Hey! It's me, Aura, I just saw this video, and I think I can share some more things with you on Discord. For what it's worth, you're not the only one to notice guidelines #5 or #8, as I've noticed those too.
Excellent information! Thank you for this. I'd just like to offer a caveat or exception to Guideline #3: No Back and Forth. I have found that using a pedal tone (droning, pulsing, or more rhythmically complicated) works well even when the in-between notes are in the opposite twelve-tone frame. For example (taking enharmonic liberties with naming for clarity): A3 [A2 A2] A3 [A2 A2] A3 [A2] Ab3 [A2 A2] Ab3 [A2 A2] Ab3 [A2] Gd3 [A2 A2] Gd3 [A2 A2] A3 [A2] Gdb3 [A2 A2] Gdb3 [A2 A2] Gdb3 [A2] (etc.) Those G 1/4 and 3/4 flats are in the opposite frame from the pedal tone, but bouncing back and forth between them sounds okay to me. I know these are "just guidelines," of course, but I thought this could be a useful technique for someone. Anyway, thanks again for another great video!
Yes, these are just guidelines and nothing is always necessary. It's more a matter of using enough of them to sound good. In the case of pedal tones I assume they are bass notes and guideline #2 (prefer lower pitches) is a very strong one and often enough all by itself. Is there any way to listen to the examples you're talking about?
@@quartertoneharmony7100 I just made a Soundcloud account to post this as an example (I don't really know of a more convenient way offhand): soundcloud.com/cortaigne-gmail-com/24-germanium-test
@@quartertoneharmony7100 I actually use pedal tones in the higher register in some variants of the Simul cadence- I've posted the examples of these on Discord in DM.
Certainly timbre makes a difference; quartertone steps sound much better in some instruments (like the clarinet) than others (the piano). And, yes, sometimes the sound file makes a difference. But I think that's largely independent of pitch; I notice the effect of pitch in basically all instruments.
About 2 years of actually working on it. I had thought about it occasionally for a lot longer than that - about 30 years - but when I actually started writing things and listening to them I found my earlier expectations were mostly wrong.
#1 gives the ranking of step sizes; #11 gives (relatively) good targets within a key. In C the blue note targets would be E-, F+, G-, and B-. So C to E- would be seven quarter tones to a blue note and good by both; C to B- would be three quarter tones to a blue note, so rough by #1 and smooth by #11, and C to D- would be 3 quarter tones to a non-blue note and rough by both.
@@quartertoneharmony7100 I guess this isolates the t4 (Ft in the key of C) as perhaps one of the better options, seeing as it's a blue note and its only medium-rough by the standards of #1, though perhaps it can be better approached downwards from a natural 6 since the natural 6 forms a neutral third with the t4.
I find t4 is a very useful note for pivoting; it's a blue note, the base of the XI harmonic and a minor 3rd for IX ,it's one quartertone up from the fourth degree (F in key of C), seven up from the second degree, and in a major scale 7 down from the sixth degree (A in key of C). That said, I find -5 similarly or even more useful; it's also a blue note, base of XII, minor third for X, plus fifth of XV, one quartertone down from the fifth degree (a preferable.direction), and 7 quarter tones up from the third degree in minor.
@@quartertoneharmony7100 It's true that d5 is similarly useful to t4, however, I think I should point out that the directional preference for how to approach quartertones seems to be conditioned on how you build your tonality as well as how closely a given tuning follows the harmonic or subharmonic series. If you build tonality from the bass-up, then going down generally works better, with going up generally working for following the harmonic series, but building it from the treble-down makes going up work better with going down working more for following the subharmonic series. Regarding chords built on the dV, I find it harder build such chords and stay relatively in-key when I'm working in Major, but, oddly, I find that I can use chords built on tV in Major instead, as it is easily approached from the third degree in major, and how you construct the chord is more flexible. Oddly, enough, chords built on tV even seem to have something similar to a dominant effect, though not quite the same since it depends on a diminished fourth rather than a major third, and the voice-leading is different.
What you provide is a noise and distortion and not a music. When you start to talk about quarter tones, you should talk about their modes related, and not throughing chromatic 24-tet notes higgledy-piggledy. In western 12-tet you basically use: major(1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2), minor(1-1/2-1-1-1/2-1-1), phrygian(1/2-1-1-1-1/2-1-1), harmonic(1/2-3/2-1/2-1-1/2-1-1) and their derivations. So also in 24-tet you must respect their related modes and compose based on them. You can inspire for exemple from arab music culture in order to use the quarter tones: th-cam.com/video/Rk8mY1cxKNI/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/UbwsCHAZM9E/w-d-xo.html
thanks for all these tips, that was very useful!!!
Glad it was helpful!
Hey! It's me, Aura, I just saw this video, and I think I can share some more things with you on Discord. For what it's worth, you're not the only one to notice guidelines #5 or #8, as I've noticed those too.
great stuff, lots of potential for new musical ideas
Excellent information! Thank you for this. I'd just like to offer a caveat or exception to Guideline #3: No Back and Forth. I have found that using a pedal tone (droning, pulsing, or more rhythmically complicated) works well even when the in-between notes are in the opposite twelve-tone frame.
For example (taking enharmonic liberties with naming for clarity):
A3 [A2 A2] A3 [A2 A2] A3 [A2]
Ab3 [A2 A2] Ab3 [A2 A2] Ab3 [A2]
Gd3 [A2 A2] Gd3 [A2 A2] A3 [A2]
Gdb3 [A2 A2] Gdb3 [A2 A2] Gdb3 [A2]
(etc.)
Those G 1/4 and 3/4 flats are in the opposite frame from the pedal tone, but bouncing back and forth between them sounds okay to me.
I know these are "just guidelines," of course, but I thought this could be a useful technique for someone.
Anyway, thanks again for another great video!
Yes, these are just guidelines and nothing is always necessary. It's more a matter of using enough of them to sound good. In the case of pedal tones I assume they are bass notes and guideline #2 (prefer lower pitches) is a very strong one and often enough all by itself.
Is there any way to listen to the examples you're talking about?
@@quartertoneharmony7100 I just made a Soundcloud account to post this as an example (I don't really know of a more convenient way offhand): soundcloud.com/cortaigne-gmail-com/24-germanium-test
@@quartertoneharmony7100 I actually use pedal tones in the higher register in some variants of the Simul cadence- I've posted the examples of these on Discord in DM.
Could guide 2 be because of the midi sounds? I can imagine a universe where the melody is bowed less harshly and it sounds more pleasant.
Certainly timbre makes a difference; quartertone steps sound much better in some instruments (like the clarinet) than others (the piano). And, yes, sometimes the sound file makes a difference. But I think that's largely independent of pitch; I notice the effect of pitch in basically all instruments.
Link to a video discussing the most common bent blues notes: th-cam.com/video/NVWX10c0bNc/w-d-xo.html
How long did it take you to reach this level of understanding of quartertonal harmony?
About 2 years of actually working on it. I had thought about it occasionally for a lot longer than that - about 30 years - but when I actually started writing things and listening to them I found my earlier expectations were mostly wrong.
Forgive me for commenting again so soon, but how do guidelines #1 and #11 interact?
#1 gives the ranking of step sizes; #11 gives (relatively) good targets within a key. In C the blue note targets would be E-, F+, G-, and B-. So C to E- would be seven quarter tones to a blue note and good by both; C to B- would be three quarter tones to a blue note, so rough by #1 and smooth by #11, and C to D- would be 3 quarter tones to a non-blue note and rough by both.
@@quartertoneharmony7100 I guess this isolates the t4 (Ft in the key of C) as perhaps one of the better options, seeing as it's a blue note and its only medium-rough by the standards of #1, though perhaps it can be better approached downwards from a natural 6 since the natural 6 forms a neutral third with the t4.
I find t4 is a very useful note for pivoting; it's a blue note, the base of the XI harmonic and a minor 3rd for IX ,it's one quartertone up from the fourth degree (F in key of C), seven up from the second degree, and in a major scale 7 down from the sixth degree (A in key of C). That said, I find -5 similarly or even more useful; it's also a blue note, base of XII, minor third for X, plus fifth of XV, one quartertone down from the fifth degree (a preferable.direction), and 7 quarter tones up from the third degree in minor.
@@quartertoneharmony7100 It's true that d5 is similarly useful to t4, however, I think I should point out that the directional preference for how to approach quartertones seems to be conditioned on how you build your tonality as well as how closely a given tuning follows the harmonic or subharmonic series. If you build tonality from the bass-up, then going down generally works better, with going up generally working for following the harmonic series, but building it from the treble-down makes going up work better with going down working more for following the subharmonic series. Regarding chords built on the dV, I find it harder build such chords and stay relatively in-key when I'm working in Major, but, oddly, I find that I can use chords built on tV in Major instead, as it is easily approached from the third degree in major, and how you construct the chord is more flexible. Oddly, enough, chords built on tV even seem to have something similar to a dominant effect, though not quite the same since it depends on a diminished fourth rather than a major third, and the voice-leading is different.
Man, Just study the Arabic SCALES, like Sika, Bayati, and much more those are the guidelines to amazing melodies!!
What you provide is a noise and distortion and not a music.
When you start to talk about quarter tones, you should talk about their modes related, and not throughing chromatic 24-tet notes higgledy-piggledy.
In western 12-tet you basically use: major(1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2), minor(1-1/2-1-1-1/2-1-1), phrygian(1/2-1-1-1-1/2-1-1), harmonic(1/2-3/2-1/2-1-1/2-1-1) and their derivations.
So also in 24-tet you must respect their related modes and compose based on them.
You can inspire for exemple from arab music culture in order to use the quarter tones:
th-cam.com/video/Rk8mY1cxKNI/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/UbwsCHAZM9E/w-d-xo.html
I know about that. Music is not, and has never been, *just* about doing things that have been done before.
@@quartertoneharmony7100 Good response to a rather pretentious and narrow minded comment!