This is such an honest, objective and unbiased assessment. As a Christian who spends almost all my free time learning Jewish history and sources, this is the most balanced and accurate talk I’ve heard on this issue.
Yes, it is truly refreshing when a historian approaches their work and understands that people are complicated and contradictory. The truth is so much more interesting than a rigid, binary narrative. She is wonderful.
He Goes Before Us -- I AM -- Always Been. Tsion/Yashrael IS a purpose, a practice, and a place; Intentional behavior accordingly unTO RighteousNess, Justice, and SetApart: ...sWORD Spirit and Truth withIN one. (echad) Yahu'Sha Messiah answered, "Thou sayest that I Am a king: ...To (this) end was I born, and for (this) cause came I inTO the world, that I should bear witness unTO the truth. Every (one) that IS of the truth heareth My voice." (Abide, TOdo) Kingdom CitizenShip and MindSet. Followers must (die) of self, repent daily, and know the 'good shepherd'. (Kingdom MindSet) Praise and thanks TO the Most High Ab Yahu'Ah, and all esteem TO His anointed Hebrew Son Yahu'Sha Messiah, our King, High Priest, and Intercessor unTO Life, Love, Logic, and Loyalty everlasting, for believers that "Hear Ye Him!" sWORD Spirit and Truth -- Morning by Morning!
A highly informative half hour. It was great to have a wise-head explain the fluidity of and what might be called the dialectic of the early centuries of the Common Era. Thank you.
Jewish history is really fascinating isnt it? Im not a believer at all but these last couple years I cant get enough of Jewish history. What an amazing story this group of people have lived!
My Friend. I happen to disagree and I've just entered my comment in the publick section. I don't want to repeat my argument here but I I'd love to hear your response to it. Kind regards.
Start from the same root nation with many perspective and aspects below the HIStory in facts and timeline running linear. Stay study and explore to enrich ours own faith each other for life more put lot respect and tolerance 🙏 . Thank you. Theo R.
But did she answer the basic question? Or is she saying it's unknown? But there has to be some point or event where the Christian Jews no longer identified as Jews. Surely before the time of Constantine.
Not really. Isolated among ignorance she is Einstein. What she is discussing is nothing really new but rather only new to those minds isolated by faith structures from it. Since the trail blaze of men like Robert Eisenman the conversation concerning the quest for the historisity of Jesus and the 1st century movements has been flourishing under a truckload of New rougue scholars. People are simply becoming more and more informed and introduced to cross referencing and actual historical rigors. Its nice to be positive but lets not lionize everyone who happens to know something we havent read ourselves, even if she is pretty hot. lol. After all let us not ignore the fact that in the concluding analyses it can be said that the Beautiful Prof demonstrated what , upon completion of the Historical Christianity journey almost always reveals. A GENUINE UNCERTAINTY. It may be time to recognise that the misleading history that was being formed with ten foot poles in the turbulance of the 1st century may have been formed literally in a way so as to bury the very bread comes and trail we struggle with today. The type of annoying, weasely, deceptive brilliance some of us would like to strangle with our bare hands.lol.
Thank you so much for this conversation. It always amazes me that anyone can hold so firmly to their religious commitments as to ignore the development and continuum of theological ideas and thought.
As an Eastern Orthodox Christian with deep interest and study of the history and development of Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism, I must say this is by far the most objective and (in my opinion) accurate depiction of how family parted ways. Sort of. I am an ingrafted wild olive shoot who has deep love for my distant brethren.
Christianity and judaism were never together. Christianity is the Catholic religion and it was established by Christ upon the new covenant. Judaism is an antichrist religion based on the talmud that developed after 70 AD when the Roman army destroyed the temple and the jewish priesthood. The original jewish religion was the law of Moses, which was abolished by Christ. It was not called judaism. The jews who converted to Christ became Catholics. The jews who rejected Christ became enemies and persecutors of the Catholic Church.
Prof Siegal is such a good speaker. I loved listening to what she had to say as well as watching such an intelligent person express herself so clearly and personally. Thank you very much Prof Siegal.
I'm a seminarian studying to become a Roman Catholic priest and I must say I'm really impressed by the professor's knowledge also about the church fathers. The thesis about the"sister religions" is very appealing and it really illuminates my understanding of the reforms made of the Christian sacrificial memorial meal, the mass, in the 60ies where "liturgical experts" claimed to be closer to the primitive church by copying (table) prayers from modern rabbinic Judaism (mother daughter perspective) which I'm not convinced by. Coming back to the church fathers I'd find it interesting to see a comparison between their quotes of Scripture and the Septuagint and the Massoretic text. Thanks for a nuanced, respectful conversation even though it was strong and "inaudible for pious ears" to hear about the claim about the Blessed Virgin being maculated by a Roman soldier. I'm not sure non Catholics will understand how blasphemous such a "joke on words" would have sounded for christians at that time. But it just proves your point even more concerning the indirect "hidden" mockery by the rabbi's of that time.
I heard Professor Bar-Asher Siegal give a talk on the Talmud in a synagogue in the East Village a couple of years ago. She was totally fascinating, a brilliant speaker, one who pulls her entire audience into her material and everything she has learned. She had just taught at Yale Divinity School for a year, and I bet they adored her. She is open-minded and without prejudice and irresistible. She makes scholarship sexy! Kedem is a bright figure, too.
hi there.hola hooray hey. here we go jo the truth coming up,actually turah&bible were from god but they had been corrupted afterwards as a result god sent down quran upon prophet muhammed&god said i`ll preserved the quran thereby god had fulfilled his promise ,let me show u friendly&honestly the truth,okee dokee.shedding the light on christianity to know the truth first of all there is no original bible the 4 main bible are contradicted to each other yet there is 1 quran but who is the writer of bible the answer is paul the jewish who hates jesus let us discuss about the significant event which is crucifixion why does your would claimed god left his only son to crucify without any sin he had committed the disaster reached its uttermost when u found bible said on the tongue of jesus my god my god why do u forsaken me means jesus has never crucified willingly have u an idea why do they `ve crucified jesus because it`s a penalty of an impure &particularly crucifixion because dindn`t touched the earth make it an impured that what paul said jesus gets impure for the sake of us &see the authentic god what does said in quran chapter 3 verse 55 by the name of god the most gracious&most merciful , O Jesus, I will take you and raise you up to me, and had purified you from those who disbelieve, and He will place those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection, then to Me is your return, so I will judge between you regarding that in which you differed,the authentic god rose jesus to the sky before they kill him in addition he had purified him from a false accusation of he was an impure . quran verse is comply with the bible itself :So they lifted up stones to stone him. But Jesus did and went out of the temple, passing through them." ( John 8:59 ),let alone of many verses in the bible incites to violence thus u found the largest massacres had happened in history the ww1&2 christian countries against christian countries 100 millions had been killed not to mention the sex stories in the bible nay u never found a single sex word in quran,don`t take it in personal just i clarify u the plain truth,bible said woman when she during the menstruation she gets impure &any thing she would touched it will be impure &should stay at her room till had done of it don`t see that an insulting to woman &how does the claimed god in bible said so he demeans& underrates his own creatures, yet islam honored the woman &she has a complete chapter its name women show us her rights,let us look at modern medicine which refutes the bible, ovulalation happens every 28 days from overy next month from other ovary when fertilization fails to happen mestrual bleading happens it always stops when a female gets pregnant ,menstrual cycle ovulation the female genital system consists of one uterus to overuse vagine& externat genital organs ,,the blood during menstruation could cause diseases to spread and that’s why does a woman during her menstruation needed to isolate so the blood would not be passed around to other people & diseases not be spread that`s what god has said in quran and they ask you about menstruation say, isolate women don't come near them untill they get purified verse 222 chapter 2,why there are priests,pastors&nuns are reverted daily to islam,yet u `ve never a muslim clergy left islam as per western media said that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world,i didn`t like to push islam onto u god said no compulsion in religion verse 256 chapter 2,figure it out then make up your mind,peace....
I may be biased because I am Catholic Christian. But when she talks about the Church Fathers, this men were Catholic. And the Catholic Church has always defined its self as the continuation of the Jewish religion. Even when one goes to Mass many things happening in it are from Old Testament practices. Very interesting interview!!
This is an amazingly insightful discussion. I wishh as a Palestinian Christian who still speaks Aramaic, that I had friends like Prof. Siegal to have these discussions with as I'm very fascinated by this particular subject.
I very much enjoyed that - and saved it to show my students! I teach a class on Art in the First Millennium, and the separation is a big deal for us! Professor Bar-Asher Siegal is a great talker! I'd love to hear her live. My college's library already has Early Christian monastic literature and the Babylonian Talmud :)
What an incredibly interesting but complex explanation and very well and honestly substantiated by Prof. Michal Bar-Asher Siegal. Very impressed... I'm a big fan of this professor. Thank you.
A most impressive analysis and account of the early history of the various forms of Judaism and Christianity - you ask searching question and provide facts and interpretation which are helpful to Jews, Christians or any others interested. The concluding remarks were a more than a model good scholarship but gave us a fresh starting point for future discussion. As a Church of England priest I have always be conscious of a debt to Judaism. I recall a visit to an art gallery in Bond St in London - I had made a mistake and entered the wrong premises. The pictures were wonderful and the aged proprietor came out and I explained my mistake which let to a half hour chat. He was Jewish but I could not understand why his surname was Green, He explained that his Polish or Lithuanian ancestors had no surnames and when they arrived in England they were given ones at random. He said he did not go to synagogue much these days as people were so contentious. He had a weekend cottage in the Cotswold Hills near Oxford and would wander up to ancient Parish church on a Saturday. There, within the prayer soaked walls he said his prayers and felt at home. Influence may not be the term to use but in the Cotswolds, a region famed for its sheep and wool, people understand the term, 'mutual grazing rights'! When taking a marriage service, I made the point that we use the term covenant and I explain its Jewish origins. After one such service, an young man came up and explained he was Jewish. He had accepted the invitation to the wedding with a heavy heart as he expected to be treated as an 'outsider' but came to thank me because he felt included. I always used the Song of Song reading for marriage services - what we share is older than history!
@@ianbrowne8871 Christians don't respect other beliefs and that what this guy is doing. Everything he's saying isn't true. You guys think it's fascinating and informative but it's all lies. So don't think you're getting any truths here
@@barbseeley9673 I find your comment confusing. I was commenting on the work and research of a female professor which forms the greater part of the post. I have not made any comment on ‘he’ whoever that is. I am not one for taking offence but to is plain to most people that all religious faiths have differences of opinion within them and that comments beginning, “All …. make sweeping generalisations which careful research usually undermines and shows their absurdity.
@@ianbrowne8871 well try and figure out if I tagged you by accident, I do that a lot. Oh no that was to you. It seems like you're trying to find similarities between Christians and Jewish people. But I may be wrong. On threads like these it's easy to loose track
This is an excellent lecture, and the Professor’s explanation of how the scholarship on the separation of Christianity from Judaism changed over time clarified for me why the scholarship seems to be disjointed.
The new testament actually condemns any boasting among gentile Christians, a boasting that would otherwise reduce the divide between Judaism and Christianity as a mere power struggle (as mentioned in the video), an attitude that might falsely echo, "…we [the gentiles] are now favored by God, not you [the Jews who rejected Christ]". At least from the perspective of Catholicism, Christianity does not negate nor replace the elect status of the Jews. The Church therefore teaches that our division is providential (then and now). Consequently, “replacement theology” (or supersessionism) is not taught by the Catholic Church. The Church has expressed this maybe half a century a go and although it was long overdue it was necessary because it's not supported biblically or theologically. However, although there were bad attitudes within the Church who previously reflected this negative perception (toward the Jews), it was never an official teaching nor were there any teachings to justify such attitudes. For some context regarding the above see Romans 11:17-24 “17 But if some of the branches were broken off [the Jews], and you, a wild olive shoot [the Gentiles], were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you [the Jews]. 19 You will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. [i.e. lest the Gentile Christians become too cocky or arrogant] 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.”
Certainly a dead branch cannot be grafted into a living tree. This is why Catholicism does not reject the elect status of the Jews relative to salvation history. For more on this, Roy Schoeman (a former Jewish atheist who "converted" to Catholicism and who still considers himself Jewish) unpacks the significance of Romans (and more) in the following talk. He basically speaks to the relationship between the Jews and Gentiles relative to Judaism and Christianity. The video is linked at the appropriate time stamp th-cam.com/video/5nwW4A0OfhM/w-d-xo.html
Glad you enjoyed it. We focus, inter alia, on a scholar’s views on theological questions, in order to better understand the history through the development of religious, by bringing the most updated academic perspective directly to our audience. Thank you for watching!
@@KEDEMChannel There is No Abrahamic covenant outside of Jesus Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew or Greek; there is neither bond nor free; there is neither male nor female in Christ For ye are all One n Christ 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abrahams's seed and heirs according to the Promise ~ Ephesians 4-5 One Lord One Faith One Baptism ~ John 8:58 Truly I tell you: Before Abraham was: I am ~
Wow. This was totally fascinating. Fantastic! I would say as a Christian that our two faiths are forever bound together. They must be, if only on the basis that we both consider the Hebrew Testament as authoritative scripture. And equally to the point, while we may disagree on the interpretation of some verses we as Christians quote - we still acknowledge that the Christian Testament relies on the Hebrew Testament for its authority as sacred text. We cannot have a Jesus or even much of the Christian Testament without the Jewish underpinnings. Anybody who actually thinks about these things must recognize that. Because of that, even today as Professor Siegal noted, while our cultures are quite different - we have theologically arrived at many of the same conclusions, if using different methods to get there. Professor Siegal really has a gift for explaining this. Kudos Professor!
I like the way it is explained that there were many different ways, not just two. It is helpful to see that one way of looking at it is that the two never separated: The Jewish Messiah started winning Jews and Gentiles over to the God of Israel once he rose from the dead. The circumcision of the heart that was prophesied by Jeremiah (4:4) began to take place among Jews and Gentiles, and of the two groups was made one people of God. There is more than one covenant in Judaism, and looked at through several covenants of the Tenak, we find Christianity assenting, and illuminating the Tenak. What happened then with Constantine was a whole different story, but that was not true of Christianity around the world, only in Europe. It is not true of the vast majority of converts to Christianity today, since the vast majority of new converts are not tied closely, if at all, to that tragic legacy some refer to as Christendom, rather than calling it Christianity. Good talk! Thank you!
The split came with the Jerusalem Council that took place in 49 or 50 CE. Paul had brought in a multitude of converts-most of them gentiles-into the movement. James, the brother of Jesus, who led the embryonic Jesus movement in Jerusalem was outraged by Paul's actions and summoned him,accompanied by Barnabas,to Jerusalem to explain himself. Peter was present as well. James held the position that gentile converts should be accepted into the movement only after accepting Judaism first. Paul,of course, totally rejected this. At the conference, Paul, somehow convinced James (and Peter) that his approach was valid and James gave way. Subject to accepting certain modest dietary restrictions (not full Kashruth), gentiles were now fully accepted. Thus (male) gentile converts did not have to undergo circumcision, sabbath observance was not required of gentiles, and Jewish holidays were irrelevant to gentiles. All that mattered was belief in Jesus. Thus, in that sense, this event marked the beginning of Christianity as a fully distinct faith. (James followers DID continue to observe some Jewish traditions but this group,usually called Ebionites, eventually died out. And the Christianity of today is Paul's version-not James'.) The Roman authorities,who persecuted Christians but not Jews, after the Great Fire of Rome in 62 CE fully understood that the 2 faiths were, by then, fully distinct -even if Prof. Bar-Asher does not.
I really enjoyed and was excited to listen to this discussion of the early years of Christian and Judaism's development and relationship with one another. Question for the Professor: Rabbinic Judaism is vastly different from Biblical Judaism in my understanding (limited as it is). Am I wrong in thinking that the complex development of Rabbinic Judaism was a reinvention of Judaism due to the 1) loss of the Second Temple in 70 AD and 2) the crushing of the Bar Kokbah revolt around 135 CE and 3) the "annoying" and "persistent" success of Messianic Judaism of the 1st century?
It's interesting that Ethiopian Jews still practice Biblical Judaism, Compared to Jews from Israel and Western countries who practice Rabbinic Judaism or Secular Judaism.
the final break between messianic and rabbinic judaism occured with Constintine, and the hijacking of "the way" by the gentiles. When the jewish hierarchy was replaced by non jews you had a new religion that allows anything to get converts namely the synthesis of many mystery religions with into a brand new religion as opposed to an offshoot of judaism. Hence rabbits and eggs on easter, trees, holly, presents, merriment on the 25th of December ( Saturnalia) .
Thank you it is great to have an understanding of both religions. We live in a time where freedom of speech is threatened especially since its purpose is to bring us more understanding. As a Christian, I see the Jewish people as our brothers because we use you Talmut as our Bible as a foundational document. Even the new testament is linked to the old testament. We believe that in the initial stage, Christ provided a way for the infidels to be saved Hence the tearing of the curtain in the temple. We should be supportive of each other in our own way.
Christianty is far too an aggressive and violent religion to be supported. It's founded on the idea that " I bring not peace but the sword ". T he christian church as corrupted the Tanach to concoct a " new Covenant " and its missionaries in Israel attempt to convert Jews to christianty through false messages and deceit. Jews for jesus is not Jewish it's a Christian fundamental cult. G'day from Australia 🇦🇺 and one for Israel 🇮🇱. :) Cheers. Best to your family .
@@redmatters9318 You obviously do not understand the reason and the context of this text you are using it in a text-proofing manner which is not a correct use of scripture. The verse is addressing the Jewish people the chosen people who were not following God's instructions and he compared their behavior worse to that of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. We are currently living in a similar world environment today. This was so bad that god send his apostles to tell them to change their behavior. And the verse I do not bring peace but the sword is indicative of the behavior of the people It means cutting the bad away from the good. Which is justified. Furthermore Jesus The student is not above the teacher. this is exactly what we have today in the world. We need to repent and tell the people To turn back to God.
@@hermanushulsen9151 You obviously do not understand. The Tanach is our bible, not the Talmud. As Jews we are aware that Christians corrupted the Tanach to concoct a " new Covenant" which largely is based on the writings of a certain Paul ( considered by many observers and some scholars to be bi- polar ) and who never met the G-suz whom you think is the messiah. As Jews ✡️ we do not believe that jesus is the messiah. The Talmud you referred to spoke of a man who was deemed a magician. The Toledot Yeshua speaks of a jesus being the son of biggus Pantera. You need to read of Rambam about our messiah please hermanus before you talk of Jews and Christians ✝️ becoming bosom buddies. The way your missionaries abuse Jews in Israel must also stop if you want to try to be mates or friends. REF to Rabbi Tovias Singers world work available on U Tube. G'day from 🇦🇺 Australia and one for Israel 🇮🇱. Best to your family. :).
@@redmatters9318 That is some Jews do not believe and some do believe in Jesus being the messiah It is a matter of faith. I never said I wanted to be your bosom buddies. I merely refer to the Jews as our brothers in Christ or God. we read from the same book You may be aggressive in your statement but it will never change my love for the Jewish people there are bad people on both sides that is the problem with humans. For me, I live every day with scripture both what I call the old and the new testament I am not trying to convert you either. It is your choice to believe in the Messiah or not.
@@hermanushulsen9151 Of course we believe in a messiah - just not yours ..and we don't read the same bible...the Tanach is different. Jews who believe in G-suz are no longer Jews...and we're not brothers in christ in any shape or form . Christianty has never been good to us. Shalom 😊. G'day Australia 🇦🇺 and Israel 🇮🇱 .am yisrael chai !
My mother, an English Christian from the East end of 1920s London grew up among Jewish refugees. She brought us up as Christians but knowing Jesus as a practising Jew.
Very interetsing and useful discussion. While scholars understand, many followers of both Christianity and Judaism don't realise how diverse both groups were in the first 2 centuries of the Common Era - diverse, and overlapping. Some Christian theologians like Margaret Barker have described how early Christianity was *deeply* immersed in themes of Second Temple Judaism, which were since extinguished in Rabinical Judaism (cf Segal 'Two Powers in Heaven' etc). If we look at Christianity and Judaism today, we see big differences. If we look at the first few centuries, not so much ...
That’s just like slowly turning up the heat when boiling a frog. Most Christians were from the Jewish background. You don’t to give them a culture shock by getting rid of the major traditions/habits. Slowly introduce changes little by little which took hundreds of years. Same thing with early Protestants getting away from Catholicism. Traditional Anglicans and Lutherans have basically kept some Catholic traditions. The modernists have totally wiped out old Protestantism.
sorry, but the dogmatic bases of Christianity are clearly present since the beginning - and the 'resemblance' with Judaism in that realm is very shallow
@@silveriorebelo2920 So you're saying that Christianity was an entirely new religion, which sprung up fully-formed in 1st century CE? Not connected or related to the Israelite religion that Jesus and the Apostles lived in? Possibly you are confusing late 2nd Temple Judaism with Rabbinical Judaism. Rabbinical Judaism emerged in the period 200-500CE; and is what most modern Jews follow, whether Askenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, etc, it's what we think of when "Judaism" is mentioned in the modern world. Christianity is quite dfferent to Rabbinical Judaism in many ways; that is true. Before the destructiion of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the forms of Jewish religion were much more diverse than they are today; many previously mainstream traditions of Judaism did not survive, except for the Pharisaical stream which eventually became Rabbinical Judaism. Jewish traditions of the late 2nd Temple period, like the Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, and popular messianic movements, all disapeared after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, and the Temple. Early Christianity is clearly related to some elements of these older, more diverse forms of Judaism; it builds on themes which were already present in 2nd Temple Jewish thinking.That's why, for example, the Jewish Bible (Tanakh) is included in the Christian Bible.
I really enjoy listening to Professor Michal Siegal. I also enjoy Professor Christine Hayes! These two women have a very middle approach, and a open mind on both ideologies. This is my viewpoint as well. We realize alot of the fundamental mistakes made by the Church. Then I do accept many teachings of Judaism, but also know some of the rabbis distorted teachings of the book. I actually believe that Christ fufilled the role of Moshaich Ben Joseph. No one can claim that the two coming messiahs would come one after another. The house of Joseph had a different role to fufill than Judah. Jeremiah 31:31-33 gives you an indication that GOD'S new covenant would be the same covenant, but split by the two houses, and a different role to fufill his global plan. The house of Joseph had to become gentile, to save the gentiles. One house would be the peservers, while the other house would take the external blessings to the nations.Judah kept Torah, while Joseph kept Messiah. Joseph brought Messiah to all nations, While Judah brought the law to all nations. This is why Jews dominate the legal profession, and Joseph the agriculture field. One messiah with two advents for two purposes. Messiah of peace brings 2,000 years of war. Messiah of war will bring eternal peace. I can elaborate on all this much further,but it would take far too long. However you are a real pleasure to listen to! Thank you! And I hope there are more of these to come!🙏🙏🙂🙂!
I love this interview, I could listen to her speak for hours. A very balanced approach in dissecting, analyzing and teaching about both religions and their historical shared past ❤
I also liked very much but in my opinion she tried to aproximate the judaism to the christian perspectives and maybe if she did the contrary would cause another effect as the daughter reconciliating with his mother and mother accepting his daughter as she really is with its imperfections but plain of love and charity
In Antioch, they first used the term Christians; on a defined date, the Jews excluded them from the synagogue because of a tax exemption withdrawal because this sect was no longer classed as Jewish. I personally still call myself a Jewish origin Catholic Christian.
What a great conversation! I really enjoyed Professor Siegal’s honest & comprehensive discussion. We Christians (Evangelical-Charismatic-Zionist style here) & Religious Jews have a shared foundation & value system. The correct attitude of Christianity towards Judaism & Jews should be gratefulness. Most of us should agree that our ultimate goal should be to find Truth. We should never fear that journey as long as we are trusting in the True & Living God of the Bible and using wisdom in our search. There is a book that I used to have that discussed the issue of the break between Synagogue & Church. Unfortunately, it’s lost. I believe the name was “Our Father Abraham”. It went into the tumultuous times in the first, second & third centuries AD (CE). My Lord Jesus prophesied that the Church would be quickly infiltrated with weeds among the wheat. The hateful anti-semitism of much of the early Church leadership had always baffled me. This is just one of the many examples of weeds being sown in the Church. The feelings between Christians & Jews were pretty mutual, btw. Many early Christians continued Biblical Hebrew traditions rather than the newly forming Catholic ones. The Church Council of Laodicea (about 350 CE) forbade Christians from resting on Sabbath and observing the “Festivals of the Jews”. Punishment for violations included confiscation of property, imprisonment & even death! In one generation, “Christians” lost all connection to our Jewish roots. It was a definite plot of the enemy (from the parable of the Wheat & the Tares). I use the term “Christian” here to mean any Church/Parish member. Much like the word “Jew” doesn’t necessarily mean a religiously observant servant of YHVH; “Christian” doesn’t necessarily mean a genuine, born-again, earnest follower of Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ). I use the term in that context here. Thank God that we Christians are finally reconnecting with the Festivals of Leviticus 23. Some are seeing the benefits of observing Sabbath & the dietary laws. I am part of a group that regularly observes what we call “The 7 Festivals of the Messiah”. We are not Jews. We don’t portray ourselves as Jews. And I think that it would be offensive to genuine Jews if we did. Jesus said specifically that He did not come to abolish the Law. Paul tells us under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit , that if one is a Jew when he comes to faith in Jesus - to remain a Jew (observing Torah); and if one is a Gentile who comes to the same faith, there is no need to become an observant Jew, too. Jesus, Paul, Peter & all the New Testament writers (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) tell us that ALL the moral requirements of Torah are still in effect. And they even command us to go beyond the (minimum) requirements of the Law! It’s not enough that I don’t murder an enemy. I am commanded to forgive, pray for & even help him. Back to the Festivals of Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, Yom Teruah, You Kippur, & Tabernacles. I am not required to observe them. But, I can. And in doing so (albeit partially) I obtain tangible reference points to the Redemptive Plan of God towards us human beings, who He loves dearly. “ Our Father Abraham” sheds a great deal of light on how the 3 Great Jewish revolts against Rome contributed to antisemitism among Gentile believers. Yes, I said 3 not 2. Well worth a read. I highly recommend following Dr Ken Johnson’s work in translating the Dead Sea Scrolls for public consumption. You can find him easily on TH-cam. The original split(s) may have been more of an internal family battle. Essenes on one side vs the Pharisees & Sadducees on the other. Keep up the good work. Again, thank you. May the Most High bless You & Yours mightily!
I hope at some point you will realize that if the Jews were to have received their prophesied kingdom, they would have received it in the first century and Jesus’s promise to return before they died would’ve been fulfilled (Matthew 16:28 KJV) Obviously (to me anyway) their refusal to acknowledge the very Son of God as their long-awaited Messiah was the end of their chances to receive it! Today it’s extremely difficult to find a true Hebrew and those that call themselves Jews are descendants of Eastern European converts to Judaism, and their customs and culture are Yiddish. I think people overlook the fact that everything changed after Acts 28:28-31 when former Diana-worshipping pagans believed the gospel and in so doing, they (or God actually) changed the trajectory of salvation from that point on until the appearing of Jesus Christ (Colossians 3:4 KJV). There’s a reason that Paul never quotes from the Old Testament again after Acts closed at Acts 28:31; and he never again mentions Israel receiving her kingdom (although he does mention a kingdom, Colossians 1:13 KJV, he does not refer to it as a kingdom in which Israel has the preeminence; it has now become the kingdom of God’s dear Son. God does not owe Israel (even if it really existed) anything after he sent them his Son and let them conspire to have him killed, and then even after he rose from the dead in an offer to be their national Kinsman Redeemer, they still spurned his offer, preferring like always to do it themselves! That defiance resulted in the loss of everything they were so proud of and there is no indication from scripture that they’ll get a do-over! All humans are Gentiles today no matter what they choose to call themselves and all are eligible to accept the gift of eternal life - Ephesians 2:8&9 KJV - a gospel with absolutely no strings attached! Leave your own righteousness out of it! We need to make this fantastic free offer of a paradise beyond our wildest dreams known to the world at large! Please help spread the good news!
@@dfkuz - I know that you are well meaning. You just happen to be wrong in your assessments. Your assertions are of mixed truthfulness. The foundations of your “Replacement Theology” are flawed. There is some truth in it them. But the whole truth is not in your thought process. You have left out so much of Biblical prophecy, that you could rightly be accused of treating the Word of God like a pick & choose buffet. A comprehensive & actual discernment of the Word requires that we take the full counsel of God’s Word into account, even the passages that refute our pet doctrines. There are so many passages still left to be fulfilled that expressly are about Israel, Jacob & even the Jews (Judeans). The entire Book of Zechariah comes to mind. Paul addresses the eventual return of Israel to the Lord in 3 chapters of Romans (that being a remnant, no doubt). Remember the “temporary blindness” concerning the Jews (Judeans actually). A large portion of Jews did become believers (it appears that these were largely the Biblical Literalists that we call Essenes). Again, Dr Johnson’s work is shedding even more light on the subject than what we already knew. Remember that the earliest persecuted Church was made up almost entirely of Jews. The current state of Israel is fulfilling many Biblical Prophecies today! 50 (from one book) that I’ve read. If these folks are not Jews, they sure are inadvertently fulfilling a lot of prophesy. And, yes, Amen. Jesus Christ is our Salvation. This is true for both Jew & Gentile. Look into the Biblical Feasts of Leviticus 23. There is prophecy in Type & Shadow of our Lord’s Redemptive Plan -all spelled out for us to see! Why did the established State Roman Church forbid the celebration of these Mo’edim almost as soon as it came to political power? Tares were in charge!
@@stevent8314 I appreciate your time and zeal! We need more zeal in those that take the Bible seriously and I can sense that you have a heart for God’s (former) chosen people, Israel. If you know your scriptures and I know you do, then you are well aware of the fact that Satan wants to be “like the Most High and he also wants to deceive as many people as he can in order to prevent them from coming to a knowledge of the truth and to ultimately perish. He knows that if he can draw our focus to Israel and their prophecy, that can cause weaker Bible students to become more legalistic just because Israel’s program was legalistic. When I did believe in a “pre-trib rapture” (and I believed in it so much that I wrote a novel based on it that got picked up by a publisher), I was taught that the rapture was signless and like a thief in the night and that Israel’s prophecy would not begin to be fulfilled until after the Christians were gone! All of a sudden that belief has gone out the window and people on TH-cam are filling the airwaves with the SIGNS that we are in the END TIMES or really close to them! Speaking of Satan, did you know that many of the Jews in Israel and other places around the world are Kabbalistic Jews that also study Zohar in which it secretly teaches that Satan created God? Yes, many Jews are taught that and then there also a lot of Jews that are complete atheists and just enjoy the status they have with America’s evangelicals. So with Satan firmly planted in the midst of modern-day Israel, it’s not surprising that he might counterfeit certain events and use them to promote the idea that either the Messiah will soon appear (to the Jews) or that the signs are being fulfilled for the real Messiah to return. Either way, Israel profits from all the attention. Make a buck, keep a buck. Yes, the redemptive plan of God’s Son is painted in broad strokes all over the Old Testament and even in the stars in their constellations. It’s a shame that enough of his people didn’t recognize him so he could establish their kingdom at his first coming. I always ask people that insist Israel will still get their kingdom, why did Jesus break his clear promise to return before the lifetime of his followers was over in passages like Matthew 16:28 KJV? Why did Paul declare that some of them which are alive and remain would see the second coming along with their resurrected fellow believers that had died beforehand, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17? Two failed prophecies of the second coming of Christ! And no explanation really. Where does Paul reassure his churches that these prophecies will be fulfilled in the distant future? Paul never speaks of a kingdom specifically for Israel ever again after Acts 28. He barely mentions the word, Israel! He does speak of a kingdom of God’s dear Son (Colossians 1:13 KJV) but that doesn’t sound like a kingdom where Israel will have the preeminence; it sounds like a kingdom given to the Son for him to enjoy with those he wants with him in it - his fellow heirs (Ephesians 3:6 KJV, which will probably be the Jewish saints from since the world began, the Greeks added to Israel’s program for to provoke the Jews to jealousy (Deut 32:21 & Romans 11:11 KJV because they were authentic believers in Christ. Then comes the surprise last minute guests to the party that will last for all eternity - the pagan Gentiles that had had “no hope of God in the world because they (and you and me) were @strangers from the covenants of promise” and “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel” (the very opposite of the Greek Gentiles in Acts) who suddenly believed the gospel of Jesus Christ in fulfillment of Acts 28:28 KJV. I secretly think that we were slated to occupy all those empty seats that should have had Jews in them but won’t! Israel’s loss is our gain! If you can show me anywhere in Paul’s post-Acts letters where he speaks to his brethren the Jews with reassurance and hope that they will still receive that kingdom of their very own, I will rethink this, but if Jesus can fail to keep his promise in Matt 16:28 and in Matthew 10:23, then it just logically follows that he can just as easily decide to not fulfill all of the other prophecies if his second coming in glory to the nation of Israel. He will return but the program for the play has been revised due to lack of interest in the part of those he died for as their Kinsman Redeemer.
There was Canaan and there was the kingdom of Judah and Israel, and a few more. And sometimes people went inside and took over the territory of Canaan, the territory of Canaan was an area and it was built through kingdoms that came from outside all the time, or were built slowly from several races, cultures, and tribes, and from some of them came the monotheistic religions, that's how I see it from an archaeological point of view...
That's about right I see the indigenous people (the Canaanites) as being like chameleons becoming Jewish then Christian then Muslim in turn Of course being a land bridge between western Asia and north Africa there would have been people passing through as well as invading armies but the outsiders would always have been the minority
Wow. How is it that this is even a discussion? Christ was reared a Jew. He taught from the OT. The separation happened as soon as the first person believed that Christ was Messiah. And as each new believer came along, the separation became larger. There is no "date" for this. Her convoluted description of historical examination of this subject is vacuous. Christ came and the separation was the result of his being rejected. He addressed his Jewish brothers first and presented himself as Messiah. They said no. Hence a division between Jews and believers in Christ. How hard is that to figure out? Read John 10:22 or Romans 11:1-21. These and other New Testament writings detail the division she speaks of. There is no mystery here. The Jews described Christ as a liar and heretical and a blasphemer. Eventually their leaders had him murdered. Perhaps that is when the actual separation occurred. God sent His Son as prophesied and he was killed for making the claims he made. It was known that he was coming... read the prophets. Yet, they did not recognize him. The world changed because of this "separation."
It is refreshing to hear someone say there were many "ways"! Christ (and Paul) were born into a myriad of Jewish beliefs: Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots, Essenes, etc... and pointed out that none of them were truly following God the way that Abraham, Moses and David followed Him. Unfortunately, just as followers of the fathers splintered into Jewish groups, the followers of Christ and Paul splintered into a new 'mess' of Christian groups. Perhaps one should see what Abraham, Moses, David, the Prophets, Christ and Paul actually said and did (not what we are told they meant) and do that.
When a Jew looks at "The life of Brain" they see the analytics of the movie When a christian looks at "The life of Brian" they see blasphemy Depends on which side of the fence you stand
We may look back one day to realize that the problem in the usual discussion is the assumption that there existed separately A & B, when there were many fluid flavors of both across a spectrum of Mosaic Law to Pauline Antinomianism. It may well be that both (or even a multitude of) approaches to the religion of Yahweh were envisioned in the Bible from the very first.
Paul was not "antinomianism." In fact, there is significant New Testament evidence that Paul, a Pharasee, followed Torah law. Examples: He circumcised Timothy, shaved his head and took a vow, went to the synagogue on Sabbath, observed the Jewish Feasts, etc. Paul taught that salvation could not and never did come through the law. He taught that the law was good. "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.' -Romans 7: 12
Paul stated in Acts that he still believed in the authority of the Law and the Prophets, so he was by no means an antinomian. Ppl assume that about him because they misread passages where he appears to teach against law and ignore/overlook the passages where he clearly teaches adherence to the Law or reinforces its authority.
His simple question really does have a simple answer! Jesus "preached"/spoke his message to the Jews only. What happened to Jesus? Was Jesus crucified on the cross? So did the Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah? Or did the Jews reject Jesus at the the Messiah? What happened to the second Jewish temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD/CE? Why did the Jews end up outside of their homeland living among other people?
I was always under the impression that Paul pretty much invented Christianity as the people who actually knew Jesus were all still practicing Jews, but with a slightly new hermeneutic of Torah. This was all really interesting to hear how things developed through time.
At some point, discussion is fruitless. When you talk about Christianity as just a way of looking at "religion" you miss the point. Either Jesus is God, the Messiah or he's liar. Choose whom you will follow. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father, but through Me".
@ 5:52 >> I would highly suggest watching this movie by Monty Python, "The Life of Brian" ... Prof Siegel has my admiration. Moreover, though she refers us to that great work of art for academic purposes, that movie is a million laughs. And, kudos to this Kedem channel. Excellent source of scholarship on "the academic study of the ancient near east."
Another thing I forgot to explain: A MAT means PENTAGRAM (fivehouse or five star) which you have to double for getting a tenside figure with a hexagram, a pentagram, but also a triangle which goes 'around the corner' since we have to deal with INTERFERENCE in language. The number SEVEN is helixing in EIGHT: ZEVEN-ACHT > ZEVENACHT > SEVEN EIGHT > SEVEN-NIGHT which comes from KNIGHT which means in Dutch kruisridders (> crusaders), who were not riding on a horse, but CROSSING the OCEAN with their SAILINGBOATS: ZEEVAARDERS > FARI-ZEEERS .... Not, it is again your turn, Michal ..
@@peterfireflylund No...he was the son of Biggus Dickus van Morus son of bovis stercus. Ha ha . You put it well. Forgive my latin . I learnt it from Kromaggs. G'day from Australia mate 🇦🇺 .
Regarding the boiling excrement thing, it seems to be a response to Jesus making fun of the Pharisees by doing a playword on פ-ר-ש which is the same root of Pharisees and excrement (this is in the gospels, but many people do not understand this due to not having a deep understanding of Hebrew). Regarding the play word of Pantera, as she mentioned - it is a modern claim, and the fact that it wasn't recognized to be that way in ancient times by native Greek speakers probability means that it is not correct. Also, there even is evidence of Pantera being used as a Jevvish name. It could be that Jesus was the son of Pantera, but that Pantera was a Jevv or Samaritan serving in the Roman army.
Can you elaborate on your statement "a response to Jesus making fun of the Pharisees by doing a playword on פ-ר-ש which is the same root of Pharisees and excrement" not being familiar with Hebrew I am not sure about what you are trying to share.
Jesus spoke Aramaic, He only heard ancient Hebrew in the temple and understood it as the liturgical language. Ancient Hebrew differs from modern Hebrew and Ancient Aramaic. Matthew 15 v10-12 I very clear, Jesus is teaching that kosher food isn't what makes one unclean, it's vile language which makes one unclean. Today Samaritans still speak/use Ancient Hebrew.
@@SaintCharbelMiracleworker @Saint Charbel Miracleworker You're not coming up with anything new or original, you're just regurgitating things that have already been spoken and heard a thousand times. We know next to nothing on the historical Jesus and can only speculate based on what little we have, yet you speak as if you met him in person, which is absurd. Explicit references to what language was spoken such as in Acts 26 : 14 say Hebrew explicitly, not Aramaic, and from sayings and other indicators, it is very likely that if Jesus existed, he spoke Hebrew. There are implicit references in the text for Aramaic, but we don't know if that is just due to the way the text was written and passed down rather than reality. The Greek text in the form we have today is not the same as the original Hebrew/Aramaic text, and even that is not the same as actual history and reality.
The tenet of Christianity is that there is only one way; without one way, you no longer have Christianity. You can debate the validity of the claim. You can debate the meaning of the claim. But to deny the claim exists shows a profound misunderstanding of nature of the belief.
They separate when Jesus came with a new form of Judaism, a more modern way of living in the believe of only one God. Jesus departed from many tradition and nonsense of Judaism. For example when a woman was about to be killed for adultery, Jesus pardoned her. That was again the mosaic law that said she most suffer a horrible death.
Read the story again. Jesus is ENDORSING the death penalty (John 8:1-12). Deuteronomy 17:7 calls for the witnesses to cast the first stone. The guilt, in the event the accused was falsely convicted, falls on the one who testifies as witness to the crime, instead of on the community. Perjury required the liar to receive the punishment the person falsely accused would have received (Deuteronomy 19:16-19). He's telling the Pharisees, who have brought this woman they claim was caught in the act of adultery into the Temple court to trap him, that if they've got the goods and their witness(es) have clean hands, go ahead and execute her. Read John 7 for the setup. The Pharisee leaders were upset with the Temple police because they hadn't arrested Jesus, so they devised a trap. Chapter 7 shows a lot of controversy swirling around Jesus with a lot of speculation about who he was. Some even wanted to kill him. The Pharisees dismissed him and his Galillean followers as a bunch of rubes who didn't know the Law. They were calling them the ancient equivalent of today's deplorables, so the Pharisees set out to prove it and, at a minimum, hold Jesus up to ridicule and show him to be a false or uneducated Torah teacher whose followers would then abandon him. There are several reasons I believe the text shows the woman was not an adulteress in fact. First, if she had been caught doing this crime, by what authority do Pharisees drag her off as an exhibit in their debate with this Galillean teacher instead of taking her to authorities who can administer her punishment? Second, how do you bring an impure woman -- ritually impure because of recent sexual activity and morally and legally impure because of her adultery -- into the Temple precinct? Sexual intercourse rendered the man and woman unclean until evening (Leviticus 15:18). Surrounding the Temple Mount today are remains of mikvahs -- ritual bathing pools that all were required to enter to attain ritual purity before ascending the Mount . That couldn't be bypassed. Third, when the Pharisees -- defeated by Jesus -- depart, they leave this allegedly guilty woman behind. The point of their trap had been to show that Jesus would not uphold the Law. The Pharisees were scrupulous about keeping the Law, and we're supposed to believe they suddenly lost interest in seeing that the Law's requirements were carried out with this woman they claimed was caught in the act? Nope -- the woman was a shill. She was part of the Pharisees' plot to entrap Jesus. Their scheme fell apart when Jesus called their bluff by following the Law precisely when he told them to have their witness(es) execute her. They weren't prepared to do that -- she was innocent of the false charge and executing her would have made them subject to the same death penalty. So, caught in their own trap, they filed off. Note the fact their order of departure was from eldest to youngest, showing that this was an organized drill. So, now it's just the woman and Jesus (plus the crowd he was teaching), and he asks where are her accusers. There are none, she replies. Once again, Jesus -- Torah faithful -- tells her he doesn't condemn her. Without witnesses willing to back up their testimony by casting the first stone at the potential cost of their own life, no accusation remained against the woman. There was nothing to adjudicate ... except her participation in the Pharisee's fraudulent scheme. That was the sin Jesus told her to not do again.
If that's your takeaway of Christ's intentions, then you need to read what He says in Matt. 5:17 that no one was to even think that He came to oppose Moses. Christ offering the woman an out on account of the religions leaders trying to trap Him wasn't the same as Him opposing Moses, which is why He told her not to sin any more. She was 100% guilty, but He didn't allow them to use it against Him.
@@JonJaeden You need to be honest. Tell the world of your secret discover of time traveling. That is the real reason you know the woman was part of the trap for Jesus. You went back to that moment in time. You were there!!!!!!
@@johndefalco7454 One could wish that was possible. Alas, we're stuck with having to actually read the story and weigh all the evidence. You might want to try it.
I can tell you exactly where Christianity and Judaism separated….it happened right where the Jewish leaders decided that Jesus did not meet with their expectations of a conqueror that would defeat the Romans, even though He had fulfilled all of the old testament prophecies. There were was only a few like Nicodemus who sought him out, because they knew indeed who he was. The rest saw him as a threat to their prestige and power.
@@KEDEMChannel I think more importantly we need to respect the fact that God had a plan, and knew exactly what would happen when the messiah fulfilled the prophecies and presented himself to the leadership. Remember all of the times that they were referred to as a "stiff- necked people," meaning that they did not find the ability in themselves to bow their head. They strayed from God like lost sheep, and were brought back and strayed again, and were brought back and strayed again...... and this is because they are human. When God describes the nation of Israel as his chosen people, what often does not get asked is, "chosen for what?"...and one of those reasons is to show us all that we are caught in a trap of sin. Our messiah is the only way to escape that sin, because there is no good work... no observation of feasts or holy days...or respect for hundreds of laws.... that is capable of taking away our sin. Instead, the blood on the lentels during passover came from a spotless lamb, which is a vision of the future for the shed blood of the Messiah..... the only sacrifice that can permanently remove and forgive our sin. Just as God provided Abraham with a sacrifice, be also provided a sacrifice for us.
Exactly. Years of scholarship are fruitless without this simple understanding. Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism are not brothers, they are diametrically opposed.
Very interesting overview. Also looking at early christiannities that were very different from each other also reveals much abiut the connections and what was retained from judaisms etc.
I thought it’s obvious to everyone who has ever read Paul’s epistles. It’s Paul that took out very Jewish teaching of Jesus and converted them to Rome (ergo paganism). Virgin births, incarnation of divine into a human, ritualistic cannibalism and human sacrifice, all exist in paganism but never in Judaism.
You cannot logically square this false assumption with Paul plainly stating in Rom. 3:31 that all of the apostles were upholding the authority of the law. This would naturally include himself. You also cannot reconcile this false assumption with him stating in Eph. 4:17-19 where he also plainly explains why Christians are not supposed to live like Gentiles.
Thank you for this wonderful conversation. Funny fact: In the German Rhine Area, we have the tomb of the Roman soldier Panthera. We Catholics from the Rhine Area are famous for laughing at ourselves. We say: We have the Roman tomb stone of the father of Jesus. So, two stories might have interchanged with another. Let's imagine the story of a Roman soldier Panthera who was a womanizer. And in the other hand the polemic intention to ridicule Mary, the virgin (parthenos) with the similar sounding name Panthera, "She also had something with this Panthera guy." In oder to live in peace together, let's have a bit of fun together. Shalom.
Personally I think it really starts to seperate once the questioning of Jesus's resurrection takes him from an exalted christology to an incarnate christology. There is plenty of information about heretical Christians adding ongoing developments throught the 1st and 2nd century and over time you see Christianty drifting away from Jewish roots.
The New Testament in Acts chapter 15 records the parting of ways. This Paul tells us occurred 14 years after his conversion, around 48/49AD. This is confirmed by secular history when Emperor Nero expelled Jews from Rome in 49/50AD because of internal fighting amongst themselves was causing havoc in Rome. Up until this time period, Christianity as an independent religion from Judaism didn't exist. Christians regarded themselves and were regarded by others as a Jewish Messianic Pharisee sect. All gentile converts to early Christianity had to undergo regular Jewish conversion. Thus the fighting in Rome within the Jewish community, was either between Messianic Christian Jews and non Messianic Jews, or between followers of Paul and the Messianic Christian Judaizers. All of whom the Roman government classified as Jews. The confusion of later evidence of Jewish/Christian cooperation, is because there were two forms of Christianity until the collapse of Rome in the 5th century. The one group, the Ebonites, followed Jewish customs, Paul refers to them as Judaizers, the second group according to Acts 15, stopped following Jewish customs and consistent mainly of gentile converts to Christianity. The first group demanded that pagan gentiles wishing to follow Jesus had to convert to Judaism and follow Jewish customs and law. The second group did not demand this of pagan gentile converts to Christianity. Obviously the second group, the Acts 15 group, multiplied faster and survived the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century. The Judaizer Ebonites of Rome were probably descendants of refugees that fled Israel after the Bar Kochbar rebellion of 134-136AD, as the New Testament places them like the Sadducees as living in Jerusalem near the Temple. 1Cor. 16:3. They probably didn't have have many communities in the rest of the Roman Empire, as it seems that the Acts 15 group following Paul were the most active as missionaries to the gentiles, and became the majority group.
@@robertsoslow733 what is belief? Everything I wrote is historical fact. She's a scholar, I'm a scholar, you are a scholar, we all are scholars. The question is which scholar is using facts to explain their answer and which is using suppositions and conjecture? If there is something I wrote that you need a deeper explanation for, ask.
@@broz1488 Your source is your Bible. A scientist, for example, would never use that as a source text. The Bible was written by many different people with different opinions over a long period of time. So, how can it be used as fact? And please understand that I DO respect your beliefs. It just that belief and fact are different.
@@robertsoslow733 the Bible can be used as a factual document on its own merit. Every historical event recorded in the Bible has been verified by archeology. Every scientific claim made by the Bible has been verified by science. Every medical statement made by the Bible has been verified by medical science. There is no book written by man more accurate than the Bible. If the Bible says up and another book says down, science will prove the Bible correct. The Bible has proven itself to be so accurate, that every theory of man can be run past the Bible to be verified it as true or false. You would think by now that people would get over their God phobias and hangups, and recognize the Bible for the litmus test for truth that it is.
@@broz1488 Did you think she based her arguments on suppoaition and conjecture? Have you read the same texts so that you can determine how strong those sources were? I didn't, but I'm curious about you.
The Jews cannot accept the Christian interpretation of the Old Testament. For Christians Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy.
ABSURD, THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH/STATE, STOLE A RELIGION CALLED JUDAISM, USED A SAMARITAN/BENJAMITE/GENTILE,/APOSTLE NAMED PAUL, ROMANS 11:1..AND HIS LETTER'S..TO START A GREECO/ROMAN STATE CHURCH, WHICH?????..THEN HAD A SCHISM OF PROTESTANT FOLLOWERS, UNDER ANOTHER LEADER, LUTHER/CALVIN, TO START A PROTESTANT REVOLT/REFORMATION,...THESE PROTESTANT'S..THEN BROKE OFF TO START 40,000 DIFFERENT BLENDS, CULTS, CLICKS, GROUPS..PENTECOSTAL, APOSTOLIC, BAPTIST, LUTHERAN, PRESBYTERIAN, 7TH DAY ADVENTIST, DUTCH REFORM, AMISH, JW, MORMONS. METHODICAL, ETC..WITH EACH OF THESE RELIGIOUS CLUBS, HAVING THEIR OWN SET OF RULES, TULIPS, HOT/COLD, ON/OFF,..PRE TRIB, MID TRIB, POST TRIBULATION, NO TRIBULATION, ALL ARE JUST A CORRUPTION OF JUDAISM, HOLY BIBLE THE TaNakh, AND ITS SACRED SCRIPTURE'S A DAMNATION, TO ABBA SHULI HU'MELECJ HA'OLAM HA'KADOSH BARUCH...return to the Father God, Elohim, REPENT of the wickedness, you've inherited lies, grab the Arm of a Jew. and ask him to teach you the TRUTH!!!
Jesus Christ never existed, he was an invention of Paul. There was a man Yeshu_ of Nazara (as found in the Q source), an itenerate Jewish prosylite of Johanan the immerser who died and Yeshu took partial control of his movement. What you see as Christ in the new testament is full of christological contradictions that grew over time. Paul thought Jesus gained Messianic status through his crucifixion, and that he had a new form 'divine breath'. All this crap about emuculate conception or the logos came a century or so later. Read More, study more.
Learnt a good deal about the divergence between Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity. Also learnt about the breakdown in relationships between the two communities, which gave rise to Christian antisemitism.
As good an example of applied historiography as I've heard. The professor's recognition of complexity and willingness to wade through it to a few highlights, to find definition in those and with an almost childlike enthusiasm, to welcome the advances, and not despise not the problems is intellectual maturity itself. I came here to get an understanding of another issue: why do American evangelicals and other Protestants find the practice of Christianity in the first three centuries CE closer to Christian purity than any other? After viewing the video, I'm not much closer to understanding that. But I am fascinated that it is the period when Judaism and Christianity retained some significant ties. What I did learn, though, is very exciting. Thank you.
I always viewed Christianity as Judaism “Lite” in the same way Protestantism is Catholic “Lite.” Basically the same, but with different hats. Ultimately, the separations had more to do with politics and power than any theological fundamentals.
Very interesting talk which describes lots of individual cases from sources trying to make sense of how the “split” occurred between Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism. May I suggest to take this (bottom up) approach and weave it (or combine it with Prof. Joseph Klausner (top down) approach as described in his “From Jesus To Paul” 2 volume books (1935 1940) ? Prof. Joseph Klausner was one of three candidates to become Israel first President. The other two candidates were Prof. Albert Einstein and Prof. Haim Witzmann. Or if you can comment on such approach. Thank you !
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This is such an honest, objective and unbiased assessment. As a Christian who spends almost all my free time learning Jewish history and sources, this is the most balanced and accurate talk I’ve heard on this issue.
Thank you so much 😊
Yes, it is truly refreshing when a historian approaches their work and understands that people are complicated and contradictory. The truth is so much more interesting than a rigid, binary narrative. She is wonderful.
He Goes Before Us -- I AM -- Always Been.
Tsion/Yashrael IS a purpose, a practice, and a place;
Intentional behavior accordingly unTO RighteousNess, Justice, and SetApart:
...sWORD Spirit and Truth withIN one. (echad)
Yahu'Sha Messiah answered, "Thou sayest that I Am a king:
...To (this) end was I born, and for (this) cause came I inTO the world, that I should bear witness unTO the truth. Every (one) that IS of the truth heareth My voice." (Abide, TOdo)
Kingdom CitizenShip and MindSet.
Followers must (die) of self, repent daily, and know the 'good shepherd'. (Kingdom MindSet)
Praise and thanks TO the Most High Ab Yahu'Ah, and all esteem TO His anointed Hebrew Son Yahu'Sha Messiah, our King, High Priest, and Intercessor unTO Life, Love, Logic, and Loyalty everlasting, for believers that "Hear Ye Him!"
sWORD Spirit and Truth -- Morning by Morning!
A highly informative half hour. It was great to have a wise-head explain the fluidity of and what might be called the dialectic of the early centuries of the Common Era. Thank you.
Jewish history is really fascinating isnt it? Im not a believer at all but these last couple years I cant get enough of Jewish history. What an amazing story this group of people have lived!
More of Prof. Michal. A very informative conversation. Thank you.
Will do!
This scholar said so much in such little time. She's is truly a historian without bias. Unfortunately many will dismiss her. But she speaks the truth.
This is an extremely refreshing exercise in intellectual honesty.
Thanks!
My Friend. I happen to disagree and I've just entered my comment in the publick section. I don't want to repeat my argument here but I I'd love to hear your response to it. Kind regards.
Start from the same root nation with many perspective and aspects below the HIStory in facts and timeline running linear. Stay study and explore to enrich ours own faith each other for life more put lot respect and tolerance 🙏
.
Thank you.
Theo R.
The lady is great and very enthusiastic and learned in these subjects. Thanks for posting!
Thank you for watching!
Thankyou i have learned a lot from this.
But did she answer the basic question? Or is she saying it's unknown?
But there has to be some point or event where the Christian Jews no longer identified as Jews. Surely before the time of Constantine.
This was a fascinating talk. You're a brilliant professor.
Not really. Isolated among ignorance she is Einstein. What she is discussing is nothing really new but rather only new to those minds isolated by faith structures from it. Since the trail blaze of men like Robert Eisenman the conversation concerning the quest for the historisity of Jesus and the 1st century movements has been flourishing under a truckload of New rougue scholars. People are simply becoming more and more informed and introduced to cross referencing and actual historical rigors. Its nice to be positive but lets not lionize everyone who happens to know something we havent read ourselves, even if she is pretty hot. lol.
After all let us not ignore the fact that in the concluding analyses it can be said that the Beautiful Prof demonstrated what , upon completion of the Historical Christianity journey almost always reveals. A GENUINE UNCERTAINTY. It may be time to recognise that the misleading history that was being formed with ten foot poles in the turbulance of the 1st century may have been formed literally in a way so as to bury the very bread comes and trail we struggle with today. The type of annoying, weasely, deceptive brilliance some of us would like to strangle with our bare hands.lol.
Thank you so much for this conversation. It always amazes me that anyone can hold so firmly to their religious commitments as to ignore the development and continuum of theological ideas and thought.
As an Eastern Orthodox Christian with deep interest and study of the history and development of Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism, I must say this is by far the most objective and (in my opinion) accurate depiction of how family parted ways.
Sort of.
I am an ingrafted wild olive shoot who has deep love for my distant brethren.
Thank you 🙏
@@KEDEMChannel im from India and I'm Christian
@@KEDEMChannel please explain about me on kabbbalah
Christianity and judaism were never together. Christianity is the Catholic religion and it was established by Christ upon the new covenant. Judaism is an antichrist religion based on the talmud that developed after 70 AD when the Roman army destroyed the temple and the jewish priesthood. The original jewish religion was the law of Moses, which was abolished by Christ. It was not called judaism. The jews who converted to Christ became Catholics. The jews who rejected Christ became enemies and persecutors of the Catholic Church.
@@Emet646 stay tuned
What a breath of fresh air to have someone so balanced in their presentation. Wonderful scholarship
Thank you!
Goofiness
Prof Siegal is such a good speaker. I loved listening to what she had to say as well as watching such an intelligent person express herself so clearly and personally.
Thank you very much Prof Siegal.
We agree!
I'm a seminarian studying to become a Roman Catholic priest and I must say I'm really impressed by the professor's knowledge also about the church fathers. The thesis about the"sister religions" is very appealing and it really illuminates my understanding of the reforms made of the Christian sacrificial memorial meal, the mass, in the 60ies where "liturgical experts" claimed to be closer to the primitive church by copying (table) prayers from modern rabbinic Judaism (mother daughter perspective) which I'm not convinced by.
Coming back to the church fathers I'd find it interesting to see a comparison between their quotes of Scripture and the Septuagint and the Massoretic text.
Thanks for a nuanced, respectful conversation even though it was strong and "inaudible for pious ears" to hear about the claim about the Blessed Virgin being maculated by a Roman soldier. I'm not sure non Catholics will understand how blasphemous such a "joke on words" would have sounded for christians at that time. But it just proves your point even more concerning the indirect "hidden" mockery by the rabbi's of that time.
I heard Professor Bar-Asher Siegal give a talk on the Talmud in a synagogue in the East Village a couple of years ago. She was totally fascinating, a brilliant speaker, one who pulls her entire audience into her material and everything she has learned. She had just taught at Yale Divinity School for a year, and I bet they adored her. She is open-minded and without prejudice and irresistible. She makes scholarship sexy! Kedem is a bright figure, too.
Thank you 😊🙏
i like that really,,"she makes scholarship sexy" ,,thank you.!! brilliant !!
hi there.hola hooray hey. here we go jo the truth coming up,actually turah&bible were from god but they had been corrupted afterwards as a result god sent down quran upon prophet muhammed&god said i`ll preserved the quran thereby god had fulfilled his promise ,let me show u friendly&honestly the truth,okee dokee.shedding the light on christianity to know the truth first of all there is no original bible the 4 main bible are contradicted to each other yet there is 1 quran but who is the writer of bible the answer is paul the jewish who hates jesus let us discuss about the significant event which is crucifixion why does your would claimed god left his only son to crucify without any sin he had committed the disaster reached its uttermost when u found bible said on the tongue of jesus my god my god why do u forsaken me means jesus has never crucified willingly have u an idea why do they `ve crucified jesus because it`s a penalty of an impure &particularly crucifixion because dindn`t touched the earth make it an impured that what paul said jesus gets impure for the sake of us &see the authentic god what does said in quran chapter 3 verse 55 by the name of god the most gracious&most merciful ,
O Jesus, I will take you and raise you up to me, and had purified you from those who disbelieve, and He will place those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection, then to Me is your return, so I will judge between you regarding that in which you differed,the authentic god rose jesus to the sky before they kill him in addition he had purified him from a false accusation of he was an impure . quran verse is comply with the bible itself :So they lifted up stones to stone him. But Jesus did and went out of the temple, passing through them." ( John 8:59 ),let alone of many verses in the bible incites to violence thus u found the largest massacres had happened in history the ww1&2 christian countries against christian countries 100 millions had been killed not to mention the sex stories in the bible nay u never found a single sex word in quran,don`t take it in personal just i clarify u the plain truth,bible said woman when she during the menstruation she gets impure &any thing she would touched it will be impure &should stay at her room till had done of it don`t see that an insulting to woman &how does the claimed god in bible said so he demeans& underrates his own creatures, yet islam honored the woman &she has a complete chapter its name women show us her rights,let us look at modern medicine which refutes the bible, ovulalation happens every 28 days from overy next month from other ovary when fertilization fails to happen mestrual bleading happens it always stops when a female gets pregnant ,menstrual cycle ovulation the female genital system consists of one uterus to overuse vagine& externat genital organs ,,the blood during menstruation could cause diseases to spread and that’s why does a woman during her menstruation needed to isolate so the blood would not be passed around to other people & diseases not be spread that`s what god has said in quran and they ask you about menstruation say, isolate women don't come near them untill they get purified verse 222 chapter 2,why there are priests,pastors&nuns are reverted daily to islam,yet u `ve never a muslim clergy left islam as per western media said that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world,i didn`t like to push islam onto u god said no compulsion in religion verse 256 chapter 2,figure it out then make up your mind,peace....
I may be biased because I am Catholic Christian. But when she talks about the Church Fathers, this men were Catholic. And the Catholic Church has always defined its self as the continuation of the Jewish religion. Even when one goes to Mass many things happening in it are from Old Testament practices. Very interesting interview!!
Excellent understanding needed in Jewish Yeshivas and Christian Seminaries.
Thanks Prof for this talk - will help many of us to reconcile.
This is an amazingly insightful discussion. I wishh as a Palestinian Christian who still speaks Aramaic, that I had friends like Prof. Siegal to have these discussions with as I'm very fascinated by this particular subject.
I very much enjoyed that - and saved it to show my students! I teach a class on Art in the First Millennium, and the separation is a big deal for us! Professor Bar-Asher Siegal is a great talker! I'd love to hear her live. My college's library already has Early Christian monastic literature and the Babylonian Talmud :)
Glad to hear :) Thank you!
Well he's lying to all of you. Don't teach anything until you do your own research
She really gets intellectually energized about this subject as she should.
An almost childlike enthusiasm.
@@jameskeener7251 so organic.
Oh my I just found myself crying. What a beautiful scholarly and... Sad and perhaps hopeful account. We should never have lost each other.
This is a wonderful channel. Thanks for hosting such great talks!
Glad you enjoy it! 🙏
For a atheist like me, I really like this discussion without any bias of religious superiority, which is science based
What an incredibly interesting but complex explanation and very well and honestly substantiated by Prof. Michal Bar-Asher Siegal. Very impressed... I'm a big fan of this professor. Thank you.
Fascinating discussion, thank you so much for making the Professor's insights available to us.
A most impressive analysis and account of the early history of the various forms of Judaism and Christianity - you ask searching question and provide facts and interpretation which are helpful to Jews, Christians or any others interested. The concluding remarks were a more than a model good scholarship but gave us a fresh starting point for future discussion. As a Church of England priest I have always be conscious of a debt to Judaism. I recall a visit to an art gallery in Bond St in London - I had made a mistake and entered the wrong premises. The pictures were wonderful and the aged proprietor came out and I explained my mistake which let to a half hour chat. He was Jewish but I could not understand why his surname was Green, He explained that his Polish or Lithuanian ancestors had no surnames and when they arrived in England they were given ones at random. He said he did not go to synagogue much these days as people were so contentious. He had a weekend cottage in the Cotswold Hills near Oxford and would wander up to ancient Parish church on a Saturday. There, within the prayer soaked walls he said his prayers and felt at home. Influence may not be the term to use but in the Cotswolds, a region famed for its sheep and wool, people understand the term, 'mutual grazing rights'! When taking a marriage service, I made the point that we use the term covenant and I explain its Jewish origins. After one such service, an young man came up and explained he was Jewish. He had accepted the invitation to the wedding with a heavy heart as he expected to be treated as an 'outsider' but came to thank me because he felt included. I always used the Song of Song reading for marriage services - what we share is older than history!
You know what rabbi freedman says? Christians and Jewish people shouldn't talk about religion to each other
@@barbseeley9673 Does this mean we should not extend the courtesy of listening?
@@ianbrowne8871 Christians don't respect other beliefs and that what this guy is doing. Everything he's saying isn't true. You guys think it's fascinating and informative but it's all lies. So don't think you're getting any truths here
@@barbseeley9673 I find your comment confusing. I was commenting on the work and research of a female professor which forms the greater part of the post. I have not made any comment on ‘he’ whoever that is. I am not one for taking offence but to is plain to most people that all religious faiths have differences of opinion within them and that comments beginning, “All …. make sweeping generalisations which careful research usually undermines and shows their absurdity.
@@ianbrowne8871 well try and figure out if I tagged you by accident, I do that a lot. Oh no that was to you. It seems like you're trying to find similarities between Christians and Jewish people. But I may be wrong. On threads like these it's easy to loose track
This is an excellent lecture, and the Professor’s explanation of how the scholarship on the separation of Christianity from Judaism changed over time clarified for me why the scholarship seems to be disjointed.
Indeed. Thanks 🙏
An outstanding scholar! A truly eye opening approach to such a highly contentious and complicated schism!
Thanks 🙏
Excellent, honest, insightful
Thank you!
The new testament actually condemns any boasting among gentile Christians, a boasting that would otherwise reduce the divide between Judaism and Christianity as a mere power struggle (as mentioned in the video), an attitude that might falsely echo, "…we [the gentiles] are now favored by God, not you [the Jews who rejected Christ]".
At least from the perspective of Catholicism, Christianity does not negate nor replace the elect status of the Jews. The Church therefore teaches that our division is providential (then and now). Consequently, “replacement theology” (or supersessionism) is not taught by the Catholic Church. The Church has expressed this maybe half a century a go and although it was long overdue it was necessary because it's not supported biblically or theologically. However, although there were bad attitudes within the Church who previously reflected this negative perception (toward the Jews), it was never an official teaching nor were there any teachings to justify such attitudes.
For some context regarding the above see Romans 11:17-24
“17 But if some of the branches were broken off [the Jews], and you, a wild olive shoot [the Gentiles], were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you [the Jews]. 19 You will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. [i.e. lest the Gentile Christians become too cocky or arrogant] 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.”
Certainly a dead branch cannot be grafted into a living tree. This is why Catholicism does not reject the elect status of the Jews relative to salvation history.
For more on this, Roy Schoeman (a former Jewish atheist who "converted" to Catholicism and who still considers himself Jewish) unpacks the significance of Romans (and more) in the following talk. He basically speaks to the relationship between the Jews and Gentiles relative to Judaism and Christianity. The video is linked at the appropriate time stamp th-cam.com/video/5nwW4A0OfhM/w-d-xo.html
Thank you, helpful & well done overview by Prof. Siegal. Toda Rabah.
Thanks!
Interesting conversation, even for an atheist like me. Thanks for this.
Glad you enjoyed it. We focus, inter alia, on a scholar’s views on theological questions, in order to better understand the history through the development of religious, by bringing the most updated academic perspective directly to our audience. Thank you for watching!
@@KEDEMChannel There is No Abrahamic covenant outside of Jesus Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew or Greek; there is neither bond nor free; there is neither male nor female in Christ For ye are all One n Christ
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abrahams's seed and heirs according to the Promise ~
Ephesians 4-5 One Lord One Faith One Baptism ~ John 8:58 Truly I tell you: Before Abraham was: I am ~
You can be an atheist and not lose your Jewish blood
Wow. This was totally fascinating. Fantastic! I would say as a Christian that our two faiths are forever bound together. They must be, if only on the basis that we both consider the Hebrew Testament as authoritative scripture. And equally to the point, while we may disagree on the interpretation of some verses we as Christians quote - we still acknowledge that the Christian Testament relies on the Hebrew Testament for its authority as sacred text. We cannot have a Jesus or even much of the Christian Testament without the Jewish underpinnings. Anybody who actually thinks about these things must recognize that. Because of that, even today as Professor Siegal noted, while our cultures are quite different - we have theologically arrived at many of the same conclusions, if using different methods to get there. Professor Siegal really has a gift for explaining this. Kudos Professor!
Thanks fr sharing, I'm hoping fr the next interview with this professora!
What a great series!!!!
Thank you!
I like the way it is explained that there were many different ways, not just two. It is helpful to see that one way of looking at it is that the two never separated: The Jewish Messiah started winning Jews and Gentiles over to the God of Israel once he rose from the dead. The circumcision of the heart that was prophesied by Jeremiah (4:4) began to take place among Jews and Gentiles, and of the two groups was made one people of God. There is more than one covenant in Judaism, and looked at through several covenants of the Tenak, we find Christianity assenting, and illuminating the Tenak. What happened then with Constantine was a whole different story, but that was not true of Christianity around the world, only in Europe. It is not true of the vast majority of converts to Christianity today, since the vast majority of new converts are not tied closely, if at all, to that tragic legacy some refer to as Christendom, rather than calling it Christianity. Good talk! Thank you!
What a brilliant conversation! Thank you for this!
The split came with the Jerusalem Council that took place in 49 or 50 CE.
Paul had brought in a multitude of converts-most of them gentiles-into the movement. James, the brother of Jesus, who led the embryonic Jesus movement in Jerusalem was outraged by Paul's actions and summoned him,accompanied by Barnabas,to Jerusalem to explain himself. Peter was present as well. James held the position that gentile converts should be accepted into the movement only after accepting Judaism first. Paul,of course, totally rejected this.
At the conference, Paul, somehow convinced James (and Peter) that his approach was valid and James gave way. Subject to accepting certain modest dietary restrictions (not full Kashruth), gentiles were now fully accepted. Thus (male) gentile converts did not have to undergo circumcision, sabbath observance was not required of gentiles, and Jewish holidays were irrelevant to gentiles. All that mattered was belief in Jesus. Thus, in that sense, this event marked the beginning of Christianity as a fully distinct faith. (James followers DID continue to observe some Jewish traditions but this group,usually called Ebionites, eventually died out. And the Christianity of today is Paul's version-not James'.)
The Roman authorities,who persecuted Christians but not Jews, after the Great Fire of Rome in 62 CE fully understood that the 2 faiths were, by then, fully distinct -even if Prof. Bar-Asher does not.
This certainly true for Rome in the year 62 « AD ».
I really enjoyed and was excited to listen to this discussion of the early years of Christian and Judaism's development and relationship with one another. Question for the Professor: Rabbinic Judaism is vastly different from Biblical Judaism in my understanding (limited as it is). Am I wrong in thinking that the complex development of Rabbinic Judaism was a reinvention of Judaism due to the 1) loss of the Second Temple in 70 AD and 2) the crushing of the Bar Kokbah revolt around 135 CE and 3) the "annoying" and "persistent" success of Messianic Judaism of the 1st century?
It's interesting that Ethiopian Jews still practice Biblical Judaism, Compared to Jews from Israel and Western countries who practice Rabbinic Judaism or Secular Judaism.
@@tudormiller887
@@tudormiller887 I have not heard of Ethiopian Jews living the way you suggest. I would be interested in hearing more.
How wonderful is this Young Scholar. Bravo.
Thank you 😊
@@KEDEMChannel No. Thank YOU.
the final break between messianic and rabbinic judaism occured with Constintine, and the hijacking of "the way" by the gentiles. When the jewish hierarchy was replaced by non jews you had a new religion that allows anything to get converts namely the synthesis of many mystery religions with into a brand new religion as opposed to an offshoot of judaism. Hence rabbits and eggs on easter, trees, holly, presents, merriment on the 25th of December ( Saturnalia) .
So nice to hear such an eloquent and intellectual conversation without any palpable bias.
Thank you 😊
Fantastic. I hung on every word. I am also pleased that this reinforces what I have learned in my own studies, that I am on the right track.
Thank you 🙏😊
oh are you? not too smart, obviously.
Thank you it is great to have an understanding of both religions. We live in a time where freedom of speech is threatened especially since its purpose is to bring us more understanding. As a Christian, I see the Jewish people as our brothers because we use you Talmut as our Bible as a foundational document. Even the new testament is linked to the old testament.
We believe that in the initial stage, Christ provided a way for the infidels to be saved Hence the tearing of the curtain in the temple. We should be supportive of each other in our own way.
Christianty is far too an aggressive and violent religion to be supported. It's founded on the idea that " I bring not peace but the sword ". T he christian church as corrupted the Tanach to concoct a " new Covenant " and its missionaries in Israel attempt to convert Jews to christianty through false messages and deceit. Jews for jesus is not Jewish it's a Christian fundamental cult. G'day from Australia 🇦🇺 and one for Israel 🇮🇱. :) Cheers. Best to your family .
@@redmatters9318 You obviously do not understand the reason and the context of this text you are using it in a text-proofing manner which is not a correct use of scripture. The verse is addressing the Jewish people the chosen people who were not following God's instructions and he compared their behavior worse to that of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. We are currently living in a similar world environment today. This was so bad that god send his apostles to tell them to change their behavior. And the verse I do not bring peace but the sword is indicative of the behavior of the people It means cutting the bad away from the good. Which is justified. Furthermore Jesus The student is not above the teacher. this is exactly what we have today in the world. We need to repent and tell the people To turn back to God.
@@hermanushulsen9151 You obviously do not understand. The Tanach is our bible, not the Talmud. As Jews we are aware that Christians corrupted the Tanach to concoct a " new Covenant" which largely is based on the writings of a certain Paul ( considered by many observers and some scholars to be bi- polar ) and who never met the G-suz whom you think is the messiah. As Jews ✡️ we do not believe that jesus is the messiah. The Talmud you referred to spoke of a man who was deemed a magician. The Toledot Yeshua speaks of a jesus being the son of biggus Pantera. You need to read of Rambam about our messiah please hermanus before you talk of Jews and Christians ✝️ becoming bosom buddies. The way your missionaries abuse Jews in Israel must also stop if you want to try to be mates or friends. REF to Rabbi Tovias Singers world work available on U Tube. G'day from 🇦🇺 Australia and one for Israel 🇮🇱. Best to your family. :).
@@redmatters9318 That is some Jews do not believe and some do believe in Jesus being the messiah It is a matter of faith. I never said I wanted to be your bosom buddies. I merely refer to the Jews as our brothers in Christ or God. we read from the same book You may be aggressive in your statement but it will never change my love for the Jewish people there are bad people on both sides that is the problem with humans. For me, I live every day with scripture both what I call the old and the new testament I am not trying to convert you either. It is your choice to believe in the Messiah or not.
@@hermanushulsen9151 Of course we believe in a messiah - just not yours ..and we don't read the same bible...the Tanach is different. Jews who believe in G-suz are no longer Jews...and we're not brothers in christ in any shape or form . Christianty has never been good to us. Shalom 😊. G'day Australia 🇦🇺 and Israel 🇮🇱 .am yisrael chai !
Alex , great interview . Good to see you . Roshel
Thank you 😊
My mother, an English Christian from the East end of 1920s London grew up among Jewish refugees. She brought us up as Christians but knowing Jesus as a practising Jew.
Very interetsing and useful discussion. While scholars understand, many followers of both Christianity and Judaism don't realise how diverse both groups were in the first 2 centuries of the Common Era - diverse, and overlapping. Some Christian theologians like Margaret Barker have described how early Christianity was *deeply* immersed in themes of Second Temple Judaism, which were since extinguished in Rabinical Judaism (cf Segal 'Two Powers in Heaven' etc). If we look at Christianity and Judaism today, we see big differences. If we look at the first few centuries, not so much ...
Thank you very much 🙏
That’s just like slowly turning up the heat when boiling a frog. Most Christians were from the Jewish background. You don’t to give them a culture shock by getting rid of the major traditions/habits. Slowly introduce changes little by little which took hundreds of years. Same thing with early Protestants getting away from Catholicism. Traditional Anglicans and Lutherans have basically kept some Catholic traditions. The modernists have totally wiped out old Protestantism.
FULL CHARGES. TOTALLY.
sorry, but the dogmatic bases of Christianity are clearly present since the beginning - and the 'resemblance' with Judaism in that realm is very shallow
@@silveriorebelo2920 So you're saying that Christianity was an entirely new religion, which sprung up fully-formed in 1st century CE? Not connected or related to the Israelite religion that Jesus and the Apostles lived in?
Possibly you are confusing late 2nd Temple Judaism with Rabbinical Judaism. Rabbinical Judaism emerged in the period 200-500CE; and is what most modern Jews follow, whether Askenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, etc, it's what we think of when "Judaism" is mentioned in the modern world. Christianity is quite dfferent to Rabbinical Judaism in many ways; that is true. Before the destructiion of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the forms of Jewish religion were much more diverse than they are today; many previously mainstream traditions of Judaism did not survive, except for the Pharisaical stream which eventually became Rabbinical Judaism. Jewish traditions of the late 2nd Temple period, like the Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, and popular messianic movements, all disapeared after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, and the Temple. Early Christianity is clearly related to some elements of these older, more diverse forms of Judaism; it builds on themes which were already present in 2nd Temple Jewish thinking.That's why, for example, the Jewish Bible (Tanakh) is included in the Christian Bible.
I really enjoy listening to Professor Michal Siegal. I also enjoy Professor Christine Hayes! These two women have a very middle approach, and a open mind on both ideologies. This is my viewpoint as well. We realize alot of the fundamental mistakes made by the Church. Then I do accept many teachings of Judaism, but also know some of the rabbis distorted teachings of the book. I actually believe that Christ fufilled the role of Moshaich Ben Joseph. No one can claim that the two coming messiahs would come one after another. The house of Joseph had a different role to fufill than Judah. Jeremiah 31:31-33 gives you an indication that GOD'S new covenant would be the same covenant, but split by the two houses, and a different role to fufill his global plan. The house of Joseph had to become gentile, to save the gentiles. One house would be the peservers, while the other house would take the external blessings to the nations.Judah kept Torah, while Joseph kept Messiah. Joseph brought Messiah to all nations, While Judah brought the law to all nations. This is why Jews dominate the legal profession, and Joseph the agriculture field. One messiah with two advents for two purposes. Messiah of peace brings 2,000 years of war. Messiah of war will bring eternal peace. I can elaborate on all this much further,but it would take far too long. However you are a real pleasure to listen to! Thank you! And I hope there are more of these to come!🙏🙏🙂🙂!
Thank you! Hope to interview Prof. Hayes soon as well, she is really great 😊
@@KEDEMChannel awesome look forward to it!
I'm in love with this channel. Thank you for the wonderful content you guys produce.
Thank you, our pleasure! Stay tuned, we are coming back in a few days 😊
Great interview. I really appreciated this.
amazing interview
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!
Beautiful lecture!
Many thanks!
I love this interview, I could listen to her speak for hours. A very balanced approach in dissecting, analyzing and teaching about both religions and their historical shared past ❤
Thank you very much, appreciated!
I also liked very much but in my opinion she tried to aproximate the judaism to the christian perspectives and maybe if she did the contrary would cause another effect as the daughter reconciliating with his mother and mother accepting his daughter as she really is with its imperfections but plain of love and charity
In Antioch, they first used the term Christians; on a defined date, the Jews excluded them from the synagogue because of a tax exemption withdrawal because this sect was no longer classed as Jewish.
I personally still call myself a Jewish origin Catholic Christian.
Thank you.
You're welcome!
I’m so glad I subscribed to this channel!
You are welcomed here 🙏
What an engaging guest!
What a great conversation!
I really enjoyed Professor Siegal’s honest & comprehensive discussion.
We Christians (Evangelical-Charismatic-Zionist style here) & Religious Jews have a shared foundation & value system. The correct attitude of Christianity towards Judaism & Jews should be gratefulness.
Most of us should agree that our ultimate goal should be to find Truth. We should never fear that journey as long as we are trusting in the True & Living God of the Bible and using wisdom in our search.
There is a book that I used to have that discussed the issue of the break between Synagogue & Church. Unfortunately, it’s lost.
I believe the name was “Our Father Abraham”. It went into the tumultuous times in the first, second & third centuries AD (CE). My Lord Jesus prophesied that the Church would be quickly infiltrated with weeds among the wheat. The hateful anti-semitism of much of the early Church leadership had always baffled me. This is just one of the many examples of weeds being sown in the Church. The feelings between Christians & Jews were pretty mutual, btw.
Many early Christians continued Biblical Hebrew traditions rather than the newly forming Catholic ones. The Church Council of Laodicea (about 350 CE) forbade Christians from resting on Sabbath and observing the “Festivals of the Jews”. Punishment for violations included confiscation of property, imprisonment & even death!
In one generation, “Christians” lost all connection to our Jewish roots. It was a definite plot of the enemy (from the parable of the Wheat & the Tares).
I use the term “Christian” here to mean any Church/Parish member. Much like the word “Jew” doesn’t necessarily mean a religiously observant servant of YHVH; “Christian” doesn’t necessarily mean a genuine, born-again, earnest follower of Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ). I use the term in that context here.
Thank God that we Christians are finally reconnecting with the Festivals of Leviticus 23. Some are seeing the benefits of observing Sabbath & the dietary laws. I am part of a group that regularly observes what we call “The 7 Festivals of the Messiah”. We are not Jews. We don’t portray ourselves as Jews. And I think that it would be offensive to genuine Jews if we did.
Jesus said specifically that He did not come to abolish the Law. Paul tells us under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit , that if one is a Jew when he comes to faith in Jesus - to remain a Jew (observing Torah); and if one is a Gentile who comes to the same faith, there is no need to become an observant Jew, too.
Jesus, Paul, Peter & all the New Testament writers (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) tell us that ALL the moral requirements of Torah are still in effect.
And they even command us to go beyond the (minimum) requirements of the Law! It’s not enough that I don’t murder an enemy. I am commanded to forgive, pray for & even help him.
Back to the Festivals of Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, Yom Teruah, You Kippur, & Tabernacles. I am not required to observe them. But, I can. And in doing so (albeit partially) I obtain tangible reference points to the Redemptive Plan of God towards us human beings, who He loves dearly.
“ Our Father Abraham” sheds a great deal of light on how the 3 Great Jewish revolts against Rome contributed to antisemitism among Gentile believers. Yes, I said 3 not 2.
Well worth a read.
I highly recommend following Dr Ken Johnson’s work in translating the Dead Sea Scrolls for public consumption. You can find him easily on TH-cam. The original split(s) may have been more of an internal family battle. Essenes on one side vs the Pharisees & Sadducees on the other.
Keep up the good work.
Again, thank you.
May the Most High bless You & Yours mightily!
I hope at some point you will realize that if the Jews were to have received their prophesied kingdom, they would have received it in the first century and Jesus’s promise to return before they died would’ve been fulfilled (Matthew 16:28 KJV) Obviously (to me anyway) their refusal to acknowledge the very Son of God as their long-awaited Messiah was the end of their chances to receive it! Today it’s extremely difficult to find a true Hebrew and those that call themselves Jews are descendants of Eastern European converts to Judaism, and their customs and culture are Yiddish. I think people overlook the fact that everything changed after Acts 28:28-31 when former Diana-worshipping pagans believed the gospel and in so doing, they (or God actually) changed the trajectory of salvation from that point on until the appearing of Jesus Christ (Colossians 3:4 KJV). There’s a reason that Paul never quotes from the Old Testament again after Acts closed at Acts 28:31; and he never again mentions Israel receiving her kingdom (although he does mention a kingdom, Colossians 1:13 KJV, he does not refer to it as a kingdom in which Israel has the preeminence; it has now become the kingdom of God’s dear Son.
God does not owe Israel (even if it really existed) anything after he sent them his Son and let them conspire to have him killed, and then even after he rose from the dead in an offer to be their national Kinsman Redeemer, they still spurned his offer, preferring like always to do it themselves! That defiance resulted in the loss of everything they were so proud of and there is no indication from scripture that they’ll get a do-over! All humans are Gentiles today no matter what they choose to call themselves and all are eligible to accept the gift of eternal life - Ephesians 2:8&9 KJV - a gospel with absolutely no strings attached! Leave your own righteousness out of it! We need to make this fantastic free offer of a paradise beyond our wildest dreams known to the world at large! Please help spread the good news!
@@dfkuz - I know that you are well meaning. You just happen to be wrong in your assessments. Your assertions are of mixed truthfulness.
The foundations of your “Replacement Theology” are flawed. There is some truth in it them. But the whole truth is not in your thought process.
You have left out so much of Biblical prophecy, that you could rightly be accused of treating the Word of God like a pick & choose buffet.
A comprehensive & actual discernment of the Word requires that we take the full counsel of God’s Word into account, even the passages that refute our pet doctrines. There are so many passages still left to be fulfilled that expressly are about Israel, Jacob & even the Jews (Judeans).
The entire Book of Zechariah comes to mind.
Paul addresses the eventual return of Israel to the Lord in 3 chapters of Romans (that being a remnant, no doubt). Remember the “temporary blindness” concerning the Jews (Judeans actually).
A large portion of Jews did become believers (it appears that these were largely the Biblical Literalists that we call Essenes). Again, Dr Johnson’s work is shedding even more light on the subject than what we already knew. Remember that the earliest persecuted Church was made up almost entirely of Jews.
The current state of Israel is fulfilling many Biblical Prophecies today! 50 (from one book) that I’ve read. If these folks are not Jews, they sure are inadvertently fulfilling a lot of prophesy.
And, yes, Amen. Jesus Christ is our Salvation. This is true for both Jew & Gentile.
Look into the Biblical Feasts of Leviticus 23. There is prophecy in Type & Shadow of our Lord’s Redemptive Plan -all spelled out for us to see! Why did the established State Roman Church forbid the celebration of these Mo’edim almost as soon as it came to political power? Tares were in charge!
@@stevent8314 I appreciate your time and zeal! We need more zeal in those that take the Bible seriously and I can sense that you have a heart for God’s (former) chosen people, Israel. If you know your scriptures and I know you do, then you are well aware of the fact that Satan wants to be “like the Most High and he also wants to deceive as many people as he can in order to prevent them from coming to a knowledge of the truth and to ultimately perish. He knows that if he can draw our focus to Israel and their prophecy, that can cause weaker Bible students to become more legalistic just because Israel’s program was legalistic. When I did believe in a “pre-trib rapture” (and I believed in it so much that I wrote a novel based on it that got picked up by a publisher), I was taught that the rapture was signless and like a thief in the night and that Israel’s prophecy would not begin to be fulfilled until after the Christians were gone! All of a sudden that belief has gone out the window and people on TH-cam are filling the airwaves with the SIGNS that we are in the END TIMES or really close to them! Speaking of Satan, did you know that many of the Jews in Israel and other places around the world are Kabbalistic Jews that also study Zohar in which it secretly teaches that Satan created God? Yes, many Jews are taught that and then there also a lot of Jews that are complete atheists and just enjoy the status they have with America’s evangelicals. So with Satan firmly planted in the midst of modern-day Israel, it’s not surprising that he might counterfeit certain events and use them to promote the idea that either the Messiah will soon appear (to the Jews) or that the signs are being fulfilled for the real Messiah to return. Either way, Israel profits from all the attention. Make a buck, keep a buck.
Yes, the redemptive plan of God’s Son is painted in broad strokes all over the Old Testament and even in the stars in their constellations. It’s a shame that enough of his people didn’t recognize him so he could establish their kingdom at his first coming. I always ask people that insist Israel will still get their kingdom, why did Jesus break his clear promise to return before the lifetime of his followers was over in passages like Matthew 16:28 KJV? Why did Paul declare that some of them which are alive and remain would see the second coming along with their resurrected fellow believers that had died beforehand, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17? Two failed prophecies of the second coming of Christ! And no explanation really. Where does Paul reassure his churches that these prophecies will be fulfilled in the distant future? Paul never speaks of a kingdom specifically for Israel ever again after Acts 28. He barely mentions the word, Israel! He does speak of a kingdom of God’s dear Son (Colossians 1:13 KJV) but that doesn’t sound like a kingdom where Israel will have the preeminence; it sounds like a kingdom given to the Son for him to enjoy with those he wants with him in it - his fellow heirs (Ephesians 3:6 KJV, which will probably be the Jewish saints from since the world began, the Greeks added to Israel’s program for to provoke the Jews to jealousy (Deut 32:21 & Romans 11:11 KJV because they were authentic believers in Christ. Then comes the surprise last minute guests to the party that will last for all eternity - the pagan Gentiles that had had “no hope of God in the world because they (and you and me) were @strangers from the covenants of promise” and “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel” (the very opposite of the Greek Gentiles in Acts) who suddenly believed the gospel of Jesus Christ in fulfillment of Acts 28:28 KJV. I secretly think that we were slated to occupy all those empty seats that should have had Jews in them but won’t! Israel’s loss is our gain! If you can show me anywhere in Paul’s post-Acts letters where he speaks to his brethren the Jews with reassurance and hope that they will still receive that kingdom of their very own, I will rethink this, but if Jesus can fail to keep his promise in Matt 16:28 and in Matthew 10:23, then it just logically follows that he can just as easily decide to not fulfill all of the other prophecies if his second coming in glory to the nation of Israel. He will return but the program for the play has been revised due to lack of interest in the part of those he died for as their Kinsman Redeemer.
Bravo I liked this session sister prophesor
There was Canaan and there was the kingdom of Judah and Israel, and a few more. And sometimes people went inside and took over the territory of Canaan, the territory of Canaan was an area and it was built through kingdoms that came from outside all the time, or were built slowly from several races, cultures, and tribes, and from some of them came the monotheistic religions, that's how I see it from an archaeological point of view...
That's about right
I see the indigenous people (the Canaanites) as being like chameleons becoming Jewish then Christian then Muslim in turn
Of course being a land bridge between western Asia and north Africa there would have been people passing through as well as invading armies but the outsiders would always have been the minority
Learning so much from this lady. Where can i hear more from her ? Any other u tube or FB Page? Thank you for this , God bless !
We will soon bring more from her, stay tuned
Wonderful presentation! Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it! 🙏
Very interesting and informative.
Glad you enjoyed it
Wow. How is it that this is even a discussion? Christ was reared a Jew. He taught from the OT. The separation happened as soon as the first person believed that Christ was Messiah. And as each new believer came along, the separation became larger. There is no "date" for this. Her convoluted description of historical examination of this subject is vacuous. Christ came and the separation was the result of his being rejected. He addressed his Jewish brothers first and presented himself as Messiah. They said no. Hence a division between Jews and believers in Christ. How hard is that to figure out? Read John 10:22 or Romans 11:1-21. These and other New Testament writings detail the division she speaks of. There is no mystery here. The Jews described Christ as a liar and heretical and a blasphemer. Eventually their leaders had him murdered. Perhaps that is when the actual separation occurred. God sent His Son as prophesied and he was killed for making the claims he made. It was known that he was coming... read the prophets. Yet, they did not recognize him. The world changed because of this "separation."
Thank you!
You're welcome!
It is refreshing to hear someone say there were many "ways"!
Christ (and Paul) were born into a myriad of Jewish beliefs: Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots, Essenes, etc... and pointed out that none of them were truly following God the way that Abraham, Moses and David followed Him.
Unfortunately, just as followers of the fathers splintered into Jewish groups, the followers of Christ and Paul splintered into a new 'mess' of Christian groups.
Perhaps one should see what Abraham, Moses, David, the Prophets, Christ and Paul actually said and did (not what we are told they meant) and do that.
Surprising remark at 5:42, "I would highly suggest watching this movie by Monty Python, The Life of Brian..." 🤪
Nobody who understands Christianity would say Monty Python was anything but blasphemous. Unbelievable.
When a Jew looks at "The life of Brain" they see the analytics of the movie
When a christian looks at "The life of Brian" they see blasphemy
Depends on which side of the fence you stand
@@wendymitchell8245
She said that only to allude to the representation of messiness and different groups of the time. Shown in the movie
We may look back one day to realize that the problem in the usual discussion is the assumption that there existed separately A & B, when there were many fluid flavors of both across a spectrum of Mosaic Law to Pauline Antinomianism. It may well be that both (or even a multitude of) approaches to the religion of Yahweh were envisioned in the Bible from the very first.
Paul was not "antinomianism."
In fact, there is significant New Testament evidence that Paul, a Pharasee, followed Torah law.
Examples: He circumcised Timothy, shaved his head and took a vow, went to the synagogue on Sabbath, observed the Jewish Feasts, etc.
Paul taught that salvation could not and never did come through the law. He taught that the law was good.
"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.'
-Romans 7: 12
Paul stated in Acts that he still believed in the authority of the Law and the Prophets, so he was by no means an antinomian. Ppl assume that about him because they misread passages where he appears to teach against law and ignore/overlook the passages where he clearly teaches adherence to the Law or reinforces its authority.
Gal Gadot playing a scholar of rabbinic Judaism
Excellent presentation!
Thank you kindly!
Truly beneficial watching - the Great Divide one day.....will come to and end, even thought looks impossible! Baruch HaShem!
She is brilliant!
His simple question really does have a simple answer! Jesus "preached"/spoke his message to the Jews only. What happened to Jesus? Was Jesus crucified on the cross? So did the Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah? Or did the Jews reject Jesus at the the Messiah? What happened to the second Jewish temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD/CE? Why did the Jews end up outside of their homeland living among other people?
I was always under the impression that Paul pretty much invented Christianity as the people who actually knew Jesus were all still practicing Jews, but with a slightly new hermeneutic of Torah. This was all really interesting to hear how things developed through time.
Jesus was crucified for starting to teach Christianity. He was getting a I'm God thing going on.
At some point, discussion is fruitless. When you talk about Christianity as just a way of looking at "religion" you miss the point. Either Jesus is God, the Messiah or he's liar. Choose whom you will follow. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father, but through Me".
@ 5:52 >> I would highly suggest watching this movie by Monty Python, "The Life of Brian" ...
Prof Siegel has my admiration.
Moreover, though she refers us to that great work of art for academic purposes, that movie is a million laughs.
And, kudos to this Kedem channel. Excellent source of scholarship on "the academic study of the ancient near east."
Thank you, much appreciated!
Another thing I forgot to explain: A MAT means PENTAGRAM (fivehouse or five star) which you have to double for getting a tenside figure with a hexagram, a pentagram, but also a triangle which goes 'around the corner' since we have to deal with INTERFERENCE in language. The number SEVEN is helixing in EIGHT: ZEVEN-ACHT > ZEVENACHT > SEVEN EIGHT > SEVEN-NIGHT which comes from KNIGHT which means in Dutch kruisridders (> crusaders), who were not riding on a horse, but CROSSING the OCEAN with their SAILINGBOATS: ZEEVAARDERS > FARI-ZEEERS .... Not, it is again your turn, Michal ..
Thanks for posting
Our pleasure!
The day The Life of Brian is considered historically correct is coming near .....
...and Paul the space movie is now worth watching 👀 even more. G'day from Australia 🇦🇺. IMHO
Jesus was the son of Biggus Dickus Pantera ;)
@@peterfireflylund No...he was the son of Biggus Dickus van Morus son of bovis stercus. Ha ha . You put it well. Forgive my latin . I learnt it from Kromaggs. G'day from Australia mate 🇦🇺 .
Regarding the boiling excrement thing, it seems to be a response to Jesus making fun of the Pharisees by doing a playword on פ-ר-ש which is the same root of Pharisees and excrement (this is in the gospels, but many people do not understand this due to not having a deep understanding of Hebrew).
Regarding the play word of Pantera, as she mentioned - it is a modern claim, and the fact that it wasn't recognized to be that way in ancient times by native Greek speakers probability means that it is not correct. Also, there even is evidence of Pantera being used as a Jevvish name. It could be that Jesus was the son of Pantera, but that Pantera was a Jevv or Samaritan serving in the Roman army.
Can you elaborate on your statement
"a response to Jesus making fun of the Pharisees by doing a playword on פ-ר-ש which is the same root of Pharisees and excrement" not being familiar with Hebrew I am not sure about what you are trying to share.
Yes, is anyone able to say where in the New Testament it occurs?
@@whitepanties2751 See Matthew 15 : 10-12
Jesus spoke Aramaic, He only heard ancient Hebrew in the temple and understood it as the liturgical language. Ancient Hebrew differs from modern Hebrew and Ancient Aramaic. Matthew 15 v10-12 I very clear, Jesus is teaching that kosher food isn't what makes one unclean, it's vile language which makes one unclean. Today Samaritans still speak/use Ancient Hebrew.
@@SaintCharbelMiracleworker @Saint Charbel Miracleworker You're not coming up with anything new or original, you're just regurgitating things that have already been spoken and heard a thousand times. We know next to nothing on the historical Jesus and can only speculate based on what little we have, yet you speak as if you met him in person, which is absurd.
Explicit references to what language was spoken such as in Acts 26 : 14 say Hebrew explicitly, not Aramaic, and from sayings and other indicators, it is very likely that if Jesus existed, he spoke Hebrew.
There are implicit references in the text for Aramaic, but we don't know if that is just due to the way the text was written and passed down rather than reality.
The Greek text in the form we have today is not the same as the original Hebrew/Aramaic text, and even that is not the same as actual history and reality.
Fascinating. So glad I clicked in.
Great to hear, thank you!
The tenet of Christianity is that there is only one way; without one way, you no longer have Christianity. You can debate the validity of the claim. You can debate the meaning of the claim. But to deny the claim exists shows a profound misunderstanding of nature of the belief.
They separate when Jesus came with a new form of Judaism, a more modern way of living in the believe of only one God. Jesus departed from many tradition and nonsense of Judaism. For example when a woman was about to be killed for adultery, Jesus pardoned her. That was again the mosaic law that said she most suffer a horrible death.
Read the story again. Jesus is ENDORSING the death penalty (John 8:1-12). Deuteronomy 17:7 calls for the witnesses to cast the first stone. The guilt, in the event the accused was falsely convicted, falls on the one who testifies as witness to the crime, instead of on the community. Perjury required the liar to receive the punishment the person falsely accused would have received (Deuteronomy 19:16-19). He's telling the Pharisees, who have brought this woman they claim was caught in the act of adultery into the Temple court to trap him, that if they've got the goods and their witness(es) have clean hands, go ahead and execute her.
Read John 7 for the setup. The Pharisee leaders were upset with the Temple police because they hadn't arrested Jesus, so they devised a trap. Chapter 7 shows a lot of controversy swirling around Jesus with a lot of speculation about who he was. Some even wanted to kill him. The Pharisees dismissed him and his Galillean followers as a bunch of rubes who didn't know the Law. They were calling them the ancient equivalent of today's deplorables, so the Pharisees set out to prove it and, at a minimum, hold Jesus up to ridicule and show him to be a false or uneducated Torah teacher whose followers would then abandon him.
There are several reasons I believe the text shows the woman was not an adulteress in fact. First, if she had been caught doing this crime, by what authority do Pharisees drag her off as an exhibit in their debate with this Galillean teacher instead of taking her to authorities who can administer her punishment? Second, how do you bring an impure woman -- ritually impure because of recent sexual activity and morally and legally impure because of her adultery -- into the Temple precinct? Sexual intercourse rendered the man and woman unclean until evening (Leviticus 15:18). Surrounding the Temple Mount today are remains of mikvahs -- ritual bathing pools that all were required to enter to attain ritual purity before ascending the Mount . That couldn't be bypassed. Third, when the Pharisees -- defeated by Jesus -- depart, they leave this allegedly guilty woman behind. The point of their trap had been to show that Jesus would not uphold the Law. The Pharisees were scrupulous about keeping the Law, and we're supposed to believe they suddenly lost interest in seeing that the Law's requirements were carried out with this woman they claimed was caught in the act?
Nope -- the woman was a shill. She was part of the Pharisees' plot to entrap Jesus. Their scheme fell apart when Jesus called their bluff by following the Law precisely when he told them to have their witness(es) execute her. They weren't prepared to do that -- she was innocent of the false charge and executing her would have made them subject to the same death penalty. So, caught in their own trap, they filed off. Note the fact their order of departure was from eldest to youngest, showing that this was an organized drill.
So, now it's just the woman and Jesus (plus the crowd he was teaching), and he asks where are her accusers. There are none, she replies. Once again, Jesus -- Torah faithful -- tells her he doesn't condemn her. Without witnesses willing to back up their testimony by casting the first stone at the potential cost of their own life, no accusation remained against the woman. There was nothing to adjudicate ... except her participation in the Pharisee's fraudulent scheme. That was the sin Jesus told her to not do again.
If that's your takeaway of Christ's intentions, then you need to read what He says in Matt. 5:17 that no one was to even think that He came to oppose Moses. Christ offering the woman an out on account of the religions leaders trying to trap Him wasn't the same as Him opposing Moses, which is why He told her not to sin any more. She was 100% guilty, but He didn't allow them to use it against Him.
@@JonJaeden You need to be honest. Tell the world of your secret discover of time traveling. That is the real reason you know the woman was part of the trap for Jesus. You went back to that moment in time. You were there!!!!!!
@@johndefalco7454 One could wish that was possible. Alas, we're stuck with having to actually read the story and weigh all the evidence. You might want to try it.
I can tell you exactly where Christianity and Judaism separated….it happened right where the Jewish leaders decided that Jesus did not meet with their expectations of a conqueror that would defeat the Romans, even though He had fulfilled all of the old testament prophecies. There were was only a few like Nicodemus who sought him out, because they knew indeed who he was. The rest saw him as a threat to their prestige and power.
The Sanhedrin belongs to zdukim . This is very important to understand. Prophecies not relevant here at all.
@@KEDEMChannel Well since they're God's prophecies, they're relevant to everyone in creation......whether or not they feel that they are relevant.
@@arthouston7361 we respect your believes 👍
@@KEDEMChannel I think more importantly we need to respect the fact that God had a plan, and knew exactly what would happen when the messiah fulfilled the prophecies and presented himself to the leadership. Remember all of the times that they were referred to as a "stiff- necked people," meaning that they did not find the ability in themselves to bow their head. They strayed from God like lost sheep, and were brought back and strayed again, and were brought back and strayed again...... and this is because they are human. When God describes the nation of Israel as his chosen people, what often does not get asked is, "chosen for what?"...and one of those reasons is to show us all that we are caught in a trap of sin. Our messiah is the only way to escape that sin, because there is no good work... no observation of feasts or holy days...or respect for hundreds of laws.... that is capable of taking away our sin. Instead, the blood on the lentels during passover came from a spotless lamb, which is a vision of the future for the shed blood of the Messiah..... the only sacrifice that can permanently remove and forgive our sin. Just as God provided Abraham with a sacrifice, be also provided a sacrifice for us.
Exactly. Years of scholarship are fruitless without this simple understanding. Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism are not brothers, they are diametrically opposed.
Very interesting overview. Also looking at early christiannities that were very different from each other also reveals much abiut the connections and what was retained from judaisms etc.
Thank you so much for the unbiased presentation of this completed historical reality!
Glad it was helpful!
I thought it’s obvious to everyone who has ever read Paul’s epistles. It’s Paul that took out very Jewish teaching of Jesus and converted them to Rome (ergo paganism). Virgin births, incarnation of divine into a human, ritualistic cannibalism and human sacrifice, all exist in paganism but never in Judaism.
First time I've heard this and it rings true.
You cannot logically square this false assumption with Paul plainly stating in Rom. 3:31 that all of the apostles were upholding the authority of the law. This would naturally include himself. You also cannot reconcile this false assumption with him stating in Eph. 4:17-19 where he also plainly explains why Christians are not supposed to live like Gentiles.
"When did they actually separate?"
When Jesus came, and some rejected him, and others followed him.
Exactly right!
that's belief, not scholarship. and she's a scholar. she wasn't interviewed to preach
@@robertsoslow733 Even scholars can see, that one religion that follows Jesus (belief), and another that does not, are, well.. separate!
absolutely thrilling to listen to this scholar.
Thank you!
Very interesting! Thank you
Glad you liked it!
Thank you for this wonderful conversation. Funny fact: In the German Rhine Area, we have the tomb of the Roman soldier Panthera. We Catholics from the Rhine Area are famous for laughing at ourselves. We say: We have the Roman tomb stone of the father of Jesus. So, two stories might have interchanged with another. Let's imagine the story of a Roman soldier Panthera who was a womanizer. And in the other hand the polemic intention to ridicule Mary, the virgin (parthenos) with the similar sounding name Panthera, "She also had something with this Panthera guy." In oder to live in peace together, let's have a bit of fun together. Shalom.
Personally I think it really starts to seperate once the questioning of Jesus's resurrection takes him from an exalted christology to an incarnate christology. There is plenty of information about heretical Christians adding ongoing developments throught the 1st and 2nd century and over time you see Christianty drifting away from Jewish roots.
thanks for your interest and study michal 😁
Really great talk. At about 16 minutes in you mention stories of Jesus being a student of the rabbis...can you cite the tractate references?
Sanhedrin 107b
However note that the Jewish sage in the story lived 200 years before Jesus, so the details don't add up.
The New Testament in Acts chapter 15 records the parting of ways.
This Paul tells us occurred 14 years after his conversion, around 48/49AD.
This is confirmed by secular history when Emperor Nero expelled Jews from Rome in 49/50AD because of internal fighting amongst themselves was causing havoc in Rome.
Up until this time period, Christianity as an independent religion from Judaism didn't exist.
Christians regarded themselves and were regarded by others as a Jewish Messianic Pharisee sect.
All gentile converts to early Christianity had to undergo regular Jewish conversion.
Thus the fighting in Rome within the Jewish community, was either between Messianic Christian Jews and non Messianic Jews, or between followers of Paul and the Messianic Christian Judaizers. All of whom the Roman government classified as Jews.
The confusion of later evidence of Jewish/Christian cooperation, is because there were two forms of Christianity until the collapse of Rome in the 5th century.
The one group, the Ebonites, followed Jewish customs, Paul refers to them as Judaizers, the second group according to Acts 15, stopped following Jewish customs and consistent mainly of gentile converts to Christianity.
The first group demanded that pagan gentiles wishing to follow Jesus had to convert to Judaism and follow Jewish customs and law.
The second group did not demand this of pagan gentile converts to Christianity.
Obviously the second group, the Acts 15 group, multiplied faster and survived the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century.
The Judaizer Ebonites of Rome were probably descendants of refugees that fled Israel after the Bar Kochbar rebellion of 134-136AD, as the New Testament places them like the Sadducees as living in Jerusalem near the Temple. 1Cor. 16:3.
They probably didn't have have many communities in the rest of the Roman Empire, as it seems that the Acts 15 group following Paul were the most active as missionaries to the gentiles, and became the majority group.
that's belief, not scholarship. and she's a scholar
@@robertsoslow733 what is belief? Everything I wrote is historical fact.
She's a scholar, I'm a scholar, you are a scholar, we all are scholars.
The question is which scholar is using facts to explain their answer and which is using suppositions and conjecture?
If there is something I wrote that you need a deeper explanation for, ask.
@@broz1488 Your source is your Bible. A scientist, for example, would never use that as a source text. The Bible was written by many different people with different opinions over a long period of time. So, how can it be used as fact? And please understand that I DO respect your beliefs. It just that belief and fact are different.
@@robertsoslow733 the Bible can be used as a factual document on its own merit.
Every historical event recorded in the Bible has been verified by archeology.
Every scientific claim made by the Bible has been verified by science.
Every medical statement made by the Bible has been verified by medical science.
There is no book written by man more accurate than the Bible.
If the Bible says up and another book says down, science will prove the Bible correct.
The Bible has proven itself to be so accurate, that every theory of man can be run past the Bible to be verified it as true or false.
You would think by now that people would get over their God phobias and hangups, and recognize the Bible for the litmus test for truth that it is.
@@broz1488 Did you think she based her arguments on suppoaition and conjecture? Have you read the same texts so that you can determine how strong those sources were? I didn't, but I'm curious about you.
The Jews cannot accept the Christian interpretation of the Old Testament. For Christians Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy.
ABSURD, THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH/STATE, STOLE A RELIGION CALLED JUDAISM, USED A SAMARITAN/BENJAMITE/GENTILE,/APOSTLE NAMED PAUL, ROMANS 11:1..AND HIS LETTER'S..TO START A GREECO/ROMAN STATE CHURCH, WHICH?????..THEN HAD A SCHISM OF PROTESTANT FOLLOWERS, UNDER ANOTHER LEADER, LUTHER/CALVIN, TO START A PROTESTANT REVOLT/REFORMATION,...THESE PROTESTANT'S..THEN BROKE OFF TO START 40,000 DIFFERENT BLENDS, CULTS, CLICKS, GROUPS..PENTECOSTAL, APOSTOLIC, BAPTIST, LUTHERAN, PRESBYTERIAN, 7TH DAY ADVENTIST, DUTCH REFORM, AMISH, JW, MORMONS. METHODICAL, ETC..WITH EACH OF THESE RELIGIOUS CLUBS, HAVING THEIR OWN SET OF RULES, TULIPS, HOT/COLD, ON/OFF,..PRE TRIB, MID TRIB, POST TRIBULATION, NO TRIBULATION, ALL ARE JUST A CORRUPTION OF JUDAISM, HOLY BIBLE THE TaNakh, AND ITS SACRED SCRIPTURE'S A DAMNATION, TO ABBA SHULI HU'MELECJ HA'OLAM HA'KADOSH BARUCH...return to the Father God, Elohim, REPENT of the wickedness, you've inherited lies, grab the Arm of a Jew. and ask him to teach you the TRUTH!!!
The imperialistic judean oligarchs cant accept the empowering teachings of Yashua Adonai Immanuel from the Aegean culture.
Jesus Christ never existed, he was an invention of Paul.
There was a man Yeshu_ of Nazara (as found in the Q source), an itenerate Jewish prosylite of Johanan the immerser who died and Yeshu took partial control of his movement.
What you see as Christ in the new testament is full of christological contradictions that grew over time. Paul thought Jesus gained Messianic status through his crucifixion, and that he had a new form 'divine breath'. All this crap about emuculate conception or the logos came a century or so later.
Read More, study more.
@@Darisiabgal7573 Learn to spell more. Orthography.
The fulfillment was reversed engineered.. so to speak
Learnt a good deal about the divergence between Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity. Also learnt about the breakdown in relationships between the two communities, which gave rise to Christian antisemitism.
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!
Christian anti-semitism was generated by Judaic anti-Christian bigotry, something nobody is willing to talk about
Thank you . A great discussion.
Our pleasure!
As good an example of applied historiography as I've heard. The professor's recognition of complexity and willingness to wade through it to a few highlights, to find definition in those and with an almost childlike enthusiasm, to welcome the advances, and not despise not the problems is intellectual maturity itself.
I came here to get an understanding of another issue: why do American evangelicals and other Protestants find the practice of Christianity in the first three centuries CE closer to Christian purity than any other? After viewing the video, I'm not much closer to understanding that. But I am fascinated that it is the period when Judaism and Christianity retained some significant ties. What I did learn, though, is very exciting.
Thank you.
Thank you very much 🙏
17:11 we were to harsh ? understatement of the century
I always viewed Christianity as Judaism “Lite” in the same way Protestantism is Catholic “Lite.” Basically the same, but with different hats. Ultimately, the separations had more to do with politics and power than any theological fundamentals.
Very interesting talk which describes lots of individual cases from sources trying to make sense of how the “split” occurred between Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism. May I suggest to take this (bottom up) approach and weave it (or combine it with Prof. Joseph Klausner (top down) approach as described in his “From Jesus To Paul” 2 volume books (1935 1940) ? Prof. Joseph Klausner was one of three candidates to become Israel first President. The other two candidates were Prof. Albert Einstein and Prof. Haim Witzmann. Or if you can comment on such approach. Thank you !