Gosh darn cliff! Quote the CDC and what it says about the homosexual dangers and quit going in circles with these people! Your podcast is called” gimme an answer “ give one based on medical science!
@@xxJ0xx sexually transmitted diseases have been transmitted by heterosexuals as well...throughout history. Most people today with HIV are heterosexual. But yes, as long as there is Christianity I am sure they will not allow gay people to be happy. All the judgement and condescension that comes from this religion. Many people's happiness is affected by this religion. I am much happier since my deconversion
The main issues with sex is people avoid two of the most important questions, what is the purpose of sex and what are the psychological, emotional and physical consequences of sexual acts.
I have found out that most atheist don’t won’t to hear about our Bible they need believable evidence but even then that’s not enough. Cliff does a great job explaining evidence
I think you'll find many atheists have read the Bible cover to cover. That's why I'm an atheist. That's why many other atheists lost their faith. I will change my view if presented with good evidence. But there isn't any good evidence.
Cliffe just tell him sexuality is sacred. It's purpose and intent was for man and woman to become one flesh, to have children and be a family. Mother and Daddy have different rolls in that union. It is natural because we know only men and women can have offspring naturally...
Hi Cliffe. God bless you. God is God. He did set rules and it's for our good. I can't say I understand the situation you're in on your evangelical direction, but I do pray for you Time to time. Don't get tired or frustrated. Most of all, don't get afraid. God said it, and we follow. The gay arguing guy almost made you change tone there. Don't allow people who are loud in the physical but quiet in the spirit intimidated you. They do come in strongly and you're unbelievably gracious in your handlings of those issue. God bless you big brother in Christ.
Whoa! At 21:00 minutes Cliffe said that it's NOT wrong to have a hateful thought but it's a matter of what you do with that hateful thought. However 1 John 3:15 says that if you hate someone then that makes you a murderer at heart. You don't have to act upon the hate and actually physically hurt the person to hate someone and to have that thought is wrong. Would he say the same for lust? That it's NOT wrong to lust after women as long as you aren't acting upon it physically and sexually? He also said that it's not wrong to be gay. The problem is that those desires, thoughts, feelings and inclinitions are still contrary to God, they still miss the mark and do not glorify God, it doesn't matter if you act upon them or not. God sees our thought life!
Hating someone is different from having a hateful thought. Hating someone is feeding/continuing the hateful thought process. It's whether you feed it or not. If a hateful thought comes up and you feed it into hating that person that is a sin. Same thing with lust. Lusting after someone is different than having a lustful thought for a moment. As a Christian, I would ask the Lord to keep me from being seduced by that thought and apologizing for having that reaction.
@@michaelbabbitt3837 You said that lusting after someone is different than having a lustful thought for a moment. But is it!?? When you have a lustful thought towards a girl what are you doing in that moment......lusting after someone! Either way, lusting after someone as you say and having a lusting thought for a moment are both wrong. Are you trying to justify or say that one is ok? Cliffe's point was that it's not wrong to have a hateful thought and if we were to follow his logic then it would also mean that having a lustful thought for a moment is also not wrong. But having a lustful thought is long regardless of the duration. You said that hating someone is different than having a hateful thought. But what if the hateful thought that you have in your head is that you hate that person? I don't know that hating someone means continuing to hate them or the hateful thought process. You can hate someone for a time then repent and move on. I don't know if this is semantics, if he explained it really poorly or if he doesn't see any of these things as wrong or what...
@@michaelbabbitt3837 As an atheist I have a completely different thought pattern regarding lust. I think it's absolutely fine to lust and it's something that every single healthy person on the planet does. It's when you are told by ancient religious scriptures that its wrong and you believe that, that's when it becomes problematic. I desire and admire sexy women everyday, i see it as one of life's free pleasures. If you sat opposite a truly gorgeous female on a long train journey, and she had the most beautiful eyes, and a fantastic body, what man in his right mind would not fantasize about her?. It would take great powers of concentration to not think about her.. and what a waste. Any man who claims he wouldn't fantasize about her I would call him a liar, or maybe gay. As I said, looking at attractive looking people is one of life's free pleasures in my book, I have no shame or guilt or a need to try and block those images out of my mind for fear of offending God.
The guy just admitted that he wants to live life the way he wants to so don’t blame god if u go to hell blame yourself because u wanted to do it your way
I mean no disrespect to anyone claiming to be an atheist. I mean this with the highest respect. Whenever i hear someone try to justify any kind of morality, apart from God, IT. JUST. DOESN'T. WORK., not For me. It seems like they certainly do have an answer to why they believe something is right/wrong. The one i hear most often is that society determines such things. And if you go against what the majority says, there's consequences. My response is "so what?" Where is it written that it's wrong to do such & such? Oh, because a group of people say so? Why do i care about what they say?? I don't. You're a man, no different than me. Who are you to tell me what i can and can't do? Yes i know there are certain things that i wouldn't want people to do to me, I'm sorry but that's not reason enough for me to not do those things to you. In a world with no God i would not be the same person i am now. I recognize the value of other human beings who are also made in the image of God. Perhaps in a totally atheistic world there may even be far less crime. Whatever. you Still can't tell me not to do, whatever it is i feel like doing. That's my take. God bless
I'm going to be extremely honest with you here John, you could well be right, in fact, I am sure you are but what you have stated here is basically a good reason to HOPE that a God exists rather than a reason to be sure one does ACTUALLY exist. What you say also leaves me wanting to believe there is a God so I can feel like there is a point to life and a moral compass to follow, I hear you there, but it gives me nothing to decide for sure that he really does exist other than wishing that he did. I accept that if God doesn't exist and we knew for sure he didn't exist then, as human beings, there would be no higher authority to appeal to other than ourselves as human beings and the people who we appoint to be our authority like governments, the Police, etc. As you said, in some situations, I might say what I think is right and you might say what you think is right, and if we disagree then there is no decider other than that authority I mentioned or the majority but as you said, there would be nothing to stop you from defying the authorities or the majority, it's not like they have divine power or anything. So yes, I share your sentiment there, having a God or at least believing in a God would help us in that way to have a better sense of having someone or something higher and more powerful than us to look up to....yaaaay...I'd like nothing better. The big problem is it doesn't mean that a God DOES actually exist though. There are many things I would HOPE are true, it doesn't mean they actually are. Wouldn't you much rather know for SURE that something is true rather than hope it is true just because it gives you a sense of ultimate morality and you see no ultimate morality if it isn't?
@@JohnCashin I disagree. The fact that we even apprehend objective morals points to an objective standard above and beyond ourselves. And moral only pertains to persons. So, it is rational to conclude that there is a personal God.
@@drew2fast489 That's not what I said. You're disagreeing with something that is separate from the point I was making in response to John Soto. What I said was that I agree with John Soto when he says that without a God or belief in a God, we would only have ourselves to decide what is right and what is wrong which would be chaotic (a bit like the world is) and therefore having a God or a belief in a God/Higher Authority is more desirable than atheism in that sense because it gives us all a quick 'tie breaker', the big deciding factor, if you like, when it comes to morality, eg "I say X, you say Y, God the highest authority of all says B....B it is...end of...whereas if neither of us believed in God, we would be spending all day arguing over it and getting nowhere, so it gives us an incentive to want to believe that a God exists. Whether or not a God does exist is another matter which is separate from whether or not believing in God has any benefit. That was my point.
@@JohnCashin Hey John Cashin. I just want to reply to what you said about how having a higher power as a moral compass would be a good thing but that it doesn't necessarily prove that God exists. I mean, how does a person know anything? By observation. How do we observe stuff? Through our sight. Our smell. By hearing. Can we only know something is true through science? The bible talks about our spirit and that the spirit of man died in the garden of Eden when we chose to serve ourselves rather than the one who created us. And since we have died in our spirit we can no longer hear (observe) God. This is why Christ said we must be born again. This is also why we cannot prove God's existence by means of science, etc. Because the only way to connect with God is in spirit. No i do not have proof a spirit exists. But i am convinced in my own mind. And i would say that so is everyone else who has placed their faith in Christ Jesus. I used to be angry that i wasn't born with more intelligence, strength, better looks, etc. But now i see that the Lord uses my weaknesses to reveal his strength. And as i continue to place my faith in him, he continues to reveal more and more of himself to me, and to others through me. So i would say i have plenty of evidence to believe God exists but that it is all internal, which is then manifested externally through my actions. God bless. PEACE
Rationalise ANYTHING however you want, there are some things that are right and some things that are wrong and we will be judged accordingly. It just is. We will all find out one day. God is the ultimate judge.
There's nothing wrong with noticing beautiful people. It is what you do with that thought that matters. I don't think I have ever lusted maybe when I was younger. I have been married more than once which isn't the way I wanted it to be but they were horribly abusive. I missed out on having children and sex is the last thing on my list when it comes to marriage now that I can no longer procreate. Lots and lots of things come before sex on my list for a relationship.
God bless you. John 1 - ዮሃንስ 9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
It's fascinating how soany ppl can't see why hook up culture is bad When the evidence is all around ... Abortions, single moms, unable to pair bond, etc
There are two big reasons why men should not have multitudes of partners, until he finally comes across a woman he feels he wants to marry: 1/ We begin to find in different woman, different "tastes" within the sexual performance of different woman, and 2/ you begin to build up a tolerance for different women! 1/ Because you have the ability from #1 to remember who those VERY BEST PERFORMERS among your conquests were, and too, what their individual successes were so far as you're concerned, and after you are married, you begin to place faces and think of THEIR performances, it is likely because of your many women when younger, it make take two years for the BAD STUFF to come to fruition in your married life, but because you have a #2, a tolerance for more than one women for the rest of your life, and because you've experienced far too many women, and their performances, you herein, have another reason to become an adulterer on your husband or wife! This is absolutely correct, which sadly, I have the ability to attest to from my own life! I am not a young man these days, but am going back a fairly long way, to bring forth these points! Marriage is a most beautiful institution and nothing can beat the FAMILY LIFE! Those with many partners before marriage, has undermined your marriage maybe decades before you've finally said "I do!" SPIRITUALLY: Scripture tells us: "15: Know ye not that your bodies are the members [Body Temples] of Messiah? shall I then take the members of Messiah, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16: What? KNOW YE NOT THAT HE WHICH IS JOINED TO AN HARLOT IS ONE BODY? FOR TWO, SAITH HE, SHALL BE ONE FLESH. 17: But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit [Has the mind of Messiah indwelling the Body Temple]. 18: FLEE FORNICATION. Every sin that a man doe[s] is without/[outside] the body; but he that commit[s] fornication sin[s] against his own body. 19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [The indwelling mind of Messiah; See 1Cor. 2: 14 - 16, KJV] which is in you, which ye have of El, and YOU ARE NOT YOUR OWN? 20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify El in your body, and in your spirit, which are El's" (1Corinthians 6: 15 - 20, KJV. emphasis, Name changes, and inserts in brackets, mine).
Exactly what justice is there in a religion that says this: 1. If you are a person who takes care of their mother, fosters 3 children and gives to the poor you go to hell because you aren't a Christian. 2. But if you are a lifelong child rapist and accept Christ 4 days before you die at 73 years old you are rewarded in heaven And you say there is justice in this religion? Better justice in the real world
Correction ,The best argument for atheism is simply we don't believe you have proven christianity true. Some atheist are chaste or don't have excessive sex.
Did the young man say that Cliff is not sure that God exists?! Then what's the point of you being there convincing people to Jesus? Of course God exists because we have a personal relationship with him, which proves enough for our ownselves. Never tell people that you're not sure if God exists or not, that defeats the purpose of evangelism!
The French word for lust is convoîtise which means the desire or want to have and own anything or anyone that does not belong to us or to which we have no rightful access. It is related to the English word covetousness.
Yes, it's because God says so. Murder is wrong because God tells us so. Stealing is wrong because God says so. Without God none of these things are wrong or right.
Why is someone's sexuality an issue of identity and rights to begin with? Who cares? It seems to me there is an agenda to get people to focus on sexuality. There are so many other relevant and important topics to focus on.
@@twelvedozen5075 - Why is someone that opposes that lifestyle any concern of anyone' s ??, see Indiana Religious Freedom Bill , and GA HB 757 , or even the non-sense that the CHRISTIAN baker had to go through .
Listen, if God created man in His own image then it is safe to say that He did not create us with sexual desires, as it would mean that God has sexual desires and we know that would be a contradiction. No, God doesn't have sexual desires, these came the moment sin entered the world, as it is written James 2Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. This means that it wasn't until sin entered that it became shameful to see a naked body Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Why hide their nakedness? Shame!
I believe sex was for one reason and one reason alone, to procreate but what man has resorted to was a perversion of God's purpose. God says okay but you will have to follow rules and that is to be married to one woman and one man, a husband and a wife. You'll say well, what about the sensation that is felt when taking part in the sexual act? Then I will have to say that this is a biproduct of sin. Just like I believe that women weren't to have painful childbirth, as it is writtenGenesis 3:16 “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children...
He doesn't answer the question about homosexuality directly because he's homophobic. He uses the bible to justify his bigotry, and that is what is wrong with religion.
@jasonmitchell7550 There are a lot of things that are sexually immoral. Paedophilia, rape, incest, adultery. Being gay is not immoral. Sex between consenting adults is not immoral. Being bigoted and homophobic however, seems to be a feature of many religions. Disguising it with the Bible and pretending you're not homophobic is a neat trick but I hope people aren't fooled by it.
@jasonmitchell7550 Again I make the point that being gay is not immoral. Being homophobic is. What's your point. Stop wasting my time and put your argument in writing.
It amazes me that so many people think that some guy, who calls himself a preacher, is worth standing around bouncing questions off him.....or thinking that there is "a god" the preacher speaks for.
If you really believed this, you wouldn't have bothered to watch the video and post about it in the comments. What you are really concerned about deep down is that your atheistic belief could be wrong and so are lashing out to feel better about yourself. But instead of running from that feeling of conviction, you should think more deeply about these things.
@@ServingChrist "If you really believed this, you wouldn't have bothered to watch the video and post about it in the comments." Why not? I made a valid comment. I don't know why people would just stand there and listen to a guy just because he is a "preacher". It's not like he has any authority in his words. "What you are really concerned about deep down is that your atheistic belief could be wrong and so are lashing out to feel better about yourself." Okay,...so you claim to know what I'm "really concerned about down deep"? I'm MORE concerned that people accept "god claims" which don't have credible evidence. And as for my comment, I really don't see how you consider it as "lashing out". I made an observation. "But instead of running from that feeling of conviction, you should think more deeply about these things." So, no....I have no "feeling of conviction". You don't know me or what I'm about, so I understand that you must use your faith belief to place me in a specific box.
@@dlmusicproduction3132 Your actions give you away. If you didn't have an interest in these things, you wouldn't be here. You would be doing other things that you do have an interest in. It is ok to admit you are interested whether you are Christian or atheist or agnostic. These are things people should think about.
@@ServingChrist What do you mean "my actions give me away"? I told you why I'm here. Why do you attempt to make it SEEM like you caught me in something?? :-/ And then you say, "It is ok to admit you are interested whether you are Christian or atheist or agnostic." I'm an agnostic atheist. There is no "interest in whether I am Christian" because that is not going to be the case. See, again, you make it appear that YOU know me more than you actually do. WHY? What is the purpose of these false claims?? O_o
@@dlmusicproduction3132 There is no reason for you to be here watching this video unless you have a curiosity about the content. That is why I say your actions give you away. Your interest was piqued by the content which is why you watched the video instead of doing laundry, watching a ball game or really anything else. At some level, you were curious and wanted to know what the preacher had to say. I think it is humorous that you can't acknowledge this. It is ok to admit you were curious. You can still go on being an agnostic atheist. It is actually a good thing you were curious and wanted to think about things more deeply. You shouldn't view it as something to be ashamed of that you need to hide.
Cliffe says if there is no God, it doesn't matter if you have sex with men, women or a golden retriever, he says it's all personal choice.. ( if there is no God). I don't know of any atheist who would say bestiality is acceptable, you would be violating an animal that has not given it's consent to have sex with you. Cliffe seems to think that if you are an atheist, you are also a moral relatavist..I don't know of any atheist who thinks whatever they prefer is ok. We all have rules to live by, I can't go into a shop and help myself to the cash register if I'm short of money. I would say that Atheism and Moral relativism are 2 separate things.. I've *never* seen any dictionary/thesaurus that describes atheism as anything to do with moral relativism.
@@twelvedozen5075 My moral standards were given to me by primarily my parents and those around me growing up in a civilized society, that's how all of us begin to understand what is right and wrong/good and bad.. some of the things we get told are good and bad can be subject to change by that society if it can be shown to be beneficial or harmful to society.. i can give you various examples if you wish... we are the makers of the rules we wish to follow, not God...we don't burn people alive these days, it's not acceptable as it was a few hundred years ago, nor do we criminalize homosexuality as we did only a few decades ago. We've figured this stuff out for ourselves using rationale and reason.
bonnie43uk So you have moral presences. It follows that other people can have moral preferences that diametrically oppose yours. But since there are no objective morals, neither preference is right or wrong.
@@twelvedozen5075 I don't believe that to be the case, if someone has a diametrically opposite view to me..( and clearly you do, which is fine so long as it's not hurting others), I can give you rational reasons why I believe I am right and why it's beneficial for society, the proof is in the pudding as they say. This is how societies learn and grow, improving as each generation learns more. How many moral objectives are there?, how many can you name? We can probably agree on quite a few things that we believe to be moral and immoral, and I'm sure there are some we would not agree on. Anyhoo, it's my bedtime now, it'll be good to hear your comments, I'll try and respond tomorrow :-)
@@bonnie43uk If there is only ONE thing objectively wrong then God exists - we don't need a whole list. Re your societies "growing" and "improving" theory, well, we're one push of a button away from WW3. Surrender to Christ and come back home Tom.
If Cliffe thinks the best argument for not believing in his supernatural worldview is that non-belief gives more sexual freedom....then he is so deep in his model that he has lost all ability to understand other views.
Still doing this after the Matt Dillahunty debate, huh? And the best atheist argument for homosexuality is not that we don’t want to do what god says, or what anybody else says. It’s prove that your god actually exists then we’ll talk about what he wants. Also, homosexuality is ubiquitous throughout nature.
We are not animals as we are made in the image of God. We don't take our morality from animals as there are a number of things animals do that we would not find acceptable. For example, when a rival lion takes over a tribe, it will often kill the cubs of the previous male lion. We would consider this murder if a man remarried and killed the stepchildren. The other problem is if we are the same as animals, why is it that only humans have built all this amazing technology and innovation? What makes us fundamentally different is that man will observe the world and get ideas on how to improve life and put the ideas into action. Ex. the inventor of velcro got the idea after seeing burrs stuck to his socks while hiking one day. In contrast, animals largely accept things as they are. They don't think I am cold so let me build a fire or develop a heating system for the winter. Their response is limited largely to accepting the circumstances.
OldHickory12 so I can’t publicly reply to your message and my old reply isn’t there anymore...interesting. Seems like you think your argument is only valid if you stifle speech from the opposing party. You’re wrong. We are animals, therefore, we get our morals from animals. Evolution is one the most “evidence backed” theories there is. To correct your reply, we don’t take our moralities from lions, not because we are animals (we are), but because they are lions, not humans. This isn’t a hard concept to grasp. You don’t accept evolution because your religion doesn’t allow you to, not because you weighed the evidence and used critical thinking in order to reject it. That’s dishonest.
If god created man and woman, then he also determined how much sex drive humans generally should have. If the goal was to for us to have sex for the sole purpose of procreation, it was bad planning that he made sex about 1000 times more pleasurable than it needed to be for that purpose.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with 2 consulting adults of the same gender being in a relationship with one another as far as I can see. Here in the UK it's generally accepted as being absolutely ok. I don't regard it as sinful or wrong in anyway whatsoever.
@@twelvedozen5075 Working out a moral system is not hard to do. Look what humans are capable of doing.. we've done unbelievable things as a species. Working out that killing and rape are wrong are relatively easy in comparison to lets say manned flight, or complex mathematics, especially as we've had tens of thousands of years as homo sapiens to figure out a decent moral system to live by.
@@bmlsb That is not a reason for something to be wrong my friend. There is absolutely no chance that humanity is going to go extinct in the near future as humans seem to have an insatiable passion for all types of sex, the world population is exploding exponentially which, as we speak is causing untold problems for the planet. We are reproducing at levels that the planet cannot cope with, natural resources are becoming rarer and rarer.. population explosion is causing our climate to rise and that is a far greater threat to humanity than whether someone is gay. ..that is a scientific fact.
Most people will try hard to find ways to justify their sins rather than finding truth, good ethics, and morality.
Most people are still in the jungle preocupied with genitals.
I’m happy you’ve gone back to the old format too. I like all the debating up front with Cliffe giving a mini sermon at the end.
I agree as well, more time with the crowd witnessing is both helpful and good to see.
Gosh darn cliff! Quote the CDC and what it says about the homosexual dangers and quit going in circles with these people! Your podcast is called” gimme an answer “ give one based on medical science!
@@xxJ0xx homosexual dangers? lol
@@xxJ0xx sexually transmitted diseases have been transmitted by heterosexuals as well...throughout history. Most people today with HIV are heterosexual.
But yes, as long as there is Christianity I am sure they will not allow gay people to be happy. All the judgement and condescension that comes from this religion. Many people's happiness is affected by this religion. I am much happier since my deconversion
@@xxJ0xx You mean cut off their nose and then hand them a rose so they can smell it?
The main issues with sex is people avoid two of the most important questions, what is the purpose of sex and what are the psychological, emotional and physical consequences of sexual acts.
Retweet
Not to mention the spiritual implications which a lot of people ignore.
Im always excited for a new video.
th-cam.com/video/9FGv9aOCcyU/w-d-xo.html
I have found out that most atheist don’t won’t to hear about our Bible they need believable evidence but even then that’s not enough. Cliff does a great job explaining evidence
I think you'll find many atheists have read the Bible cover to cover. That's why I'm an atheist. That's why many other atheists lost their faith.
I will change my view if presented with good evidence. But there isn't any good evidence.
I LOVE the videos where the conversations aren't broken up. Thank you!
"Obviously" Cliffe is very gifted! :D
Cliffe just tell him sexuality is sacred. It's purpose and intent was for man and woman to become one flesh, to have children and be a family. Mother and Daddy have different rolls in that union. It is natural because we know only men and women can have offspring naturally...
Cliffe is so good to what he do, on of his audience turn into an angel. 😄
🙏 Cliffe!!!!!
What a great controversial dialogue 💯👏👏 I love it. I was having the same discussion with my friends on fb. God bless
Great dialog. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Cliff thank you so much for another great message through your videos God bless you love to be able to go to your church . Brian from Ireland
Hi Cliffe. God bless you. God is God. He did set rules and it's for our good. I can't say I understand the situation you're in on your evangelical direction, but I do pray for you Time to time. Don't get tired or frustrated. Most of all, don't get afraid. God said it, and we follow. The gay arguing guy almost made you change tone there. Don't allow people who are loud in the physical but quiet in the spirit intimidated you. They do come in strongly and you're unbelievably gracious in your handlings of those issue. God bless you big brother in Christ.
Whoa! At 21:00 minutes Cliffe said that it's NOT wrong to have a hateful thought but it's a matter of what you do with that hateful thought. However 1 John 3:15 says that if you hate someone then that makes you a murderer at heart. You don't have to act upon the hate and actually physically hurt the person to hate someone and to have that thought is wrong. Would he say the same for lust? That it's NOT wrong to lust after women as long as you aren't acting upon it physically and sexually? He also said that it's not wrong to be gay. The problem is that those desires, thoughts, feelings and inclinitions are still contrary to God, they still miss the mark and do not glorify God, it doesn't matter if you act upon them or not. God sees our thought life!
Hating someone is different from having a hateful thought. Hating someone is feeding/continuing the hateful thought process. It's whether you feed it or not. If a hateful thought comes up and you feed it into hating that person that is a sin. Same thing with lust. Lusting after someone is different than having a lustful thought for a moment. As a Christian, I would ask the Lord to keep me from being seduced by that thought and apologizing for having that reaction.
Correct.
@@michaelbabbitt3837 You said that lusting after someone is different than having a lustful thought for a moment. But is it!?? When you have a lustful thought towards a girl what are you doing in that moment......lusting after someone! Either way, lusting after someone as you say and having a lusting thought for a moment are both wrong. Are you trying to justify or say that one is ok? Cliffe's point was that it's not wrong to have a hateful thought and if we were to follow his logic then it would also mean that having a lustful thought for a moment is also not wrong. But having a lustful thought is long regardless of the duration.
You said that hating someone is different than having a hateful thought. But what if the hateful thought that you have in your head is that you hate that person? I don't know that hating someone means continuing to hate them or the hateful thought process. You can hate someone for a time then repent and move on.
I don't know if this is semantics, if he explained it really poorly or if he doesn't see any of these things as wrong or what...
@@michaelbabbitt3837 As an atheist I have a completely different thought pattern regarding lust. I think it's absolutely fine to lust and it's something that every single healthy person on the planet does. It's when you are told by ancient religious scriptures that its wrong and you believe that, that's when it becomes problematic. I desire and admire sexy women everyday, i see it as one of life's free pleasures.
If you sat opposite a truly gorgeous female on a long train journey, and she had the most beautiful eyes, and a fantastic body, what man in his right mind would not fantasize about her?. It would take great powers of concentration to not think about her.. and what a waste. Any man who claims he wouldn't fantasize about her I would call him a liar, or maybe gay. As I said, looking at attractive looking people is one of life's free pleasures in my book, I have no shame or guilt or a need to try and block those images out of my mind for fear of offending God.
"Mind is a terrible thing to waste".
Merry Christmas to all💯💯🙏🏾🌲
Wow, phenomenal conversation by both.
Funny, I think this will be more controversial with some more legalistic Christians than it will with non.
The guy just admitted that he wants to live life the way he wants to so don’t blame god if u go to hell blame yourself because u wanted to do it your way
Exactly! Sheer, unadulterated defiance and rebellion.
I mean no disrespect to anyone claiming to be an atheist. I mean this with the highest respect. Whenever i hear someone try to justify any kind of morality, apart from God, IT. JUST. DOESN'T. WORK., not For me.
It seems like they certainly do have an answer to why they believe something is right/wrong. The one i hear most often is that society determines such things. And if you go against what the majority says, there's consequences. My response is "so what?"
Where is it written that it's wrong to do such & such? Oh, because a group of people say so? Why do i care about what they say?? I don't. You're a man, no different than me. Who are you to tell me what i can and can't do?
Yes i know there are certain things that i wouldn't want people to do to me, I'm sorry but that's not reason enough for me to not do those things to you.
In a world with no God i would not be the same person i am now. I recognize the value of other human beings who are also made in the image of God.
Perhaps in a totally atheistic world there may even be far less crime. Whatever. you Still can't tell me not to do, whatever it is i feel like doing.
That's my take. God bless
I'm going to be extremely honest with you here John, you could well be right, in fact, I am sure you are but what you have stated here is basically a good reason to HOPE that a God exists rather than a reason to be sure one does ACTUALLY exist. What you say also leaves me wanting to believe there is a God so I can feel like there is a point to life and a moral compass to follow, I hear you there, but it gives me nothing to decide for sure that he really does exist other than wishing that he did.
I accept that if God doesn't exist and we knew for sure he didn't exist then, as human beings, there would be no higher authority to appeal to other than ourselves as human beings and the people who we appoint to be our authority like governments, the Police, etc. As you said, in some situations, I might say what I think is right and you might say what you think is right, and if we disagree then there is no decider other than that authority I mentioned or the majority but as you said, there would be nothing to stop you from defying the authorities or the majority, it's not like they have divine power or anything.
So yes, I share your sentiment there, having a God or at least believing in a God would help us in that way to have a better sense of having someone or something higher and more powerful than us to look up to....yaaaay...I'd like nothing better. The big problem is it doesn't mean that a God DOES actually exist though. There are many things I would HOPE are true, it doesn't mean they actually are. Wouldn't you much rather know for SURE that something is true rather than hope it is true just because it gives you a sense of ultimate morality and you see no ultimate morality if it isn't?
@@JohnCashin I disagree. The fact that we even apprehend objective morals points to an objective standard above and beyond ourselves. And moral only pertains to persons. So, it is rational to conclude that there is a personal God.
@@drew2fast489 That's not what I said. You're disagreeing with something that is separate from the point I was making in response to John Soto. What I said was that I agree with John Soto when he says that without a God or belief in a God, we would only have ourselves to decide what is right and what is wrong which would be chaotic (a bit like the world is) and therefore having a God or a belief in a God/Higher Authority is more desirable than atheism in that sense because it gives us all a quick 'tie breaker', the big deciding factor, if you like, when it comes to morality, eg "I say X, you say Y, God the highest authority of all says B....B it is...end of...whereas if neither of us believed in God, we would be spending all day arguing over it and getting nowhere, so it gives us an incentive to want to believe that a God exists. Whether or not a God does exist is another matter which is separate from whether or not believing in God has any benefit. That was my point.
Great post John. This is the simplest explanation of objective/subjective morality I''ve heard in the 3 years since coming to Jesus👍
@@JohnCashin Hey John Cashin. I just want to reply to what you said about how having a higher power as a moral compass would be a good thing but that it doesn't necessarily prove that God exists.
I mean, how does a person know anything? By observation. How do we observe stuff? Through our sight. Our smell. By hearing. Can we only know something is true through science?
The bible talks about our spirit and that the spirit of man died in the garden of Eden when we chose to serve ourselves rather than the one who created us. And since we have died in our spirit we can no longer hear (observe) God. This is why Christ said we must be born again. This is also why we cannot prove God's existence by means of science, etc. Because the only way to connect with God is in spirit.
No i do not have proof a spirit exists. But i am convinced in my own mind. And i would say that so is everyone else who has placed their faith in Christ Jesus.
I used to be angry that i wasn't born with more intelligence, strength, better looks, etc. But now i see that the Lord uses my weaknesses to reveal his strength. And as i continue to place my faith in him, he continues to reveal more and more of himself to me, and to others through me.
So i would say i have plenty of evidence to believe God exists but that it is all internal, which is then manifested externally through my actions.
God bless. PEACE
Rationalise ANYTHING however you want, there are some things that are right and some things that are wrong and we will be judged accordingly.
It just is.
We will all find out one day. God is the ultimate judge.
th-cam.com/video/9FGv9aOCcyU/w-d-xo.html
Hope this helps 👍
Don't believe there is a god to judge
Isanna *read original comment
Can you demonstrate that anything you say here "just is"?
There's nothing wrong with noticing beautiful people. It is what you do with that thought that matters. I don't think I have ever lusted maybe when I was younger. I have been married more than once which isn't the way I wanted it to be but they were horribly abusive. I missed out on having children and sex is the last thing on my list when it comes to marriage now that I can no longer procreate. Lots and lots of things come before sex on my list for a relationship.
God bless you. John 1 - ዮሃንስ
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Thank you!
It's fascinating how soany ppl can't see why hook up culture is bad
When the evidence is all around ...
Abortions, single moms, unable to pair bond, etc
There are two big reasons why men should not have multitudes of partners, until he finally comes across a woman he feels he wants to marry: 1/ We begin to find in different woman, different "tastes" within the sexual performance of different woman, and 2/ you begin to build up a tolerance for different women!
1/ Because you have the ability from #1 to remember who those VERY BEST PERFORMERS among your conquests were, and too, what their individual successes were so far as you're concerned, and after you are married, you begin to place faces and think of THEIR performances, it is likely because of your many women when younger, it make take two years for the BAD STUFF to come to fruition in your married life, but because you have a #2, a tolerance for more than one women for the rest of your life, and because you've experienced far too many women, and their performances, you herein, have another reason to become an adulterer on your husband or wife! This is absolutely correct, which sadly, I have the ability to attest to from my own life!
I am not a young man these days, but am going back a fairly long way, to bring forth these points! Marriage is a most beautiful institution and nothing can beat the FAMILY LIFE! Those with many partners before marriage, has undermined your marriage maybe decades before you've finally said "I do!"
SPIRITUALLY: Scripture tells us: "15: Know ye not that your bodies are the members [Body Temples] of Messiah? shall I then take the members of Messiah, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16: What? KNOW YE NOT THAT HE WHICH IS JOINED TO AN HARLOT IS ONE BODY? FOR TWO, SAITH HE, SHALL BE ONE FLESH. 17: But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit [Has the mind of Messiah indwelling the Body Temple]. 18: FLEE FORNICATION. Every sin that a man doe[s] is without/[outside] the body; but he that commit[s] fornication sin[s] against his own body. 19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [The indwelling mind of Messiah; See 1Cor. 2: 14 - 16, KJV] which is in you, which ye have of El, and YOU ARE NOT YOUR OWN? 20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify El in your body, and in your spirit, which are El's" (1Corinthians 6: 15 - 20, KJV. emphasis, Name changes, and inserts in brackets, mine).
So in short when we grow up.
Are these videos from a previous date or is Cliff currently still doing these excellent talks?
they're still going on, usually he has these convos at UT for 3 days one week in November each year.
Man that dude in the glasses got obliterated by Cliffe. It was like watching Iron Mike box a pillow fight champion.
They had a conversation violent christian practice what u preach.
Exactly what justice is there in a religion that says this:
1. If you are a person who takes care of their mother, fosters 3 children and gives to the poor you go to hell because you aren't a Christian.
2. But if you are a lifelong child rapist and accept Christ 4 days before you die at 73 years old you are rewarded in heaven
And you say there is justice in this religion? Better justice in the real world
👍👍👍
Correction ,The best argument for atheism is simply we don't believe you have proven christianity true. Some atheist are chaste or don't have excessive sex.
Did the young man say that Cliff is not sure that God exists?! Then what's the point of you being there convincing people to Jesus? Of course God exists because we have a personal relationship with him, which proves enough for our ownselves. Never tell people that you're not sure if God exists or not, that defeats the purpose of evangelism!
One thing i dis agree with Cliffe with is he say he isn't 100% sure God excist .bro no one born gay thats the life style we choose.
The French word for lust is convoîtise which means the desire or want to have and own anything or anyone that does not belong to us or to which we have no rightful access. It is related to the English word covetousness.
That one in the angel costume is a bit disgusting to me.
Time to grow....it is all inside your mind, it is only but a costume.
Yes, it's because God says so. Murder is wrong because God tells us so. Stealing is wrong because God says so. Without God none of these things are wrong or right.
Nope , with a level of consciousness and inteligence those things are obvious.
@@ericscaillet2232 where does consciousness come from? Is every single person's the same?
@@jelly7310 yes. But, one can ignore their conscience and rationalize whatever they want
@@knxcholx agreed
@@jelly7310 that's the point Cliffe makes in almost every video
Also I did not like the movie crash.
Seems the most important thing in American society is LGBT rights
Yeah seems like sadly, and not the EX-LGBT, EX-ADULTERER, EX-FORNICATOR,EX-Etceteras rights.
Why is someone's sexuality an issue of identity and rights to begin with? Who cares? It seems to me there is an agenda to get people to focus on sexuality. There are so many other relevant and important topics to focus on.
@@twelvedozen5075 - Why is someone that opposes that lifestyle any concern of anyone' s ??, see Indiana Religious Freedom Bill , and GA HB 757 , or even the non-sense that the CHRISTIAN baker had to go through .
WISHBONEL7 Was that my question?
WISHBONEL7 What connection are you making to a thereat of "national security"?
Did he just agree that he isn't sure if Jesus was real??????
Listen, if God created man in His own image then it is safe to say that He did not create us with sexual desires, as it would mean that God has sexual desires and we know that would be a contradiction.
No, God doesn't have sexual desires, these came the moment sin entered the world, as it is written James 2Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
This means that it wasn't until sin entered that it became shameful to see a naked body Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Why hide their nakedness? Shame!
Ayo, what? You're not making sense. How on earth would Adam and Eve been able to procreate if they weren't created with reproductive organs?
What's up with the dislikes? Trolls.
I believe sex was for one reason and one reason alone, to procreate but what man has resorted to was a perversion of God's purpose.
God says okay but you will have to follow rules and that is to be married to one woman and one man, a husband and a wife.
You'll say well, what about the sensation that is felt when taking part in the sexual act? Then I will have to say that this is a biproduct of sin. Just like I believe that women weren't to have painful childbirth, as it is writtenGenesis 3:16
“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children...
And I guess we purposelly forget about all the other warm blooded species.what a lot we are.
@@ericscaillet2232 What’s your point?
Being gay is not a sin, and the Bible doesn't say that it is.
1GodOnlyOne sodomy by anyone is pure evil sin!
I'm sure Jesus said even THINKING about a woman it's like committing adultery with her within your heart.
So what your thinking does matter.
He actually specified that it was looking upon a woman to _lust after her_ causes one to already commit adultery with her in one's heart.
@@hotice8885 is this ray comfort?😂😂
@@Dami-dm5sj , it is actually JESUS that said that: Matthew 5:28
Didn't God create the loneliness in the first place?
idk, the whole creation of Eve seems to contradict that thought lol
He doesn't answer the question about homosexuality directly because he's homophobic.
He uses the bible to justify his bigotry, and that is what is wrong with religion.
So you think there are moral wrongs, just no sexual immorality?
@jasonmitchell7550 There are a lot of things that are sexually immoral. Paedophilia, rape, incest, adultery.
Being gay is not immoral. Sex between consenting adults is not immoral.
Being bigoted and homophobic however, seems to be a feature of many religions. Disguising it with the Bible and pretending you're not homophobic is a neat trick but I hope people aren't fooled by it.
@@fishjj76 How about polygamy/polyamory? Is bestiality wrong if the animal isn’t hurt? Is incest wrong if the woman is infertile?
@jasonmitchell7550 Again I make the point that being gay is not immoral. Being homophobic is. What's your point. Stop wasting my time and put your argument in writing.
@@fishjj76 Do you know there are groups that would call you a bigot for saying pedophilia is immoral?
It amazes me that so many people think that some guy, who calls himself a preacher, is worth standing around bouncing questions off him.....or thinking that there is "a god" the preacher speaks for.
If you really believed this, you wouldn't have bothered to watch the video and post about it in the comments. What you are really concerned about deep down is that your atheistic belief could be wrong and so are lashing out to feel better about yourself. But instead of running from that feeling of conviction, you should think more deeply about these things.
@@ServingChrist "If you really believed this, you wouldn't have bothered to watch the video and post about it in the comments."
Why not? I made a valid comment. I don't know why people would just stand there and listen to a guy just because he is a "preacher". It's not like he has any authority in his words.
"What you are really concerned about deep down is that your atheistic belief could be wrong and so are lashing out to feel better about yourself."
Okay,...so you claim to know what I'm "really concerned about down deep"? I'm MORE concerned that people accept "god claims" which don't have credible evidence. And as for my comment, I really don't see how you consider it as "lashing out". I made an observation.
"But instead of running from that feeling of conviction, you should think more deeply about these things."
So, no....I have no "feeling of conviction". You don't know me or what I'm about, so I understand that you must use your faith belief to place me in a specific box.
@@dlmusicproduction3132 Your actions give you away. If you didn't have an interest in these things, you wouldn't be here. You would be doing other things that you do have an interest in. It is ok to admit you are interested whether you are Christian or atheist or agnostic. These are things people should think about.
@@ServingChrist What do you mean "my actions give me away"? I told you why I'm here. Why do you attempt to make it SEEM like you caught me in something?? :-/
And then you say, "It is ok to admit you are interested whether you are Christian or atheist or agnostic."
I'm an agnostic atheist. There is no "interest in whether I am Christian" because that is not going to be the case. See, again, you make it appear that YOU know me more than you actually do. WHY? What is the purpose of these false claims?? O_o
@@dlmusicproduction3132 There is no reason for you to be here watching this video unless you have a curiosity about the content. That is why I say your actions give you away. Your interest was piqued by the content which is why you watched the video instead of doing laundry, watching a ball game or really anything else. At some level, you were curious and wanted to know what the preacher had to say. I think it is humorous that you can't acknowledge this. It is ok to admit you were curious. You can still go on being an agnostic atheist. It is actually a good thing you were curious and wanted to think about things more deeply. You shouldn't view it as something to be ashamed of that you need to hide.
Cliffe says if there is no God, it doesn't matter if you have sex with men, women or a golden retriever, he says it's all personal choice.. ( if there is no God). I don't know of any atheist who would say bestiality is acceptable, you would be violating an animal that has not given it's consent to have sex with you. Cliffe seems to think that if you are an atheist, you are also a moral relatavist..I don't know of any atheist who thinks whatever they prefer is ok. We all have rules to live by, I can't go into a shop and help myself to the cash register if I'm short of money. I would say that Atheism and Moral relativism are 2 separate things.. I've *never* seen any dictionary/thesaurus that describes atheism as anything to do with moral relativism.
bonnie43uk What standard do you base your moral decisions on?
@@twelvedozen5075 My moral standards were given to me by primarily my parents and those around me growing up in a civilized society, that's how all of us begin to understand what is right and wrong/good and bad.. some of the things we get told are good and bad can be subject to change by that society if it can be shown to be beneficial or harmful to society.. i can give you various examples if you wish... we are the makers of the rules we wish to follow, not God...we don't burn people alive these days, it's not acceptable as it was a few hundred years ago, nor do we criminalize homosexuality as we did only a few decades ago. We've figured this stuff out for ourselves using rationale and reason.
bonnie43uk So you have moral presences. It follows that other people can have moral preferences that diametrically oppose yours. But since there are no objective morals, neither preference is right or wrong.
@@twelvedozen5075 I don't believe that to be the case, if someone has a diametrically opposite view to me..( and clearly you do, which is fine so long as it's not hurting others), I can give you rational reasons why I believe I am right and why it's beneficial for society, the proof is in the pudding as they say. This is how societies learn and grow, improving as each generation learns more. How many moral objectives are there?, how many can you name? We can probably agree on quite a few things that we believe to be moral and immoral, and I'm sure there are some we would not agree on.
Anyhoo, it's my bedtime now, it'll be good to hear your comments, I'll try and respond tomorrow :-)
@@bonnie43uk If there is only ONE thing objectively wrong then God exists - we don't need a whole list. Re your societies "growing" and "improving" theory, well, we're one push of a button away from WW3. Surrender to Christ and come back home Tom.
If Cliffe thinks the best argument for not believing in his supernatural worldview is that non-belief gives more sexual freedom....then he is so deep in his model that he has lost all ability to understand other views.
Still doing this after the Matt Dillahunty debate, huh? And the best atheist argument for homosexuality is not that we don’t want to do what god says, or what anybody else says. It’s prove that your god actually exists then we’ll talk about what he wants. Also, homosexuality is ubiquitous throughout nature.
We are not animals as we are made in the image of God. We don't take our morality from animals as there are a number of things animals do that we would not find acceptable. For example, when a rival lion takes over a tribe, it will often kill the cubs of the previous male lion. We would consider this murder if a man remarried and killed the stepchildren. The other problem is if we are the same as animals, why is it that only humans have built all this amazing technology and innovation? What makes us fundamentally different is that man will observe the world and get ideas on how to improve life and put the ideas into action. Ex. the inventor of velcro got the idea after seeing burrs stuck to his socks while hiking one day.
In contrast, animals largely accept things as they are. They don't think I am cold so let me build a fire or develop a heating system for the winter. Their response is limited largely to accepting the circumstances.
OldHickory12 so I can’t publicly reply to your message and my old reply isn’t there anymore...interesting. Seems like you think your argument is only valid if you stifle speech from the opposing party. You’re wrong. We are animals, therefore, we get our morals from animals. Evolution is one the most “evidence backed” theories there is. To correct your reply, we don’t take our moralities from lions, not because we are animals (we are), but because they are lions, not humans. This isn’t a hard concept to grasp. You don’t accept evolution because your religion doesn’t allow you to, not because you weighed the evidence and used critical thinking in order to reject it. That’s dishonest.
OldHickory12 my apologies. It is a public reply. Disregard the first part of my reply.
@@ServingChrist funny how warm blooded animals are build just like us...
@@ericscaillet2232 Yeah almost like they had the same Creator.
If god created man and woman, then he also determined how much sex drive humans generally should have. If the goal was to for us to have sex for the sole purpose of procreation, it was bad planning that he made sex about 1000 times more pleasurable than it needed to be for that purpose.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with 2 consulting adults of the same gender being in a relationship with one another as far as I can see. Here in the UK it's generally accepted as being absolutely ok. I don't regard it as sinful or wrong in anyway whatsoever.
bonnie43uk What moral standard do you base your decisions on?
@@twelvedozen5075 Working out a moral system is not hard to do. Look what humans are capable of doing.. we've done unbelievable things as a species. Working out that killing and rape are wrong are relatively easy in comparison to lets say manned flight, or complex mathematics, especially as we've had tens of thousands of years as homo sapiens to figure out a decent moral system to live by.
@@bmlsb I think you'll find it is natural and common in the animal kingdom.
@@bonnie43uk If all humanity was gay, All humanity would end. No one would reproduce..that is a scientific fact...
@@bmlsb That is not a reason for something to be wrong my friend. There is absolutely no chance that humanity is going to go extinct in the near future as humans seem to have an insatiable passion for all types of sex, the world population is exploding exponentially which, as we speak is causing untold problems for the planet. We are reproducing at levels that the planet cannot cope with, natural resources are becoming rarer and rarer.. population explosion is causing our climate to rise and that is a far greater threat to humanity than whether someone is gay. ..that is a scientific fact.