Hey, it's me! the yellow guy. (do I defend the DR because my profile picture kinda looks like it?) Anyway, this rework idea is really cool. While i would HATE losing the speed boost, I LOVE all forms of trickery and illusion, so i would actually be more than ok with this rework. i actually think the main problem with the dead ringer is the loud decloak. it simply discourages stealth, and therefore discourges people from using it to actually TRICK the enemy. why should i try to fool them when theyll just hear my decloak anyway? not to mention feign deaths are unconvincing in most circumstances do to kill count not going up, ammo boxes not giving ammo, not playing the killsound on a feigned death, and so on. so it kind of only works for distraction plays, tanking damage, or being like me and abusing the speed boost to draw players away from the objective while shooting them with the letranger to recharge it (so much fun)
Yeah if this was the actual deadringer, I'd love it, but for it to work Valve would have to fix the things that give away that the death is fake (kilcount, killsound, etc) Great video btw!
On the trolldier animation, I noticed he was actually swinging the shovel instead of just holding it the entire animation. Neat little detail, pointed it out so it doesn't feel unnoticed.
I like the idea that the cloak and feign are different bars. Of all of the proposed fixes I have heard since I started playing (about two years ago) that is a first. And everything else is pretty solid too. Hoping that valve will see this because you obviously put some thought into this and I genuinely think it would be a good fix.
I would suggest for testing out the dead ringer, it might be worth it to reach out to Shounic. He’s currently in the middle of testing all kinds of player theories with his 100 player server, and might like the idea. Granted you probably won’t get an answer, it’s still worth a shot.
Separating the cloak and feign meter is a really cool concept and I thought of an interesting way to make it work without a wall of text. Spy's weapon slots each serve a single purpose Gun is for dueling, knife assassination, sapper is espionage, watch is stealth, and the disguise kit was for deception The dead ringer in its current state is not really a stealth tool but instead of tool for deception that isn't great at deception What if the dead ringer was an alternative to the disguise kit You have an invis watch to cloak on demand and then manually switch to the dead ringer to feign So you are sacrificing a tool for deception in the disguise kit in order to deceive with the dead ringer
Hey Jonto, I have an idea that instead hold to active Feign dead, using "R" key is much more reliable. Take a look at the Disguise kit, if press "R" or "-" you will change to team disguise. Same go with the rework dead ringer, but when change to Feign dead, you can still hold it form instead press R every time pull out the dead ringer, and the speedbost will still hold it but abit slower
this is a good idea, but i dont think you thought about its interaction with other things; if you have the option to arm it once you pull it out with m2 that presents a problem due to the fact that you would've already been cloaked, which you could solve by just forcing decloak though i think that's a bit clunky and unintuitive (moreso than what he suggested in the video). alternatively if you suggest for it to be separate from having the watch out at all, if you have your revolver out and dont use automatic reload (like a psychopath, but that still has to be accounted for, especially on spy for the disguised reloads) you simply dont have a button to reload anymore, which obviously couldnt work
I think a better alternative to the speed debuff after exiting the feign would be taking a lot longer to decloak, meaning you will be visible the whole decloak and you won't be able to do anything until it's done
This is a really interesting idea and I'd love to see it actually playtested to see how well it would work in the context of a full game! One thing I would warn about, however, is that many people don't have the finger strength or dexterity to utilize "click and continuously hold button" functions. Young children, the elderly, and disabled people can have a lot of trouble continuously holding down buttons. So a lot of games will allow for a "click to trigger the holding-button-down state, click again to deactivate" option in the settings. Including TF2 itself, btw! This is an available option for the Medigun beam. So I think having separate functions for clicking and holding the same button is not the best idea, for accessibility's sake. Said functions would better be delagated to different buttons, at least by default.
Perhaps, taking a hint from the medic's Vaccinator, the *[reload]* key with the Dead Ringer out could activate the normal cloak, while simply having the Dead Ringer out while uncloaked would activate feign death when taking damage. While invisible, the feign death ability is unusable, which might further emphasize good positioning and movement on the spy's behalf. *_And now I shall rant about game mechanics._* I myself would not reduce the cloak duration for normal cloaking, but keep the reduced cloak from ammo packs, or perhaps keep the _no cloak from ammo packs_ restriction of the existing Dead Ringer. I would also treat the *feign* meter _specifically_ as an indicator for how much invincibility (or damage resistance, or speed boost) time the spy has while *"feign cloaked"* upon activating the feign death. *To explain:* - The *feign* meter would recharge slowly, unaltered by other mechanics, and would either be refilled by resupply cabinets, or would need to start at 0 charge to circumvent changing class to refill it. - On feign death activation, a *"feign cloak"* will be activated as the *cloak* meter quickly drains. During *feign cloak* the spy is giving whatever buffs deemed appropriate; perhaps increased movement speed, increased damage resistance, complete damage invulnerability, or maybe speed or damage resistance proportional to the *feign* meter itself (stat bonus going from 100% to 0% as the *feign* meter does). - When the *feign* meter is fully drained, the *feign cloak* is converted into normal cloak; the spy's stats would revert to normal and the *cloak* meter would start draining as usual for normal cloaking (with the *cloak* meter having been replenished at the beginning of feign death, thus guaranteeing a full *cloak* meter at this point). Because this new Dead Ringer would fully replenish the spy's *cloak* meter on feign death activation, the feign death mechanic would be used _instead of ammo packs_ for regenerating cloak, particularly if this new Dead Ringer would retain the current version's _no cloak on ammo pickup._ Having a separate *feign* meter from the *cloak* meter is nice for keeping the feign death ability unaffected by the L'Etranger's cloak filling mechanic, while keeping the gun useful alongside the Dead Ringer.
I like the idea. It'd also work better with one of the ideas I had for buffing the Red Tape Recorder. Essentially, what if the Red Tape increased your cloak regen rate and slowed your cloak drain rate whilst it's sapping a building? Admittedly, this concept could probably be made into it's own sapper, but it's an interaction that I would like all-the-same. Another rework idea I had for the Tape would be to give it a "heads" style of mechanic, where successfully de-leveling a building would give you a charge which you could use. I'm unsure exactly what it could be used for currently, but one idea I had was to let you consume the charges to upgrade friendly engineer buildings (though I don't know how balanced that would be, and it'd also be awkward to actually utilize).
What if it was like a weird bazaar bargain type sapper, where it still de-levels buildings slowly, but every level sapped (or whole building destroyed) gives it a sap speed boost, to de-level even faster. The levels would be lost on death and have a hard limit like heads, plus it would focus the player on a 'survival and sabotage' mindset. It's hard to think of a different kind of boon for sapping though, as the sapper itself is only going to be useful with an engi on the enemy team, so I figured it would be best to keep the buff contained to just sapping.
hmm, an idea that popped in my head from seeing your idea, place on friendly buildings. The sapper goes on a thirty second cooldown, and will speed up build rate of the building by 25%. When the sapper does come off cooldown, the friendly placed one breaks and either furthers upgrade progress by 100 metal, or breaks off into a medium ammo kit.
I would try using the disguise as well. Maybe, instead of arming the Feign with a button, you instead can only use it while disguised. So that, whenever you disguise, your "cloak" turns into "feign". Maybe then also make it be able to recharge using Ammo packs, but have it only ever gain the ammo of a small pack, regardless on what type you're picking up. To balance the time you need to wait for a disguise out, maybe make the roar on declaration a little more silent and keep the speedboost. This version would have some good synergy with the YER. Also, maybe in order to synergies with it a little, have the Spycicle not lose your disguise on swing when you hits nothing. This way, until the moment you get the backstab or at least damage the opponent, you can still peace out. Maybe also, while wearing enemy disguises using the dead ringer, why not have teammates by able to trigger it with their shots? You could give the one who triggered it some health back, similar to what happens when a pyro extinguishes a burning teammate! Tell me what you think, also, cool video
Another idea. I’ve been holding onto this one for a while. When the dead ringer is activated, take the current respawn timer of your team and show the spy as “dead” for that time. Additionally, while “dead”, backstabs don’t show in the kill feed. I think that would make it easier for the spy to be “dead” instead of just staring at the kill feed or the scoreboard to see if they’re really out or not.
heres a simple and easy fix: if you hold the dead ringer out for too long, it drains itself rapidly, rewarding both who treat the dead ringer as a parry, and those who use it was a actual disguise tool by making it a tool fully about prediction your opponent, punishing those who spam it with less time to flee.
how would that actually work tho, like whats two long? is it gonna cause spys to do anything other than put it away for a moment. Also does that allow feigning at below max meter?
@@lopsidedpotato you basically get half a second before it starts to drain cloak away, and while you do still feign, the period of time to move about and do things is shortened the longer you had it out. IF you really wanted to embed the idea of reading when your right about to get hurt, maybe putting away the watch without getting hurt will also drain some portion of your cloak, or pulling out the watch is quick but withdrawing it is super sluggish, punishing you for failing a read, same idea as the half zatoichi of commiting to your weapons utility.
@@lopsidedpotato the idea is that the watch would take more to commit to it for all the good things it already does, and by making it passively drain cloak with how long you hold it out to avoid damage, it punishes spamming
Another idea would be that activating it makes you feign death after a short delay whether you received damage or not ; this would allow it to function more like other watches (you can use it as a stealth tool without needing to receive damage), and make you have to think more about when to use it.
The modern design philosophy of the DR, demonstrated by its most recent balance changes, is it rewards spies for not needing invincibility to get into position for a backstab, and in return it gives the spy an easy way to escape after making a play, a thing that neither of the other two watches are terribly good at compared to the DR. *That being said* I do like your idea of the arming mechanic with the DR. With this, once the spy arms the dead ringer, the feign meter for the DR is immediately drained by half rather than on activation. That way the spy has a commitment for drawing the dead ringer as a “I want out”, rather than holding the thing any time you’re not attacking. You can still put the thing away after arming it, but that means you still have to wait for it to recharge, and you’re now playing spy without a watch.
I really like this idea, the idea of arming the Dead Ringer is an interesting concept. I've had a few ideas for Dead Ringer reworks after watching both videos back to back among your other videos. One idea would be that it will no longer require you to hold it out to as it will now automatically activate by default. However it will only trigger if you take a hit that would have killed you, leaving you at critically low HP. I'm thinking maybe it either leaves you at like 15 Health by default but lower when combined with the Big Earner or Conniver's Kunai due to them reducing Spy's maximum health (maybe leaves you at 5 HP and 1 HP respectively). Of course the cloak would be slightly buffed to give the Spy a fair chance at escape. Perhaps extending the time to a maximum of maybe 12 seconds with maybe 5 seconds of complete invulnerability to all forms damage, immunity to all status effects, and either a slightly nerfed speed boost or no speed boost at all. The decloak would also be quieter, maybe a little louder than the Invis Watch decloak but difficult to hear when there's so many sounds at once) However while you can decloak before the maximum time expires, you won't be able to until after those initial 5 seconds have passed. Lastly the Dead Ringer would also have a longer cooldown to make up for it's strengths which still cannot he sped up with ammo packs (preventing Spies from spamming this willy nilly and instead encourages them to find a good hiding spot away from the fight or to hide in plain sight wirh their disguises). This version of the Dead Ringer would encourage Spies to rely more on using their disguise kit smartly and acting or hiding from the action without on demand invisibility, making the Dead Ringer more of a riskier tool in return for being an incredibly useful escape option despite how easy you are to kill once it's activated. An alternative but less interesting concept is that it works the same as it does currently but instead takes a decent amount of your health. Like maybe like 40-60% relative to your maximum health to make less spammable? If your current health pool is below that required health value though, you would be unable to fake your death and die for real. Though to mess with the enemies it will make it seem like you did actually fake your death with it, just to make it harder for enemies (besides other Spies and Medics with the Solemn Vow) to tell if you are actually dead or still out there and ready to strike at a moments notice, just to instill some paranoia in them and potentially make them waste their time Spychecking the immediate area.
Personally I like the speed buff from the dead ringer and when combined with the spycicle you get a perfect gun spy build. I don't care if it's not the normal or intended way to play Spy. Gun spy is so much fun and it's pretty balanced.
That is an interesting idea. I once proposed having the watch work like a regular Invis Watch, but with a 1 second delay before the manual cloak, where if you get damaged, THEN the feign works. Effectively you have to perfectly parry the attack. Also to make it harder to abuse, make all the Supercloak benefits (afterburn immunity wich I'd buff to full debuff immunity, additional cloak resistance, no cloak blinks) only apply to attacks from the player that triggered the feign. Against everyone else you don't get any benefits. Another thing I would do is remove these initial 50% loss in cloak (but keeping the duration at 8 seconds) to fix the issues with l'Etranger not properly extending the cloak, as well as eliminating an exploit that can be done in certain maps where you can take damage in spawn and then use the resupply cabinet to get 16 seconds of cloak. Instead I'd make the cloak drain to zero on decloak like it used to, and make the decloak sound volume depend on the remaining cloak. I'd also let it recharge from ammo packs cloaked and uncloaked but with a 75% penalty. The speed boost is my favorite part of the watch, but since I run the Big Earner with it anyway, I doubt I'd miss it THAT much. So long as I can keep disguising as a friendly Medic to draw enemy fire away from my teammates, I'm good.
I think the idea that the Dead ringer with this fix becomes the survivability watch, C&D is the stealth watch, and stock is the middle ground. Honestly, i think a fourth watch to take the trickery/illusion spot for spy would be really cool. Just need to come up with a way where it doesn't feel Bs to fight.
A bit off topic, but how I see the DR Kunai is how I see the Jarate Bushwacka. On their own, Jarate and Bushwaka are actually pretty well balanced. Jarate can be a way to find spies, extinguish fires, and support your team. The Bushwaka is more of an offensive weapon for Sniper, paired well with a Buff Banner or Cleaners Carbine. But the Jarate+Bushwaka combo is what more people have issues with. Good video tho!
Loving your stuff, since I saw your video on the deadringer, I've also been thinking about a fix and I wanted to share my idea First, here are the problems with the dead ringer, as I see them 1. It can be used with a lack of intention 2. It gives a too strong buff it's not really supposed to So let's tackle the first problem, and to do that, we will divide 'damage' into 6 categories, melee, which includes fall damage, fire, explosives, jaraty, knockback, and bullets, which is anything else, now, when you pull up the deadringer, you need to pick which damage you are going to 'die' too, (except jaraty, that's a hard counter) it doesn't go off for any other type of damage. Additionally, if you don't 'die' within 3 seconds of it's activation, it resets, and the clock meeter empties Since we now know what damage the player is taking, we can get rid of that overpowered general buff, and give a situationally stronger, but balanced buff, which also means if your opponent doesn't buy your death, they can counter you by switching weapons, you could probably do a better job at these buffs then me, but here's my go, melee, complete negates the activating hit, and allows you to not collide with the enemy for the next 3 secobds, but you take 2x damage from all sources, and if those 3 seconds end in a player, you get telefraged, bullets works as it does now, but only for bullets, fire makes you immune to fire and afterburn for 5 seconds, explosives gives you 90% reduction against exclusives, and 50% against bullets, for 3 seconds, but reduces you movement speed to 25%, knockback means you don't take that knockback
I would love to use the DR for it's intended purpose Like On the rare occasion where someone falls for the feign and taunt I just love to imagine the look on their face as they hear the uncloak sound right behind them while they can do nothing
I absolutely love the idea of tapping the button to have one function then holding it for another (probably cause I play Ken and Terry in Smash who are just like that lol)
I like your idea to fix it! Although I would change a few things if it were up to me: 1. Make feign activated by pressing reload + right click rather than holding it down. This will make it more snappy and easier to use 2. Keep the speed boost, but make it disappear on decloaking. Because being caught out decloaking is so punishing in this concept, the speed boost will help you get into position easier, while also not enabling abuse because it disappears upon decloaking.
4:35 I actually like the Dead Ringer decloak sound because it's so unique, so instead of a loud ass "roar on decloak" where it alerts everyone nearby, it'd be cool that the "in-game canon explanation" for the sound effect is actually the watch draining it's cloak meter completely when decloaking from feign.
I actually really like this idea. One of the biggest issues I had with the Deadringer was its inability to get me into position without brute-forcing the feign, so a secondary timer would help keep that.
I do like splitting Cloak and Feign into two things, but may I suggest having "arming" the Dead Ringer to be Middle Mouse button instead of holding right click? Largely cuz I can see it being more finicky than intended and making it a separate button would fix that. Otherwise I think its something worth testing.
I’ve had a dumb idea for a spy watch. Best name I got for it is “Blinker”. While active, you turn invisible instantly, then it turns off for 3 seconds (instant uncloak) and repeat.
Note that I'm only an occasional spy and don't use the dead ringer at all, but one idea I had for a "fix" while keeping the same concept is simply scaling the damage resistance, speed boost, and maybe even cloak duration with how much health you're missing opon cloaking, kinda like the escape plan. The lower your health, the bigger your reward. It rewards not running from a fight at 121 HP but making an actually somewhat credible fake death.
That's a really cool idea! I finally got a second Dead Ringer yesterday (the first one was turned into a L'etranger) and I'd love for it to have Manual Cloak and a lowered Decloak sound When I tried using it yesterday I just couldn't stealth, but maybe that's just my inexperience with it
My change of the dead ringer would be istead of keeping overheal after a backstab (Conniver's Kunai) or overheal from a other source you lose it after a fake death go back to your normal health pool.
with the dead ringer in its current state you CAN disguise as an ally, And get shot so you can get past enemy lines, And THEN disguising as an enemy. (but I'm not a spy main so this might be a bad strat idk)
Yeah, disguising is usually so that if someone sees you out if the corner of their eye, they don’t immediately shoot you for being the wrong team color.
I would say one small ergonomic change is make the feign arming the MOUSE3 button, like Medic’s MvM shield. This would just eliminate any possible trip up from trying to cloak normally versus arming feign
Spy is already the weakest class people who complain about him just $uck. Regarding Dead Ringer, once upon a time it gave no speed boost nor its cloak meter was depleted by taking damage. When activated it just gave you 90% damage reduction during feign death (YES you could survive backstab with it; btw hit from backstab in feign death also used to give you some ungodly push almost like from x2 jump). During that era THE meta loadout for the Spy was Dead Ringer + L'Etranger + Spycicle because that made the Spy almost unkillable (Spycicle was also nerfed heavily since than). Then Valve started messing with balance and eventually we ended up with this. Regarding usage, I for example DO use Dead Ringer to feign death when coming from spawn disguised as my teammates in order to sneak behind the enemy (usually to stab the Snipers). This gameplay however is more suited for payload and attack/defense mode than for more chaotic koth and 5CPs. In such mode everybody is spychecked always and everybody is spread around the map so really getting kills without having a speed boost is much more unlikely.
I once tried to design a couple Spy watches that would send the Spy in question *back in time* when they were used. Even aside from being nightmarish to balance, just the plain technical implementation would have been a major problem.
I think if the Dead Ringer were to be changed to encourage Spies to actually fake their own death with it, I'd prefer something like the great Equalizer Split where we get one weapon that's more deception-focused like your suggestion and one that functions closer to the original and enables more aggressive Spy play (and the entire Gun Spy playstyle)
I proposed some time ago maybe a Gunslinger-esque PDA replacement for Spy. It's a monocle, but by equipping it the revolvers base damage is increased from 40 to 50 or maybe more, the bullet spread is reduced, and damage fall-off is reduced, so max falloff is 30, not 20. Maybe +25 max health on wearer. At the cost of not being able to cloak at all. No feign death, no invisibility. Maybe you lose the ability to disguise too. Also if you use this with the ambi you can do headshots from across the map again.
@@mariustan9275 I think being able to escape with the Dead Ringer and use disguises to throw off your hitbox/improve the Enforcer is a core part of what makes playing Gun Spy so fun for me.
one thing i would propose is giving the watch the equaliser treatment, spiltting the watch into two different categories. one being the fix suggested, focusing on making the lie seem as true as possible, and keeping the resistances, and another that focuses on that sweet speed spy mains love. one watch i would suggest for this, works similarly to the dead ringer of today, only triggering if taking damage from any source, but as oppesed to dropping a fake corpse, it cloaks the spy instantly while leaving smoke behind, as well as the spy chuckling as the watch activates. the watch would only give a 20% intitial damage resistance to try and safeguard against quickscopes, making the activation somewhat reliable (scince its not), but otherwise it gains no resistance, save for not being able to shimmer for the first second, giving you a quick chance to slip away from the heavy with his minigun crosshair taped to you. and thats all the getaway tools you get. you'd still be easy to kill by amost classes with good aim, but youre given a chance to evade fire if you see it coming, letting you reposition, retreat or reangage.
its more then possible with Vscript, Vscript allows for really anything to be done at the cost of it only done on that map, including entire new weapons as seen with the Zombie survival mode, yea sure the Zombies base attack is just stock melee, but its effectively a melee reskin exclusive to that game mode Vscript allows for people to add in any custom content they want, but its restricted to only that map that has the Vscript code
I'd like to add that while you're holding right click to feign, you should still be able to attack with left click until you actually drop "dead" and cloak away. That way it looks even more convincingly like you're trying to escape while making a last-ditch effort to kill your attacker rather than just trigger the Dead Ringer like a knob.
The dead ringer should just be an alternate way of evoking the cloak. Every mechanic that would make being deceptive required for running the dead ringer is *already* implemented in the cloak. If I were to redesign it, it would work like this. On cloak, the C&D will activate a countdown. Cloak will not replenish during this countdown. If the countdown is interrupted by the spy, they cannot cloak again until a second has passed. Spies can use their weapons while the countdown is active. When the spy take damage it will feign their death. A feigned death will be completely indistinguishable from a real death (shows up in kill counts, shows up in the kill ticker, dropping ammo, etc...). If the countdown elapsed naturally then the spy will simply cloak. On de-cloak, set the spy's speed to 77% (the speed of a Heavy) for 2 seconds. That's it, most of that text is just describing the mechanic, but cloak recharge, ammo pack pickup, duration, flashing when damaged while cloaked is all retained. (I omitted the current downside of needing to be fully replenished to cloak again as the speed penalty would be enough punishment for using it sub-optimally) I would love to see something like this in effect. I decided to omit any damage resistances as well or a mechanic that would leave the spy with 1 hp if they took lethal damage. I would want to play test to see if it's worth doing or if people start using it as a get out of bad positioning free card. Maybe turning off flicker for the first second might be more than enough?
I never got why ppl want to nerf Spy unlocks when all but one are allowed in competitive (DB being only banned in only Highlander for only it's trait of farming crits from teleporters, and yet modt DB rebalances ignore crits from buildings stat and make it worse Amby like replacing crits with minicrits) And it's not like I only play Scout, I played tons of classes(can't decide on the main) and I never experienced any frustration from fighting amby or dr or especially DB. DR was allowed, I think in a l l it's state(super armor, speed boost, pre last nerf state)in competitive because, it's literally just survivability tool, a tool spy crucially needs to be even remotely viable after getting one med pick since without DR, he insta dies(and even then it wasn't used always) It's like community acknowledges that Spy is too weak since he can only ideally get 1 pick, Valve introduces new toys to either improve his survivability or make him atleast 1v1 others somewhat, and all are hated. Heck, even KUNAI is getting hate now because some guy named Fishonastick made an "expose" video about how "op" kunai is. Ngl if my favourite classes to play got so much hate for unlocks that aren't even remotely OP, I'd lose my God damn mind, can't imagine how Spy and Pyro mains feel 😅
Taking longer to arm the dr is a good concept cause it’s harder to use it as an escape tool, the other changes make it a better stealth tool too, but not as good as stock or c&d
This one is alright... With slight adjustment , the idea of both having clock(reduced duration) and feigned is great and synergized . You A make normal clock play with half the resources , B "act" ran out of clock and punished by enemy then feigned refresh clock and relocate . Problem being not so agree on main downside/punishment were slow down (it might get strafe negated) and discouraged to go for critical pick . Proposed another way feign work , hold to active , no dr no speed boost but rather only feigned when hp "reaches 0hp" and left with 1hp(or half current if it's too harsh) feign with perfectly clocked Uber (invincibility) for 3sec then the rest 3sec normal clock , no cosmic loud declock(volune down a lot) you are always low in hp after feigned ! Also no ammo related downside i don't like them , i think much like engineer nest it was map design problem to have abusive amount of large ammo box ... Run the play through down : You have 6sec normal clock , you go in and ran out or act seems like "spy manage clock poorly" and declockc in unideal location , use the 2nd to feign meter hold to activate (toggle off too) , enemy does lethal damage to you will feign you perfectly clocked Uber with half hp when hold active for 3sec then 3sec normal clock , you presumably go for a flank pack to restore the missing half hp and half clock ammo 👍 Sounds aye ?
Here's a much more simple fix: Holding the DR up drains its charge like normal, and then activates the instant death & cloak when you take damage while holding the watch up in this way. Makes you actually have to time and convincingly fake your death and also gives some counterplay - if you notice the spy isn't shooting or shanking then he's probably holding his DR up and draining it out. and you can probably get rid of the speed boost too. Honestly adding that was the thing that originally pushed the DR a little too far, imo.
if the dead ringer awards you for bad positioning, and the big earner rewards you for bad positioning, then if I use them together, then I’ll be unstoppab- *reduced to gibs on 2fort*
ngl i kinda like the sound of this idea, keeps the same kinda concept of the DR but also allows spies to still be able to do there same cloack shinanigens
I've had this idea in my head floating around for a bit for a small but interesting change to spy. Simply changing the "Sapper" slot in his loadout screen to "Gadget" the stock Gadget would still be the sapper of course, but what do you think could be some possibilities for potential spy Gadgets?
TF2 is very much about face-to-face combat. So I first want to rule out all vision obscuring or enhancing abilities. No tracking darts or smoke grenades, that would fundamentally change the appeal and feeling of the game for everyone. Any powerful support tools are annoying on Spy, because Spy's stealth is balanced by his need to take risks. There should never be a Spy that stays in friendly backlines to provide support. That said, there are still some gadget concepts that could work without violating those design principles. One idea that could be fun is throwable gadget that teleports you to the impact location but lightly damages you in the process, basically think about giving Spy Minecraft's Enderpearl. That would open up Spy's movement to brand new locations. Another fun gadget would be one that makes the health pack or ammo kit you shoot at explode (doesn't remove disguise when used). Another fun deception ability could be a hologram that looks like you, just like Mirage from Apex Legends it will mimic your movements when you toggle it. Those are some of the gadgets I think would be a lot of fun and wouldn't break the design of TF2's interactions.
Make one on the ambassador. I think a good fix is a rework of the gun into something like a flintlock with one bullet to negate the fact that revolvers tend to shoot fast(I belive just as fast as the scattergun)
Here is a simple fix: restore the old mechanics of its meter being refilled by ammunition-however, make it so that the more times you activate it within a set time frame, the effects become exponentially less effective. Do this enough times and the effects will turn negative-which can only be restored to positive via successfully surviving without the dead ringer's feign ability-death does not reset this counter. This would offer a few get out of jail free cards, but then punish reckless use of its function.
I can fix the Kunai and Dead ringer combo with one stat change, just add -25% cloak on backstab to the kunai, this has 0 effect on other watches because of the ammo box that enemies drop on death, and because you just backstabbed them you are more than able to pick it up.
Ok, idea to make the deadringer more skill based: the feign is a parry. Time the right click right, and you get the classic deadringer feign, but with a silent decloak. Hold right click, and you cloak normally. That way there's no way for people to abuse it.
My idea: Keep the speed. The damage resistance is reworked to be a bit like sturdy from pokemon (you’re left at exactly one health), with a new downside that you can’t take health while cloaked. For the first couple seconds of cloak, you get invincibility and immunity to most status effects, but after that the speed boost goes away and you’re left as a one health Andy who will die to a slight breeze if the getaway goes awry.
I'm not really sure the changes here would completely stop the Dead Ringer being used insufferably, so I'd like to suggest one more change- Marked for Death for a couple seconds on post-feign decloak. Y'know. Just in case someone gets too comfortable using the kunai. Bear in mind this is from someone who hasn't played in years. Like, the entire bot crisis happened while I was gone. And maybe a few more years before that.
personally my fix is that the feigned death only keeps spy cloaked for about 3 seconds, so spy doesnt get the option to just walk past the enemy team unnoticed, combined with reducing or removing the speed boost and giving spy a 5ish second normal cloak to get into position
i like how this whole thing boils down to "the way its used now is fine enough, but i really want to have the weapon do what it was designed for because it was a good idea" not bashing the use it has, but longing for the intended faking deaths and trickery that very very rarely works in concept
Honestly for my fix I would make it activate upon taking severe damage (to make it more convincing) and giving a damage vulnerability (like the escape plan) however healing you for some health so that you don’t die. This version rewards good positioning and map knowledge, as well as making brute force no longer an option, while giving a good but not significant speed boost to get out of sticky situations, enforcing the trickery and stealth that gives the spy his identity
Hear me out tho, a cloak watch that doesn't cloak, but gives you a pounce on a cooldown (sort of like zombie soldier, but weaker and on a bigger cooldown).
I don't know if a "pounce" would necessarily fit the class, but keeping to the spirit of your idea: having movement related spy gadgets replace the watches could be neat, like a grappling hook.
That doesn't sound useful at all. Cloaking, outside of the Dead Ringer, is the Spy's most consistent way of getting behind enemy lines. Losing that puts the Spy in a bad spot where infiltration becomes a lot harder.
you're absolutely right. if an item in tf2 is designed for one purpose, and 14 years later the valve-intended function and/or playstyle of that weapon is cast aside in favor of an almost polar opposite one, it should be changed as to reallign it with its original intent. while we're at it, we should change the backstab hitbox. valve never intended for spy to have a way to backstab enemies after he is already caught out, IE, trickstabs, right? lets change it from the back 180 degrees of the bounding box to, say, 160 degrees. this will aid in bringing back the spirit of spy, as gaben intended. we should also tweak the interaction between the market gardener and B-hopping, medic uberchaining, and trimping with demoknight.
Sounds too complicated for valve to not make spaghetti out of it, here's a simpler and better fix that would actually make dead ringer about tricking enemies into believing that you died: Cloak Type: Feign Death. Leave a fake corpse upon taking lethal damage (which is completely negated) and temporarily gain invisibility and debuff resistance. +Scoreboard shows you as dead and you "respawn" with next wave. That's all it takes, valve should hire me. And yes, this means that a crit rocket will "kill" you instantly but you will survive with 125 health. But if you were 3hp and you do this in front of heavy, one bullet will be negated and you will immediately die afterwards, no speed boost, no damage resistance, just ignoring 1 single damage hit, if you're using kunai, dead ringer won't do anything until you'd actually die, that means enemy can easily trap you if you're relying on it too much and so you cannot get away with stupid bullshit, you need to plan your escape route like you would with a normal watch. Which means that pyro doesn't have to chase you down like right now, you get caught by pyro, you're dead. Funny idea: +100% knockback on the hit that would be lethal, for potential to send you flying across the map and falling to your death.
One problem the DR faces right now is that when you're in your Dead rung state and can't be bumped to see the cloak shimmer you can still be found out by the massive hiss that follows when pyro is burning you........or maybe that's the Spycicle I'm thinking about.
I know a youtuber that actually makes tf2 custom weapons and leave a link in fhe description to dowload as a puglin, so this design of the read dinger is actually possible
My Rework: Keep the cloak and feign thing BUT feigning gives a massive speed boost, and lasts longer, however, when you decloak from a feign your knife and gun are both jammed for 5-10 seconds, forcing you to disguise before decloaking and act like your life depends on it, because it does Try to aggressively push in with feign? There go your only sources of damage for a while. Try to escape for free with it? Wasting your time, at that point wait for respawn. Use it to fake your death and make the enemy team unaware that there's a living spy disguised as one of them now? Great, just be sure you can act for about 10 seconds without getting caught or... death
I like this change, because if you do an obvious fake death, the lack of a speedboost means that pyros and heavies will kill you if they have good tracking, so it forces you to make your death more convincing, but also gives you normal cloak to make that easier, overall, better to fight against, and better to fight with.
My biggest annoyance with spy is the terrible hit registration. I would just change the backstab angle down from 180 degrees to 150 or 120. Then you would be less likely to die staring directly at them. The backburner only works within 90 degrees.
They tried that, it didn’t work. Years ago they actually reduced the backstab angle to 160 degrees, but people ended up being able to put their back to a wall and be immune to backstabs so it was reverted a day later
The idea of the Dead Ringer functioning kinda like the Gas Passer is cool and does help against the Spy running between resupplies and healing. I do kinda disagree with it on some level though. I think it could be cool for it to function a bit like TFC, where you can just drop dead whenever you like. Maybe have it so if you left click whilst holding the dead ringer out it will do 25 damage and fake your death. It still allows you to do the sneaky spy positioning at the added risk of being in one shot range, plus it does cuck Kunai spies a bit more. With how many people just randomly kill bind I think it won’t be too strange for a spy to randomly die. Maybe split the function where the Dead Ringer triggered by the player gives you the speed whilst the one triggered by enemies gives you defense. Let’s say you get a big pick then you would have the option of self harming for a quick getaway or taking damage to have a safer get away. Course this is untested as I just came up with it so it could be incredibly unfun but still a proposed idea. We also have to consider how it would work with other watches since I have the feeling this needs to heavily be tweaked otherwise it would kinda invalidate the stock.
I'm late here, but I'd like to add one potential small change. The "decloak siren" be moved to the spy's..."fake remains" upon decloaking. The fake remains also cloak with a very slow and shimmery version of how the YER cloaks it's victims. This can be the panic alarm that valve wanted to inform nearby players that a DR is in play, but without instantly giving away the Spy's location.
Another thing that I think needs fixed: if you set a sound to be play when you kill someone, it won’t play if you kill a dead ringer spy. So I think that should be fixed.
I think one second of speed boost should be ok on a feigned death. Just enough to get out of the chaos you feigned your death at but no more. Otherwise, this proposal sounds cool. Now you can do more deception than “died in the middle of a firefight as Gun Spy.”
Hey, it's me! the yellow guy. (do I defend the DR because my profile picture kinda looks like it?) Anyway, this rework idea is really cool. While i would HATE losing the speed boost, I LOVE all forms of trickery and illusion, so i would actually be more than ok with this rework. i actually think the main problem with the dead ringer is the loud decloak. it simply discourages stealth, and therefore discourges people from using it to actually TRICK the enemy. why should i try to fool them when theyll just hear my decloak anyway? not to mention feign deaths are unconvincing in most circumstances do to kill count not going up, ammo boxes not giving ammo, not playing the killsound on a feigned death, and so on. so it kind of only works for distraction plays, tanking damage, or being like me and abusing the speed boost to draw players away from the objective while shooting them with the letranger to recharge it (so much fun)
Omg is that the yellow guy from TF2!?!?!?!?1?1?1?1?
Hello blue guy
Purple guy!!?
Yeah if this was the actual deadringer, I'd love it, but for it to work Valve would have to fix the things that give away that the death is fake (kilcount, killsound, etc) Great video btw!
Just use the Big Earner for that. It already pairs super well with the Dead Ringer anyways.
On the trolldier animation, I noticed he was actually swinging the shovel instead of just holding it the entire animation. Neat little detail, pointed it out so it doesn't feel unnoticed.
I like the idea that the cloak and feign are different bars. Of all of the proposed fixes I have heard since I started playing (about two years ago) that is a first. And everything else is pretty solid too. Hoping that valve will see this because you obviously put some thought into this and I genuinely think it would be a good fix.
not gonna happen
People actually think valve will do literally anything. that's sad.
@@bennetthobbitt9847 new players do, old players just like to imagine. I know that TF2 is unofficially retired but I still like to imagine.
@@bennetthobbitt9847 wow! you really lost all hope? *thats* sad.
@@bennetthobbitt9847 Just because they know they won't dosnt mean that discussing such topics should be prohibited.
I would suggest for testing out the dead ringer, it might be worth it to reach out to Shounic. He’s currently in the middle of testing all kinds of player theories with his 100 player server, and might like the idea. Granted you probably won’t get an answer, it’s still worth a shot.
that would be a neat crossover
shounic is apparently a bot hoster, or used to be one.
@@asadi145 Evidence?
@@asadi145 Evidence?
@@asadi145 Evidence?
Separating the cloak and feign meter is a really cool concept and I thought of an interesting way to make it work without a wall of text.
Spy's weapon slots each serve a single purpose
Gun is for dueling, knife assassination, sapper is espionage, watch is stealth, and the disguise kit was for deception
The dead ringer in its current state is not really a stealth tool but instead of tool for deception that isn't great at deception
What if the dead ringer was an alternative to the disguise kit
You have an invis watch to cloak on demand and then manually switch to the dead ringer to feign
So you are sacrificing a tool for deception in the disguise kit in order to deceive with the dead ringer
Hey Jonto, I have an idea that instead hold to active Feign dead, using "R" key is much more reliable. Take a look at the Disguise kit, if press "R" or "-" you will change to team disguise. Same go with the rework dead ringer, but when change to Feign dead, you can still hold it form instead press R every time pull out the dead ringer, and the speedbost will still hold it but abit slower
this is a good idea, but i dont think you thought about its interaction with other things; if you have the option to arm it once you pull it out with m2 that presents a problem due to the fact that you would've already been cloaked, which you could solve by just forcing decloak though i think that's a bit clunky and unintuitive (moreso than what he suggested in the video). alternatively if you suggest for it to be separate from having the watch out at all, if you have your revolver out and dont use automatic reload (like a psychopath, but that still has to be accounted for, especially on spy for the disguised reloads) you simply dont have a button to reload anymore, which obviously couldnt work
5:13 Minecraft refrence. "removed herobrine"
I think a better alternative to the speed debuff after exiting the feign would be taking a lot longer to decloak, meaning you will be visible the whole decloak and you won't be able to do anything until it's done
That's a better way then just a worse heavy
This is a really interesting idea and I'd love to see it actually playtested to see how well it would work in the context of a full game!
One thing I would warn about, however, is that many people don't have the finger strength or dexterity to utilize "click and continuously hold button" functions. Young children, the elderly, and disabled people can have a lot of trouble continuously holding down buttons. So a lot of games will allow for a "click to trigger the holding-button-down state, click again to deactivate" option in the settings. Including TF2 itself, btw! This is an available option for the Medigun beam. So I think having separate functions for clicking and holding the same button is not the best idea, for accessibility's sake. Said functions would better be delagated to different buttons, at least by default.
Perhaps, taking a hint from the medic's Vaccinator, the *[reload]* key with the Dead Ringer out could activate the normal cloak, while simply having the Dead Ringer out while uncloaked would activate feign death when taking damage.
While invisible, the feign death ability is unusable, which might further emphasize good positioning and movement on the spy's behalf.
*_And now I shall rant about game mechanics._*
I myself would not reduce the cloak duration for normal cloaking, but keep the reduced cloak from ammo packs, or perhaps keep the _no cloak from ammo packs_ restriction of the existing Dead Ringer.
I would also treat the *feign* meter _specifically_ as an indicator for how much invincibility (or damage resistance, or speed boost) time the spy has while *"feign cloaked"* upon activating the feign death.
*To explain:*
- The *feign* meter would recharge slowly, unaltered by other mechanics, and would either be refilled by resupply cabinets, or would need to start at 0 charge to circumvent changing class to refill it.
- On feign death activation, a *"feign cloak"* will be activated as the *cloak* meter quickly drains. During *feign cloak* the spy is giving whatever buffs deemed appropriate; perhaps increased movement speed, increased damage resistance, complete damage invulnerability, or maybe speed or damage resistance proportional to the *feign* meter itself (stat bonus going from 100% to 0% as the *feign* meter does).
- When the *feign* meter is fully drained, the *feign cloak* is converted into normal cloak; the spy's stats would revert to normal and the *cloak* meter would start draining as usual for normal cloaking (with the *cloak* meter having been replenished at the beginning of feign death, thus guaranteeing a full *cloak* meter at this point).
Because this new Dead Ringer would fully replenish the spy's *cloak* meter on feign death activation, the feign death mechanic would be used _instead of ammo packs_ for regenerating cloak, particularly if this new Dead Ringer would retain the current version's _no cloak on ammo pickup._
Having a separate *feign* meter from the *cloak* meter is nice for keeping the feign death ability unaffected by the L'Etranger's cloak filling mechanic, while keeping the gun useful alongside the Dead Ringer.
0/10 video. Never says "spy has a gun"
You are stupid
Yes indeed
Oh boy, the spy Main talking how to fix the dead ringer count me up
the dead ringer is a great weapon, I like to pair it with reclaimed metal in order to make the l'étranger because SPY HAS A GUN
the drg music at 2:00 is an amazing touch
ROCK AND STONE!
I like the idea. It'd also work better with one of the ideas I had for buffing the Red Tape Recorder.
Essentially, what if the Red Tape increased your cloak regen rate and slowed your cloak drain rate whilst it's sapping a building?
Admittedly, this concept could probably be made into it's own sapper, but it's an interaction that I would like all-the-same. Another rework idea I had for the Tape would be to give it a "heads" style of mechanic, where successfully de-leveling a building would give you a charge which you could use. I'm unsure exactly what it could be used for currently, but one idea I had was to let you consume the charges to upgrade friendly engineer buildings (though I don't know how balanced that would be, and it'd also be awkward to actually utilize).
What if it was like a weird bazaar bargain type sapper, where it still de-levels buildings slowly, but every level sapped (or whole building destroyed) gives it a sap speed boost, to de-level even faster.
The levels would be lost on death and have a hard limit like heads, plus it would focus the player on a 'survival and sabotage' mindset.
It's hard to think of a different kind of boon for sapping though, as the sapper itself is only going to be useful with an engi on the enemy team, so I figured it would be best to keep the buff contained to just sapping.
hmm, an idea that popped in my head from seeing your idea, place on friendly buildings. The sapper goes on a thirty second cooldown, and will speed up build rate of the building by 25%. When the sapper does come off cooldown, the friendly placed one breaks and either furthers upgrade progress by 100 metal, or breaks off into a medium ammo kit.
I would try using the disguise as well. Maybe, instead of arming the Feign with a button, you instead can only use it while disguised. So that, whenever you disguise, your "cloak" turns into "feign". Maybe then also make it be able to recharge using Ammo packs, but have it only ever gain the ammo of a small pack, regardless on what type you're picking up. To balance the time you need to wait for a disguise out, maybe make the roar on declaration a little more silent and keep the speedboost.
This version would have some good synergy with the YER. Also, maybe in order to synergies with it a little, have the Spycicle not lose your disguise on swing when you hits nothing. This way, until the moment you get the backstab or at least damage the opponent, you can still peace out.
Maybe also, while wearing enemy disguises using the dead ringer, why not have teammates by able to trigger it with their shots? You could give the one who triggered it some health back, similar to what happens when a pyro extinguishes a burning teammate!
Tell me what you think, also, cool video
Another idea. I’ve been holding onto this one for a while. When the dead ringer is activated, take the current respawn timer of your team and show the spy as “dead” for that time. Additionally, while “dead”, backstabs don’t show in the kill feed. I think that would make it easier for the spy to be “dead” instead of just staring at the kill feed or the scoreboard to see if they’re really out or not.
heres a simple and easy fix: if you hold the dead ringer out for too long, it drains itself rapidly, rewarding both who treat the dead ringer as a parry, and those who use it was a actual disguise tool by making it a tool fully about prediction your opponent, punishing those who spam it with less time to flee.
how would that actually work tho, like whats two long? is it gonna cause spys to do anything other than put it away for a moment. Also does that allow feigning at below max meter?
@@lopsidedpotato you basically get half a second before it starts to drain cloak away, and while you do still feign, the period of time to move about and do things is shortened the longer you had it out. IF you really wanted to embed the idea of reading when your right about to get hurt, maybe putting away the watch without getting hurt will also drain some portion of your cloak, or pulling out the watch is quick but withdrawing it is super sluggish, punishing you for failing a read, same idea as the half zatoichi of commiting to your weapons utility.
@@lopsidedpotato the idea is that the watch would take more to commit to it for all the good things it already does, and by making it passively drain cloak with how long you hold it out to avoid damage, it punishes spamming
never let this man cook
i dont exactly see whats wrong with it? care explaining@@deathbringer9893
very cool editing on this one
Another idea would be that activating it makes you feign death after a short delay whether you received damage or not ;
this would allow it to function more like other watches (you can use it as a stealth tool without needing to receive damage), and make you have to think more about when to use it.
The modern design philosophy of the DR, demonstrated by its most recent balance changes, is it rewards spies for not needing invincibility to get into position for a backstab, and in return it gives the spy an easy way to escape after making a play, a thing that neither of the other two watches are terribly good at compared to the DR.
*That being said* I do like your idea of the arming mechanic with the DR. With this, once the spy arms the dead ringer, the feign meter for the DR is immediately drained by half rather than on activation. That way the spy has a commitment for drawing the dead ringer as a “I want out”, rather than holding the thing any time you’re not attacking. You can still put the thing away after arming it, but that means you still have to wait for it to recharge, and you’re now playing spy without a watch.
I really like this idea, the idea of arming the Dead Ringer is an interesting concept. I've had a few ideas for Dead Ringer reworks after watching both videos back to back among your other videos.
One idea would be that it will no longer require you to hold it out to as it will now automatically activate by default. However it will only trigger if you take a hit that would have killed you, leaving you at critically low HP.
I'm thinking maybe it either leaves you at like 15 Health by default but lower when combined with the Big Earner or Conniver's Kunai due to them reducing Spy's maximum health (maybe leaves you at 5 HP and 1 HP respectively).
Of course the cloak would be slightly buffed to give the Spy a fair chance at escape. Perhaps extending the time to a maximum of maybe 12 seconds with maybe 5 seconds of complete invulnerability to all forms damage, immunity to all status effects, and either a slightly nerfed speed boost or no speed boost at all. The decloak would also be quieter, maybe a little louder than the Invis Watch decloak but difficult to hear when there's so many sounds at once)
However while you can decloak before the maximum time expires, you won't be able to until after those initial 5 seconds have passed.
Lastly the Dead Ringer would also have a longer cooldown to make up for it's strengths which still cannot he sped up with ammo packs (preventing Spies from spamming this willy nilly and instead encourages them to find a good hiding spot away from the fight or to hide in plain sight wirh their disguises).
This version of the Dead Ringer would encourage Spies to rely more on using their disguise kit smartly and acting or hiding from the action without on demand invisibility, making the Dead Ringer more of a riskier tool in return for being an incredibly useful escape option despite how easy you are to kill once it's activated.
An alternative but less interesting concept is that it works the same as it does currently but instead takes a decent amount of your health. Like maybe like 40-60% relative to your maximum health to make less spammable?
If your current health pool is below that required health value though, you would be unable to fake your death and die for real. Though to mess with the enemies it will make it seem like you did actually fake your death with it, just to make it harder for enemies (besides other Spies and Medics with the Solemn Vow) to tell if you are actually dead or still out there and ready to strike at a moments notice, just to instill some paranoia in them and potentially make them waste their time Spychecking the immediate area.
Personally I like the speed buff from the dead ringer and when combined with the spycicle you get a perfect gun spy build. I don't care if it's not the normal or intended way to play Spy. Gun spy is so much fun and it's pretty balanced.
That is an interesting idea. I once proposed having the watch work like a regular Invis Watch, but with a 1 second delay before the manual cloak, where if you get damaged, THEN the feign works. Effectively you have to perfectly parry the attack. Also to make it harder to abuse, make all the Supercloak benefits (afterburn immunity wich I'd buff to full debuff immunity, additional cloak resistance, no cloak blinks) only apply to attacks from the player that triggered the feign. Against everyone else you don't get any benefits.
Another thing I would do is remove these initial 50% loss in cloak (but keeping the duration at 8 seconds) to fix the issues with l'Etranger not properly extending the cloak, as well as eliminating an exploit that can be done in certain maps where you can take damage in spawn and then use the resupply cabinet to get 16 seconds of cloak. Instead I'd make the cloak drain to zero on decloak like it used to, and make the decloak sound volume depend on the remaining cloak. I'd also let it recharge from ammo packs cloaked and uncloaked but with a 75% penalty.
The speed boost is my favorite part of the watch, but since I run the Big Earner with it anyway, I doubt I'd miss it THAT much. So long as I can keep disguising as a friendly Medic to draw enemy fire away from my teammates, I'm good.
I think the idea that the Dead ringer with this fix becomes the survivability watch, C&D is the stealth watch, and stock is the middle ground. Honestly, i think a fourth watch to take the trickery/illusion spot for spy would be really cool. Just need to come up with a way where it doesn't feel Bs to fight.
I had a terrible day till you showed up in my notifications jonto thanks for letting me know about things i should be doing if i played spah
A bit off topic, but how I see the DR Kunai is how I see the Jarate Bushwacka. On their own, Jarate and Bushwaka are actually pretty well balanced. Jarate can be a way to find spies, extinguish fires, and support your team. The Bushwaka is more of an offensive weapon for Sniper, paired well with a Buff Banner or Cleaners Carbine. But the Jarate+Bushwaka combo is what more people have issues with.
Good video tho!
Love the follow up video glad to see you went through with it!
Loving your stuff, since I saw your video on the deadringer, I've also been thinking about a fix and I wanted to share my idea
First, here are the problems with the dead ringer, as I see them
1. It can be used with a lack of intention
2. It gives a too strong buff it's not really supposed to
So let's tackle the first problem, and to do that, we will divide 'damage' into 6 categories, melee, which includes fall damage, fire, explosives, jaraty, knockback, and bullets, which is anything else, now, when you pull up the deadringer, you need to pick which damage you are going to 'die' too, (except jaraty, that's a hard counter) it doesn't go off for any other type of damage. Additionally, if you don't 'die' within 3 seconds of it's activation, it resets, and the clock meeter empties
Since we now know what damage the player is taking, we can get rid of that overpowered general buff, and give a situationally stronger, but balanced buff, which also means if your opponent doesn't buy your death, they can counter you by switching weapons, you could probably do a better job at these buffs then me, but here's my go, melee, complete negates the activating hit, and allows you to not collide with the enemy for the next 3 secobds, but you take 2x damage from all sources, and if those 3 seconds end in a player, you get telefraged, bullets works as it does now, but only for bullets, fire makes you immune to fire and afterburn for 5 seconds, explosives gives you 90% reduction against exclusives, and 50% against bullets, for 3 seconds, but reduces you movement speed to 25%, knockback means you don't take that knockback
I would love to use the DR for it's intended purpose
Like
On the rare occasion where someone falls for the feign and taunt
I just love to imagine the look on their face as they hear the uncloak sound right behind them while they can do nothing
I absolutely love the idea of tapping the button to have one function then holding it for another (probably cause I play Ken and Terry in Smash who are just like that lol)
I'm sorry...is this something too skillful my Hero main brain can't understand...can you try to write this out so I can understand :)
@@deyontemyers4109...Your Side B and Up B work practically the same way (heck, they each have 3 charges)
@@charlesruteal9062 i was making a joke that my main is kinda brain dead
I like your idea to fix it! Although I would change a few things if it were up to me:
1. Make feign activated by pressing reload + right click rather than holding it down. This will make it more snappy and easier to use
2. Keep the speed boost, but make it disappear on decloaking. Because being caught out decloaking is so punishing in this concept, the speed boost will help you get into position easier, while also not enabling abuse because it disappears upon decloaking.
middle click to feign?
Thanks for another banger the concept seems really cool
4:35 I actually like the Dead Ringer decloak sound because it's so unique, so instead of a loud ass "roar on decloak" where it alerts everyone nearby, it'd be cool that the "in-game canon explanation" for the sound effect is actually the watch draining it's cloak meter completely when decloaking from feign.
I actually really like this idea. One of the biggest issues I had with the Deadringer was its inability to get me into position without brute-forcing the feign, so a secondary timer would help keep that.
I do like splitting Cloak and Feign into two things, but may I suggest having "arming" the Dead Ringer to be Middle Mouse button instead of holding right click? Largely cuz I can see it being more finicky than intended and making it a separate button would fix that.
Otherwise I think its something worth testing.
Agreed
I’ve had a dumb idea for a spy watch.
Best name I got for it is “Blinker”.
While active, you turn invisible instantly, then it turns off for 3 seconds (instant uncloak) and repeat.
I mainly use the dead ringer to fake my teammates deaths. That's how I normally get to the enemy backlines.
Note that I'm only an occasional spy and don't use the dead ringer at all, but one idea I had for a "fix" while keeping the same concept is simply scaling the damage resistance, speed boost, and maybe even cloak duration with how much health you're missing opon cloaking, kinda like the escape plan.
The lower your health, the bigger your reward. It rewards not running from a fight at 121 HP but making an actually somewhat credible fake death.
That's a really cool idea! I finally got a second Dead Ringer yesterday (the first one was turned into a L'etranger) and I'd love for it to have Manual Cloak and a lowered Decloak sound
When I tried using it yesterday I just couldn't stealth, but maybe that's just my inexperience with it
My change of the dead ringer would be istead of keeping overheal after a backstab (Conniver's Kunai) or overheal from a other source you lose it after a fake death go back to your normal health pool.
the bonk sound effect during your amby rampage was hilarious!
with the dead ringer in its current state you CAN disguise as an ally, And get shot so you can get past enemy lines, And THEN disguising as an enemy. (but I'm not a spy main so this might be a bad strat idk)
as of now disguising is a weak tool against COMPETENT players
Yeah, disguising is usually so that if someone sees you out if the corner of their eye, they don’t immediately shoot you for being the wrong team color.
I would say one small ergonomic change is make the feign arming the MOUSE3 button, like Medic’s MvM shield. This would just eliminate any possible trip up from trying to cloak normally versus arming feign
Spy is already the weakest class people who complain about him just $uck.
Regarding Dead Ringer, once upon a time it gave no speed boost nor its cloak meter was depleted by taking damage. When activated it just gave you 90% damage reduction during feign death (YES you could survive backstab with it; btw hit from backstab in feign death also used to give you some ungodly push almost like from x2 jump).
During that era THE meta loadout for the Spy was Dead Ringer + L'Etranger + Spycicle because that made the Spy almost unkillable (Spycicle was also nerfed heavily since than). Then Valve started messing with balance and eventually we ended up with this.
Regarding usage, I for example DO use Dead Ringer to feign death when coming from spawn disguised as my teammates in order to sneak behind the enemy (usually to stab the Snipers). This gameplay however is more suited for payload and attack/defense mode than for more chaotic koth and 5CPs. In such mode everybody is spychecked always and everybody is spread around the map so really getting kills without having a speed boost is much more unlikely.
I find it funny how popular the Deep Rock Galactic OST is for backgrounds, and yet how few people actually know what it is.
I once tried to design a couple Spy watches that would send the Spy in question *back in time* when they were used. Even aside from being nightmarish to balance, just the plain technical implementation would have been a major problem.
Perhaps try convincing Fishstickonastick to add this change to the Bad Weapon Rehab server.
I think if the Dead Ringer were to be changed to encourage Spies to actually fake their own death with it, I'd prefer something like the great Equalizer Split where we get one weapon that's more deception-focused like your suggestion and one that functions closer to the original and enables more aggressive Spy play (and the entire Gun Spy playstyle)
I proposed some time ago maybe a Gunslinger-esque PDA replacement for Spy. It's a monocle, but by equipping it the revolvers base damage is increased from 40 to 50 or maybe more, the bullet spread is reduced, and damage fall-off is reduced, so max falloff is 30, not 20. Maybe +25 max health on wearer. At the cost of not being able to cloak at all. No feign death, no invisibility. Maybe you lose the ability to disguise too.
Also if you use this with the ambi you can do headshots from across the map again.
@@mariustan9275 I think being able to escape with the Dead Ringer and use disguises to throw off your hitbox/improve the Enforcer is a core part of what makes playing Gun Spy so fun for me.
@@Awesomeness-iz3dh Yeah but this item would still be cool. Gunslinger exists but not every offensive Engineer will use it. This is just optional.
one thing i would propose is giving the watch the equaliser treatment, spiltting the watch into two different categories. one being the fix suggested, focusing on making the lie seem as true as possible, and keeping the resistances, and another that focuses on that sweet speed spy mains love.
one watch i would suggest for this, works similarly to the dead ringer of today, only triggering if taking damage from any source, but as oppesed to dropping a fake corpse, it cloaks the spy instantly while leaving smoke behind, as well as the spy chuckling as the watch activates. the watch would only give a 20% intitial damage resistance to try and safeguard against quickscopes, making the activation somewhat reliable (scince its not), but otherwise it gains no resistance, save for not being able to shimmer for the first second, giving you a quick chance to slip away from the heavy with his minigun crosshair taped to you. and thats all the getaway tools you get. you'd still be easy to kill by amost classes with good aim, but youre given a chance to evade fire if you see it coming, letting you reposition, retreat or reangage.
his voice Deepened so much since last year...
I like the idea for a rebalance, and i want to see someone try to implement it, maybe in a Vscript map if possible? idk i dont use Vscript
Hi
@@dominicnordquidst5025 a fellow Dominic, nice to see you
its more then possible with Vscript, Vscript allows for really anything to be done at the cost of it only done on that map, including entire new weapons as seen with the Zombie survival mode, yea sure the Zombies base attack is just stock melee, but its effectively a melee reskin exclusive to that game mode
Vscript allows for people to add in any custom content they want, but its restricted to only that map that has the Vscript code
I wanna see someone implement this in a sourcemod plugin too for like a rebalance server to be used
I'd like to add that while you're holding right click to feign, you should still be able to attack with left click until you actually drop "dead" and cloak away. That way it looks even more convincingly like you're trying to escape while making a last-ditch effort to kill your attacker rather than just trigger the Dead Ringer like a knob.
The dead ringer should just be an alternate way of evoking the cloak. Every mechanic that would make being deceptive required for running the dead ringer is *already* implemented in the cloak.
If I were to redesign it, it would work like this.
On cloak, the C&D will activate a countdown. Cloak will not replenish during this countdown. If the countdown is interrupted by the spy, they cannot cloak again until a second has passed. Spies can use their weapons while the countdown is active. When the spy take damage it will feign their death. A feigned death will be completely indistinguishable from a real death (shows up in kill counts, shows up in the kill ticker, dropping ammo, etc...). If the countdown elapsed naturally then the spy will simply cloak.
On de-cloak, set the spy's speed to 77% (the speed of a Heavy) for 2 seconds.
That's it, most of that text is just describing the mechanic, but cloak recharge, ammo pack pickup, duration, flashing when damaged while cloaked is all retained. (I omitted the current downside of needing to be fully replenished to cloak again as the speed penalty would be enough punishment for using it sub-optimally) I would love to see something like this in effect. I decided to omit any damage resistances as well or a mechanic that would leave the spy with 1 hp if they took lethal damage. I would want to play test to see if it's worth doing or if people start using it as a get out of bad positioning free card. Maybe turning off flicker for the first second might be more than enough?
I never got why ppl want to nerf Spy unlocks when all but one are allowed in competitive (DB being only banned in only Highlander for only it's trait of farming crits from teleporters, and yet modt DB rebalances ignore crits from buildings stat and make it worse Amby like replacing crits with minicrits)
And it's not like I only play Scout, I played tons of classes(can't decide on the main) and I never experienced any frustration from fighting amby or dr or especially DB.
DR was allowed, I think in a l l it's state(super armor, speed boost, pre last nerf state)in competitive because, it's literally just survivability tool, a tool spy crucially needs to be even remotely viable after getting one med pick since without DR, he insta dies(and even then it wasn't used always)
It's like community acknowledges that Spy is too weak since he can only ideally get 1 pick, Valve introduces new toys to either improve his survivability or make him atleast 1v1 others somewhat, and all are hated. Heck, even KUNAI is getting hate now because some guy named Fishonastick made an "expose" video about how "op" kunai is.
Ngl if my favourite classes to play got so much hate for unlocks that aren't even remotely OP, I'd lose my God damn mind, can't imagine how Spy and Pyro mains feel 😅
Taking longer to arm the dr is a good concept cause it’s harder to use it as an escape tool, the other changes make it a better stealth tool too, but not as good as stock or c&d
A fix being “-Removed Herobrine” definitely makes me nostalgic.
4:50
Likely the _really_ old sound from when the Saharan spy set was a thing, just slightly tuned up.
Dance of the Dreadnought fucking rules!!
ROCK AND STONE!
ROCK AND STONE YEAAAAAAH
This one is alright...
With slight adjustment , the idea of both having clock(reduced duration) and feigned is great and synergized .
You A make normal clock play with half the resources , B "act" ran out of clock and punished by enemy then feigned refresh clock and relocate .
Problem being not so agree on main downside/punishment were slow down (it might get strafe negated) and discouraged to go for critical pick .
Proposed another way feign work , hold to active , no dr no speed boost but rather only feigned when hp "reaches 0hp" and left with 1hp(or half current if it's too harsh) feign with perfectly clocked Uber (invincibility) for 3sec then the rest 3sec normal clock , no cosmic loud declock(volune down a lot) you are always low in hp after feigned ! Also no ammo related downside i don't like them , i think much like engineer nest it was map design problem to have abusive amount of large ammo box ...
Run the play through down :
You have 6sec normal clock , you go in and ran out or act seems like "spy manage clock poorly" and declockc in unideal location , use the 2nd to feign meter hold to activate (toggle off too) , enemy does lethal damage to you will feign you perfectly clocked Uber with half hp when hold active for 3sec then 3sec normal clock , you presumably go for a flank pack to restore the missing half hp and half clock ammo 👍
Sounds aye ?
Here's a much more simple fix:
Holding the DR up drains its charge like normal, and then activates the instant death & cloak when you take damage while holding the watch up in this way. Makes you actually have to time and convincingly fake your death and also gives some counterplay - if you notice the spy isn't shooting or shanking then he's probably holding his DR up and draining it out.
and you can probably get rid of the speed boost too. Honestly adding that was the thing that originally pushed the DR a little too far, imo.
"I am back" - (un)dead ringer
Just woke up, new Jontohil video new
if the dead ringer awards you for bad positioning, and the big earner rewards you for bad positioning, then if I use them together, then I’ll be unstoppab-
*reduced to gibs on 2fort*
ngl i kinda like the sound of this idea, keeps the same kinda concept of the DR but also allows spies to still be able to do there same cloack shinanigens
I've had this idea in my head floating around for a bit for a small but interesting change to spy. Simply changing the "Sapper" slot in his loadout screen to "Gadget" the stock Gadget would still be the sapper of course, but what do you think could be some possibilities for potential spy Gadgets?
TF2 is very much about face-to-face combat. So I first want to rule out all vision obscuring or enhancing abilities. No tracking darts or smoke grenades, that would fundamentally change the appeal and feeling of the game for everyone. Any powerful support tools are annoying on Spy, because Spy's stealth is balanced by his need to take risks. There should never be a Spy that stays in friendly backlines to provide support.
That said, there are still some gadget concepts that could work without violating those design principles. One idea that could be fun is throwable gadget that teleports you to the impact location but lightly damages you in the process, basically think about giving Spy Minecraft's Enderpearl. That would open up Spy's movement to brand new locations. Another fun gadget would be one that makes the health pack or ammo kit you shoot at explode (doesn't remove disguise when used). Another fun deception ability could be a hologram that looks like you, just like Mirage from Apex Legends it will mimic your movements when you toggle it.
Those are some of the gadgets I think would be a lot of fun and wouldn't break the design of TF2's interactions.
I wanna call this version of the Dead Ringer the "Dead Giveaway" for some reason
"You thought I was done talking about the dead ringer?", My brother in Christ you said you had a follow up video in the last video.
Make one on the ambassador. I think a good fix is a rework of the gun into something like a flintlock with one bullet to negate the fact that revolvers tend to shoot fast(I belive just as fast as the scattergun)
Here is a simple fix: restore the old mechanics of its meter being refilled by ammunition-however, make it so that the more times you activate it within a set time frame, the effects become exponentially less effective. Do this enough times and the effects will turn negative-which can only be restored to positive via successfully surviving without the dead ringer's feign ability-death does not reset this counter. This would offer a few get out of jail free cards, but then punish reckless use of its function.
I can fix the Kunai and Dead ringer combo with one stat change, just add -25% cloak on backstab to the kunai, this has 0 effect on other watches because of the ammo box that enemies drop on death, and because you just backstabbed them you are more than able to pick it up.
Ay my SFM is there! Great video Jonto, but I'm still not gonna play spy, it's scary
Ok, idea to make the deadringer more skill based: the feign is a parry. Time the right click right, and you get the classic deadringer feign, but with a silent decloak. Hold right click, and you cloak normally. That way there's no way for people to abuse it.
My idea: Keep the speed. The damage resistance is reworked to be a bit like sturdy from pokemon (you’re left at exactly one health), with a new downside that you can’t take health while cloaked. For the first couple seconds of cloak, you get invincibility and immunity to most status effects, but after that the speed boost goes away and you’re left as a one health Andy who will die to a slight breeze if the getaway goes awry.
I recognize that soundtrack and all I can say is, ROCK AND STONE
I'm not really sure the changes here would completely stop the Dead Ringer being used insufferably, so I'd like to suggest one more change- Marked for Death for a couple seconds on post-feign decloak. Y'know. Just in case someone gets too comfortable using the kunai.
Bear in mind this is from someone who hasn't played in years. Like, the entire bot crisis happened while I was gone. And maybe a few more years before that.
personally my fix is that the feigned death only keeps spy cloaked for about 3 seconds, so spy doesnt get the option to just walk past the enemy team unnoticed, combined with reducing or removing the speed boost and giving spy a 5ish second normal cloak to get into position
This vid had me squirming as I only use it. Deadringer my beloved
I've used the Dead Ringer like, once, but this seems like a pretty good change from what I know about it
i like how this whole thing boils down to "the way its used now is fine enough, but i really want to have the weapon do what it was designed for because it was a good idea"
not bashing the use it has, but longing for the intended faking deaths and trickery that very very rarely works in concept
I like tf2 classics redesign of the dead ringer where they just make it give you a speed boost when cloaked with the downside of reduced cloak time
Honestly for my fix I would make it activate upon taking severe damage (to make it more convincing) and giving a damage vulnerability (like the escape plan) however healing you for some health so that you don’t die. This version rewards good positioning and map knowledge, as well as making brute force no longer an option, while giving a good but not significant speed boost to get out of sticky situations, enforcing the trickery and stealth that gives the spy his identity
The thumbnail Easter egg is nice 👍
Good use of Deep Rock Galactic's soundtrack here, btw.
Hear me out tho, a cloak watch that doesn't cloak, but gives you a pounce on a cooldown (sort of like zombie soldier, but weaker and on a bigger cooldown).
I don't know if a "pounce" would necessarily fit the class, but keeping to the spirit of your idea: having movement related spy gadgets replace the watches could be neat, like a grappling hook.
That doesn't sound useful at all. Cloaking, outside of the Dead Ringer, is the Spy's most consistent way of getting behind enemy lines. Losing that puts the Spy in a bad spot where infiltration becomes a lot harder.
@@Techhunter_Talon eh, i don't really know, i just liked the idea of a spy pouncing on you, getting a backstab and jumping away.
you're absolutely right. if an item in tf2 is designed for one purpose, and 14 years later the valve-intended function and/or playstyle of that weapon is cast aside in favor of an almost polar opposite one, it should be changed as to reallign it with its original intent. while we're at it, we should change the backstab hitbox. valve never intended for spy to have a way to backstab enemies after he is already caught out, IE, trickstabs, right? lets change it from the back 180 degrees of the bounding box to, say, 160 degrees. this will aid in bringing back the spirit of spy, as gaben intended. we should also tweak the interaction between the market gardener and B-hopping, medic uberchaining, and trimping with demoknight.
Me: *explains why the kunai is bad*
My friend: Ok, now, explain this:
Sounds too complicated for valve to not make spaghetti out of it, here's a simpler and better fix that would actually make dead ringer about tricking enemies into believing that you died:
Cloak Type: Feign Death.
Leave a fake corpse upon taking lethal damage (which is completely negated)
and temporarily gain invisibility and debuff resistance.
+Scoreboard shows you as dead and you "respawn" with next wave.
That's all it takes, valve should hire me.
And yes, this means that a crit rocket will "kill" you instantly but you will survive with 125 health. But if you were 3hp and you do this in front of heavy, one bullet will be negated and you will immediately die afterwards, no speed boost, no damage resistance, just ignoring 1 single damage hit, if you're using kunai, dead ringer won't do anything until you'd actually die, that means enemy can easily trap you if you're relying on it too much and so you cannot get away with stupid bullshit, you need to plan your escape route like you would with a normal watch. Which means that pyro doesn't have to chase you down like right now, you get caught by pyro, you're dead.
Funny idea: +100% knockback on the hit that would be lethal, for potential to send you flying across the map and falling to your death.
One problem the DR faces right now is that when you're in your Dead rung state and can't be bumped to see the cloak shimmer you can still be found out by the massive hiss that follows when pyro is burning you........or maybe that's the Spycicle I'm thinking about.
I know a youtuber that actually makes tf2 custom weapons and leave a link in fhe description to dowload as a puglin, so this design of the read dinger is actually possible
My Rework:
Keep the cloak and feign thing BUT
feigning gives a massive speed boost, and lasts longer, however, when you decloak from a feign your knife and gun are both jammed for 5-10 seconds, forcing you to disguise before decloaking and act like your life depends on it, because it does
Try to aggressively push in with feign? There go your only sources of damage for a while. Try to escape for free with it? Wasting your time, at that point wait for respawn. Use it to fake your death and make the enemy team unaware that there's a living spy disguised as one of them now? Great, just be sure you can act for about 10 seconds without getting caught or... death
I like this change, because if you do an obvious fake death, the lack of a speedboost means that pyros and heavies will kill you if they have good tracking, so it forces you to make your death more convincing, but also gives you normal cloak to make that easier, overall, better to fight against, and better to fight with.
3 minutes of an intro and 2 minutes of fixing it, NICE.
My biggest annoyance with spy is the terrible hit registration.
I would just change the backstab angle down from 180 degrees to 150 or 120. Then you would be less likely to die staring directly at them.
The backburner only works within 90 degrees.
They tried that, it didn’t work.
Years ago they actually reduced the backstab angle to 160 degrees, but people ended up being able to put their back to a wall and be immune to backstabs so it was reverted a day later
The idea of the Dead Ringer functioning kinda like the Gas Passer is cool and does help against the Spy running between resupplies and healing.
I do kinda disagree with it on some level though. I think it could be cool for it to function a bit like TFC, where you can just drop dead whenever you like. Maybe have it so if you left click whilst holding the dead ringer out it will do 25 damage and fake your death. It still allows you to do the sneaky spy positioning at the added risk of being in one shot range, plus it does cuck Kunai spies a bit more. With how many people just randomly kill bind I think it won’t be too strange for a spy to randomly die.
Maybe split the function where the Dead Ringer triggered by the player gives you the speed whilst the one triggered by enemies gives you defense. Let’s say you get a big pick then you would have the option of self harming for a quick getaway or taking damage to have a safer get away.
Course this is untested as I just came up with it so it could be incredibly unfun but still a proposed idea. We also have to consider how it would work with other watches since I have the feeling this needs to heavily be tweaked otherwise it would kinda invalidate the stock.
3:02 that explains everything, yet everything was already explained
I'm late here, but I'd like to add one potential small change. The "decloak siren" be moved to the spy's..."fake remains" upon decloaking. The fake remains also cloak with a very slow and shimmery version of how the YER cloaks it's victims. This can be the panic alarm that valve wanted to inform nearby players that a DR is in play, but without instantly giving away the Spy's location.
Actually really good idea
Another thing that I think needs fixed: if you set a sound to be play when you kill someone, it won’t play if you kill a dead ringer spy. So I think that should be fixed.
babe wake up, jontohil2 uploaded
I think one second of speed boost should be ok on a feigned death. Just enough to get out of the chaos you feigned your death at but no more.
Otherwise, this proposal sounds cool. Now you can do more deception than “died in the middle of a firefight as Gun Spy.”
I think that the Dead Ringer will never be fixable, either being a crutch that isn't used for its purpose or just straight inferior to stock Invis.