that attracts the audience. These incredibly talented actors are often overlooked for their characters.
Yea getting your face burned is mentorship from a positive male role model
@@octavioavila6548he was talking about his Uncle Iroh, not his father, seems like you don't really know how the show goes
Sorry, but I'm in the minority who finds Iroh to be full of shit. So i wouldn't place him as a positive male role model
Masculinity is not in crisis, patriarchy is. Also, media has warped the term toxic masculinity. It was originally about how hegemonic (*traditional or dominant) masculinity has been toxic or damaging to MEN, as in masculine expectations of being violent, hypersexual, risk-taking, etc, harms men. It's frustrating that the term and concept has been diluted and that you all imply it is somehow gender essentialist or posits that this is how men "naturally" behave. The concept argues the exact opposite. Its about how men are trained and socialized to behave with one another, women, and other genders. Our society has to start defining what masculinity is and what it means outside of patriarchy and dominance.
This is such a great point.
THANK YOU!
Isn't risk taking how we survived as a species?
This channel is part of the problem. Boys and young men are screaming out help, and women are saying there isn't a problem. They are doing the same thing men did in the past, but they are supposed to be better
@@Chris-rg6nm women aren't saying there isn't a problem. We're saying it is your problem and you need to be called out and do the work to get it fixed.
In my opinion, insisting that male celebrities who wear women's clothing should be looked up to as the standard of masculinity, is part of the reason that "brofluencers" are so popular.
Sounds to me like the problem is assuming that Brad Pitt wearing women's clothing one day of his life is an attempt to replace the standard of masculinity, rather than an attempt to expand it to be more inclusive to people who are marginilized. I don't expect "broinfluencer" followers to have that much going on upstairs, considering how lucrative the supplement scam is.
Fr really shows how out of touch they are with what appeals to us
What does clothing have to do with being self imporving & valuable to look up to? Would a man wearing a suit be better even if he's full of bull? It's shallow & shows how restrictive we see "good" men or men in general.
@@user-ooop get that whataboutism out of here
@@venicec3310 I think your're just missing the point.
Yeah but if you look in real life...marriage rates are down, birth rates are down, and the number of women living alone, unmarried and childfree are rising. Women are rejecting these men as partners and most of these men are bitter because of it.
Not the ones that invested in cat litter and boxed wine stocks
Yeah life is stressful enough I’m not dealing with another adults issues
@@Rage-_-Quit Shut it, incel.
@@Rage-_-Quit Well investing in cats & distillery business is better than investing in a manchild who can't even wash his own socks.
Why don't those men desperate for marriage & parenthood, just marry each other and adopt kids out there ????
Bly Manor did a great take on the Toxic Guy and funny enough he wasn't seen as being a good guy. I think the audience tends to have an idea of "I can fix him" or he'd "love me over everyone else" mentality when watching shows but "The Haunting of Bly Manor" showed the manipulative man and when the same behavior was put into the little boy it was seen as creepy and that was eye opening.
Yes!
Honestly they made him creepy at first but then he turned out to be more sympathetic. No complaints though, I like more complex characters. But I didn’t feel that their primary goal was to show a cautionary tale.
It’s been a while since I watched the show, which guy are you talking about again?
@@rasina1296 Peter - the love interest of Miss Jessel. When he used Miles (the little kid) it was super creepy. I like that the show kind of had a thing with putting the “good”/loving people in their favorite memories when they died but the bad/angry/hate-filled people in their worst or most painful memories. It was so creative.
@@Like_maria How was peter sympathetic?
I love the example of Bill from TLOU - especially because in the show, he's the provider for himself and Frank usually, but he also lets himself be wooed and taken care of, even if it's just a matter of enjoying fresh strawberries not only because they taste good but because Frank got him the seeds.
I think the idea that there has to be a set roles of provider\breadwinner is reductive and I’ve found that it’s often women that reinforce this role. They want a guy with a certain salary and body type (which I thought we as progressives where trying to make more realistic and accepting) all which play into these toxic tropes. Some guys feel the need to be toxic just to get women’s attention. A weird damned if you do and damned if you don’t where everyone loses.
@@gabrielidusogie9189 so basically your point is that men need to be toxic because women don't give certain men attention? i'm sorry but if a man feels the "need to be toxic" perhaps he should look inward on himself...
@@chaaaargh not toxic but feel the need to look up to certain toxic people. I’m not speaking for myself but from what I’ve observed. And you’re right, men should should inward but what’s happening outward could use some extra pairs of eyes as well.
As a guy, I'd like to be wooed, too. But that just isn't offered very often except by other men, which I'm not into
@@chaaaarghmaybe not you but some women are indeed attracted to toxic men
One of the things, I find most disturbing currently, are more and more female influencers or TH-camrs who lash out against the slightest hints of feminism, or take protective attitudes towards males, who are accused of behaving in toxic or even abusive manners.
There are many waves of feminism, some of them are really toxic and have a hate men mentality. I'm a Christian myself and I'm very critical of some of what the Church and our members do. Just because you are a female doesn't mean you can't criticize or scrutinize feminism. You should be critical of everything.
That's correct, they are a lot of women who are against any hint of feminism or women's rights.
@@bibianaguadalupeislasherre9880While also benefiting from women’s rights.
@@Felicite-Etoile its like crying about capitalism while also benefiting from capitalism
Internalized misogyny
To be Frank being an asshole is always going to be thing. No amount of hashtags and college psychology papers is going to get rid of that. The best thing to do is to show consequences for that behavior and healthy alternatives.
I disagree about the hashtag and papers part but I agree with everything else you said.
I was talking to a coworker the other day and we were talking about how comfortable we are being assholes as we get older.
I used the example of being in the gym and someone trying to have a conversation with me where before I'd be polite and kind of passive and hint that I need to workout and now I'm like "listen dude, I'm not here to chit chat or have girl talk, I'm here to workout so leave me alone".
The consequences of asshole behavior is getting laid. And men will continue to learn from that.
People always have to fight for their rights on every level, after all it's human nature to be opportunistic and selfish, cruel even.. Some more some less. We need to take responsibility for us and our safety and take action. Always.
Yes but the toxic masculinity assholes are more systemic based
I remember reading somewhere that progress is often met with an increase in more regressive beliefs because disturbing their grasp of power makes them insecure & they desperately try to reassert it through anger & fear. So I just tell myself that if there is all this backlash, then women must be doing something right. It also helps me sleep at night knowing that I get to see strong female & nonbinary unity through my lifetime and won’t go out believing that there will never be a place for me in this world like the other women in my family did. We have a tool that other feminist movements have never had in the past: widespread unity across the globe. There is strength in numbers & we have never dissected patriarchy like we are doing rn. It is depressing af and not good enough but it brings me an ounce of peace knowing that I’ll get to experience more support for speaking out against sexism than any of our ancestors ever did, even if we are still met with the same amount of backlash from men
read more!!!
Thank you so much for writing this. I needed that!
Thank you for this.
The first part you said is correct. I am a black woman and I think of how in Martin Luther Kings lifetime, he was disliked by most Americans. Now, look at things. He's considered a hero and his impact has improved the condition of our people in many ways. Sure we still face a lot of issues, but we've come a long way. Similarly, these regressive beliefs are being held on to by a loud group of people precisely because they are dying off.
@@a.d.w8385 yes exactly!! Not at all surprised how there’s been an insurgence in yt supremacist groups after BLM in 2020
I think an extension of this issue of how Toxic Masculinity isn't really going anywhere is the constant shootings that have been happening. I know some of the are because of white supremacy and racism but a lot have been committed by disillusioned, troubled men who want everyone to feel just as hurt as they feel. The lack of access to personal connections within the community and lack of access to mental health professionals. I also have struggled myself with mental issues and lacking proper, healthy coping skills. I sometimes have decided it's best to just stay isolated and away from others because I have felt overwhelmed. Not knowing how to manage.
Thank you for sharing this real perspective! From what I've read up on for how men struggle today, you've hit the nail on the head. The promise of if you just adhere to the masculine ideal, everything will work out in your favor is just not true for most men and its super disappointing. Whether its struggling to get a good job, have fun sex, or have fulfilling connections with others, lots of what men are taught to be doesn't create those opportunities. What i'll say is that men are deserving of love and support from their communities. My two cents would be to encourage you to 1) let the people in your life know you appreciate them and how they help you grow as a person. 2) learn what kind of pleasure would be satisfying for you and take pride in knowing that s*x can be more than power and control. 3) Try seeing how other's accomplishments will help you and your community too, rather than seeing everything as a competition to be won or lost. Life can be really hard and painful but removing your idea of yourself from hierarchical thinking can really make a difference.
@@robinita46853 thank you for you advice. Thank you also for being understanding. I appreciate it.
I have also, in my mind, linked the problematic toxic men to mass shootings. They seem to be getting worse and at the same time of hearing about all these shootings, the growing number of incels and alphas seems to be present too.
Then are women better at dealing with mental health problems?
I don't think I have ever heard of a mass shooting committed by a girl.
The constraints of gender roles and capitalism really harm everyone, including men. They are taught to be strong and “manly” but women are looking for sensitive, emotionally available guys. They’re losing their purpose in society, where working hard and doing well doesn’t mean you get a partner or happy life. We’re all lost, but men are having a harder time dealing with it because seeking help make them feel weak, a big no-no. We need to change the way we think about these issues all together.
We should really quit it with those stories in which guys like this especially if they have anger issues and are prone to bullying others are paired up with the most sweetest gentlest innocent girl possible who's put in a position to fix him because only she seems to see the good in him. Just this overall tope has to die.
Art is a reflection of reality
Loney boy wants a girlfriend. Lonely boy tries being "nice". Lonely boy is rejected. Lonely boy sees Toxic Male. Toxic Male is crushing it. Lonely boy becomes a Toxic Male as well. That's the pattern. So I think it's mostly a problem of kids lacking positive male role models they can look up to instead.
Women need to stop giving toxic males attention.
To add to this. Lonely boy sees media where lonely Nice Boy/Nice Guy gets gets girl or girl gets shows interest in him for...reasons(it's wish-fulfilment). Lonely boy gets inspired and acts nice expecting reward missing the point that fictional nice guys are nice as a matter of course and not because of expectations of reward. This leads to growth in bitterness and nihilism thinking that being nice is fake BS acts put on by people as well as toxic views of male displays of softness, compassion, and emotional openess.
being nice for the sake of getting accepted by girl or anyone is the real problem
and women also give attention(power) to Toxic male
@@boss.k1504 Yeah, d*mb females giving this dude attention is a huge problem.
Andrew Tate being arrested a couple days before NYE felt like a sign, and gave me immense hope for 2023 🤣
I'm so happy Andy Tate got arrested.
Why?
I don't like how you used Brad Pitt in this video as an example of some new, better form of masculinity. His whole wearing-women's-clothing thing is a PR move meant to get people talking about his "fashion style" instead of his alleged abuse of Angelina Jolie and their children.
Plus, the only reason why he can get away with wearing a skirt is because he's famous and attractive. If a guy who isn't famous and attractive decides to wear a skirt, people would judge and bash him for it.
He’s so cringe. So much about publicity and crafting his image as a likable edgy guy. His and Angelina adopting kids from Asia and Africa is part of an egotistical white savior vision of themselves 🙄
Same thing with bad bunny doing that cornball shit. Funny how people cant see that lgqbt issues have essentially been monetized into a marketing ploy
You can't erase someone from society when he still holds sway in your own heart.
"And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed."
Khalil Gibran
There’s a fine line between men having self esteem and standing up for their ideals and being a jerk. I might be a girl, but thanks for being surrounded by male figures that were raised with values, I believe that indeed, a man can be manly without being a jerk or a bigot.
99% of behavior people blame on "toxic masculinity" is actually caused by women reacting badly to men not staying within the parameters of stereotypical male stoicism. A man is "open" with his feelings with his GF, then she gets the "ick" and is less attracted to him, or accuses him of "male fragility," or whatever. Then he learns not to be so open.
Some feminists will admit that happens, but they invariably argue that it's "patriarchy" magically forcing women to react that way. This is of course completely unquantifiable and unprovable. Men just need to be the source of blame one way or another, or the ideology falls apart.
Hard agree on some parts because I made the connection myself after my own experiences that as much as some women may want you to open up, the moment you do that later on, the few time you do open up, they will then call you toxic, or centering, or fragile to your face, and it’s funny enough feminist that do this, where they preach for men to open up more if your a male, but once you do, they will call you fragile and either blame you or the patriarchy (men) for your problems but mainly blame you, and will usually blame you for your problems or experiences because you are a male.
I love baddies, both men and women on the screen - they are often written better and are therefore more interesting.
However, I'm yet to be drawn to one of these creatures in real life , because I hope I'm grown up enough to know the difference.
It's honestly because the "real life" ones are so often just insecure pretenders. Confidence doesn't boast. So all these self-proclaimed "badasses" are just so annoying.
As a feminist who wants to get rid of toxicity, Im not sure if I agree with some of the points this video made. And no frigging way that Tate's criminal behavior is normalized to start with, most men I've met, even the toxic macho ones that care too much about what other men think of them, all generally agree that Tate went too friggin' far.
It's not men that looked up to Tate, it was young impressionable boys who were looking for a role model in all the wrong places. In fact if you looked at the stats for Tate's videos, you notice that most viewers are 13-15 year olds. Don't mistake that as normalization of Tate's predatory behavior. Instead, see it as Tate trying to groom young boys into being predators like himself.
And the troubling thing is, all of us created this problem by constantly sending out negative messages that imply that men are monsters who can't change even if they're trying to. "All white men are automatically racist", and everything else along that vein. in modern cartoons and everything else we don't even try to show examples of positive masculinity so that there are positive role models for those boys anymore. Instead, men and boys are always stupid and need to be saved by girls all the time. I know we're making up for older cartoons that were sexist, and that we definitely need more girl power cartoons... but it feels like we went all the way to the other extreme end, where instead of helpless idiotic damsels it's now helpless idiotic dudes. Sexism against boys and men doesn't do anything to actually help us solve sexism against women and girls.
all it does is push men and boys away, and drives the more impressionable ones into the arms of charismatic predators like Tate, who tries to groom them into his way of thinking.
Couldn’t have said it better. I’m trying to become a writer to call
Out the rise of toxic masculinity. I truly think as a feminist men and women need to build each other up and not tear each other down.
I thought y’all said we shouldn’t use the word toxic?!?
"It's ok when we do it"
In all fairness Alby was also toxic. He was an insecure nice guy who extorted his toxic dad, and sold out his loving mother all to buy himself an exotic $50000 girlfriend…and he still considered himself “the good guy”
STRAIGHT UP FACTS I mean there’s also Shane from Season one who’s also a toxic man who is in fact an entitled man baby from a Rich family who’s too focused on winning the Battle with its season Resident Manager Armond over the rights on getting the right room whom he made it clear he’d booked it while ignoring his newlywed wife’s feelings The hard working and Grounded middle class Rachel
that's where they lost me
Alibe actually was NOT toxic. It's easy to assume he's the "nice guy" trope when we're first introduced to him.
So when he decides to use $50,000 to rescue a prostitute from her pimp, we all thought this confirms our bias that he's a toxic guy. But, Is that toxic? I don't think so. There's nothing wrong with wanting to rescue someone you think is in real danger. He admits to his father that it could be a scam, but that it doesn't matter because they're so rich that the money means nothing to them, but could mean the world to her. He considered it Karmic Justice for his father cheating on his wife. He was willing to let someone keep $50,000 for scamming him, and not even file a police report. If this is toxic masculinity, then please send it my way.
Also, turns out, he already spoke to his mom before making this deal with his father, so he wasn't even selling out his mom. Mike White was subverting the audiences expectations again. Albie talked to his mom, probably because he was willing to help out his father after warming up to him over the course of their vacation. Relationships are complex. We also don't know what exactly what he told his mother.
Albie's flaw is every man's flaw, his achilles cock. He thinks he's better than his father and grandfather because he learned about toxic masculinity, but he still glances at hot girls, just like them, and he still tries to buy off girls, just like them. Though, he's different, in that he really is trying to do the right thing for women. He at the very least attempts to understand the issues that women face. Even if at the core of it, his cock is what's driving these decisions, because perhaps there's no escape from that biological desire. He's much more complex and not as bad as some people make him out to be.
maybe we should stop using the word “toxic” so vaguely
No lol. 😐😑.
I can't help but feel like you kind of missed the mark with this one. I know this is a channel dedicated to pop culture, but there are so many larger social and economic factors contributing to this. Men today do not feel insecure because they hadn't seen Brad Pitt wear a skirt. It has a lot to do with the rise in social isolation, which disproportionally affects men. There was that recent Pew study that showed a record number of men under 30 (more than half) were not romantically or sexually involved with anyone and had not been for more than a year. Most importantly, 15% said they had 0 friends. None at all!
We live in a world that has completely torn down the old expectations of how men should act, but the ever-changing cultural landscape makes the new expectation feel like a moving target. Combine this with the pandemic that has pushed more of our interactions online, and you have more men than ever who feel confused, isolated, and most of all hopeless.
Then these guys come along. And they do what shysters have always done to vulnerable people. They exploit them for their town gain under the guise of helping them. They act like they have it all figured out and make this big confusing world seem so utterly simple. It's a tactic that's been used by despots and cult leader for millennia. And frankly, it's no surprise these types of guys are so popular right now given the position that many young men (rightly or wrongly) feel they are in right now.
So the real question then becomes not why are these toxic men so popular but rather why so many men feel they're the only ones who have the answers. Or put another way, why do so many men feel directionless and why are there so few alternatives for finding that direction? The sad truth is that until more men find a better space to grow in and explore, they'll continue to gravitate to these hyper-masculine caricatures who at the very least pretend to understand what they're feeling.
I agree. Today men think that providing for a family means primarily being a financial wage slave. In reality fathers are needed in the home to model for their sons what it means to be responsible adults.
Defining appropriate masculinity is confining and counter-productive. Sure ... some behaviors (misogyny, violence, excessive anger) are inherently toxic, but "defining" how anyone should express their feelings becomes problematic and men rightfully rebel from these one-size-fit-all archetypes that stifle our uniqueness as individuals.
Violence, mental health issues, and weaponized incompetence are not uniqueness. Just like with literally everything else in society, there needs to be standards for acceptable and unacceptable behavior for every community. Unacceptable behavior is not men's uniqueness and it's harmful to men to imply it is. Telling each other what you need to look like, how you need to dress, etc. is definitely stifling however. If you can get your "man card" taken for wearing a skirt, then you're perpetuating the idea that masculinity is conditional. That you are not born a man, you have to kill parts of yourself to become one and to "maintain" masculinity. Those things seem designed to create a culture of peer-policing which is unhealthy af. You then can't feel safe with each other. Standards for behavior and gender policing are markedly different. The need for the word toxic masculinity needs to exist SO that masculinity itself isn't what's labelled as toxic. That makes it clear you can absolutely be a healthy masculine person.
I got the feeling it has become more during the pandemic. If you can't pay the bills anymore, you become crazy.
Add women realising they do all the work, and you have the perfect storm
Everyone went crazy during the pandemic. How else can people go from "stay in, you're killing grandma!" To "we need to march because racism is the real disease" in like 12 hours?
People lost their minds
@@SlayerNinaFriki men do more work than women
@@fate8007 Not inside the house. There are several studies about work outside and how women also take the load of the house and emotional chores (and some men tasks, like being their agendas and secretaries)
No they don’t. In the US it’s both partners work but it’s still on the woman to take care of the home and children. Women don’t want to be overworked and men can’t afford to provide so women are just deciding to be single and not have children.
why are women going for toxic men ... they are enabling such behavior
You think Ned opening up the Try Guys to litigation and them following up by removing him from the company and then from future releases because his transgressions literally go against everything that would be 'on brand' for the Try Guys was an overcorrection?
I keep wondering why I watch The Take because you always managed to step too far and get too petty in your analysis, which then hurts the message. The Take, even if it's minor - you're still part of the problem.
The Take used to be really on point when it came to not crossing the line. But lately, that has not been the case. I wonder if they've lost some of their better writers?
They even showed the joker as like "this is toxic masculinity" where in the movie, I thought, they made it clear he was severely mentally ill and needed help.
@@shitty80smovielover the minute they started putting out shorter videos more frequently (which started a few months ago I believe), the writing and writing quality has felt immediately and significantly different.
@@shitty80smovielover it doesn't help that most of their videos are half the length they used to be.
Good point. That was real intellectual laziness
Wow, this is SO dishonest. Literally disgusting.
Masculinity isn’t inherently toxic, and I think that feeding young boys and men that rhetoric is incredibly harmful in their psychological development as human beings and productive members of society. We should encourage and demonstrate to them a strong moral compass and to treat people w/ kindness, fairness, and respect/dignity. More importantly: Stop using celebrities, entertainers, TV, and movies as a framework for what good and bad masculinity is and isn't. I get that that's the point of this channel, but, the aformentioned are works of fiction conjured up by screenplay writers and not entirely founded in what’s real.
The video never says masculinity is inherently toxic. Being toxic through the power of being a man is what toxic masculinity is. The only way to let boys grow up into good, kind and strong people is to critique real and fictional bad examples. Also wtf do you want them to analyze then? It’s a media analysis channel, and also Media INFLUENCES reality. They also do use statistics literally halfway through the video they cite a study)
When somebody says that there is no such thing as toxic masculinity it says a lot about them. They most likely buy into it.
I don't know if that line if thinking holds up. Is it true for women who say toxic feminity isn't real? Or you can do the same thing with the races .
@@Aaron-kj8dv it is true for women. if a woman says she does not know of any toxic woman who is a misandrist, then she is lying. they are way less common than raging misogynists, but they do exist. and why would she lie about it? to excuse it, and maybe even to excuse herself.
toxic masculinity does not exist. Toxic men exist
@@fate8007 if there are toxic men, then there is toxic masculinity. those are not men who happen to be toxic, those are men who behave in a toxic way due to their beliefe in male supremacy.
@@marykay7878 those men who believe men are superior to women aren't masculine. So it can't be toxic masculinity
I think this is an issue also in other visual medium, like Anime/Manga. Characters like Sasuke in Naruto have large followings even though they have a lot toxic traits, and yes, while that is supposed to be something they overcome. It is never something that is criticize or address in the actual anime by the other characters.
There's so many issues with the animanga community and various shows that your post is only scratching the tip of the iceberg. Even characters that are unmistakably badass in regular masculine ways(Guts, Kenshiro, Jonathan Joestar, Sugimoto, Tanjiro, Luffy, etc.) get reduced to just those traits. The fact that many are kind and compassionate as well as openly showing of various softer emotions(laughter, crying due to grief or sadness, and general emotional vulnerability) gets barely acknowledged if at all. This also ties into the idea that a "real man" can't be or isn't supposed to be soft or emotional or can't be.
@@doomrider7 And the sexualization of teenagers and it's normalized.
@@laylamorrison9596
It's fine to discuss topics of sex and sexuality and some cases of ecchi are okay...but most aren't and it veers into some gross creepy shit. Even ignoring that, it veers into a lot of expectations that aren't how relationships work.
I feel like you can make a whole essay on what Tommy Shelby from Peaky Blinders has headlined this imparticular. This movement has basically made him the mascot.
And nobody talks about this. People seriously try to emulate that character who is very clearly self destructive and who hates himself because he’s played by cillian Murphy and he wears nice suits and gets cool background music accompanying him.
tommy shelby is wonderful though
@@fate8007 No argument there. The problem, in my opinion, is the character is not understood as he is intended to be. The writers do not intend, at least I interpret it so, for him to be emulated. He’s supposed to be tragic, a man who cannot find peace and love and happiness, because of what a life of fighting has done to him. This character has been taken and made a symbol of toxic masculinity, of making the woman who left you play for it by becoming successful and soulless. It’s sad that the point, I think, has been entirely missed.
@@ajustice I got my dad into Peaky Blinders and I kinda regret it because he is very guilty of this and very unaware of it. I do think that the framing is meant to be murky on purpose, a mask of sorts, but it’s unfortunate most viewers take it as text without understanding the subtext.
Oh noooo that's not good 😭
I actually don’t know if I agree with the take. It’s easier to write a man in as a character who is just evil and toxic on his own accord and use the umbrella term “toxic male“. A villain drives conflict in a story. That’s how it’s always been. But most of the characters listed in these examples are not toxic to strictly feminine achievement. They just seem to be evil written characters who just happen to have a penis. Nuanced, then how this is being framed in that we’ve always had a thing for evil characters were they the men women are everything in between, and just to label “toxic male” on a male character just because it fits the narrative of what this piece is trying to do I think it’s quite disingenuous.
Women complain about “toxic masculinity” yet enforce it in men and boys. We start as girls separating the alpha males from the “quiet, weird, awkward types”. We then praise the most alpha and masculine and criticize shy boys and men and call them creeps and incels. The word incel alone should be considered a sexist male slur. By using incel as a slur you are saying that all that matters is a man’s sexual prowess, and that his sex life is what makes him a man. If we can’t slut shame women for how many people they have sex with, then why can we criticize men if they aren’t having sex? We all chase after masculinity and deem any traits that aren’t useful to us as “feminine” or “SUS” one example would be MOST women (not all) will not date a bisexual man. Why? Because we view sexual fluidity in men as less then and view it as a feminine trait for a man to like another man. We enforce this same masculine standard in our love lives and overlook kind and gentle men while we all chase the alpha men who will treat us badly. We call any minor criticism of the female sex “misogyny”, while being OPENLY sexist and misandrist against males. We say we want equality (which we have) but we don’t. If world war 3 started tomorrow you’d never see women rushing to sign up for the war like men do. We would all suddenly want to be back in the kitchen! 😂 Women have changed from being traditionally feminine to becoming more masculine, while demanding men stay the same masculine creatures they always were because it appease us. I’ve literally had a guy friend tell me women have told him he is “too nice” and “your voice isn’t deep enough” 🤦🏻♀️ time we take actual equal accountability ladies!
Why some women would complain if a guy its too nice? Wtf Many women like bisexual men or men with femenine traits also. But anyway, both are the problem in this, men & women.
When men start a war, they deserve to die in it
I truly wish that these conversations centered compassion for the very real people that are struggling in the modern day
Healthy masculinity is supposed to act as the more desirable counterpart to Toxic masculinity but it too is, all too often, depicted as emasculating and deserving of ridicule. So when you have something that isn't working despite public outcry telling you that it should, to a certain extent, it makes sense that so many men would get frustrated and revert back to the Toxic masculinity which has arguably worked for generations before them.
Now that isn't a defense of toxic masculinity or extremism but an attempt at raising a question that many men in society are struggling to find themselves without hurting others and still find the love that they feel that they need and the vast majority it seems have absolutely no way of doing that. Looking at it in that way, I think it's understandable that so many of them fall into despair
I think one of the contributing factors to the problem is the way we tend to connect bad behavior with masculinity, implying (unintentionally) that a "good" person is less of a man.
Imagine if we applied the same thing to toxic behaviors widely considered "feminine," such as spreading gossip, throwing shade, judging people on their fashion sense, or self-toxic behaviors such as anorexia. Imagine trying to discourage these behaviors, and a backlash responding with "you're trying to turn women into men." Almost certainly, it would result in an increase in these types of toxic behaviors.
This comparison doesn't work. Things like spreading gossip and throwing shade aren't things that women claim for themselves as desirable traits. They're part of misogynistic stereotypes about women, ie that all women are bitchy and shallow. A lot of "masculine" traits and behaviors like being aggressive, demeaning women, not being sensitive, etc. ARE things that men themselves have historically promoted as positive traits and important to their identities. It's why "masculinity" is now being criticized.
You know for centuries gossip was considered a sin, right? You know women still get slut shamed and victim blamed, right? Femininity has always been under attack.
You made great point
As a woman I use to “fall” for these archetypes but we can also do our own work, pour love acceptance into our own being, get to know ourselves. Then when you encounter this, in screen or real life that pull will be gone. For the women out there, attraction to the toxicity is a measure and signal to our own wounds.
What makes masculinity toxic though? There’s no measurable standard for it so it’s only based on personal opinion…
IMO greatest cost to toxic men, is that you'll never truly be known by those around you. The toxic masculinity front is impermeable to anything that resembles true intimacy, which is essential to every human being.
Why are we talking positively about Brad Pitt in any shape way or form tho he’s an abVser
THANK YOU!
Like no he shouldn’t be roasted for wearing a skirt, (allegedly) terrorizing his ex wife and children however puts him firmly in toxic masculinity territory.
brad pitt is not an abuser
@AA BB Angelina Jolie came forward with evidence that he physically abused her and one of their sons, it was the inciting incident leading to their divorce.
It's been swept under the rug more or less. From what I understand he was dealing with alcohol issues at the time but a lot of people have chosen just to ignore it or blame her due to her background.
When an assertive active male is placed beside a passive unwilling to state a want male, women will prefer assertive. The feminist male is misrepresented as weak and incapable. There is a middle ground-the guy who will listen and change a tire.
I'd argue that there is a huge difference between real and fictional toxic guys and they kind of should be discussed separately. Fictional ones are safe and fun to play around with - and they often make for more interesting stories - while there's a reason the manosphere pickup-artist shitskittles are very much not successful at getting women in real life. Another reason why the toxic masculine fictional dudes are so popular is that they're usually hot while the good guys often just plain aren't. But fictional good guys who are also good-looking and confident quickly grow a following too - Kotallo from Horizon: Forbidden West is a prominent (even non-white and disabled!) example who took the fangirls by storm.
Episode 3 of The Last of Us is one of the best episodes of television I have ever seen.
While talking about it, it’s really unfair to forget that the most “bad toxic guys” internet falls in love with are directly depending on the actors charisma and their previous roles. Most of them were already introduced to public through their earlier roles as good guys or in the to shows that makes the targeted audience feels nostalgic. You can not cast previous Doctor Whos and expect people not to fall in love with Daemon or Killgrave. Alone seeing those actors on screen will bring memories of the childhood no matter how brutal the scene is. Damon from Vampire Diaries had arguably the worst writing from all the main characters. I can’t remember any of his plotlines besides being inlove with Elena. But the character was adored thanks to Ian. And don’t forget that when the show started his very much popular character on Lost was just killed off. He was literally the only actor people were onboard with after their casting for VD was announced.
Don Draper was never internet boyfriend. I remember more people fangirling over Roger and later even Pete. Again two actors having association with early aired tv shows.
Edward was never intended to be a bad boy. It’s just a bad writing and shift in society. We call Ross from Friends toxic now. So it makes no sense to include him in the bad boy category if the audience at the point of airing did not consider him such.
I think the term "toxic" term is getting so overused that it's losing its meaning, thus facilitating the backlash. There's other words that are more specific and appropriate to describe behaviors that are wrong
Such as?
@@LilacSreya if he is physically, verbally, emotionally or economically abusive, jealous, controlling, a liar, talks behind your back, changes who he is...
To be fair...Why does everyone think Joker was about anything other than mental illness, and conditions of how we are treated? Joker was ill, as a result of toxicity. He was abused. Again and again. He had a choice. Sadly he chose to become an abuser, because our society doesn't recognize empathy or compassion. Arthur didn't have to become the Joker, the apathy of society wasn't there to show him a different way. He was crying out for help. Nobody ever really read his journal.
I don't condone killing, or other behaviors in the movie. But they were there to make a point.
He was nobody in society, but a god to the anti-social. Would we go with that?
I have been part of the system as a child and briefly as an adult. Nobody knows the cruelty of people more than the marginalized. Those without voices. But...
Arthur chose wrong. The moment he took a life. I suppose he did give over to the toxicity. But I really see him more than a conduit of toxicity than toxic. The things we didn't do yesterday can bite us in our ass. Maybe was 2nd Gen toxic? Generational trauma.
Thank goodness I got help, and I am committed to positivity.
I've never felt as validated by a film more than Joker.
Sorry for going way off topic.
Like Dave Chapelle says “ Fear doesn’t create ever lasting peace”
As long as the cheerleader type keeps swooning and weaponizing the football jock to her benefit, this will NEVER go away
It's almost like nature doesn't care about feelings
@@rodgermurphy5721 It never did. The law of nature is to survive or die
My fiancé is a teacher and she says there are a lot of 5th graders who really love Andrew Tayte.
This is depressing.
I remember reading somewhere that progress is often met with an increase in more regressive beliefs because disturbing their grasp of power makes them insecure & they desperately try to reassert it through anger & fear. So I just tell myself that if there is all this backlash, then women must be doing something right. It also helps me sleep at night knowing that I get to see strong female & nonbinary unity through my lifetime and won’t go out believing that there will never be a place for me in this world like the other women in my family did. We have a tool that other feminist movements have never had in the past: widespread unity across the globe. There is strength in numbers & we have never dissected patriarchy like we are doing rn. It is depressing af and not good enough but it brings me an ounce of peace knowing that I’ll get to experience more support for speaking out against sexism than any of our ancestors ever did, even if we are still met with the same amount of backlash from men
as ridiculous as i find the Red Pill community and manosphere in general, I can not, for the life of me, figure out how "make your bed first thing in the morning" became a radical suggestion to people who are heavily lambasted for messiness and lack of responsibility
Self-care, because men should matter to themselves, no matter how much feminist invalidation we face in the world.
The problem is we chastised the external and didn't address the internal, AGAIN. We didn't build the masculine aspect into the upper half of the chakra system in alignment with universal laws. This is all a holographic reflection of how we are collectively maintaining our spines. We live in a predominantly standing and sitting upright culture. The internal work is being done though. Perhaps the MeToo movement was a byproduct of our initially remote viewing from all perspectives and atoning for the sins of the toxic male from first person perspective. But our quick reversion back into toxic male idolatry worship is a testament to the fact that yet again we didn't acknowledge the physics involved in evolution. As more of us actively participate in evolution, that reversion will change into a transmutation of the masculine into a more realized form. Really looking forward to that, because the divine masculine is way hotter than what we have currently.
Okay let’s not group Joe Rogan in with toxic men just because out almost 2000 episodes he sometimes interviews “brofluencers” he is a loving caring father of three daughters that actually speaks out against toxic males if you actually to some of the 2000 episodes of his podcast. The dude just wants everyone to be nice to each other.
Most of these examples are not 'toxic men'. They're well-written, flawed characters. Most of them aren't glamorised by the creators. It's only a few people on the internet that glamorise such behaviors and such people.
Edit: People like Andrew Tate are NOT 'most of these examples'. But Joker is.
I think the problem is that a lot of women perpetuate the idea of the toxic male in every male, while equally assuming that women are basically perfect. In response, many men who are disillusioned with feminism are pushing back with the toxic male idea almost just because it's what will get the most provocative reaction
Edit: Further to my point, I think the term "toxic" gets thrown around so much that people seem to just use it to describe anyone they dislike which is not a valid enough use for it. I think that's why there's this backlash
Another edit: your point about the "so called being down on men and boys" is not really a fair representation of what's been going on. It's exactly because men and boys are often made to feel small and useless in our current culture that things like the toxic masculinity trends are more appealing - if you won't be accepted then you might as well be provocative
Extremely well put
how are males made to feel small and useless
@@dolldeer I'm not sure about education systems across other countries but across the US, Canada and UK, education is generally catered towards girls rather than boys. The statistics they gave in this video are useful for understanding that. Also, looking at current pop-culture, there is commonly a condescending depiction of men and boys as silly, stupid, butt-of-the-joke, or just plain useless characters who need to learn from those around them (in contrast to many perfect/overpowered women). Obviously, there are always exceptions, but modern feminism doesn't exactly do anything to make peace with the battle of the sexes
@@abispanner3957 It used to be that women wouldn't go to school, and at the time, school was made by men for men. Then when women entered school they just beat the boys in terms of grades. So it doesn't really prove that school was made for girls.
Personally, my intuition is just that boys tend to defy authority more and are more hyperactive, while girls are more calm and obedient, which leads to better grades. From my own experience, boys tended to miss school more, take more drugs, play more video games which would all get in the ways of study. It could also be the way they get parented that leads to lower grades, maybe people are more strict on girls. In my school I was in a class full of girls because I was in art, and the other class was a sport class which was full of boys. It was well known that classes with more girls in it were easier to teach to because girls were more obedient. I would actually argue that it's toxic masculinity that keeps boys from having better grades. Also there's the fact that women mature faster physically than boys, which means the boys will be small and frail while the girls are already fully formed, which will make boys feel insecure because they biologically take more time to mature.
I also saw a study that shows that girls had better grades in school that are girls-only, while boys had lower grades in schools that were boys-only. When girls were mixed with boys, the girls had lower grades and the boys had higher grades. So for a girl it's better to be in a girls-only school but for boys it's better to mix them with girls. I think that disproves that school favors girls.
"depiction of men and boys as silly, stupid, butt-of-the-joke, or just plain useless characters who need to learn from those around them (in contrast to many perfect/overpowered women)" I think that's a selection bias. You probably refer to comedy shows that tend to depict men as idiots and women as exasperated by men, but you forget ALL THE OTHER MOVIES, like Avengers, Star Wars, Lord of the rings, all the BIG franchise that everyone watches, all the main characters are strong,, couurageous male lead, far from being weak, meak and silly, while women are often portrayed as "side chicks" who do literally nothing. When there's a main female lead it's called "progressist".
@@thisisntallowed9560 we'll have to agree to disagree since we seem to be looking at different evidence. But in terms of using the past to justify putting men down doesn't help anyone. And regarding the movies - star wars is 1980s (and i find that almost every 80s movie has bad characters - terrible role models for men and badly written female characters, though at least Leah stands up for herself somewhat). Lord of the Rings is early 2000s (not current culture) and Avengers is a mix of female and male characters but plenty of overpowered females (which makes them less relatable). Also, when we consider recent movies/TV shows of the same franchises - all of them have overpowered female characters and almost all of them have stupid men (Rings of Power, Thor Love/Thunder, almost all the new star wars properties, the list goes on). I have no problems with female leads or male leads, I just want a fair balance where characters a relatable rather than this 'revenge' mentality that tries to put men down just because women were looked down on in the past
I am sorry, but how is the toxic male not gonna rise if women were thirsting badly for a character such as Daemon.....
Daemon is a bad person, But Otto, Criston Cole and Larys are even worse examples of Toxic male characters.
As career women, entrepreneurs, or even just a woman that's held a job in your life, I am DISGUSTED that you implied the Try Guys were over-reacting to the abuse of power that threatened their business and livlihood.
They reacted the way every other business SHOULD react to a workplace 'romance' of such unequal power.
hey, in twilight both Jacob AND Edward were toxic
Jacob was worse because he kissed Bella against her will tho.
@@lookitskatiex yeah, and that whole imprinting thing throughout the book and with renesme.
About 90 percent of the characters in the series toxic to their cores.
@@darkstorm0433 except Charlie. i will defend that man!
@@annaissodone Yeah, the parents, large in part, are the only normal functioning people within that world.
The answer to toxic masculinity is gay men and heterosexual men skirts?😂😂 This is why men turn to Andrew Tate..whoever scripted this video lost the plot
I think we can all agree that Ted Lasso is a shining example of masculinity that we all need now
Yes!
Jordan Peterson's message is more about personal responsibility than anything else. It's more like "Get your sh*t together before you try and change the world" which is pretty good advice for anyone.
What about his multiple takes on women that just point out how misogynistic he is ?
@@fairuzz5554 What takes? He's often strawmanned
Also him saying the most misogynistic stuff ever And Dude doesn't practices what he preaches 😔
@@fairuzz5554it is
The dude eating the testicle at the end of this smart ass video sent me hahaha very important topic, I see the struggles in my little brothers and I am trying to uplift them as encourage them to show their emotions, my mom does it too and its a beautiful thing how theyve grown and became better men by opening up to us. Positive masculity is a beautiful thing
Good job setting them up for failure in life to virtue signal about it. Here's your cookie.
@@Rage-_-Quit failure? Haha they both got great girlfriends, know what career path they want to follow. Have great relationship with their family and friends and got no addictions. They are winning life surrounded by love!Hope you find the same.
Marlon Brando was shocked at the audience reaction to Stanley Kowalski. A lot of actors were surprised at the audiences loving characters who were supposed to be repulsive assholes. It seems like audiences are defective. Why do audiences emulate jerks and completely miss the point of the movie as if it was a "nice guy"?
Audiences like what they like, they don't give two shits about art, progress or improving society
Deep down society abhors weakness
One of my favorite male role models as a dad is Bandit from Bluey. No joke.
100%
I think that these “new toxic masculinity” is successful in media because the characters are more rounded people, better written, more complex. And these traits are not exclusively for “bad boys”. Sadly the “new good guys” (less traditionally masculine, queer, insert new trope here) have no flaws or not relatable mistakes, they are just good for goods sake and for me that’s not believable and make them less interesting and hard to truly root for. And again before some one crucifies me, “good guys” can also be interesting if they’re well written.
I don’t think Edward is at the level of any of these other guys. At least he cares about consent and tries to overcome his monstrous nature. That’s why Christian Grey is so terrible. He’s Edward if he had no capacity to improve himself.
If I remember correctly, he used to watch her sleep before she knew about it. Plus, he had sex with a human, knowing full well that if he lost control, he could kill her. He's, I don't know, a hundred years old? And she is a teenager. He doesn't care for consent, the thing is that he is so controlling and manipulative (and pretty) that people forget how much he disregards Bella's wellfare.
@@tlf2818
1) yeah IRL that's super creepy, but considering that all Bella is concerned about is wether or not he heard her talk in her sleep it's also a useless argument. It's hard to feel uncomfortable with something that the point-of-view character has absolutely no problem with. Or even considers.
2) He didn't want to have sex with her for exactly that reason. Bella more or less pressures him into it because SHE is the thirsty one. He has the most PG behavior (sexuality wise).
In fact, sex isn't even mentioned until Bella voices her desire for it somewhere in the third book.
3)The whole "but he is so old" is stupid. If he actually *acted* like he was that old it would be different but he is very clearly supposed to be a teen.
Its the same with anime. Just because you tell me that that 12 yo looking girl is thousand years old doesn't mean the main character can just lust after her without me thinking he is a problematic pedo.
The people creating those characters often dont get what being that old would actually do with a person. They are not actually writing ancient people.
4) Yeah, he is controling. By far not as bad as Christian but that's a rather low bar to clear, I suppose.
The only thing that makes it a little better is that most of these instances happen when Bella very obviously wants to martyr herself. She honestly has the self-preservation of a lemming.
5) Where does he not take consent seriously? I have never heard that argument before and am wondering how it came up?
I agree and I also didn't like how they mentioned Edward in the sense that in a love triangle they always chose the toxic one. I'd say Jacob is way more toxic and as he actually assaults Bella and kisses her without her consent and is not sorry.
@@ForeverRememberable I think the problem is that he (Jacob) started out as the more acceptable choice (yknow, the "funny-guy" who you can laugh with. The one who has seen you at your worst and still sticks by you) and then suddenly took a nosedive to sexual harasser and nice-guy™.
So by the point he had turned bad people didn't want to aknowledge the sudden change.
Edit: yeah, that kiss scene was where any compassion for both him and Charlie completely died for me.
@@lexa2310 yeah I see exactly what you mean. Personally I was never a fan of Jacob and once he shifted the first time he became a completely unlikeable person but I believe by that time Stephanie Meyer was already in love with Jacob and since we're reading it through Bella's eyes it doesn't come across like Jacob is bad to a lot of people. I wasn't a fan of Jacob the moment Bella chose Edward and Jacob couldn't respect that, even at the end of New Moon he's like that so by the time he kissed Bella was I already disgusted with him and had no sympathy for him. I am really disappointed in how Stephanie Meyer wrote Charlie's reaction though because even though he hates Edward and like Jacob it just doesn't seem in character for him to react that way. I love Charlie but that ruined book Charlie for me, movie Charlie is better than book Charlie though.
Honestly, you all need to stop putting Jordan Peterson in the same boat as Andrew Tate etc. Have you actually listened to a lecture of his? I'm definitely not his target audience and obviously there are things I as a queer woman would phrase differently and disagree with but the way he reaches men of a certain group and talks them off the right extremist ledge? He encourages them towards therapy, actually processing their emotions, confronting them with their own biases and away from pornography, agression and competitive thinking-it's actually quite impressive. He should definitely not be seen as the be all, end all of a man's journey but he is such a good influence on guys who would otherwise be drawn towards the Andrew Tates of the world or even worse right extremist and extremely sexist groups. So maybe let's not put them all in the same boat?
If the goal is to make sure overall we have less toxic masculinity in the world maybe let's try to not aliante people who are doing just that. We need to give people the space to turn around and move towards a healthier attitude.
Ok, but Albie was toxic in his own way, also dangerous.
Ashitaka from princess Mononoke, Corto Maltese and several main characters from Clint Eastwoods movies are good examples of men who are brave and even strong but that believe in doing whats right and in humanity above anything else. Clint Eastwoods movies stand out in particular for how well they deconstruct toxic masculinity, and promote values like honor and kindness instead. A video about them would be interesting
2 things: Penn Badgley is a good actor and has a magnetic presence.
I do not want to be kidnapped k bye
Getting in touch with emotions -Yes
Caring for those I love
-Yes
Wearing a skirt to show sensitivity
-No
Wearing makeup and mascara
-Hell No bullshit
Just because one is sensitive and caring doesn't mean their weak I.e Keanu Reeves,Jahseh Onfroy(XXXTentacion) Jordan Peterson and Henry Cavill those are my prime examples of the future of masculinity
yepp
Disappointed the Take did not examine Everything, Everywhere, All At Once and how the Waymon character is a subversion of the Hollywood weak beta male archetype. See the Pop Culture Detective 's "Everyone Everywhere Needs Waymond Wang".
As a man. It's so frustrating that the world is on my shoulders and everyone expects me to "deal with it"
This is one of my top 10 favorite channels on TH-cam. I'm not on Twitter I'm barely ever on Facebook or Instagram or any other social media. Go through the channel I have been learning about how other people feel about media, fictional characters real real people. I've been continually shocked at how much people go out of their way to defend the ugly parts and ugly people in life. Because of my lack of social media presence if it really wasn't for channels like this I would have no idea what was going on in the Zeitgeist of today. Thank you for all the help you have you've given me and being able to keep up with what's going on with others.
Agreed. I dont have notifications for any other channel except this one. They really do amazing videos 👍🏼
Girls love this shit.
Dont listen too what they say watch what they do and who they choose and youll see if you aint toxic you aint winning
Pick the right girl and you'll see she hates toxicity
Ezra Miller should be up there, doesn't matter if men are non binary, trans, bi, gay, asexual, toxic masculinity is still toxic masculinity regardless of the gender fluid
trans women are just toxic men
The LGBTQ is known for having a lot of domestic violence but nobody talks about it.
While I agree with the thesis of this video, some of the clips are taken out of context, weakening the video. For example, the dude talking about taking a pill on the Joe Rogan show is Paul Stamets is a mycologist, and they are talking about using different mushrooms as nutritional supplements. The video has nothing to do with the reactionary male movement, even though some of Rogan's guest do.
They also went after Paul Saladino. He’s literally just a doctor that promotes the carnivore diet just like the liver king. These guys don’t belong
Every action creates an equal and opposite reaction. And so on. And so on...
1. I wonder how exactly the Joker promotes the ideal of toxic male when it portrays a ruined man with mental health issues who never got help due to the failed society (the movie is very white and avoids raising any race-related questions that should have been raised, but otherwise it is not a glorification of toxic behavior or whatsnot).
2. I think that mixing together some sexy fictional bad boys and literal criminals was not the best idea. I understand that the idea was to show the cultural shift and the influence of fiction on real life, but it felt inconsiderate. Also, some points feel really surface level.
3. I loved and watched your channel for a long time, but recent videos seem to lack nuance and depth. Idk what changed, but you just seem to translate the most loud Twitter/TikTok takes without thorough analysis.
Theyre rhetoric has always been there its only now its fully out in the surface
When we stopped canceling men for serious things like rape, misogyny in the workplace, and physical abuse and started calling them out for bad dates and looking at girls at the gym we destroyed any credibility the movement had.
Whether you intended to or not, your comment planted another seed of doubt for victims. That’s like saying Amber Heard destroys all credibility for female victims of abuse. Statistically, there is evidence indicating these crimes happen on a disproportionate level, with males being the usual perpetrator. The majority of violent/sexual crimes in the United States alone are perpetrated by males on average higher than vice versa. That is a fact. How does a minority % of women falsely accusing *or* perpetrating abuse, or even being dramatic greatly outweigh the credibility of hundreds of thousands of other victims? Even false accusations on average are dismissed in court, despite men hyping it up to be a regular occurrence. Before cancel culture, we had the Me Too Movement. But who exactly took that movement seriously besides feminist? Notice how men and conservative women immediately shut them down and accused them of lying for attention. A movement for victims will always be dismissed in a patriarchal world. After all, it’s just a movement full of bitter, lying whores with an agenda to destroy an innocent man’s reputation, right?
THIS
Thank you! Women literally destroyed this movement and instead of trying to improve it, they just yell at people for not wanting to be an “ally"
Yes just blame women. Has nothing to do with men and their fragile egos going around literally raping and murdering women beyond measure and failing to even recognize or penalize these crimes…🙄
Elliot Alderson, Marty Deeks, Ryuuchi Kashima and Kim Do-Ki are the new kind of men who completely broke the toxic patriarchy in their series. They may seem like the troubled wounded bad boy but are more sensitive, feminine, kind, driven and independent men who aren't afraid to be vulnerable (Deeks is more like the Manic Pixie Dream Guy) and are capable of fixing themselves and standing up for themselves and others. Even Daniel's iteration of James Bond joined the group of them.
I really feel like this kind of video serves to be more divisive than anything else, whilst I recognise that shit people exist no matter what, the term ‘toxic male’ (or female for that matter) is so over played and click baity that it only serves to piss off those that are maligned with it, or galvanise those that already hate the protagonists. It seems like these people exist or become popular in spite of being called out by their equally opposite and opposing gender based commentators, and this is just so common and regular now that it is freaking boring. It’s not that I dream of a fictional lala land where it’s all rainbows and puppy dogs and the sexes all get along without a hint of maleficence, but come on, this is just so stupid now.
the only people that can get cancelled are people that are dependent on industries for income. No one really gets cancelled. only fired. but you cant fire an idea.
Why do people keep using Jordan Peterson as an example of toxic males his literal thing is to help guys grow up there is a literal a quote of him saying that if girls keep rejecting you their not the problem
Films often portray these hyper masculine, cool guy tropes in unrealistic ways, most often having major character development and opening up at the end/changing. That barely exists in real life. It's a fantasy.
Maybe I'm not looking to the right direction but I've never heard professor Jordan Peterson support toxic ideas for men, probably because I've been following him only superficially for the past years.I don't know but I see how he refers to his daughter and spouse always with respect and encourages men to better themselves.
There's a lot of content of him saying messed up stuff, however they make sure to push the more normal stuff and save the icky stuff to once you already trust him. That's not on you, however I would caution anyone to make sure you're familiar with all the views of any pundits or influencers before stating you're a fan of them and their points. Their agendas are counting on everyone not doing that.
Most of what people will point to regarding him being 'toxic' is just Dr. Jordan Peterson stating statistical facts. And facts about human psychology and behavior that have been scrutinized and analyzed for decades before being stated as such and not just 'his opinion' like they would have you believe. They are reasonable arguments but the 'woke' culture doesn't exactly respond well to reason and logic and I'm sure you can imagine why. Most people that google something like 'why jordan peterson bad?' end up staying and becoming fans because he is one of the few prominent figures actually making sense out here. He is a voice of reason and people can't stand it. It's kinda funny tbh.
He comes off really emotionally immature on twitter all the time.
@@Chethan_Udayashankar Are you basing this on short Tweets? If you want a better judge of character, he's got thousands of hours of free, long-form conversation you can watch online. That way you're not just reducing him to 'comes off really emotionally immature on twitter' and actually have a better understanding of him before providing others an incomplete idea you got off Twitter.
@@maddscientist82 of course he’s going to come off better in a professional setting. What you see on twitter is a more unfiltered view of him. I also used to watch a bunch of his stuff but then started to see him for what he really is. A grifter trying to make money like every other TH-cam personality. Debating woke college kids with blue hair to get you angry and click on more of his videos. Read books/articles from someone who’s fame didn’t come from youtube. You’ll be smarter and less emotionally manipulated.
I dont think Jughead Jones from Riverdale is a toxic male, that scene of the voicemail is a bad moment indeed but it is a exception.
Neither is the Joker. It's like the Take is asking not to be taken seriously!